View Full Version : Afghanistan - One Tough Beat
bigmack
10-08-2009, 06:55 PM
I have a friend who builds my computers that is Afghan. He worked alongside his Dad as a "freedom fighter" to help oust the Soviets. (Cue Charlie Wilson)
He's said since day one of our involvement there, "Good luck, that's one tough place". It sure is...
__________________________________________
American soldiers serving in Afghanistan are depressed and deeply disillusioned, according to the chaplains of two US battalions that have spent nine months on the front line in the war against the Taleban.
...The men are frustrated by the lack of obvious purpose or progress. “The soldiers’ biggest question is: what can we do to make this war stop. Catch one person? Assault one objective? Soldiers want definite answers, other than to stop the Taleban, because that almost seems impossible. It’s hard to catch someone you can’t see,”
...“The many soldiers who come to see us have a sense of futility and anger about being here. They are really in a state of depression and despair and just want to get back to their families,”
...“They feel they are risking their lives for progress that’s hard to discern,”
“We’re lost — that’s how I feel. I’m not exactly sure why we’re here,”
Asked if the mission was worthwhile, he replied: “If I knew exactly what the mission was, probably so, but I don’t.”
...“Everyone you meet is just down, and you meet them everywhere — in the weight room, dining facility, getting mail,” said Captain Rico. Even “hard men” were coming to their tent chapel and breaking down.
...The soldiers complain that rules of engagement designed to minimise civilian casualties mean that they fight with one arm tied behind their backs. “They’re a joke,” said one. “You get shot at but can do nothing about it. You have to see the person with the weapon. It’s not enough to know which house the shooting’s coming from.”The soldiers joke that their Isaf arm badges stand not for International Security Assistance Force but “I Suck At Fighting” or “I Support Afghan Farmers”.
...The chaplains said that many soldiers had lost their desire to help Afghanistan. “All they want to do is make it home alive and go back to their wives and children and visit the families who have lost husbands and fathers over here. It comes down to just surviving,”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6865359.ece
We have no business there.
The moron N Chief has no clue what to do and is too stupid to listen to those who do.
Bring them home now.
Greyfox
10-09-2009, 01:14 AM
War is not a card game or something children play at.
Do it right or don't do it at all.
Pave it or Park it.
This mess should have been cleared out and cleaned up years ago.
Pace Cap'n
10-09-2009, 07:05 AM
...“They feel they are risking their lives for progress that’s hard to discern,”
“We’re lost — that’s how I feel. I’m not exactly sure why we’re here,”
Asked if the mission was worthwhile, he replied: “If I knew exactly what the mission was, probably so, but I don’t.”
I was in a war like that, it seems so long ago, but I still have the feeling I got hosed.
Greyfox
11-18-2009, 12:31 PM
The Washington Post is reporting this morning that an Afghanistan Minister has taken $ 30 million in bribes and has awarded a contract to a Chinese Mining company.
Let's see now, the Taliban were supporting al Qaeda so they were ousted.
They were replaced by the Northern Alliance who also are turning out to be as crooked as hell.
I think both of these regimes have one interest and that's control of the opium. Effectively the troops are sitting on one side of a civil war between Taliban and Northern Alliance with both being rotten to the core.
The supposed recent democratic election was rigged with ballot stuffing.
Thinking that the place can ever be converted to a democracy that resembles any Government in the west is simply a pipe dream.
So the place has been rid of al Qaeda. It hasn't been rid of rats. And they're on both sides of the civil war.
-- The Washington Post -- Afghan Minister Accused Of Taking $30 Million Bribe: "The Afghan minister of mines accepted a roughly $30 million bribe (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/17/AR2009111704198.html?hpid=topnews) to award the country's largest development project to a Chinese mining firm, according to a U.S. official who is familiar with military intelligence reports." In an interview, Mohammad Ibrahim Adel "denied repeatedly that he has received any bribes or illicit payments during his three-year-old tenure as minister."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/11/afghanistan_pakistan_ksm_suici.html
Robert Goren
11-18-2009, 01:09 PM
When you got one general saying one thing and another general saying something else, it maybe time to cut our losses.
Show Me the Wire
11-18-2009, 01:10 PM
Of the two wars, this is the true "civil" war and our clown in-chief thinks this is the important war we should sacrifice American lives fighting. What a clueless foreign educated community organizer we have for President.
We are providing the funding to use against our own troops over there.
We can put 200 thousand in there and unless we set up a complete military dictatorship that will not change.
You have to move supplies/people around and when you do you pay to do it plus the stuff that is sent into the country.
Well, who do you think you are giving that money and stuff to???
It doesn't take much thought to understand why Bush/Cheney let the thing sit there for 6 years or so.
There is nothing to be done other than pull out or ramp up the waste.
Nice job , real nice.
Morons.
Dave Schwartz
11-18-2009, 02:25 PM
Dog,
There you go, making sense again.
Dave
Greyfox
11-18-2009, 03:27 PM
There's more news besides corruption from Afghanistan today.
Nov 18, 2009
Afghan violence at highest level since invasion
Aid agency seeks to measure price paid for instability
Peter Goodspeed, National Post Published: Wednesday, November 18, 2009
Violence in Afghanistan has reached its highest level since the U.S.-led invasion eight years ago.
On the eve of Hamid Karzai's second inauguration as president tomorrow, statistics compiled by NATO forces indicate insurgent attacks have soared by nearly 60%. .....
According to the report, 43% of respondents said their property had been destroyed; 76% had been forced to leave their homes; and 17% are thinking of fleeing Afghanistan.
"A whole generation has grown up never having experienced peace and many Afghans are struggling to cope with the psychological, economic, social and physical ramifications of the conflicts, past and present," the report says.
Nearly half of the population lives below the poverty line.
More than 250,000 remain displaced inside the country, while another three million refugees are still in Pakistan and Iran.
Oxfam spoke to more than 700 Afghans in 14 provinces.
When asked what the most harmful period of conflict in Afghanistan was 38% named the Communist period and the Soviet Union's occupation, 22% named the civil war that followed the Soviets' withdrawal and 33% named the Taliban.
Only 3% thought the current conflict was the most harmful.
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Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2234634#ixzz0XFEy3nNb (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2234634#ixzz0XFEy3nNb)
Things seem to be going south on Obama's watch.
Greyfox
11-18-2009, 04:22 PM
Things seem to be going south on Obama's watch.
:ThmbUp: Exactly.
He can't shit and he won't get off the pot.
The place is a mess.
The 4 options presented to Obama all involve increases in troop levels.
This probably abhors him.
However, withdrawal puts Pakistan ,which has nuclear weapons, in a major problem of vulnerability.
A withdrawal means that the Taliban are strengthened. It would be just a matter of weeks until they took back what they were ousted from and then started more terrorism in Pakistan.
But staying has its problems too. The Karzai government is just going through the motions of trying to ready themselves for troop withdrawal. Why should they get shot when Americans and NATO can stand in for them?
He is trapped between a Messianic Pacifism value system of turning the other cheek and the reality that Taliban's really are dangerous people with value systems that think nothing of life on earth. To date, the Taliban are only concerned with Afghanistan. It is the al Qeada among them that are trying for Muslim supremity and Church law around the world.
Undoubtedly Obama is praying to some God for a way out of this mess.
But he has to shit or get off the pot.
Half heartedly supporting the troops is not on.
Either do it right or get out.
riskman
11-18-2009, 04:48 PM
.
__________________________________________
“All they want to do is make it home alive and go back to their wives and children and visit the families who have lost husbands and fathers over here. It comes down to just surviving,”
[/I]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6865359.ece
This is exactly how many felt that served in Vietnam the last years of the war. You know how Vietnam ended--hope it does not come to that.
Undoubtedly Obama is praying to some God for a way out of this mess.
Would that be talking to himself?
bigmack
11-18-2009, 05:28 PM
This is exactly how many felt that served in Vietnam the last years of the war. You know how Vietnam ended--hope it does not come to that.
We went in to get OBL and we know how that's going. Now we're there to stymie the rise of Taliban. Set-up a base, rarely let soldiers drive around. Get thousands of drones in. Surveil, see bad guys, bomb. Surveil, see bad guys, bomb.
Why do we need to be driving around running into roadside bombs? Drones & guys in trailers. Any movement out of place, bomb drone, bomb.
riskman
11-18-2009, 06:04 PM
We went in to get OBL and we know how that's going. Now we're there to stymie the rise of Taliban. Set-up a base, rarely let soldiers drive around. Get thousands of drones in. Surveil, see bad guys, bomb. Surveil, see bad guys, bomb.
Why do we need to be driving around running into roadside bombs? Drones & guys in trailers. Any movement out of place, bomb drone, bomb.
Yes, the use of drones is an effective method of targeting the bad guys but with it comes the so called "collateral damage" which has caused controversy in the media and international community. Some have gone as far to the use of drones is targeted assassination. This issue will not go away, and is just another thorn in our side.
delayjf
11-18-2009, 07:07 PM
A withdrawal means that the Taliban are strengthened. It would be just a matter of weeks until they took back what they were ousted from and then started more terrorism in Pakistan.
If possible I'd like to fake a withdraw, draw the taliban out of the mountains - once they start their campaign against the Gov in power, move in, cut off their retreat back into Pakistan and then annilate them.
Rookies
11-18-2009, 07:33 PM
About 6 weeks ago, I started a thread on this topic.
Afghanistan is like the proverbial dead men walking war zone. A superbly trained fighting militia honed by their defeat of the Red Army, skilled in quick strike terror tactics, able to hide out in the most basic, but remote camps and MOST importantly- supported by their local pop against the (North) American foreign invader is a flat out winner.
They have the luxury of the most important commodity- time. Plus, the central government is one of the most corrupt and incomptent on the face of the earth. The people don't give a shite about democracy- they believe in feudalism.
The whole thing is a recipe for constant American & allied death without resolve and with ZERO strategic purpose.
There should be immediate deployment home and covert spies and assassins should replace them to kill off the bad guys.
Obama has stated he is not in favor of victory there.
That says it all.
PaceAdvantage
11-19-2009, 02:50 AM
Always remember, Afghanistan was THE WAR that Obama and the left constantly stated was the RIGHT WAR...THE JUST WAR...the WAR THAT WAS WORTH FIGHTING.
This is the war, essentially, that Obama WANTS...and yet, he can't make any decisions?
This alone qualifies him for one term status...as ineffectual a CIC as this country has ever seen...and he's only been at the job for ten months!! :lol: or rather...:(
Sara has ideas for the war......you remember her, the one not qualified? :lol:
If she stands on her tippy toes, can she see Kabul?
ElKabong
11-19-2009, 10:54 PM
It's 0bama's war NOW. How's it working out for him?
Greyfox
11-19-2009, 11:03 PM
It's 0bama's war NOW. How's it working out for him?
Two more troops killed on Wednesday. The dithering goes on.
boxcar
11-19-2009, 11:04 PM
If she stands on her tippy toes, can she see Kabul?
And if you stand on yours, will you be able to see past BO's rear end?
Boxcar
delayjf
11-20-2009, 10:05 AM
If she stands on her tippy toes, can she see Kabul?
Don't think so, but I think you can see Kabul from Mt. Obama - located in fantasyland, our 57th state.
BUT- BUT, can she see THIS Dasht-e-Margo????
Fox covering this , how's about CNBC??? :lol:
As to who has the war now-- it's the same cast of characters.
You have to admit that the reason behind it is the global energy game.
That's all it is now.
Nothing wrong with that, just the b.s. about women's rights' and all that crap blows chunks.
We were going to drop the hammer on good ol Omar in june 2001 , the 9/11 stuff just gave a spur to that. They suddenly were not the good ol taliban , but the new meanie with eyes toward China and Russia and all that pipe ,etc.
you really think we didn't have some idea of the goings on there prior 9/11?
you really think we thought women were already in paradise in AFG?
:lol: :lol:
Get out of your MSM fantasyland and try to find some part of the real world , it makes so much more sense.
Even for bama and his crew , it doesn't take months to figure out the troop part.......................... :bang:
Greyfox
11-20-2009, 01:13 PM
In this morning's Washington Post columnist David Ignatius is talking about a document that is becoming more and more popular with Army Special Forces.
It's entitled "One Tribe at a Time" and was written by Major Jim Gant.
It can be downloaded at:
http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/2009/10/one-tribe-at-a-time-4-the-full-document-at-last/
or viewed directly at:
http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/wp-content/themes/stevenpressfield/one_tribe_at_a_time.pdf
Gant suggests:
1. Afghanistan has never had strong central government.
2. Only a bottom up decentralized approach will work in the region.
3. The tribal system must be supported.
Ignatius argues that the current "top down" system has left the tribes vulnerable to the Taliban, enabling this latter group to rebuild their networks.
McChrystal has a number of ad hoc ideas going but is still looking for game changing opportunities to stop the Taliban advance.
Ignatius goes on to say:
"Obama's slow motion process of decision carries its own costs."
Show Me the Wire
11-20-2009, 01:22 PM
If she stands on her tippy toes, can she see Kabul?
That is why Obama went to China, so he could look out at Afghanistan and claim this experience will justify not listening to his hand picked generals.
In this morning's Washington Post columnist David Ignatius is talking about a document that is becoming more and more popular with Army Special Forces.
It's entitled "One Tribe at a Time" and was written by Major Jim Gant.
It can be downloaded at:
http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/2009/10/one-tribe-at-a-time-4-the-full-document-at-last/
or viewed directly at:
http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/wp-content/themes/stevenpressfield/one_tribe_at_a_time.pdf
Gant suggests:
1. Afghanistan has never had strong central government.
2. Only a bottom up decentralized approach will work in the region.
3. The tribal system must be supported.
Ignatius argues that the current "top down" system has left the tribes vulnerable to the Taliban, enabling this latter group to rebuild their networks.
McChrystal has a number of ad hoc ideas going but is still looking for game changing opportunities to stop the Taliban advance.
Ignatius goes on to say:
"Obama's slow motion process of decision carries its own costs."
they are playing the wrong game.
You want control not a bottom up- you want a central control or at least the important regions to US to have a central control.
The Taliban advance will not be stopped , it will be co-opted.
That's the choice they are looking at at the bama level - how to do that or at least take a swing at that.
That's the off ramp. You have to realize that other players want in there with their own set of proxy dudes. You will not have a stable AFG in our lifetime.
Not unless we and China-india and Russia make nice and cut it up.
Another scenerio is that the China-Russia group along with Pak take over.
This was what the whole kissinger/nixon/carter/brezinzski policy from the 70s and 80s was trying to prevent China and russia linked aims, it really hasnt changed much since then.
We have kind of shot our legs out from under us with the China mercantile policy since it looks to me like now Russia needs China and neither of them need us as mcuh in the long run.
That's the correct prism to view this through imo.
Things make much sense from that pov.
bama went to china to try to pry them a little bit further apart from russia and the energy/MILITARY deals they are doing everywhere WE think we have vitals.
He/we will be bowing and scraping much much more in the coming years.
THis is the fallout of placing our monetary system and economy at the edge.
Nothing would surprise me in regards to this "dance" getting ugly.
You may see interest rate hikes one day in the face of massive un-employment. We are on a razor edge in this thing.
It gives all the others out there another reason to band together and say , look at them , they are now killing our assests and exporting inflation INTO our economy to prop up their own.
Not a good place so far.
We tried to help them. The prefer to live like animals.
Let them. They are.
Pull out now. Those that die, die. No sweat of my ass.
The whole frigging country and everyone in it is not worth one soldier's life.
Let Allah take care of them.
sorry, not so simple. They have help in not accepting our help .
Viewing everything from this side only warps you.
We need to protect OUR interests, is staying protecting ours ????
I still say no.
Feed them to whomever we need to feed them to, get the energy stuff worked out before hand with the other players.
I think a deal can be struck with Russia-India-China-Pak. Tough deal but one could be made that gets us out of there.
Show Me the Wire
11-20-2009, 01:50 PM
I am for duplicity. Tell them we are leaving and then invade with full force after the Taliban is out in the open and will be forced to fight on battlefields.
When they hide withdraw and repeat.
Greyfox
04-07-2010, 01:01 PM
I've revived an old thread here because of some of the bizarre comments coming out of Afghanistan's leader President Hamid Karzai.
In the past week he has said comments to the effect:
1. the "West" were responsible for fraud at the last election.
2. the U.S. led - Nato surge won't go ahead if the tribal leaders don't want it to.
3. if the pressure from the west becomes much worse, he may even join the Taliban.
4. this morning he is denying that he said he would join the Taliban.
***************************************
My opinion is that Karzai is a corrupt an individual as you could have leading the government and serving as "a point man on the ground" for the west.
His brother is supposedly some drug king pin. Last year he was going to set up a standard where it was not okay for a woman to say "no" to her husband,
re: sex.
He has no intent of ever setting up a regime that will rule without corruption.
With Karzai as a "bedfellow" this war is becoming harder and harder to succeed in. The whole place is corrupt and NATO and America are simply being used and bled. The male Afghanistan population has absolutely no sincerity when they say they want the west to stay, but they want the west's money.
46zilzal
04-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Ah too bad the oil pipeline won`t make the bugger richer than he already is.
I would believe Hammy over Bammy any day of the week.
Greyfox
04-07-2010, 04:25 PM
In an article penned on Monday for Slate Magazine journalist Fred Kaplan wonders:
Has Karzai Gone Crazy?
Kaplan states:
"However, Karzai's latest remarks raise a more alarming question still: Is it possible for Western governments to work by, with, and through an Afghan president who denounces them at every turn, even to the point of characterizing them as imperialist invaders, thus affirming the main talking point of the Taliban and al-Qaida?
The issue here is not Karzai's peevishness or ingratitude. The issue is whether, under the circumstances, a counterinsurgency campaign can work—whether we're wasting lives and money."
More at link: http://www.slate.com/id/2249536/
Greyfox
04-07-2010, 04:35 PM
Peter Galbraith, former U.N. top official in Afghanistan, today stated that he has concerns about Karzai's mental stability. He said:
"He's prone to tirades. He can be very emotional, act impulsively. In fact, some of the palace insiders say that he has a certain fondness for some of Afghanistan's most profitable exports."
More at link: http://www.examiner.com/x-15870-Populist-Examiner~y2010m4d7-Is-Hamid-Karzai-a-heroin-addict
"He's prone to tirades. He can be very emotional, act impulsively. In fact, some of the palace insiders say that he has a certain fondness for some of Afghanistan's most profitable exports."
This could be Hammy or Bammy.
CryingForTheHorses
04-07-2010, 08:13 PM
The Washington Post is reporting this morning that an Afghanistan Minister has taken $ 30 million in bribes and has awarded a contract to a Chinese Mining company.
Let's see now, the Taliban were supporting al Qaeda so they were ousted.
They were replaced by the Northern Alliance who also are turning out to be as crooked as hell.
I think both of these regimes have one interest and that's control of the opium. Effectively the troops are sitting on one side of a civil war between Taliban and Northern Alliance with both being rotten to the core.
The supposed recent democratic election was rigged with ballot stuffing.
Thinking that the place can ever be converted to a democracy that resembles any Government in the west is simply a pipe dream.
So the place has been rid of al Qaeda. It hasn't been rid of rats. And they're on both sides of the civil war.
-- The Washington Post -- Afghan Minister Accused Of Taking $30 Million Bribe: "The Afghan minister of mines accepted a roughly $30 million bribe (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/17/AR2009111704198.html?hpid=topnews) to award the country's largest development project to a Chinese mining firm, according to a U.S. official who is familiar with military intelligence reports." In an interview, Mohammad Ibrahim Adel "denied repeatedly that he has received any bribes or illicit payments during his three-year-old tenure as minister."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/11/afghanistan_pakistan_ksm_suici.html
So why not get the guys out of there and let them fight their own battles as they have done for centries..Why is the USA there,,Even Bin Ladin has stated all violence would stop as soon as all occupying forces let the arab lands..Who cares if they want to live like that,Who in thei right mind besides the radicials would want to blow themselves up?..Im sure war is a nightmare for familes and Ill bet its the scariest thing a man or woman has to do being on the front lines.I say pull out the troops and slam the door on them until they can be housebroken!!
We have their co-ordinates - there is no reason to have troops there.
They will never be a civilized nation, why bother with them?
Just nuke them every couple of years and be done with them.
Show Me the Wire
04-07-2010, 09:51 PM
....Even Bin Ladin has stated all violence would stop as soon as all occupying forces let the arab lands.....
History has proven otherwise.
bigmack
04-07-2010, 09:56 PM
Even Bin Ladin has stated all violence would stop as soon as all occupying forces let the arab lands
Would you take the word of an owner you knew was a louse and said, I'll pay you down the road?
REEEally now, exactly which history in the last 100 years or so would that have been????
Would you take the word of an owner you knew was a louse and said, I'll pay you down the road?
NAH, i would much rather run wild throughout his county and kill off anyone that maybe thought to be an associate and then be sure by that action he would reform and come to be an upstanding citizen.
:D
one thing about you neo-conned dudes one has to admire is the bald faced bullshit you will support , it seems forever.
the u.s. started a war on drugs and war on poverty a war on everything it seems and AFTER we failed on all those fronts HERE we figured well so what, we can start a war on terror that must have a war on drugs and a war on poverty won BEFORE the wot can be won but but.............
yeah, no problem there , height of rational thought.
absolute pinnacle there , where's that magic pixie dust , I wants some.
and you cite libs as social engineers that think they can run a Utopian paradise if only they could get the rest to join in the chanting!! :D :D :D :lol:
bigmack
04-08-2010, 11:41 PM
NAH, i would much rather run wild throughout his county and kill off anyone that maybe thought to be an associate and then be sure by that action he would reform and come to be an upstanding citizen.
Hangin' yer hat on the work of McMutry smacks of your posts. I took that class 'bout 30 years ago with Prine.
http://popup.lala.com/popup/576742232428682559
Sixty Acres
James McMurtry
http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569453758921784
JP
Spanish Pipedream
drugs , hell the only time that crop went down was while the taliban was in charge.
we use the drug trade to prop up banks and our buddies there.
You don't think if we wanted to we could "de-drug" the place , sure we could.
However the hearts and minds you need won't be happy about that lack of revenue.
On the other hand if we can't do that, being a simple exercise, then what would make one think the larger more complicated goals can be achieved?
Doesn't add up -- never did.
Hangin' yer hat on the work of McMutry smacks of your posts. I took that class 'bout 30 years ago with Prine.
http://popup.lala.com/popup/576742232428682559
Sixty Acres
James McMurtry
http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569453758921784
JP
Spanish Pipedream
whatever class you took didn't stick. your typical empty blather.
trust this, your musical styling leave as much or more to want.
maybe you could hang yours on pep shop boys or mc hammer or something else of suitable depth.
bigmack
04-09-2010, 12:07 AM
whatever class you took didn't stick. your typical empty blather.
trust this, your musical styling leave as much or more to want.
Keep on keepin' on with the delusional same old, same old.
I'll keep an eye out for ya on an intervention program that might take.
Meanwhile, good luck thinkin' the world doesn't get what you've 'figured out'. :sleeping:
Here's a thought: Same as it always was...
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