View Full Version : Worst Racino?
michiken
10-18-2009, 11:52 AM
Which racino funded track has led to a major decline in their racing product?
Mountaineer
Hoosier Park
Philly Park
Evangeline Downs
Delta Downs
Penn National
Delaware Park
Presque Isle
Other
lamboguy
10-18-2009, 12:37 PM
why be on the negative side, how about which is the best?
46zilzal
10-18-2009, 12:45 PM
I know at my venue the owners don't give a shit about racing and only care about how many $$$$$$ come through the door, and since those come easier with the brainless gambling from machine, guess which one is favored while purses continue to decline?
BIG49010
10-18-2009, 01:09 PM
You forgot Woodbine ENT
46zilzal
10-18-2009, 01:23 PM
You forgot Woodbine ENT
They have a very strong commitment to the racing and horsemen. We have, sadly, lost many good riders and exceptional trainers to the greener pastures of Woodbine. I know many of the racing hierarchy there personally and racing has, is, and currently MIGHT be (the MBA suits are trying to push gambling over racing but so far are losing) the number one product there as they have both harness and thoroughbred FULL fields and great support for the game in Toronto.
This is from first hand evidence not innuendo either.
They have a very strong commitment to the racing and horsemen.
Unfortunately, they have no idea how to make the game better for bettors and are only making it now because of slots and having a monopoly in Canada when it comes to wagering on US races, at least onshore.
Backstretch Pirate
10-18-2009, 09:25 PM
Unfortunately, they have no idea how to make the game better for bettors and are only making it now because of slots and having a monopoly in Canada when it comes to wagering on US races, at least onshore.
Agreed, in fact, Woodbine Entertainment has been screwing Canadians for years now.
Tampa Russ
10-18-2009, 11:17 PM
Which racino funded track has led to a major decline in their racing product?
Mountaineer
Hoosier Park
Philly Park
Evangeline Downs
Delta Downs
Penn National
Delaware Park
Presque Isle
Other
All of the above (add CT to the list) have a better product than they would have without casino money. Most of them (for better or worse) would no longer be in business. Racino funding has only had a negative effect in the states that don't have them...OH, KY, MD (yes slots passes in MD but too little too late).
davefulche
10-19-2009, 12:49 AM
All of these tracks have gotten better horses because of racinos...however being from PA I can tell you it seems like Penn Nat and Philly Park management are clueless when it comes to promoting the racing game and could care less about racing as long as the casino is open. Delaware would have been dead if it wasn't for casinos. In the early 90s there racing was so bad.
illinoisbred
10-19-2009, 07:44 AM
Which racino funded track has led to a major decline in their racing product?
Mountaineer
Hoosier Park
Philly Park
Evangeline Downs
Delta Downs
Penn National
Delaware Park
Presque Isle
Other
I think the entire list with maybe Presque Isle as an exception leave alot to be desired. Moutaineer[formerly Waterford Park] has a bad reputation here in the midwest. Hoosier was dumped by Churchill Downs, may still not make it, but is siphoning off horses from Illinois.Evangeline and Delta always have been and will continue to be cajun "bush" tracks regardless how much money they run for. Delaware almost went out of business and from what I can see on Twin Spires, looks to be a dilapidated dump. One would think by now they could have made some improvements. The little bit I see from Philly Park does look positve- the quality has definitely improved,but at a cost to historically much more significant tracks-Aqueduct, Pimlico,and Laurel. Come to think of it, didn't Erie,Pa. once have Commodore Downs,- a bush track where Andy Beyer once wrote[tongue in cheek] that even Secretariat would lose there if he didn't draw the rail. Once people tire of pulling levers or realize that they are "sucker" games all these tracks will bite the dust.
Tampa Russ
10-19-2009, 08:28 AM
Del Park, far from being a "dump", is a beautiful place. Other than a day a Saratoga, I would chose a day at Del Park over anywhere else on the east coast.
Tampa Russ
10-19-2009, 08:30 AM
All of these tracks have gotten better horses because of racinos...however being from PA I can tell you it seems like Penn Nat and Philly Park management are clueless when it comes to promoting the racing game and could care less about racing as long as the casino is open. Delaware would have been dead if it wasn't for casinos. In the early 90s there racing was so bad.
I gotta think that the PENN and PHA folks know how to promote racing, but feel that no matter what they do, it will be a negative on the bottom line, so why bother.
castaway01
10-19-2009, 09:09 AM
I gotta think that the PENN and PHA folks know how to promote racing, but feel that no matter what they do, it will be a negative on the bottom line, so why bother.
They've never promoted it, so I don't think there's any proof that they do. They do know how to lobby for casinos though, they did very well in that area.
I do agree with your Delaware point though---it's quite beautiful there, far from a dump.
illinoisbred
10-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Del Park, far from being a "dump", is a beautiful place. Other than a day a Saratoga, I would chose a day at Del Park over anywhere else on the east coast.
I probably was unfair. I only see whats shown on the video feed and its generally not very flattering. The paddock area does look quite nice.
matthewsiv
10-19-2009, 09:32 AM
Although they do not have slots yet Calder.
They gave away a cap with Calder Casino and Racing on it.
So you know where their interest lies.
:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:
I have this theory that the inflated purses combined with the comparitively smallish pools make for a more "honest" track.
There is less reason to cheat with the purse money outweighing what could be made betting against yourself.
offtrack
10-19-2009, 11:15 AM
Commodore Downs was indeed a minor league track built near Erie, PA (the town where Andy Beyer was born I believe). Went there many times, seldom won, in the pre-simulcast days. I remember the tote board displayed payoff prices, instead of odds prior to a race.
proximity
10-19-2009, 07:29 PM
now how can pen be leading in this poll when their racing is better than pha and del's combined? and delaware doesn't even run year round. :confused:
and there are people here who actually cast votes for ded and evd? :confused:
castaway01
10-20-2009, 11:18 AM
now how can pen be leading in this poll when their racing is better than pha and del's combined? and delaware doesn't even run year round. :confused:
and there are people here who actually cast votes for ded and evd? :confused:
What does year round have to do with better racing? Is Turfway better than Keeneland because Turfway runs 6 months a year and Keeneland runs 6 weeks?
proximity
10-20-2009, 05:46 PM
What does year round have to do with better racing? Is Turfway better than Keeneland because Turfway runs 6 months a year and Keeneland runs 6 weeks?
they aren't required to run as many dates as pen (or pha) and still can't fill the races.
rrpic6
10-21-2009, 07:20 AM
The problems with racinos, mirroring many big entities, lies with upper management. Their goal is to constantly downsize the quality of the product and the workforce. This enables upper management to remain in control, no matter what the consumer desires.
Mountaineer and Presque Isle are the best examples. MNR got rid of their simulcast managers a few months ago. These were guys that knew the game and made horseplayers welcome. The slot bosses would have a hard time figuring out which tv set had on their own signal, let alone answer questions on jockey changes or carryovers from Belmont, Keeneland, etc. Presque Isle is ready to decimate their 1st floor simulcast area as soon as cards are allowed there.
Luckily, for us as horseplayers, those two places have great on air simulcast people. Katie Mikolay is a rising superstar. She has spent the last two summers at Presue Isle and goes back to Hawthorne for the rest of the year. TVG has started to use her a little bit now. With her looks and knowledge PI might be history. Their handle is sorry already. Mark (Mountainman) is a one man army for MNR. He wears many hats, enthusiasticly. I mentioned in another thread, I'm surprised they don't have him dealing blackjack on the graveyard shift.
RR
BombsAway Bob
10-21-2009, 11:42 PM
The problems with racinos, mirroring many big entities, lies with upper management. Their goal is to constantly downsize the quality of the product and the workforce. This enables upper management to remain in control, no matter what the consumer desires.
Mountaineer and Presque Isle are the best examples. MNR got rid of their simulcast managers a few months ago. These were guys that knew the game and made horseplayers welcome. The slot bosses would have a hard time figuring out which tv set had on their own signal, let alone answer questions on jockey changes or carryovers from Belmont, Keeneland, etc. Presque Isle is ready to decimate their 1st floor simulcast area as soon as cards are allowed there.
Luckily, for us as horseplayers, those two places have great on air simulcast people. Katie Mikolay is a rising superstar. She has spent the last two summers at Presue Isle and goes back to Hawthorne for the rest of the year. TVG has started to use her a little bit now. With her looks and knowledge PI might be history. Their handle is sorry already. Mark (Mountainman) is a one man army for MNR. He wears many hats, enthusiasticly. I mentioned in another thread, I'm surprised they don't have him dealing blackjack on the graveyard shift.
RR
Now THAT would get me booking a suite in Chester,WV. for a night of racing & gambling! BRILLIANT IDEA!
Mark, Nancy, Peter, all dealing @$15 Blackjack tables from Mid/3AM...
Track Collector
10-22-2009, 03:55 AM
I voted for Delaware. They have small fields, although this year they seemed a little larger than previous years. (Perhaps due to a new Racing Secretary who started in 2009.)
my_nameaintearl
10-23-2009, 02:18 PM
Delaware park is beautiful along with comfortable seating both inside and outside, now you can bet parlays on sports games. i haven't been to many tracks out side the ny nj pa DE area but DP is a great place almost like a resort when your driving in.
Delaware park is beautiful along with comfortable seating both inside and outside, now you can bet parlays on sports games..
How do those work, 2 of 2 gets you 3 for 1, 3 of 3 gets you 5 for 1? :confused:
Zman179
10-24-2009, 08:31 AM
Evangeline Downs should not be on this list. Give me a $3500 clamier at EvD with 14 horses running over a Grade 1 Stake at Santa Anita with 4 horses running any day.
Penn National might be running mutts, but there's at least 12 of them in most of their races.
jefftune
10-24-2009, 09:31 AM
I think the entire list with maybe Presque Isle as an exception leave alot to be desired. Moutaineer[formerly Waterford Park] has a bad reputation here in the midwest. Hoosier was dumped by Churchill Downs, may still not make it, but is siphoning off horses from Illinois.Evangeline and Delta always have been and will continue to be cajun "bush" tracks regardless how much money they run for. Delaware almost went out of business and from what I can see on Twin Spires, looks to be a dilapidated dump. One would think by now they could have made some improvements. The little bit I see from Philly Park does look positve- the quality has definitely improved,but at a cost to historically much more significant tracks-Aqueduct, Pimlico,and Laurel. Come to think of it, didn't Erie,Pa. once have Commodore Downs,- a bush track where Andy Beyer once wrote[tongue in cheek] that even Secretariat would lose there if he didn't draw the rail. Once people tire of pulling levers or realize that they are "sucker" games all these tracks will bite the dust.
Yes, the $1500 claimers raced at Commodore Downs in the 70's. I live here in Erie and marvel at the quality of horses at the current PID compared to the nags that ran at Commodore. BTW, Andy Beyer is a native of Erie, PA.
-Jeff Tune
www.angelfire.com/pa/tune (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/tune)
Valuist
10-31-2009, 07:13 PM
Today I happened to frequent a new OTB for the first time. While there, I saw one TV where I saw "Hollywood" on the screen. I knew Hollywood Park wasn't running so I moved a little closer for a better look. It actually said "Hollywood Casino" in big print with "Penn National" in very small print below. What an embarrassment. I realize that you get the bulk of your revenue from slots but do they really need to downplay the track on its own live TV feed? The industry deserves the problems it has.
goforgin
10-31-2009, 08:27 PM
While the quality of racing may not be the best, the folks at Delta Downs sure were nice. It was a great day and everyone I met there from employees to the locals were tops. Seemed the slots were second to the racing there, but the employees and service there was very good. :ThmbUp:
Later I went to Lake Charles to the casino (no racing there, but not too far down the road), but again the most gracious employees you would ever want to meet. They didn't want to be like Vegas or like other wantabe casinos or racecinos where they don't care about there customers. I played craps for several hours watching newcomers and travelers screwing up placing chips at the rolls. Not once did they pull a late drop winner back. They paid the customer and politely advised the rules, had a good laugh and moved on. No "Vegas" type in your face. It's $5 for heaven's sakes. They know who their customers are, dime slots, $5 craps, etc. Folks out to have a good time and a pleasant experience. :ThmbUp:
onefast99
11-17-2009, 04:48 PM
All of these tracks have gotten better horses because of racinos...however being from PA I can tell you it seems like Penn Nat and Philly Park management are clueless when it comes to promoting the racing game and could care less about racing as long as the casino is open. Delaware would have been dead if it wasn't for casinos. In the early 90s there racing was so bad.
How can you compare penn with Philly Park. PP puts on a decent racing card, the purses are good and they have two of the worst racing days to boot, Monday and Tuesday!
onefast99
11-17-2009, 04:51 PM
Delaware park is beautiful along with comfortable seating both inside and outside, now you can bet parlays on sports games. i haven't been to many tracks out side the ny nj pa DE area but DP is a great place almost like a resort when your driving in.
A perfect example of how racing and slots can co-exist. DP is one of the nicest facilities around.
proximity
11-17-2009, 06:19 PM
How can you compare penn with Philly Park....
the last day that both of these tracks ran was saturday. here are the RELEVANT numbers from that day:
pen: 8--9--9--11-8--11-12-10-10
pha:6--8--6--8--5--11--7--6--6--9
the smaller fields and bigger purses are better for horsemen (atleast in the short run), but for handicapping.... the larger the fields.... the more good bets you'll be able to find..... the more worthwhile the activity becomes.... and ultimately the more the game and sport can prosper.
rrbauer
11-20-2009, 12:42 PM
All of the above (add CT to the list) have a better product than they would have without casino money. Most of them (for better or worse) would no longer be in business. Racino funding has only had a negative effect in the states that don't have them...OH, KY, MD (yes slots passes in MD but too little too late).
They may have a "better" product in terms of the horses that are running (better purses) and the field sizes (mostly the latter). Nothing has improved in terms of mutuel-pool sizes or takeout levels.
rrbauer
11-20-2009, 12:48 PM
How can you compare penn with Philly Park. PP puts on a decent racing card, the purses are good and they have two of the worst racing days to boot, Monday and Tuesday!
Racing when other tracks are dark should not be termed as "worst racing days". There is virtually no competition on those days (save Tampa in the winter on Tuesdays). They save a lot of horseplayers from withdrawal pains.
therussmeister
11-22-2009, 08:32 PM
All of these tracks have gotten better horses because of racinos...however being from PA I can tell you it seems like Penn Nat and Philly Park management are clueless when it comes to promoting the racing game and could care less about racing as long as the casino is open. Delaware would have been dead if it wasn't for casinos. In the early 90s there racing was so bad.
If they did care about promoting racing they'd lower the take-out rate.
onefast99
11-23-2009, 08:59 AM
Racing when other tracks are dark should not be termed as "worst racing days". There is virtually no competition on those days (save Tampa in the winter on Tuesdays). They save a lot of horseplayers from withdrawal pains.
It is still two tough days to get a good handle. PP does a nice job on both of these days and as the purses go up next month, again we should see even better cards as many horseman are requesting stalls at PP.
netbet
11-23-2009, 01:29 PM
Hi all,
My vote would be for The Meadows in Western PA. I know it is a harness track but it is a racino.
I voted this way since the casino and track are managed by separate companies and casino group has no interest in how the race track is doing. I also understand that the casino company sets the rules and the track has to follow....for instance, the horsemen want to race on weekends but the casino says nope...the weekends are for the slots players!
Now with The Rivers casino opening in the City of Pittsburgh....both The Meadows and The Rivers are competing for basically the same buck.
skate
11-26-2009, 01:06 PM
I've always, always, always had a good time at every track i've been too.
I find it difficult to imagine "so much negativity".
With that, Negatory Frame'work, how the Hell can any Management do anything positive for those already LOST in obscurity?
The only Money issue that can ever be too high would be Taxes.
You vote the people IN, so...:eek:
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