Can we finally agree that Zenyatta is great?

[classhandicapper]

I'm going to refrain from too thorough an analysis of her prior races and why I think both speed figures and quality of field comparisons failed to capture her greatness. All I'm going to say is that horses don't go 13 for 13 by accident and the clues were in her closing times.

All that said, I played against her at 5-2 because I made her between 5-1 and 6-1 on my own line. With a couple of terrific Euros and an assortment of other multiple Grade 1 winners on various surfaces in the race, this was an awfully tough spot for a filly to try to prove what some of us already knew. But prove it she did!

This was one of those rare instances in my life that I had a couple of horses in the thick of the running through the stretch but was screaming for Mike Smith to get her up and beat me!

Watching greatness like I witnessed today will last for the rest of my lifetime. A few winning tickets are almost meaningless by comparison.

Thanks Zenyatta.

You brought a tear to my eye and made me remember why I love this sport and game so much.

[Greyfox]

Agreed. I played against her as well but she's quite a talent.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Cadillakin]

Yes, we can.. I wanted to say she is the best mare I've ever seen, but I had to wait for this day. Even the immortal Secretariat did not travel at Zenyatta's speed from the 3/8ths to the finish line... on the dirt surfaces he raced over. The synthetics by comparison are very demanding on horses with high speed... and by most accounts hinder the exhibition of brilliant sustained speed.

I started a thread on this aspect many months ago but it didn't go too far..

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=692747&postcount=1
"This is not a closer, but a horse of devastating speed.. exhibited NOT from the front of the field, but from the back.."

[PaceAdvantage]

I was rooting my lungs out for Gio Ponti myself...

The synthetics simply ruin Zenyatta for me...there, I've said it...

[CBedo]

I was rooting my lungs out for Gio Ponti myself...

The synthetics simply ruin Zenyatta for me...there, I've said it...My money was on Gio Ponti, but my heart wasn't disappointed that she won.

(and I had the exacta so that helped a bit as well)

[PaceAdvantage]

I will agree that Zenyatta is a great synthetic track runner...the greatest synthetic runner to ever step onto an American racetrack.

[Ian Meyers]

I was rooting my lungs out for Gio Ponti myself...

The synthetics simply ruin Zenyatta for me...there, I've said it...

I think I get out for life if it runs Gio Ponti/Twice Over. :(

I am happy for Zenyatta's connections but I could have been even more happy with a furious late rally that just got her 3rd. ;)

[Tom]

I will agree that Zenyatta is a great synthetic track runner...the greatest synthetic runner to ever step onto an American racetrack.

Why is that bad?
Substitute "dirt" and it is not a negative. We are talking global champions now, so being only a dirt horse is not a negative? Zenyatta is undefeated on DIRT as well as poly.

[Greyfox]

She may not have, but the connections had "balls" to enter her in the Classic.
That took "balls." It would have been so much easier to take a softer spot.
HOY imo.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why is that bad?
Substitute "dirt" and it is not a negative. We are talking global champions now, so being only a dirt horse is not a negative? Zenyatta is undefeated on DIRT as well as poly.I didn't say it was bad. Most races in the US are run over DIRT. Thus DIRT should be first preference when it comes to HOY...it always has been...why should that change now?

We have a superstar DIRT runner named Rachel Alexandra...but we are going to give HOY to Zenyatta based on one race over a surface hardly anyone runs on here in the US?

Not only that, recent rumblings say this artificial junk is losing its standing among a significant portion of trainers and other participants who are currently forced to run over it....maybe Zenyatta's win will be a savior for artificial surfaces...who knows?

But right now, I don't really understand the rush to throw everything Rachel has done out the window because Zenyatta rolled outta bed and won the artificial Breeders' Cup....

[Tom]

No one it trying to throw out Rachael's accomplishment, but you seem to be trying to deny Zenyatta's.

Most real stakes races are run around two turns. Should Belmont stakes be thrown out as being the oddballs?

[Tampa Russ]

Why is that bad?
Substitute "dirt" and it is not a negative. We are talking global champions now, so being only a dirt horse is not a negative? Zenyatta is undefeated on DIRT as well as poly.

She'd probably be undefeated on Turf as well, if given the opportunity. I think her biggest plus today was that she finally got a chance to run 10 furlongs. And she just crushed them. What a beast.

[Show Me the Wire]

I didn't say it was bad. Most races in the US are run over DIRT. Thus DIRT should be first preference when it comes to HOY...it always has been...why should that change now?

We have a superstar DIRT runner named Rachel Alexandra...but we are going to give HOY to Zenyatta based on one race over a surface hardly anyone runs on here in the US?

Not only that, recent rumblings say this artificial junk is losing its standing among a significant portion of trainers and other participants who are currently forced to run over it....maybe Zenyatta's win will be a savior for artificial surfaces...who knows?

But right now, I don't really understand the rush to throw everything Rachel has done out the window because Zenyatta rolled outta bed and won the artificial Breeders' Cup....

Dirt is the major surface in the east. AWS in Kentucky, Keeneland and Turfway. In Illinois the premere meet is AP, once again AWS and of course the CA. circuit.

Sounds like an East coast bias to me. Of course nothing wrong having a bias about your favorite circuit.

[bigmack]

I didn't say it was bad. Most races in the US are run over DIRT. Thus DIRT should be first preference when it comes to HOY...it always has been...why should that change now?

We have a superstar DIRT runner named Rachel Alexandra...but we are going to give HOY to Zenyatta based on one race over a surface hardly anyone runs on here in the US?

Not only that, recent rumblings say this artificial junk is losing its standing among a significant portion of trainers and other participants who are currently forced to run over it....maybe Zenyatta's win will be a savior for artificial surfaces...who knows?

But right now, I don't really understand the rush to throw everything Rachel has done out the window because Zenyatta rolled outta bed and won the artificial Breeders' Cup....
As you've a fancy to do, the thread is entitled "Can we finally agree". HOY will be decided and I suspect there will be more than enough time to debate that as the decision is made. Your efforts seem to be more in the category of trying to diminish the accomplishments, let alone the record, of Z to thwart any uprising to RA

[FastAndFurious]

I was rooting my lungs out for Gio Ponti myself...

The synthetics simply ruin Zenyatta for me...there, I've said it...
PA your acting like she has never run on dirt?

[Cadillakin]

PA your acting like she has never run on dirt?
I know.. He always does that.. So, do others in here. They pretend Rachel didn't race brilliantly on a synthetic surface and Zenyatta didn't dominate her only dirt race... They also make-believe Rachel runs on the real stuff and Zenyatta runs on the fake stuff.. IMO, it's childish nonsense.

By the way, great article just released with a lot of the trainers and horseman commenting on todays race by Zenyatta..

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/breederscup09/news/story?id=4633556
"She beat the heck out of us," said Eoin Harty, the trainer of Colonel John, who finished fifth in the Classic. "That was probably the greatest performance I've ever seen. Fantastic. I'm happy and proud for Zenyatta and glad I was here to see that. I never saw Secretariat run but I've never seen anything like her.

Christophe Clement was extremely proud of the effort his Gio Ponti turned in finishing second in the Classic. But even a four-time Grade 1 winner like Gio Ponti proved no match for Zenyatta once she came rolling alongside in late stretch.

"My horse ran very well and proved the decision to try him in the Classic was the right one," said Clement. "She's just a freak. What can I say?"

[PaceAdvantage]

Dirt is the major surface in the east. AWS in Kentucky, Keeneland and Turfway. In Illinois the premere meet is AP, once again AWS and of course the CA. circuit.

Sounds like an East coast bias to me. Of course nothing wrong having a bias about your favorite circuit.You're right. AWS is the dominant surface in American stakes racing...my bad....

[PaceAdvantage]

PA your acting like she has never run on dirt?I believe we are talking about HOY 2009. I also believe she ran on dirt in 2008.

Is it me?

[the_fat_man]

I know.. He always does that.. So, do others in here. They pretend Rachel didn't race brilliantly on a synthetic surface and Zenyatta didn't dominate her only dirt race... They also make-believe Rachel runs on the real stuff and Zenyatta runs on the fake stuff.. IMO, it's childish nonsense.



Yeah. This is precisely because BEYERS are meant for DIRT. (As witnessed by how even more useless they are on POLY and TURF.) So, all those buying into the numbers have to also buy into the DIRT is SUPERIOR propaganda because trying to actually understand what happens in a race would be too much to do. There a whole society of horseplayers build on this You give equal weight to POLY and the whole system collapses. Look at the spin by the BEYER camp after the Derby, trying to convince us that POTN running 2nd validated their contention that he was just SLOW. The whole thing is a joke.

Clearly there are other ways to model races than SPEED (or speed and pace). Anyone doing so can see how superior a horse Z really is. Anyone relying on numbers is left with yet another CONTRADICTION: a SLOW horse beating FAST horses.

But, I know, 'it's the surface'.:rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't use Beyers or any type of speed figures...just so you know...

[Show Me the Wire]

You're right. AWS is the dominant surface in American stakes racing...my bad....


Between Keeneland and Cali it is a pretty prominent surface. Just not a prominent surface in the East.

Like I said nothing wrong with rooting for your circuit and its horses. Remember East and West always argue about which horses are best, goes back to Sea Biscuit's time. Only now we can throw in AWS into the debate.

It really isn't about the surface as Zenyatta has gone undefeated on traditional dirt too. The real knock against Zenyatta is that she didn't race outside of So. Cal. and kept on beating up on inferior Cali female horses.

Well Life is Sweet showed how strong a race mare she is in the Ladies classic and Zenyatta won a race no other female won, in a sensational manner.

[PaceAdvantage]

Rachel raced in NY twice, NJ once, Pimlico once, Churchill once, Oaklawn twice and Fair Grounds once...still calling it an east coast bias?

Looks like an "all over" bias, compared to Zenyatta anyway....

[WinterTriangle]

Substitute "dirt" and it is not a negative. We are talking global champions now, so being only a dirt horse is not a negative? Zenyatta is undefeated on DIRT as well as poly.

Couldn't help but remember, with Music Note running in BC this year, she is another horse that Zenyatta trounced. Zenyatta also trounced Cocoa Beach. And.....Life is Sweet.


Truth is, anti Z folks claimed she never trounced boys. Now she has, not just our boys, but the world's boys. But, the anti Zs say: "but on synth".

So, you point out she wins and runs great on dirt, as well. And the anti Zs say "but that was last year."

You can't win. :) Many will not give her her due.


This year, the best in the world met at Santa Anita.... not NY.

Most of the HOY voters are on the east coast. An award is not going to change what you see on Zen's PPs. :) Nor will it change the mind of racing fans who are provincial, and only know, or care, about dirt racing and American horses.


Oh well, here's Z's dirt race where she trashed Ginger Punch: http://theaspiringhorseplayer.com/2008/10/30/zenyatta-or-curlin/

[classhandicapper]

I will agree that Zenyatta is a great synthetic track runner...the greatest synthetic runner to ever step onto an American racetrack.

I understand the perspective, but I think you aren't thinking about it correctly.

Why does that matter?

Do you hold it against Sea of Stars or other great turf horses because they only raced on turf?

I don't. Great is great, period....at least for me.

Also, I think we should keep in mind that she did beat a good field and run a nice figure on dirt LONG BEFORE her form actually peaked on synthetic. For all we know, she'd run differently and better on dirt.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm looking at these horses the same way I have always looked at horses...perhaps there has been a paradigm shift that I stand unaware of at the moment....

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm looking at these horses the same way I have always looked at horses...perhaps there has been a paradigm shift that I stand unaware of at the moment....

You are in poly denial :)

[statik27]

This argument has gone from slightly annoying to down right absurd in the hours since Zenyatta won the classic. For myself, going into the Breeders Cup I was sort of ambivalent when it came to HOTY this year. Seemed to me that RA had it wrapped up after a good summer campaign.

But I think I've changed my mind.

See whether you like it or not synthetic's are and will have an influence on Major racing in North America for the foreseeable future. Two of the Top three tracks in the country, Del Mar and Keeneland, are Poly-track. All of California is synthetic, Arlington Park, Woodbine. Perhaps it isn't that these tracks are being untrue to North American racing, but are just following the long evolution of race tracks on this continent. Do you really think that the dirt tracks Colin raced on are the same that Rachel is racing on? No of course not, they developed ways to manicure the surface and added drainage systems and so forth. Main track racing has been developing for a 150 years and will continue to do so. Unfortunately it maybe New York that is being left behind in this case.

Now it is an undeniable fact that Zenyatta has now gone undefeated and drilled the best field of horses assembled on this continent this year, with her ears pricked. Sure it was synthetic, but do you really think thats why she won it? Do you really think Summer Bird was ever going to be fast enough on any surface to beat that field? Or that Mine that Bird was ever going to out finish Zenyatta? It was never going to happen. It also happens that those were the only two horses in the race that RA has faced and Zen beat them soundly.

So in my opinion, Zenyatta won the toughest race all year, run on any track. That makes her horse of the year.

[Steve R]

I will agree that Zenyatta is a great synthetic track runner...the greatest synthetic runner to ever step onto an American racetrack.
Agreed! My figures have the race about 1/2 length slower than the historical BC Classic average. But more important, there were 21 starters on the AWS that had never won either on a synthetic surface or turf. They ran 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 12, 12, 13. Even the broadcasters were talking up horses with superior AWS form, confirming the unique characteristics of the surface. Thank goodness the Santa Anita nightmare is over.

[classhandicapper]

Yeah. This is precisely because BEYERS are meant for DIRT. (As witnessed by how even more useless they are on POLY and TURF.) So, all those buying into the numbers have to also buy into the DIRT is SUPERIOR propaganda because trying to actually understand what happens in a race would be too much to do. There a whole society of horseplayers build on this You give equal weight to POLY and the whole system collapses. Look at the spin by the BEYER camp after the Derby, trying to convince us that POTN running 2nd validated their contention that he was just SLOW. The whole thing is a joke.

Clearly there are other ways to model races than SPEED (or speed and pace). Anyone doing so can see how superior a horse Z really is. Anyone relying on numbers is left with yet another CONTRADICTION: a SLOW horse beating FAST horses.

But, I know, 'it's the surface'.:rolleyes:

IMO it is possible to understand the relationship between pace and final time well enough to translate turf numbers into a format that makes them comparable to dirt.

If done well, pace, final time, and closing fraction figures can then be a useful supplement to what see on the track and in the charts for turf and synthetic racing too. You just have to have high quality figures and understand what they mean.

All that said, the real issue is what you said.

Most horse players don't understand the differences between dirt and turf/synth racing very well. So they operate with the same model they use to handicap dirt races instead of building an alternate model for handicapping turf and synth races.

Then again, I'd love to see an expert turf handicapper that never played dirt racing try to beat dirt racing. :lol:

[classhandicapper]

Agreed! My figures have the race about 1/2 length slower than the historical BC Classic average. But more important, there were 21 starters on the AWS that had never won either on a synthetic surface or turf. They ran 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 12, 12, 13. Even the broadcasters were talking up horses with superior AWS form, confirming the unique characteristics of the surface. Thank goodness the Santa Anita nightmare is over.

I don't think you should compare her figures to the historical BC Classic field because the surface is different and the races develop differently.

What you seem to be doing is the exact same thing that all the handicappers that incorrectly thought she was mediocre were doing. Comparing her figures to those earned by great dirt horses on dirt.

If you insist on using numbers, you should probably compare her number today to the numbers earned by the greatest BC Turf Classic horses. That would not be correct either, but it would be a lot closer.

[ghostyapper]

Agreed! My figures have the race about 1/2 length slower than the historical BC Classic average. But more important, there were 21 starters on the AWS that had never won either on a synthetic surface or turf. They ran 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 12, 12, 13. Even the broadcasters were talking up horses with superior AWS form, confirming the unique characteristics of the surface. Thank goodness the Santa Anita nightmare is over.

In other words I am a complete fool who eliminated zenyatta from contention for her "slow" performances this year and claimed that she had lost a step.

[Cadillakin]

Couldn't help but remember, with Music Note running in BC this year, she is another horse that Zenyatta trounced. Zenyatta also trounced Cocoa Beach. And.....Life is Sweet.


Truth is, anti Z folks claimed she never trounced boys. Now she has, not just our boys, but the world's boys. But, the anti Zs say: "but on synth".

So, you point out she wins and runs great on dirt, as well. And the anti Zs say "but that was last year."

You can't win. :) Many will not give her her due.


This year, the best in the world met at Santa Anita.... not NY.

Most of the HOY voters are on the east coast. An award is not going to change what you see on Zen's PPs. :) Nor will it change the mind of racing fans who are provincial, and only know, or care, about dirt racing and American horses.


Oh well, here's Z's dirt race where she trashed Ginger Punch: http://theaspiringhorseplayer.com/2008/10/30/zenyatta-or-curlin/
I like your post. "You can't win." As a Westerner, I have been well-aware of the Eastern bias for many years where it regards rating and rewarding the Western horses with end-of-year honors.

But I do think Zenyatta may overcome that bias. Not only for her spectacular win in the Classic, but for Jess Jacksons poor conduct in not supporting the Breeders Cup Races. I don't think it's good thing in these tough times to be so divisive. These race tracks are fighting for their economic lives and there is Jackson saying, I don't like your surface, so I'm not playing.. I'm taking my horses and going home. As far as he is concerned, race tracks that have synthetics will get no help from him.

IMO, Zenyatta's win and the crowd reaction was a refutation of Jackson. Without Jackson.. Santa Anita presented world class racing. Everything worked well.

I noticed Jerry Bailey on the telecast openly knocked Jackson/Asmussen for ducking the tougher Travers matchup and taking on the easier older field in the Woodward. He was decisive when he said, "My vote is for Zenyatta". With that said, I think there are others that will be taking a second look at which horse is the most deserving of the award.

[Cadillakin]

In other words I am a complete fool who eliminated zenyatta from contention for her "slow" performances this year and claimed that she had lost a step.
Funny!

[PaceAdvantage]

Sure it was synthetic, but do you really think thats why she won it?It certainly played a heckuva major roll...let her prove otherwise someday. Do you think it would have been tougher on Summer Bird if the BC were in NY and Zenyatta was the one who had to ship out and get used to an entirely new surface? No, of course not...it would have been much tougher on Zenyatta.Do you really think Summer Bird was ever going to be fast enough on any surface to beat that field?Of course...Or that Mine that Bird was ever going to out finish Zenyatta?No, Mine That Bird was never going to out finish Zenyatta...even on broken glass...but who didn't know that?It also happens that those were the only two horses in the race that RA has faced and Zen beat them soundly.That's one way to spin it...

[JPinMaryland]

I dont know if we can all finally agree on Zenyatta but can we finally stop comparing RA in the Woodward to Seattle Slew in the JC Gold? Jeezus some people need to have medication levels checked...

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobody can compare to Seattle Slew in the JCGC...the most unreal, freakish performance I have ever seen on video...AND HE LOST! :lol:

[statik27]

Nobody can compare to Seattle Slew in the JCGC...the most unreal, freakish performance I have ever seen on video...AND HE LOST! :lol:

You and I definitely agree on this one PA. The most sincere proof of thoroughbred determination.

[Bluesthestandard]

Love Mike Smith's comment---"I still had gears left going down the stretch i never used, and when the crowd roared in the stretch she started to pose. I had to get her mind back on running". Sorry RA, you lose.

[PaceAdvantage]

Love Mike Smith's comment---"I still had gears left going down the stretch i never used, and when the crowd roared in the stretch she started to pose. I had to get her mind back on running". Sorry RA, you lose.If only that's all it took to be HOY...positive post-race comments from your own jockey....

[slew101]

Bailey comes across as a fool. He was going to rip RA and her connections regardless of who she ran against at Saratoga. If she went in the Travers, he would have said "she never beat older horses." What he didn't mention was that RA's owner had another horse in the Travers (Kensei) that they had to run so they couldn't run RA there from a business standpoint.

I noticed Jerry Bailey on the telecast openly knocked Jackson/Asmussen for ducking the tougher Travers matchup and taking on the easier older field in the Woodward. He was decisive when he said, "My vote is for Zenyatta". With that said, I think there are others that will be taking a second look at which horse is the most deserving of the award.

[WinterTriangle]

when the crowd roared in the stretch she started to pose.
:lol:

She's massive, and powerful, but I guess she's a girlie-girl after all in some respects. :) l love it.

If I knew how, I'd make a YouTube video of her races, set to Madonna's "The Vogue", you know, the song that inspired all that "dancing". That seems to fit Zenyatta perfectly.

[DeanT]

Who cares who is better? Who cares what she ran on?

That was an absolutely awesome performance.

For one day I did not have to hear about who Moss made records with, or listen to Jess Jackson go on about "plastic". I got to watch a great mare who simply lives to eat, sleep, get petted and win races, race. And that she did.

That was awesome.

[RXB]

Was out running in my own race today so I've just watched the replay. Good for Zenyatta.

As far as AWS is concerned, and California-only is concerned, please be reminded that she won the Grade 1 Apple Blossom-- yes, that's in Arkansas, and on dirt-- by 4 1/2 lengths in just her fourth lifetime start.

I didn't think that she would win the Classic. Heck, I didn't even think they'd enter her in the Classic. But they did, and she won (pretty easily, too). A wonderful horse.

[DanG]

.

The synthetics simply ruin Zenyatta for me...there, I've said it...
That is pathetic…with all due respect. :ThmbDown:

[depalma113]

Bailey comes across as a fool. He was going to rip RA and her connections regardless of who she ran against at Saratoga. If she went in the Travers, he would have said "she never beat older horses." What he didn't mention was that RA's owner had another horse in the Travers (Kensei) that they had to run so they couldn't run RA there from a business standpoint.

Bailey's an idiot. Zenyatta's connections ducked all of these horses in the Pacific Classic, the tougher of the two races run on Oct 10th. Didn't hear him mention anything about that.

[ghostyapper]

Bailey's an idiot. Zenyatta's connections ducked all of these horses in the Pacific Classic, the tougher of the two races run on Oct 10th. Didn't hear him mention anything about that.

But she showed up in the most important race.

[depalma113]

But she showed up in the most important race.

Nothing like showing up for a Dirt Championship race on a surface that is biased against dirt horses.

[ghostyapper]

Nothing like showing up for a Dirt Championship race on a surface that is biased against dirt horses.


This was the same surface that you claim she ducked males on so your post makes no sense.

Had Rachel run in the jcgc no 1 would be saying that she ducked the travers. Instead they ducked the travers for a weak field of older and then ducked the travers runners in the jcgc.

[cj]

Nothing like showing up for a Dirt Championship race on a surface that is biased against dirt horses.

Why not? It worked out so well for all those other dirt horses.

[depalma113]

This was the same surface that you claim she ducked males on so your post makes no sense.

Had Rachel run in the jcgc no 1 would be saying that she ducked the travers. Instead they ducked the travers for a weak field of older and then ducked the travers runners in the jcgc.


The stuff at Del Mar is nowhere near the same stuff in Santa Anita.

As for Rachel, the connections screwed up not running her in the Belmont or the JCGC, she would have won either or both.

At Santa Anita, she would have never had a chance. The surface is a fraud.

[depalma113]

Why not? It worked out so well for all those other dirt horses.

The dirt horses had no chance at Santa Anita, so I don't understand what you mean?

[ghostyapper]

The stuff at Del Mar is nowhere near the same stuff in Santa Anita.

As for Rachel, the connections screwed up not running her in the Belmont or the JCGC, she would have won either or both.

At Santa Anita, she would have never had a chance. The surface is a fraud.

Hmm so not only is zenyatta nothing more than a synthetic specialist, now she is nothing more than a santa anita specialist. You're hilarious.

[cj]

The dirt horses had no chance at Santa Anita, so I don't understand what you mean?

Sarcasm...please don't make me resort to emoticons.

[depalma113]

Hmm so not only is zenyatta nothing more than a synthetic specialist, now she is nothing more than a santa anita specialist. You're hilarious.

Yes, she is a synthetic specialist and yes Santa Anita is her best track. That's kind of obvious.

If they want to prove she can just as easily win on dirt send her to the Clark. Based on what happened yesterday, a win should be a given in that race. Somehow I just don't think they have it in them to give the horse another challenge. One is enough for that camp.

[depalma113]

Sarcasm...please don't make me resort to emoticons.

Sorry, I should have known better.

[bks]

depalma113, you're quite a case.

The Clark? She shipped once to Churchill already this year. There is no fear in this camp. Another gratuitous insult from you.

She buried the best, for fun, at 1 1/4 miles. Wrapped up at the end. Historic on any surface.

[FenceBored]

depalma113, you're quite a case.

The Clark? She shipped once to Churchill already this year. There is no fear in this camp. Another gratuitous insult from you.


Um, she scratched at Churchill because of FEARS regarding track condition. Understandable fears, certainly, but don't say her connections have no fears.

[toetoe]

As Joe Alto would say, "She's the boss !" However, Gio Ponti at 12/1; Zenyatta at 5/2 --- WHO gets my money ? Uh, the Italian architect guy.

[Bluesthestandard]

Bailey's an idiot. Zenyatta's connections ducked all of these horses in the Pacific Classic, the tougher of the two races run on Oct 10th. Didn't hear him mention anything about that.


Bailey is the "new" Tim McCarver of baseball.

[classhandicapper]

I want to add one more thing because in the posturing for HOY I'm already hearing what I consider to be a bogus argument against Zenyatta (and by the way if I had a vote it would be a painful one for Rachel because IMO she had the better overall year but Zenyatta is still not getting proper respect).

I've heard a few people on TV say that Z doesn't deserve a lot of credit because some of the eastern dirt horses were at a disadvantage on the Pro Ride.

Well guess what, even though I agree with that, it also means that horses like Gio Ponti, Einstein, the two Euros, and the other synth horses were spotted very well and she whipped their assses anyway (and we all know how good the Euros are. Just look at the scoreboard for the two days and the other recent stakes).

Why is that any different than when the best eastern horses beat up on the few Euros that were courageous enough to try dirt and beat them or were actually upset by them?

It's not!

In almost every BC Classic there are few very good horses taking a shot at a new distance, surface etc.... So to diminish her effort is to say that the past winners that beat up on Euros had an unfair advantage on dirt. It's bogus as long as the overall field was very deep and this was.

[oddsmaven]

HOY is very close in my eyes...I'd root for Rachel if she faced Zenyatta in a race, but all sentiment aside I'd barely lean to Zenyatta if given a vote.

The Classic is the biggest race and perhaps outweighs the fact that Rachel whipped males in three big races...if RA had run in & won the Derby, plus a couple others, I'd say her, but the other three races just aren't quite as important.

But shame on Bailey (I think it was him) who went out of his way to trash RA for ducking the Classic and even ridiculing them for running in the Woodward instead of the Travers...they were sportmen last year and Curlin lost leaving a bad taste in their mouth for that surface...I didn't see Zenyatta's people taking on every possible tough challenge until the last, & even then managing to keep her always at home & on her likely best surface...I wouldn't have criticized either as both tried to do right by their horse...RA should not have been singled out negatively like that.

[Cadillakin]

HOY is very close in my eyes...I'd root for Rachel if she faced Zenyatta in a race, but all sentiment aside I'd barely lean to Zenyatta if given a vote.

The Classic is the biggest race and perhaps outweighs the fact that Rachel whipped males in three big races...if RA had run in & won the Derby, plus a couple others, I'd say her, but the other three races just aren't quite as important.

But shame on Bailey (I think it was him) who went out of his way to trash RA for ducking the Classic and even ridiculing them for running in the Woodward instead of the Travers...they were sportmen last year and Curlin lost leaving a bad taste in their mouth for that surface...I didn't see Zenyatta's people taking on every possible tough challenge until the last, & even then managing to keep her always at home & on her likely best surface...I wouldn't have criticized either as both tried to do right by their horse...RA should not have been singled out negatively like that.
In my eyes, one is not a sportsman at all, if after losing, they cry and complain and blame everybody and everything but themselves. There was no credit for the horses that beat Curlin.. No congratulations to the victors. No magnanimity at all. Jackson is neither a gentleman or a sportsman. It was and is a constant diminishing of Santa Anita and synthetic surfaces, all for the singular purpose to prop up Curlin and have others believe that he was the best horse... and was only beaten by the surface. To me and many others, Curlin looked like shit in his prior race... coming up to the BC Classic. That 14 second final eighth while struggling to run down Past the Point was f**king painful to watch.. In fact, I've never in my life seen handicappers finish that slow on a fast track.

When Curlin was circling in at the 5/16th's in the BC Classic I'll bet Jackson was loving the Santa Anita surface.. Curlin faltered at the finish just like he did against Past the Point.. The difference being the runners in the Classic weren't allowance horses like Past the Point... so another mediocre run by Curlin wasn't going to get him to the winners circle. If he'd have gotten there, Jackson would be singing a different tune.

You can bet the house on that one.

[PaceAdvantage]

That is pathetic…with all due respect. :ThmbDown:We all have our biases. How is that pathetic? Some people value closers, others front-runners. Some value turf runners more than dirt runners.

I choose to not value all that highly a horse who has done nothing but run on synthetics all year when it comes to Horse of the Year.

Thus, that simple fact does not allow me to jump up and down and get all tingly about Zenyatta, just as I am sure there are plenty of folks who don't jump up and down and get all tingly about Rachel Alexandra.

That's ok. At least I've never called those folks pathetic...with all due respect of course.

[PaceAdvantage]

In my eyes, one is not a sportsman at all, if after losing, they cry and complain and blame everybody and everything but themselves. There was no credit for the horses that beat Curlin.. No congratulations to the victors. No magnanimity at all. Jackson is neither a gentleman or a sportsman. It was and is a constant diminishing of Santa Anita and synthetic surfaces, all for the singular purpose to prop up Curlin and have others believe that he was the best horse... and was only beaten by the surface. To me and many others, Curlin looked like shit in his prior race... coming up to the BC Classic. That 14 second final eighth while struggling to run down Past the Point was f**king painful to watch.. In fact, I've never in my life seen handicappers finish that slow on a fast track.

When Curlin was circling in at the 5/16th's in the BC Classic I'll bet Jackson was loving the Santa Anita surface.. Curlin faltered at the finish just like he did against Past the Point.. The difference being the runners in the Classic weren't allowance horses like Past the Point... so another mediocre run by Curlin wasn't going to get him to the winners circle. If he'd have gotten there, Jackson would be singing a different tune.

You can bet the house on that one.Do you feel that vulgarities allow you to get your point across better? I see you resorting to them a lot lately...the "F" word is kind of frowned upon around here...

Thanks for your cooperation.

[NY BRED]

How incredible the racing Gods are to leave us with this debate.

The synthetic surface, designed to supposedly protect thoroughbred and Jockey
now creates a debate as to the the rightful horse of the Year.


Zenyata: for the most part ran against her own sex on synthetics
and went 14-14.The value of the BC win is she finally faced males
and looked tremendous i(or as Trevor stated unbeeeeelievable).

The knock: the field primarily consisted of Turf horses and opponents
who rarely performed well on synthetics, and I believe the winning Beyer #
is a 99.

Rachel: Not only ran huge against other fillies, but took on the boys
at various tracks,distances and surfaces.If there is a knock on the horse,
blame the owner who refused to run the filly on synthetics because
of Curlin's loss on the surface last year.


The flip is the admant refusal of the Zenyata camp to compete against
Rachel on dirt despite huge purses offered by various tracks.


Summation: Does the BC Classic have more "class" than the classics
in which Rachel competed in? Does this BC classic have a different
meaning because of the surface in which many trainers actually avoided?

For my purposes, and this may sound insane, I picture Zenyata , as an
analogy, as a great Turf horse(instead of synthetic), with a couple of
nice wins on the dirt.If you can accept that logic, I'm sure you will agree that classification would rarely win the BC when compared to Rachel's
victories.

[Stillriledup]

How incredible the racing Gods are to leave us with this debate.

The synthetic surface, designed to supposedly protect thoroughbred and Jockey
now creates a debate as to the the rightful horse of the Year.


Zenyata: for the most part ran against her own sex on synthetics
and went 14-14.The value of the BC win is she finally faced males
and looked tremendous i(or as Trevor stated unbeeeeelievable).

The knock: the field primarily consisted of Turf horses and opponents
who rarely performed well on synthetics, and I believe the winning Beyer #
is a 99.

Rachel: Not only ran huge against other fillies, but took on the boys
at various tracks,distances and surfaces.If there is a knock on the horse,
blame the owner who refused to run the filly on synthetics because
of Curlin's loss on the surface last year.


The flip is the admant refusal of the Zenyata camp to compete against
Rachel on dirt despite huge purses offered by various tracks.


Summation: Does the BC Classic have more "class" than the classics
in which Rachel competed in? Does this BC classic have a different
meaning because of the surface in which many trainers actually avoided?

For my purposes, and this may sound insane, I picture Zenyata , as an
analogy, as a great Turf horse(instead of synthetic), with a couple of
nice wins on the dirt.If you can accept that logic, I'm sure you will agree that classification would rarely win the BC when compared to Rachel's
victories.


Zenyatta was 5 for 5, not 14 for 14.

(if we're talking HOY, she only ran 5 times in 2009)

[tucker6]

As for Rachel, the connections screwed up not running her in the Belmont or the JCGC, she would have won either or both.


How can you say that? If I recall, she came out of the Kentucky Oaks and Preakness dead tired, so they passed on the Belmont. I'd prefer that the connections "screw up" on the side of caution, which they did. As for the JCGC, I see no reason why they could not have run in it, but obviously it did not fit into their plans going forward. I trust they have a plan.

[tucker6]

That is pathetic…with all due respect. :ThmbDown:
Dan,

I always like your thoughtful posts, but I don't get this one. Many of us share PA's point of view that poly crap is a negative for any horse that primarily runs on it. That doesn't make it pathetic. That makes it an opinion and POV.

Tom

[DanG]

Class, your PM’s are full.

[DanG]

We all have our biases. How is that pathetic? Some people value closers, others front-runners. Some value turf runners more than dirt runners.

I choose to not value all that highly a horse who has done nothing but run on synthetics all year when it comes to Horse of the Year.

Thus, that simple fact does not allow me to jump up and down and get all tingly about Zenyatta, just as I am sure there are plenty of folks who don't jump up and down and get all tingly about Rachel Alexandra.

That's ok. At least I've never called those folks pathetic...with all due respect of course.
It’s not pathetic, poor choice of words…I apologize.

However; much of what I’ve read on this board from the undefeated Hallowed Dreams insanity to the mainly eastern biased slander is pathetic to say the least.

When you follow an animal of this quality from its maiden win and the final chapter becomes one of the most dramatic moments in racing history…follow that with a “there, I said it” remark from someone you respect. It didn’t seem to warrant a thoughtful reply to be honest.

That race…that mare was GREAT for this game all the nonsense I’ve read leading up to it provoked the “pathetic” response that was clearly out of line.

Having said that… I would give HOY to Rachel regardless of Zenyatta’s brilliant finish.

On a happier note…

A belated congratulations to your Yankees. Regardless of their advantages that no other team enjoys it’s impossible not to feel good for Rivera and Jeter & respect the pain that Posada and Matsui play through. Having a competitive Yankee squad (within reason :D ) is good for baseball, just as that charismatic mare was good for our sport.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks for the follow-up Dan...and I hear where you're coming from...it probably seems like I am doing all I can to rain on the Zenyatta parade, and indeed that may be pathetic.

But, I'm not really trying to rain on the Zenyatta parade...just trying to make sure Rachel is not forgotten simply because she hasn't run since September.

All too often it's a "what have you done for me lately" world...

[Show Me the Wire]

Thanks for the follow-up Dan...and I hear where you're coming from...it probably seems like I am doing all I can to rain on the Zenyatta parade, and indeed that may be pathetic.

But, I'm not really trying to rain on the Zenyatta parade...just trying to make sure Rachel is not forgotten simply because she hasn't run since September.

All too often it's a "what have you done for me lately" world...

But isn't that the choice R.A.'s connections made, knowing especially it is what have you done for me lately?

They gambled that Zenyatta wouldn't step out to meet the big boys, and would opt to beat up on the ladies.

Zenyatta's connections saw Jackson's gambit and raised him.

Now it is very interesting. How much importance does B.C. championship day play. I hope with great importance, as I would like to see the best come out to race on a championship day, instead of staying in the stall