Sea the Stars, yes no???

[46zilzal]

Lots of push to see the best run against the best.

This one would coast to Horse of the Year on both continents with a wins here.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnists/holt/2009/10/07/sea-the-stars-breed-apart-115875-21728935/

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Sea the Stars has NO CHANCE of winning HOY over here with just one win in the Breeders Cup. That is crazy talk and not worth mentioning.

[46zilzal]

A few years back the Eclipse for Turf Horse of the Year occurred when a horse did not have a SINGLE U.S. start.

To deny that claim IF this animal beat the best would be, as many things are in the US nowadays, a fixed sham.

Reminds me of the baseball teams claiming to be WORLD'S Champs and then getting wiped out by Japan and the Dominican Republic.

Don't consider, nor let the rest of the world even compete, and yet claim to be WORLD'S CHAMPS. What baloney...and call your day the WORLD'S CHAMPIONSHIPS....what crap

[tucker6]

For once, Zil, I agree with you. If STS won the Classic, he'd have a shot at HOY on one race here in the USA. I like RA, but he would be the new sexy choice, and given that he is male, would pick up the anti-female vote. I don't rule it out like I automatically do SB or MTB. Let's remember that politics plays a part in the vote. If you want more Euros to compete over here, wouldn't giving the HOY to one of their greats be a good start to build the goodwill?? I can see it based on that thought alone.


I hope not though ...

[Quagmire]

Lots of push to see the best run against the best.

This one would coast to Horse of the Year on both continents with a wins here.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnists/holt/2009/10/07/sea-the-stars-breed-apart-115875-21728935/


Might as well give him the Sovereign Award as well.

[46zilzal]

Might as well give him the Sovereign Award as well.
To win that one he WOULD have to have started at least three times in Canada...from the Jockey Club of Canada site:

"To be eligible to receive a Sovereign Award in these divisional categories a horse must race in Canada at least two times as a two year old and three times for all horses 3 year old and up, prior to the date of the distribution of ballots during the year in which the Award is earned. This rule applies to both Canadian-bred and foreign-bred horses."

[RobinFromIreland]

A few years back the Eclipse for Turf Horse of the Year occurred when a horse did not have a SINGLE U.S. start.

Who was that?

[andymays]

COSTS NO FACTOR IN SEA THE STARS PLAN

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/09/10/07/manual_131930.html

Excerpt:

Connections of Sea The Stars have rubbished reports the brilliant colt won't run in the Breeders' Cup Classic because of concerns over insurance costs.
It had been claimed the rising value of the brilliant Arc winner meant he would not head to Santa Anita because no-one would underwrite the risk of travelling the horse to America and back.

However John Clarke, racing manager to the owners, the Tsui family, told sportinglife.com: "John Oxx will decide if Sea The Stars runs in the Breeders' Cup Classic after seeing how the horse is and how he comes out of the Arc. The insurance costs aren't a factor.

"I can say with 100 per cent certainty that one person - and one person alone - will decide if Sea The Stars runs at Santa Anita and that is John."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sea would be star of the show, says Cup supremo

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/sea-the-stars-breeders-cup-sea-would-be-star-of-the-show-says-cup-supremo/639721/top/

Excerpt:

SEA THE STARS would add 10,000 to the crowd and $10 million to betting turnover if he were to end his career in the Breeders' Cup Classic next month, the organisation's chief executive Greg Avioli predicted on Tuesday.
Avioli expressed his view as he prepared toreturn to the US following a week in Paris spent chasing up likely candidates for the two-day meeting at Santa Anita on November 6 and 7.

[Quagmire]

Kalanisi

[46zilzal]

Who was that?
Singspiel

http://www.tjcis.com/eqlprod/prod16.html

[Zenyatta To Crush]

A few years back the Eclipse for Turf Horse of the Year occurred when a horse did not have a SINGLE U.S. start.

To deny that claim IF this animal beat the best would be, as many things are in the US nowadays, a fixed sham.

Reminds me of the baseball teams claiming to be WORLD'S Champs and then getting wiped out by Japan and the Dominican Republic.

Don't consider, nor let the rest of the world even compete, and yet claim to be WORLD'S CHAMPS. What baloney...and call your day the WORLD'S CHAMPIONSHIPS....what crap
I would say that maybe in a different year when there wasn't a horse who won so many big races like Rachel, this could be plausible, but there's just no way he gets voted ahead of her with just one U.S. Start. Now if he wins the Classic by 20 lengths, maybe I'll have to reconsider.

Even though Sea The Stars has won bigger races than Rachel, and its supposed to be the "World's Championships", voters will still give Rachel the nod considering what she has done in the U.S. Maybe they should base the Eclipse Awards on the best U.S. horse so we don't have to compare our races to the ones overseas.

[Steve R]

Sea the Stars has NO CHANCE of winning HOY over here with just one win in the Breeders Cup. That is crazy talk and not worth mentioning.
If they can give HOY to an American horse largely based on one race outside the US, they can certainly give it to a European horse based on one race IN the US. Had Curlin not won the DWC in 2008 he probably would have lost HOY to Zenyatta. Outside of the Dubai race, Curlin's 2008 campaign was hardly of HOY quality. An American campaign of 5-3-1-0 with Beyer Figures of 110-104-112-111-106 clearly is not a memorable HOY effort.

If Sea The Stars wins the BC Classic he will have defeated the best from the US and Europe including (possibly) four other classic winners (Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, Fame and Glory and Mastercraftsman). Rachel Alexandra would be the only possible competition for the award, although realistically the colt towers over her and any other horse in the world at this time. A Classic win by Sea The Stars followed by denial of HOY would seriously compromise the credibility of the entire Eclipse Award concept.

[46zilzal]

A Classic win by Sea The Stars followed by denial of HOY would seriously compromise the credibility of the entire Eclipse Award concept.
Of course but then there is that double standard: the rah ! rah! press and the reality of what has been accomplished

[11cashcall]

I would say that maybe in a different year when there wasn't a horse who won so many big races like Rachel, this could be plausible, but there's just no way he gets voted ahead of her with just one U.S. Start. Now if he wins the Classic by 20 lengths, maybe I'll have to reconsider.

Even though Sea The Stars has won bigger races than Rachel, and its supposed to be the "World's Championships", voters will still give Rachel the nod considering what she has done in the U.S. Maybe they should base the Eclipse Awards on the best U.S. horse so we don't have to compare our races to the ones overseas.


On STS coming i really think so,OXX was quoted after the ARC as saying "STS
has a bomb proof temperment".Plus their's the extra week this yr. from last yrs ARC/BC to 2009.

Disagree with voters giving it to RA based on what she's done in NA & the feilds STS beat/and Triple score, a first historically! Coupled with the fact that should he run & win the Classic while RA is a no show since Sept. on racing's biggest day.Cannot see the auto vote their.

[11cashcall]

Had Curlin not won the DWC in 2008 he probably would have lost HOY to Zenyatta. Outside of the Dubai race, Curlin's 2008 campaign was hardly of HOY quality. An American campaign of 5-3-1-0 with Beyer Figures of 110-104-112-111-106 clearly is not a memorable HOY effort.

If Sea The Stars wins the BC Classic he will have defeated the best from the US and Europe including (possibly) four other classic winners (Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, Fame and Glory and Mastercraftsman). Rachel Alexandra would be the only possible competition for the award, although realistically the colt towers over her and any other horse in the world at this time. A Classic win by Sea The Stars followed by denial of HOY would seriously compromise the credibility of the entire Eclipse Award concept.


Sharp post!

[Tom]

To win that one he WOULD have to have started at least three times in Canada...from the Jockey Club of Canada site:

"To be eligible to receive a Sovereign Award in these divisional categories a horse must race in Canada at least two times as a two year old and three times for all horses 3 year old and up, prior to the date of the distribution of ballots during the year in which the Award is earned. This rule applies to both Canadian-bred and foreign-bred horses."

So basically, your award is for the Woodbine best horses. What the hell kind of an award limits winners to basically 1 frigging track??? :lol:

[46zilzal]

So basically, your award is for the Woodbine best horses. What the hell kind of an award limits winners to basically 1 frigging track??? :lol:
Dancing All Star: 2 y/o filly Terry Jordan trained for a Vancouver fellow.

Traveling Victor HORSE of the Year in Canada based at Hastings
George Royal Canadian Horse of the Year a BC bred.

King to the Moon, Imperial Choice, Bolulight, True Metropolitan owned by BC connections (twice older horse of the year) all came west

[Tom]

OK, limited tow two tracks.
Impressive.

We have HOY at Finger Lakes too.

[tholl]

Singspiel

http://www.tjcis.com/eqlprod/prod16.html


Did'nt win in America, but did win in North America -- the Canadian International and was second in the Breeders' Cup at Woodbine that year.

[TommyCh]

Don't understand why people care so much about the Eclipse Awards. I understand the marketing value for breeding purposes, which might also be argued as specious. But besides water cooler conversation, aren't horse of the year and the other awards little more than a popularity contest and a chance for the beautiful people to jangle their jewelry on a red carpet?

[FenceBored]

Of course but then there is that double standard: the rah ! rah! press and the reality of what has been accomplished

By rah! rah! press do you mean this? Man o'War in the 1920s. Phar Lap in the '30s. Secretariat in the '70s. Dancing Brave in the '80s. The debate over horse racing's greatest ever flat runner has always been as contested as a Breeders' Cup — and it just got hotter. Sea the Stars, an Irish-trained colt that darted to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in Paris on Oct. 4, might just be the greatest of them all.
-- http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1927869,00.html
Or do you mean this? Sea The Stars (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/sea-the-stars-ire/2006?source=BHonline) secured his place among racing’s immortals when he powered his way to a thrilling two length victory over Youmzain in the Qatar Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/race/FR/LCP/2009/10/4/6/qatar-prix-de-larc-de-triomphe-gr-1) (Fr-I) (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1gCT5OYoEY) Oct. 4.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52818/sea-the-stars-adds-arc-de-triomphe-to-galaxy
(http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52818/sea-the-stars-adds-arc-de-triomphe-to-galaxy) Or maybe this?
In a performance that will be talked about as long as people argue over horses, Sea the Stars entered his name among the all-time greats with a two-length victory in Europe's championship race.
-- http://www.drf.com/news/article/107824.html
And that's just the American press.

[46zilzal]

When HORSE people use comparatives, I am in agreement.

When "pretty horsey" fans, or sports writers cover, or rather HYPE everything, since they are rarely expert on ANYTHING, one has to logically look elsewhere.

[FenceBored]

When HORSE people use comparatives, I am in agreement.

When "pretty horsey" fans, or sports writers cover, or rather HYPE everything, since they are rarely expert on ANYTHING, one has to logically look elsewhere.

So, you're saying that Sea the Stars is unworthy of the accolades he's receiving?

[redshift1]

Sea the Stars has NO CHANCE of winning HOY over here with just one win in the Breeders Cup. That is crazy talk and not worth mentioning.

If STS enters and wins the Classic it would be the biggest story in racing since Secretariat he would probably be considered one of the top five horses in history far overshadowing RA achievements. No knock on RA as she may end up the greatest American mare.

[andymays]

If STS enters and wins the Classic it would be the biggest story in racing since Secretariat he would probably be considered one of the top five horses in history far overshadowing RA achievements. No knock on RA as she may end up the greatest American mare.


In my opinion they would be insane to race Sea the Stars over the Pro Ride in it's current condition. An article recently said he was worth close to 100 million.

[FenceBored]

I'm going to up the ante here. I don't think Sea the Stars would have to WIN a BC race to win an Eclipse. All he would need to do is not embarass himself. A solid performance and a good placing would be enough to earn HOY, and maybe 3 yo colt. A win and both awards are definite. Even if he ran in the Classic, I wonder if there would be a movement to give him the Turf Male award as well.

[tucker6]

I'm going to up the ante here. I don't think Sea the Stars would have to WIN a BC race to win an Eclipse. All he would need to do is not embarass himself. A solid performance and a good placing would be enough to earn HOY, and maybe 3 yo colt. A win and both awards are definite. Even if he ran in the Classic, I wonder if there would be a movement to give him the Turf Male award as well.
Is this a serious post? A good showing but no win will not get HOY or 3 yo colt awards. JMHO. If he wins, he might get both. Close call. If he doesn't win on turf here, he shouldn't get the award, which I believe is meant for American turf racing. Correct?

[RobinFromIreland]

I'm Irish and I wouldn't like if Sea The Stars won.

Isn't the beauty of the Eclipse HOY Award that there are no rules for who you should vote for. It's just a vote for whatever horse you feel defined the US racing year.

To me, that's only one horse: Rachel Alexandra. For another, they may have different criteria.

[FenceBored]

Is this a serious post? A good showing but no win will not get HOY or 3 yo colt awards. JMHO. If he wins, he might get both. Close call. If he doesn't win on turf here, he shouldn't get the award, which I believe is meant for American turf racing. Correct?

Yes, I'm serious. As was pointed out earlier Singspiel won Turf Male after losing the BC Turf, with just one other race in NA. Clearly, he won based on his entire international record. Given the strength of STS's European accomplishments I'm sure that there are a good chunk of voters wanting to give him an Eclipse already. As long as he doesn't finish up the track they'll feel justified in overlooking the defeat as part of his total package. Throw in the "not votin' for no filly" crowd and you'll have a majority. As to the Turf award, if they're including his total record to count toward other awards why couldn't voters include it in considering the Turf one?

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course but then there is that double standard: the rah ! rah! press and the reality of what has been accomplishedDude, your own country won't give an award to a outsider until he races in Canada three times.

Now you want to give the American HOY Eclipse Award to an outsider who races here once (presumably) and wins (again, presumably).

How much sense does that make?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm going to up the ante here. I don't think Sea the Stars would have to WIN a BC race to win an Eclipse. All he would need to do is not embarass himself. A solid performance and a good placing would be enough to earn HOY, and maybe 3 yo colt. A win and both awards are definite. Even if he ran in the Classic, I wonder if there would be a movement to give him the Turf Male award as well.Surely you jest.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sea the Stars is a fantastic colt, no doubt.

However, you all are missing one vital point. This year's BC Classic will be contested on FAKE DIRT.

Sea the Stars can win the BC Classic by 20, and I would still be willing to wager that Rachel Alexandra wins HOY.

UNLESS there is such utter corruption in the voting process, and these blue bloods somehow hijack the vote in a desperate attempt to make this FAKE DIRT more appealing, I don't see Rachel losing HOY even if STS comes here and wins the BC Classic.

And the year Singspiel won the Eclipse despite not winning in his only race here...what was he up against in terms of competition? Diplomatic Jet and Fastness?

BTW, I find the following just WILD...I did a search in Google news using the terms "Singspiel", "horse" and "Eclipse" and was returned a link to an article in the Pittsburge Post-Gazette. The following link not only brings up the image of the ACTUAL ARITCLE from the ACTUAL PAPER, but it also HIGHLIGHTS the search terms ON THE IMAGE of the ACTUAL ARTICLE!!! Amazing stuff that Google:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-94NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KW8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6728,5183709&dq=singspiel+horse+eclipse&hl=en

[redshift1]

"Sea the Stars can win the BC Classic by 20, and I would still be willing to wager that Rachel Alexandra wins HOY."


At even money I would take that bet in a heartbeat.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Here's the American Horse of the Year list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Horse_of_the_Year

Show me where any horse who raced one time in the US has won HOY honors. The last time a predominantly Euro based horse won the award was All Along and she raced 4 times in North America in a 2 month span beating males in the most prestigious turf races in the country at the time.

There have been individual Eclipse winners off of one race like Miesque, Ouija Board or Arazi but no American Horse of the Year honors.

So Sea The Stars would have to break two barriers that have never been conquered - winning HOY off one race and the fact that in 25 years of the BC no Arc winner has ever won a BC race (Turf or Classic). If he does race in the Classic I hope he does well. At the same time I'm not holding my breath waiting. I give him a better chance than Zenyatta being in that starting gate but not a whole lot more.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Maybe just a tad over the top of overstatement?

The idiot who gets his name on top of the BC program actualy said the following:

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/sea-the-stars-breeders-cup-sea-would-be-star-of-the-show-says-cup-supremo/639721/top/

Avioli said: "If Sea TheStars were to run in the Classic, he would add a tremendous amount of excitement to the day, and I seriously believe there would be an additional 10,000 fans and an extra $10m of wagering handle.

An extra 10,000 fans and $10M in handle? what kind of drugs are you taking to make a statment like that in front of someone who may actually report what you said? I like the horse and hope he does show up but to make a statement that one horse will have that kind of effect on attendence and handle is cause to look up the local mental hospitals for a little rest.

[Gorgeous George]

Sea The Stars is currently the best horse in the world and would destroy anything america put in front of him but i really hope Oxx doesnt send him over. There is no need, he is already a great in everyones eyes. On what Rachel has done this year she deserves HOY and a great in her own right aswell. Americans should be proud of Rachel just as much as we are proud of our own hero STS.

[Judge Gallivan]

Maybe just a tad over the top of overstatement?

The idiot who gets his name on top of the BC program actualy said the following:

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/sea-the-stars-breeders-cup-sea-would-be-star-of-the-show-says-cup-supremo/639721/top/



An extra 10,000 fans and $10M in handle? what kind of drugs are you taking to make a statment like that in front of someone who may actually report what you said? I like the horse and hope he does show up but to make a statement that one horse will have that kind of effect on attendence and handle is cause to look up the local mental hospitals for a little rest.


He would bring quite a few extra people from the UK and Ireland.

Maybe not quite 10,000 but some significant number still.

[FenceBored]

Sea the Stars is a fantastic colt, no doubt.

However, you all are missing one vital point. This year's BC Classic will be contested on FAKE DIRT.

Sea the Stars can win the BC Classic by 20, and I would still be willing to wager that Rachel Alexandra wins HOY.

UNLESS there is such utter corruption in the voting process, and these blue bloods somehow hijack the vote in a desperate attempt to make this FAKE DIRT more appealing, I don't see Rachel losing HOY even if STS comes here and wins the BC Classic.


Corruption? Who needs corruption?
The Eclipse Awards are voted on and presented by the NTRA, Daily Racing Form (DRF) and National Turf Writers Association (NTWA). The votes are tabulated and certified by Ernst & Young LLP. -- http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2008/votes.html
So you have three main entities, two press and one track. In a column (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/american-graded-stakes-standings-brought-to-you-by-keeneland-breeding-concern-for-eclipse-awards/) in August Ray Paulick decribes the old "six-member Eclipse Award outstanding breeder committee" which was comprised of an editor from Bloodhorse, and editor from the Thoroughbred Times, two people from DRF and 2 people representing NTRA. If the 242 voters (the 2008 Eclipse number) had that same proportion of 2/3 turf writers 1/3 NTRA/track officials it seems that the "rah! rah! press" dominates the voting. (Sorry zizal)

Voting for STS over Rachel would enable someone to take a slap at Jess Jackson (Hi, Ms. Novak) and create the ultimate feel good story AT THE SAME TIME.
"The European Champion, the first winner of the 2000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, and the Arc in a single season, took America by storm and":

Win
"proved dominant on yet another continent";
or Loses gamely
"strove valiantly, but was undone by the rigors of his hard campaign and long travel."
Honestly, the stuff just writes itself, might even throw in a reference to his "shaggy winter coat in the warm California sun."

Rachel deserves HOY, but there is one horse who can rationally overmatch her in the voting and that is Sea the Stars with a strong BC performance.

[tucker6]

Corruption? Who needs corruption?The Eclipse Awards are voted on and presented by the NTRA, Daily Racing Form (DRF) and National Turf Writers Association (NTWA). The votes are tabulated and certified by Ernst & Young LLP. -- http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2008/votes.html






So you have three main entities, two press and one track. In a column (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/american-graded-stakes-standings-brought-to-you-by-keeneland-breeding-concern-for-eclipse-awards/) in August Ray Paulick decribes the old "six-member Eclipse Award outstanding breeder committee" which was comprised of an editor from Bloodhorse, and editor from the Thoroughbred Times, two people from DRF and 2 people representing NTRA. If the 242 voters (the 2008 Eclipse number) had that same proportion of 2/3 turf writers 1/3 NTRA/track officials it seems that the "rah! rah! press" dominates the voting. (Sorry zizal)










Voting for STS over Rachel would enable someone to take a slap at Jess Jackson (Hi, Ms. Novak) and create the ultimate feel good story AT THE SAME TIME."The European Champion, the first winner of the 2000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, and the Arc in a single season, took America by storm and":










Win"proved dominant on yet another continent";






or Loses gamely"strove valiantly, but was undone by the rigors of his hard campaign and long travel."






Honestly, the stuff just writes itself, might even throw in a reference to his "shaggy winter coat in the warm California sun."




Rachel deserves HOY, but there is one horse who can rationally overmatch her in the voting and that is Sea the Stars with a strong BC performance.
While I do not agree that STS can lose the BC and win HOY, I have to admit that he is the only bramble patch at Rachel's feet in her quest for HOY. He has done everything asked of him, and if he wins the BC, he will have made a stronger case than any other horse in NA besides Rachel. He will get votes regardless of what we say or think.

It makes political and economic sense to consider STS.

... and this comes from an avowed Rachel supporter since the Oaks.

[11cashcall]

"Sea the Stars can win the BC Classic by 20, and I would still be willing to wager that Rachel Alexandra wins HOY."


At even money I would take that bet in a heartbeat.


Sign me up!!!

[WinterTriangle]

I can't imagine that STS would come over here for this race, would come over here and run on plastic, or would care about the award anyway (given the cons versus the pros of running on plastic to be named in it). I guess I'm baffled why anyone would think he was coming here at this point. He's going to be relaxing in his barn, like Rachel is now.

the trans-atlantic shipping notwithstanding, after his season, no way do I think they would want to run him on SA pro-ride.

[11cashcall]

Dude, your own country won't give an award to a outsider until he races in Canada three times.

Now you want to give the American HOY Eclipse Award to an outsider who races here once (presumably) and wins (again, presumably).

How much sense does that make?


PA i know what your saying & am in agreement,but you have to realize that
the "Old Boyz Club" a.k.a OJC, here in T.O are still wearing 360 degree Blinkers with waist high trousers.Heck they wont even acknowledge Sunny's Halo.

[Java Gold@TFT]

PA i know what your saying & am in agreement,but you have to realize that
the "Old Boyz Club" a.k.a OJC, here in T.O are still wearing 360 degree Blinkers with waist high trousers.Heck they wont even acknowledge Sunny's Halo.
And this year they won't ackonowledge Careless Jewel even if she wins the BC Distaff.

[gm10]

I'm not really sure what "horse of the year" means.

If this is supposed to rank the global horse population of 2009, Sea The Stars will always come out first. Rachel Alexandra is great, but is she did not nearly accomplish the same as Sea The Stars. The Arc, Derby and Eclipse were just better races than the Preakness, Woodward and Haskell. Name me one horse that RA beat, who would have had a chance in any of STS's races.

And if STS were to win the Classic, I think we're looking at the biggest certainty in terms of HOY in a very long time.

Mind, I'm not saying that RA would not have had a chance agst STS. She just did not accomplish the same.

[gm10]

Nice article in Time btw

Is Sea the Stars the Best Racehorse of All Time?

Man o'War in the 1920s. Phar Lap in the '30s. Secretariat in the '70s. Dancing Brave in the '80s. The debate over horse racing's greatest ever flat runner has always been as contested as a Breeders' Cup — and it just got hotter. Sea the Stars, an Irish-trained colt that darted to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in Paris on Oct. 4, might just be the greatest of them all.

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1927869,00.html

[Cratos]

Lots of push to see the best run against the best.

This one would coast to Horse of the Year on both continents with a wins here.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnists/holt/2009/10/07/sea-the-stars-breed-apart-115875-21728935/

In my humble opinion, Sea the Stars if judged by performance and class is the best racehorse to have raced anywhere in the world in 2009.

Secondly, breeders and horsemen will probably always take a good colt/horse over a good filly/mare. This doesn’t make it fair, but life is not fair and gender bias does exist in racing; if you don’t believe it, take a look at purse structure and race conditions.

However if HOY was a popularity vote by American voters I believe that Rachel Alexandra would win HOY regardless of what Sea the Stars or Summer Bird does.

Last year the HOY voters sent Curlin to the podium with 63% of the vote casted, Zenyetta got 29%, and the popular Big Brown got a mere 5%.

Voters for the Eclipse Awards represent the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, The Daily Racing Form, and the National Turf Writers Association

[joanied]

Dude, your own country won't give an award to a outsider until he races in Canada three times.

Now you want to give the American HOY Eclipse Award to an outsider who races here once (presumably) and wins (again, presumably).

How much sense does that make?

Absolutely none:bang: ...and, may I add my own opinion about OUR Eclipse Awards...a horse from another country, even one such as Sea the Stars should not win an Eclipse off of ONE race in America!

[WinterTriangle]

In my humble opinion, Sea the Stars if judged by performance and class is the best racehorse to have raced anywhere in the world in 2009.

Yes.

But HOY is an "american" award, in essence, right?

STS gets the award as best thoroughbred in the world 2009. (Most rankings have him as that already).

Beating 11 G1 winners in a field of 19 is quite a feat.

I don't even think we can put a race together with that many G1 horses into the same field anymore, can we? :confused:

[Steve R]

Absolutely none:bang: ...and, may I add my own opinion about OUR Eclipse Awards...a horse from another country, even one such as Sea the Stars should not win an Eclipse off of ONE race in America!
I don't know. A horse is either the best to race in a country or it isn't. If you can make that determination off one race, why not?

[PaceAdvantage]

A horse is either the best to race in a country or it isn't. If you can make that determination off one race, why not?How can we make the determination off of one race when that race is on FAKE DIRT?

America is the home of DIRT RACING. That's where we look to, traditionally, for our HOY contenders...we don't look to turf runners for our leading HOY candidates...we look to the DIRT first, and then, if the dirt runners are particularly weak, we might look to the Turf runners for some HOY contenders.

This is why I say that STS could come here and win the BC Classic on FAKE DIRT, and Rachel Alexandra would still be the most deserving of Horse of the Year...without a doubt.

[Cratos]

Absolutely none:bang: ...and, may I add my own opinion about OUR Eclipse Awards...a horse from another country, even one such as Sea the Stars should not win an Eclipse off of ONE race in America!

Okay, let’s not allow foreign horses to be considered as HOY and let’s re-title the HOY award to be named the American HOY along with the European HOY and the Japanese HOY, etc.

You get the picture, this whole thing about not allowing a foreign horse to become HOY is silly. If I am correct, Sea the Stars is an American bred horse that is racing in foreign countries.

Furthermore, what would we say if one of our horses who had raced exclusively in America went to Europe and won the Arc de Triomphe and was voted European HOY?

By the way, let’s change the name of the World Championship Races (aka the Breeders’ Cup Races) to the American Championship Races.

A good horse is a good horse and it doesn’t matter if it is American bred and raced or foreign bred and raced.

[Gorgeous George]

If I am correct, Sea the Stars is an American bred horse that is racing in foreign countries.


wrong he's irish bred!!

[tucker6]

wrong he's irish bred!!
Foaled at the Irish National Stud. It is likely that STS stands there soon according to some English articles I've read. Appears the family is so attached to STS that they are unlikely to sell him.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Okay, let’s not allow foreign horses to be considered as HOY and let’s re-title the HOY award to be named the American HOY along with the European HOY and the Japanese HOY, etc.

Hmmm, go to the Eclipse Award website, The award IS called AMERICAN HORSE OF THE YEAR as well as every other championship awarded such as as American Male Turf Horse or American Three year old female. Sea The Stars wrapped up the Cartier Award months ago which is a European vote. The fact is that in the history of the AMERICAN HOY award no horse has ever won it based on one race.

[Cratos]

Hmmm, go to the Eclipse Award website, The award IS called AMERICAN HORSE OF THE YEAR as well as every other championship awarded such as as American Male Turf Horse or American Three year old female. Sea The Stars wrapped up the Cartier Award months ago which is a European vote. The fact is that in the history of the AMERICAN HOY award no horse has ever won it based on one race.

If that is true (and I don't know if it is), I will ask: Is it predetermined that if Sea the Stars would run in the BC Classic and win, he would be HOY? Again, this entire argument is silly. Does it make any sense to praise "second best" as a champion?

I doubt seriously that anyone who understood horses would have not given Man O'War or Secretariat the "best in world" crown during their reign on the racetrack.

I have been in this game long enough to see a horse like Criminal Type get the 1990 HOY and I wasn’t the least bit annoyed and if Rachel doesn’t get it this year I will not be annoyed because I have stated that she should get it and that is really what matters to me; voicing my choice.

[Steve R]

How can we make the determination off of one race when that race is on FAKE DIRT?

America is the home of DIRT RACING. That's where we look to, traditionally, for our HOY contenders...we don't look to turf runners for our leading HOY candidates...we look to the DIRT first, and then, if the dirt runners are particularly weak, we might look to the Turf runners for some HOY contenders.

This is why I say that STS could come here and win the BC Classic on FAKE DIRT, and Rachel Alexandra would still be the most deserving of Horse of the Year...without a doubt.
If Sea The Stars were to actually win the BC Classic, would you also disqualify him from the Eclipse Award for best three-year-old colt because it was only one race?

FWIW, in 1956 Italian invader Ribot was named champion older horse in both the UK and France based on just one race in each country. I have no idea if they even had the equivalent of HOY awards in those days.

Also, I understand the concerns about so-called fake dirt and fake turf when referring to AWSs. However, in my database, I have found that since 2005, 7.6% of major SWs on turf have also won on an AWS while 6.8% of major dirt SWs have done the same. This suggests there is not, as many believe, an overwhelming preference for turf horses making the transition to an AWS. I don't see any reason to downgrade turf horses running in non-grass races at the BC since it appears almost the same percentage of dirt horses successfully make the transition. In reality it depends on the individual horses, but that's true regardless of any change from prior, established racing conditions to new ones.

[Cratos]

wrong he's irish bred!!

Thanks for the correction, but it doesn’t make him any less or better of a horse

[gm10]

Hmmm, go to the Eclipse Award website, The award IS called AMERICAN HORSE OF THE YEAR as well as every other championship awarded such as as American Male Turf Horse or American Three year old female. Sea The Stars wrapped up the Cartier Award months ago which is a European vote. The fact is that in the history of the AMERICAN HOY award no horse has ever won it based on one race.

didn't Conduit win the Male Turf HOY last year?

[46zilzal]

didn't Conduit win the Male Turf HOY last year?
AGREED

The Award is simply that horse that an AMERICAN evaluating committee thinks is the best. Origin has nothing to do with it nor should it ever.

You think for an instant that if Secretariat had run, and run well in the Arc that the reciprocal would not have taken place? of course it would

[joanied]

I don't know. A horse is either the best to race in a country or it isn't. If you can make that determination off one race, why not?

There's the rub....you can't make that determination off one race!

[joanied]

And this year they won't ackonowledge Careless Jewel even if she wins the BC Distaff.

Well, here is My acknowledgment; :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
:jump:

[gm10]

If Sea The Stars were to actually win the BC Classic, would you also disqualify him from the Eclipse Award for best three-year-old colt because it was only one race?

FWIW, in 1956 Italian invader Ribot was named champion older horse in both the UK and France based on just one race in each country. I have no idea if they even had the equivalent of HOY awards in those days.

Also, I understand the concerns about so-called fake dirt and fake turf when referring to AWSs. However, in my database, I have found that since 2005, 7.6% of major SWs on turf have also won on an AWS while 6.8% of major dirt SWs have done the same. This suggests there is not, as many believe, an overwhelming preference for turf horses making the transition to an AWS. I don't see any reason to downgrade turf horses running in non-grass races at the BC since it appears almost the same percentage of dirt horses successfully make the transition. In reality it depends on the individual horses, but that's true regardless of any change from prior, established racing conditions to new ones.

I completely agree with this. I posted some stats on this before. For nearly every synthetic racetrack, the same applies: dirt horses do as well as turf horses do. It's right there in the numbers yet some people will not believe it.

You don't need to be a turf horse to do well on the polytrack. Every type of horse does well on it. This is not how it used to be at places like GG or KEE, that much is true. But this does not mean that polytrack favours turf horses, it means that it doesn't disadvantage them like the dirt did.

[DRIVEWAY]

How can we make the determination off of one race when that race is on FAKE DIRT?

America is the home of DIRT RACING. That's where we look to, traditionally, for our HOY contenders...we don't look to turf runners for our leading HOY candidates...we look to the DIRT first, and then, if the dirt runners are particularly weak, we might look to the Turf runners for some HOY contenders.

This is why I say that STS could come here and win the BC Classic on FAKE DIRT, and Rachel Alexandra would still be the most deserving of Horse of the Year...without a doubt.

Should the races on FAKE DIRT be ignored when voting for Eclipse Awards?

[joanied]

Okay, let’s not allow foreign horses to be considered as HOY and let’s re-title the HOY award to be named the American HOY along with the European HOY and the Japanese HOY, etc.

You get the picture, this whole thing about not allowing a foreign horse to become HOY is silly. If I am correct, Sea the Stars is an American bred horse that is racing in foreign countries.

Furthermore, what would we say if one of our horses who had raced exclusively in America went to Europe and won the Arc de Triomphe and was voted European HOY?

By the way, let’s change the name of the World Championship Races (aka the Breeders’ Cup Races) to the American Championship Races.

A good horse is a good horse and it doesn’t matter if it is American bred and raced or foreign bred and raced.

I think Java Gold has already posted what my reply, in essence, would be:

"Hmmm, go to the Eclipse Award website, The award IS called AMERICAN HORSE OF THE YEAR as well as every other championship awarded such as as American Male Turf Horse or American Three year old female. Sea The Stars wrapped up the Cartier Award months ago which is a European vote. The fact is that in the history of the AMERICAN HOY award no horse has ever won it based on one race."

Furthermore, Cratos...I never said a European horse couldn't win our HoY award, or any of the other American Eclipse awards...but to come here and win ONE race is not sufficient, IMO, to win one of our year end championships...
that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it:jump:

[gm10]

Should the races on FAKE DIRT be ignored when voting for Eclipse Awards?

No, on the contrary. Races on the 'fake dirt' are more contentious and harder to win for a horse: the horse needs to posses more qualities than just good early speed. Not always the case on the 'real dirt'.

[46zilzal]

Go to a venue on a championship day and beat all comers. That is what they do at the All American Futurity, the NCAA basketball championships etc etc.

[Cratos]

I think Java Gold has already posted what my reply, in essence, would be:

"Hmmm, go to the Eclipse Award website, The award IS called AMERICAN HORSE OF THE YEAR as well as every other championship awarded such as as American Male Turf Horse or American Three year old female. Sea The Stars wrapped up the Cartier Award months ago which is a European vote. The fact is that in the history of the AMERICAN HOY award no horse has ever won it based on one race."

Furthermore, Cratos...I never said a European horse couldn't win our HoY award, or any of the other American Eclipse awards...but to come here and win ONE race is not sufficient, IMO, to win one of our year end championships...
that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it:jump:

The problem that you are not admitting too is that the World Championship Races (aka the Breeders’ Cup Races) leaves your argument very porous.

There cannot be a “World Championship” if the world does not compete in it and since there is only minimum qualifying criteria required to get your horse into one of the “World Championship” races, then any entrant is not bound to have any American run race on its resume.

Again, for the final time this is a silly argument because Sea the Stars is highly unlikely to come to the BC races and the only competitor left that Rachel would have for the HOY award would be Summer Bird and he must win the BC Classic convincingly to overcome Rachel’s accumulative vote margin.

[DRIVEWAY]

http://maestro-trk.bloodhorse.com/trk/click?ref=zqoqmnmb8_1-1680x39ba6x122721&

An interesting item for Rachel Alexandra fans.

[FenceBored]

The problem that you are not admitting too is that the World Championship Races (aka the Breeders’ Cup Races) leaves your argument very porous.

There cannot be a “World Championship” if the world does not compete in it and since there is only minimum qualifying criteria required to get your horse into one of the “World Championship” races, then any entrant is not bound to have any American run race on its resume.


I think you have been reading too much Breeders' Cup, Limited promotional material. Winning a BC race doesn't obligate anyone outside of the Breeders' Cup Limited organization to recognize the horse as any sort of "World Champion." And, across the greater part of the globe, they don't. Even in the US there is not a one-to-one correspondance between BC winners and Eclipse Award recipients. See the posts in the Breeders' Cup Forum section for correlation between winning a BC race and its nearest equivalent US Eclipse Award championship for races on Day 1 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62180) and Day 2 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62181). Some races correlate better than others, with the BC Classic winner receiving the American Horse of the Year Eclipse Award only 11 of the 25 years.

Raven's Pass (USA) did not receive any Eclipse Award after his BC Classic win. Nor did he recieve the European 3 Year Old Colt Championship, or recognition in Great Britain (where he was principally campaigned) as 3 year old highweight for the 10 furlong distance, both of these honors went to New Approach (IRE). He was GB highweight 3 year old for distances between 6f 111 yards and 9f 110 yards, but that was for his races in Great Britain. Not much respect for a "World Champion," is it?

[joanied]

http://maestro-trk.bloodhorse.com/trk/click?ref=zqoqmnmb8_1-1680x39ba6x122721&

An interesting item for Rachel Alexandra fans.

Too expensive:( for me...but it sure is pretty!!

[joanied]

The problem that you are not admitting too is that the World Championship Races (aka the Breeders’ Cup Races) leaves your argument very porous.

There cannot be a “World Championship” if the world does not compete in it and since there is only minimum qualifying criteria required to get your horse into one of the “World Championship” races, then any entrant is not bound to have any American run race on its resume.

Again, for the final time this is a silly argument because Sea the Stars is highly unlikely to come to the BC races and the only competitor left that Rachel would have for the HOY award would be Summer Bird and he must win the BC Classic convincingly to overcome Rachel’s accumulative vote margin.

Fencebored replied to you, and his post is one I would agree with...
in all reality, Cratos, they began by calling the event the Breeders Cup Championships...I suspect they added 'World' because horse from anywhere in the World can compete...but, sorry you don't agree, and that is fine...but the fact remains that the ECLIPSE awards are American:ThmbUp:

[Cratos]

Fencebored replied to you, and his post is one I would agree with...
in all reality, Cratos, they began by calling the event the Breeders Cup Championships...I suspect they added 'World' because horse from anywhere in the World can compete...but, sorry you don't agree, and that is fine...but the fact remains that the ECLIPSE awards are American:ThmbUp:

Neither of you are getting it. This is not about the BC, but about the idea raised in an earlier post within this thread which said (and I am paraphrasing) if Sea the Stars come to the BC and win the BC Classic he should be HOY.

That assertion set off the firestorm about winning one race and that the HOY award is an American award.

My retorts were to show just how disorganize racing is because on one hand it is promoting it self as a world event without any embedded credentials to do so and on the other hand it is an “American” event. Also, if you think that winning the BC Classic will not weigh heavily in the voting for 2009 HOY you are smoking something and it ain’t Lucky Strikes.

For the record I was there at Hollywood Park for the inaugural BC event in 1984 and have attend every other BC event since with the exception of the one held at Lone Star. I have airline tickets to fly out to California for the 2009 BC because I want to be there to see the “stars’ come out; in particular I want to see Zenyetta because this might be her last career start.

[gm10]

Neither of you are getting it. This is not about the BC, but about the idea raised in an earlier post within this thread which said (and I am paraphrasing) if Sea the Stars come to the BC and win the BC Classic he should be HOY.

That assertion set off the firestorm about winning one race and that the HOY award is an American award.

My retorts were to show just how disorganize racing is because on one hand it is promoting it self as a world event without any embedded credentials to do so and on the other hand it is an “American” event. Also, if you think that winning the BC Classic will not weigh heavily in the voting for 2009 HOY you are smoking something and it ain’t Lucky Strikes.

For the record I was there at Hollywood Park for the inaugural BC event in 1984 and have attend every other BC event since with the exception of the one held at Lone Star. I have airline tickets to fly out to California for the 2009 BC because I want to be there to see the “stars’ come out; in particular I want to see Zenyetta because this might be her last career start.

I agree with you. The BC is not the world championships, because a real world championships would be held on a different continent every year.

On the other hand, there is no international body that can rightfully dispute the BC claim of being the world championships.

If the BC were to be demoted to be an American championship, either by itself, or by a international horse racing body, I think it is only a matter of years before the BC comes to an end. Why? Well frankly, I don't think many people would be interested in it. The American championships already exists in a way, it is the collection of a handful of big races like the Kentucky Derby, Woodward, etc. An American championships would be somewhat of a redundant event.

There is no way back for the BC, that's my opinion. And America should hold on to the BC for as long as it cans. Imagine a real world championships that is held in Europe, Asia, Australia, Dubai. How well would American horses do in those world championships? And what would happen to the value of the American racing industry if there was a yearly event that exposed the fact that American racing really only excels on a minority surface? The world is changing, folks, it will soon no longer be run by just the US and Europe. Asia and South America are growing stronger every year and want to have a say on things, and it is only a matter of time before this applies to the racing world, too.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Fencebored replied to you, and his post is one I would agree with...
in all reality, Cratos, they began by calling the event the Breeders Cup Championships...I suspect they added 'World' because horse from anywhere in the World can compete...but, sorry you don't agree, and that is fine...but the fact remains that the ECLIPSE awards are American:ThmbUp:
OK, "World Championships" so give me a list of the horses who have come to the World Champinships not trained or campaigned in Europe or North America? There is some pretty good racing in Italy, Germany, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, New Zealend, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico and some Carribean countries. How many have ever shown up for the BC "World Championships"? None that hadn't already been shipped in as 3yo's. We send horses to Hong Kong and Japan but I haven't seen one of theri runners come to the BC. Same with the Middle East - Saudi Arabia and Dubai. If it wasn't for Darley/Godolphin there wouldn't be one Middle Eastern runner in the "World Championships". They are the North American championships with just a little bit of influence from France and the British Isles.

[Humph]

Believe it or not, people actually laugh in other parts of the world when they hear the BC calling itself a World Championship - that is a self-proclaimed tag.

If we going to have a Championships then do it on the same lines as other sports , not just fill a day or two with prestigious races , see runners appear from different shores , then claim that it is a WC .

[joanied]

Java Gold replied with a good post...he brings up a good point, that the horses coming here from other countires has been limited to England and France...
the BC is what it was set up to be...a day (now two:ThmbDown: days) of races for the American horses to bide for the year end awards...the American Eclipse Awards...again, 'world' was added because we do get some European horses that come over for it...

gm10....IF the BC were to change it's policy of European horses coming here, it would still hold tremendous value and interest for the American race fans...of that I have no doubt...and the fields would be just as large because the number of Euro's entered hasn't been all that many anyway...I beleive the most Euro's we've had here for the event has been over last year & this year because of the Pro Ride.
As for the world changing, as in Asia, Middle East ect. 'running the world'...that is politics and has no business being mentioned here...IMO...I won't even address that....except to say, if connections of horse from South Africa, China ect. want to come here for the BC...we all know they are most welcome to do so.


Humph... First...personally, I could care less about your claim that folks laugh at us for calling the BC a World Championship...self proclaimed? Run it like other sports and "not just have a day or two of prestigeous races, then claim that it's a world championship"...what would you have us do...run it as series of races and best out of seven wins...like the World Series? That makes no sense to me. Oh, and speaking of the WORLD Series...how many baseball teams from other countries (besides Canada) come here to play baseball and try to get into the World Series...I don't hear anyone bitching that it's really not a world series and that an American team is proclaimed WORLD Champions!!!

And now...going back to the point of this thread, as Cratos points out...is about a horse winning the HoY off one race...I will hold to my own opinion about that...a horse should not win a championship off one huge race on BC day(s)...but...I see your point...that if Sea the Stars comes here and wins the Classic he should be in the running for HoY off his entire racing season...and he would be...and still Rachel would get it because she, IMO, has a better race record that StS's does for the year, and has accomplished what no other filly has...again, my opinion.

I really can't see any more reasons to argue over this...the BC is what it is, and Rachel has done what she did...and deserves HoY regardless of wether or not StS's comes over and wins the Classic.

PHEW:faint:

[FenceBored]

Neither of you are getting it. This is not about the BC, but about the idea raised in an earlier post within this thread which said (and I am paraphrasing) if Sea the Stars come to the BC and win the BC Classic he should be HOY.

That assertion set off the firestorm about winning one race and that the HOY award is an American award.


All true, and with you so far. Different people have different opinions on the appropriateness of awarding an American award (the Eclipse Award) to a foreign based runner solely off one race in NA, even if it is a race grandiosely called a "World Championship." Yep, that's a fact. So what?

My retorts were to show just how disorganize racing is because on one hand it is promoting it self as a world event without any embedded credentials to do so and on the other hand it is an “American” event.

We seem to all agree that racing is disorganized, that the BC races are not REALLY "World Championships" and that the BC as a whole is, indeed, an American event. Do you have a point other than that?

Oh, but that's right, this isn't about the BC it's about the Eclipse HOY award. Yet, that's an American award, and nobody but you has ever said otherwise, and an award is not an event, so how could that paragraph have been refering to the Eclipse HOY award? :bang: The Europeans have a set of combined year end awards (Cartier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartier_Racing_Award)), and each European country also has their own separate year end honors. Each South American country has its year end championship awards, as do Japan, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. There is no worldwide accepted year end award for "best in the world."


Also, if you think that winning the BC Classic will not weigh heavily in the voting for 2009 HOY you are smoking something and it ain’t Lucky Strikes.


I don't see Einstein being voted HOY after he wins the Classic. Don't forget what happened the last time a Stronach owned horse ran in the Classic on a Stronach owned track, maintained by a Stronach paid track crew. Look for the BC Classic Stakes Record to FAAaaall. :jump:

For the record I was there at Hollywood Park for the inaugural BC event in 1984 and have attend every other BC event since with the exception of the one held at Lone Star. I have airline tickets to fly out to California for the 2009 BC because I want to be there to see the “stars’ come out; in particular I want to see Zenyetta because this might be her last career start.

What da ya want, a cookie?

[joanied]

All true, and with you so far. Different people have different opinions on the appropriateness of awarding an American award (the Eclipse Award) to a foreign based runner solely off one race in NA, even if it is a race grandiosely called a "World Championship." Yep, that's a fact. So what?



We seem to all agree that racing is disorganized, that the BC races are not REALLY "World Championships" and that the BC as a whole is, indeed, an American event. Do you have a point other than that?

Oh, but that's right, this isn't about the BC it's about the Eclipse HOY award. Yet, that's an American award, and nobody but you has ever said otherwise, and an award is not an event, so how could that paragraph have been refering to the Eclipse HOY award? :bang: The Europeans have a set of combined year end awards (Cartier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartier_Racing_Award)), and each European country also has their own separate year end honors. Each South American country has its year end championship awards, as do Japan, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. There is no worldwide accepted year end award for "best in the world."



I don't see Einstein being voted HOY after he wins the Classic. Don't forget what happened the last time a Stronach owned horse ran in the Classic on a Stronach owned track, maintained by a Stronach paid track crew. Look for the BC Classic Stakes Record to FAAaaall. :jump:



What da ya want, a cookie?

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: (I was gonna say something about him being at every other BC Event...but decided not to...your reply to that is :lol: )...and the rest of your reply to Cratos is spot on, Fencebored...:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: You said it all way better than I did:)

And now...I'm outta here...great racing today, and we can't harvest because the damned ground is frozen...which is very bad...if we can't finish the sugar beet harvest...well, I won't even go there:faint: ...but today, I can watch the races and try to forget the dire straights this weather has put us farmers in.

Everyone...have a great weekend:ThmbUp:

[Cratos]

All true, and with you so far. Different people have different opinions on the appropriateness of awarding an American award (the Eclipse Award) to a foreign based runner solely off one race in NA, even if it is a race grandiosely called a "World Championship." Yep, that's a fact. So what?



We seem to all agree that racing is disorganized, that the BC races are not REALLY "World Championships" and that the BC as a whole is, indeed, an American event. Do you have a point other than that?

Oh, but that's right, this isn't about the BC it's about the Eclipse HOY award. Yet, that's an American award, and nobody but you has ever said otherwise, and an award is not an event, so how could that paragraph have been refering to the Eclipse HOY award? :bang: The Europeans have a set of combined year end awards (Cartier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartier_Racing_Award)), and each European country also has their own separate year end honors. Each South American country has its year end championship awards, as do Japan, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. There is no worldwide accepted year end award for "best in the world."



I don't see Einstein being voted HOY after he wins the Classic. Don't forget what happened the last time a Stronach owned horse ran in the Classic on a Stronach owned track, maintained by a Stronach paid track crew. Look for the BC Classic Stakes Record to FAAaaall. :jump:



What da ya want, a cookie?

I am not into "nothings" and that is the essence of your replies, but keep them coming because their added value is comical.

[Cratos]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: (I was gonna say something about him being at every other BC Event...but decided not to...your reply to that is :lol: )...and the rest of your reply to Cratos is spot on, Fencebored...:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: You said it all way better than I did:)

And now...I'm outta here...great racing today, and we can't harvest because the damned ground is frozen...which is very bad...if we can't finish the sugar beet harvest...well, I won't even go there:faint: ...but today, I can watch the races and try to forget the dire straights this weather has put us farmers in.

Everyone...have a great weekend:ThmbUp:

Say what you please because I am not against the BC races being conducted; I just think it is ridiculous to called them World Championship races. Also, my yearly racing attendance schedule includes the TC races with the exception of the Preakness since 1999, the BC races as previously noted, Saratoga, and Belmont.

If you have other adverse comment(s) about my schedule please do so because they will probably have nothing to do with racing.

[joanied]

Say what you please because I am not against the BC races being conducted; I just think it is ridiculous to called them World Championship races. Also, my yearly racing attendance schedule includes the TC races with the exception of the Preakness since 1999, the BC races as previously noted, Saratoga, and Belmont.

If you have other adverse comment(s) about my schedule please do so because they will probably have nothing to do with racing.

I don't think you mentioning your going to the BC and the TC races has anything to do with this thread or the opinions on the BC...hence Fencebored asking if you want a cookie...which I thought was pretty funny:D ...it's great you get to go to these big race events...but, really, why mention it...

anyway...opinions abound...and there ain't nothin' wrong with that:ThmbUp:
:) :) :)

[FenceBored]

I am not into "nothings" and that is the essence of your replies, but keep them coming because their added value is comical.

Thank you for admitting that you don't know what you're talking about.

[gm10]

Thank you for admitting that you don't know what you're talking about.
That's a stupid comment. HE clearly does, even if you don't agree.

[gm10]

gm10....IF the BC were to change it's policy of European horses coming here, it would still hold tremendous value and interest for the American race fans...of that I have no doubt...and the fields would be just as large because the number of Euro's entered hasn't been all that many anyway...I beleive the most Euro's we've had here for the event has been over last year & this year because of the Pro Ride.
As for the world changing, as in Asia, Middle East ect. 'running the world'...that is politics and has no business being mentioned here...IMO...I won't even address that....except to say, if connections of horse from South Africa, China ect. want to come here for the BC...we all know they are most welcome to do so.



Yes, it would still be interesting, yes, the fields would still be big. But what would the quality of those fields be? The BC maintains its position due of its purses, no other reason than that. And those purses will not be the same if the event gets downgraded to American championships. I don't think anyone can dispute this.

As for the Asians, Middle East, ... got nothing to do with politics, but it illustrates how the wealth distribution of the world is changing. There is no way that they will keep playing second fiddle (in every respect) to Europe/America once they have the means. The Chinese just bought Hummer, didn't they? What does that tell you? They've got trillions of dollars in foreign reserves. One decade from now, they'll be able buy anything, including the best stallions and mares.

[Cratos]

Thank you for admitting that you don't know what you're talking about.


Good, that makes us "friends" on the PA forum and I will do my humble best to learn from the "smart one" in the future.

[Cratos]

I don't think you mentioning your going to the BC and the TC races has anything to do with this thread or the opinions on the BC...hence Fencebored asking if you want a cookie...which I thought was pretty funny:D ...it's great you get to go to these big race events...but, really, why mention it...

anyway...opinions abound...and there ain't nothin' wrong with that:ThmbUp:
:) :) :)

It was just letting you know that I wasn't a "sideliner"; I do attend a few races because I truly love this game.

[PaceAdvantage]

Should the races on FAKE DIRT be ignored when voting for Eclipse Awards?It's a third surface and should be treated as such.

Would you agree that a horse who has never run on Turf be ineligible for one of the Turf eclipse awards? Of course you would.

It's ludicrous, in my opinion, to think that Sea the Stars would deserve HOY if he won the BC Classic over a surface that plays more like TURF than anything else.

If STS were to win the BC Classic over a real DIRT course, beating Summer Bird and the rest in the process, then I might be more inclined to agree with those who claim he deserves HOY.

[FenceBored]

Good, that makes us "friends" on the PA forum and I will do my humble best to learn from the "smart one" in the future.

Hope you have a nice time at Santa Anita. And be sure to pay attention to gm10's picks for the BC. His Gitano Hernando pick in the Goodwood was solid and paid very well.

[WinterTriangle]

I don't get the whole argument. There are enough *awards* to go around.:)

There ARE world thoroughbred rankings, and such. As of now, STS is on top of all of them.

I doubt his connections feel they have to come over here, race in the BC, to get an "American" award, (which everyone has pretty much admitted should go to a DIRT HORSE, since dirt is the primarily cherished surface for us Americans.)

I guess I don't get why a dirt horse is better than a turf horse though? Horses running on natural surfaces all thru history, dirt or grass, both okay with me. :confused:

Curlin was oten referred to as "america's best dirt horse", whereas gio ponti is often referred to as "america's best turf horse."

If HOY is for dirt horse, then it needs to be renamed HOY-on-dirt. Add to that, the high point of American racing, by all accounts, is the Kentucky Derby...this is what they always say when talking about racing history.

So, is the BC the high point of American racing, or is it the KY Derby? And if so, shouldn't you have to run in either/or to even GET an award?

[Cratos]

I don't get the whole argument. There are enough *awards* to go around.:)

There ARE world thoroughbred rankings, and such. As of now, STS is on top of all of them.

I doubt his connections feel they have to come over here, race in the BC, to get an "American" award, (which everyone has pretty much admitted should go to a DIRT HORSE, since dirt is the primarily cherished surface for us Americans.)

I guess I don't get why a dirt horse is better than a turf horse though? Horses running on natural surfaces all thru history, dirt or grass, both okay with me. :confused:

Curlin was oten referred to as "america's best dirt horse", whereas gio ponti is often referred to as "america's best turf horse."

If HOY is for dirt horse, then it needs to be renamed HOY-on-dirt. Add to that, the high point of American racing, by all accounts, is the Kentucky Derby...this is what they always say when talking about racing history.

So, is the BC the high point of American racing, or is it the KY Derby? And if so, shouldn't you have to run in either/or to even GET an award?


WinterTriangle, you make an excellent point about racing surfaces and the KY Derby being America’s premier race.

However 40+ years ago when I started following and wagering on racehorses it was common to see whether the “leader of the pack” at the time could run on both dirt and turf; and even sprint.

Also along with the KY Derby there was the JCGC being run at a 2 mile distance and NYRA had the handicap triple crown which consisted of the Met Mile, the Brooklyn, and the Suburban.

However this is 2009 and there is not the same mind set in racing today. Races have gotten shorter in distance and horses are trained to be “surface specialists” which I don’t think will change in the near future.

[NYPlayer]

...Rachel deserves HOY, but there is one horse who can rationally overmatch her in the voting and that is Sea the Stars with a strong BC performance.

If Sea the Stars races in the Classic, but loses to Summer Bird, what then? Rachel may have visions of the Eclipse award, but, in her absence, all of that could change on the Evening of November 7.

[Marlin]

I would think Sea The Stars would have a decent chance at an eclipse. If he beats both Birds in the BC he could easily be our 3yo male champion. He has realistically zero chance at HOY. The only way I could see him becoming a viable candidate for that award is if Rachel DOES race and is trounced.

[FenceBored]

OK, "World Championships" so give me a list of the horses who have come to the World Champinships not trained or campaigned in Europe or North America? There is some pretty good racing in Italy, Germany, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, New Zealend, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico and some Carribean countries. How many have ever shown up for the BC "World Championships"? None that hadn't already been shipped in as 3yo's. We send horses to Hong Kong and Japan but I haven't seen one of theri runners come to the BC. Same with the Middle East - Saudi Arabia and Dubai. If it wasn't for Darley/Godolphin there wouldn't be one Middle Eastern runner in the "World Championships". They are the North American championships with just a little bit of influence from France and the British Isles.

Check out Breeders Cup Stats (http://stats.breederscup.com/). They focus on the country/state where the horse was foaled, not where it was based, so for example Jazzy (ARG) is under Argentina though she was US based, and Lady Sprinter is listed as US, even though all her races prior to the Breeders' Cup were in Argentina. They don't give percentages, so here goes (in descending percentage order):

Pct Starters Winners
by Country Bred
-----------------------
USA 78.92% 77.95%
IRE 07.63% 08.72%
GB_ 06.00% 06.15%
CAN 03.35% 02.05%
FRA 02.29% 02.56%
ARG 00.66% 02.05%
GER 00.31% 00.51%
CHI 00.18% 00.00%
BRZ 00.13% 00.00%
JPN 00.13% 00.00%
AUS 00.09% 00.00%
NZ_ 00.09% 00.00%
SAF 00.09% 00.00%
UAE 00.09% 00.00%
VEN 00.04% 00.00%

Just the US and Europe
USA 78.92% 77.95%
EUR 16.23% 17.95% Combination of GB, IRE, FRA, GER
-----------------
TOT 95.15% 95.90%

[Moyers Pond]

Sea The Stars is the closest thing we have seen to Secretariat since the great one himself. He would toy with the very average group of American horses on the proride.

There is no upside to bringing him here though. He wins by 5 and everyone says so what.

The race everyone would have loved to see is Zenyatta, Rachel and Sea The Stars, but on the proride at 10f I think Sea The Stars would make both of them look very ordinary.

If you watch the end of this video of Sea The Stars at the 150-200 mark he looks like the absolute perfect horse. A true horse for the ages. I like Rachel and Zenyatta but I can't say they remind me of a great horse like Secretariat. Sea The Stars does. We are lucky to have seen a horse like that in our lifetime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQCzwsr_-1k&feature=channel_page

[DRIVEWAY]

It's a third surface and should be treated as such.

Would you agree that a horse who has never run on Turf be ineligible for one of the Turf eclipse awards? Of course you would.

It's ludicrous, in my opinion, to think that Sea the Stars would deserve HOY if he won the BC Classic over a surface that plays more like TURF than anything else.

If STS were to win the BC Classic over a real DIRT course, beating Summer Bird and the rest in the process, then I might be more inclined to agree with those who claim he deserves HOY.

Then what would you do with Zenyatta? Should she be disqualified for Eclipse Awards?

[joanied]

It was just letting you know that I wasn't a "sideliner"; I do attend a few races because I truly love this game.

Well, if you were a 'sideliner', you prob'ly wouldn't have joined this forum...so I guess I (we) already knew that....I'm glad you love this game...and you are entitled to your opinions, same as everyone...including...me:)

[joanied]

Yes, it would still be interesting, yes, the fields would still be big. But what would the quality of those fields be? The BC maintains its position due of its purses, no other reason than that. And those purses will not be the same if the event gets downgraded to American championships. I don't think anyone can dispute this.

As for the Asians, Middle East, ... got nothing to do with politics, but it illustrates how the wealth distribution of the world is changing. There is no way that they will keep playing second fiddle (in every respect) to Europe/America once they have the means. The Chinese just bought Hummer, didn't they? What does that tell you? They've got trillions of dollars in foreign reserves. One decade from now, they'll be able buy anything, including the best stallions and mares.

I don't agree with your first paragraph...it's not just the purse monies, it's also the prestige...and despite it being the World Championships, it still pretty much determines who gets the American Eclipse awards.

As for the Asians, Middle East ect...that is still politcis, IMO...the Chinese have been buying this and that for a very long time...and when I see them come over here to our sales and start buying up the best horses...well, it'll be a cold day in Hell.

[Cat Thief]

US horses should take precedent over any other countries horses for any awards

[46zilzal]

US horses should take precedent over any other countries horses for any awards
Like most of anything: no objectiveness, none at all.

World Series champs?? and then the little Dominican Republic makes the WORLD champs look like little league players

[Java Gold@TFT]

Just the US and Europe
USA 78.92% 77.95%
EUR 16.23% 17.95% Combination of GB, IRE, FRA, GER
-----------------
TOT 95.15% 95.90%

So, add Canada as North America and 99.5% of BC runners are foaled in 5 countries yet it's still the "World Championships". I wonder how the nummbers might be different if the horses didn't have to be nominated or have their stallion nominated before they ever race. I think horses like Paseana ro Bayakoa may have been bred in South America but had to pay supplementals to run even though they were running and training in the US before they ran in the BC.

[PaceAdvantage]

Like most of anything: no objectiveness, none at all.

World Series champs?? and then the little Dominican Republic makes the WORLD champs look like little league playersWhat are you talking about? Nobody ever knows half the time...

Has a horse who has NEVER run in the United States EVER won an Eclipse Award?

[WinterTriangle]

There is no upside to bringing him here though. He wins by 5 and everyone says so what.

STS has beaten 20 Group-1 winners in last 4 races alone....and now has 6 Group-1's to his name.

I don't think his connections believe he needs to come here to win an award.:)

[Java Gold@TFT]

STS has beaten 20 Group-1 winners in last 4 races alone....and now has 6 Group-1's to his name.

I don't think his connections believe he needs to come here to win an award.:)
He has already won the Cartier award and will go to a breeding shed in Europe so the American Eclipse award adds absolutely no value to the horse's future. A potential loss in the BC Classic would have an influence on his initial stud fee. A win would not. His value as a stud has probably already been determined and his first 3 or 4 crops will determine whether that goes up or down. Just looking at his dam side and his immediate relatives I would guess that $75K - $100K a pop is not out of the question for a first year sire. American HOY would not change that one bit.

[gm10]

I don't agree with your first paragraph...it's not just the purse monies, it's also the prestige...and despite it being the World Championships, it still pretty much determines who gets the American Eclipse awards.

As for the Asians, Middle East ect...that is still politcis, IMO...the Chinese have been buying this and that for a very long time...and when I see them come over here to our sales and start buying up the best horses...well, it'll be a cold day in Hell.


Purses would patently not be the same if the BC were to become American Championships only. An American champion is worth less than a world champion in breeding value. That means less good horses come over, smaller crowds, smaller betting handle. Simple as.

Can I point out that Sea The Stars is owned by a Chinese? Top-end Asian purses are already bigger than top-end American purses. The writing's on the wall.

[FenceBored]

I agree with you. The BC is not the world championships, because a real world championships would be held on a different continent every year.

On the other hand, there is no international body that can rightfully dispute the BC claim of being the world championships.


So if the BC Board changed Greg Aveoli's title from "President and CEO" to "Galactic Master of the Horse," you'd think he really was "Galactic Master of the Horse" because there's no galaxywide organization "that can rightfully dispute the BC claim?"

There are factual reasons to dispute the "World Championship" label. The particpants in the Breeders' Cup are overwhelmingly bred in the North America generally (>80%) and the US in particular (>77%), figures far out of line with America's percentage of the global number of thoroughbred foals, but not out of line for an American event with a high international profile. The revenue generating stallion and foal nominating programs create a barrier to entry for the owners of championship quality horses who were not foal nominated, and even more for those whose sire was not nominated, meaning that horses who would otherwise be anticipated at a championship race must weigh the odds of recouping the supplemental nomination fee for the BC. The timing and location of the event make full participation by Southern Hemisphere participants unlikely. For these reasons, and more, it is foolish to treat the use of the word "World" in the name Breeders' Cup World Championships as anything more than marketing puffery. The name Breeder's Cup Championships was more accurate and did not reduce the quality of the races or the international marketability of the event in the least.


If the BC were to be demoted to be an American championship, either by itself, or by a international horse racing body, I think it is only a matter of years before the BC comes to an end. Why? Well frankly, I don't think many people would be interested in it. The American championships already exists in a way, it is the collection of a handful of big races like the Kentucky Derby, Woodward, etc. An American championships would be somewhat of a redundant event.


Strangely enough, Mr. Gaines looked at that very landscape of big races on the American racing scene, with the parochialness of the debates on which horses were best (Horse X in NY, or Horse Y in California, or Horse Z from somewhere in between), and thought that an event bringing the best horses in America together in a "neutral" setting was needed. That need has not diminished. Whether the organization has lost its way, is another debate.

Thankfully there isn't the slightest chance the BC would even try to restrict entry to just American bred horses. By the rules of the American Graded Stakes Committee no race in the US can be Graded, or even Listed, if it is restricted by something other than age or gender. BC Limited will never make a move that threatens the grading of their races.