View Full Version : Bruno DeJulio on the Pro Ride at Santa Anita
rwwupl
10-12-2009, 01:02 PM
Dedicated to the Survival Of The Horseplayer
http://www.racingwithbruno.com/
Excerpt:
The injuries have caught the attention of Ron Charles. Ron doesn't hide his head in the sand or behind fatality figures to judge his surface, he is concerned.
In my experience watching horses and the track itself perform during the morning workouts suggests that this track is jekyll and Hyde. This track is more like a firm turf course in the morning and an off, yielding or soft, in the afternoon. the sun and heat has a huge impact on the viscosity and firmness of the dirt and polymers. Thus, we have a track that breaks away or it is looser in the afternoon.
A soft or yielding turf course is handled by a special type of horse. A horse that quickens on a dime doesn't handle this conveyor belt type of track. Speed has not done well as our friend Brad Free has so eloquently discussed in the Thursday DRF, but you can't also come from far back. In other words, you can't have too much to do, and you need to be close up turning for home. I know it doesn't help, but trust me neither does looking at running style.
What are we to do here in California? We have a track at Del Mar that is handled like a carnival and goes inside out and slow and fast quicker on a matter of race to race, Santa Anita being is affected by hot and cold temperatures, and Hollywood Park by realtors with an itchy trigger finger.
The Santa Anita Pro-Ride surface is currently going through some issues, and with the Breeders Cup around the corner, it is under the microscope. "People are training scared around here,'' said one owner-clocker-handicapper-bloodstock agent, "Sadler is thinking of sending the best horses over to Hollywood Park'', he added. Barry Abrams was in a non-talkative mood in the press box on Wednesday morning,''what am I going to do? Where am I going to go?" he said. "We go to Hollywood and the horses all got sore.'' He added. I asked another owner how his horses came out of the races and works and he simply cringed and kept walking. Some workout observers or clockers seem to bury their heads in the sand and simply spin it. "'Grazen bowed because he can't go that far'', said one observer. the same guy called the Del Mar track perfect after 11 horses had broke down and had to be humanely destroyed. Perfect for whom? I guess if you hit the best bet in the 6th it's great, well, I nearly swept the card on Sunday, but it doesn't mean I am happy with the way the horses travel over it.
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andymays
10-12-2009, 01:49 PM
Great piece by Bruno. :ThmbUp:
We need more people to tell the truth about the situation!
Not trying to say what or what is not the truth "on the ground" in Arcadia, as I am not there.
It would help make his case, however, if he got the on-track stuff right.
Gayego came from far back on Sunday.
Zenyatta came from far back on Saturday.
Viscount came from far back Sunday.
James Prior came from far back Sunday.
Who that was "far back" and was supposed to come running, didn't?
46zilzal
10-12-2009, 02:19 PM
Not trying to say what or what is not the truth "on the ground" in Arcadia, as I am not there.
It would help make his case, however, if he got the on-track stuff right.
Gayego came from far back on Sunday.
Zenyatta came from far back on Saturday.
Viscount came from far back Sunday.
James Prior came from far back Sunday.
Who that was "far back" and was supposed to come running, didn't?
You could do any retrograde evaluation and promote the same deficiencies no matter your point of view
andymays
10-12-2009, 02:20 PM
Not trying to say what or what is not the truth "on the ground" in Arcadia, as I am not there.
It would help make his case, however, if he got the on-track stuff right.
Gayego came from far back on Sunday.
Zenyatta came from far back on Saturday.
Viscount came from far back Sunday.
James Prior came from far back Sunday.
Who that was "far back" and was supposed to come running, didn't?
His observations were made on October 8th. The problem with synthetic is that it can easily change from hour to hour, day to day, and week to week. I'm sure they are still tweaking the maintenance routine and probably adjusted after the breakdowns.
Show Me the Wire
10-12-2009, 02:33 PM
When do the most injuries occur, the morning training hours or the afternoon? Per Bruno the track in the morning plays like firm turf, which in theory should be good. Horses should be able to navigate a firm turf course safely.
The afternoon is another problem. I believe the heat would make the track loose and more likely to break away. What happens when the track is loose? Is the entire surface uneven? If it is that certainly would lead to many missteps resulting in broken legs, bowing, etc. Does the looseness open holes or gaps? If it does that is another major problem? Is it just slippery from the looseness?
It seems some study of the afternoon track surface would yield some answers to the question of how looseness makes the track surface react to running horses.
Valuist
10-12-2009, 02:37 PM
The breeders really have to hate the synthetic tracks. For decades, brilliance and speed were the desired qualities that distinguished American racing. Now we have surfaces that punish not only early speed but deep closers. The name of the game is grind it out in what has become racing's equivalent of socialism.
Show Me the Wire
10-12-2009, 03:07 PM
The breeder's share a huge part of the problem. The breeder's are responsible for the demise of soundness. The industry sacrificed soundness to increase speed.
lamboguy
10-12-2009, 03:18 PM
how come these guys don't tell you how bad the synthetic surface is in OBS, Ocala. what are they immune to the truth? how much money was lost on those horses this year? how many breakdowns once they started training on "conventional surface"?
one thing i can promise is that NYRA will never go to a rubber surface, and JESS Jackson won't run any of his horses on the stuff either.
InsideThePylons-MW
10-12-2009, 06:08 PM
The track is horrendous.
I have a horse who raced this weekend that hates the track.
He's booked on a plane to go back east tomorrow.
Purses are bigger....competition is spread out amongst numerous tracks therefore races are easier.....it's a no brainer
Valuist
10-12-2009, 07:20 PM
The breeder's share a huge part of the problem. The breeder's are responsible for the demise of soundness. The industry sacrificed soundness to increase speed.
True although isn't the proliferation of drugs also responsible? I guess that would split the blame between the breeders, trainers and vets. And to an extent, owners.
fmolf
10-12-2009, 07:26 PM
The track is horrendous.
I have a horse who raced this weekend that hates the track.
He's booked on a plane to go back east tomorrow.
Purses are bigger....competition is spread out amongst numerous tracks therefore races are easier.....it's a no brainer
I think california racing is doomed if they do not return to a dirt surface soon.Owners will be reluctant to run their horses over it ....some native californians may leave the game,especially with purses dwindling!Handle is down it seems the bettors are speaking!Yes poly is handicappable with a little work and studying.why bother when good quality dirt and turf racing can be found elsewhere!
andymays
10-12-2009, 07:30 PM
I think california racing is doomed if they do not return to a dirt surface soon.Owners will be reluctant to run their horses over it ....some native californians may leave the game,especially with purses dwindling!Handle is down it seems the bettors are speaking!Yes poly is handicappable with a little work and studying.why bother when good quality dirt and turf racing can be found elsewhere!
I was just told by someone who would know that dirt is a done deal after the Breeders' Cup. I won't believe it till I see it. I can't wait to spend the weekend at Santa Anita again. Haven't been since the junk was put in!
Mike_412
10-12-2009, 07:39 PM
I was just told by someone who would know that dirt is a done deal after the Breeders' Cup. I won't believe it till I see it. I can't wait to spend the weekend at Santa Anita again. Haven't been since the junk was put in!
I hope it's true Andy as that rumor has picked up an incredible amount of steam this last month. While I've read it on a couple of different message boards, a good friend of mine that is involved out there has told me the same thing.
Personally, I'll believe it when I see a pace figure greater than 60 lol.
bisket
10-12-2009, 07:41 PM
need to be close up turning for home. this is why i like rich better after saturday's race :ThmbUp:
andymays
10-12-2009, 07:57 PM
I hope it's true Andy as that rumor has picked up an incredible amount of steam this last month. While I've read it on a couple of different message boards, a good friend of mine that is involved out there has told me the same thing.
Personally, I'll believe it when I see a pace figure greater than 60 lol.
This has been a long and hard battle for me. I've been fighting this crap for two years and I hope it pays off. You never know in California though. There are a handfull of popular handicappers (on radio shows) that promoted this crap until the bitter end along with some Racing Officials and Executives. They will be on my s**t list forever!
George Sands
10-12-2009, 08:16 PM
The problem with synthetic is that it can easily change from hour to hour, day to day, and week to week.
So can Bruno. Do you remember his old feelings on this subject?
Bobzilla
10-12-2009, 08:18 PM
The breeders really have to hate the synthetic tracks. For decades, brilliance and speed were the desired qualities that distinguished American racing. Now we have surfaces that punish not only early speed but deep closers. The name of the game is grind it out in what has become racing's equivalent of socialism.
There is no doubt that the trend in recent decades has been to breed towards speed. The suppliers are obviously going to provide the buyers what they want, horses bred for brilliance that will offer a better chance for a quick turn on investment. That said, it's ironic that I continue to sense that the breeders are a major force behind the synthetic movement. My best guess, and that's all it is, a guess, is that they are forecasting ahead to what the demand side of the market might be years down the road. Who will be the buyers with the deepest pockets? What kind of racing will they be buying horses for and for what types of surfaces? With the probability of purses rising in overseas competition, as well as the possibility of a relative decline in North American purses, it's not hard to see where they might be planning a gradual shift towards breeding for stamina. The breeders may be hoping that racing on synthetics in America might help to facilitate this gradual shift. I don't know if this is really what's happening, but it is my gutt feel that this could be part of what's pushed this movement along if not the primary reason itself.
It will be interesting to see if these rumors are true in regard to SA reverting back to dirt. It will also be interesting to see if there is strong resistance from inside the industry, particularly from the Lexington region.
InsideThePylons-MW
10-12-2009, 08:20 PM
I was just told by someone who would know that dirt is a done deal after the Breeders' Cup. I won't believe it till I see it. I can't wait to spend the weekend at Santa Anita again. Haven't been since the junk was put in!
When you tell me who is officially paying for it, I might start to believe it.
andymays
10-12-2009, 08:26 PM
When you tell me who is officially paying for it, I might start to believe it.
I believe it's a million for a new dirt surface. You have to remember that a lot of these owners spend a million plus for one horse. They want dirt back!
Check out the "California: CTT board holds emergency meeting!" thread. Look at the Trainers on the list who want changes made!
miesque
10-12-2009, 08:27 PM
I find it pretty hard to believe that a bankrupt entity like Magna who on Wednesday is going to ask the Court to set a new auction date for Santa Anita in February is going to be making ANY capital improvements any time in the near future.
Bruddah
10-12-2009, 08:33 PM
When you tell me who is officially paying for it, I might start to believe it.
While the officials of Racing and Politics act like the funds come from them, it's the everday citizen and the bettors at the track taking it in the shorts again. Can you say "smile and bend over." :rolleyes:
InsideThePylons-MW
10-12-2009, 08:50 PM
I believe it's a million for a new dirt surface.
Much more if done the right way.
Bochall
10-12-2009, 11:35 PM
one thing i can promise is that NYRA will never go to a rubber surface, and JESS Jackson won't run any of his horses on the stuff either.[/QUOTE] Lets hope so...90% of my play is New York and I simply wont know what to do. I love the Bel to Sar to Bel dynamic that fools so many people every year. Horses will run well at the Bel spring meet and falter at the Spa, then regain their form when back at their best track. Also love the hot Spa trainers who go cold at the Bel fall meet, and vice versa. Rice got cold and Levine got hot.
The breeder's share a huge part of the problem. The breeder's are responsible for the demise of soundness. The industry sacrificed soundness to increase speed.
Early speed dominates on the dirt. And early speed is especially useful for younger horses. So, with 3YO's getting the bulk of the attention (and purse money), the breeders simply responded to the marketplace. They'd be fools to do otherwise.
Fingal
10-13-2009, 11:27 AM
I was just told by someone who would know that dirt is a done deal after the Breeders' Cup. I won't believe it till I see it. I can't wait to spend the weekend at Santa Anita again. Haven't been since the junk was put in!
Dam I sure hope so. This season I've made something like 4 bets on Oak Tree, & not surprisingly they've all been turf races. And I still go every weekend, except it's to spend time up in FrontRunners with some friends & have a nice Lunch while betting the DIRT at Belmont & GRASS at Keeneland.
This Crud has resulted in some of the worst losing streaks I've ever known in all my years, & it's not from being stubborn & not trying to adapt.
Show Me the Wire
10-13-2009, 11:34 AM
Early speed dominates on the dirt. And early speed is especially useful for younger horses. So, with 3YO's getting the bulk of the attention (and purse money), the breeders simply responded to the marketplace. They'd be fools to do otherwise.
Thanks for seconding and clarifying my statement. The industry (read industry as the entire industry of racing) catered to speed in favor of stamina and it is a huge problem now.
I understand why the breeders acted they way the did, but short-term profit motives does not always lead to the preferred lomg-range results.
andymays
10-13-2009, 02:26 PM
Q& A With Steve Davidowitz – Synthetic Tracks
http://blog.trackmaster.com/?p=1283
Excerpt:
Steve Davidowitz: We should all remember that synthetic track manufacturers said these artificial surfaces would require almost “no maintenance,” that they would be “free from the effects of rain or bad weather” and be “bias free.”
What a joke.
The simple fact is that they are more sensitive to track maintenance than any other track known to man. The people who put them in play are still experimenting with their approaches to keep these tracks from falling apart or becoming hopeless mush. These tracks react radically to rain, humidity and temperature shifts as well as how much use they get.
I understand why the breeders acted they way the did, but short-term profit motives does not always lead to the preferred lomg-range results.
Agreed.
bisket
10-13-2009, 07:08 PM
There is no doubt that the trend in recent decades has been to breed towards speed. The suppliers are obviously going to provide the buyers what they want, horses bred for brilliance that will offer a better chance for a quick turn on investment. That said, it's ironic that I continue to sense that the breeders are a major force behind the synthetic movement. My best guess, and that's all it is, a guess, is that they are forecasting ahead to what the demand side of the market might be years down the road. Who will be the buyers with the deepest pockets? What kind of racing will they be buying horses for and for what types of surfaces? With the probability of purses rising in overseas competition, as well as the possibility of a relative decline in North American purses, it's not hard to see where they might be planning a gradual shift towards breeding for stamina. The breeders may be hoping that racing on synthetics in America might help to facilitate this gradual shift. I don't know if this is really what's happening, but it is my gutt feel that this could be part of what's pushed this movement along if not the primary reason itself.
It will be interesting to see if these rumors are true in regard to SA reverting back to dirt. It will also be interesting to see if there is strong resistance from inside the industry, particularly from the Lexington region.
this is exactly what's behind the poly track in california. the fact of the matter is american breeders only have one market for all the speed they have in their barns, and that market is on the decline!!
WinterTriangle
11-14-2009, 01:21 AM
The industry sacrificed soundness to increase speed.
And every other post on racing forums is about beaten lengths and speed figures.
Giving the fans what they want.
chickenhead
11-14-2009, 01:45 AM
And every other post on racing forums is about beaten lengths and speed figures.
Giving the fans what they want.
Breeders want precocious youngsters, thats where the money is. Speed figures, what fans want, and precocious youngsters have nothing to do with one another.
WinterTriangle
11-14-2009, 01:55 AM
Breeders want precocious youngsters, thats where the money is.
Just because, huh?
chickenhead
11-14-2009, 02:01 AM
Just because, huh?
No, because of Andy Beyer. And beaten lengths. And people talking about Andy Beyer. And beaten lengths. On message boards. Every other post.
Shit -- I guess you were right.
And to think this whole time I thought it was just an irrational pyramid scheme, played by people with more money than sense, for the most part.
juanepstein
11-14-2009, 02:12 AM
does anyone know how niall ocallahan,carl nafzger,donnie grego or tom drury are doing with their proride training SKylight?
http://www.skylighttrainingcenter.com/
has anyone read any complaints about the proride from the australian racing industry? i believe at this moment they are fixing the geelong course with proride after the thorotrack has failed. about 90% of the proride tracks in australia are used for training only. 99% of racing in australia is turf.
maybe there are just a bunch of idiots working on the tracks in so. cal. maybe race tracks should go back to dirt and turf and have a dirt and synthetic course for training.
Show Me the Wire
11-14-2009, 12:03 PM
And every other post on racing forums is about beaten lengths and speed figures.
Giving the fans what they want.
Sure and the other ones are about the problem of retiring the stars of racing at such a young age. The fans want to see horses retire after the two -year old or three-year-old season. NOT!
miesque
11-14-2009, 12:33 PM
maybe there are just a bunch of idiots working on the tracks in so. cal. maybe race tracks should go back to dirt and turf and have a dirt and synthetic course for training.
This comment reminded me of the remarks two friends of mine had who were sitting at Clockers Corner and watching track maintenance after morning training BC week, they stated that it was evident by the actions and expressions of those working/supervising that they had no idea what they were doing and basically trying different things to get the result they were looking for aka constantly monkeying with the surface. Now before anyone jumps on me, I am not trying to impugn the Santa Anita track maintenance crew, I am pointing out that their activities did not relay a sense of confidence to those watching that they fully understood how to get the track surface (aka the Pro-Ride) to the state they wanted it to be. Now before anyone jumps all over that comment as yet another reason why synthetics need to go, I can tell you that I have heard even worse remarks at different points in time regarding surface work on Penn National's main track and that is a dirt track.
I really don't know what the answer is for Santa Anita since it is subject to dramatic weather changes throughout the year and it was definitely not all rosy when it was a dirt track either.
andymays
11-14-2009, 12:41 PM
Nobody knows how to work the stuff properly. They've been experimenting for years now.
Last year when the Pro Ride was new they had a real bad rash of breakdowns in the mornings. Bruno told me it was because the surface was freezing up (it gets pretty cold there in the winter at night). When the sun comes up over there he said the shadow from the grandstand caused some parts of the track to stay frozen longer than others and when the horses hit that spot it was dangerous. Expect more changes to the surface when it gets cold if they don't replace it.
The dirt surface had a base that was how many decades old? It's mostly about the age of the base when it comes to dirt.
Just stepping back and looking at what synthetics have done to the Derby picture and now the HOY thing I think it's a shame. I don't see how the current situation benefits anyone.
Train on it. Have it in areas that get a lot of rain. Other than that get it the hell away from me! ;)
fmolf
11-14-2009, 01:14 PM
Nobody knows how to work the stuff properly. They've been experimenting for years now.
Last year when the Pro Ride was new they had a real bad rash of breakdowns in the mornings. Bruno told me it was because the surface was freezing up (it gets pretty cold there in the winter at night). When the sun comes up over there he said the shadow from the grandstand caused some parts of the track to stay frozen longer than others and when the horses hit that spot it was dangerous. Expect more changes to the surface when it gets cold if they don't replace it.
The dirt surface had a base that was how many decades old? It's mostly about the age of the base when it comes to dirt.
Just stepping back and looking at what synthetics have done to the Derby picture and now the HOY thing I think it's a shame. I don't see how the current situation benefits anyone.
Train on it. Have it in areas that get a lot of rain. Other than that get it the hell away from me! ;)
I don't ever want it here in new york!Thank god california racing officials are a lot smarter than the ones here at nyra! :rolleyes:
And every other post on racing forums is about beaten lengths and speed figures.
Giving the fans what they want.
I was never asked. I doubt any fans were ever asked about anything.
They breed to get a quick return and you do that with 2 year olds and 3 year olds. The fans do not enter into it. Never have in anything related to racing.
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