What about RACHAEL VS ZENYATTA...

[tzipi]

OH I forgot it's new world horse racing. No one faces eachother.

BIG BROWN VS CURLIN...Oopps I forgot. That would've been bad for the sport and owners don't want to lose face these days.

ZEN VS RACH...oops I forgot two different surfaces created gaps in competition now. Why Zen wouldn't go East and why Rach wouldn't go West.

And it shall go on in todays new world of racing!

Breeding money also at fault. Someone loses might bring down worth. Crappy new world racing

[Cadillakin]

ZEN VS RACH...oops I forgot two different surfaces created gaps in competition now. Why Zen wouldn't go East and why Rach wouldn't go West.

So there is no misunderstanding... Zenyatta - as an older mare could not enter into any of the restricted 3 year old races that Rachel Alexandra entered and won. So, it's not that Zenyatta's connections had the option to race against Rachel - they couldn't - until Rachel entered the Woodward and left the restricted ranks.

By the time of the Woodward in early September, Zenyattas schedule was already set. She was to prep for the Breeders Cup in the Ladies Secret at the beginning of October. I think those of you who didn't know how good Zenyatta was can now recognize that the Moss's weren't ducking Rachel.. A race against Rachel just didn't fit the schedule they mapped out to get to the Breeders Cup races.

[Show Me the Wire]

So there is no misunderstanding... Zenyatta - as an older mare could not enter into any of the restricted 3 year old races that Rachel Alexandra entered and won. So, it's not that Zenyatta's connections had the option to race against Rachel - they couldn't - until Rachel entered the Woodward and left the restricted ranks.

By the time of the Woodward in early September, Zenyattas schedule was already set. She was to prep for the Breeders Cup in the Ladies Secret at the beginning of October. I think those of you who didn't know how good Zenyatta was can now recognize that the Moss's weren't ducking Rachel.. A race against Rachel just didn't fit the schedule they mapped out to get to the Breeders Cup races.

Sometimes the obvious has to be stated. Good post.

[tzipi]

So there is no misunderstanding... Zenyatta - as an older mare could not enter into any of the restricted 3 year old races that Rachel Alexandra entered and won. So, it's not that Zenyatta's connections had the option to race against Rachel - they couldn't - until Rachel entered the Woodward and left the restricted ranks.

By the time of the Woodward in early September, Zenyattas schedule was already set. She was to prep for the Breeders Cup in the Ladies Secret at the beginning of October. I think those of you who didn't know how good Zenyatta was can now recognize that the Moss's weren't ducking Rachel.. A race against Rachel just didn't fit the schedule they mapped out to get to the Breeders Cup races.

Oh would you give it a rest. ZEN could've run in JCGC if they wanted. They could've went for proposed match up at Belmont. I was talking about SURFACE differences now creating a gap. "So your saying" What??? NO there was plenty of races for them to both run in EAST AND WEST since MAY.
"A race against Rach didn't fit sked". Please,she was tops after Preakness back in MAY. Plenty of time for them to both get together.

This posty was all about breeding and competition staying in their zones and owners just into money with breeding and titles,etc,and you make it a Zen thing! Tells me alot if you're mad about something to go off it's premise. Jesus Get over it,you lost.

[tzipi]

Sometimes the obvious has to be stated. Good post.

Yeah just like you saying that Raven Pass's owner and trainer passed on a dirt race with Curlin because they would've stood no chance. Good job,like all of a sudden you were in the barn with them. It said its write-ups they weren't sure he would be best so they would've gone somewhere else on surface they KNEW he could handle. They NEVER said RAVEN'S PASS would lose on dirt.

[Show Me the Wire]

Yeah just like you saying that Raven Pass's owner and trainer passed on a dirt race with Curlin because they would've stood no chance. Good job,like all of a sudden you were in the barn with them. It said its write-ups they weren't sure he would be best so they would've gone somewhere else on surface they KNEW he could handle. They NEVER said RAVEN'S PASS would lose.

What do you think "KNEW he could handle" means"? If the connections knew he couldn't handle (be at his best) dirt than logically Raven Pass would have no chance against Curlin.

It is not about being in the barn with the connections it is about logic.

Geesh, you are arguing against your own posting. If the race was on dirt, "they would've gone somewhere else on surface they KNEW he could handle." If they went somewhere else they would have been ducking Curlin on the dirt.

[tzipi]

What do you think "KNEW he could handle" means"? If the connections knew he couldn't handle (be at his best) dirt than logically Raven Pass would have no chance against Curlin.

It is not about being in the barn with the connections it is about logic.

Geesh, you are arguing against your own posting. If the race was on dirt, "they would've gone somewhere else on surface they KNEW he could handle." If they went somewhere else they would have been ducking Curlin on the dirt.

Oh so every horse that ran a new surface before never won?? Give it up. You never even knew they said till it was brought up in this forum.

It's not ducking anymore,when it's two different surfaces. Oh yup you know Zenyatta was running here for B.C.,if it was here this year on dirt. Give me a break!

Also the post was about top racing match-ups not happening because of multiple surfaces now,breeding money,titles,etc and responses came back yelling ZEN,ZEN. It was about racing as a whole over last 2 decades. If your crying about Zen goto another thread.

[Show Me the Wire]

Oh so every horse that ran a new surface before never won?? Give it up. You never even knew they said till it was brought up in this forum.

Also the post was about top racing match-ups not happening because of multiple surfaces now,breeding money,titles,etc and responses came back yelling ZEN,ZEN. It was about racing as a whole over last 2 decades. If your crying about Zen goto another thread.

You are making no sense. Of course racing match-ups don't happen because owners want to make the most money and protect their investments.

Racing first and foremost is a business and decisions are made based on profit motives. Your example about Raven Pass' connections demonstrates the profit motive perfectly. You try to maximize your return by placing your horse where it can win and not where it will lose.

Cadillakin made a good point and I agreed with him. Nobody is yelling Zen, Zen in this thread. At the track yes, but not in this thread.

[tzipi]

You are making no sense. Of course racing match-ups don't happen because owners want to make the most money and protect their investments.

Racing first and foremost is a business and decisions are made based on profit motives. Your example about Raven Pass' connections demonstrates the profit motive perfectly. You try to maximize your return by placing your horse where it can win and not where it will lose.

Cadillakin made a good point and I agreed with him. Nobody is yelling Zen, Zen in this thread. At the track yes, but not in this thread.


"You're making no sense" then you agree with me on what the actual post was about! I said it sucks,that was all,not that I was shocked. Read.

I said it's two different surfaces and its creates gaps! They have NO IDEA if a horse will lose,just that's it's not preferred surface. Do you know HOW MANY horses won on tracks they did not prefer first time out!

If it was all dirt,we'd know who was better right now.
Two different surfaces causing horses to be held out. Sure you would've been all over Zenyatta people if she stayed out of Belmont BC if it was here on dirt,right?

[Show Me the Wire]

"You're making no sense" then you agree with me on what the actual post was about! I said it sucks,that was all,not that I was shocked. Read.

I said it's two different surfaces and its creates gaps! They have NO IDEA if a horse will lose,just that's it's not preferred surface. Do you know HOW MANY horses won on tracks they did not prefer first time out!

If it was all dirt,we'd know who was better right now.
Two different surfaces causing horses to be held out. Sure you would've been all over Zenyatta people if she stayed out of Belmont BC if it was here on dirt,right?

Yes, I would have been all over Zenyatta's connections if they failed to show for B.C. at Belmont if they desired HOY.

Today Zenyatta would have beaten RA on any surface. I look at horses and races different than you. They got to RA's bottom in her last race and even in today's breath taking performance Mike Smith never got to Zenyatta's bottom.

[tzipi]

Yes, I would have been all over Zenyatta's connections if they failed to show for B.C. at Belmont if they desired HOY.

Today Zenyatta would have beaten RA on any surface. I look at horses and races different than you. They got to RA's bottom in her last race and even in today's breath taking performance Mike Smith never got to Zenyatta's bottom.

Ok you're right if that race was on dirt and she won today,I'd say,yeah she would've been tough to beat by anyone. NO DOUBT! But it's just a plain different surface. So many great dirt horses go there and fail on poly, Curlin amongst many,many others.

BUT to say you know for SURE Zen beats RACH on dirt is crazy. You have no idea. So you know who would've won then,Ruffian or Foolish...Holy Bull or Cigar? Cmon! We don't know.

Polyturf-Zenyataa hell tought to beat.
Dirt-Not sure,have we seen her enough on it to judge. One race way back is not enough to judge. Rach... we know what she can do on dirt.

Would I have been all over Zen's people if not here for BC? honestly...not really. Why?,they have same right with different surfaces. Why do you think she stays out there. That's their(racing's) own fault with these dumb new surfaces. Del Mar had more breakdowns that Saratoga. They said it would be opposite. Jockeys have said poly is worse to hit.

That's all,my post never trashed any horse here. Just trashed that racing is not what it used to be and it sucks and I know why,it's not a shock or new to me,just frustrating. It's WAY MORE than Rach vs Zen or Brown Vs Curlin.

[Show Me the Wire]

Ok you're right if that race was on dirt and she won today,I'd say,yeah she would've been tough to beat by anyone. NO DOUBT! But it's just a plain different surface. So many great dirt horses go there and fail on poly, Curlin amongst many,many others.

Polyturf-Zenyataa hell tought to beat.
Dirt-Not sure,have we seen her enough on it to judge. One race way back is not enough to judge. Rach... we know what she can do on dirt.

Would I have been all over Zen's people if not here for BC? honestly...not really. Why?,they have same right with different surfaces. Why do you think she stays out there. That's their(racing's) own fault with these dumb new surfaces. Del Mar had more breakdowns that Saratoga. They said it would be opposite. Jockeys have said poly is worse to hit.

That's all,my post never trashed any horse here. Just trashed that racing is not what it used to be and it sucks and I know why,it's not a shock or new to me,just frustrating. It's WAY MORE than Rach vs Zen or Brown Vs Curlin.

I think she stays out there for pratical reasons. It is tough and difficult to ship horses and dangerous. The B.C. is being held on your home track so why do you want to prep anywhere else?

You plan out a schedule to have your horse peak at the right time and the racing secretaries are going to be helpfull. Lots of pratical reasons to stay and none to ship.

I explained to you about the bottoms. RA's bottom was reached and Macho Again was going past RA, the wire saved her. They have yet to reach Zenyatta's bottom even today that is why I say Zenyatta wins today even on dirt.

And yes I would have been criticizing Zenyatta's connections for not running in the B.C. on dirt if they wanted to win HOY.

[tzipi]

Ok so in a way then as you say Rachael didn't have to ship with it being difficult and dangerous.

Again,we will never know who would've won today on poly,BUT yeah someone else besides field including Rachael would've had to run their butt off today to BEAT her!!!

If it was on dirt,who knows Zenyatta probably as we see prefesr poly and Rach eats up dirt. So again who knows. Why I said in OP,it just sucks racing is like this and it's NOT Zenyattas,Rachaels,Curlins,etc fault.

Post was more about Breeding money killing the sport. No one wants to lose also no one runs past 3,etc. That's all.

I think we should start a thread,"Would Sea the Stars have beaten Zenyatta?" :lol:
Again as she ran today,I would bet no,but also who knows. She was amazing on it today.

[Show Me the Wire]

Ok so in a way then as you say Rachael didn't have to ship with it being difficult and dangerous.

Again,we will never know who would've won today on poly,BUT yeah someone else besides field including Rachael would've had to run their butt off today to BEAT her!!!

If it was on dirt,who knows Zenyatta probably as we see prefesr poly and Rach eats up dirt. So again who knows. Why I said in OP,it just sucks racing is like this and it's NOT Zenyattas,Rachaels,Curlins,etc fault.

Post was more about Breeding money killing the sport. No one wants to lose also no one runs past 3,etc. That's all.

I think we should start a thread,"Would Sea the Stars have beaten Zenyatta?" :lol:
Again as she ran today,I would bet no,but also who knows. She was amazing on it today.

No, RA would not have to ship for preps, but it would be wise to familiarize the horse with the surface. But, yes RA would have to ship-in for the B.C., just like Zenyatta would have had to do if the B.C. were held at Belmont.

Sea the Stars another horse they didn't reach the bottom of.

[tzipi]

OK well fair enough,we agree to disagree on some things. Two great horses along at the same time. Whatcha gonna do :)

[PaceAdvantage]

I explained to you about the bottoms. RA's bottom was reached and Macho Again was going past RA, the wire saved her. They have yet to reach Zenyatta's bottom even today that is why I say Zenyatta wins today even on dirt.Is that any better or worse than having a head separate Zenyatta and Anabaa's Creation in the Clement Hirsch? You see, this works both ways....Zenyatta was life and death to get up that day...

Did they almost get to Zenyatta's bottom on August 9th against such a nondescript horse? At least Macho Again is a bonafide Grade 1 winner....

[Stillriledup]

Unfortunately, racing seems to be the only sport where rivals might not ever face each other. This doesn't happen in other sports. Bitter rivals in other sports face each other at least once per season.

[badcompany]

I explained to you about the bottoms. RA's bottom was reached and Macho Again was going past RA, the wire saved her. They have yet to reach Zenyatta's bottom even today that is why I say Zenyatta wins today even on dirt.


Macho Again, with Robby Albarado in the irons, made his run at the super filly and appeared to catch her and be ready to take command, but Rachel Alexandra found another gear to kick clear. Yet Rachel Alexandra had to fight off one final charge by Macho Again, ultimately denying the son of Macho Uno at the wire.
“She would never let him go by her,” Borel said. “Every time he went up to her, she would dig in again. Even galloping out, I said to Robby ‘You ain’t going by us.’ She is such a tremendous filly. He ran up to her three times and she kept giving me a little bit more.”
“I never thought I had her,” Albarado said. ... “She’s a great filly. The only thing I was hoping was that at some point she would tire or something. She’s great.”

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2009/09/06/sports/pinksheet/doc4aa326692ed2f365964925.txt

But I'm sure you know better than the Jockey.