Fan Preferences to be Focus of Racing Conference!

[andymays]

http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2009/10/05/news/doc4ac98bf59e27d615952202.txt

Excerpt:

SARATOGA SPRINGS — More than 250 racing executives from throughout the United States and world will gather in the Spa City for an International Simulcast Conference from Oct. 12 through Oct. 14 at the Saratoga Hilton.

Excerpt:

“This year, we’re really trying to include fan opinion, too,” said Jane Murray of the Maryland-based Thoroughbred Racing Association, a group that is co-sponsoring the conference with Harness Tracks of America.

[Ian Meyers]

It's Horse Players that are important. There's a distinct difference.

"Fans" (for the most part) don't bet. They come out in droves to see Rachel or watch a Derby. They generate very little for the industry on the days they attend the races (because many don't bet) and virtually zero for the rest of the year. They are a source of revenue for Saratoga and Del Mar but yield very little to a Suffolk, a Charles Town or a Freehold.

Horse Players will stay up until midnight on the east coast to wager on a 5000n2L 4 1/2 furlong race from Los Al or a 6000 conditioned claimer from Fraser. In wagering on these events horse players generate money for the tracks and the horsemen. Few "fans" are in attendance on a Thursday night in January at Turfway to watch bottom level maidens run around the track. The only ones interested in that kind of event (other than the horsemen and the tracks) are the horse players. I have learned over the years that very few "Fans" become Horse Players; my brother who has a senior level marketing position in the television sports/entertainment industry tells me the research confirms what I always believed to be true. My wife went to school in Albany and went to Saratoga every weekend while she was there. Loves to watch Rachel on TV and hasn't missed a triple crown race (on TV) in years. She has not bet one nickle on a horse race in the 20 years we've been together. Won't even go to the track with me for the same reason she won't go to a casino. She just doesn't like gambling.

As an industry the key to our survival is to make this as attractive, as exciting a gambling proposition as possible through lower takeouts, cutting edge technology and better information for horse players amongst other things. We need to target those individuals that enjoy the gambling aspect, people that play poker and bet on sports on-line. That's where we'll all earn our keep.

IMHO, we have focused too much effort on the casual fan and haven't done as good a job as need be attracting and keeping the horse player. I love this game but when it stops becoming an attractive gambling proposition for me I will have to dramatically scale back my involvement. I am cautiously optimistic we still have time to change. :)

[andymays]

http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2009/10/05/news/doc4ac98bf59e27d615952202.txt

Excerpt:

SARATOGA SPRINGS — More than 250 racing executives from throughout the United States and world will gather in the Spa City for an International Simulcast Conference from Oct. 12 through Oct. 14 at the Saratoga Hilton.

Excerpt:

“This year, we’re really trying to include fan opinion, too,” said Jane Murray of the Maryland-based Thoroughbred Racing Association, a group that is co-sponsoring the conference with Harness Tracks of America.


Anyone who goes should wear a string of garlic around their neck. Also bring some holy water and a few stakes. I'll bet all the mirrors are taken down in the facility during the conference. ;)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

A trainer's ideal owner is a person who asks no questions and offers no input and pays the bill on time.

A racetracks ideal customer is a fan who decides to bet on horses and who isn't motivated by a carrot stick of winning horseplayers to get them there.

Both of these types exist, but there aren't too many of each.

[Bruddah]

I believe Ian Meyers has the definitions correct. However, I disagree about the importance of Fans. Fans can make up a large TV audience and put their butts in the seats. Which is good for the Sport. Ergo, we need many more Fans. Also, Fans are like caterpillars waiting to become buterflies. (Horse Players)

Ian, you aren't going to get butterflies until the Fans go through the cycle to become Horse Players. All of us old butterflies are dying off, the Sport needs them desperately. :)

[KidCapper]

I may be in the minority here but I was a "fan" 1st. 20+ years ago when I 1st got "hooked" on the game. The triple crown races on TV that year (1988) Easy Goer- Sunday Silence turned me from fan to bettor. It not only got me into the game but has kept me there ever since.

My 2 Cents.

KidCapper

[Imriledup]

Fan preferences? Seriously? Wow. Now they're comedians too. They don't care one iota about the fans, never have and probably never will.

[Ian Meyers]

I believe Ian Meyers has the definitions correct. However, I disagree about the importance of Fans. Fans can make up a large TV audience and put their butts in the seats. Which is good for the Sport. Ergo, we need many more Fans. Also, Fans are like caterpillars waiting to become buterflies. (Horse Players)

Ian, you aren't going to get butterflies until the Fans go through the cycle to become Horse Players. All of us old butterflies are dying off, the Sport needs them desperately. :)


Bruddah, difference of opinion makes the horse race. ;) I believe that very few fans turn into the horse players this game needs to survive. Further, I personally know many more "old butterflies" that have gotten disgusted and given up the game than have died off. And I knew/know some pretty heavy hitting butterflies.

There's no reason not to try and attract "fans" but until such time as we recognize that racing cannot survive without the gamblers we will continue to lose ground. JMHO.

[lamboguy]

fans do not bet money, they only show up when big races take place. good looking gals walk around and guys chase them and wind up buying beers and never make it to the window's.

this sport needs people to gamble at it. the handles have dropped to the ground and now are probably gonna drop underground. racing must go after the gamblers, not the cute girls.

[the_fat_man]

The way I see it racing needs to do A SINGLE THING: provide accurate data and make it available, for free. This includes VIDEO; live feeds and replays.

Anyone who can't win with accurate/available data really should be playing cards or betting on sports. Anyone who needs rebates (or past posting favors or special shoe information, or tweaked data by someone else, etc.) to win or lowered takeout, and getting accurate/available data won't make them a winner, really needs to get over to the casino.

Sooner or later racing management will wise up to the fact that their game is the most challenging around and will attract those that are most qualified to play it. It will then become a very niche activity.

All this BS with lowering takeout, and whining about poly, and making the game more marketable to fans is just a joke. Improve the technology and, thus, the data, and let those up to the challenge stay in the game.

Of course, this won't keep the many who think they're up to the challenge out.;)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The way I see it racing needs to do A SINGLE THING: provide accurate data and make it available, for free. This includes VIDEO; live feeds and replays.

Anyone who can't win with accurate/available data really should be playing cards or betting on sports. Anyone who needs rebates (or past posting favors or special shoe information, or tweaked data by someone else, etc.) to win or lowered takeout, and getting accurate/available data won't make them a winner, really needs to get over to the casino.

Sooner or later racing management will wise up to the fact that their game is the most challenging around and will attract those that are most qualified to play it. It will then become a very niche activity.

All this BS with lowering takeout, and whining about poly, and making the game more marketable to fans is just a joke. Improve the technology and, thus, the data, and let those up to the challenge stay in the game.

Of course, this won't keep the many who think they're up to the challenge out.;)
I can't stop laughing. Was this post for real?
Accurate data puts everyone on an equal playing field while betting into a 21% average takeout in your perfect world.

Only those up to the challenge will show up? How will racing survive, seriously?

[Imriledup]

The way I see it racing needs to do A SINGLE THING: provide accurate data and make it available, for free. This includes VIDEO; live feeds and replays.

Anyone who can't win with accurate/available data really should be playing cards or betting on sports. Anyone who needs rebates (or past posting favors or special shoe information, or tweaked data by someone else, etc.) to win or lowered takeout, and getting accurate/available data won't make them a winner, really needs to get over to the casino.

Sooner or later racing management will wise up to the fact that their game is the most challenging around and will attract those that are most qualified to play it. It will then become a very niche activity.

All this BS with lowering takeout, and whining about poly, and making the game more marketable to fans is just a joke. Improve the technology and, thus, the data, and let those up to the challenge stay in the game.

Of course, this won't keep the many who think they're up to the challenge out.;)

I don't like this, i loved back in the day when there was no Beyer figs. I had the time and intelligence to make my own figures, i was way ahead of the pack, people who worked 9 to 5 didn't have time to do this and there wasn't Beyer handing them fairly accurate numbers for free.

[the_fat_man]

I can't stop laughing. Was this post for real?
Accurate data puts everyone on an equal playing field while betting into a 21% average takeout in your perfect world.

Only those up to the challenge will show up? How will racing survive, seriously?

You've been BEGGING for lower takeout for years. Sooner or later it'll kick in that you just don't have the 'tools' to beat the game. Until that time, keep begging and trying to convince other than THEY CAN'T WIN because YOU can't win.

[the_fat_man]

I don't like this, i loved back in the day when there was no Beyer figs. I had the time and intelligence to make my own figures, i was way ahead of the pack, people who worked 9 to 5 didn't have time to do this and there wasn't Beyer handing them fairly accurate numbers for free.

You're missing the point. General data is FLAWED. It's not accurate. Which means that 'tweaked' data is not accurate either. If you start with accurate data and you have a way to 'tweak' it that gives you an edge, you can crush the game.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I don't like this, i loved back in the day when there was no Beyer figs. I had the time and intelligence to make my own figures, i was way ahead of the pack, people who worked 9 to 5 didn't have time to do this and there wasn't Beyer handing them fairly accurate numbers for free.
This is an excellent point. The playing field was equaled and the collective takeout went up with triactors in every race and supers in many.

Back in the 70's, 1 in four (one in three tops) race track customers actually used a racing to form to make selections, and the programs didn't have any past performance data.

Then the remaining sucker money disappeared into slots and lotteries.

Nowadays it is really sharp players and sharp players. Very little dumb money in the pools anymore.

So we are basically flipping a coin and getting 4-5 odds if we win.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

You've been BEGGING for lower takeout for years. Sooner or later it'll kick in that you just don't have the 'tools' to beat the game. Until that time, keep begging and trying to convince other than THEY CAN'T WIN because YOU can't win.
Not true. I made money this year.....thanks to rebates. Not a lot, but I'm up money.

There are no such things as having the tools to beat the game anymore without a substantial rebate. That is a fact.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

You're missing the point. General data is FLAWED. It's not accurate. Which means that 'tweaked' data is not accurate either. If you start with accurate data and you have a way to 'tweak' it that gives you an edge, you can crush the game.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[miesque]

This is an interesting debate and my thought on this is that in most cases you need to be hooked/enticed to the sport as a fan of some sort first and then, if you have the predisposition to do so you evolve into a horseplayer as you see the potential it has and get "hooked" by that element as well. That said, I think that after a certain amount of time, if you haven't made that leap from general fan to horseplayer, you are unlikely to ever do so. So in other words if you are a fan who follows racing and rarely bets other then very occasionally, I think its highly unlikely that you are all of a sudden going to wake up one day a decade or two later and decide to become a hard core horseplayer. I am sure it probably does happen but I would think not that often. Now the grey area is whether you can convert someone who is older, about ready to retire or newly retired, whose only real previous exposure to horse racing is watching the Kentucky Derby occasionally on TV into and that is the major exposure. That is the $64 question in my opinion and I really don't know how difficult that is to achieve. I do think that when targeting types of individuals who are most likely to become horseplayers, it has to be the quantitative, analytical sorts (Finance, accounting, engineering, programming, etc) versus more artistic, free thinking types (not saying artists can't be hard core horseplayers, I just think they are much less likely to do so). This is of course a very broad generalization and I know there are tons of exceptions, but I think its something to keep in mind when discussing sources of potential future horseplayers.

[cj]

The way I see it racing needs to do A SINGLE THING: provide accurate data and make it available, for free. This includes VIDEO; live feeds and replays.

Anyone who can't win with accurate/available data really should be playing cards or betting on sports. Anyone who needs rebates (or past posting favors or special shoe information, or tweaked data by someone else, etc.) to win or lowered takeout, and getting accurate/available data won't make them a winner, really needs to get over to the casino.

Sooner or later racing management will wise up to the fact that their game is the most challenging around and will attract those that are most qualified to play it. It will then become a very niche activity.

All this BS with lowering takeout, and whining about poly, and making the game more marketable to fans is just a joke. Improve the technology and, thus, the data, and let those up to the challenge stay in the game.

Of course, this won't keep the many who think they're up to the challenge out.;)

If you do this, and the only thing left is sharp players that can win, NONE of them will win in the end. There is no way in the world a bunch of very sharp players are going to bet into a 20% rake and come out winners.

[the_fat_man]

If you do this, and the only thing left is sharp players that can win, NONE of them will win in the end. There is no way in the world a bunch of very sharp players are going to bet into a 20% rake and come out winners.

By that time the game will be GLOBAL. Sooner or later they'll open it up. Think of the Asian markets, alone. There will always be degenerates looking for action. No need to make the game easier for those unable to beat it.

You know what I'm talking about, you'd FEAST on a field that consisted of all these lose 5% and go for a rebate types. Actually, that's what you're already doing. :ThmbUp:

This forum is full of people who want to convince me that the only way to win is with rebates. I don't buy it, no matter how it's spun.

[cj]

Well, if the game goes global that is whole different story, at least until they figure out how to use the data.

We still can't bet all the tracks on one or even two ADWs now, so I'm not holding my breath waiting on the game to be globalized.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

By that time the game will be GLOBAL. Sooner or later they'll open it up. Think of the Asian markets, alone. There will always be degenerates looking for action. No need to make the game easier for those unable to beat it.

You know what I'm talking about, you'd FEAST on a field that consisted of all these lose 5% and go for a rebate types. Actually, that's what you're already doing. :ThmbUp:

This forum is full of people who want to convince me that the only way to win is with rebates. I don't buy it, no matter how it's spun.
I heard from two sources in the know that at HPI over the course of any one year, only one in 1000 accounts show a profit. And not necessarily the same people each year.

But who cares about empirical evidence, you can't be swayed by that.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Well, if the game goes global that is whole different story, at least until they figure out how to use the data.

We still can't bet all the tracks on one or even two ADWs now, so I'm not holding my breath waiting on the game to be globalized.
It is globalized at Betfair (except for the USA), but they have a 4% commission, so this is what Fat Boy is talking about.

[the_fat_man]

It is globalized at Betfair (except for the USA), but they have a 4% commission, so this is what Fat Boy is talking about.

Don't be bitter. You can't beat the game without help and you think that others can't either. I realize you think that 'winning' with a rebate makes you special. And you (and the rest of the enlightened here) want to share how to lose 5% with the rest of us. ha ha ha

To me you're nothing but a joke. Keep begging for rebates and lashing out at people that are crushing the game. It's real INADEQUATE of you. ;)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Don't be bitter. You can't beat the game without help and you think that others can't either. I realize you think that 'winning' with a rebate makes you special. And you (and the rest of the enlightened here) want to share how to lose 5% with the rest of us. ha ha ha

To me you're nothing but a joke. Keep begging for rebates and lashing out at people that are crushing the game. It's real INADEQUATE of you. ;)
To me it is you who is the joke. You are completely out of touch with reality.

[rokitman]

They need to stop the bullshit and get a betting exchange going immediately.

[CBedo]

If you do this, and the only thing left is sharp players that can win, NONE of them will win in the end. There is no way in the world a bunch of very sharp players are going to bet into a 20% rake and come out winners.Exactly. It's like 10 great (and fairly equal) poker players sitting down and playing against each other. Eventually, they will all go broke from losing the rake each hand.

When you hear about the "big game" at the Bellagio with all the big players playing, there is always one or two "fish" in the game.

[Ian Meyers]

Exactly. It's like 10 great (and fairly equal) poker players sitting down and playing against each other. Eventually, they will all go broke from losing the rake each hand.

That's pretty much the way the pools are now at most tracks.

[Indulto]

Don't be bitter. You can't beat the game without help and you think that others can't either. I realize you think that 'winning' with a rebate makes you special. And you (and the rest of the enlightened here) want to share how to lose 5% with the rest of us. ha ha ha

To me you're nothing but a joke. Keep begging for rebates and lashing out at people that are crushing the game. It's real INADEQUATE of you. ;)tfm,
Good to see you back. What has it been -- a couple of years?

I believe you are capable of beating the game without a rebate, but I imagine it must take great discipline with a greater emphasis on handicapping than wager size, so maybe your belt size these days is lower as well. ;) I doubt very many others do it though, or even try. IMO it's really too high to keep most recreational players in the game very long. You may not have anybody's money to take if you don't start supporting the call for reduced takeout.

How are you doing on synthetics BTW?

[the_fat_man]

tfm,
Good to see you back. What has it been -- a couple of years?

I believe you are capable of beating the game without a rebate, but I imagine it must take great discipline with a greater emphasis on handicapping than wager size, so maybe your belt size these days is lower as well. ;) I doubt very many others do it though, or even try. IMO it's really too high to keep most recreational players in the game very long. You may not have anybody's money to take if you don't start supporting the call for reduced takeout.

How are you doing on synthetics BTW?

I don't want reduced takeout because I don't want losers becoming winners. I want the game to remain 'difficult'. I want 99% of the players out there doing the same things; using the same programs, the same figures, the same data sources, etc. I want 99% of the players 'seeing' the game the same way. All I ask for is accurate, easily accessible data. I get that in very short spurts at KEE and DMR and I get it for a long season at WO. If things were to stay as is, I'd be fine with it. Odds are that TRAKUS will be at most tracks before takeout is reduced, however, and things can thus only get better. Maybe I won't continue to win but I'm winning now, and at a very nice clip.

I only play sythetics; and turf at those tracks. Needless to say, I group POLY haters with REBATE coveters.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I don't want reduced takeout because I don't want losers becoming winners. I want the game to remain 'difficult'. I want 99% of the players out there doing the same things; using the same programs, the same figures, the same data sources, etc. I want 99% of the players 'seeing' the game the same way. All I ask for is accurate, easily accessible data. I get that in very short spurts at KEE and DMR and I get it for a long season at WO. If things were to stay as is, I'd be fine with it. Odds are that TRAKUS will be at most tracks before takeout is reduced, however, and things can thus only get better. Maybe I won't continue to win but I'm winning now, and at a very nice clip.

I only play sythetics; and turf at those tracks. Needless to say, I group POLY haters with REBATE coveters.
Do you get rebates? If not, why not? Is it an ethical problem for you :lol:

[Indulto]

It's Horse Players that are important. There's a distinct difference.

"Fans" (for the most part) don't bet. They come out in droves to see Rachel or watch a Derby. They generate very little for the industry on the days they attend the races (because many don't bet) and virtually zero for the rest of the year. They are a source of revenue for Saratoga and Del Mar but yield very little to a Suffolk, a Charles Town or a Freehold.

Horse Players will stay up until midnight on the east coast to wager on a 5000n2L 4 1/2 furlong race from Los Al or a 6000 conditioned claimer from Fraser. In wagering on these events horse players generate money for the tracks and the horsemen. Few "fans" are in attendance on a Thursday night in January at Turfway to watch bottom level maidens run around the track. The only ones interested in that kind of event (other than the horsemen and the tracks) are the horse players. I have learned over the years that very few "Fans" become Horse Players; my brother who has a senior level marketing position in the television sports/entertainment industry tells me the research confirms what I always believed to be true. My wife went to school in Albany and went to Saratoga every weekend while she was there. Loves to watch Rachel on TV and hasn't missed a triple crown race (on TV) in years. She has not bet one nickle on a horse race in the 20 years we've been together. Won't even go to the track with me for the same reason she won't go to a casino. She just doesn't like gambling.

As an industry the key to our survival is to make this as attractive, as exciting a gambling proposition as possible through lower takeouts, cutting edge technology and better information for horse players amongst other things. We need to target those individuals that enjoy the gambling aspect, people that play poker and bet on sports on-line. That's where we'll all earn our keep.

IMHO, we have focused too much effort on the casual fan and haven't done as good a job as need be attracting and keeping the horse player. I love this game but when it stops becoming an attractive gambling proposition for me I will have to dramatically scale back my involvement. I am cautiously optimistic we still have time to change. :)IM,
My wife has no desire to gamble, either, and has little interest in the actual racing unless I'm still alive in the final leg of a horizontal or a horse's appearance has particular appeal for her, but she is still good company at the track; especially when accompanied by other couples. She stopped going with me for many years once she became pregnant, and subsequently wouldn’t take kids there, primarily due to the hygiene factor. I agree with what you’ve said, but I wish focus on bettors could be extended to “bettor support personnel” for lack of a better term.

Even lower takeout won’t get some players to come and bet, or bet more either on-track or on-line due to family-unfriendliness; both on-track and on TV. I’m not talking about professional players, here, but players who would become regular, serious players if they could concentrate on the game without being separated from their spouses and/or kids. Apparently, not even the bettors can stand TVG, so what spouse is going to stay in the same room with that stuff in the background? I suspect that most parents try to limit their kids’ exposure to TV racing coverage that doesn’t actually show the horses.

[jelly]

I don't want reduced takeout because I don't want losers becoming winners. I want the game to remain 'difficult'. I want 99% of the players out there doing the same things; using the same programs, the same figures, the same data sources, etc. I want 99% of the players 'seeing' the game the same way. All I ask for is accurate, easily accessible data. I get that in very short spurts at KEE and DMR and I get it for a long season at WO. If things were to stay as is, I'd be fine with it. Odds are that TRAKUS will be at most tracks before takeout is reduced, however, and things can thus only get better. Maybe I won't continue to win but I'm winning now, and at a very nice clip.

I only play sythetics; and turf at those tracks. Needless to say, I group POLY haters with REBATE coveters.



I get It,Your winning now,but with the lower Takeout,you would win to much? :bang:

[Indulto]

I don't want reduced takeout because I don't want losers becoming winners. I want the game to remain 'difficult'. I want 99% of the players out there doing the same things; using the same programs, the same figures, the same data sources, etc. I want 99% of the players 'seeing' the game the same way. All I ask for is accurate, easily accessible data. I get that in very short spurts at KEE and DMR and I get it for a long season at WO. If things were to stay as is, I'd be fine with it. Odds are that TRAKUS will be at most tracks before takeout is reduced, however, and things can thus only get better. Maybe I won't continue to win but I'm winning now, and at a very nice clip.

I only play sythetics; and turf at those tracks. Needless to say, I group POLY haters with REBATE coveters.Well it sure sounds like your altitude finally matched your attitude.:ThmbUp:

[Imriledup]

This is an interesting debate and my thought on this is that in most cases you need to be hooked/enticed to the sport as a fan of some sort first and then, if you have the predisposition to do so you evolve into a horseplayer as you see the potential it has and get "hooked" by that element as well. That said, I think that after a certain amount of time, if you haven't made that leap from general fan to horseplayer, you are unlikely to ever do so. So in other words if you are a fan who follows racing and rarely bets other then very occasionally, I think its highly unlikely that you are all of a sudden going to wake up one day a decade or two later and decide to become a hard core horseplayer. I am sure it probably does happen but I would think not that often. Now the grey area is whether you can convert someone who is older, about ready to retire or newly retired, whose only real previous exposure to horse racing is watching the Kentucky Derby occasionally on TV into and that is the major exposure. That is the $64 question in my opinion and I really don't know how difficult that is to achieve. I do think that when targeting types of individuals who are most likely to become horseplayers, it has to be the quantitative, analytical sorts (Finance, accounting, engineering, programming, etc) versus more artistic, free thinking types (not saying artists can't be hard core horseplayers, I just think they are much less likely to do so). This is of course a very broad generalization and I know there are tons of exceptions, but I think its something to keep in mind when discussing sources of potential future horseplayers.


This is a great point about the analytical sorts, i was just talking to someone tonight who's friend's husband is an out of work lawyer and i told her that "i must know a few lawyers". The lawyer mentality is prevalent in horseplayers, i know tons of lawyers who are also interested in the handicapping puzzle and the guys i know who aren't actual lawyers who are fascinated by the handicapping would make great lawyers if that was what their chosen field happened to be.

I also agree with the "Certain amount of time" comment that you made. I know personally that i was head over heels fascinated by the chess match that is handicapping that i was deep into it from day one. There was no hemming and hawing, i was a hard core player (mindset) from day one and my thirst for knowledge was as high today as it was on day one.

I think amazingly great horseplayers are left brain right brain people. They have the gift of being great with math and numbers and also have the ability to paint a picture like an artist. Its a rare gift to have both abilities, but a person who can add numbers and also paint a picture is going to have a leg up on the competition in beating this game.

One last thing i want to mention that's seperate from Miesque's post is that i think the pool sizes are more important than the actual talent of the horseplayers. What i mean when i say this is that no matter how many great players are betting into a race, if they are all betting into the same race and the pool sizes are massive, you can find meat on the bone for some reason.

The undercard at Churchill on Derby day is a great example. Almost all the best players in the USA are betting into those pools, but you have a huge edge, the odds are not really predictable because the pool sizes are so big that the padding prevents anyone with a serious edge on any one race from screwing up the odds in favor of the 'right' horses.

[the_fat_man]

Well it sure sounds like your altitude finally matched your attitude.:ThmbUp:

My problem was that I just couldn't pick winners. :rolleyes:

So I got creative: paid a few grand for a DB program (and stocked it with plenty of data-- at mucho more bucks); bought a bunch of other programs and books; started using data from others; read up on all those creative money management programs; finally started to bet the overlay. :lol:

Uh huh

[rrbauer]

Fans are part of the scenery. To them the track is like a club. A place to go and be seen. When the music stops they make some small talk, finish their drinks and head for the exits. Today, there is very little at the track to entice fans to become more involved in the game. The only people who think horseplayers are important are other horseplayers: Misery loves company!