To What Extent Should The Breeders' Cup Become International?

[Bobzilla]

In recent weeks it's been interesting to read some of the differing views on this topic. I'm sure the BC is not unlike any other business and would like to expand its brand name as far as it can possibly reach. But at what point would the annual event cease to even remotely resemble what we've traditionally enjoyed as a Breeders' Cup event? Would some American based fans, many of whom having supported the BC passionately over its first 26 years, feel betrayed if the BC takes further steps to broaden international appeal?

For the record, I've always enjoyed the presence of international stars in the BC. It makes the races more interesting and adds an element of intrigue. I went heavy on Swain back in 98 and I'm still po'd over the ride. Euros have an important role in the BC since the beginning and have accounted for themselves rather nicely even when they were competing on dirt, a surface on which they feel they're at a disadvantage. Sheikh Albadhou (sp?), Arazi, Arcangues, Swain, Giants Causeway, Johannesburg, Sakhee, just to name a few who either won or ran a great race. Having read some interesting opinions on the subject in recent weeks, including some from board members across the Atlantic, I was interested to see what a poll might reveal.

I realize that the opinions of some may not exactly match any of the options I listed but I think most would have an opinion which would at least gravitate towards one of the options.

[nearco]

There really are two questions.
Do you think the BC should become more international?
Will the BC become more international?

I imagine most Americans will answer no to the first, for cultural reasons.

As to the second question, the Breeders Cup will continue to pursue more international. Why? Simple really.... $$$$$$$$$$$

The BC makes it's money on takeout. Now that the BC has gone to 2 days they've increased the handle, but it still looks like it will max out around $150m. That's a pretty paltry figure in the grand scheme of things.
The Japanese bet over $200m on the Japan Cup alone... that's just one race. The Brits and Irish pump close to $500m, half a billion, through bookies and tote on the Grand National. In Hong Kong, on their big international race day in Dec, they gamble over $100m on that race card... remember, that's just one city, with a population less than LA or NY.
The BC looks at figures like that and salivates. So they are exploring avenues to open up intermingling with international pools. But to have international wagering interest you need international horses.
International runners also bring international fans. An estimated 10,000 British and Irish fans attend the BC every year, esp when it's on the East coast. Imagine the influx of fans if a big name Japanese horse ran? When Deep Impact ran in the Arc, there were 5,000 Japanese that had flown half way around the world to be at Longchamp that day... that was for one horse. They dumped so much money into the PMU (French parimutuel) that they completely skewed the pools, he was a short as 1/9 at one point.

It's all about $$, and like any brand, once you've maxxed out a market you go after other markets. Everyone from Coca Cola to the NBA does just that.

[46zilzal]

Breeder's Cup changed the name to WORLD'S Championships and should live up to their OWN billing.

[fmolf]

There really are two questions.
Do you think the BC should become more international?
Will the BC become more international?

I imagine most Americans will answer no to the first, for cultural reasons.

As to the second question, the Breeders Cup will continue to pursue more international. Why? Simple really.... $$$$$$$$$$$

The BC makes it's money on takeout. Now that the BC has gone to 2 days they've increased the handle, but it still looks like it will max out around $150m. That's a pretty paltry figure in the grand scheme of things.
The Japanese bet over $200m on the Japan Cup alone... that's just one race. The Brits and Irish pump close to $500m, half a billion, through bookies and tote on the Grand National. In Hong Kong, on their big international race day in Dec, they gamble over $100m on that race card... remember, that's just one city, with a population less than LA or NY.
The BC looks at figures like that and salivates. So they are exploring avenues to open up intermingling with international pools. But to have international wagering interest you need international horses.
International runners also bring international fans. An estimated 10,000 British and Irish fans attend the BC every year, esp when it's on the East coast. Imagine the influx of fans if a big name Japanese horse ran? When Deep Impact ran in the Arc, there were 5,000 Japanese that had flown half way around the world to be at Longchamp that day... that was for one horse. They dumped so much money into the PMU (French parimutuel) that they completely skewed the pools, he was a short as 1/9 at one point.

It's all about $$, and like any brand, once you've maxxed out a market you go after other markets. Everyone from Coca Cola to the NBA does just that.
yes this is the way capitalism works.I am not a fan of the poly and most of europes classier horses do not race over it.I would not mind but i believe that win and your in races are not the way to go.Lots of horses are winnning them and deciding not to run anyway.I like the setup and i like the fact that the euros do come over to race although it makes the handicapping more difficult.Of course they did what racing always does and that is saturate the market,expanding to two days...next year i firmly believe that saturdays races from churchill will be the first breeders cup run during primetime with a 7:30 sat. night posttime on a major network or on espn to begin with.If it is a success then i think they will hold it there every year,or until other major tracks follow suit and install lights.I have long been a proponent of night racing and look to this as the main reason that racing has a tough time cultivating new and younger fans.In todays mediia driven quick results society young people need a place to congregate.The racetrack could be the place if marketed properly,using casino type strategies with nightclubs,bands,dollar beer and dogs etc...etc...It can be done!

[Bochall]

I voted for option 2 which was to alternate btw dirt and AWS, even tough I cannot stand AWS. It is here to stay and I had better just learn to win on it. I am all in favor of maintaining a global feel to the BC..who wouldn't be? However, I want the event to remain in the USA. Most readers of this site have cashed a BC ticket by using a Euro....Johannesburg was my best score as Repent got up for 2nd at 25-1 or so and the tri was nice.

[Linny]

The event will only be made more international by more racing on AW surfaces. More AW race will mean less US participation, at least from east coast connections.

[gm10]

You can't deny the American roots of the event.
But the world has changed in the last three decades. Horse racing is a far more global affair these days, and I fear that is a matter of time before the BC gets replaced by 'real' world championships whose location rotates over all continents. Where that leaves the BC, I'm not sure. Maybe it'll take the role of world championships every other 3 years, with the two years in between going to Europe/Dubai, and Far East/Oz.

But the BC are responding. I think they realize that they have to adapt to the new reality.

[joanied]

I voted for option one...call me narrow minded if you will...but to me, the BC event is American, should stay in America and should be run at tracks with dirt & turf...actually, IMO, IF we have to have synthetic, then every major track should have three ovals...one for each surface...which I doubt will ever happen. (If they did that, I would be the farm we'd see very few horses entered on the synthethic surfaces vs the dirt & turf)

Remaining in America and being hosted by tracks with dirt & turf ovals still keeps that international flavor...the European horses can still come here and do well... it's been prooven many of them can compete and win on dirt...if any of them can't run on dirt...they still have the turf races to enter.

This is a complicated issue and won't be taken to any conclusion anytime soon...let's see what happens next year at Churchill...my bet would be we'll have just as many Euro's coming here as we do now...if they don't like the Classic run on dirt...tough:) ...I don't see any Euro tracks putting in a dirt surface for American horses...I don't beleive we need to cater to the Euro's.

I also think the 'win and you are in' races need to go away...for obvious reasons, like mosty horses that win one, don't race in the BC anyway...the idea of these races is a crock of crap...

I also think the BC event needs to be brought back to one big day...an earlier post time and they can still use a couple of the new races they invented...the other ones we don't need anyway...it's not like they added more Eclipse Award catagories...so why bother with them?

My two cents

[rastajenk]

I'm the one who voted for the bottom choice. We were better off determining champions with a subjective vote based on a season's worth of accomplishments rather than the results of one race two months before the end of the year.

Globally, who cares? Does the North American Soccer League champ play the Euro champ to determine a "world" champ? Does baseball? Basketball? Golf? Tennis? Anything?

[Bochall]

How long will it be before Dubai throws down a bid that blows away anything any US track can offer? That's my fear--once you go foreign it will continue. Ditto for Japan. Nice points by joanied and rastajenk though.

[joanied]

I think some of us are getting away from what this poll is about...as far as I can see, it's not about naming Champions...as in, why bother with the BC when so many Eclipse awards are already sewn up before the BC is run...unless I am wrong, the poll is to gather opinions about the BC American vs the BC International....
like rastajenks post:

"I'm the one who voted for the bottom choice. We were better off determining champions with a subjective vote based on a season's worth of accomplishments rather than the results of one race two months before the end of the year.

Globally, who cares? Does the North American Soccer League champ play the Euro champ to determine a "world" champ? Does baseball? Basketball? Golf? Tennis? Anything?"

Agreed...our championships must be determined on the basis of an entire season...not just one race in the BC...but, again, unless I'm wrong, that is not the purpose of bobzillas poll.

I also agree about the international stuff...they can sure call it World Championships...we have crowned a few Euorpean horses with an Eclipse off a BC race...but I agree, and using baseball, football, soccer ect. as an example is perfect...this is still an American event.

Someone esle mentioned Dubia, Japan creating an event like the BC...fact is, Dubia already has one...but IMO...who cares...they could put up tons more money...but if they hold that on synthetic and/or grass...not many American horses will go...and you can bet they won't create a dirt surface just for our horses.
:)

[nearco]

Globally, who cares? Does the North American Soccer League champ play the Euro champ to determine a "world" champ? Does baseball? Basketball? Golf? Tennis? Anything?"


Yeah they do. The continental club champions in soccer play off to decide the world champion. They do it every year in Jan.
There is a Basketball world championship, both club ans national teams.
Baseball doesn't, but then who would they play... a Japanese team maybe? All the best players in the world are in the MLB. There is a world championship for national teams though.

The answers on the thread don't surprise me. But the BC is a business at this point, not a national institution. They will follow the money, like all good capitalists do.

[WinterTriangle]

I imagine most Americans will answer no to the first, for cultural reasons..

Not sure what that means?

Horses don't speak in languages, or have nationalities. I guess I don't see any "cultural" implications here????

Globally, who cares? Does the North American Soccer League champ play the Euro champ to determine a "world" champ? Does baseball? Basketball? Golf? Tennis? Anything?

One of the reasons I followed tennis avidly for years...and many others do........there's the US Open, the French Open, Wimbleton. Talk about a true international sport. It's wonderful.:ThmbUp:

For those who, like Joanie, want to claim it as a purely American event, it is indeed, american "sponsored", because it's on our soil. If we don't have it, then what event DO we have that is international?

Perhaps we should cease to send our horses to Dubai, or the the Japan Cup, etc. if we have *cultural reasons*? like Nearco mentioned? Still not sure what the heck that is :)

I look forward to getting to see horses come here from other places. Seeing horse that may have run in the Arc, the Epsom Derby, the Irish 1,000 etc. Why would anyone want to pass that up???

I think GM10 is correct......if we don't want world championship races, then somebody else will have them.

The sport of thoroughbred racing is certainly not unique to the United States.;) As a matter of fact, we were somewhat late to the party, as I've mentioned before. It's not like we invented it.

I love the differences in breeding/stamina, etc. and I got so much pleasure reading about the Arc, there is such a different sensibility there, it was even written about so differently.

I would think we would be *proud* to host an international event. It's about learning, meeting, greeting, exchanging, and seeing different perspectives.

[bisket]

outlived its usefullness

[MickJ26]

I'm probably least excited about this BC than any other BC. Partly because of no Rachel and no Fabulous Strike and party due to the gap between the great horses and the average horses. I'll be at the Big A that day (hopefully no rain) with my main focus on the Nashua and Tempted.

[rastajenk]

Joanie, I was merely explaining why I voted for "It's outlived its usefulness." If Mr. Zilla didn't think that was relevant to his poll, he wouldn't have included it among the options.

I like the Grand Slam events in golf and tennis; I'm not some kind of I-hate-the-world xenophobe. They are individual international events, but none of them bill themselves as some kind of world championship. They stand alone (or together, if you prefer) as unique events with their own histories and traditions.

Horse races can do the same, because they always have for years before the BC came along. The Breeders Cup hasn't hurt the Arlington Million, the Arc, the Epsom Derby, the various Guineas, etc., but it has hurt America's late summer and fall races.

I used to love the Breeders Cup, and still appreciate its value in bringing a larger set of eyeballs to the sport; but I think efforts to make it more international (as well as adding races to cover more divisions) bring about unintended consequences that fall well short of their good intentions. Ergo, my vote in the poll.

[Bobzilla]

Nearco and gm10, your points are well taken and I understand the global economic realities that are to a great extent influencing an ever changing Breeders' Cup. I'll admit to being unaware of the figures Nearco mentioned in regard to the handle of some of these prestigious races. Almost half a billion in handle wagered on the Grand National, I would have never have guessed that much. No doubt racing seems more popular and prosperous beyond the shores of contemporary America.

Of course this is disapointing for someone such as myself who attended every BC between 1991-2007. I may have been naive as to think, or at least hope, that the BC was an agent of American racing and part of its mission was to affirm the American sport of racing as it's been traditionally conducted over the years. But as I stated before, the BC is a business first and foremost and they're going to act like one. I understand that.

Though my heart was with option 1, I went with option 2, mostly out of a sense of geographical fairness to such locations as Chicago, SoCa and Toronto. I also went with option 2 in recognition of the reality that many of our important races are currently run on AWSs and also because I was thinking it might encourage some connections to race their horses as 4yos. But the more I think about it today the more I think maybe option 5 would have been the best pick. The BC has seemingly had a negative effect on what used to be some great Fall Championship meets. Anyone else remember the great Belmont Fall Meets? That was some pretty serious racing involving some pretty serious horses of legendary stature.

[point given]

I voted for option one...call me narrow minded if you will...but to me, the BC event is American, should stay in America and should be run at tracks with dirt & turf...actually, IMO, IF we have to have synthetic, then every major track should have three ovals...one for each surface...which I doubt will ever happen. (If they did that, I would be the farm we'd see very few horses entered on the synthethic surfaces vs the dirt & turf)

Remaining in America and being hosted by tracks with dirt & turf ovals still keeps that international flavor...the European horses can still come here and do well... it's been prooven many of them can compete and win on dirt...if any of them can't run on dirt...they still have the turf races to enter.

This is a complicated issue and won't be taken to any conclusion anytime soon...let's see what happens next year at Churchill...my bet would be we'll have just as many Euro's coming here as we do now...if they don't like the Classic run on dirt...tough:) ...I don't see any Euro tracks putting in a dirt surface for American horses...I don't beleive we need to cater to the Euro's.

I also think the 'win and you are in' races need to go away...for obvious reasons, like mosty horses that win one, don't race in the BC anyway...the idea of these races is a crock of crap...

I also think the BC event needs to be brought back to one big day...an earlier post time and they can still use a couple of the new races they invented...the other ones we don't need anyway...it's not like they added more Eclipse Award catagories...so why bother with them?

My two cents

Two cents squared. It's our party and all are invited, dirt and turf, one superior day of racing old style. :ThmbUp:

[Cratos]

In recent weeks it's been interesting to read some of the differing views on this topic. I'm sure the BC is not unlike any other business and would like to expand its brand name as far as it can possibly reach. But at what point would the annual event cease to even remotely resemble what we've traditionally enjoyed as a Breeders' Cup event? Would some American based fans, many of whom having supported the BC passionately over its first 26 years, feel betrayed if the BC takes further steps to broaden international appeal?

For the record, I've always enjoyed the presence of international stars in the BC. It makes the races more interesting and adds an element of intrigue. I went heavy on Swain back in 98 and I'm still po'd over the ride. Euros have an important role in the BC since the beginning and have accounted for themselves rather nicely even when they were competing on dirt, a surface on which they feel they're at a disadvantage. Sheikh Albadhou (sp?), Arazi, Arcangues, Swain, Giants Causeway, Johannesburg, Sakhee, just to name a few who either won or ran a great race. Having read some interesting opinions on the subject in recent weeks, including some from board members across the Atlantic, I was interested to see what a poll might reveal.

I realize that the opinions of some may not exactly match any of the options I listed but I think most would have an opinion which would at least gravitate towards one of the options.

I understand your question, but I think the question should be “To What Extent Should the Breeders' Cup stay American?”

We live in a world that from a business point of view is very multi-national and for America to be a strong player in the world arena it cannot be an isolationist.

Yes, the Breeders’ Cup is a sport, but more than that it is a business and like all businesses it must grow and prosper to survive.

Making the Breeders’ Cup an international event is the right thing to do in my opinion. Look at Wimbledon or the British Open, neither of those have loss any prestige due to international competition.

However to become an international event I believe that the Breeders’ Cup should find a permanent home and I am for making Hialeah such home.

If it could be done, the legislature in the State of Florida should be petition to allow a casino to be built at Hialeah and this would be the “cash cow” to allow the facility to operate year round without having a meet. Also, there should be 3 racing surfaces built to accommodate the three types of racing: turf, synthetic, and dirt.

Lastly, the Breeders’ Cup races should be moved maybe to mid-November or later which will allow the European horses to recover from their traditional October competition. The first week in December would be an option and now we would have true world championship horseracing and may the best horses win

[CincyHorseplayer]

When hasn't it been International???

Since synthetics in the USA??

Is it "International" now that we have a surface that most champions on both continents don't race on??

The inadvertant beliefs implied by some,to me,shows that the party line on this "even" "fair" surface,really has fooled a lot of horseplayers.

[Java Gold@TFT]

My question to everyone who always say that something needs to be changed - what are your alternatives? You want a truly one day international world championships at tracks that span the globe? Which ones? You want it to go to Singapore with a poly and turf course? You think Dubai will ante up for the 2nd biggest day of racing with another poly and turf course and potentially lessen their world championship day in the Spring? Do you want one day meetings on pure turf like Ascot, Leopardstown or Longchamp? Anyone think that HK or Japan would want to interfere with their big stakes days? (Hell, they don't even come over now.) How about South America? There are already weight alowances due to the hemisphere breeding calendars. Let's run in Chile or Argentina.

All I ask is to define the alternatives without going out on a limb to say that what was started as One Championship Showcase day should be broken up to the point where dirt races are run in the US, turf races will be held in Europe and synthetic races will be run in Dubai.

And please don't forget that this event is run for and by the BREEDERS. This has never been a day to define Champions as much of a day where breeders can make back some money for breeding a good race horse. They put up all of the nomination fees to fund the racing whether it is a stallion fee or registering a weanling. I don't know if I ever remember a Japanese bred TB that was actually registered through the system and they have a very active breeding industry.

For the record, I voted for the last option but I truly wish that I didn't belive it was true. It has outlived it's original purpose which was to emphasize breeding and get the best to run against each other at least one time during the year.

[Bobzilla]

I understand your question, but I think the question should be “To What Extent Should the Breeders' Cup stay American?”

We live in a world that from a business point of view is very multi-national and for America to be a strong player in the world arena it cannot be an isolationist.

Yes, the Breeders’ Cup is a sport, but more than that it is a business and like all businesses it must grow and prosper to survive.

Making the Breeders’ Cup an international event is the right thing to do in my opinion. Look at Wimbledon or the British Open, neither of those have loss any prestige due to international competition.

However to become an international event I believe that the Breeders’ Cup should find a permanent home and I am for making Hialeah such home.

If it could be done, the legislature in the State of Florida should be petition to allow a casino to be built at Hialeah and this would be the “cash cow” to allow the facility to operate year round without having a meet. Also, there should be 3 racing surfaces built to accommodate the three types of racing: turf, synthetic, and dirt.

Lastly, the Breeders’ Cup races should be moved maybe to mid-November or later which will allow the European horses to recover from their traditional October competition. The first week in December would be an option and now we would have true world championship horseracing and may the best horses win


Sharp post as usual, Cratos. To what extent should the Breeders' Cup stay American?, might have been a better title for the thread. I just want to be clear that the thread wasn't born out of a sense of isolationism, provincialism, or worse, xenophobia. The Breeders' Cup has always been an international event and I've always thought of that as a positive.

I've read in recent years that the BC was looking into the idea of staging the event outside of America. It's now my understanding that, at least for the time being, they've put that plan on hold. The other part of the question has to do with basing location decisions on whether or not there is an AWS available for the main track races. Foreign connections have made clear their preference for synthetic surfaces over traditional dirt surfaces. But most of America's most important races are still contested over traditional dirt, at least for now and probably for at least the next ten years or so. Will the BC plan a site rotation that reflects a disproportionate number of synthetic main track locations as to propitiate to foreign connections? And if so, would they be shunning a major part of American racing in the process? The event will be at CD next year but it will be interesting to learn what site rotation Greg Avioli reccomends to the BC board. I understand that the BC is a business first and foremost and they'll be basing their stategic decisions on improving the likelihood of long-term economic success over any adherence to American racing traditions. But how much should the American Racing landscape change simply because the BC wants to grow as a business? I'm trying to get a feel for what many BC fans think of some of these possible decisions.

I've always loved the idea of resurrecting Hialeah with the hopes they could get dates for a meet. Seems like a prime candidate to install state-of-the-art tracks for all three surface types provided they have the infrastructure for it. I personally prefer a rotation for BC sites but I wouldn't mind seeing Hialeah used every 2 or 3 years.

[rastajenk]

I'd just like to add that I agree fully with the Hialeah suggestions; but I also want to respond to the suggestion that Wimbledon and the British Open haven't suffered by being international events: When were they not international events? And nobody has ever suggested that they become more foreign-friendly by holding them anywhere else but Great Britain.

[miesque]

The Breeders Cup has always been an international event from its inception. However, it has evolved over the past 25 years and when it changed its name to the Breeders Cup World Championships it was not only a recognition that it had changed but also indicative of its future direction. I do find it interesting that some of the same individuals who bemoan the weakness of some of our divisions like the handicap division and then are indignent when the one event outside of maybe the Arlington Million the entire year that attracts some International participation in US racing takes steps to not only make it more interesting and provide more lucrative wagering opportunities but also attempt to add some needed further depth and breadth to the level of competition gets met with a "This is for American horses dammit" response. We have 363 days of the same cream puffs beating up on each other in watered down stakes races if you don't like the Cup being more International.


I will note that the early post which references the larger then expected international component to those attending the Breeders Cup is quite correct and an important factor to remember. In addition to some of the European attendees I have come across each year, I have also noticed that the European press contingent seems to outnumber the American press contigent. Also, for the past few years (even before last year's Cup at Monmouth and Churchill) it seems that the Europeans are in some ways more enthusiastic about the Breeders Cup then we are. Also, as was touched on earlier, handle is one element to take into account. We are all aware that US handle has not exactly been booming recently and as such is really not a good source for potential handle growth. However, there is a lot of international wagering money floating around out there and making the event more attractive to international horseplayers is by no means a stupid move on the part of Breeders Cup officials especially considering that there is progress being made on international pool commingling.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52951/new-developments-on-international-wagering?id=52951

“We are delighted to link up with Scientific Games, which will give our customers access to the host track pools of a number of North American racetracks, bringing overseas money into the pools and giving a new revenue stream to the US racetracks. We will start offering this service this month, ahead of the Breeders Cup. This deal will now enable Betfair customers to bet into tote pools, not only in the US, but in the UK, Ireland, Australia and South Africa as well, with hopefully more jurisdictions to follow.”

[Fingal]

There really are two questions.
Do you think the BC should become more international?
Will the BC become more international?

I imagine most Americans will answer no to the first, for cultural reasons.

As to the second question, the Breeders Cup will continue to pursue more international. Why? Simple really.... $$$$$$$$$$$

The BC makes it's money on takeout. Now that the BC has gone to 2 days they've increased the handle, but it still looks like it will max out around $150m. That's a pretty paltry figure in the grand scheme of things.
The Japanese bet over $200m on the Japan Cup alone... that's just one race. The Brits and Irish pump close to $500m, half a billion, through bookies and tote on the Grand National. In Hong Kong, on their big international race day in Dec, they gamble over $100m on that race card... remember, that's just one city, with a population less than LA or NY.
The BC looks at figures like that and salivates. So they are exploring avenues to open up intermingling with international pools. But to have international wagering interest you need international horses.
International runners also bring international fans. An estimated 10,000 British and Irish fans attend the BC every year, esp when it's on the East coast. Imagine the influx of fans if a big name Japanese horse ran? When Deep Impact ran in the Arc, there were 5,000 Japanese that had flown half way around the world to be at Longchamp that day... that was for one horse. They dumped so much money into the PMU (French parimutuel) that they completely skewed the pools, he was a short as 1/9 at one point.

It's all about $$, and like any brand, once you've maxxed out a market you go after other markets. Everyone from Coca Cola to the NBA does just that.

There's only one way they're going to enjoy those pools. There's a saying-

" If the mountain won't come to Mohammad, Mohammad must go to the mountain "

[Cratos]

I'd just like to add that I agree fully with the Hialeah suggestions; but I also want to respond to the suggestion that Wimbledon and the British Open haven't suffered by being international events: When were they not international events? And nobody has ever suggested that they become more foreign-friendly by holding them anywhere else but Great Britain.

You are correct about Wimbledon and the British Open and I didn’t state my point with clarity which your inference did; thanks.

[castaway01]

Aren't "international" trainers/owners already winning most of the turf races? What help do they really need? Superior horses will get the job done.

[Bruddah]

It's American money spent by American bettors, which have created the purses for those races. The "American Blue Bloods" want to create a situation in which they hope to attract Foreign bettors. But, in fact, it will never happen. Foreign interests will continue to bet with their traditional sources, which doesn't include no share for 'no stinkin Merican Yankees'.

Ergo, The American bettors and horse Industry are short changed again. Mean while "American Blue Bloods" change the BC to suit the Euros.

It's really not about finding a true World Champion but, trying to devise a way to those huge betting pooles overseas. Mean while the American bettors will continue to pay the way.

Boycott the BC or whatever they are calling it these days. If you bet those races, at least write sucker on your face before placing the bet. :ThmbDown:

[bisket]

My question to everyone who always say that something needs to be changed - what are your alternatives? You want a truly one day international world championships at tracks that span the globe? Which ones? You want it to go to Singapore with a poly and turf course? You think Dubai will ante up for the 2nd biggest day of racing with another poly and turf course and potentially lessen their world championship day in the Spring? Do you want one day meetings on pure turf like Ascot, Leopardstown or Longchamp? Anyone think that HK or Japan would want to interfere with their big stakes days? (Hell, they don't even come over now.) How about South America? There are already weight alowances due to the hemisphere breeding calendars. Let's run in Chile or Argentina.

All I ask is to define the alternatives without going out on a limb to say that what was started as One Championship Showcase day should be broken up to the point where dirt races are run in the US, turf races will be held in Europe and synthetic races will be run in Dubai.

And please don't forget that this event is run for and by the BREEDERS. This has never been a day to define Champions as much of a day where breeders can make back some money for breeding a good race horse. They put up all of the nomination fees to fund the racing whether it is a stallion fee or registering a weanling. I don't know if I ever remember a Japanese bred TB that was actually registered through the system and they have a very active breeding industry.

For the record, I voted for the last option but I truly wish that I didn't belive it was true. It has outlived it's original purpose which was to emphasize breeding and get the best to run against each other at least one time during the year.
the fact of the matter is alot of breeders aren't going to be contributing like they have in the past.

[WinterTriangle]

It's American money spent by American bettors, which have created the purses for those races.

Compare the BC purses with say, Dubai Cup, which sheik mo may increase to $12 mil when Meydan opens. Or the Arc de Triomphe. Or Japan Cup.

Curlin should have stayed home, right? Why did they allow a yankee horsie to come over and have a chance at that big money?

I'm starting to get a strange read on american hospitality.........from some here.

............maybe we should just close our tracks to "dem euro fer-in-ners" :confused:

[DeanT]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52951/new-developments-on-international-wagering?id=52951

“We are delighted to link up with Scientific Games, which will give our customers access to the host track pools of a number of North American racetracks, bringing overseas money into the pools and giving a new revenue stream to the US racetracks. We will start offering this service this month, ahead of the Breeders Cup. This deal will now enable Betfair customers to bet into tote pools, not only in the US, but in the UK, Ireland, Australia and South Africa as well, with hopefully more jurisdictions to follow.”

The Hambletonian for harness racing marketed hard and got wagering hubs from Sweden (where trotting is huge). They made up close to 20% of Hambo days handle this year. A global game if done right. The BC is totally on the right track with this, imo.

[Bobzilla]

Considering that most of the world's biggest races are contested over grass courses and that the BC sees its most promising growth potential through wagering on continents other than North America, I almost have to wonder if we'll see the BC Classic and BC Turf switch places in terms of importance, race day sequence and purse. I suppose the same might eventually occur between the Dubai World Cup and the Dubai Sheema. I think planners remain optimistic that synthetic tracks will prove in time to be a true level playing field that will attract the world's best grass performers and America's classic dirt performers into the same event. I know there are differing views as to how much of a level playing field these alleged universal surfaces actually are a level playing field and perhaps in time there will be more of a consensus on the topic. If the perception held by some American horsemen, if not the reality, that champions who earned their reputations on American dirt surfaces are at a disadvantage while competing against the world's best turf horses over a synthetic course then I can easily see the eventual switch between the BC Classic and BC Turf in time. How times have changed.

[Bruddah]

Compare the BC purses with say, Dubai Cup, which sheik mo may increase to $12 mil when Meydan opens. Or the Arc de Triomphe. Or Japan Cup.

Curlin should have stayed home, right? Why did they allow a yankee horsie to come over and have a chance at that big money?

I'm starting to get a strange read on american hospitality.........from some here.

............maybe we should just close our tracks to "dem euro fer-in-ners" :confused:

My lady, me thinks thou understands me too well. :D

[Robert Fischer]

the breeders cup should rotate venues and offer invitations and hospitalities to international racing's best.

[Cratos]

the breeders cup should rotate venues and offer invitations and hospitalities to international racing's best.

I don’t think you can rotate the Breeders’ Cup like the Super Bowl and have long term success because unlike the Super Bowl there isn’t enough quality racing facilities in racing to handle the large crowds.

Once you get beyond the TC race sites, there are only two places that probably could stage a good Breeders’ Cup and they are Del Mar and Saratoga. In the NFL you have many more and with the opening of the Dallas Cowboys new facility, the NFL has a true state of the art arena for its premier game.

But if the “geniuses” in racing will put their collective brain parts together long enough to make one brain, they will realize that financing and building a facility to be the Breeders’ Cup permanent home is the right thing to do.

Think about it, the KY Derby, the Dubai World Cup, and the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe which is probably the 3 biggest races in the world, all has permanent homes. With a permanent home there could hotels, casinos, and other attractions integrated together to make the BC home a “destination” for many people who are not fans, but might become fans.

[miesque]

Richard Eng takes a practical look at future potential BC tracks from a fiscal angle in his column today. I know there are those that don't want to look at it in cold hard dollar terms because synthetics are such an emotionally charged issue for some but if you do the signs point to additional BCs on synthetic in the future.

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/breeders-cup-cant-shun-synthetic-surfaces-65740977.html
In today's economy, many tracks scrambling just to survive are much less willing to take a significant financial gamble for the privilege of hosting the Breeders' Cup.

The Breeders' Cup will soon announce a rotation of host tracks to allow it to circle the wagons, so to speak. For certain, those tracks will include Belmont Park, Churchill Downs and Santa Anita.

Some of the most financially solvent tracks that might be willing to accept the host role include Arlington, Del Mar, Keeneland and Woodbine. Notice something in common? They all have a synthetic surface main track.

[nearco]

Keeneland can't host a BC, too small. Saratoga could handle the crowd, but is a pain to get to for horsemen and fans, esp coming from overseas.

If the BC is really going to keep pursuing the "World Championship" angle, then they need to move away from 7f turf courses. You really can't have "world" class grass races on a bullring, esp Mile races. A permanent home at Belmont wouldn't bother me. Huge facility, can handle crowds, easy to get to, "centrally" located between the west coast and Europe, two proper size turf courses, and has real dirt for those that care.
I like the idea of Hialeah as a permanent home, such a beautiful facility would add a great bit of class, but if they did that I wish they'd go the whole hog and put in a decent sized turf course.

[miesque]

Keeneland can't host a BC, too small. Saratoga could handle the crowd, but is a pain to get to for horsemen and fans, esp coming from overseas.

If the BC is really going to keep pursuing the "World Championship" angle, then they need to move away from 7f turf courses. You really can't have "world" class grass races on a bullring, esp Mile races. A permanent home at Belmont wouldn't bother me. Huge facility, can handle crowds, easy to get to, "centrally" located between the west coast and Europe, two proper size turf courses, and has real dirt for those that care.
I like the idea of Hialeah as a permanent home, such a beautiful facility would add a great bit of class, but if they did that I wish they'd go the whole hog and put in a decent sized turf course.

Belmont is a nice fit from a size and track perspective (with the exception of Classic starting location) but unfortunately the facility is in serious need of some very serious capital infusions due to years of neglect (personally I peg it at $100-150 Million to really bring it into the 21st Century as a premium facility). I have seen articles discussing a $100 Million renovation of Saratoga once slot money starts rolling, but nothing really about Belmont so who knows if and when any real material renovation will be done to it.

[how cliche]

I voted for the last option.

I haven't felt the pre BC rush I normally do this year. Perhaps I finally got wise. I think it's a combination of the lack of star power and the two day format. I'll be working while Friday's card is run. I won't play if I can't watch. On Saturday Europe's big horse and North America's big horse are both in absentia. The Classic is still classic in distance though.

I've thought this since I began in '99. The Breeders' Cup is phony. There are two runners that provided me a genuine sense of something special in 10 years of this. Ouija Board because she's a champion & Tiznow because of the timing & proximity to the crime.

What is The Cup to these eyes? Honestly? A gambling orgy. Why do people like it so? When right, they get paid more than they should. Not knocking it. Just calling it as I see it. For wagering there are other venues where I'll have an edge and my handle is likely to go there instead.

[joanied]

I've read through the posts since I was last here...many opinions, suggestions, ranting and raving...which is a good thing...I hope the BC power guys read this forum:)

First, I'd like to address this 'international' thing...regardless of what the BC calls itself...it IS international and always has been...I hate to repeat myself, but horses from every country in the world are 'invited' to compete. And they do...more so now since synthetic is in the mix...the BC has never been limited to American horses...although, it is used to 'help' the voters concerning the year end awards, which, IMO, ARE American.
I have no problem with Euorpean horses, Asian horse, South Americvan horses et all, entering in the BC races...in fact, I think it's a very good thing...I also enjoy being able to see some of the best horses from other countries race here...but I am against us making it easier for them by holding the BC at a place like SA where there is no dirt. Speaking of synthetic usrfaces...IF they are to be 'level playing fields'...then IMO, the every sythetic surface at every track that has them, must be exactly the same synthetic...IMO, that is a big problem with the fake stuff...every track that has it uses a different type of synthetic, and it's obvious that each one plays differently than the next...how can racing on the fake stuff be fair and level if each type is different? But, I guess that is another discussion all together (my bad:) )

Getting back to the 'international' debate... and repeating myself...all are welcome to come and compete...but to go out of our way to make the BC more appealing to horses from other countires, IMO, is not the thing to do...as mentioned...imagine the Arc being changed to dirt in order to attract more American horses...and why isn't Dubia putting in a dirt track (besids the fake one) at their new facility to attract American horse to their World Cup day...because Europe, Dubia, Japan ect. don't give a shit if we ship over for their races or not...and they sure aren't going to award an American horse that wins the Arc a Cartier Award off one race over there...
but, that is also another discussion (my bad:) )

Bottom line for me...the BC IS international...and will remain so until we decide that only American based horses can enter & compete...and we all know that ain't gonna happen, and prob'ly shouldn't:)

The venue for each BC might be better served if it does have it's own facility...but building a track to host the event is impossible, at least in this economy, because of the cost..although if it was done right, and had other betting venues, as in casinos, and also hotels, restaurants ect., it might be a good thing...but, me thinks it'll never happen.
It seems to me, the tracks we have now in this country, the ones able to host the BC are few and far between...and, IMO, you can't expect a track to spend millions to fix it up in order to hold the event...although, as side note, it would force some tracks in bad need of fixing up to do so...I am very depressed to hear that Belmont Park is in bad shape...shame on the NYRA...Belmont Park, to me, is the premier race place in America, and should be teated as such!!
Hialeah would be a wonderful host site, and I would have no problem with it being THE site for the BC every year...some have mentioned this, and I have to agree...it could have it all...dirt, turf & synthetic surfaces...it could have it's own casino's, restaurants, motels/hotels/ entertainment, such as Vegas type shows...and we all know, at least those of us that were lucky enough to have been there during it's 'hey-day'...that it is a gorgeous, classy race track.

I can't discuss the other aspects within this topic...handle, breeder nominations...the financial part of the debate...I am just not that versed in that part of the 'problem'...so I won't make an ass out of myself and try debating it...
but from a pure horse racing vantage point...I want to BC to stay...I want to see the best of the best showcased...but I also think that maybe the date(s) need to change...I agree the Fall race scheduel has changed too much to accomodate the BC races...someone mentioned the Belmont Fall meet...it was spectacular in it's day....it was a kind of BC Championship...spread over weeks...it attracted the best of the best, and I miss it. I resent the fact that owners/trainers are skipping some of the best races we have, races that have always been on top of every race fan (and handicappers) must see, can't wait for list...to run in the BC. If the BC date was changed, maybe races like the JCGC would be 'preps' for the BC...not just a race that some can make and that the quality of the feilds are less than they were because of the BC...
I beleive some of this is because so many trainers 'train up' to the BC...and that horses, in general, don't race as often as they once did (IMO, not a good thing anyway)...and the 'win and you are in' races need to be gone...they don't help anything concerning the BC, IMO...you want to run a horse there, you nominate or supplement...IMO, it's just dumb and we don't need them.

I've ranted & raved long enough...;)

[Bobzilla]

Steve Crist touches on the subject of a possible BC rotation that's in the works.

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=108362&subs=0&arc=0

[Java Gold@TFT]

Steve Crist touches on the subject of a possible BC rotation that's in the works.

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=108362&subs=0&arc=0
It was only about 4-5 years ago that the BC Board were talking about a continuous loop of host tracks and they did experiment with it. It was supposed to be a 4 year plan - So Cal (either Hol or SA), Churchill, Belmont and then a floating mystery track. The float would go to whoever wanted it most - Monmouth, Lone Star, Arlington, Woodbine and maybe even Gulfstream if they could get their act together. It was supposed to be a long term commitment to stop the guessing game and avoid this year's disaster of running at one track two years in a row. Obviously the Board of Directors has changed over the last 5 years so maybe a strong advocate like Satish Saanan can push things in the right direction. The man is 1000% better than Avioli to run the program. If he could even do half of the work for the BC that he has done for Padua the BC may make a comeback.

[maxwell]

Humans are indeed creatures of habit. The Kentuckey Derby would never feel right being run anywhere other than CD. Whereas most people prefer that the BC ships out full company as it has always been on the road. In other words, the dynamics of the Triple Crown and the BC are night and day.

The BC folks have decided to get serious in regards to rotating the Cup races. My guess is that most fans ( and the BC bigwigs ) want the races to be run at major tracks : CD, SA, Sar, DMR, WO, GP, AP, Bel, Kee. I read somewhere that Keeneland is too small a venue, but it's a real shame that DMR and Saratoga have not been part of the big dance. the BC could alternate between the southern tracks ( tight turf ) and the northern tracks ( big turf ). This would keep the Euros somewhat happy.

I would dump the supporting races on the BC card and add the new BC races to create an "El Grande" day of racing. I would also shorten the time between races. I think it's something like 40 minutes which to me is just insane!

Just my 2 pennies worth. :)

[maxwell]

The poll highly favors a contradiction : Buy American and globetrotting.

Too late to keep the BC at home as Canada hosted the Cup in '96. Same time zone though, which is one of the bones of contention. I have never seen the Dubai Cup because there's no way I am going to crawl out of bed at 7 a.m. to watch racing. I just can't get into racing in the a.m. I'm pretty sure most racing fans over here feel the same way.

America has the TC and the BC; Europe, Australia and Japan have their own signature races. :)

[Cratos]

To me this subject has gone far astray of its intended focus. I initially understood the debate in this thread to be whether the Breeders’ Cup races were World Championship races or not?

But as the thread continued, the debate became very protective in that there appeared to be an innate fear among some posters that America racing would lose something if the races were redesigned into formal World Championship races.

In all due respect, I don’t believe that America would lose any of its prestige or racing pride by participating in formal World Championship races.

The Eclipse awards can remain “pure” American awards, and the HOY can stay American only, but the best horse in the world can only be determined by head-to-head completion in a world arena.

Yes, I realize that foreign horses come and run in the Breeders Cup today, but there isn’t any formal recognition or nomination process today that designates this participation as “world” competition.

Are we afraid that we would be “disgraced” on a world stage and we would have to result to something like what happened to the Olympics when they became “professionalize” and we felt that the rest of the world (in particular, the Soviets at the time) wasn’t playing fair.

We shouldn’t be because history has shown and in the future will show that American bred horses can and will compete anywhere on any surface. Some of the nay Sayers will point to American horses’ lack of success in the prestigious Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe.

However they will have missed a very salient point which is American horses are bred to run on dirt(that might change in the future) because that is the predominant racing surface in America while in the rest of the world the surface is grass. Additionally, for the past 100 years the breeders’ of America have always pointed their horses toward winning the dirt raced Triple Crown races.

In summary, it is not about the BC races becoming internationalized, but whether they are formally structured today to be designated “World Championship races.”

[joanied]

Cratos...well said. Speaking for myself...I don't care one way or another if the BC races are 'designated' as a World Championship...they call it World Championships now...what else can they do for it to be an international world competetion...horses from anywhere in the World can come here to compete...I think that is great...just think of what we'd have missed if we didn't have other country horses running...
my thing about all this is simple:
1-the BC stays on American soil
2-the Eclipse Awards are given to American horses
3- the BC does not 'cater' to the Euro's...by not finding surfaces they prefer over our preferred dirt. We know one reason for having SA host two years running is to attrack more Euro's.
:) :) :)