Backup Systems

[boxcar]

Ladies and Gents:

I'm in the market for a new backup system, so that hopefully I'll be able to dump Carbonite. I'm considering a product called ClickFree? Is anyone here using it? If so, how do you like it?

Thanks,
Boxcar

[wilderness]

The majority of Windows-Users are storing most of the non-OS files in the "My Documents folder" (by default.)

Personally, I very rarely use that folder (or many other default folder installs for both data and softwares) and have a complex directory/folder structure that I've been using for nearly fifteen years.

I've been doing extensive monthly backups (first to CD and later to DVD) for nearly ten years.

It would be nice (and very useful) to utilize a backup index which worked off the "a" attribute for DOS file names, however it really isn't necessary.

I've a couple of folders in which I merely copy the contents each month.
Many of my monthly archived files are very large TIF-image files and once they are backedup, the TIF's are removed from my machine and much smaller JPG's are used. The JPG's are created the same time as the TIF's and as a result, the JPG's contain their "created date" attribute, which is also used to reference the TIF backup.
I also keep a backup file of the "created date" attributes for these same backedup data files.

[boxcar]

The majority of Windows-Users are storing most of the non-OS files in the "My Documents folder" (by default.)

Personally, I very rarely use that folder (or many other default folder installs for both data and softwares) and have a complex directory/folder structure that I've been using for nearly fifteen years.

I've been doing extensive monthly backups (first to CD and later to DVD) for nearly ten years.

It would be nice (and very useful) to utilize a backup index which worked off the "a" attribute for DOS file names, however it really isn't necessary.

I've a couple of folders in which I merely copy the contents each month.
Many of my monthly archived files are very large TIF-image files and once they are backedup, the TIF's are removed from my machine and much smaller JPG's are used. The JPG's are created the same time as the TIF's and as a result, the JPG's contain their "created date" attribute, which is also used to reference the TIF backup.
I also keep a backup file of the "created date" attributes for these same backedup data files.

Thanks, Don, for your reply. It seems that great minds think alike because, like you, I use virtually none of the Windows' defaults. But I do want an easy hassle-free way to backup selected files and folders. Carbonite is okay, but their software can get glitchy. Overall I'd rate them a B+ or so.

I also have a USB external Toshiba drive along with its companion Shadow backup software. This system I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy. :) The software is horrendous.

But an online friend of mine told me about ClickFree, which is also a USB external drive with its own, supposedly, very smart built-in software. I've read decent things about it but I was just wondering if anyone here is actually using this product. My friend plans on using it, but doesn't have it yet.

Thanks again,
Boxcar

[hcap]

I have an external usb drive as well. Iomega 500 gig. The backup software provided is also clunky. Takes a while to do a full backup. Do not use ClickFree.

But if you want to backup selected files, you can use windows explorer to copy directly to your external. i do it all the time. Whole folders as well.

[hazzardm]

Last couple years I have used Acronis TrueImage 10 product. I think current rev is 11 or 12. Allows backup at the partion/drive/folder or file level. Create full or incremental backups. I typically do full backups periodically. It has worked very well, even in the case of having to restore boot drives.

[boxcar]

I have an external usb drive as well. Iomega 500 gig. The backup software provided is also clunky. Takes a while to do a full backup. Do not use ClickFree.

But if you want to backup selected files, you can use windows explorer to copy directly to your external. i do it all the time. Whole folders as well.

Gosh, 'cap, I can't believe you'd do backups that way. Too time-consuming for me. In this day and age, backups should be easy, quick, painless and seamless. Carbonite, pretty much meets three of these requirements, which is why I'd give them an A- or B+. The "pain" can be felt when you're trying to restore a lot of files to your drive, such as I had to do recently. Once the restoration process is finished, getting the software into backup mode may require an uninstall and then a re-install.

Another little pain with them is that for some reason (I can't begin to understand why), Carbonite won't automatically backup certain types of files -- one of these being files with .zip extensions. And I have a ton of these. The only workaround for this is that you must go into the folder and right-click on each file (or do this in "batch" mode) and tell Carbonite to back it up. While this seems like such an unnecessary inconvenience, it isn't too bad if all the files in the folder have this kind of extension, but when they don't and you have to manually cherry-pick those files, then that's something else.

But other than these relatively insignificant hassles, Cabonite does a pretty decent job in performing backups automatically. Of course, you have to initially tell the software what files you want backed up on a routine basis. But after that, it's done on an automatic basis, except for those .zip files.

I guess I'll wait until my buddy has a Click-Free unit and if he likes it, I'll spring for one.

Boxcar

[pandy]

Carbonite isn't perfect but when I had to restore my computer to its original settings, Carbonite brought back everything except video files and emails.

[hcap]

Box, you did say....
"But I do want an easy hassle-free way to backup selected files and folders." Just using explorer does just that. Restoring those files and folders is just the reverse. Granted it is rather primitive, but it works. For more sophisticated incremental backups you may want to try.

http://www.barracudaware.com/products/desktop-backup

No first hand experience, but was told it was quite good. Not an online solution. Instead to a USB external.

[Dave Schwartz]

Here is the system I have:

1. First, I use a software product called "InBack."
It allows me to create "projects." A project can be a folder, a set of folders, or even folders with individual file specs.

Each of these "projects" can then be backed up "on demand," with a single click.

I do not backup everything, but rather just the data. Thus, instead of backing up Quick Books, for example, I just back up the DATA within Quick Books.

In addition, projects can be fired as a "batch."

Also, it keeps a number of previous backups for each project. For software projects I keep the last 20, while projects like "My Documents" are set to store only the last 5.

All files are stored in a zip-compatible format to reduce space.

My backup program actually grabs data from multiple computers on our network.

There are many such project-oriented backup tools out there, most for between $29 and $99.



2. I use a (free) task management program to "fire" the backups.
Personally, I use Freebyte's Task Scheduler. It is far easier to use (in my opinion) than Microsoft's "Scheduler."

So, on Monday morning at 2am my Monday batch file makes backups of about 10 projects. On Tuesday morning, I back up another 10-20 projects. Some projects are backed up every day, others only once or twice a week. Remember that these are in addition to any manual (i.e. on-demand) backup of a project I do.

Backups that do not change often or are very large like horse racing data or music (I have a large music collection - about 1,300 albums) only back up a couple of times per month.



Where do I back up?
I backup to an external hard drive. For me, a 250gb drive is almost twice as much as I need. (The big projects like music and horse racing have their own drives.)

Guys that have been in the computer biz for a couple of decades (or more) are smart enough to use what we call a grandfather-father-son backup approach. You whipper-snappers may call it A-B-C.

Here's how it works:

You get 3 drives, labeled A-B-C. Once per week you take your external drive off the physical premises. So, in week 1, the "A" drive goes away. In week 2 the "B" drive goes away. In week 3 your "C" drive goes away and the "A" drive comes home This way you always have two backups off-premises and a "current" backup on premises.

The off-property backups are only used in the case of a major catastrophe (i.e. fire, hurricane, burglary, etc.). In which case you will lose a week of data at most. If that would sink your ship, then you use the daily version of A-B-C. Of course you may always add more letters of the alphabet.


One Last Comment
Backup systems that restore an entire hard drive are almost useless when push comes to shove. Inevitably, they are used when your C-Drive fails. Only then you find that you have to re-install all the software from scratch because the supposed-clone of your hard drive is not a true bootable drive.

In other words, you cannot simply insert the drive into the computer as the C-Drive and go purchase a new external drive. This is the litmus test for full-drive backups - can you install the drive and run without missing a beat? (I have never seen this work, although I have heard that some high-end disk images will accomplish it to a third drive.)

Just my experience.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[DJofSD]

HP MediaSmart Server running Windows Home Server. Check it out.

[DJofSD]

In other words, you cannot simply insert the drive into the computer as the C-Drive and go purchase a new external drive.That is exactly how you recover from a boot drive crash using Windows Home Server.

[DJofSD]

Micro Soft Technical brief about Windows Home Server Backup and Restore here. (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=196fe38c-df20-4e19-92ca-6bda7bec3ecb&DisplayLang=en)

[boxcar]

Carbonite isn't perfect but when I had to restore my computer to its original settings, Carbonite brought back everything except video files and emails.

That's interesting because it brought back my emails. (Of course, being a huge anti-Microsoft fan that I am :) , I use a little known email client that simply gets installed in the root directory.)

Pandy, if I get that Click-Free unit, I'll let you know how I like it. It supposedly does videos and email files, too -- in fact, files with over 400 different extensions.

Boxcar

[GameTheory]

In other words, you cannot simply insert the drive into the computer as the C-Drive and go purchase a new external drive. This is the litmus test for full-drive backups - can you install the drive and run without missing a beat? (I have never seen this work, although I have heard that some high-end disk images will accomplish it to a third drive.)I don't know about running the (external, cabled) backup drive as the C: drive, but the better image programs (like Acronis) allow you to restore the boot drive to a new drive pretty easily. You create a boot CD (which contains the imaging program) and keep that with your external backups offsite. Install the new internal drive to be the new C: drive, boot from the CD, and it restores from the external to the new internal. This process can also be used to upgrade to a larger C drive without reinstalling anything.

[Dave Schwartz]

GT,

Agrred. PROVIDING that the hardware has not changed "much."

My experience has been that when a system fails, is the time when most people upgrade their machines or even purchase a new one. In that case, unless you have a very barebones system - and certainly not an off-the-rack system (i.e. Dell, HP, etc.)...

... unless you have a very basic system, the drivers will be so screwed up that you will eventually re-install the OS.

Imagine purchasing a new Dell computer and trying to copy a disk image from a previous machine.


It's kind of like motherboard warranties... yes, we will replace your motherboard. Of course, you will be without your computer for about 6 weeks in the process. Nevermind... I'll just buy a new one.



Dave

[DJofSD]

Imagine purchasing a new Dell computer and trying to copy a disk image from a previous machine.

Won't work. The Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) will not tolerate the differences it will find. As implied, you have to start from scratch.

[GameTheory]

GT,

Agrred. PROVIDING that the hardware has not changed "much."

My experience has been that when a system fails, is the time when most people upgrade their machines or even purchase a new one. In that case, unless you have a very barebones system - and certainly not an off-the-rack system (i.e. Dell, HP, etc.)...That's a different problem. You need to have a solution to the "what if my C drive fails right now and I need to keep working ASAP" -- you're not going to go out an buy anything but a new C drive to keep going. The problem of upgrading from one thing to another exists whether or not you've had a failure. The PC Mover product discussed in another thread addresses that. (Acronis also has a product called Migrate that does the same thing.) Between the two types of programs you can cover pretty much any situation a home user would encounter for less than $100. (Acronis also has a high-end product that does what you're talking about called Universal Restore/True Echo that can restore to completely different hardware.)

What I do is I have an image backup that can restore the entire system from scratch (to similar hardware), and then incremental backups of the whole system that can be restored selectively. I keep one external drive of backups offsite which I swap with the active one every week or so. (Always-on online backup is a solution to the gap of "what about the last week's worth of work?" if your house burns down, at least with your most precious data, since it isn't practical to backup large amounts online.)

So if my house burns down, I'd buy a new system, do a clean install of the OS, and then reinstall all the apps and restore the backed up data as needed. Or use one of the migrate products to transfer everything over as-is if I was in a hurry.

[Dave Schwartz]

GT,

My plan is your plan. However, if you have a disk image backup how do you use that disk image with a completely new PC after a catastrophic event? You have no previous OS (that will work) to migrate to a new PC?

For that matter, how does one maintain disk image backups of (say) a 1tb drive? WHat I mean is, how long does such a disk image backup take?

[GameTheory]

GT,

My plan is your plan. However, if you have a disk image backup how do you use that disk image with a completely new PC after a catastrophic event? You have no previous OS (that will work) to migrate to a new PC?Well, in the cheapo solution, if we are migrating to something with incompatible hardware and the entire old system was destroyed/stolen (not just the hard drive) then we need to do a clean install of the OS (or not, as one will probably come with your new system) and not use the image stuff at all -- you use your normal incremental backups to restore your data, but you'll have to reinstall your apps, etc. But this is only in the case of a fire or something where everything is destroyed. Pretty rare. And even with different hardware, there is a decent chance your system will boot up and give you a chance to install some new drivers, etc -- generally you can make it to safe mode and uninstall your old drivers from there (unless Dell is somehow screwing you at this point).

Anyway, much more common is a simple hard drive failure. Now, even if you plan to upgrade to a completely new system, your old system will still work if the hard drive is replaced, right? It doesn't really follow that most people would go buy a whole new system when all they need is a $50 hard drive. So that's the first step -- get your old system working again. In the worst case scenario you just have to buy an extra drive. So what? They're cheap now, and you can then continue to use your old system as a second computer, or transfer your next extra drive to your new system when you're done restoring.

So you go get that hard drive, boot from the CD, and restore from the external. It will work perfectly because the hardware is the same. Use your incremental backups to fill in the gaps since your last image was taken (if you have them). Now if you want a new system, go ahead and get one. I don't see why the backup question has to revolve around the incompatible hardware question when that hardly ever happens.

For that matter, how does one maintain disk image backups of (say) a 1tb drive? WHat I mean is, how long does such a disk image backup take?The image would generally be compressed, so it is a copy and compress operation -- however long that takes for your amount of space (not that long). In most cases it would not be a sector for sector image as you can only restore those to hard drives with the exact same specs. You wouldn't take images all the time -- they are for when you need to get the whole OS working again so they don't have to be complete, just operational. Regular incremental backups are what you do daily, and can be used to get everything up-to-date after a restore.

[hazzardm]

Here is the system I have:

....

One Last Comment
Backup systems that restore an entire hard drive are almost useless when push comes to shove. Inevitably, they are used when your C-Drive fails. Only then you find that you have to re-install all the software from scratch because the supposed-clone of your hard drive is not a true bootable drive.

In other words, you cannot simply insert the drive into the computer as the C-Drive and go purchase a new external drive. This is the litmus test for full-drive backups - can you install the drive and run without missing a beat? (I have never seen this work, although I have heard that some high-end disk images will accomplish it to a third drive.)

Just my experience.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

On the contrary, with Acronis I have restored my system boot partition on to many different out-of-the-box hard drives, and they would all reboot immeadiately without having to reactivate the software already installed.

[GameTheory]

On the contrary, with Acronis I have restored my system boot partition on to many different out-of-the-box hard drives, and they would all reboot immeadiately without having to reactivate the software already installed.He was talking about restoring to a new drive connected also to a bunch of different hardware -- different MB, different video card, etc etc. More problematic, but doable most of the time. If only the hard drive is different, it works flawlessly and only takes a few minutes...

[Dave Schwartz]

On the contrary, with Acronis I have restored my system boot partition on to many different out-of-the-box hard drives, and they would all reboot immeadiately without having to reactivate the software already installed.

Really?

I had no idea that you could do this to a different computer. I always heard that the driver issues would create havoc.

Dave

[hazzardm]

Really?

I had no idea that you could do this to a different computer. I always heard that the driver issues would create havoc.

Dave

My bad on the description. I meant replacing boot drive in the same PC. Yes, drivers would be all wacked out. Sorry for confusion.

[fast4522]

I have always saved anything project or wanted to the second hard drive, everything is so easy now with the USB cable and the slave hard drive outside the computer. If the operating system gets bugged up I just restore it with a image. The slave hard drive can plug into any computer including the restored computer. To expound on this just a tad, I would advise anyone to install what you want so your computer is in a perfect state including anti-virus software updates and then make a image of your hard drive. Its like getting a cold, its no big deal at all if you know what to do. I am not talking big involvement here just real small investment of learning one software.