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Rook
10-14-2009, 11:40 AM
The recent decision by Churchill Downs to shut down TSN and abandon ProCap files is the sort of event that should get the attention of HANA. It is a perfect example of a company crapping on horseplayers without consideration to the damage that they are doing to the sport.

Iím sure Iím not the only one who has spent a tremendous amount of time working with ProCaps under the reasonable assumption that they would be around for many years to come.

Pulling the rug out from under us means that instead of betting, handicappers like me will be spending months of their time in software development coming up with a replacement. In other cases, this will be the final straw for many already disgruntled bettors. The clear result will be millions in lost handle.

If Churchill feels they arenít making enough money with ProCaps, then they should raise the price. Although increasing data costs is not the way to grow the industry, it wouldnít be outrageous to charge the same amount as HDW and DRF. However, it is absolutely disgraceful to break the software and databases that loyal customers have built up over the years.

Please HANA: get involved with this issue.

cj
10-14-2009, 11:58 AM
I don't use ProCaps, but I would second the motion. It sets a bad precedent.

Horseplayersbet.com
10-14-2009, 11:59 AM
I don't know why Brisnet couldn't just take over the business. They are in the same building after all, I believe.

andymays
10-14-2009, 12:02 PM
I don't use them but I'm willing to participate in a email/phone call campaign on your behalf!

Hey Dean, this might be one of the issues that fits with my proposal. May be a good test case. What do you think?

the_fat_man
10-14-2009, 12:07 PM
Please HANA: get involved with this issue.

HANA really needs to get involved with the broader issue: FREE DATA.

There's no reason comma delimmited result files, basic information, should not be made available to anyone who wants them

They can then tweak them as they see fit.

Anyone wanting 'specialty' data, can then pay for it. There'll still be money to be made for the data providers.

THIS should be HANA's #1 priority.

THIS is doable.

Especially given some of the positive things happening at EQUIBASE recently.

miesque
10-14-2009, 12:26 PM
I have a question since this is the first that I have heard of this issue so please bear with me. Are they migrating to another platform and if so have they provided the ability for conversion of existing files? Does anyone know why it was discontinued? Was it because sales of the product have sagged and its no longer a profitable product to offer?

Nets
10-14-2009, 12:40 PM
HANA really needs to get involved with the broader issue: FREE DATA.

There's no reason comma delimmited result files, basic information, should not be made available to anyone who wants them

They can then tweak them as they see fit.

Anyone wanting 'specialty' data, can then pay for it. There'll still be money to be made for the data providers.

THIS should be HANA's #1 priority.

THIS is doable.

Especially given some of the positive things happening at EQUIBASE recently.

I agree with this.

I don't see why Bris doesn't offer various purchase discount plans. Why not 5 track unlimited or 10 track, etc. Many probably don't want Every track every day. Seems like any such deals would only increase usage overall and thus increase handle. Just my opinion.

Gary

cj
10-14-2009, 12:58 PM
I am all for free data, but I think that is too big a step right now. They have to pay people to get us the data, and cutting out a revenue source probably isn't very realistic right now.

miesque
10-14-2009, 01:19 PM
By the way, I am sure the idea of free data must make the private equity that severely overpaid for the Daily Racing Form back in 2007 feel all warm and squishy inside. :lol: They are probably already not too happy that they have lost customers to BRIS since those PPs are free for Twinspires customers.

cj
10-14-2009, 01:24 PM
By the way, I am sure the idea of free data must make the private equity that severely overpaid for the Daily Racing Form back in 2007 feel all warm and squishy inside. :lol: They are probably already not too happy that they have lost customers to BRIS since those PPs are free for Twinspires customers.

I believe TFM is talking about basic information. All the providers offer value added (to somebody) information. I guess it would show right away how much value that data really has.

rokitman
10-14-2009, 02:16 PM
Base level info should be free. Not anything with value added. Just getting the last 8 or 10 running lines should not cost anybody anything. Pace/Speed figures, and anything else beyond what you see in a standard running line, you still pay for.

Jeff P
10-14-2009, 03:21 PM
Just had a conversation with Corby and Happy at Brisnet.com.

Bottom line:

If you are a current TSN Advantage Plan subscriber as of 10/01/2009 you will have the option of continuing your data subscription at the same price with Brisnet.com. You will have access to an equivalent Brisnet data file.

Brisnet.com will be doing everything within reason to ensure that this transition for TSN Advantage Plan subscribers goes as smoothly as possible.

Working on a short write up of the facts/details as relates to the transition.

Will come back to this thread later today once that write up is complete and all of the facts in my write up have been verified by Brisnet.com


Jeff Platt

President, HANA

http://www.HorsePlayersAssociation.com

.

Jeff P
10-14-2009, 04:34 PM
My impressions from the overall tone of the call were positive. I believe that Brisnet really does want to make the transition for TSN Advantage Plan subscribers go as smoothly as possible:

Here's a brief write up of what was discussed on the call:

* TSN will be absorbed by Brisnet on 11/17/2009

* Current TSN Advantage Plan subscribers will be "grandfathered in" and have the option to extend their data subscriptions through the end of 2010. Grandfathered in means the same monthly fee and access to an equivalent data file.

* Non TSN subscribers will not be grandfathered in and new TSN Advantage Plan data subscriptions became no longer available as of 10/01/2009.

* Grandfathered in TSN .PCS file subscribers will be given access to Brisnet MultiCaps .MCP files at the same monthly data subscription fee currently being paid to TSN.

* Brisnet's immediate goal is simple: Current TSN data subscribers will enjoy a seamless transition to the new Brisnet equivalent data file type without an increase in price.

* Yet to be determined at this time is what happens at the end of 2010.

Final comment from Happy Broadbent of Brisnet.com:"As I said on the phone, we are here to take care of your customers and to be sure that the transition is smooth for them. We have set up a specific email address to answer any customer questions:

tsninfo @ brisnet . com
(remove the blank spaces first)

Or they can contact us by calling:

8 0 0 - 3 5 4 - 9 2 0 6
option 5."

Now you know what I know.


-jp

.

CincyHorseplayer
10-14-2009, 06:58 PM
I'm guessing there will be an email with a change of address site???And I assume accounts info and screen name/password info will remain the same???

Handiman
10-14-2009, 09:16 PM
I had to speak to TSN's tech department today, and while on the phone I asked them what was up, and they confirmed what Jeff has put out here.

I have the advantage plan and as long as I continue making the monthly payments all will be well till the end of next year. But they said once a subscriber defaults or quits for any reason that is the end of the ole advantage plan for them.

Handi :)

cj
10-14-2009, 09:36 PM
I had to speak to TSN's tech department today, and while on the phone I asked them what was up, and they confirmed what Jeff has put out here.

I have the advantage plan and as long as I continue making the monthly payments all will be well till the end of next year. But they said once a subscriber defaults or quits for any reason that is the end of the ole advantage plan for them.

Handi :)

That means be sure to update your credit card before it expires...one reject and you are done I would imagine.

the_fat_man
10-14-2009, 10:34 PM
That means be sure to update your credit card before it expires...one reject and you are done I would imagine.

Sounds like a lot of pressure to me. :rolleyes:

One slip up and he's paying through the nose for his data. And he's a programmer too.

Rook
10-14-2009, 11:45 PM
I downloaded and exported Brisnetís Multicaps sample file and was relieved to find out that both Equisim and my own program will be able to handle it. Therefore, I happily will be able to bet instead of having to go through the drudgery of programming over the next few months.

However, Brisnetís response to Jeff was far from reassuring.

Why havenít they made plans beyond 2010? What kind of business makes such a huge change and hasnít thought beyond the short term? I hope they are just truly being clueless rather than keeping it a secret that they plan to screw their loyal customers in 2011.

When Churchill did a cost/benefit analysis of dropping TSN did anybody there factor in the handle decline to their racetracks from bettors who resent having the cost of their data skyrocket? Did anybody estimate the number of new handicappers that would be lost by cranking up the cost of Julyís complete set of data from $60 a month to $1,600 (785 cards plus $30 Silver Club)?

Only in the racing industry would they think they can increase the price of something by 26.6 times and not have substantial demand destruction. We need HANA to protect the industry from its own stupidity. This is a prime example.

Handiman
10-14-2009, 11:56 PM
I just finished writing 25,000 lines of code based on procaps data structure for a client with a database module due next down the line once he decided on his needs. And I have another program half completed for another client based on procaps.

And now I hear that procaps' files are near history. :mad: Not a happy camper!!!

Handi

Not to mention that I use procaps files with handifast. :bang:

CBedo
10-15-2009, 12:20 AM
However, Brisnetís response to Jeff was far from reassuring.

Why havenít they made plans beyond 2010? What kind of business makes such a huge change and hasnít thought beyond the short term? I hope they are just truly being clueless rather than keeping it a secret that they plan to screw their loyal customers in 2011.Just because they haven't told us their plans 15 months out doesn't mean they don't have a plan.

CBedo
10-15-2009, 12:24 AM
The TSN Procaps and the BRIS Multicaps files are almost identical, and map almost field for field. The Multicaps files have a few fields that the procaps don not.

It would be nice if BRIS would clean up and update their file description document to help make this clear to everyone. There are a few fields that have data but don't have any explanation in the library document.

Rook
10-15-2009, 12:30 AM
Just because they haven't told us their plans 15 months out doesn't mean they don't have a plan.
Yes, it would be a smart bet to assume that they do and the fact that they won't tell us what that plan is means that it is wise to assume the worst.:mad:

rrbauer
10-15-2009, 10:45 AM
Just because they haven't told us their plans 15 months out doesn't mean they don't have a plan.

I promise you. THEY DON'T HAVE A PLAN. What you have at BRIS is a former family-owned, family-run organization that is now just another piece of a big corporate pie. The are simply a corporate cost center. They have been forced to downsize by cutting personnel and shrinking product. The BRIS employees are responding to pressures that they've never felt before. They don't know if they will have a job after this year let alone 15 months from now. When consolidation of TSN has been completed you will see another pass through their product offerings removing those that aren't producing enough revenue.

Handiman
10-15-2009, 03:34 PM
This is why I questioned the feasibility of a player co-op data service in another thread. No one has responded which is fine, but seems like a nice alternative to me.

I was in the propane business for almost 20 years and when people in the midwest got tired of being tossed about like so much floatsam they turned to each other and started propane and electric co-ops which made the big boys start paying attention.

Handi :)

the_fat_man
10-15-2009, 03:41 PM
This is why I questioned the feasibility of a player co-op data service in another thread. No one has responded which is fine, but seems like a nice alternative to me.

I was in the propane business for almost 20 years and when people in the midwest got tired of being tossed about like so much floatsam they turned to each other and started propane and electric co-ops which made the big boys start paying attention.

Handi :)

Yeah, it's kind of shocking to me that so many people are paying so much money for data. INDIVIDUALLY. :rolleyes: Or so they'll admit to.

Nothing like getting bent over by a data supplier. :lol:

highnote
10-17-2009, 12:32 AM
This is why I questioned the feasibility of a player co-op data service in another thread. No one has responded which is fine, but seems like a nice alternative to me.

I was in the propane business for almost 20 years and when people in the midwest got tired of being tossed about like so much floatsam they turned to each other and started propane and electric co-ops which made the big boys start paying attention.

Handi :)

Handi,
How would your co-op work?

Here on PA, I've mentioned the idea of jointly creating charts from video and even created software and a database to do it, but it's a lot of work and so the idea never caught on.

I was hoping it would catch on and that anyone who participated could get the data for free.

Handiman
10-17-2009, 01:25 PM
I haven't worked out all the fine points as of yet. I still have to talk to Victor on Monday hopefully.

In general terms there would be a small board of directors, say 5 or so, and someone who would administer the co-op on a daily basis. That would not be me, as my health isn't stable enough for a project like this to depend on for very long.

I haven't said anything, but Jeff from Jcapper seems to have a sterling reputation here and with the advent of HANA, it would seem a perfect fit maybe.

Anyway, depending on the demands financially of Equibase, a couple of options would be to have a single product purchase, a monthly plan as was available through TSN and maybe a dual level membership. One for the occasional periodic player and another level for the more involved player.

Membership could be limited or left open depending on Equibase's fear of whoring out the market. The co-op would be strictly for the benefit of the player and as a result would be a non-profit entity.

Anyway just some thoughts.

Handi :)