Quality Road major tantrum!

[WinterTriangle]

He is kicking, bucking, flippin' out and will not go into gate. I hope he has not damage himself.

All the horses are being backed out of the gate. What a terrible mess for such a big race.

I hope they don't let him run. They couldn't even blindfold him.

What a talented horse, I have to wonder what is going on with his training....give him to Helen Pitts!!! !!!! Or some very patient conditioner who can develop this horse. He was supposed to "be somebody".

On a side note, what is wrong with people? Zenyatta got upset when an onlooker was slapping his program , like a whip. don't people know how to behave better?

[toussaud]

He is kicking, bucking, flippin' out and will not go into gate. I hope he has not damage himself.

All the horses are being backed out of the gate. What a terrible mess for such a big race.

I hope they don't let him run. They couldn't even blindfold him.

What a talented horse, I have to wonder what is going on with his training....give him to Helen Pitts!!! !!!! Or some very patient conditioner who can develop this horse. He was supposed to "be somebody".

On a side note, what is wrong with people? Zenyatta got upset when an onlooker was slapping his program , like a whip. don't people know how to behave better?


giving him to pletcher was the worst decision that owner ever made. horrible decision.

a freaking superstar in the making. now he can't even hold it together long enough to get out the damn gate in a 5 milllion dollar race (whcih he wasn't ready for int he first place. thanks todd)

[Stillriledup]

Wonderful rules in Calif the scratched horse's pick 4 money goes directly to the favorite. People who 'messed up' and bet QR got rewarded by their money going on Zenyatta. Nice payday for people who didn't deserve it.

[jognlope]

Pletcher is so cold and has too many horses. Horses pick up everything. I know, been there and being there.

[ghostyapper]

That was scary when he was uncontrollable in the gate. He might not have ever went in today but the gate crew really did a poor job.

[the_fat_man]

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of connections. The juicer and the blue blood that couldn't wait to take this horse away from Jerkins. Not like he actually had a shot, anyway. I'm sure GP will spruce their track up for him this winter so he can turn in one of those FAST races again.

[bane]

Send that horse to the test barn :D

[bisket]

he was the same old horse his first race back, but pletcher wouldn't have had him long enough to put his stamp on him. as time went by the horse regressed every race, and acted as if he really didn't want to be on the track more and more every race.

[bisket]

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of connections. The juicer and the blue blood that couldn't wait to take this horse away from Jerkins. Not like he actually had a shot, anyway. I'm sure GP will spruce their track up for him this winter so he can turn in one of those FAST races again.
jerkins is a good man from a good tree of horseman going back years. i was very upset to see him lose this horse. he probably wanted to put the horse on thew shelf for a longer period of time than the owner wanted, but who really knows. i've never liked pletcher. he trains quality horses like claimers.

[PaceAdvantage]

What the hell are some of you talking about in this thread? No shot in the BC Classic?

Yeah, maybe after throwing a fit he had no shot, but going into the race, I had him as my second choice behind Gio Ponti...

And as for messing him up...Won the Amsterdam, third in the Travers and a close second to Summer Bird in the Jockey Club Gold Cup....yeah...sounds real messed up to me...:rolleyes:

[bisket]

your certainly entitled to your opinion, but didn't see any of this before pletcher got a hold of him. i almost fell out of my chair laughing when pletcher said he hoped to see quality on the bridle early in the race. fact is the horse hasn't been on the bridle since the amsterdam. wonder why? thats basically what i said after the jockey club is that he hasn't been on the bridle in his last two races, and he's acted up in the gate both races. every other race i ever saw him run he was on it, and looked like a horse for the ages. pletcher gets him and he turns into mr. ed :lol: you bet your opinion and i'll bet mine. my opinions have served me well for many years now.

[Tom]

I gave him no shot before the race.

[WinterTriangle]

Pace, I agree. QR had a better chance of ITM than a LOT of the horses in this race. (and the results proved it.) Summer Bird and Gio Ponti had enough class to hit the board in this, regardless of surface. While there are freak outcomes sometimes, one doesn't go into the Classic wagering horses who just posted their highest beyer in their last race.

Which is why it upset me so much to see how he's crumbled under Pletcher. This was a horse who could be a champion. I'm literally horrified.

The gate crew did a horrible job. There are methods that they could use but didn't.

For whatever reason, it wasn't QRs day, and I would suggest to Pletcher that a lot of gate schooling needs to be done before QR races again. The horse has to be freaked out now after this bad experience. He was already a bit claustophobic before this.......but isn't that what GOOD TRAINING addresses?

[ghostyapper]

For whatever reason, it wasn't QRs day, and I would suggest to Pletcher that a lot of gate schooling needs to be done before QR races again. The horse has to be freaked out now after this bad experience. He was already a bit claustophobic before this.......but isn't that what GOOD TRAINING addresses?

Pletcher will probably ignore and rush him to the cigar mile.

[Run Nicholas Run]

Pletcher will probably ignore and rush him to the cigar mile.

:lol: :D ;) :eek: :faint:
just as the guy he learned from.

[PaceAdvantage]

And they yell at me for piling on Zenyatta....:lol:

[bisket]

And they yell at me for piling on Zenyatta....:lol:
i just don't like pletcher. its a sore spot with me. he's just really lucky he didn't race that horse on a dry dirt track this fall because he'd have alot of explaining to do to the owners. in drf he said he's been trying to get quality to relax in the lead up to the race, and then he says today he hopes quality is on the bridle. he just needs to give the horse a break and bring him back next year and let the horse burst from the gate ands do his thing. pletcher does that and he'll win alot of races with that horse. he was very fortunate with the way things turned out in all the races this fall. he can make a case that the horse just didn't like the tracks he raced on. it saved his arse.

[toussaud]

Pletcher will probably ignore and rush him to the cigar mile.
it wouldn't be so funny if it were not true

[bisket]

i will say if quality is right i do think he'll race capably on santa anita's course. if i saw him at delmar though he would be a throwout. which is why he was a tough throwout for me.

[thespaah]

Wonderful rules in Calif the scratched horse's pick 4 money goes directly to the favorite. People who 'messed up' and bet QR got rewarded by their money going on Zenyatta. Nice payday for people who didn't deserve it.
Deserve?
PLease explain...
Question: how do you know that some or all of those P-4 tix didn't have the favorite as well?
DO you think the bettors that had QR in theoir P-4's should have gotten a refund? Arer you sure about that? After hitting three of 4 on their P-4 tix they should just have gotten back their wager?

[ghostyapper]

it wouldn't be so funny if it were not true

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=16867

[toussaud]

it's sad. it really is

[andymays]

Does anyone know if the gate crew was the regular Santa Anita gate crew?

It didn't look like the same group of guys to me and they didn't look like they handled loading the gate all that well!

[ghostyapper]

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[thespaah]

Does anyone know if the gate crew was the regular Santa Anita gate crew?

It didn't look like the same group of guys to me and they didn't look like they handled loading the gate all that well!
I have been going to the races for a long time and i have never seen a horse go postal like that.
Usually the horse will refuse then once they are in their gate stall, they get focused on the view in front of the gate and gets them calmed down.

I thought the crew did what they could. I also thought they would try opening the front gate and trying to get QR in before blinding him..
They also didn't try loading him with the rider off.

But given the importance of the event and not wanting to have the other starters linger in the gate too long, I thought all was handled as best as could be expected.

[andymays]

I have been going to the races for a long time and i have never seen a horse go postal like that.
Usually the horse will refuse then once they are in their gate stall, they get focused on the view in front of the gate and gets them calmed down.

I thought the crew did what they could. I also thought they would try opening the front gate and trying to get QR in before blinding him..
They also didn't try loading him with the rider off.

But given the importance of the event and not wanting to have the other starters linger in the gate too long, I thought all was handled as best as could be expected.


I thought they were a little rough with the horses compared to the usual crew. It was a tough situation though.

[nijinski]

I actually thought the crew did as good a job as anyone could do with an explosive and mpredictable animal .

Other than QR getting superfcial lacerations . No one got hurt. QR dd not beome a loose horse.

Horses were allready loaded , so they had to move fast , not much time to
make deisions in front of a crowd of 60,000 people , cameras flicking and a Copter overhead in the biggest race of the year .

I wonder how many of these guys retire with major back , shoulder and hp injuries.

[Valuist]

He may have a decent turf bloodline but with his running style, he wouldn't have been around at the end anyways.

[BlueShoe]

Should know the answer to this,but not certain.What becomes of Quality Roads nomination and eligibility fees?Do his people get part of the fees refunded,or are they forfeited and the horse declared a starter for such purposes?

[FenceBored]

Should know the answer to this,but not certain.What becomes of Quality Roads nomination and eligibility fees?Do his people get part of the fees refunded,or are they forfeited and the horse declared a starter for such purposes?

Refunds for Pre-Entry, Entry and Supplementary Fees
Pre-entry fees and entry fees for nominated horses are non-refundable except in the event of sickness or disability certified by the track or state veterinarian (or veterinary certification acceptable to Breeders' Cup Limited) or in the event a horse is prevented from starting by a decision of the Racing Directors/Secretaries Panel in order to limit the field of starters. The first one-third (1/3) of the supplementary fee is non-refundable except in the event a horse is prevented from starting by decision of the Racing Directors/Secretaries Panel in order to limit the field of starters. The remaining two-thirds (2/3) of this fee is non-refundable except in the event of sickness or disability certified by the track or state veterinarian (or veterinary certification acceptable to Breeders' Cup Limited) or in the event a horse is prevented from starting by a decision of the Racing Directors/Secretaries Panel in order to limit the field of starters.
-- http://www.breederscup.com/content.aspx?id=26326
The way I read that they may get the fees refunded, it depends on whether they classify the gate scratch as an "event of sickness or disability certified by the track or state veterinarian." The rationale for the scratch was the cuts on his legs, so that would seem to be a disability certified by the track vet.

[joanied]

I guess we have a couple of threads going on Quality Road's freak out...I posted in the other thread, but IMO...first of all, QR last spring was an awesome looking animal...in the post parade for the Classic, I thought...is this the same horse? He looks rough.
Todd Pletcher came up under Lukas, and IMO, he really took to the business end of training, but, also, IMO, he can't train a lick...and he has no insight into a horse's mind...and I'd bet he never goes in a stall to give a horse a hug...his horses are numbers, not individual creatures that thrive on affection, affectionate pats.
He said he schooled QR at Belmont before shipping to SA because the colt has a history of bad behavior at the gate...again, this man has no insight into the mind of a horse...of course he schooled well at Belmont...every sound and sight is familiar to him, it's his 'home' and his 'comfort zone'...Pletcher said they even tried to spook QR into bad behavior while schooling him...now there ya go, Todd...give the horse a few more bad memories :bang: ...
then they get to SA and guess what...no schooling...a new place, new sights & sounds, and no schooling...brilliant:rolleyes:

This horse needs a break...he needs help from a person that knows how a horse thinks...a 'horse whisperer' (I hate that term, but I guess it's the best we have)...someone that understands the horse, thinks like one and has the patience and care to properly school QR.

I don't know why his owners took him from Jerken's...but if he was still with that man, he'd look fabulous and would have someone working with him everyday to help him with his gate issues.

Whoever at SA allowed that chopper to hover overhead, should have his head examined...again...think like a horse, folks...big bad boogie man over head...and I can't run anywhere...this big steel thing is in front of me and behind me is a small area with rails...can't run that way either...the area behind that gate needs to be big enough so a horse feels free...and there should never be some damned 'bird' hovering overhead...I think Zenyatta was nervous about that thing above and that is why she also hesitated going in...and I suppose the gate crew did the best they could, but it was obvious they were in a hurry to load and one thing you can't do with a nervous horse is rush him...and another thing...you can't fool a smart horse with a blindfold, and as soon as I saw them put that on, I said to my husband, there's a good chance that's gonna make this situation worse...DUH!!!

This colt has a ton of talent, but he needs time...my advice to ol' Todd is to send him to the training center for a while...he is not going to forget last Saturday...so it's going to take the right folks and some time to get him straight...something Todd isn't about to do...he's a business man, not a trainer.
On to the Cigar Mile and to hell with the consequences:ThmbDown:

[Dahoss9698]

Joanied, did it cross your mind that maybe the reason Quality Road freaked out was the crowd and all of the noise? How exactly would Pletcher have prepared him for a crowd of 58,000? More hugs in the stall?

[joanied]

DaHoss...the crowd noise was not so bad at the gate...it is far enough away from the Grandstand to muffle the crowd noise...and if you watch QR in the post parade, where the crowd noise is incredible..he was fine.
And please don't make fun of hugging a horse...beleive me, they know affection.

[Dahoss9698]

You were in the gate? How do you know what the noise was like? Maybe the horse was spooked by the nearly 59,000 people that were there. Or something at the gate spooked him. Or maybe he just freaked out. He has a history of this kind of behavior, and he acted this way when he was with Jerkens.

As for the hugging the horse, come on. Don't write something so ridiculous and I won't mock it.

[joanied]

You were in the gate? How do you know what the noise was like? Maybe the horse was spooked by the nearly 59,000 people that were there. Or something at the gate spooked him. Or maybe he just freaked out. He has a history of this kind of behavior, and he acted this way when he was with Jerkens.

As for the hugging the horse, come on. Don't write something so ridiculous and I won't mock it.

The gate is far enough from the grandstand that the crowd sounds wouldn't matter...besides, QR was fine in the post parade while right in front of that roaring crowd...if it was noise that set him off...it was from the sound of the chopper blades overhead...yes, I know he's had gate issues...and, IMO, if he'd stayed with Jerken's he would have been worked with to get through his gate issues...

yeah...something spooked him...brilliant deduction...we know that!!! I have posted in both QR freak out threads...go read my posts, then come back to argue and poke fun at me...

my saying stuff about hugging a horse was to point out (which you'd know if you read my other posts on this subject)...that Pletcher has no clue about what goes on inside a horses head and that, IMO, he is a business man that trains horses and I'd bet he never goes in the stalls to show any kind of affection to his horses...the man has no feelings for his horses...shows no emotion or affection towards them...and beleive me...horses pick up on that stuff...do you know that a horse can pick up on your state of mind through a lead shank...no, probably not.

You do not rush a nervous/scared horse...which is exactly what Pletcher has done with QR.

[bisket]

all i can say is the longer the horse has been with pletcher the worse the horse looked and raced.

[joanied]

all i can say is the longer the horse has been with pletcher the worse the horse looked and raced.

Agreed:ThmbUp:

[Dahoss9698]

You want me to go back and read other posts of yours? Who in their right mind would subject themselves to such torture?

Let me point out something, which seems to have escaped your brilliant mind. It was the owner that moved the horse to Pletcher. I'm just speculating, but I'm guessing it was the owner that wanted the horse to run in the Travers. Just like it will be the owners decision if and when the horse gets a break.

You can say what you want about Pletcher, no matter how silly it may be. But, his stable is a top class operation. His horses are cared for as well or better than other barns. Everything from the stalls to the bridle is immaculate. He's a good business man, but he's also a hell of a horseman. I don't really know how that can even be argued against.

But, you've decided that Pletcher has no idea how to train and has no feelings for his horses? All of this because a notoriously high strung horse freaked out at the gate in front of 59,000? Gimme a break. Pletcher has done a pretty good job with the horse. He's run 3 bang up races, and two of them coming at a distance that is probably a bit too far for him.

Would you feel the same way if instead of thousand dollar suits, Pletcher wore a big dumb hat and Wrangler jeans to the races?

[Dahoss9698]

all i can say is the longer the horse has been with pletcher the worse the horse looked and raced.

How so? He came off a 5 month layoff and ran a hole in the wind in the Amsterdam. Was 3rd and probably a bit short, which is certainly understandable in the Travers to the probable 3 year old champ. Then he made up 4 lengths from the Travers on Summer Bird in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

What do you base your baseless claim on?

[joanied]

You want me to go back and read other posts of yours? Who in their right mind would subject themselves to such torture?

Let me point out something, which seems to have escaped your brilliant mind. It was the owner that moved the horse to Pletcher. I'm just speculating, but I'm guessing it was the owner that wanted the horse to run in the Travers. Just like it will be the owners decision if and when the horse gets a break.

You can say what you want about Pletcher, no matter how silly it may be. But, his stable is a top class operation. His horses are cared for as well or better than other barns. Everything from the stalls to the bridle is immaculate. He's a good business man, but he's also a hell of a horseman. I don't really know how that can even be argued against.

But, you've decided that Pletcher has no idea how to train and has no feelings for his horses? All of this because a notoriously high strung horse freaked out at the gate in front of 59,000? Gimme a break. Pletcher has done a pretty good job with the horse. He's run 3 bang up races, and two of them coming at a distance that is probably a bit too far for him.

Would you feel the same way if instead of thousand dollar suits, Pletcher wore a big dumb hat and Wrangler jeans to the races?

The owner moved QR from Jerken's...DUH...gee, I'd never have thought of that:faint:

You think Pletcher is a good trainer...I do not...to each his own...but if he'd spent the time to school QR at SA, instead of doing it on his home ground at Belmont...maybe he would have loaded...we'll never know, so I guess it's all moot anyway.

What I don't like is your patronizing attitude towards my post...making fun of someone shows how much class a person has...or hasn't.

Oh...and let me say this...clothes do not make the man!!

[Dahoss9698]

Is that a yes or no to my last question?

[bisket]

How so? He came off a 5 month layoff and ran a hole in the wind in the Amsterdam. Was 3rd and probably a bit short, which is certainly understandable in the Travers to the probable 3 year old champ. Then he made up 4 lengths from the Travers on Summer Bird in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

What do you base your baseless claim on?
look from his first race on the horse was on the bridle and aggressive at the beginning of every race to the end of every race. i saw the exact same thing in the amsterdam. i didn't see it in either one of his races since the amsterdam. he came up on other horses and blew right by them. in the travers and the jcgc he was just running along with the other horses in a uncompetitive manner

[Dahoss9698]

Uncompetitive? You sure you watched the JCGC?

[joanied]

Is that a yes or no to my last question?

I guess it's important to you...no...it would make no difference to me if Pletcher wears a big dumb cowboy hat and jeans...because I could care less what he wears...$1,000 suits just say he likes to dress well and look the part of the business man that he is...
makes me wonder when was the last time that man got dirty...better not get down on one knee to check a horse's legs wearing a $1,000 suit:D

[Show Me the Wire]

, he can't train a lick...and he has no insight into a horse's mind...and I'd bet he never goes in a stall to give a horse a hug...his horses are numbers, not individual creatures that thrive on affection, affectionate pats.............................................. ............................................

I don't know why his owners took him from Jerken's...but if he was still with that man, he'd look fabulous and would have someone working with him everyday to help him with his gate issues.......................................



Pletcher as all the other major trainers with large strings has assistants to do the hands on hugging and affection. maybe you should be aiming your vtriol at the assistant.

I would guess Jerkens lost the horse because the owners felt Jerkens was doing a poor job or maybe Jerkens told them the truth that the horse was no good.

About the advice you gave to Dahoss9698 about attacking people, you may want to look in the mirror regarding your savage attack on Pletcher.

[bisket]

jcgc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSp1cxcFiPE
johnny's on the brakes from the get go, and the horse never opens his stride through the whole stretch. you can see at one point quality's stride change as summer bird still aggressively challenges quality in the stretch. quality slows down a touch. in the florida derby the shoe was on the other foot. i know johnny v is pleading with the horse, but quality isn't trying.
florida derby
johnny is rubbing lightly from the beginning into the stertch, and quality opens his stride in the stretch. quality is the aggressor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQhT4K2HHj4

[Cardus]

The owner moved QR from Jerken's...DUH...gee, I'd never have thought of that:faint:

You think Pletcher is a good trainer...I do not...to each his own...but if he'd spent the time to school QR at SA, instead of doing it on his home ground at Belmont...maybe he would have loaded...we'll never know, so I guess it's all moot anyway.

What I don't like is your patronizing attitude towards my post...making fun of someone shows how much class a person has...or hasn't.

Oh...and let me say this...clothes do not make the man!!

I highlighted a debatable point; "maybe" he would have loaded.

The rest is drivel.

[joanied]

Pletcher as all the other major trainers with large strings has assistants to do the hands on hugging and affection. maybe you should be aiming your vtriol at the assistant.

I would guess Jerkens lost the horse because the owners felt Jerkens was doing a poor job or maybe Jerkens told them the truth that the horse was no good.

About the advice you gave to Dahoss9698 about attacking people, you may want to look in the mirror regarding your savage attack on Pletcher.

Savage attack:confused: ...I gave my opinion on the man as a trainer...I don't think that qualifies as a savage attack...did I call him names? I'll stick with my opinion...I don't think he's much of a trainer...I'm sure his assistant's are great...and they probably know the nuances of every horse in the barn.
We are all entitled to our opinions...and mine has nothing to do with savage attacks...I am sorry you see it that way.

[joanied]

I highlighted a debatable point; "maybe" he would have loaded.

The rest is drivel.

Then why post a reply to me:faint:

[Show Me the Wire]

Savage attack:confused: ...I gave my opinion on the man as a trainer...I don't think that qualifies as a savage attack...did I call him names? I'll stick with my opinion...I don't think he's much of a trainer...I'm sure his assistant's are great...and they probably know the nuances of every horse in the barn.
We are all entitled to our opinions...and mine has nothing to do with savage attacks...I am sorry you see it that way.

You can't be more savage than accusing the man of being insensitive to his horses and not knowing what is good for his horses.

He makes his living taking care of other people's investments and you accuse of him of not having the horses interest and his owner's investments as one of his priorities.

Saying I don't care for his training methods is an opinion, but saying he is insensitive to a living animal and he doesn't how to take care of them is an attack.

You crossed the line and I am surprised PA let you get away with it.

[PaceAdvantage]

About the advice you gave to Dahoss9698 about attacking people, you may want to look in the mirror regarding your savage attack on Pletcher.I have to agree here...unless you have personal knowledge about Pletcher and how he may personally feel about his horses, how much affection he may or may not show him, I just don't see how you can justify writing these things.

Dumb question I suppose, but Joanie, do you have first hand knowledge of Pletcher and how he handles the horses he sees on a day-in day-out basis?

And another question...does any of the Pletcher bashers actually believe that Jimmy Jerkens has NEVER had a horse act up at the gate, necessitating a scratch? I mean, maybe he hasn't...but that would be pretty unbelievable, wouldn't you say?

[PaceAdvantage]

You crossed the line and I am surprised PA let you get away with it.I'm not here 24/7 you know...I'm just reading this thread now....:lol:

[joanied]

You can't be more savage than accusing the man of being insensitive to his horses and not knowing what is good for his horses.

He makes his living taking care of other people's investments and you accuse of him of not having the horses interest and his owner's investments as one of his priorities.

Saying I don't care for his training methods is an opinion, but saying he is insensitive to a living animal and he doesn't how to take care of them is an attack.

You crossed the line and I am surprised PA let you get away with it.

:faint: I didn't say he doesn't know how to take care of his horses...and I didn't say he was insensitve...I said I don't think he is into the minds of his horses...to do that, one must be in contact with each horse and treat them as individuals...everyday...he has so many horses that he can't do that, and maybe he wouldn't do that anyway...he's a different kind of trainer...he is not hands on...and sometimes, that makes a big difference...needless to say, he has his owners interests as top priority...otherwise, his owners would go elsewhere...
so please...just drop this because I think you are looking for a fight, and I'm not gonna give it to you.

[PaceAdvantage]

he is not hands on...and sometimes, that makes a big difference...needless to say, he has his owners interests as top priority...otherwise, his owners would go elsewhere...
so please...just drop this because I think you are looking for a fight, and I'm not gonna give it to you.How can you say this without first hand knowledge. Or do you know this from first hand experience?

I've seen him at his barn at Belmont...of course he is hands on....where are you getting this from?

[hazzardm]

Blood Horse now reporting QR got mentally freaked and would not board the plane home. Thats a long van ride. :bang:

[Cardus]

Then why post a reply to me:faint:

Because I wanted to make it clear that I thought that your post was drivel.

You didn't think that I would lump you in with DaHoss, did you?

[Grits]

Blood Horse now reporting QR got mentally freaked and would not board the plane home. Thats a long van ride. :bang:

LOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL:lol: :lol:

[WinterTriangle]

The horse is in meltdown state. Hasn't snapped out of it and now is doing same on the plane.


the horse needs to be put on the feed bucket, placed in some race that will build his confidence, and get ample gate schooling in the meantime.


Joanied, did it cross your mind that maybe the reason Quality Road freaked out was the crowd and all of the noise? How exactly would Pletcher have prepared him for a crowd of 58,000? More hugs in the stall?

I explained in the other QR thread why he freaked out. Post #46:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63581&page=4


Look, Mr. Pletcher is an accomplished trainer. That DOESN'T mean he's good at everything. Horses don't jive with everybody they come in contact with.

How often do you go backside and see which ones bite you, which ones back off when you walk toward the stall, and which ones stick their head out and rest it on your shoulder.

In quality road's case, the kismet is not working. Its apparent from the way the horse looks, and from how he is racing and acting.


This is why horses sometimes go to other trainers. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

It doesn't mean the trainer is no good. It means that with a particular horse, they are not effective.



I shudder to think that somebody who owned a horse would *force* them to do something when they are trying to tell you they do not want to do it. (Grits was getting at this in the other QR topic......)



BTW, on your hugs comment to Joanied.....bet she's *touched* more horses than you've ever handicapped....If I'm wrong, then your comment sure made it look that way. :)

[WinterTriangle]

Would you feel the same way if instead of thousand dollar suits, Pletcher wore a big dumb hat and Wrangler jeans to the races?

I can't speak for Joanied, but Larry Jones dresses like that and he looks HOT.

so does Chip ;)

[joanied]

OK...I now realize that I shouldn't have said what I beleive is true...but you have a point, I don't see him at the barn...I made my judgments by watching the man and those are the conclusions I came to...and these comments were mostly surrounding QR.
If I crossed a line here...I am sorry for it...we all got pretty passionate about this thing with QR...the entire QR story has me upset...

so...I apologize for being too open with my feelings about Pletcher and the way I beleive he's handeled QR.

I am sorry.

[onefast99]

Blood Horse now reporting QR got mentally freaked and would not board the plane home. Thats a long van ride. :bang:
A sedative will get him to board the plane, I heard the movie onboard was Seabiscuit and he didn't want to see it again.

[onefast99]

I can't speak for Joanied, but Larry Jones dresses like that and he looks HOT.

so does Chip ;)
And the CMA awards are tonight you should see lots of hats and boots.:kiss:

[Dahoss9698]

The horse is in meltdown state. Hasn't snapped out of it and now is doing same on the plane.


the horse needs to be put on the feed bucket, placed in some race that will build his confidence, and get ample gate schooling in the meantime.




I explained in the other QR thread why he freaked out. Post #46:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63581&page=4


Look, Mr. Pletcher is an accomplished trainer. That DOESN'T mean he's good at everything. Horses don't jive with everybody they come in contact with.

How often do you go backside and see which ones bite you, which ones back off when you walk toward the stall, and which ones stick their head out and rest it on your shoulder.

In quality road's case, the kismet is not working. Its apparent from the way the horse looks, and from how he is racing and acting.


This is why horses sometimes go to other trainers. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

It doesn't mean the trainer is no good. It means that with a particular horse, they are not effective.



I shudder to think that somebody who owned a horse would *force* them to do something when they are trying to tell you they do not want to do it. (Grits was getting at this in the other QR topic......)



BTW, on your hugs comment to Joanied.....bet she's *touched* more horses than you've ever handicapped....If I'm wrong, then your comment sure made it look that way. :)

No offense, but you're the same person that called Well Armed a great horse.....sorry if I don't take your word as gospel. Quality Road has always been poorly behaved. Had he not had the meltdown in the gate at he Breeders Cup, I'm sure you never would have even known that.

Since he had such a rough go of it in the Travers, you would think he would have shown signs of this in the JCGC right? He was beat a length by Summer Bird, in a pretty good performance.

I'm not going to pretend to play horse whisperer on the internet like you all are. A nototriously high strung horse, freaked out when in front of the biggest crowd he'll ever see. It's not the first time it'll happen and definitely not the last. In my opinion, it was the large crowd that did him in. He resented what happened in the gate.

Frankly, I could care less about how many horses anyone has hugged. Hugging horses doesn't allow you to make off the wall comments as you please. She admitted she has no clue about Pletcher's training practices (surprise, surprise).

Were you guys this angry when Larry Jones ran Friesan Fire in the Preakness?

[tucker6]

Lots of anger in this thread. Let's just move on, and live to argue another day. :)

[Show Me the Wire]

OK...I now realize that I shouldn't have said what I beleive is true...but you have a point, I don't see him at the barn...I made my judgments by watching the man and those are the conclusions I came to...and these comments were mostly surrounding QR.
If I crossed a line here...I am sorry for it...we all got pretty passionate about this thing with QR...the entire QR story has me upset...

so...I apologize for being too open with my feelings about Pletcher and the way I beleive he's handeled QR.

I am sorry.

You don't have to apologize for your feelings. You can say you hate the man, if you wanted.

You expressed more than feelings, you made accusations about his actions and motivations. Apologize to PA for that.

[tucker6]

You don't have to apologize for your feelings. You can say you hate the man, if you wanted.

You expressed more than feelings, you made accusations about his actions and motivations. Apologize to PA for that.
Quit being so full of yourself. She apologized and said she was sorry. If you don't accept that, that's your problem, not hers. If PA has a problem, I'm sure he won't be too shy to ask for one.

[WinterTriangle]

No offense, but you're the same person that called Well Armed a great horse.....sorry if I don't take your word as gospel. Quality Road has always been poorly behaved. Had he not had the meltdown in the gate at he Breeders Cup, I'm sure you never would have even known that.

Most everyone knew that.

The reason this topic desintigrated is because of people like you who can't post without making personal attacks.

You don't know me, and you also don't know who I know, or don't know, on the backside....... or at S.A. ........ do you?

I have not attacked you personally, only given my opinions. On horses, trainers, and races.........but not on you personally.


Given you propensity for personal attacks, your opinions about me mean little, because I don't respect you for doing it. :)

[Dahoss9698]

Most everyone knew that.

The reason this topic desintigrated is because of people like you who can't post without making personal attacks.

You don't know me, and you also don't know who I know, or don't know, on the backside....... or at S.A. ........ do you?

I have not attacked you personally, only given my opinions. On horses, trainers, and races.........but not on you personally.


Given you propensity for personal attacks, your opinions about me mean little, because I don't respect you for doing it. :)

Who and how did I personally attack someone? I did the same as you. I gave my opinion.

We both make snide remarks. But you put a happy face at the end of it, so apparently that makes the remark not as snide. I'm not fooled.

Would the response to this have been the same if Larry Jones trained Quality Road? I doubt it. Wonder why....

[Show Me the Wire]

Quit being so full of yourself. She apologized and said she was sorry. If you don't accept that, that's your problem, not hers. If PA has a problem, I'm sure he won't be too shy to ask for one.


She inappropriately dumped on the man and then she apologizes for having feelings. She made Pletcher the victim of her feelings

Now she is playing the victim because she had been called out. Her apology was a non-apology and I pointed that out.

BTW the way why do you feel the need to butt in?

[tucker6]

BTW the way why do you feel the need to butt in?
Look in the mirror yourself. You asking her to apologize to PA is none of your beeswax. Or don't you take your own advice and butt out?

[WinterTriangle]

Who and how did I personally attack someone? I did the same as you. I gave my opinion.

Yes. You resorted to giving your opinion about ME.


You dredged up a post I made months ago, probably even last year, about Well Armed.:confused:

And then said you didn't respect anything I had to say because of it.

Your words are there for all to see.


Quite frankly, I don't remember anything you said last week, let alone in February. I don't even remember being in a thread with you. :confused: .

Now, before you made that remark, I challenge you to find a post in this topic where I personally said anything about you. I challenge you.

[Show Me the Wire]

Look in the mirror yourself. You asking her to apologize to PA is none of your beeswax. Or don't you take your own advice and butt out?

Maybe this will make it a little clearer. There is a little item called libel. She made accusations on PA's board that may open PA up to monetary damages. The harm she did was to PA, not Pletcher.

The person should could have harmed with her tirade was PA. That is why I said she should apologize to him.

Get it now.

Things look foolish when you don't understand.

[tucker6]

Maybe this will make it a little clearer. There is a little item called libel. She made accusations on PA's board that may open PA up to monetary damages. The harm she did was to PA, not Pletcher.

The person should could have harmed with her tirade was PA. That is why I said she should apologize to him.

Get it now.

Things look foolish when you don't understand.
Again, that isn't your concern, now is it busybody? What part of "Get over yourself" isn't getting through?

[Dahoss9698]

Yes. You resorted to giving your opinion about ME.


You dredged up a post I made months ago, probably even last year, about Well Armed.:confused:

And then said you didn't respect anything I had to say because of it.

Your words are there for all to see.


Quite frankly, I don't remember anything you said last week, let alone in February. I don't even remember being in a thread with you. :confused: .

Now, before you made that remark, I challenge you to find a post in this topic where I personally said anything about you. I challenge you.

Stop being so dramatic. I never said I didn't respect anything you had to say. I said I don't take your word as gospel. I also didn't give any opinion about YOU. Like you said, my words are right there.

I challenge you to find a post where I have personally said a thing about you. If it's the Well Armed remark, guilty as charged. I tend to remember the real dumb stuff I read and that definitely fits the criteria.

But, we're getting off topic and really who cares about this stuff. I made my points. You can cry personal attack and tell me about everyone you know on the backstretch. It doesn't change what was being discussed here. :)

[Show Me the Wire]

Again, that isn't your concern, now is it busybody? What part of "Get over yourself" isn't getting through?

The same part that you don't get. Do you think your posts mean anything?

If you do, you have a very self-inflated opinion about yourself. Unfortunately for you I could care less what you think.

[toussaud]

this is the bestest thread ever

[Show Me the Wire]

:lol:

[tucker6]

The same part that you don't get. Do you think your posts mean anything?

If you do, you have a very self-inflated opinion about yourself. Unfortunately for you I could care less what you think.
My posts mean as much as yours do. I'm under no illusions about that. I also know that you likely don't care what I think. I guess I'm letting you know that I don't accept bullying, and will let you know when I see it. Have a nice day.

[Show Me the Wire]

bullying :lol: Not my intention. Pointing out unacceptable postings, yes.

[tucker6]

bullying :lol: Not my intention. Pointing out unacceptable postings, yes.
Then report it to CJ and PA and let the threads remain clean. You do too much policing, and clutter up the board.

[PaceAdvantage]

Enough bickering...i don't want to close another thread!

[Show Me the Wire]

OK

Is it okay to remind tuck about the ignore button as a solution to my clutter?

[toussaud]

i'm going to buy a mare just to bred to quality road, and the name of the offspring will be refuse to load

[Robert Fischer]

As always the initial concerns are with the health of the horse. ABCSports has a video called somethin like "breakdown of the breeders cup classic" which i downloaded. From that video I can playback slow motion, and clearly see two MAJOR hits to Quality Road's head and a few lighter hits. Not good. With a human I would immediately expect a concussion(or two) and possibly a fracture of a bone around the eyes or skull(orbital on a man).

Hope he recovers fully and I hope that leads to more racing from him. He was the most talented 3yo male of his crop. He has hinted and teased at carrying his speed beyond the mile type of runnner, but even as a miler he would be nice to see back happy and in good brain health.

[Cardus]

this is the bestest thread ever

Really?

[joanied]

I was gone all day yesterday, and just read through the newest posts in this thread...
ShowMe the Wire, Dahoss and Cardus...
you guys jumped all over me to the point that I went ahead an apologized...just to end this maddness...
You guys should read my posts again...I was always sure to use IMO...you know damned well everything I wrote was simply how I was seeing this mess with QR and Pletcher and gave my opinions ...then you feel it necessary to call my posts 'drivel', call me 'ridiculous' and that reading my posts would be 'torture'...did I go call in PA because I thought you were making personal attacks on me? No...unlike you guys, I can fight my own fights...and even PA was wrong...I never 'attacked' Pletcher...I gave my own opinions...and said as much.

I never said one damned thing that would be considered libelist...again, I gave my opinions.


I made an apolgy to end this maddness...and even with that...you are still dumping on me...
last I looked PA & cj are the forum moderators...but you guys maybe have nothing better to do...na d you have made a good thread into a battle ground...and me your victum.

It makes me want to take back my apology... alot of good it did anyway...I wrote that with reservation because I really didn't think I needed to apologize for anything in the first place.

Maybe you owe me an apology for calling me ridiculous, telling me my posts are drivel and torture.

I guess I am not allowed to post my opinions, make suggestions, or give any insight...
I am not the kind of person that wants to argue/fight...and now I know that even when one apologizes, it's not enough.

If any of you 3 guys want to carry this any further...PM me...I'll be happy to reply...until that time, leave me the hell alone...and get off your self righteous soapbox!



Thanks to the ones that jumped in to support me...I appreciate that...you saw my posts as they should have been seen...just me voicing my opinions...strong ones, yes...but still...MY opinions...thanks!!!

[onefast99]

I was gone all day yesterday, and just read through the newest posts in this thread...
ShowMe the Wire, Dahoss and Cardus...
you guys jumped all over me to the point that I went ahead an apologized...just to end this maddness...
You guys should read my posts again...I was always sure to use IMO...you know damned well everything I wrote was simply how I was seeing this mess with QR and Pletcher and gave my opinions ...then you feel it necessary to call my posts 'drivel', call me 'ridiculous' and that reading my posts would be 'torture'...did I go call in PA because I thought you were making personal attacks on me? No...unlike you guys, I can fight my own fights...and even PA was wrong...I never 'attacked' Pletcher...I gave my own opinions...and said as much.

I never said one damned thing that would be considered libelist...again, I gave my opinions.


I made an apolgy to end this maddness...and even with that...you are still dumping on me...
last I looked PA & cj are the forum moderators...but you guys maybe have nothing better to do...na d you have made a good thread into a battle ground...and me your victum.

It makes me want to take back my apology... alot of good it did anyway...I wrote that with reservation because I really didn't think I needed to apologize for anything in the first place.

Maybe you owe me an apology for calling me ridiculous, telling me my posts are drivel and torture.

I guess I am not allowed to post my opinions, make suggestions, or give any insight...
I am not the kind of person that wants to argue/fight...and now I know that even when one apologizes, it's not enough.

If any of you 3 guys want to carry this any further...PM me...I'll be happy to reply...until that time, leave me the hell alone...and get off your self righteous soapbox!



Thanks to the ones that jumped in to support me...I appreciate that...you saw my posts as they should have been seen...just me voicing my opinions...strong ones, yes...but still...MY opinions...thanks!!!
No need to apologize to anyone you have the right to make comments and statements that are your opinion. I wouldn't lose sleep over this, most of us enjoy your posts and comments.

[Dahoss9698]

I was gone all day yesterday, and just read through the newest posts in this thread...
ShowMe the Wire, Dahoss and Cardus...
you guys jumped all over me to the point that I went ahead an apologized...just to end this maddness...
You guys should read my posts again...I was always sure to use IMO...you know damned well everything I wrote was simply how I was seeing this mess with QR and Pletcher and gave my opinions ...then you feel it necessary to call my posts 'drivel', call me 'ridiculous' and that reading my posts would be 'torture'...did I go call in PA because I thought you were making personal attacks on me? No...unlike you guys, I can fight my own fights...and even PA was wrong...I never 'attacked' Pletcher...I gave my own opinions...and said as much.

I never said one damned thing that would be considered libelist...again, I gave my opinions.


I made an apolgy to end this maddness...and even with that...you are still dumping on me...
last I looked PA & cj are the forum moderators...but you guys maybe have nothing better to do...na d you have made a good thread into a battle ground...and me your victum.

It makes me want to take back my apology... alot of good it did anyway...I wrote that with reservation because I really didn't think I needed to apologize for anything in the first place.

Maybe you owe me an apology for calling me ridiculous, telling me my posts are drivel and torture.

I guess I am not allowed to post my opinions, make suggestions, or give any insight...
I am not the kind of person that wants to argue/fight...and now I know that even when one apologizes, it's not enough.

If any of you 3 guys want to carry this any further...PM me...I'll be happy to reply...until that time, leave me the hell alone...and get off your self righteous soapbox!



Thanks to the ones that jumped in to support me...I appreciate that...you saw my posts as they should have been seen...just me voicing my opinions...strong ones, yes...but still...MY opinions...thanks!!!

:lol:

Apparently, you can voice your opinions, but no one else can....Good to know. I can fight my own fights too. I never personally attacked you. I gave reasons why I thought you were incorrect. Your opinions had no substance behind them, as you admitted you had no idea how Pletcher trained.

I never asked for you to apologize to anyone. Why should you? I also don't think you attacked Pletcher. You gave your opinion on him. This is a message board where we all give our opinions on stuff. But, after we do, we should expect some sort of discussion about our opinions. If you are going to post strong opinions, you sort of have to expect strong reactions, right?

Self righteous soapbox? Kind of ironic considering your attitude in this thread and this post, isn't it.

[joanied]

No need to apologize to anyone you have the right to make comments and statements that are your opinion. I wouldn't lose sleep over this, most of us enjoy your posts and comments.

THANK :) YOU, onefast99...I appreciate your kind words:ThmbUp:

[joanied]

:lol:

Apparently, you can voice your opinions, but no one else can....Good to know. I can fight my own fights too. I never personally attacked you. I gave reasons why I thought you were incorrect. Your opinions had no substance behind them, as you admitted you had no idea how Pletcher trained.

I never asked for you to apologize to anyone. Why should you? I also don't think you attacked Pletcher. You gave your opinion on him. This is a message board where we all give our opinions on stuff. But, after we do, we should expect some sort of discussion about our opinions. If you are going to post strong opinions, you sort of have to expect strong reactions, right?

Self righteous soapbox? Kind of ironic considering your attitude in this thread and this post, isn't it.

:faint: The opinions you voiced were about me... mocking my statement that horses needs hugs, telling me I am ridiculous...that my posts are torture to read, and that my opinions are silly.

The reasons you gave me to proove I was incorrect, I replied to...I explained that the gate was too far from the Grandstand for the roars of the crowd to be heard much, and that it was probably the noise of the chopper above, and that QR was fine in the post parade going right in front of the roaring crowd...
I tried to be polite to you and explain my stance and observations...and, once again...I always stated that what I said was IMO. I said absolutley nothing about Pletcher that would come back to PA...in fact, we have had some posts here that actually did attack someone...and PA took care of it....he always does.

You don't know me...but I am an easy going person and always try to find the 'silver lining'...I don't put anyone down, and always give the benefit of the doubt...I have never said anything bad about anyone...and I am always careful to be sure what I do say is my opinion, regardless of what the subject is.

[Dahoss9698]

:faint: The opinions you voiced were about me... mocking my statement that horses needs hugs, telling me I am ridiculous...that my posts are torture to read, and that my opinions are silly.

The reasons you gave me to proove I was incorrect, I replied to...I explained that the gate was too far from the Grandstand for the roars of the crowd to be heard much, and that it was probably the noise of the chopper above, and that QR was fine in the post parade going right in front of the roaring crowd...
I tried to be polite to you and explain my stance and observations...and, once again...I always stated that what I said was IMO. I said absolutley nothing about Pletcher that would come back to PA...in fact, we have had some posts here that actually did attack someone...and PA took care of it....he always does.

You don't know me...but I am an easy going person and always try to find the 'silver lining'...I don't put anyone down, and always give the benefit of the doubt...I have never said anything bad about anyone...and I am always careful to be sure what I do say is my opinion, regardless of what the subject is.

Blah, blah, blah.

My opinion is you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to Pletcher and this situation. Again, if you are going to post strong opinions, expect strong responses. To think Quality Road acted up the way he did, because he didn't get the hugs he needs is, well.....ridiculous in my opinion.

Had my posts been personal attacks, I expect PA would have taken care of it. Like you said, he always does. He didn't. Sorry you can't handle someone disagreeing with your opinion.

I already said, I didn't think you did anything wrong. You have an opinion and so do I. You have a problem with the way I responded.....that's your problem. The site has an ignore function. Just because you preface something by saying, IMO, doesn't mean it can never be questioned. This is a discussion board. Would be pretty boring if everyone just agreed and put smiley faces and thumbs up back and forth to each other wouldn't it?

[joanied]

Blah, blah, blah.

My opinion is you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to Pletcher and this situation. Again, if you are going to post strong opinions, expect strong responses. To think Quality Road acted up the way he did, because he didn't get the hugs he needs is, well.....ridiculous in my opinion.

Had my posts been personal attacks, I expect PA would have taken care of it. Like you said, he always does. He didn't. Sorry you can't handle someone disagreeing with your opinion.

I already said, I didn't think you did anything wrong. You have an opinion and so do I. You have a problem with the way I responded.....that's your problem. The site has an ignore function. Just because you preface something by saying, IMO, doesn't mean it can never be questioned. This is a discussion board. Would be pretty boring if everyone just agreed and put smiley faces and thumbs up back and forth to each other wouldn't it?

:faint: :) :confused: :jump: :mad: :( :blush: :sleeping: :liar: :cool: :D ;) :p :bang: :ThmbUp: :ThmbDown: :lol:

[the_fat_man]

Personally, I think this is much ado about nothing, as I never thought much of this horse. He was spared getting embarrassed in the DERBY by the foot injury and he spared himself in the BC with the gate antics. This horse needs to actually DO SOMETHING before he's given this much attention.

With that out of the way, let me state that Pletcher is not exactly one of the backstretch people that I respect. I personally think that he's a juicer, as many of his horses have performed in ways in the past that just don't jibe with normal tbred performance. And, needless to say, anything NEGATIVE that happens to this CHEATER is much appreciated by me.

So, this isn't really about whether or not he hugs his horses. It's about taking over a horse that has a history of gate issues. It's about shipping the horse to a new environment; one in which the crowd would be PREDICTABLY LARGER than any the horse had been subjected to in the past. And, it's about having to anwer for why the horse, of all the others in the 2 days of racing, including a bunch of EURO shippers, was the only one that REFUSED to gate. I realize that this doesn't necessarily mean that Pletcher didn't prepare the horse adequately. However, since in fact the horse refused, that possibility always will remain a REASONABLE one.

Hopefully, Pletcher and Evans see this as the embarrassment it was.

BUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh

[46zilzal]

A friend wrote this at my web site:

Todd Pletcher is in the mold of his mentor D Wayne Lukas. Same approach, same style, same results. To those guys horses are nothing but commodities. There was once a joke along the lines of "what is the hardest thing to find in racing" and the answer was "a DWL 4 year old".

Pletcher has been busted for medications several times, both uppers and downers to be brief.

California now has the best drug testing lab and a strict no steroids policy.
EVERY horse that ran in the BC both days came back with clean tests. QR was forced to race only on Lasix and/or Bute.

This is not the first meltdown QR has had, and I have to think that TP had to
take QR off his meds. QR needs some time with Monty Roberts but instead he'll be cooped up in a horse van on a cross-country trip to make the starting gate for the Cigar Mile. There's a big purse to be had and to TP QR is just another horse in the barn. Just hope he makes it there in one piece.

[Dahoss9698]

A friend wrote this at my web site:

Todd Pletcher is in the mold of his mentor D Wayne Lukas. Same approach, same style, same results. To those guys horses are nothing but commodities. There was once a joke along the lines of "what is the hardest thing to find in racing" and the answer was "a DWL 4 year old".

Pletcher has been busted for medications several times, both uppers and downers to be brief.

California now has the best drug testing lab and a strict no steroids policy.
EVERY horse that ran in the BC both days came back with clean tests. QR was forced to race only on Lasix and/or Bute.

This is not the first meltdown QR has had, and I have to think that TP had to
take QR off his meds. QR needs some time with Monty Roberts but instead he'll be cooped up in a horse van on a cross-country trip to make the starting gate for the Cigar Mile. There's a big purse to be had and to TP QR is just another horse in the barn. Just hope he makes it there in one piece.

Not sure why I'm wasting my time, but I did with Joanied, so I will with you. QR is on his way back to work with Bob Duncan. Bob Duncan is top notch. If he's ready for the Cigar Mile, he's going to run. If not, he won't.

[Dahoss9698]

So, this isn't really about whether or not he hugs his horses. It's about taking over a horse that has a history of gate issues.

This is about the only worthwhile part of your post. The rest is your usual drivel, although congrats on composing a post and not mentioning TRAKUS. There is hope for you yet.

This was a horse with a history of gate issues. Even with Jimmy Jerkens hugs, he acted up.

[Cadillakin]

This horse needs to actually DO SOMETHING before he's given this much attention.
Amen Brother... I'm laughin...

[tucker6]

Not sure why I'm wasting my time, but I did with Joanied, so I will with you. QR is on his way back to work with Bob Duncan. Bob Duncan is top notch. If he's ready for the Cigar Mile, he's going to run. If not, he won't.
I'll do you one better. If he doesn't run in the Cigar Mile, I say he may be done period. He has issues, and those issues are growing in size, not lessening. If they don't nip this thing, he's lost.

[Show Me the Wire]

joanied:

In my opinion you have no credibility.

Here is a fact, PA asked you to stop posting, your opionions, about the way Pletcher handles his business. You conveniently leave that fact out.

Get over it. Stop playing the victim.

p.s. If you didn't directly address me in yout post I would not have responded to you.

[Dahoss9698]

I'll do you one better. If he doesn't run in the Cigar Mile, I say he may be done period. He has issues, and those issues are growing in size, not lessening. If they don't nip this thing, he's lost.

I don't agree, but we'll see. He'll be working with one of, if not the best in the business in Duncan. I think it's a bit premature to write off a horse that was a length off the 3 year old champ a few weeks ago. I don't think he goes in the Cigar Mile and I expect we'll see him resurface at Gulfstream.

I thought he was the 2nd best 3 year old I saw this year after Rachel Alexandra. I just hope whatever issues he has get resolved, because with the way the older horse division is looking next year, we're going to need all of the talent we can get.

[Show Me the Wire]

My take on it, the horse, Quality Road, has bad feet. A talented horse with bad feet. No foot no horse.

[twindouble]

Does anyone know anything about a helicopter flying around the track when they were loading for the Classic?

[PaceAdvantage]

joanied, I'd just like to clarify why I spoke up here to you in this thread. Specifically, these are the statements that you made that I took issue with...these are taken word for word, and they do NOT contain a "In my opinion, or IMO" anywhere near them that I can see:

but if he'd spent the time to school QR at SA, instead of doing it on his home ground at BelmontThis sounds like fact...now this may indeed be true, but I don't recall hearing any specifics regarding QR's schooling...did they report he schooled at Belmont but not SA?

Pletcher has no clue about what goes on inside a horses headThis does not read like an opinion...it reads like first hand knowledge

the man has no feelings for his horses...shows no emotion or affection towards themThe above definitely does not read as opinion...



Now, here is something you wrote which is obviously opinion:

IMO, he is a business man that trains horses and I'd bet he never goes in the stalls to show any kind of affection to his horsesThis is perfectly acceptable...and I have no issue with this at all...the other quotes above...totally different

Not beating up on joanied here, just trying to explain where I am coming from in all of this...a lot of industry types read and participate here...many with first hand knowledge...it's important that fact and opinion be obvious at times, especially when talking about people who make their living off of this game. It's only fair.

[FenceBored]

joanied, I'd just like to clarify why I spoke up here to you in this thread. Specifically, these are the statements that you made that I took issue with...these are taken word for word, and they do NOT contain a "In my opinion, or IMO" anywhere near them that I can see:

This sounds like fact...now this may indeed be true, but I don't recall hearing any specifics regarding QR's schooling...did they report he schooled at Belmont but not SA?


His owner says in the Bloodhorse article:
“Todd did a lot of gate schooling with him, and he’s always good in the mornings. He’s had him to the gate three or four times between the Jockey Club Gold Cup and this race, and the horse is an angel in the morning, You can’t get him to do anything wrong. They tried to get him wound up, bringing in multiple horses and spinning him in circles, anything they can to aggravate him. He’d hesitate and then walk right in. The afternoon is a different story.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/53390/traumatized-quality-road-will-van-home
This is from the BC Classic Notes for Wed., November 4th.
Quality Road (http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=38043) – The 3yo colt, who arrived on the grounds Tuesday, jogged a mile Wednesday morning in his first visit to Santa Anita’s track in preparation for his date in Saturday’s Classic. -- http://www.breederscup.com/content.aspx?id=43149
He arrives on Tuesday, jogs a mile on Wednesday (no mention of gate work).

Thursday's Classic Notes:
Quality Road (http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=38043) – The colt who enjoyed the lion’s share of the Triple Crown buzz in the springtime could salvage his sophomore season with a victory in the Classic for trainer Todd Pletcher (http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=2367). He galloped 1 ¼m on the main track Thursday morning.
-- http://www.breederscup.com/content.aspx?id=43184
Again, no mention of gate work. Surely they aren't go to work him in the gate on Saturday (day of the race) and risk winding him up, so that would leave Friday. I'm not seeing any notes on Friday morning's works.

[ghostyapper]

Does anyone know anything about a helicopter flying around the track when they were loading for the Classic?

Yes it I think it was flying around all day probably with a camera.

[twindouble]

This is from another forum;

" I see QR's ears flat back and hear a helicopter above him...maybe...just maybe, the entire freak out wasn't all about a lack of schooling, though it may have been, I don't know, but maybe other factors also played into it, including that helicopter. I know I had a baby once wheel out from under me at Adena when a low flying plane buzzed our track."

It would be foolish for me to suggest I knew what went wrong with Quality Road at the gate. Speculation runs rampant on most forums anyway.

[twindouble]

Food for thought from a farm boy.

Horses have a photo graphic memory, just changing their surroundings or throw to many demands on them at once creates confusion including unflimular noise, they are less apt to respond the way you would expect, they will revert to their basic instincts even if it means destroying themselves in the process including you if your to close.

[Show Me the Wire]

Food for thought from a farm boy.

Horses have a photo graphic memory, just changing their surroundings or throw to many demands on them at once creates confusion including unflimular noise, they are less apt to respond the way you would expect, they will revert to their basic instincts even if it means destroying themselves in the process including you if your to close.

Very true. Their memory also, allows them to associate negatives with competing in a race, such as racing on a sore foot.

[twindouble]

Very true. Their memory also, allows them to associate negatives with competing in a race, such as racing on a sore foot.

They don't think like we do, they don't rationalize or evaluate like us. Everything is instinctive, human handlers begin with that to get them to do what they want. In other words you replace the pictures and feed them new memories but never forget under stress, confusion or pain they will revert to flight, fight, refusal and in tight quarters the will kick the barn down and injure themselves, even with a broken leg they will run until they fall. I'm talking horses that are under duress. A trained race horse will run with a sore foot or leg, the sad part is covering lameness up with drugs. Think about it, a well trained dog will still protect his handler and do his job even when injured severely. Not comparing dogs to horses in sense of mental ability only the training process. Dogs are more protective and sensitive to their masters than horses.

[Show Me the Wire]

They don't think like we do, they don't rationalize or evaluate like us. Everything is instinctive, human handlers begin with that to get them to do what they want. In other words you replace the pictures and feed them new memories but never forget under stress, confusion or pain they will revert to flight, fight, refusal and in tight quarters the will kick the barn down and injure themselves, even with a broken leg they will run until they fall. I'm talking horses that are under duress. A trained race horse will run with a sore foot or leg, the sad part is covering lameness up with drugs. Think about it, a well trained dog will still protect his handler and do his job even when injured severely. Not comparing dogs to horses in sense of mental ability only the training process. Dogs are more protective and sensitive to their masters than horses.

No, they do not think like us but they associate pain with activity too. Does a horse drowning in his own blood need time to forget the incident, while acclimating to training on lasix? Of course they do.

Some horse will run on a sore limb and others won't.

I agree a horses are flight animals and more than likely Quality Road was exhibiting that characteristic that day. The question is what triggered Quality Road's flight instinct, unfamiliar surroundings or the negatives of racing? He has been in the starting gate before and has been trained to enter the starting gate, so that by itself should not have triggered his flight instinct.

I definetly agree once his flight instinct kicked in there was no way you could load him in a confined area like a starting gate without major problems.


To summarize, I agree with you about the flight instinct and its impact, but there is no way of knowing what triggered Quality Roads flight instinct that particular day.

[twindouble]

No, they do not think like us but they associate pain with activity too. Does a horse drowning in his own blood need time to forget the incident, while acclimating to training on lasix? Of course they do.

Some horse will run on a sore limb and others won't.

I did say or refuse.


I agree a horses are flight animals and more than likely Quality Road was exhibiting that characteristic that day. The question is what triggered Quality Road's flight instinct, unfamiliar surroundings or the negatives of racing? He has been in the starting gate before and has been trained to enter the starting gate, so that by itself should not have triggered his flight instinct.

I definetly agree once his flight instinct kicked in there was no way you could load him in a confined area like a starting gate without major problems.


To summarize, I agree with you about the flight instinct and its impact, but there is no way of knowing what triggered Quality Roads flight instinct that particular day.



I said it's foolish to speculate on what actually caused his problem. I'm just talking about the nature of the beast.

[Show Me the Wire]

[/b]



I said it's foolish to speculate on what actually caused his problem. I'm just talking about the nature of the beast.


I agree and sorry I missed the part you stated about some refuse.

[joanied]

joanied, I'd just like to clarify why I spoke up here to you in this thread. Specifically, these are the statements that you made that I took issue with...these are taken word for word, and they do NOT contain a "In my opinion, or IMO" anywhere near them that I can see:

This sounds like fact...now this may indeed be true, but I don't recall hearing any specifics regarding QR's schooling...did they report he schooled at Belmont but not SA?

This does not read like an opinion...it reads like first hand knowledge

The above definitely does not read as opinion...



Now, here is something you wrote which is obviously opinion:

This is perfectly acceptable...and I have no issue with this at all...the other quotes above...totally different

Not beating up on joanied here, just trying to explain where I am coming from in all of this...a lot of industry types read and participate here...many with first hand knowledge...it's important that fact and opinion be obvious at times, especially when talking about people who make their living off of this game. It's only fair.


It's OK, PA... I don't know how to take certain lines out of a post and copy & paste them here...I can do one, but then if I try another, I loose this post:mad: ...
but, actually, I did put in the IMO thing...I just didn't think it was necessary to continue it through out every sentence/paragraph...it seemed obvious to me that everything I said was of my opinion:faint: ...and if those guys hadn't jumped in with the raving, I beleive you would not have even noticed...I didn't say anything that would be taken as lible...
there are some posts that say really bad things about Pletcher...about his positves, juicing ect...now that, it seems to me, is much worse than me saying I don't think the man is in touch with his horses...you decide.

But, for me, it's done, PA...and the lesson learned here for me is that although repetitive...I'll use IMO in every sentence :faint: I write for these types of posts.

The End:)

PS...by the way...there was no gate schooling for QR at SA...that's a fact:)

[Show Me the Wire]

I am trying to be helpfull here and give you the benefit of the doubt. Saying my opinion does not have a magical quality.

For illustrative purposes would you like it if I said, "In my opinion you have sex with strangers for money."

Of course, I do not mean the above, I only gave you an example of why IMO doesn't mean anything. You would be extremely displeased if I posted that remark on public forums, even though I prefaced the remark with "in my opinion".

Also, you may be under the impression it is okay to say things about people you are not directly posting to. It is inappropriate to say things about people that do not post here too.

Please try and understand it is the substance of what you say and not only how you say it.

[joanied]

His owner says in the Bloodhorse article:“Todd did a lot of gate schooling with him, and he’s always good in the mornings. He’s had him to the gate three or four times between the Jockey Club Gold Cup and this race, and the horse is an angel in the morning, You can’t get him to do anything wrong. They tried to get him wound up, bringing in multiple horses and spinning him in circles, anything they can to aggravate him. He’d hesitate and then walk right in. The afternoon is a different story.

-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/53390/traumatized-quality-road-will-van-home

This is from the BC Classic Notes for Wed., November 4th.Quality Road (http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=38043) – The 3yo colt, who arrived on the grounds Tuesday, jogged a mile Wednesday morning in his first visit to Santa Anita’s track in preparation for his date in Saturday’s Classic.-- http://www.breederscup.com/content.aspx?id=43149


He arrives on Tuesday, jogs a mile on Wednesday (no mention of gate work).




Thursday's Classic Notes:Quality Road (http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=38043) – The colt who enjoyed the lion’s share of the Triple Crown buzz in the springtime could salvage his sophomore season with a victory in the Classic for trainer Todd Pletcher (http://www.breederscup.com/bio.aspx?id=2367). He galloped 1 ¼m on the main track Thursday morning.

-- http://www.breederscup.com/content.aspx?id=43184

Again, no mention of gate work. Surely they aren't go to work him in the gate on Saturday (day of the race) and risk winding him up, so that would leave Friday. I'm not seeing any notes on Friday morning's works.Thanks for posting this:)

[joanied]

I am trying to be helpfull here and give you the benefit of the doubt. Saying my opinion does not have a magical quality.

For illustrative purposes would you like it if I said, "In my opinion you have sex with strangers for money."

Of course, I do not mean the above, I only gave you an example of why IMO doesn't mean anything. You would be extremely displeased if I posted that remark on public forums, even though I prefaced the remark with "in my opinion".

Also, you may be under the impression it is okay to say things about people you are not directly posting to. It is inappropriate to say things about people that do not post here too.

Please try and understand it is the substance of what you say and not only how you say it.

Go tell this to 'the fat man'.

You can't just give up on this...me & PA got it squared away....and he is the one I answer to...it's his site, not yours.

[tucker6]

I am trying to be helpfull here and give you the benefit of the doubt. Saying my opinion does not have a magical quality.

For illustrative purposes would you like it if I said, "In my opinion you have sex with strangers for money."

Of course, I do not mean the above, I only gave you an example of why IMO doesn't mean anything. You would be extremely displeased if I posted that remark on public forums, even though I prefaced the remark with "in my opinion".

Also, you may be under the impression it is okay to say things about people you are not directly posting to. It is inappropriate to say things about people that do not post here too.

Please try and understand it is the substance of what you say and not only how you say it.
I'm assuming you will be just as vigilant with other posts and posters from now on as you have been with Joanied and her posts. Correct??

[joanied]

joanied:

In my opinion you have no credibility.

Here is a fact, PA asked you to stop posting, your opionions, about the way Pletcher handles his business. You conveniently leave that fact out.

Get over it. Stop playing the victim.

p.s. If you didn't directly address me in yout post I would not have responded to you.

I'm sure as hell not playing the victim...you can plainly see that PA and me have things squared away...and niether PA or anyone else says a person cannot voice their opinions...
and I could care less wether or not you think I am credible...you don't know me and have no idea just how knowledgable I am about horses.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm assuming you will be just as vigilant with other posts and posters from now on as you have been with Joanied and her posts. Correct??

Yes boss person, I have been. Ask the poster that had strong opinions Michael Gill and sound horses the one that had strong opinions about certain cole Norman activities, etc.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm sure as hell not playing the victim...you can plainly see that PA and me have things squared away...and niether PA or anyone else says a person cannot voice their opinions...
and I could care less wether or not you think I am credible...you don't know me and have no idea just how knowledgable I am about horses.

Oh I can imagine how knowledgable you think you are and there is no need to impress us.

I know gossiping on the backside is a favorite past-time. But that same talk more than likely isn't really appropriate on a public forum. BTW the point is not your knowledge of horses, but specific things you said about a specific trainer.

You just can't let it go, can you?

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm sure as hell not playing the victim...you can plainly see that PA and me have things squared away...and niether PA or anyone else says a person cannot voice their opinions...
and I could care less wether or not you think I am credible...you don't know me and have no idea just how knowledgable I am about horses.

The not credible comment was prefaced by IMO. I see those magic words didn't work. The light bulb is coming on.

I made the "not credible remark" to show you saying IMO is not the correct standard to judge whether something is hurtful or damaging.

Also, you should note my posts were made well in advance of PA's most recent post to you.

Oh I do apologze for the, "Oh I can imagine how knowledgable you think you are and there is no need to impress us." I couldn't resist the set-up.

[Grits]

SMTW, how much more credible does it make one who would sit at a computer hitting submit 32 times (and counting) in less than 21 hours?

Debate? Or is it just plain old need?

For my benefit only, I wish you'd pull your net in a bit closer and with the "us" thing. It seems you're the only one here working overtime to steadfastly impress your "knowledge" upon others. You might break a PA record for posts in a 24 hour period. Me . . . I'd be tired of reading myself by now. And others I figure would've tired of me about 16 to 18 hours back.:lol:

[SMTW QUOTE]"Oh I can imagine how knowledgable you think you are and there is no need to impress us."[/QUOTE]

Some of this stuff has been pretty unfortunate.

[Show Me the Wire]

SMTW, Debate? Or is it just plain old need?

For my benefit only, I wish you'd pull your net in a bit closer and with the "us" thing. It seems you're the only one here working overtime to steadfastly impress your "knowledge" upon others. You might break a PA record for posts in a 24 hour period. Me . . . I'd be tired of reading myself by now. And others I figure would've tired of me about 16 to 18 hours back.:lol:

[SMTW QUOTE][i]"Oh I can imagine how knowledgable you think you are and there is no need to impress us." Some of this stuff has been pretty unfortunate
Grits:/i]




Talking to some people takes time for some concepts to sink in apparently.. I apologized for my remark,as I knew the playful sarcasm would be misunderstood. So what problem do you have with it? Report me to a moderator if you believe it to be so terrible.

How nice of you to keep count of my postings in a specific amount of time. Talk about having nothing better to do, you need a life. I mean that remark.

I think PA would be more upset with the back and forth you are encouraging with your specific post to me than, the content in any post I have made to Joanied.

You always have the ignore button, feel free to use it.

[tucker6]

.

Grits:

Talking to some people takes time for some concepts to sink in apparently.. I apologized for my remark,as I knew the playful sarcasm. So what problem do you have with it? Report me to a moderator if you believe it to be so terrible.

How nice of you to keep count of my postings in a specific amount of time. Talk about having nothing better to do, you need a life. I mean that remark.

I think PA would be more upset with the back and forth you are encouraging with your specific post to me than, the content in any post I have made to Joanied.

You always have the ignore button, feel free to use it.[/QUOTE]
I took your advice and reported you. Thanks for the thought. :ThmbUp: At some point, you may yet realize your type of post is unwanted.

[Show Me the Wire]

Grits:

Talking to some people takes time for some concepts to sink in apparently.. I apologized for my remark,as I knew the playful sarcasm. So what problem do you have with it? Report me to a moderator if you believe it to be so terrible.

How nice of you to keep count of my postings in a specific amount of time. Talk about having nothing better to do, you need a life. I mean that remark.

I think PA would be more upset with the back and forth you are encouraging with your specific post to me than, the content in any post I have made to Joanied.

You always have the ignore button, feel free to use it.
I took your advice and reported you. Thanks for the thought. :ThmbUp: At some point, you may yet realize your type of post is unwanted.[/QUOTE]

You complain about clutter on a thread and then you post this.

[tucker6]

I took your advice and reported you. Thanks for the thought. :ThmbUp: At some point, you may yet realize your type of post is unwanted.

You complain about clutter on a thread and then you post this.[/QUOTE]
yep. :kiss:

[Show Me the Wire]

You complain about clutter on a thread and then you post this.
yep. :kiss:


Please close this thread. It has totally drifted and out of control.

[joanied]

Oh I can imagine how knowledgable you think you are and there is no need to impress us.

I know gossiping on the backside is a favorite past-time. But that same talk more than likely isn't really appropriate on a public forum. BTW the point is not your knowledge of horses, but specific things you said about a specific trainer.

You just can't let it go, can you?


I have no idea what you are trying to say about 'backside gossip' :confused: ...

if your point wasn't aimed at how knowledgable I am about horses, then why say such a thing...you think I am trying to 'impress'...nope...sorry, but I have no need to impress anyone...especially you, sir.

Everyone here has posted their opinions on certain trainers...last year you would have had a blast here...with all the discussions we had about Rick Dutrow, your forum policing would have kept you busy 24/7 for weeks :D

...we have always given our opinions on specific trainers...wether those opinions were positive or negative, they are just our opinions... and no doubt, that will continue...

I mentioned several posts ago that if you had anything else to say to me (I also included Dahoss & Cardus in that 'invitation'), to send me a PM and I'd be happy to reply...but now I beleive what you really want is not to make your point to me...but to use this forum as your soap box, aimed at me.

Now...which one of us won't let this go? You have had a chance to take this away from this forum and take it straight to me, via PM's...but choose to continue right here on the board.:bang:

And yep...I enjoy using 'smilies'...they're fun:jump:

[Show Me the Wire]

joanied:

FWIW look how long I've been a member of this community. I was here last year and a lot longer.

I am sorry but I really do not like internet bullies like you and your friends. You say terrible things about people that could ruin their livlihood.

Well, I stood up to your rude and obnoxious behavior amd will continue to do so. Also, because someone in the past has done a bad action that does not give you or anyone else the right to do the same bad action.

Why should anyone need to respond to you in a private matter, while you post your opinions on a public forum?

[tucker6]

joanied:

FWIW look how long I've been a member of this community. I was here last year and a lot longer.

I am sorry but I really do not like internet bullies like you and your friends. You say terrible things about people that could ruin their livlihood.

Well, I stood up to your rude and obnoxious behavior amd will continue to do so. Also, because someone in the past has done a bad action that does not give you or anyone else the right to do the same bad action.

Why should anyone need to respond to you in a private matter, while you post your opinions on a public forum?
I wonder what people like you did before the internet. Probably annoyed the hell out of the neighbors until your tires got slashed. I guess boorish bahavior is boorish behavior no matter the medium.

Respectfully summitted of course.

[Show Me the Wire]

I wonder what people like you did before the internet. Probably annoyed the hell out of the neighbors until your tires got slashed. I guess boorish bahavior is boorish behavior no matter the medium.

Respectfully summitted of course.

Are you qouting from experience? Gee more thread clutter.

[joanied]

joanied:

FWIW look how long I've been a member of this community. I was here last year and a lot longer.

I am sorry but I really do not like internet bullies like you and your friends. You say terrible things about people that could ruin their livlihood.

Well, I stood up to your rude and obnoxious behavior amd will continue to do so. Also, because someone in the past has done a bad action that does not give you or anyone else the right to do the same bad action.

Why should anyone need to respond to you in a private matter, while you post your opinions on a public forum?

Then you know that we all give opinions on trainers...as well as many other subjects...it matters not how long you've been a member....it's not like you have 'senority'.

I also seriously doubt that Mr. Pletcher's livelyhood would be in jeopardy because my opinion of him is not a good one...you give me too much credit:D

Bullies...please, give me a break...rude? obnoxious? You took a simple post, with a person's opinions on a subject and turned it into a war...you are not here to police...you are here, like all of us, to discuss and leave the moderating to the moderators.

If I can't post my opinions here, then why am I a member, then why do we have this forum?...I asked you to PM me about all this so we didn't continue to bore and aggravate everyone else here...but, you continue to reply here on the board, rather than sending me a PM.
:faint:

[Show Me the Wire]

Then you know that we all give opinions on trainers...as well as many other subjects...it matters not how long you've been a member....it's not like you have 'senority'.

I also seriously doubt that Mr. Pletcher's livelyhood would be in jeopardy because my opinion of him is not a good one...you give me too much credit:D

Bullies...please, give me a break...rude? obnoxious? You took a simple post, with a person's opinions on a subject and turned it into a war...you are not here to police...you are here, like all of us, to discuss and leave the moderating to the moderators.

If I can't post my opinions here, then why am I a member, then why do we have this forum?...I asked you to PM me about all this so we didn't continue to bore and aggravate everyone else here...but, you continue to reply here on the board, rather than sending me a PM.
:faint:

Should I pm you to respond to tucker6 and grits too?

[joanied]

Should I pm you to respond to tucker6 and grits too?

You can PM on any subject you so desire...I'm saying it's time to stop the maddness...folks are getting pretty damned tired of this, and I can't blame them.

[Show Me the Wire]

You can PM on any subject you so desire...I'm saying it's time to stop the maddness...folks are getting pretty damned tired of this, and I can't blame them.

Actually, most posters enjoy some flaming. Look grits had to jump-in to keep this going. And your attempts at stirring the pot are becoming pretty pathetic.

I would have to agree at this point it is becoming pretty boring due to the lack of your creativity.

[PaceAdvantage]

but, actually, I did put in the IMO thing...I just didn't think it was necessary to continue it through out every sentence/paragraph...it seemed obvious to me that everything I said was of my opinion:faint: ...You did use IMO once, but I detailed everything in a prior post...no need to rehash it again...and no need to put IMO in front of stuff that is obviously opinion.

Public figures like Todd Pletcher actually have LESS protection under libel law (as you rightly point out, what you say here will likely have close to zero effect on him and his livelihood), but even still, I like to play fair when I can...that's why I pointed this stuff out...

Now it's time to close this thread.