Gambler or Investor

[misscashalot]

Until I learned enough to become a player who makes profit, I gambled. Now I consider myself an investor. I read a post here about multi-track bets and consider that gambling. With the usurious takeouts starting at the most common level of bets (Win) now imposed it is very hard to make $; so I don't gamble now. I'm betting a lot fewer races than I did as a gambler. I bet only when I have a hedge. It's the right way for me. I realize that there is more than 1 reason to bet horses, and certainly gambling (the rush...or to put it another way, a vacation costs $, and you get pleasure but no financial reward) qualifies as a legitimate reason . I think that before we start questioning ourselves as to why we're in a losing streak or why we have a bunch of winners but are losing $ (Hey I'm as guilty as anyone else here with these problems), we should ask ourselves Am I gambling or am I investing. If you realize you're gambling (and that's OK) then accept the consequences. But if you get no pleasure in losing, then as a start of a long process, consider, not only the type of bets you make, but the tracks you play, and make adjustments if warranted. Any opinions or comments?

[Overlay]

Takeouts don't have to be usurious to constitute gambling. The casino has only a 2-3% edge in many games, but because the outcomes of games of pure chance (as well as whether an individual wins or loses money at those games) are totally dependent on blind luck, and because there is no systematic way for the player to maintain a long-term positive edge through the exercise of skill, that is gambling in its pure sense. Of course, a horseplayer can be just as reckless, and play without regard for considerations of edge or value if he chooses to. But the pari-mutuel aspect and skill component of horse-race betting, where consistent long-term positive returns are possible based on individual ability, are what make it the only game for me, and distinguish it from gambling (despite horse racing's higher takeout).

[lamboguy]

i am glad that you are so smart and share your wealth of knowledge with us

[fmolf]

Although they are one in the same society will always look on the stock market as investing and horse racing as gambling.Whatever you call it i did not become a consistent winner/break even(i am only a recreational player)till i realized the value of patience then more patience.Now instead of betting almost every race when i go to the track i usually average maybe 3 races i will wager on and maybe one or two more at my secondary track.

[Overlay]

i am glad that you are so smart and share your wealth of knowledge with us

The lady asked for perspectives about horse racing from a gambling versus investing standpoint, and I provided mine.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

The lady asked for perspectives .

If I remember correctly,'misscashalot' is not female,but apparently a male who does not do well at the track,and is always low on money,so misses his cash a lot!

[Overlay]

My apologies.

[misscashalot]

If I remember correctly,'misscashalot' is not female,but apparently a male who does not do well at the track,and is always low on money,so misses his cash a lot!

You're right I'm a guy. My wife had this tag in another room, She's gone now. So it keeps her in my mind. But, no, I do do well.

[Track Collector]

Just another opinion, but I tend to think of wagering "investments" as those wagers which are arrived at in a repeatable manner (that is, using a consistent methodology) and perhaps shown to be profitable over a reasonable sample size. One example of this would be the UDM (User-Defined Model) which I recall is part of the J-Capper software program. An "investor" plans his/her work, then works his/her plan.

Gambling, on the other hand, often still involves handicapping, but the methodology used to select horses/wagers varies and/or is applied inconsistently from one race to the next. The player here "hopes" for a good result because return rate for the used selection criteria is unsubstantiated or unknown. Some have called these types of wagers "action" bets.

One can and people do win using "action" bets, but during times of poor results they are virtually impossible to analysis for improvement because the selection methodology varies all over the place.

[lamboguy]

my uncle taught me that a pattern player will always do better than an instinct player.


that being said and done, i find it impossible to beat these 20% takeout rates. i am discounted to under 12% in most cases and still find it tough. i am associated with over 600 first time starter that i know more about than most of the trainers training the horse and i still find it quite tough to beat.

i think the point that i am trying to make is that there are alot more people that consider their bets as being investments than ever before. there is much less dumb money in the pools, and there is alot more after the bell betting than ever before. and to boot there is less total handle in pools today than there was a year ago.

when someone says that they have numbers or great investment oportunities in the horse racing game, my hat goes off to you!

[Robert Goren]

A rose by any other name.....

Gambling by any other name is still gambling. You can kid yourself all you like but it is still gambling. I knew some one who listed his occupation on his income tax return as parimutuel investor. He raised 8 kids betting on horses in 60s, 70s and 80s.

[raybo]

I started studying horse racing in 1978. Went to LaD, once, and bet a total of $50 that day. Didn't place another wager until the late 90s, but studied the game that whole time, and started out making a profit. I've made profit every year since, except a period in 2005-2006 that I took a breather and didn't wager at all due to having gone pro in 2004 (way too much stress in that).

Am I a gambler or an investor?

If I'm considered a gambler, then I'll have to change my attitude towards "gamblers" I suppose.

[Robert Goren]

I started studying horse racing in 1978. Went to LaD, once, and bet a total of $50 that day. Didn't place another wager until the late 90s, but studied the game that whole time, and started out making a profit. I've made profit every year since, except a period in 2005-2006 that I took a breather and didn't wager at all due to having gone pro in 2004 (way too much stress in that).

Am I a gambler or an investor?

If I'm considered a gambler, then I'll have to change my attitude towards "gamblers" I suppose. You need to change your attitude toward "gamblers". There isn't a government any where that doesn't consider betting on a horse gambling. You are a gambler. Being profitable at it doesn't change what you are. You can call yourself anything you like, but to most people, you are gambling, not investing.

[raybo]

You need to change your attitude toward "gamblers". There isn't a government any where that doesn't consider betting on a horse gambling. You are a gambler. Being profitable at it doesn't change what you are. You can call yourself anything you like, but to most people, you are gambling, not investing.

I don't care what the government or other "most people" think I am. IMO, a "gambler" is someone who takes risk with no realistic expectation of success. That doesn't apply to me. But if you want to call me a gambler, that's ok.

I guess Warren Buffett is a gambler too?

[speculus]

Gambler: Someone who risks a resource (generally money) with the hope of a reward, WITHOUT verifying his edge (expectation).

Investor: Someone who risks a resource (generally money) with the hope of a reward, AFTER verifying that he has a positive edge (expectation).

[Robert Goren]

So a winning poker player or a card counting blackjack player is an investor? How about the a bookie? I think you are only kidding yourselves.

[speculus]

So a winning poker player or a card counting blackjack player is an investor? How about the a bookie? I think you are only kidding yourselves.

Whenever a poker player wins BECAUSE of his skill (edge), yes he IS an investor, no two issues about it. Same with the blackjack player with superior counting skills.

A bookie is NOT an investor, he is a businessman who, as a rule, takes ANTI positions against his clients, WITHOUT sitting in judgment if the client is an investor (in which case the bookie stands to lose long term) or a gambler (in which case the bookie stands to win long term).

[markgoldie]

Great, informative discussion over semantics. Why don't we throw in "speculator?"

How many consider yourself a speculator rather than an investor or gambler?

We might get some illuminating stories of how we were gamblers when we were losing money in the bad old days; speculators when we started breaking even, and now investors like Warren Buffet because we win consistently.

Maybe it would be helpful to label each bet? For ex., In race #1, I gambled on a first-out maiden claimer, in race #2, I speculated on turf-to-dirt horse, but then in race #3, I invested in a three-horse exacta box.

[speculus]

Great, informative discussion over semantics. Why don't we throw in "speculator?"

How many consider yourself a speculator rather than an investor or gambler?

We might get some illuminating stories of how we were gamblers when we were losing money in the bad old days; speculators when we started breaking even, and now investors like Warren Buffet because we win consistently.

Maybe it would be helpful to label each bet? For ex., In race #1, I gambled on a first-out maiden claimer, in race #2, I speculated on turf-to-dirt horse, but then in race #3, I invested in a three-horse exacta box.

MarkG, here I go:

Speculator: Someone who fancies himself as investor and risks considerable money in a commercial or financial venture with the hope that his investment would appreciate in value and earn him a large reward in future.

Note: A speculator has NOTHING to do with betting on horses, his investments are in "ventures". The nearest one can imagine a speculator may come to horse racing is if he invests in a horse with the hope of selling it at a huge profit later.

[dav4463]

My opinion is that all investing is gambling.

[LottaKash]

MarkG, here I go:

Speculator: Someone who fancies himself as investor and risks considerable money in a commercial or financial venture with the hope that his investment would appreciate in value and earn him a large reward in future.

Note: A speculator has NOTHING to do with betting on horses, his investments are in "ventures". The nearest one can imagine a speculator may come to horse racing is if he invests in a horse with the hope of selling it at a huge profit later.

How about a "future book wager", is that gambling, investing, or specualtion ?....I would say "spceculation", still, it is a bet on a horse...

best,

[misscashalot]

How about a "future book wager", is that gambling, investing, or specualtion ?....I would say "spceculation", still, it is a bet on a horse...

best,\\

Gambling
you dont know if that horse is gonna make the post

[LottaKash]

\\

Gambling
you dont know if that horse is gonna make the post

That may be right in that sense... Still, if one bought a horse as a yearling, Speculus stated as a "speculation", in the hopes that it will become a winning racehorse, that would be speculation, but suppose the horse didn't make it as a racehorse, than I suppose that would be considered gambling, as well....(most people are unaware of just how many horses sold at auction, that never make it to the races)....

As Mark G. so aptly stated, all semantics.....:cool:

Please excuse me, I have to make some investments now....:jump:

best,

[TurfRuler]

If I remember correctly,'misscashalot' is not female,but apparently a male who does not do well at the track,and is always low on money,so misses his cash a lot!

That's funny, a play on words. I remember a misscashalot from the NYRA website, and the name meant a lot to me then and also the poster provided a lot of useful infomation about the NY racing and betting in general. I believe my first Beyer speed rating conversion chart came from this poster and it has been very, very, very useful every since.

This morning walking through the park I had one of my Yogi Berra moments and this thread gambling or investing reminded me to post mine:

Yogi Berra's second claim to fame is for being one of the most quoted figures in the sports world. He is credited with coining the deceptively simplistic observation, "It ain't over till it's over."

Here's mine:

Every runner in a race has a chance to win before the race begins. Everyone who wagers won't know which one will win before the race ends.

There are strange angels and misscashalot has proven to be another. :ThmbUp:

[misscashalot]

That's funny, a play on words. I remember a misscashalot from the NYRA website, and the name meant a lot to me then and also the poster provided a lot of useful infomation about the NY racing and betting in general.
There are strange angels and misscashalot has proven to be another. :ThmbUp:

Dats me PM me and let me know your NYRA/QP site handle

[TurfRuler]

Dats me PM me and let me know your NYRA/QP site handle

You got me there buddy, as much as I would like too, I don't know how, I'm so not caught up on this new technology, like PM'ing and what QP'ing is.

Other Berra's quotes:

http://www.rinkworks.com/said/yogiberra.shtml

[CincyHorseplayer]

I don't think the question was "Do you think public perception sees you as a gambler or investor??"!!!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Until I learned enough to become a player who makes profit, I gambled. Now I consider myself an investor. I read a post here about multi-track bets and consider that gambling. With the usurious takeouts starting at the most common level of bets (Win) now imposed it is very hard to make $; so I don't gamble now. I'm betting a lot fewer races than I did as a gambler. I bet only when I have a hedge. It's the right way for me. I realize that there is more than 1 reason to bet horses, and certainly gambling (the rush...or to put it another way, a vacation costs $, and you get pleasure but no financial reward) qualifies as a legitimate reason . I think that before we start questioning ourselves as to why we're in a losing streak or why we have a bunch of winners but are losing $ (Hey I'm as guilty as anyone else here with these problems), we should ask ourselves Am I gambling or am I investing. If you realize you're gambling (and that's OK) then accept the consequences. But if you get no pleasure in losing, then as a start of a long process, consider, not only the type of bets you make, but the tracks you play, and make adjustments if warranted. Any opinions or comments?


I think I'm seeing a lot of parallels to a thread I started so here's my answer.

If you've reached a level of proficiency,have won,and expect to win,you are an investor.

There are probably hundreds of ways to describe gambling so I won't bother.

I have been more successful betting less races per card,at multiple tracks.I have also been successful at being immersed in a single track.But lately(a handful of times over the last 2 seasons) a single track has meant being handcuffed and isolated.It's a matter of perspective.

I don't get the last part of your post.

If I'm gambling I should accept the consequences.But if I am investing and am in a losing streak but deriving no pleasure from it........the post tails off regarding a conclusion.

Other than to reevaluate.

Well personally I've been doing exactly that for the last 2 weeks!

[markgoldie]

MarkG, here I go:

Speculator: Someone who fancies himself as investor and risks considerable money in a commercial or financial venture with the hope that his investment would appreciate in value and earn him a large reward in future.

Note: A speculator has NOTHING to do with betting on horses, his investments are in "ventures". The nearest one can imagine a speculator may come to horse racing is if he invests in a horse with the hope of selling it at a huge profit later.

From Merriam Webster Dictionary of English Language:
Main Entry: 1ven·ture
Pronunciation: \ˈven(t)-shər\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ven·tured; ven·tur·ing \ˈven(t)-sh(ə-)riŋ\
Etymology: Middle English venteren, by shortening & alteration from aventuren, from aventure adventure
Date: 15th century
transitive verb
1 : to expose to hazard : risk, gamble <ventured a buck or two on the race>

I would venture that we have a disagreement between yourself and Merriam-Webster.

[misscashalot]

...
I don't get the last part of your post.

If I'm gambling I should accept the consequences.But if I am investing and am in a losing streak but deriving no pleasure from it........the post tails off regarding a conclusion.

Other than to reevaluate.

Well personally I've been doing exactly that for the last 2 weeks!


........ If you realize you're gambling (and that's OK) then accept the consequences. But if you get no pleasure in losing, then as a start of a long process, consider, not only the type of bets you make, but the tracks you play, and make adjustments if warranted.

[speculus]

From Merriam Webster Dictionary of English Language:
Main Entry: 1ven·ture
Pronunciation: \ˈven(t)-shər\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ven·tured; ven·tur·ing \ˈven(t)-sh(ə-)riŋ\
Etymology: Middle English venteren, by shortening & alteration from aventuren, from aventure adventure
Date: 15th century
transitive verb
1 : to expose to hazard : risk, gamble <ventured a buck or two on the race>

I would venture that we have a disagreement between yourself and Merriam-Webster.

From dictionary.com

spec⋅u⋅late  [spek-yuh-leyt] Show IPA
–verb (used without object), -lat⋅ed, -lat⋅ing.
1. to engage in thought or reflection; meditate (often fol. by on, upon, or a clause).
2. to indulge in conjectural thought.
3. to engage in any business transaction involving considerable risk or the chance of large gains, esp. to buy and sell commodities, stocks, etc., in the expectation of a quick or very large profit.

You are now saved from the trouble of speculating [1] which reference I prefer when logged onto the net, and why I defined the word 'speculator' the way I did, though I must admit I was wrong when I tried to exclude betting on horses from speculation, if it is "business" for someone. :p

[twindouble]

I've been "gambling" on the horses for many years. The better your "gambling" skills the potential of making money increases. It's all semantics, investing, investor, well what every you want to call it. There's no question in my mind, the degree of risk in horse racing is high compared to other forms of "investments". Gambling is a operative word, always has been and always will be. Although what I do like about this thread, those that say horse racing isn't gambling it's an investment, gives the sport a more respectable appeal. Hey, anything positive said about racing I'm all for so from now on I'll say, "I'm investing in a race." :ThmbUp:

[twindouble]

I've been "gambling" on the horses for many years. The better your "gambling" skills the potential of making money increases. It's all semantics, investing, investor, well what every you want to call it. There's no question in my mind, the degree of risk in horse racing is high compared to other forms of "investments". Gambling is a operative word, always has been and always will be. Although what I do like about this thread, those that say horse racing isn't gambling it's an investment, gives the sport a more respectable appeal. Hey, anything positive said about racing I'm all for so from now on I'll say, "I'm investing in a race." :ThmbUp:

I just have to add, don't tell your banker your investing in horse races. :ThmbDown:

[misscashalot]

I just have to add, don't tell your banker your investing in horse races. :ThmbDown:
:D

[Hanover1]

I am going to speculate about upcoming BC races. I plan on gambling on several entries. Hope my investment pays off. My bookie does not like my hypothesis. His idea is to bet with him instead. My thoughts are to stiff him, but that would be cheating, as he sees it. I will ruminate awhile then rehash my choices. As I see it, there are many choices.

[Robert Fischer]

we're all "horselplayers"

a number of ways to view yourself or others under the big umbrella

some of us are openly gamblers - we play for the high, it's "entertainment" we bet till we lose or hit a big one..

some view it as investment, we expect to win, manage our bankroll in a manner no different from stocks, real estate etc...

and there are a million other names we call ourselves (for example i'm a nutjob who thinks i am a 'scientist' in the field of instrumentalism) :lol::lol:

then you have outside perception(stigma?) - for which the vast majority view all horseplayers as gamblers. Women sure tend to view us as gamblers although they are occasionally tolerant to horseplaying in the past tense if profit be involved.:p

[castaway01]

Wagering on horse race outcomes is gambling. Calling it "investing" is just a semantic tool to make those who feel insecure thinking of themselves as "gamblers" feel better.

[Robert Fischer]

Wagering on horse race outcomes is gambling. Calling it "investing" is just a semantic tool to make those who feel insecure thinking of themselves as "gamblers" feel better.

that same thinking would label a "blind" stock decision (maybe with a role of the dice, or maybe a blindfold and point method) as being an "investment".
Not saying that you are wrong(accepted meanings like gambling and horseracing are by definition one of the correct answers), just that connotation by association isn't always accurate.

[Cratos]

I am a proud gambler on horseracing and horseracing is just one of my investments that I speculate on to make a profit.

Call it what you want, but “if it walks like a duck and quack like a duck; it is a duck.” Paraphrasing, if you are taking risk you are a gambler.

[twindouble]

Wagering on horse race outcomes is gambling. Calling it "investing" is just a semantic tool to make those who feel insecure thinking of themselves as "gamblers" feel better.

I've meet many good handicappers that went by the wayside for one reason only, they didn't know how to "gamble". When good opportunities were their they didn't know enough to take advantage of it, primarily because they put unnecessary limits on themselves when came to wagering including the type of wagers. It's one thing to have some control over what your doing, it's another to go to extremes.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I only gamble on love.I invest in horses.;)

[badcompany]

"Hey, Bob, I'm going to the 'Investing Window.' Do you want me to make an 'Investment' for you?"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[NoDayJob]

People who wager on the outcome of horse races. and win consistently. are not
gamblers or investors. They are simply successful speculators. This would
apply to anything that involves betting on the outcome of an event. Horse
racing can be very lucrative because your money is turned over many, many
times in day, especially with the number of tracks that are now available. The
more time you spend learning this craft the better are your odds of becoming a
winning speculator.

[badcompany]

The guys in the "investor" camp are basically engaged in mental masturbation.

Deep down, they're ashamed of being gamblers. So, they adopt a "respectable" euphemism that makes them feel better about themselves.

[twindouble]

People who wager on the outcome of horse races. and win consistently. are not
gamblers or investors. They are simply successful speculators. This would
apply to anything that involves betting on the outcome of an event. Horse
racing can be very lucrative because your money is turned over many, many
times in day, especially with the number of tracks that are now available. The
more time you spend learning this craft the better are your odds of becoming a
winning speculator.

Like I said, call whatever you want or paint it any color, the fact remains the negative connotation of gambling in your mind won't go away. Why? Because it's been that way from day one and it's actually a form of gambling. By the way what isn't? I know many that gamble on the stock market and like racing it's a win lose proposition.

After thought.

Speaking of speculators, the economy crashed because of corrupt speculating, raping the tax payers including our retirement programs but my racing bankroll is still healthy. So, being a "speculator" today is nothing to be proud of in the majority of Americans minds. I would rather be considered a proud gambler and I didn't cheat the game like others do with a much lower takeout via rebates.

[castaway01]

Like I said, call whatever you want or paint it any color, the fact remains the negative connotation of gambling in your mind won't go away. Why? Because it's been that way from day one and it's actually a form of gambling. By the way what isn't? I know many that gamble on the stock market and like racing it's a win lose proposition.

After thought.

Speaking of speculators, the economy crashed because of corrupt speculating, raping the tax payers including our retirement programs but my racing bankroll is still healthy. So, being a "speculator" today is nothing to be proud of in the majority of Americans minds. I would rather be considered a proud gambler and I didn't cheat the game like others do with a much lower takeout via rebates.

Well said sir.

[Robert Fischer]

gambling and investing are two different words that can be used to describe the SAME GENERAL ACTIVITY depending on how that activity is performed.

The general activity type does not define whether the specific act is gambling or investing. :bang:


The difference between gambling and investing:




amount of research conducted
odds of being profitable

emotions such as greed or fear
the length/relevance of activity (long term plan?)
amount of motivation due to entertainment or compulsion




Gamble definition
To engage in any activity in which money is put at risk for the purpose of making a profit, and which is characterized by some or most of the following (in approximately descending order of importance): little or no research has been conducted; the odds are unfavorable; the behavior is risk-seeking; an unsystematic approach is being taken; emotions such as greed and fear play a role; the activity is a discrete event or series of discrete events not done as part of a long-term plan; the activity is significantly motivated by entertainment or compulsion; ownership of something tangible is not involved; no net economic effect results.



InvestDefinitionTo engage in any activity in which money is put at risk for the purpose of making a profit, and which is characterized by some or most of the following (in approximately descending order of importance): sufficient research has been conducted; the odds are favorable; the behavior is risk-averse; a systematic approach is being taken; emotions such as greed and fear play no role; the activity is ongoing and done as part of a long-term plan; the activity is not motivated solely by entertainment or compulsion; ownership of something tangible is involved; a net positive economic effect results.

[Robert Goren]

Investing,IMO, when actually own something. If you buy some stock then you a piece, be it very small, of that company. That is investing. If you sell short you do not own anything so you are gambling. How profitable or how much work you put into it has nothing to do with. If make money then you are a winner a term which I much prefer to investor. If someone gives you grief over betting over wager on horses just tell them that you are a winner and ask them if their stock purchases makes a winner or a sorry-assed loser.

[twindouble]

Robert; A winning ticket worth $2.10 or five grand is tangible and has an economic effect on the winner, the tracks and all involved in racing including losing tickets. All gambling money effects the economy in one way or another, not just the individuals that take risks, "gamble or speculate."

So after your post we are back where we started. Semantics. Horse players are labeled as gamblers. Today speculators and Wall Street Bankers are labeled as thieves and rightfully so.

[castaway01]

I've meet many good handicappers that went by the wayside for one reason only, they didn't know how to "gamble". When good opportunities were their they didn't know enough to take advantage of it, primarily because they put unnecessary limits on themselves when came to wagering including the type of wagers. It's one thing to have some control over what your doing, it's another to go to extremes.

See, again, semantics, but my point was that a lot of people try to say they are "investing" when life is a gamble...that's how I feel, and I haven't seen any proof otherwise.

[castaway01]

The guys in the "investor" camp are basically engaged in mental masturbation.

Deep down, they're ashamed of being gamblers. So, they adopt a "respectable" euphemism that makes them feel better about themselves.

that's what I said already, though in a more polite way. I don't think it's all "masturbation" and there is a smart way to wager on horses, but they're not consistent enough to make it more than a "gamble", really.

[raybo]

gambling and investing are two different words that can be used to describe the SAME GENERAL ACTIVITY depending on how that activity is performed.

The general activity type does not define whether the specific act is gambling or investing. :bang:


The difference between gambling and investing:





amount of research conducted
odds of being profitable


emotions such as greed or fear
the length/relevance of activity (long term plan?)
amount of motivation due to entertainment or compulsion








Gamble definition
To engage in any activity in which money is put at risk for the purpose of making a profit, and which is characterized by some or most of the following (in approximately descending order of importance): little or no research has been conducted; the odds are unfavorable; the behavior is risk-seeking; an unsystematic approach is being taken; emotions such as greed and fear play a role; the activity is a discrete event or series of discrete events not done as part of a long-term plan; the activity is significantly motivated by entertainment or compulsion; ownership of something tangible is not involved; no net economic effect results.



InvestDefinitionTo engage in any activity in which money is put at risk for the purpose of making a profit, and which is characterized by some or most of the following (in approximately descending order of importance): sufficient research has been conducted; the odds are favorable; the behavior is risk-averse; a systematic approach is being taken; emotions such as greed and fear play no role; the activity is ongoing and done as part of a long-term plan; the activity is not motivated solely by entertainment or compulsion; ownership of something tangible is involved; a net positive economic effect results.


There ya go!! I'm not a gambler and never have been, but I have invested in horse racing for several profitable years in a row now. If you know you're going to show net profit at the end of each year, there's no way you can call that gambling.

[twindouble]

Look, there's good gamblers and bad gamblers, good investors and bad investors. Don't matter what you call them, one sucks the other don't. Simple as that. You'll never shake loose the thinking that horse players are gamblers by the greater majority of our population. Live with it and except it like I did. Whatever makes you feel good. I'm not ashamed to be called a gambler and I love to do it. Case closed, for me anyway.

[Hanover1]

Look, there's good gamblers and bad gamblers, good investors and bad investors. Don't matter what you call them, one sucks the other don't. Simple as that. You'll never shake loose the thinking that horse players are gamblers by the greater majority of our population. Live with it and except it like I did. Whatever makes you feel good. I'm not ashamed to be called a gambler and I love to do it. Case closed, for me anyway.
It simply is what it is, risk vs risk. I started playing cards on the backside as a youngster, while learning how to train horses. For a good while, I was poor at both. After learning how, ansd why I would lose consistently, I learned why others won consistently, and no, cheating was not involved. It was about learning the level of risk one is willing to take in order to win, i.e. entering claiming races, or bluffing a 2 card draw and going all in. Its about risk, and satisfaction.

[TurfRuler]

It simply is what it is, risk vs risk. I started playing cards on the backside as a youngster, while learning how to train horses. For a good while, I was poor at both. After learning how, ansd why I would lose consistently, I learned why others won consistently, and no, cheating was not involved. It was about learning the level of risk one is willing to take in order to win, i.e. entering claiming races, or bluffing a 2 card draw and going all in. Its about risk, and satisfaction.

Oh what fun it was in my early days playing cards for money, with my best friends, shooting signals in order to win over other's that had their own signals until I realized that the reason that I lost all of my money was that the players against me had better eyesight and could see the card reflected in my hands. :mad: :cool:

Les MacCan and Eddie Harris "The Universal Prisoner" makes his own bars.

Stanley Clark "Life is But a Game" and all you do is choose.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I've stood at the urinals in River Downs bathrooms during an exceptionally rainy spring "Gambling" on which tree was going to slide down the hill across the street.I've been at pool halls "Gambling" on which schlep the drunk floozy at the other end of the place would go home with.Some tried and true and fun gambling with bettable outcomes!!


But you watch enough horse races and win more often than not,is it really gambling??

That's something HANA needs to work on.It will always be gambling til we get a track funded pension plan for the diehards:cool:

[speculus]

Investing,IMO, when actually own something. If you buy some stock then you a piece, be it very small, of that company. That is investing. If you sell short you do not own anything so you are gambling. ....
So buyer of stock is investor and seller is a gambler? :bang:

[twindouble]

I've stood at the urinals in River Downs bathrooms during an exceptionally rainy spring "Gambling" on which tree was going to slide down the hill across the street.I've been at pool halls "Gambling" on which schlep the drunk floozy at the other end of the place would go home with.Some tried and true and fun gambling with bettable outcomes!!


But you watch enough horse races and win more often than not,is it really gambling??

That's something HANA needs to work on.It will always be gambling til we get a track funded pension plan for the diehards:cool:

Good gamblers are natural handicappers in many things in life including human behavior. Everyone handicaps in one way or another but some lack the common sense needed to succeed.

[badcompany]

There ya go!! I'm not a gambler and never have been, but I have invested in horse racing for several profitable years in a row now. If you know you're going to show net profit at the end of each year, there's no way you can call that gambling.

How exactly do you KNOW you're going to show a profit?

You also conveniently didn't highlight the part that said, "Ownership of something tangible is involved."

I can understand calling a horse owner an investor, but, a guy who simply bets on other peoples' horses running around a track is a gambler.

[raybo]

How exactly do you KNOW you're going to show a profit?

You also conveniently didn't highlight the part that said, "Ownership of something tangible is involved."

I can understand calling a horse owner an investor, but, a guy who simply bets on other peoples' horses running around a track is a gambler.

I suppose I'm "backfitting" :bang:, the last 6 years (except 1 year that I took a breather and didn't wager at all) have been profitable years, and I know that 2010 will be profitable as well.

The "Ownership of something tangible", is my method, I own it because I created it. My method forces a profit.

[badcompany]

I suppose I'm "backfitting" :bang:, the last 6 years (except 1 year that I took a breather and didn't wager at all) have been profitable years, and I know that 2010 will be profitable as well.

The "Ownership of something tangible", is my method, I own it because I created it. My method forces a profit.

You know you're going to be profitable in 2010 the same way the big banks knew that the price of housing would always rise. We're seeing how well that assumption worked out.

Listen, if you want to call yourself an investor, God Bless, but, as others have pointed out, the IRS, the rest of society, and even most horseplayers disagree.

[TurfRuler]

Bankers and Investment pros forgot one famous quotation “What goes up, must come down.” And people like Alan Greenspan believed that people in this circle were not crooks.

Lyrics from Alan Parsons project:

What goes up must come down.
What must rise must fall...
And what goes on in your life
Is writing on the wall!
If all things must fall,
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass,
Even a miracle won't last.
What goes up must come down.
What must stand alone?
And what goes on in your mind
Is turning into stone!
If all things must fall
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass,
Even a pyramid won't last...

How can you be so sure?
How do you know what the end will endure?
How can you be so sure
That the wonders you've made in your life
Will be seen
By the millions who'll follow to visit the site
Of your dream?

What goes up must come down...
What goes 'round must come 'round...
What's been lost must be found...

[castaway01]

that same thinking would label a "blind" stock decision (maybe with a role of the dice, or maybe a blindfold and point method) as being an "investment".
Not saying that you are wrong(accepted meanings like gambling and horseracing are by definition one of the correct answers), just that connotation by association isn't always accurate.

I don't recall defining what an "investment" was in the two sentences I wrote. You must have confused my post with someone else's. I defined gambling, and believe horse racing falls in that category.

[raybo]

You know you're going to be profitable in 2010 the same way the big banks knew that the price of housing would always rise. We're seeing how well that assumption worked out.

Listen, if you want to call yourself an investor, God Bless, but, as others have pointed out, the IRS, the rest of society, and even most horseplayers disagree.

Whatever, but you either didn't see it or chose to ignore the last sentence in my post. This takes the "gamble" out of my investment. I know my hit rate and my wagering method guarantees that unless my hit rate declines dramatically, and remains in decline for a very lengthy period of time, I will make a profit, as long as I remain disciplined in my method. I went through a period where I did not remain disciplined in my method , fortunately I recognized that something was wrong before my long term profit became a long term loss. That was the reason that I took a year off and did some investigating to find out what was going on. It was my failure to remain disciplined, not my method. I won't make that mistake again.

What you think or what anyone else thinks is irrelevant to me, there is definately a marked difference between gambling and investing.

[DeanT]

If I know by looking at same store sales, trading patterns before news and option market fluctuations before the same news, I see a pattern whereby positive news has been signalled correctly 77% of the time. Going long on that for the last ten years has supplied me with a 1.55ROI. For that I would be described as a super-sharp investor and might even have a feature in a magazine about my methods.

If I know by looking at track grooming methods, making a track profile and backing only horses who look to fit that profile, that I have a 1.55ROI for the last ten years I am called a degenerate horse bettor.

I don't think there is much difference in either.

[Robert Goren]

There is not.

[DeanT]

This takes the "gamble" out of my investment. I know my hit rate and my wagering method guarantees that unless my hit rate declines dramatically, and remains in decline for a very lengthy period of time, I will make a profit, as long as I remain disciplined in my method. I went through a period where I did not remain disciplined in my method , fortunately I recognized that something was wrong before my long term profit became a long term loss. That was the reason that I took a year off and did some investigating to find out what was going on. It was my failure to remain disciplined, not my method. I won't make that mistake again.


Back when I was trading there was an interesting phenomenon I noticed. In the small cap markets for internet stocks sometimes news was released at about 3:30PM. The stock might move from 30 cents to 40 cents at close. But a funny thing happened: The next morning these stocks would rocket on pre-orders. At 9:30AM they would open at 55 and run to 75 cents til about 10AM, then they would sell off.

About three weeks of it happened, but after that period the stocks would run up at 3:30PM to close by about 75% or so. The next morning sell orders would abound and the stock would open lower.

Sharp traders went long at 3:30 and sold the next morning before ten until things changed. Then they would buy at 3:30 and hit a bid at 3:59. The cycle would continue as the public caught on. Extra sharp traders would go short at that time, then look to cover in the morning.

How this is different from someone noticing and betting a wide speed bias at Mountaineer for two cards and fading inside closers, and then abandoning it as wide speed was overbet is beyond me. To me it is exactly the same thing.

Good on ya for taking the time off and revising the method. That is what sharp horse investors do. :)

[badcompany]

Whatever, but you either didn't see it or chose to ignore the last sentence in my post. This takes the "gamble" out of my investment. I know my hit rate and my wagering method guarantees that unless my hit rate declines dramatically, and remains in decline for a very lengthy period of time, I will make a profit, as long as I remain disciplined in my method. I went through a period where I did not remain disciplined in my method , fortunately I recognized that something was wrong before my long term profit became a long term loss. That was the reason that I took a year off and did some investigating to find out what was going on. It was my failure to remain disciplined, not my method. I won't make that mistake again.

What you think or what anyone else thinks is irrelevant to me, there is definately a marked difference between gambling and investing.

You torpedoed your own argument. How do know this won't happen again, and how do you know the next time it won't be your method and not your discipline. The game is always changing, right?

[raybo]

Back when I was trading there was an interesting phenomenon I noticed. In the small cap markets for internet stocks sometimes news was released at about 3:30PM. The stock might move from 30 cents to 40 cents at close. But a funny thing happened: The next morning these stocks would rocket on pre-orders. At 9:30AM they would open at 55 and run to 75 cents til about 10AM, then they would sell off.

About three weeks of it happened, but after that period the stocks would run up at 3:30PM to close by about 75% or so. The next morning sell orders would abound and the stock would open lower.

Sharp traders went long at 3:30 and sold the next morning before ten until things changed. Then they would buy at 3:30 and hit a bid at 3:59. The cycle would continue as the public caught on. Extra sharp traders would go short at that time, then look to cover in the morning.

How this is different from someone noticing and betting a wide speed bias at Mountaineer for two cards and fading inside closers, and then abandoning it as wide speed was overbet is beyond me. To me it is exactly the same thing.

Good on ya for taking the time off and revising the method. That is what sharp horse investors do. :)

You're exactly right, Dean. Turning horse racing from gambling into investing can be done, with hard work, some better than average intelligence, and discipline. It's not easily done, as proven by the fact that very few players are profitable, long term. Many gamblers tend to follow in the footsteps of alcoholics or drug addicts in that they want everyone to be labeled the same thing so they don't feel so bad about themselves.

I, for one, don't want to be labeled but when some one tries to label me something I'm not, I just consider the source, in light of the statement I made in the last sentence of the previous paragraph.

In my signature I say that horse racing is just like the stock market except that in horse racing you can go broke much faster. That, IMO, is a true statement due to the immediate gains or losses one encounters in horse racing vs what happens with most stock market investing, ie, the fact that most investments in the market take a period of time to produce either significant gain or loss. Also, IMO, gamblers would be better off investing in the market, they'd last longer.:D

[raybo]

You torpedoed your own argument. How do know this won't happen again, and how do you know the next time it won't be your method and not your discipline. The game is always changing, right?

Hey dude, pick on someone else to call a liar. I'm done with you.

[TurfRuler]

Good gamblers are natural handicappers in many things in life including human behavior. Everyone handicaps in one way or another but some lack the common sense needed to succeed.

Who goes to the library to pick a fight with the librarian? When I travel with my books to the library that I have already checked out, I let them know that I have books, they check the computer anyway to see if they are checked out. It never fails. When I questioned the workers there on whether they have a copy of an unabridged version of a book, they have to really think whether unabridged is the whole version or the abridged version. Using the computers, they are constantly giving warnings on whether you are using your own card number or someone elses, which is against the rules, like you are stealing the silver ware from the dinner table after being invited to dinner. Who picks a fight with a librarian? This thread. like a lot of others, reminds me of the many confrontations I face going to the library. Helping my daughter with her homework, the librarian are constantly telling me to shhsss....because the finely tuned instrument of my modulated voice carries....when they hear it, they turn in to she-bears trying to protect their young. You should see the contortions that they make, every time I talk on the phone, it's like I am broadcasting to a thousand people, they surround me......

[ranchwest]

When I click on "Recall Today's Bets", I've never had a box pop up and say "Did you gamble? Did you invest? Did you speculate?" It just tells me how much money I've got. I really don't give a flip whether I'm semantically correct.

[Investorater]

Speaking for myself, I'm strictly a gambler.:)

[Dave Schwartz]

TurfRuler,

LOL - I can see them coming for you now!


Dave

[thoroughbred]

Until I learned enough to become a player who makes profit, I gambled. Now I consider myself an investor. I read a post here about multi-track bets and consider that gambling. With the usurious takeouts starting at the most common level of bets (Win) now imposed it is very hard to make $; so I don't gamble now. I'm betting a lot fewer races than I did as a gambler. I bet only when I have a hedge. It's the right way for me. I realize that there is more than 1 reason to bet horses, and certainly gambling (the rush...or to put it another way, a vacation costs $, and you get pleasure but no financial reward) qualifies as a legitimate reason . I think that before we start questioning ourselves as to why we're in a losing streak or why we have a bunch of winners but are losing $ (Hey I'm as guilty as anyone else here with these problems), we should ask ourselves Am I gambling or am I investing. If you realize you're gambling (and that's OK) then accept the consequences. But if you get no pleasure in losing, then as a start of a long process, consider, not only the type of bets you make, but the tracks you play, and make adjustments if warranted. Any opinions or comments?

Here's a practical hypothetical that will put in perspective how the world at large would decide whether it's investing or gambling.

Assume you are late for work, and your boss asks you why.

Answer number 1. I was meeting with my broker and it took more time than I anticipated.

Answer number 2. I was meeting with my bookie and it took more time than I anticipated.

If the average boss accepts either answer acceptable then horse race betting is investing. If not, it is considered gambling.

LOL

[raybo]

Here's a practical hypothetical that will put in perspective how the world at large would decide whether it's investing or gambling.

Assume you are late for work, and your boss asks you why.

Answer number 1. I was meeting with my broker and it took more time than I anticipated.

Answer number 2. I was meeting with my bookie and it took more time than I anticipated.

If the average boss accepts either answer acceptable then horse race betting is investing. If not, it is considered gambling.

LOL

The thread creator never mentioned "how the world at large would decide whether it's investing or gambling". What your boss thinks of it has no bearing on whether you're a gambler or an investor. You decide that.

[CincyHorseplayer]

The thread creator never mentioned "how the world at large would decide whether it's investing or gambling". What your boss thinks of it has no bearing on whether you're a gambler or an investor. You decide that.

Don't bother Ray.They are sheep.And the world at large is their conscience!!:cool:

[DeanT]

Tuesday was a good day of investing for me.

Wednesday was a bad day of gambling.

Hoping Thursday I am investing again. :)

[thoroughbred]

The thread creator never mentioned "how the world at large would decide whether it's investing or gambling". What your boss thinks of it has no bearing on whether you're a gambler or an investor. You decide that.

Raybo,

The hypothetical boss interchange was supposed to be a joke with some real life application. If you can't, without hesitation, tell the boss that you were meeting with your bookie, then you have "decided" it's not investing, otherwise you wouldn't hesitate to tell him.

[misscashalot]

Raybo,

The hypothetical boss interchange was supposed to be a joke with some real life application. If you can't, without hesitation, tell the boss that you were meeting with your bookie, then you have "decided" it's not investing, otherwise you wouldn't hesitate to tell him.

What the world or your boss thinks has no relevancy to my original post. If your livelihood (all or in part) is derived by winning consistently then betting is investing. If you lose more than you win, over a given period, then you're gambling. As far as the argument about telling or not telling your boss is concerned. Everybody, who doesn't bet horses, knows that people who play horses are bums:cool: No? But insiders who derived income from Madoff were smart cookies, and proudly told their bosses they were late because they were meeting with Uncle Bernie. The point is that there's no point to the argument here about telling your boss anything, unless your boss is irresolute as you are. If you don't like the word irresolute then try enlightened. Either way it doesn't make a diff what he (or she) thinks.