View Full Version : Running a horse in TWO BC races
WinterTriangle
10-13-2009, 01:50 AM
Have ya'll ever seen this?
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52943/abrams-seeks-rare-double-with-lethal-heat (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52943/abrams-seeks-rare-double-with-lethal-heat)
Lethal Heat running in both the Ladies Classic and Turf Sprint
A full day's rest would be nice. Lemme see, the LC is in the LATE afternoon on Friday, the Sprint is in the MORNING on Saturday.
:lol: That means the horse has just enough time to s, s & s before returning to run her next race.
WinterTriangle
10-13-2009, 02:11 AM
Oh, I know it's been done, but in the BC? :)
Running the 2nd race would put Lethal heat at 8 races in 13 weeks. I guess he knows what he's doing. He's run Hot n' Dusty 17 times this year.
Hope it's a cool day.
Moyers Pond
10-13-2009, 09:01 AM
Can't happen in this climate with the Eight Belles and Barabaro tragedies only years past.
This horse breaks down in the 2nd race and horse racing would be finished.
Opportunity to get two positives on one dose! :eek::eek:;)
Bochall
10-13-2009, 09:55 AM
Dutrow ran a horse on consecutive days at Del Park a few years ago. His name escapes me but I believe they were both stakes. This is a dumb idea.
Bochall
10-13-2009, 09:56 AM
...and besides, isnt the ladies Classic the last race on Fri and the Turf Sprint the first race on Sat??? Thats a 15hr turnaround.
ghostyapper
10-13-2009, 10:16 AM
The dumbest idea I've heard in a while. There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin. The stress of competing in 1 breeders cup race is bad enough, he expects this horse to do it twice in 24 hours.
Hopefully he'll come to his senses and scrap this stupid idea.
PaceAdvantage
10-13-2009, 10:33 AM
Can't happen in this climate with the Eight Belles and Barabaro tragedies only years past.
This horse breaks down in the 2nd race and horse racing would be finished.We heard all this same baloney when Rachel was being considered for the Preakness...."oh...she's just a filly...you can't run her in a field of big bad colts...she'll break down...oh my....what will we do....(insert hand-wringing here)."
Just stop it already...plenty of trainers have run horses on a day or two rest and NOTHING bad has happened...
Eight Belles had HOW MANY DAYS REST BEFORE THE DERBY?
Barbaro had HOW MANY DAYS REST BEFORE THE PREAKNESS?
I rest my case.
joanied
10-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Someone call a doctor...Abrams needs his head examined :bang:
I have no real problem with a quick turn around...but this one is ridiculous:ThmbDown:
PaceAdvantage
10-13-2009, 10:57 AM
I have no real problem with a quick turn around...but this one is ridiculous:ThmbDown:Why is it ridiculous if the owner and trainer feel it's something they wish to accomplish?
As I've just pointed out, you can have weeks of rest between races and still break down and die on the track.
We also all know of horses who have turned around in a day or two and been competitive each time.
So why is it ridiculous?
I would term it unique and interesting.
joanied
10-13-2009, 11:01 AM
Why is it ridiculous if the owner and trainer feel it's something they wish to accomplish?
As I've just pointed out, you can have weeks of rest between races and still break down and die on the track.
We also all know of horses who have turned around in a day or two and been competitive each time.
So why is it ridiculous?
I would term it unique and interesting.
My opinion has nothing to do with the possibility of breaking down...did I say that...did I even hint at it?
She's done this before, and did well...and maybe she can do it again...and do well...but, IMHO...it's just a little too much to expect her to run well a mere 15 hours after a hard race like the Distaff is going to be.
I just think it's a dumb idea..."interesting & unique" doesn't make it the right thing to do.
PaceAdvantage
10-13-2009, 11:06 AM
My opinion has nothing to do with the possibility of breaking down...Well, Moyers Pond introduced the "break down" phrase, and you commented afterwards about it being "ridiculous," thus I (wrongly) assumed you two were on similar pages.
My bad.
So, if you're not worried about her breaking down, are you afraid she might embarrass herself and her connections, or perhaps suffer a less severe injury?
joanied
10-13-2009, 11:33 AM
Well, Moyers Pond introduced the "break down" phrase, and you commented afterwards about it being "ridiculous," thus I (wrongly) assumed you two were on similar pages.
My bad.
So, if you're not worried about her breaking down, are you afraid she might embarrass herself and her connections, or perhaps suffer a less severe injury?
Thanks for the apology...guess it was easy enough to mis understand my post...
No...I'm not worried Lethal Heat would embarrass herself...she's a top filly (IMO) and has the class and courage to run well...but really, PA...think about this...yes, horses have run back within a couple of days...but this is a 15 hour window...15 hours...barely gives her enough time to lay down and take a good snooze...in this case, IMO, it is simply too much to ask a horse to do:faint:
the_fat_man
10-13-2009, 11:40 AM
What I find particularly disturbing here is not so much that the horse is running on 2 successive days, which is bad enough, but, rather, that she's asked to run on 2 surfaces and different distances. One would think that a horse would be trained differently for a route than it would be for a sprint. Apparently, Abrams, and quite a few other trainers, who shuffle their charges between sprints to routes on a regular basis, has no use of this.
And, it's thus incredible that some of today's track and field runners don't pick up on this. Imagine how many distance runners (milers and beyond) could be setting world records running the 100M, 200M or 400M sprints. And, how many sprinters could be setting distance records.
Sort of puts things in perspective as to what we're dealing with when it comes to today's Tbred trainer.
cj's dad
10-13-2009, 12:13 PM
What I find particularly disturbing here is not so much that the horse is running on 2 successive days, which is bad enough, but, rather, that she's asked to run on 2 surfaces and different distances. One would think that a horse would be trained differently for a route than it would be for a sprint. Apparently, Abrams, and quite a few other trainers, who shuffle their charges between sprints to routes on a regular basis, has no use of this.
And, it's thus incredible that some of today's track and field runners don't pick up on this. Imagine how many distance runners (milers and beyond) could be setting world records running the 100M, 200M or 400M sprints. And, how many sprinters could be setting distance records.
Sort of puts things in perspective as to what we're dealing with when it comes to today's Tbred trainer.
Humans compared to T'breds ?? Apples and oranges ??
cj's dad
10-13-2009, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the apology...guess it was easy enough to mis understand my post...
No...I'm not worried Lethal Heat would embarrass herself...she's a top filly (IMO) and has the class and courage to run well...but really, PA...think about this...yes, horses have run back within a couple of days...but this is a 15 hour window...15 hours...barely gives her enough time to lay down and take a good snooze...in this case, IMO, it is simply too much to ask a horse to do:faint:
What a build up this would create between day 1 (if she wins) and day 2; and imagine if she and her connections pull it off ? WOW !!
I would think (and hope) that a poor performance on day 1 would lead to a scratch on day 2 !!
joanied
10-13-2009, 01:04 PM
What a build up this would create between day 1 (if she wins) and day 2; and imagine if she and her connections pull it off ? WOW !!
I would think (and hope) that a poor performance on day 1 would lead to a scratch on day 2 !!
I can't imagine Lethal Heat giving a poor preformance...but ya never know...and if they pull it off...I will cheer for Lethal Heat, but I will still not agree at this sort of 'race tactic' is something I can consider as a good move...sorry, cj's dad...I'm stickin' to my guns on this one....15 hours between two tough races, IMO...crazy!
:)
RobinFromIreland
10-13-2009, 01:17 PM
Sceptre won the 2000 Guineas and 2 days later the 1000 Guineas. She placed 4th in the Derby and 2 days later won the Oaks. She ran twice at Royal Ascot (won St. James' Palace Stakes), and twice at Glorious Goodwood (won Nassau Stakes 3 days after being beaten in Sussex Stakes and galloped on the 2 days in between). Won the St. Leger but beaten 2 days later in the Park Hill.
Personally I have no problem with running a horse on back-to-back days.
LottaKash
10-13-2009, 01:21 PM
Imagine if you could, a horse in the wild, being hounded by predators, and the horse, twice or more in one day, was being chased fast and far on the same day...Probably, if the horse escaped the predator(s bite, it would be just fine.....
For the Standardbred horse (harness horse), whlile a breed apart from t-breds, and more so in the past history than today, the champion tiered horses are and were expected to win at least two heats on the same racing card & day in order to take the trophy in certain "big-named" special events.... And in pas5t history there were 3 or more heats contested, at full tilt, before a winner was crowned....In harness racing this was the case twice this year.....All the horses came out of those heats ok, as far as I know...
I find it hard to believe that some of the great t-bred horses are retired after only 8 or 10 starts, when there are standardbred horses that are putting in 35 or 40 races in a year and still winning, and some at the age of 14 years before being retired for good.....Harness horses, I know are a hardier breed, but still, as for these prima-"dons & donnas" t-bred horses, really, a gruelling year is 8 races ?....Makes me wonder a bit...
I think any horse, of any of the two breeds, can make it just fine racing in two consecutive days...
best,
11cashcall
10-13-2009, 01:49 PM
Why is it ridiculous if the owner and trainer feel it's something they wish to accomplish?
As I've just pointed out, you can have weeks of rest between races and still break down and die on the track.
We also all know of horses who have turned around in a day or two and been competitive each time.
So why is it ridiculous?
I would term it unique and interesting.
Absollutely,horse's have in the past come from 5 day layoffs and won.Not to mention this horse has already been wheeled back quick.
If Zen does'nt go to the LC then LH is my bet! And will give her a hard look going downhill. There was that insane fraction last yr. Trainer knows what
he's doing. Now mind you had this yrs BC been on dirt & he was toying with the idea I'd be concerned. Horse is sound & feels confortable on the surface. All the power to him!
46zilzal
10-13-2009, 01:53 PM
We have some owners here who are very supportive of the game, have a good one that ran very well in the Longacres Mile. They are trying to supplement a Mt. Livermore horse, Teide, to the BC Dirt Mile.
They have a working relationship with Darley stud and take many of their culls and do marvelous things with them. This one seems to keep improving so why not. They have the money and it will give them a thrill.
Good luck to them
11cashcall
10-13-2009, 01:57 PM
What a build up this would create between day 1 (if she wins) and day 2; and imagine if she and her connections pull it off ? WOW !!
I would think (and hope) that a poor performance on day 1 would lead to a scratch on day 2 !!
Excellent point, and just imagine what it would do for the pro-ride surface
reputation.
senortout
10-13-2009, 02:19 PM
Consider this....trainer uses Friday race as a tune-up(paid workout) for Saturdays event.
So many things have not been discussed on this board.
F'rinstance, will the owners have fees to put up for each race? Supplements or other?
senortout
FenceBored
10-13-2009, 02:27 PM
Consider this....trainer uses Friday race as a tune-up(paid workout) for Saturdays event.
So many things have not been discussed on this board.
F'rinstance, will the owners have fees to put up for each race? Supplements or other?
senortout
Lethal Heat is BC nominated, so she will not have supplemental nomination fees.
The pre-entry and entry fees for the Ladies Classic total $60k.
The pre-entry and entry fees combined for the Turf Sprint are $30k.
To enter both races they'll be putting up $90k.
senortout
10-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Now we're getting at the nuts and bolts of this thing...how far back do they pay in these races....etc?
WinterTriangle
10-13-2009, 03:31 PM
Well, I posted it because I thought it was interesting and unique.
Why is it ridiculous if the owner and trainer feel it's something they wish to accomplish?
Um.....wishes are all well and good, but it's the HORSE who needs to "accomplish" this.
I would surely not base it on "wishes" by connections.
However, if they believe, with a decent amount of certainty, that the HORSE can accomplish this, then by all means......
Hope Lethal Heat can run FULL TILT in the 2nd race. I probably wouldn't wager her in the 2nd one. :)
senortout
10-13-2009, 05:19 PM
Well, I posted it because I thought it was interesting and unique.
Um.....wishes are all well and good, but it's the HORSE who needs to "accomplish" this.
I would surely not base it on "wishes" by connections.
However, if they believe, with a decent amount of certainty, that the HORSE can accomplish this, then by all means......
Hope Lethal Heat can run FULL TILT in the 2nd race. I probably wouldn't wager her in the 2nd one. :)
I guess I am not understanding...you want LH to run all out in the 2nd race?......to eliminate all the front speed and let a closer win maybe? Please explain further. Thanks
senortout
CryingForTheHorses
10-13-2009, 08:00 PM
The dumbest idea I've heard in a while. There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin. The stress of competing in 1 breeders cup race is bad enough, he expects this horse to do it twice in 24 hours.
Hopefully he'll come to his senses and scrap this stupid idea.
Wouldnt be so dumb if she won the both of them!!!..He may intend to run in both but Im sure he wont if she isnt right...Its the field you hook in horseracing not the name of the race or the amount its worth..If the connections feel she is ok they why not?
Marlin
10-13-2009, 08:07 PM
This to me is awesome. It will eclipse anything else on BC day. I love it, I want some more of it. Big fan of this!
Valuist
10-13-2009, 08:09 PM
Dutrow ran a horse in two stakes in two days. I believe one was at Monmouth and the other Delaware. The horse's name escapes me....think it was Mr. (something).
Supposedly a horse won the Illinois Derby (or maybe Sportsman's Derby) on one day, got on a train for Cincinnati and won a stake at Latonia the next day. This was back in the 30s, I believe.
Robert Goren
10-13-2009, 11:41 PM
About 20 years ago at state fair park in Lincoln Ne, I saw a horse win 3 times in 4 days. All 6F claimers wire to wire. It was the end of year for the circuit.
nijinski
10-14-2009, 12:25 AM
Abrams started out training standardbreds and he seems to have never left that mindset. I have just never taken to his methods , looks like he just enters to get a check at times and clearly his horses have alot of heart so he does often collect.
joanied
10-14-2009, 10:05 AM
Everyone in favor of this brings up examples of horses being wheeled back in 2 days...but in the case of Lethal heat...we're talking about somewhere around 15 hours turn around time...not 2 days:faint: .
This being interesting, unique, exciting, something for the BC to highlight as a great feat, if she pulls off the 2 wins, how incredible it'll be for racing, hats off to the trainer...yadda,yadda,yadda...all that is besides the point...
now I have said this before...I have absolutley no problem with wheeling a horse back in 2 days, and in fact, I beleive today's TB is not racing nearly as much as it should be...I would like to see most horses run every two weeks, some every 10 days...it's my opinion that one reason the TB is getting weaker and so many break down...especially the breakdowns and maybe even bleeding...is the fact they just don't get to run enough...weakens the bones, muscles, tendons, lungs and heart...
but, I'm sorry, I gotta draw the line at racing this filly again in 15 hours time.
miesque
10-14-2009, 10:20 AM
The filly in the middle of this debate happens to be one of my absolute favorite horses in training at the moment and I have been following her closely ever since she won her debut. When I was at Hollywood Park in July for the Hollywood Gold Cup, her owner Madeleine Auerbach knew that I was a big fan of Lethal Heat was kind enough to invite me to see her back in the barn and spend a little time with her and I can tell you that she is very near and dear to the whole barn and treated like the princess she is and I firmly believe that if after running on Friday she does not come out of the race 100% in line with expectations that she will not race on Saturday. I am actually more concerned that she keeps herself together in the paddock and post parade then the quick turn around. Keep in mind she is a horse that is used to running often and quick turn around so this is not like a horse that runs every 6 weeks wheeling back the next day. Just my two cents worth.
andymays
10-14-2009, 10:53 AM
The filly in the middle of this debate happens to be one of my absolute favorite horses in training at the moment and I have been following her closely ever since she won her debut. When I was at Hollywood Park in July for the Hollywood Gold Cup, her owner Madeleine Auerbach knew that I was a big fan of Lethal Heat was kind enough to invite me to see her back in the barn and spend a little time with her and I can tell you that she is very near and dear to the whole barn and treated like the princess she is and I firmly believe that if after running on Friday she does not come out of the race 100% in line with expectations that she will not race on Saturday. I am actually more concerned that she keeps herself together in the paddock and post parade then the quick turn around. Keep in mind she is a horse that is used to running often and quick turn around so this is not like a horse that runs every 6 weeks wheeling back the next day. Just my two cents worth.
I saw her a few days before Del Mar started. I was in the barn area with a freind who has some horses with Barry. I know Barry casually but a couple of my friends know him well. The guy loves his horses and puts his heart and soul into his work. He's unorthadox to say the least and spots his horses based on feel (gut instinct). They are his horses and he can do whatever he wants as far as choosing races. He wouldn't put one in danger just for money.
Having said that she might be able to get a minor award in the Ladies Classic but has no shot in the turf sprint whatsoever.
joanied
10-15-2009, 12:18 PM
miesque...
Thanks for jumping in here...your post has made me feel better about this thing...getting a 'first hand account' of Lethal Heat and how much the barn adores her makes me feel better...I know the obvious, that Abrams is a good trainer (and
it is known he'll do some unorthodox things)...and it's apparent with your post, that they have her best interest at heart...yet, I still feel a 15 hour wheel back is too short a time...for any horse...but, that is my opinion, and since I have no idea of how this fillies 'constitution' is...how strong a filly she is, how much work she is capable of...because she'll have to work mighty hard to run two tough races in so short a time span...no doubt, after the Distaff they will watch her closely, and of course, they can scratch her the next morning if they feel she might be a little tired after the Distaff...after all is said and done...her connections know what they are doing...love her and treat her, as you put it, like a queen...so, at least, I find solace in knowing they will not take a shot at the Turf Sprint unless they are 100% certain she can deal with it.
I still beleive:eek: 15 hours between races is too short a time span:D ...
andymays...it goes without saying that she is their horse and they can do anything they want with her...and confirms the fact they will not take a chance at hurting Lethal Heat...but andy...do you really think she has little chance at getting even a piece of the Distaff? She did just take 2nd in Zenyatta's 'Lady's Secret'...IMO, she has a good shot at taking a piece of this pie...and folks ill see her 2nd place to Zenyatta and lay some $$ down...after the feild is set, I will prob'ly use her in my picks for the Distaff...as for the Turf Sprint...I have no idea...but, obviously, Abrams thinks she'll run well on that surface.
Anyway...if nothing else, following this story is gonna be interesting, to say the least.
depalma113
10-15-2009, 01:17 PM
Someone needs to explain to Mr. Abrams that horses can be pre entered in two races, but connections must chose a single race when final entries are due.
andymays
10-15-2009, 01:30 PM
miesque...
Thanks for jumping in here...your post has made me feel better about this thing...getting a 'first hand account' of Lethal Heat and how much the barn adores her makes me feel better...I know the obvious, that Abrams is a good trainer (and
it is known he'll do some unorthodox things)...and it's apparent with your post, that they have her best interest at heart...yet, I still feel a 15 hour wheel back is too short a time...for any horse...but, that is my opinion, and since I have no idea of how this fillies 'constitution' is...how strong a filly she is, how much work she is capable of...because she'll have to work mighty hard to run two tough races in so short a time span...no doubt, after the Distaff they will watch her closely, and of course, they can scratch her the next morning if they feel she might be a little tired after the Distaff...after all is said and done...her connections know what they are doing...love her and treat her, as you put it, like a queen...so, at least, I find solace in knowing they will not take a shot at the Turf Sprint unless they are 100% certain she can deal with it.
I still beleive:eek: 15 hours between races is too short a time span:D ...
andymays...it goes without saying that she is their horse and they can do anything they want with her...and confirms the fact they will not take a chance at hurting Lethal Heat...but andy...do you really think she has little chance at getting even a piece of the Distaff? She did just take 2nd in Zenyatta's 'Lady's Secret'...IMO, she has a good shot at taking a piece of this pie...and folks ill see her 2nd place to Zenyatta and lay some $$ down...after the feild is set, I will prob'ly use her in my picks for the Distaff...as for the Turf Sprint...I have no idea...but, obviously, Abrams thinks she'll run well on that surface.
Anyway...if nothing else, following this story is gonna be interesting, to say the least.
I think I said she can get a piece of the Ladies Classic and if I didn't I misspoke. The Turf Sprint is the one I don't think she has a shot at.
The other thing everyone needs to remember is that the Ladies Classic is run at the end of the day on Friday and the Turf Sprint is run at the beginning of the day on Saturday. She will be running again in less than 24 hours.
This isn't the worst idea. I've always thought that this actually works well for fully fit horses.
They do it quite a lot in Britain, and it works fine.
Also, those who follow racing abroad, will remember that the American, Wesley Ward trained Cannonball (http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=691087) should have won the Golden Jubilee Stakes (g1) at Royal Ascot this year, only four days after his first race at Royal Ascot (also g1).
Final note, Godolphin do exceptionally well with horses who have run in the previous 7 days. Their win rate was 50% last time I checked.
Robert Fischer
10-15-2009, 02:18 PM
Because of the chance of using the 1st race as a "schooling", and the rampant misconception that the horse will breakdown, I'm against this unorthodox move.
The opportunity for abuse is there if for example the jockey were instructed to simply tuck her in behind horses under a Strong hold in the Ladies Classic, and never ask her -- Unless the race should fall apart and only if such a golden opportunity should arise to gain a placing(after which she would be scratched from the Turf Sprint). In a training-race scenario the horse could in theory benefit from the "schooling" in the Ladies Distaff and then have plenty left for the run in the Turf Sprint - however she would be stealing money from anyone who bet her in the Ladies Classic.
the_fat_man
10-15-2009, 02:33 PM
I think there are some trainers who actually train rationally. I remember, for example, an interview where Baffert, in discussing Midnight Lute, mentioned how he trained him differently for sprints than he did for routes. In fact, Baffert was surprised when the interviewer didn't seem to be aware that horses are 'prepared' differently for different distances.
So, it wouldn't be an issue for me, once again, if LH were to run 2 days consecutively. It's the change in distance (and less so, surface) that's problematic for me. And, I think, is has a lot to say about 12% Abrams. Let me put this in clearer light: LH, a with the pace type in routes, will be close early in the route race on Friday; then less than 24 hours later, she'll really have to crank it, SIGNIFICANTLY, as she chases some fast horses sprinting. It's not like the race will fall in her lap. She'll have to run and it'll GUT her. She's can't beat males of that caliber sprinting.
How exactly does this work? What other 'athlete' in world trains like this?
So,
1) run 2 days in a row
2) change in distance
3) change in surface
3) change is running style
wtf?
A sure recipe for success. :rolleyes:
FenceBored
10-15-2009, 02:42 PM
Because of the chance of using the 1st race as a "schooling", and the rampant misconception that the horse will breakdown, I'm against this unorthodox move.
The opportunity for abuse is there if for example the jockey were instructed to simply tuck her in behind horses under a Strong hold in the Ladies Classic, and never ask her -- Unless the race should fall apart and only if such a golden opportunity should arise to gain a placing(after which she would be scratched from the Turf Sprint). In a training-race scenario the horse could in theory benefit from the "schooling" in the Ladies Distaff and then have plenty left for the run in the Turf Sprint - however she would be stealing money from anyone who bet her in the Ladies Classic.
Do you really think they're going to throw away the $60k in entry fees intentionally running off the board in the $2m LC to school for a race with half the purse, and its own $30k in entry fees?
Robert Fischer
10-15-2009, 03:28 PM
Do you really think they're going to throw away the $60k in entry fees intentionally running off the board in the $2m LC to school for a race with half the purse, and its own $30k in entry fees?
i dont "really think" a horse would be dual-entered with any intention of running both races :p
FenceBored
10-15-2009, 03:34 PM
i dont "really think" a horse would be dual-entered with any intention of running both races :p
Then why post something that premised on the idea that she runs in both? :confused:
depalma113
10-15-2009, 05:30 PM
Then why post something that premised on the idea that she runs in both? :confused:
The Breeders Cup rules prohibit connections from running a horse in more than one Breeders Cup race.
joanied
10-15-2009, 05:47 PM
I think I said she can get a piece of the Ladies Classic and if I didn't I misspoke. The Turf Sprint is the one I don't think she has a shot at.
The other thing everyone needs to remember is that the Ladies Classic is run at the end of the day on Friday and the Turf Sprint is run at the beginning of the day on Saturday. She will be running again in less than 24 hours.
andymays...oopps:blush: ...my bad...you did say you thought she could get a peice of the Distaff :) (I can't get myself to say Ladies Classic...couldn't they call it the Distaff Classic:faint: )...
and that's the point I was trying to make...that the wheel back factor is about 15 hours.
Robert Fischer
10-15-2009, 05:50 PM
Then why post something that premised on the idea that she runs in both? :confused:
go to "time-out"
andymays
10-15-2009, 05:59 PM
andymays...oopps:blush: ...my bad...you did say you thought she could get a peice of the Distaff :) (I can't get myself to say Ladies Classic...couldn't they call it the Distaff Classic:faint: )...
and that's the point I was trying to make...that the wheel back factor is about 15 hours.
I like Barry but this is a bad idea. Wheeled back in 15 hours or so. No! Maybe I could see it if she was one of the favorites to win the turf sprint but she'd probably be 40-1 or more!
Pell Mell
10-15-2009, 06:02 PM
10am PDT. At the time of entry, a maximum of 14 horses (or 12 in the case of those races with a 12 horse maximum field) will be accepted for entry in each race based on the order of preference in the rankings established at pre-entry. A horse will be permitted to enter two Breeders' Cup Championship races if the horse is eligible for both races, the races will be contested on different days, the pre-entry and entry fees are paid for both races, and neither race is oversubscribed. A horse may not double-enter Breeders' Cup Championship races if this will cause another horse to be excluded from competing. Pre-entry and entry fees will not be refunded for the race in which the owner of the double-entered horse elects not to compete.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The rules don't actually say the horse can't run in 2 races but seems to assume that it wouldn't.:confused:
joanied
10-15-2009, 06:02 PM
The Breeders Cup rules prohibit connections from running a horse in more than one Breeders Cup race.
Well fer cryin' out loud :bang: ...I never thought about that:bang: and I guess none of us in the thread did either;) ...no doubt Abrams must know the rules...so everything we've posted about this has been for nothin'...she ain't gonna race in the two anyway...per the BC rules...and to that, I say...whew:faint: thank goodness.
But...I'm gonna say this anyway (again)...those that have been sorta in favor of this by mentioning quick turn around times...have any of those turn around times been within 24 hours...nope...so they mean nothing in this case (which we know now is not gonna be the case anyway)...
gm10...you used Wesley Ward's horse, Cannball for your example...trouble is...he didn't win the second race he ran in...4 days later...you even said "he should have won"
And, the fact they wheel back horse often in the UK is quite different than doing it here...in England, most often, the horses don't really get rolling until the last few furlongs...so, IMO, that doesn't count much in this discussion.
Again...IF this were to happen, and thankfully it can't...15 hours, folks...15 hours!!!!!
joanied
10-15-2009, 07:16 PM
10am PDT. At the time of entry, a maximum of 14 horses (or 12 in the case of those races with a 12 horse maximum field) will be accepted for entry in each race based on the order of preference in the rankings established at pre-entry. A horse will be permitted to enter two Breeders' Cup Championship races if the horse is eligible for both races, the races will be contested on different days, the pre-entry and entry fees are paid for both races, and neither race is oversubscribed. A horse may not double-enter Breeders' Cup Championship races if this will cause another horse to be excluded from competing. Pre-entry and entry fees will not be refunded for the race in which the owner of the double-entered horse elects not to compete.
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The rules don't actually say the horse can't run in 2 races but seems to assume that it wouldn't.:confused:
Hmmmmm...that does kinda leave a hole open within the confines of the rules...you would think 'they' would make it a little :confused: clearer than what it says in the rule you posted, Pell Mell.
If Abrams decides to actually do this crazy thing, he could argue the rule and possibly be allowed to run LH twice as long as she isn't bumping someone else out.
Shit...I'm really having a hard time with this...and my judgment of Abrams desire to try this has nothing to do with handicapping...it's just crazy!!
Imriledup
10-15-2009, 09:01 PM
Didn't harness horses used to race 2 and sometimes 3 races in one day? If a harness horse can run 3 times in one day, why can't a T bred race twice in 2 days?
Pell Mell
10-15-2009, 09:21 PM
Didn't harness horses used to race 2 and sometimes 3 races in one day? If a harness horse can run 3 times in one day, why can't a T bred race twice in 2 days?
Because if you knew anything about harness racing you would know that harness racing is to thoroughbred racing, what dancing is to running.;)
bisket
10-15-2009, 11:38 PM
i have no problem with a horse runnning two days in a row, but usually the sprint would be the first race and the route the second of the two. i just don't get this. usually the sprint would be the blowout like a work the day before, and the route the race the horse would more likely win or finish better. maybe its one or the other
eastie
10-15-2009, 11:48 PM
I bet on a horse who won the nightcap at Northhampton and the second leg of the double the next day at Suffolk about 20 years ago....Bombs Away bob might remember his name. If it can be done with a bottom claimer, it could be done with a nice filly like that.
mostpost
10-16-2009, 12:38 AM
In 1936 Rushaway won the Illinois Derby at Aurora Downs west of Chicago.
After the race he was put in a van and vanned overnight to Latonia Downs, a distance of 335 miles. That afternoon, the day after winning the Illinois Derby, he won the Latonia Derby. The Illinois Derby was 1-1/8 miles. The Latonia Derby was 1-1/4 miles. Different era.
Robert Fischer
10-16-2009, 02:02 AM
Let me put this in clearer light: LH, a with the pace type in routes, will be close early in the route race on Friday; then less than 24 hours later, she'll really have to crank it, SIGNIFICANTLY, as she chases some fast horses sprinting. It's not like the race will fall in her lap. She'll have to run and it'll GUT her. She's can't beat males of that caliber sprinting.
How exactly does this work? What other 'athlete' in world trains like this?
So,
1) run 2 days in a row
2) change in distance
3) change in surface
3) change is running style
wtf?
A sure recipe for success. :rolleyes:
this time the ornery cyclist "gets it"
humans to thoroughbreds is jn fact Apples to Apples as someone contested earlier in this thred, - at least if we strictly adhere to the context.
there is no way to get around it, "specificity" is an important principle involved with training humans, thoroughbreds etc...
Java Gold@TFT
10-16-2009, 04:13 AM
Entry Procedures
Entries for all Breeders’ Cup Championships races will close at 10:00 a.m. (PST),
Tuesday, November 3, 2009. At the time of entry, a maximum of fourteen horses
will be accepted for entry in each fourteen horse race based on the order of
preference in the rankings established at pre-entry. At the time of entry, a maximum
of twelve horses will be accepted for entry in each twelve horse race based
on the order of preference in the rankings established at pre-entry. A horse will
be permitted to enter two Breeders’ Cup Championships races under theConditions/Shipping
following conditions: (i) the horse is eligible for both races; (ii) the races will
be contested on different days; (iii) the pre-entry and entry fees are paid for
both races; and (iv) neither race is oversubscribed. A horse may not doubleenter
Breeders’ Cup Championships races if the effect of such double entry
is to exclude another horse from competing. Pre-entry and entry fees will not
be refunded for the race in which the owner of the double-entered horse elects
not to compete. Scratch time for all Championships races to be contested on both
Championship Friday and Championship Saturday will be 7:00 a.m. (PST), Friday,
November 6, 2009.
Any horse can double enter if one race is on Friday and the other is on Saturday. There is no mention of actually running.
FenceBored
10-16-2009, 08:00 AM
I was catching up on the podcasts of Steve Byk's show and caught the interview he had with Barry Abrams on Tuesday afternoon in hour 2.
Archive page for October 13.
http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=608&year=2009&month=10&day=13&Itemid=35
(http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=608&year=2009&month=10&day=13&Itemid=35)
Direct link to MP3.
http://thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/101309b.mp3
The interview starts about 22:30 and runs till about 32:00, but the most straightforward declaration of his thinking comes at 23:40
Abrams: ... If I'm allowed to do it I might do it. In other words, if I run on Friday and Lethal Heat gets in trouble or she's blocked and nowhere to run and she never really had a chance to show her full potential, so just basically like she had a workout the day before the race. So, if I can run the next day down the hill I'm going to do it. But, if she runs hard and she wins, or, you know, runs really hard, I'm not going to do it just to hurt her. I'm going to do it cause that could be the best thing for her and the business.
It sounds like the Ladies Classic is the focus and Turf Sprint is just a backup plan.
The Turf Sprint last year drew the full 14 while the Ladies Classic drew 8. So, if Zenyatta goes in the Ladies Classic (keeping its numbers down), it might come down to how many others pre-enter the Turf Sprint.
Well fer cryin' out loud :bang: ...I never thought about that:bang: and I guess none of us in the thread did either;) ...no doubt Abrams must know the rules...so everything we've posted about this has been for nothin'...she ain't gonna race in the two anyway...per the BC rules...and to that, I say...whew:faint: thank goodness.
But...I'm gonna say this anyway (again)...those that have been sorta in favor of this by mentioning quick turn around times...have any of those turn around times been within 24 hours...nope...so they mean nothing in this case (which we know now is not gonna be the case anyway)...
gm10...you used Wesley Ward's horse, Cannball for your example...trouble is...he didn't win the second race he ran in...4 days later...you even said "he should have won"
And, the fact they wheel back horse often in the UK is quite different than doing it here...in England, most often, the horses don't really get rolling until the last few furlongs...so, IMO, that doesn't count much in this discussion.
Again...IF this were to happen, and thankfully it can't...15 hours, folks...15 hours!!!!!
But he SHOULD have won. If he had had the rail trip instead of the winner, he would have. I think the race earlier in the week had a positive effect on him. He ran better in the second race.
I honestly don't think this is all that bad. Of course the horse will need to recover a bit longer afterwards, but an athlete who is 100% ready can perform two days in a row.
FenceBored
10-16-2009, 05:09 PM
Plus she's hip 116 in the Fasig Tipton Nov. Mixed Sale on Tuesday November 10.
GaryG
10-16-2009, 05:39 PM
I don't follow CA racing anymore but Barry Abrams used to run his horses so often that I thought he would find something for them to do in the evening as well. I remember him running a mare 5 times during the 17-day Fpx meet/
joanied
10-17-2009, 05:31 PM
I really didn't know much about Abrams and his training methods...and to tell the truth...not sure I like the man...as far as his training goes anyway.
And now we see she'll be offered at the F-T mixed sale...hmmmmm...no wonder Abrams said in his interview this would increase her value...yep...the bottom line :ThmbDown: is always more important than anything...I think I'll be paying attention to that sale and see who she goes to...hope she finds an outstanding home.
WinterTriangle
10-17-2009, 11:25 PM
Well now it all makes sense.
Cardus
10-18-2009, 12:32 PM
To the Abrams naysayers: I have it on very, very good word that Abrams is a genius.
joanied
10-18-2009, 02:34 PM
To the Abrams naysayers: I have it on very, very good word that Abrams is a genius.
Coulda fooled me:D
nijinski
10-18-2009, 03:04 PM
Another publicity move .
Stevie Belmont
10-18-2009, 05:15 PM
Golden Man
He is still running in the bottom level claimers at Belmont
Dutrow ran a horse on consecutive days at Del Park a few years ago. His name escapes me but I believe they were both stakes. This is a dumb idea.
FenceBored
10-28-2009, 11:14 AM
Turf Sprint is oversubscribed, so they're not going to be able to enter in both the LC and the Turf Sprint.
joanied
10-28-2009, 03:59 PM
Turf Sprint is oversubscribed, so they're not going to be able to enter in both the LC and the Turf Sprint.
Good:ThmbUp: I think she'll run great in the Distaff:)
classhandicapper
10-28-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm sort of with TFM on this.
I'm not sure what impact running races in back to back days will have, but the change of surface and distance sure raises my eyebrows. You would think the horse has to be prepared differently.
Maybe someone else can comment on this other point.
I was a huge harness fan a few decades ago, but pay no attention at all now. In those days virtually all the horses ran once a week. Some of the major stakes had 2-3 heats in a single day on the same card with hours of each other!
Do they still do that?
If so, why isn't there an equal uproar about harness horses racing so often or coming back so quickly.
classhandicapper
10-28-2009, 05:18 PM
Didn't harness horses used to race 2 and sometimes 3 races in one day? If a harness horse can run 3 times in one day, why can't a T bred race twice in 2 days?
Wow, I just noticed you beat me to the same question. ;)
joanied
10-29-2009, 01:10 PM
About the Harness horses racing...IMO, you can't compare them to the TB's...I don't know much about them, but I wouldn't think the Harness horses are exerted as much as the TB in a race.
And those heats of days gone by...are just that...gone by!! What they did 100 years ago has no bearing on today...again, my opinion.
Also, just because a horse might be able to come back and race a second time 15 hours after the first time...doesn't make it the right thing to do.
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