Whats with the STS "would beat" posts?

[tzipi]

"STS would beat all here. Apples and oranges"

Yup these geniuses would have War Admiral over Seabiscuit. Sec over Onion.
"No comparison,idiots. They're apples and oranges" :D

STS did'nt come. He retired. He's never raced here. We don't know. His races were mostly yielding turf. Would be hard/fast turf here. Or Classic would be like a fast poly"turf" too. You don't know and never will.

[tzipi]

Not saying debates are fun,they are. But these "automatic" wins without even coming around this part is just a little crazy.
Man O war and Sec lost and they would WHIP STS all over the place :lol:

[Gorgeous George]

do i feel a hint of jealousy from a bitter lemon?:lol:

[Moyers Pond]

Not saying debates are fun,they are. But these "automatic" wins without even coming around this part is just a little crazy.
Man O war and Sec lost and they would WHIP STS all over the place :lol:

I doubt anyone whips Sea The Stars in anything. In fact, I don't think Man O War or even Secretariat could beat him on the turf. He is probably the greatest turf horse ever. And this isn't Rachel Alexandra, Curlin, Big Brown type hype where every year America tries to declare the latest 110 beyer horse the greatest. I think Ghostzapper would humiliate all of these "great" horses that have come about recently by beating very mediocre horses.

[Gorgeous George]

I doubt anyone whips Sea The Stars in anything. In fact, I don't think Man O War or even Secretariat could beat him on the turf. He is probably the greatest turf horse ever. And this isn't Rachel Alexandra, Curlin, Big Brown type hype where every year America tries to declare the latest 110 beyer horse the greatest. I think Ghostzapper would humiliate all of these "great" horses that have come about recently by beating very mediocre horses.

As CJ's Dad would say, Am I allowed to give an AMEN MOYERS POND ?

[11cashcall]

You don't know and never will.


I just love these kind of commments.

[tzipi]

Well,not jealous of a horse who's never ran here. Nice horse yes. Why would I hate the horse? He's done nothing wrong. I just said he's not running so why the automatic win talk.

People would be all over the War Admiral win over Seabiscuit if W.A was scratched out of the match race. That was just my point. Top horses do lose. You sure he'd handle the different turf here. Would'nt be soggy in Cali prob.

Again horse is cool with me. Just like Zenyatta is. Just mad at her connections. Can I see STS times up against other top horses at turf dist? I really don't know how they stack up. Don;t know why my post is trashing horse. Never did.

[tucker6]

I doubt anyone whips Sea The Stars in anything. In fact, I don't think even Secretariat could beat him on the turf.
That comment is certainly debatable, and likely false. Secretariat was supposedly better on turf than dirt according to his traniner and jockey. So, let's not go overboard about STS.

[46zilzal]

I doubt anyone whips Sea The Stars in anything. In fact, I don't think Man O War or even Secretariat could beat him on the turf. He is probably the greatest turf horse ever. And this isn't Rachel Alexandra, Curlin, Big Brown type hype where every year America tries to declare the latest 110 beyer horse the greatest. I think Ghostzapper would humiliate all of these "great" horses that have come about recently by beating very mediocre horses.
Ribot, Brigadier Gerrard, Mill Reef, Sea Bird II, the little girl who whipped the boys three times in the Melbourne Cup, the great Japanese champion who ran third with a bad trip in the Arc, Alleged, All Along...you are in sore need of a history lesson my friend.

Ghostzapper doesn't even belong on the same page as this current monster.

[tzipi]

That comment is certainly debatable, and likely false. Secretariat was supposedly better on turf than dirt according to his traniner and jockey. So, let's not go overboard about STS.

I feel same way. Off a few races and length wins,STS is the greatest off all time and better than Sec who ran a great race on the turf in the rain walking home in a 1 5/8ths race.

[46zilzal]

I feel same way. Off a few races and length wins,STS is the greatest off all time and better than Sec who ran a great race on the turf in the rain walking home in a 1 5/8ths race.
I believe you missed his track record performance beating the then leading candidate for Turf Horse of the Year Tentam the very first time he set foot on the grass in the Man O'War in 2:24 4/5and doing that WIRE TO WIRE without a bit of encouragement

[tzipi]

I believe you missed his track record performance beating the then leading candidate for Turf Horse of the Year Tentam the very first time he set foot on the grass in the Man O'War in 2:24 4/5and doing that WIRE TO WIRE without a bit of encouragement

No,I know. Just that why post everything when you just going to get hammered how STS is the best horse ever. 2:24 was great!

What was STS time at 1 1/2 race?

[Bochall]

This is like arguing that Tim Lincecum could strike out Babe Ruth...there is no answer/winner. STS and Man O War and Secretariat will never face one another, so the conjecture continues. Pointless IMO, and I will leave you with this: Could Reagan have defeated JFK in a presidential election???:D

[Tom]

STS is not coming, so his chance to prove it is gone. Not our decision.
BTW, who cares?:rolleyes:

[11cashcall]

You whats funny,is how some here have compared RA to Big Red & who imho
beat medicore feilds this yr.Yet STS beat some of the biggest feilds at different dis., winning 3 of the biggest races in Europe which previously has not been completed. The connections retire him(a disappointment to many)
& he's sub-par.RA has'ent competed victoriously beyond 1 1/8, retires in Sept.
& is furiously ga-ga overed.


78 days left in 2009. :lol:

[46zilzal]

STS is a monster who overcame adversity to win versus all comers.

[tzipi]

You whats funny,is how some here have compared RA to Big Red & who imho
beat medicore feilds this yr.Yet STS beat some of the biggest feilds at different dis., winning 3 of the biggest races in Europe which previously has not been completed. The connections retire him(a disappointment to many)
& he's sub-par.RA has'ent competed victoriously beyond 1 1/8, retires in Sept.
& is furiously ga-ga overed.


78 days left in 2009. :lol:


Rachael was retired???
Did'nt see her compared to Secretariat here?

Whats STS times (1 1/4,1 1/2)compared to Sec and other top turfers?

[46zilzal]

Rachael was retired???
Did'nt see her compared to Secretariat here?
Rachel Alexandra is not now, nor at any stage so far in her history even in the same universe as the best son of Bold Ruler.....not even close

[tzipi]

Rachel Alexandra is not now, nor at any stage so far in her history even in the same universe as the best son of Bold Ruler.....not even close

When did I say she was???????!!!! Read posts first please.

[11cashcall]

Rachael was retired???
Did'nt see her compared to Secretariat here?


Oh,yeah forgot that she'll be back in 2010 yada-yada-yada.Never heard that before.I say Curlin gets her first.Seen this before,value's too good at present & always strike while the iron's hot.

And yes there were comparisons.Not saying you,though there were in a thread abt time comparisons and what not.That makes it a comparison.

[11cashcall]

Whats STS times (1 1/4,1 1/2)compared to Sec and other top turfers?

R_O_T_F_L_M_A_O! Im not comparing the 2! Maybe you should read posts.

[tzipi]

R_O_T_F_L_M_A_O! Im not comparing the 2! Maybe you should read posts.


OMG you're are just dumb! When did I say you were! I talked about Rach being retired because I did'nt hear that and then said when did Sec and Rach get compared? Go retire Rachael again genius.

I THEN asked what are there times. Was just asking anyone!. When was it a knock or a laughing comparison? It was'nt obviously. Just for fun and knowledge,just want to see their time because I do not know their times on every race off the top of my head.

YEAH :lol: on you not reading correctly.Man,what an idiot!

[senortout]

This is like arguing that Tim Lincecum could strike out Babe Ruth...there is no answer/winner. STS and Man O War and Secretariat will never face one another, so the conjecture continues. Pointless IMO, and I will leave you with this: Could Reagan have defeated JFK in a presidential election???:D

woah! prettn'eer anybody could strike out Babe Ruth!

Yet while the Bambino was renowned for his healthy hacks, and held baseball's career strikeout record from 1926 until 1964, he now ranks a remote 87th in that shameful statistic. (Ruth's contemporary and teammate infielder Joe Sewell struck out no more than nine times in any of his last nine seasons.)"

senortout

[11cashcall]

OMG people are just dumb! When did I say you were. I talked about Rach being retired because I did'nt hear that and then said when did Sec and Rach get compared?

I THEN asked what are there times. Was just asking,when was it a knock or a laughing comparison.? Just for fun and knowledge,just want to see their time because I do not know their times on every race.

YEAH :lol: on you not reading correctly.Man,what an idiot!


Your post was phrased so that it appeared as such.Take a look at it.Geez.

[tzipi]

No.There was not one laugh or attack of words on that sentence. It was SEPERATED from your "Rachael is retired" :rolleyes: and your Rach and Sec comparison on the thread post.
Just asked about time comparisons because of all the comparisons of STS and other turfers.
It was also the second time I'm asking for times of STS compared to others on this thread.

[11cashcall]

No.There was not one laugh or attack of words on that sentence. It was SEPERATED from your "Rachael is retired" :rolleyes: and your Rach and Sec comparison on the thread post.
Just asked about time comparisons because of all the comparisons of STS and other turfers.

tzipi,it just did'nt sound like a ? to me. I understand now,thank you.If i get a chance to find the link(s) i'll post them up.

[11cashcall]

lo! there was a blotch on my screen that blocked out the ? mark. Now i see it....God time to clean the screen.

[tzipi]

Well just that it was 2nd person attacking for something I never said about Sec or Rach. Well third because I have never attacked STS the horse either. You ask a question or state something not agressive and it's as if you hate or are jealous of horse?

Ok well I saw Sec ran 1 1/2 over turf in 2:24.4
Can't find STS PP's.

[11cashcall]

Well just that it was 2nd person attacking for something I never said about Sec or Rach. Well third because I have never attacked STS the horse either. You ask a question or state something not agressive and it's as if you hate or are jealous of horse?

Ok well I saw Sec ran 1 1/2 over turf in 2:24.4
Can't find STS PP's.


My apologies! See above post.

[FenceBored]

Well just that it was 2nd person attacking for something I never said about Sec or Rach. Well third because I have never attacked STS the horse either. You ask a question or state something not agressive and it's as if you hate or are jealous of horse?

Ok well I saw Sec ran 1 1/2 over turf in 2:24.4
Can't find STS PP's.


STS 12f races:
Epsom Derby - good - 2:36.74
Arc de Triomphe - good- 2:26.30

[UK View]

"STS would beat all here. Apples and oranges"

Yup these geniuses would have War Admiral over Seabiscuit. Sec over Onion.
"No comparison,idiots. They're apples and oranges" :D

STS did'nt come. He retired. He's never raced here. We don't know. His races were mostly yielding turf. Would be hard/fast turf here. Or Classic would be like a fast poly"turf" too. You don't know and never will.

You are correct tzipi in saying we will never know. And that is a shame. However I just wanted to pick you up on your point about the ground Sea The Stars raced on. In his 6 Group 1 wins this year they were raced on Good to Firm (x2), Good (x3) and Good to Yielding (1). John Oxx has always stated that Sea The Stars would perform better the quicker the ground.

[UK View]

Well,not jealous of a horse who's never ran here. Nice horse yes. Why would I hate the horse? He's done nothing wrong. I just said he's not running so why the automatic win talk.

People would be all over the War Admiral win over Seabiscuit if W.A was scratched out of the match race. That was just my point. Top horses do lose. You sure he'd handle the different turf here. Would'nt be soggy in Cali prob.

Again horse is cool with me. Just like Zenyatta is. Just mad at her connections. Can I see STS times up against other top horses at turf dist? I really don't know how they stack up. Don;t know why my post is trashing horse. Never did.

Very difficult to compare times in the UK because of such variations in the ground etc. There is not as much focus on the times in Europe as there undoubtedly is in the US. He certainly is the best horse I have ever seen in my lifetime though and had he run in the Classic he would have gone off long odds on in the UK.

[tzipi]

Very difficult to compare times in the UK because of such variations in the ground etc. There is not as much focus on the times in Europe as there undoubtedly is in the US. He certainly is the best horse I have ever seen in my lifetime though and had he run in the Classic he would have gone off long odds on in the UK.

Long odds on STS?

Don't think STS should ever go off at big odds. Polytrack is pretty much turf I think as it runs that way for turfers.

[nearco]

Long odds on STS?

Don't think STS should ever go off at big odds. Polytrack is pretty much turf I think as it runs that way for turfers.

Odds-on... he forgot the hyphen.... long odds-on would be 1/6, or 1/5, 1/10 etc.
He was odds-on for most of his races.

[garyoz]

From today's Times of London:

Despite Sea The Stars’ allure to fans of the sport, there was widespread acclaim for Oxx’s decision on internet chat rooms that clogged with tributes from the moment his retirement was announced. Too many iconic horses have been taken to the well once too often, notably Dancing Brave and Nijinsky, the 1970 Triple Crown winner, whose Champion Stakes defeat tarnished his memory.

Against that, a Breeders’ Cup victory for Sea The Stars would have raised the bar so high that his single-season deeds could never be bettered; only matched. It is a fitting tribute to his prowess, to the consummate ease of his triumphs, that an arduous trip to California was under consideration.

On balance, Oxx’s decision to retire Sea The Stars was the last in a series of correct calls that have allowed the colt to flourish. At no stage has Oxx even considered succumbing to temptations that derail equine careers. For the first time in nine lifetime starts on Arc day, Sea The Stars sweated through the pre-race formalities. The well was running dry.

[tucker6]

From today's Times of London:

Despite Sea The Stars’ allure to fans of the sport, there was widespread acclaim for Oxx’s decision on internet chat rooms that clogged with tributes from the moment his retirement was announced. Too many iconic horses have been taken to the well once too often, notably Dancing Brave and Nijinsky, the 1970 Triple Crown winner, whose Champion Stakes defeat tarnished his memory.

Against that, a Breeders’ Cup victory for Sea The Stars would have raised the bar so high that his single-season deeds could never be bettered; only matched. It is a fitting tribute to his prowess, to the consummate ease of his triumphs, that an arduous trip to California was under consideration.

On balance, Oxx’s decision to retire Sea The Stars was the last in a series of correct calls that have allowed the colt to flourish. At no stage has Oxx even considered succumbing to temptations that derail equine careers. For the first time in nine lifetime starts on Arc day, Sea The Stars sweated through the pre-race formalities. The well was running dry.
To quote the British, "that's a bunch of rubbish". Say what you want, the only reason he was retired was that the connections were afraid his value would decline next year. That means they believed his form would not hold in year four. I can't see any other way around that assumption. So, what I am led to believe by some on this thread is that STS is a top five all-time horse off six months of serious racing and only nine lifetime starts. Is that right??

[Irish Boy]

I feel like I've read this thread about 37 times already.

Can someone please start a "why I can't stand TVG" thread? You know, just to keep things fresh.

[Bochall]

woah! prettn'eer anybody could strike out Babe Ruth!

Yet while the Bambino was renowned for his healthy hacks, and held baseball's career strikeout record from 1926 until 1964, he now ranks a remote 87th in that shameful statistic. (Ruth's contemporary and teammate infielder Joe Sewell struck out no more than nine times in any of his last nine seasons.)"

senortout Nice one...:)

[nearco]

To quote the British, "that's a bunch of rubbish". Say what you want, the only reason he was retired was that the connections were afraid his value would decline next year. That means they believed his form would not hold in year four. I can't see any other way around that assumption.

No, that's not true. It's financial plain and simple. The horse is worth a fortune, can and will be sold for a fortune, and will generate a fortune at stud. Much more than he ever could on the track.

So, what I am led to believe by some on this thread is that STS is a top five all-time horse off six months of serious racing and only nine lifetime starts. Is that right??

Yes that is right. That is how horses in Europe are judged.
I know that as an American you won't agree, but look at all the European greats, and that is how they are judged.
Sea Bird is considered a veritable Pegasus, he ran only 5 times as a 3yo, then was retired. But ask anyone who saw him run and their eyes will glaze over as they stare off into the distance and they talk of him in hushed tones. Seriously though, he was considered that special.

See, you've got to remember a couple of things here i) the season in Europe is quite short. Many, or most, of the quality 3yos horses will not make their first start till the first Sat in May. The season then is wrapped up in early October. So yeah, it's basically a six month season. There is not flat racing from Nov to Apr, except for cheap low level horses racing on the all-weather at Lingfield and Wolverhampton ii) The best European 3yos have almost invariably been retired at the end of their 3yo season. That's the way it's always been, going way way back. A top horse that raced at four was the exception, not the norm. So you can only compare to what has gone before, and if you are comparing to the likes of Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Shergar, Dancing Brave, who any student of European racing will tell you are up there as the best of the best to ever trod on European grass, then STS stacks up quite adequately.
I know that all this is odd to American eyes, why, you have horses over the decades who not alone raced from Jan to Nov, but won Triple Crowns and then came back the next year to race again. But to view this through an American filter would be unfair, just as it would be to dismiss any American horse because they hadn't won going left AND right handed, over straight Mile course, up and down hills, with stiff up hill finishes, and beating older horses over 10 or 12f in July.
Vive le difference, and all that jazz.

[Humph]

No, that's not true. It's financial plain and simple. The horse is worth a fortune, can and will be sold for a fortune, and will generate a fortune at stud. Much more than he ever could on the track.



Yes that is right. That is how horses in Europe are judged.
I know that as an American you won't agree, but look at all the European greats, and that is how they are judged.
Sea Bird is considered a veritable Pegasus, he ran only 5 times as a 3yo, then was retired. But ask anyone who saw him run and their eyes will glaze over as they stare off into the distance and they talk of him in hushed tones. Seriously though, he was considered that special.

See, you've got to remember a couple of things here i) the season in Europe is quite short. Many, or most, of the quality 3yos horses will not make their first start till the first Sat in May. The season then is wrapped up in early October. So yeah, it's basically a six month season. There is not flat racing from Nov to Apr, except for cheap low level horses racing on the all-weather at Lingfield and Wolverhampton ii) The best European 3yos have almost invariably been retired at the end of their 3yo season. That's the way it's always been, going way way back. A top horse that raced at four was the exception, not the norm. So you can only compare to what has gone before, and if you are comparing to the likes of Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Shergar, Dancing Brave, who any student of European racing will tell you are up there as the best of the best to ever trod on European grass, then STS stacks up quite adequately.
I know that all this is odd to American eyes, why, you have horses over the decades who not alone raced from Jan to Nov, but won Triple Crowns and then came back the next year to race again. But to view this through an American filter would be unfair, just as it would be to dismiss any American horse because they hadn't won going left AND right handed, over straight Mile course, up and down hills, with stiff up hill finishes, and beating older horses over 10 or 12f in July.
Vive le difference, and all that jazz.


It is important to remember that turf flat racing is only one part of racing's whole across the water and that National Hunt (jump) takes centre stage , particularly in Britain and Ireland , for a large chunk of the year.

[tucker6]

No, that's not true. It's financial plain and simple. The horse is worth a fortune, can and will be sold for a fortune, and will generate a fortune at stud. Much more than he ever could on the track.



Yes that is right. That is how horses in Europe are judged.
I know that as an American you won't agree, but look at all the European greats, and that is how they are judged.
Sea Bird is considered a veritable Pegasus, he ran only 5 times as a 3yo, then was retired. But ask anyone who saw him run and their eyes will glaze over as they stare off into the distance and they talk of him in hushed tones. Seriously though, he was considered that special.

See, you've got to remember a couple of things here i) the season in Europe is quite short. Many, or most, of the quality 3yos horses will not make their first start till the first Sat in May. The season then is wrapped up in early October. So yeah, it's basically a six month season. There is not flat racing from Nov to Apr, except for cheap low level horses racing on the all-weather at Lingfield and Wolverhampton ii) The best European 3yos have almost invariably been retired at the end of their 3yo season. That's the way it's always been, going way way back. A top horse that raced at four was the exception, not the norm. So you can only compare to what has gone before, and if you are comparing to the likes of Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Shergar, Dancing Brave, who any student of European racing will tell you are up there as the best of the best to ever trod on European grass, then STS stacks up quite adequately.
I know that all this is odd to American eyes, why, you have horses over the decades who not alone raced from Jan to Nov, but won Triple Crowns and then came back the next year to race again. But to view this through an American filter would be unfair, just as it would be to dismiss any American horse because they hadn't won going left AND right handed, over straight Mile course, up and down hills, with stiff up hill finishes, and beating older horses over 10 or 12f in July.
Vive le difference, and all that jazz.
Nearco,

Nice reply. Yes, I'm seeing through American eyes. Thanks for the Euro perspective. I guess I'm looking for a more sporting owner that already has a bank vault named after them, and just wants to race horses. I can't imagine the money was that important in the STS decision considering their wealth. They had a chance to change the standard over there, and did not take it. The pity.

[UK View]

Long odds on STS?

Don't think STS should ever go off at big odds. Polytrack is pretty much turf I think as it runs that way for turfers.


Sorry, I meant long odds-on.

He probably would've been around 4/7 for the Classic had he run in the UK. Even shorter if Zenyatta had run in the Ladies Classic.

[PaceAdvantage]

RA has'ent competed victoriously beyond 1 1/8, retires in Sept.Wrong on both counts.