Best Way to Deal with Flag Burners

[Java Gold@TFT]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=846181#ixzz0S9fttjB0

This kid went into a VFW Post and was refused a beer because he didn't have ID. His reaction? Go take the flag outside of the post and burn it on the front lawn. When the veterans from the post tracked him down they gave him 3 choices. He decided against them calling the police or getting beat up and decided the best punishment was to be duct taped to a chair with a sign on him stating the crime he committted. It was his decision. If he thought what he did was right in any way he would have said to go ahead and call the police - his attorney would take it up in court but he knew he did something stupid and subjected himself to being embarrassed rather than being arrested. Now, somehow this is all about the rights of criminals who don't want the police to know about their criminal activity.

[illinoisbred]

Makes one wonder if this ignorant youth somehow thought the flag was a "gang" symbol.I'm getting just old enough[53] that I'm concerned about the future of this country. This kind of stupid behaivor is becoming too commonplace.I know today, because of the way too deep intervention of schools and child/family services,you can't reprimand/punish your own child without serious consequences. I've always believed this interference has led to the idiotic, delinquent; and just plain rude behaivor one sees or reads about daily.

[DJofSD]

Is BHO going to get involved in this too?

[illinoisbred]

Our society needs to shed Hillary Clinton's theory that it takes a village. This thinking has become so obtrusive and perilous to our future.I'm sure most of us here would have had hell to pay when we got home after doing something so stupid.We have to give parents their rights back.They should not live in fear that their brats will go to school and tell the teacher that daddy/mommy spanked me. Besides duct taping this kid ,those vets should have educated this ignoramus in the hardship/sacrifice/pride that the flag represents.He surely isn't learning it in school!

[GameTheory]

Our society needs to shed Hillary Clinton's theory that it takes a village. This thinking has become so obtrusive and perilous to our future.I'm sure most of us here would have had hell to pay when we got home after doing something so stupid.We have to give parents their rights back.They should not live in fear that their brats will go to school and tell the teacher that daddy/mommy spanked me. Besides duct taping this kid ,those vets should have educated this ignoramus in the hardship/sacrifice/pride that the flag represents.He surely isn't learning it in school!This "kid" is 21 -- I think it is too late for a spanking.

[illinoisbred]

This "kid" is 21 -- I think it is too late for a spanking.
That's the problem.It's too late now.Society will now have to deal with this miscreant. I'm sure he could of used a good whipping when he was younger.

[Tom]

After they cut him loose, I hope the kick the snot out of him.

[GaryG]

A couple of years ago vandals stole a large flag from a private business during the July 4 parade. The police had no suspects but a few citizens thought they knew who did it. A few days later three teenagers walked into the police station looking beat up and very much the worse for wear. They said they wanted to confess to "clear their conscience", that they had not been "persuaded". They got community service, but they won't do it again.

[boxcar]

They got community service, but they won't do it again.

God forbid it was through ACORN.

Boxcar

[Java Gold@TFT]

A little update from today:

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=846766

Looks like the kid in question admitted what he did and accepted his punishment voluntarily. No charges have been filed on either side and the president of the VFW post is willing to let the story die a quick death knowing that this guy will think twice about doing something so stupid again.

[prospector]

he got off easy

[mountainman]

So binding and humiliating somebody is an appropriate course of action if the offending party disrespects the national symbol ? How sickening for such conduct to be applauded in the name of patriotism. True, the kid had no right to destroy property and deserved to be arrested, but here is a news flash for the proud americans who degraded him. Our flag STANDS for the right to desecrate and disrespect it. When we are required to honor it, the american flag forfeits much of its power. There are numerous countries that would GLEEFULLY impose draconian punishment for flag desecration. Those aren't places I'd want to live. You can't have it both ways boys. The unique freedoms that fill us with pride of necessity include the sacred right to dishonor our flag.

[illinoisbred]

So binding and humiliating somebody is an appropriate course of action if the offending party disrespects the national symbol ? How sickening for such conduct to be applauded in the name of patriotism. True, the kid had no right to destroy property and deserved to be arrested, but here is a news flash for the proud americans who degraded him. Our flag STANDS for the right to desecrate and disrespect it. When we are required to honor it, the american flag forfeits much of its power. There are numerous countries that would GLEEFULLY impose draconian punishment for flag desecration. Those aren't places I'd want to live. You can't have it both ways boys. The unique freedoms that fill us with pride of necessity include the sacred right to dishonor our flag.
Of course you can burn the flag,if you so choose.This kid's behaivor is drastic considering he was just denied a beer or pack of smokes,he wasn't forced to enlist and be sent off to a war he might not support.My negative reaction is due to the wanton,senseless destruction of private property. It would be the same if the kid just knocked over a flower pot on the way out,-senseless.

[mountainman]

It would be the same if the kid just knocked over a flower pot on the way out,-senseless.

Let's get real. Do you REALLY think those yahoos would have bound and humiliated the guy for knocking over a FLOWER POT? What set them off was flag desecration, not destruction of private property.

[GaryG]

Let's get real. Do you REALLY think those yahoos would have bound and humiliated the guy for knocking over a FLOWER POT? What set them off was flag desecration, not destruction of private property.Depends what they had in the flower pot.

[illinoisbred]

Let's get real. Do you REALLY think those yahoos would have bound and humiliated the guy for knocking over a FLOWER POT? What set them off was flag desecration, not destruction of private property.
They gave the kid a choice.He did 1 smart thing-a little duct tape was better than police involvement.

[illinoisbred]

I forgot to address you question regarding the vets "treatment".I would venture a guess that they reacted just the same as probably 95% of vets of WW11 would have reacted.My Mother had 9 uncles who all volunteered after the Japs bombed us-if I did what this kid did my punishment would have been more severe.

[hazzardm]

Let's get real. Do you REALLY think those yahoos would have bound and humiliated the guy for knocking over a FLOWER POT? What set them off was flag desecration, not destruction of private property.


I think the above is a bad assumption. Suppose this was a country club and some as***le started pissin in the pool from the side. I would expect/hope that similar punishment would be applied.

Probelm is most punks like this don't respect others property. This was now does :)

[mountainman]

They gave the kid a choice.He did 1 smart thing-a little duct tape was better than police involvement.

Flag burning can't possibly justify this form of vigilantism. Whether the culprit volunteered or not, what they subjected him to was sick, twisted and probably illegal. In getting their patriotic jollies, these vets brought far more shame to our flag than the act of burning it did.

[illinoisbred]

Flag burning can't possibly justify this form of vigilantism. Whether the culprit volunteered or not, what they subjected him to was sick, twisted and probably illegal. In getting their patriotic jollies, these vets brought far more shame to our flag than the act of burning it did.
I really don't think you can hold these vets to the same politically-correct behaivor that you would hold yourself and probably myself to.They are from a different time/era and unless you are a vet of some patriotic foriegn war, you and I can never really understand the poignancy the flag holds to these men.

[Show Me the Wire]

Alcohol usually transforms questionable ideas inot brillant ideas.

[Warren Henry]

When the vets confronted the perp, they gave him a choice. Public humiliation or we call the cops. He obviously thought that the public humiliation was a better option for him. It isn't like a mob dragged him back to the flag pole and tied him up against his will.

He acted inappropriately and chose to participate in a teaching event rather than be subjected to whatever the cops and courts would have given him. He admitted that what he did was wrong, and that the punishment fit the crime. He made a choice and he ends up with no record.

I applaud the vets for handling the event much better than I would have.

[mountainman]

I really don't think you can hold these vets to the same politically-correct behaivor that you would hold yourself and probably myself to.They are from a different time/era and unless you are a vet of some patriotic foriegn war, you and I can never really understand the poignancy the flag holds to these men.

They should better respect the freedoms they fought to preserve. Public humiliation may be customary in other regions, but has no place in america. Since the incident has (presumably) been widely reported, you tell ME which action has more dishonored our flag? Setting fire to it? Or binding and humiliating a person in its name?

[illinoisbred]

Tell the kid to take the vets to court.Any judge, particularly if he/she is over 50 will slap the vets hands and at the same time wink-way to go!

[mountainman]

When the vets confronted the perp, they gave him a choice. Public humiliation or we call the cops. He obviously thought that the public humiliation was a better option for him. It isn't like a mob dragged him back to the flag pole and tied him up against his will.

He acted inappropriately and chose to participate in a teaching event rather than be subjected to whatever the cops and courts would have given him. He admitted that what he did was wrong, and that the punishment fit the crime. He made a choice and he ends up with no record.

I applaud the vets for handling the event much better than I would have.

So physical restraints and embarrassment are acceptable ways to teach? I can only hope that the faculty at my 14-yr-old's school don't share your sentiments.

[illinoisbred]

They should better respect the freedoms they fought to preserve. Public humiliation may be customary in other regions, but has no place in america. Since the incident has (presumably) been widely reported, you tell ME which action has more dishonored our flag? Setting fire to it? Or binding and humiliating a person in its name?
Setting fire to it. In the long-run if we continue to condone vandalism and the idiots that commit it,we won't enjoy a lot of the freedom we have today.It may come to the point we won't freely and safely be able to leave home,drive a car,go to work. We'll always have to be looking over our shoulder at every passerby.Hell, we probably won't be able to live freely/safely in our own homes.Our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness could be jeopardized. This was a small price/inconvenience for this youth to pay.

[mountainman]

Setting fire to it.

I must respectfully disagree.

[illinoisbred]

I must respectfully disagree.
And that's ok here in the land of the free. I respect your opinion and reasons.Again,I don't feel the vets went overboard-they easily could have.

[Show Me the Wire]

My prior post w/o typo.

Alcohol usually transforms questionable ideas into brillant ideas.

The particiapnts had no right to give the yut (cousin vinny) a choice. They had the right to physically detain him until the authorities arrived and defend themselves ;)

[illinoisbred]

My prior post w/o typo.

Alcohol usually transforms questionable ideas into brillant ideas.

The particiapnts had no right to give the yut (cousin vinny) a choice. They had the right to physically detain him until the authorities arrived and defend themselves ;)
Fred DeWayne[Herman Munster],funny film,funny scene.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Mark, this is a local story for me so I know more than some others. This is not about someone burning a flag in protest of the US government - this is about a 21 yo kid who was drunk and couldn't get served a beer and in a fit of stupidity and drunkeness did something stupid. He was asked to leave but didn't (trespassing), cut down the flag out front (vandalism), could also easily have been charged with public intoxication and disorderly conduct. That's at least 4 counts that COULD have been brought against him if the VFW president decided to call the police but he didn't. The incident happened on a friday night. The kid's uncle was a member of the Post and he was contacted about the incident. The kid was then given the options outlined and on Sunday showed up on his own for what he had coming to him. There was no vigilantism, no kidnapping, no unlawful imprisonment, no abuse involved or physical harm in any way. He was barely tied to the chair and only the chair was duct taped to the flag pole. He sufferred nothing more than some time for thought and some humiliation. His option was to face 2 felony and 2 misdemeanor counts. If he thought what he did was right then he could have gone to jail and hired a lawyer to get him off but he didn't once he was sober.

To compare that situation to a school teacher who spanks a 5yo in school without permission is just completely missing, as Paul Harvey said, "The rest of the story".

[mountainman]

Mark, this is a local story for me so I know more than some others. This is not about someone burning a flag in protest of the US government - this is about a 21 yo kid who was drunk and couldn't get served a beer and in a fit of stupidity and drunkeness did something stupid. He was asked to leave but didn't (trespassing), cut down the flag out front (vandalism), could also easily have been charged with public intoxication and disorderly conduct. That's at least 4 counts that COULD have been brought against him if the VFW president decided to call the police but he didn't. The incident happened on a friday night. The kid's uncle was a member of the Post and he was contacted about the incident. The kid was then given the options outlined and on Sunday showed up on his own for what he had coming to him. There was no vigilantism, no kidnapping, no unlawful imprisonment, no abuse involved or physical harm in any way. He was barely tied to the chair and only the chair was duct taped to the flag pole. He sufferred nothing more than some time for thought and some humiliation. His option was to face 2 felony and 2 misdemeanor counts. If he thought what he did was right then he could have gone to jail and hired a lawyer to get him off but he didn't once he was sober.

To compare that situation to a school teacher who spanks a 5yo in school without permission is just completely missing, as Paul Harvey said, "The rest of the story".
So any citzen now has the legal and moral right to offer alternative punishment of his own invention? And as long as the perpetrator considers it preferable to jail, that makes it ok? With all respect java, you have got to be kidding. What if the kid had committed rape and accepted castration as an alternative to criminal charges? Granted, an extreme example of vigilantism, but you tell me, where is the line drawn? The bottom line is, consensual or not, what was done to this kid is far more troublesome(and unamerican) than whatever wrongs he committed. These vets brought shame and dishonor to the very symbol they once defended. Public binding and degradation may be acceptable in terrorist states, but not here. Not in america.

[Warren Henry]

So any citzen now has the legal and moral right to offer alternative punishment of his own invention? And as long as the perpetrator considers it preferable to jail, that makes it ok? With all respect java, you have got to be kidding. What if the kid had committed rape and accepted castration as an alternative to criminal charges? Granted, an extreme example of vigilantism, but you tell me, where is the line drawn? The bottom line is, consensual or not, what was done to this kid is far more troublesome(and unamerican) than whatever wrongs he committed. These vets brought shame and dishonor to the very symbol they once defended. Public binding and degradation may be acceptable in terrorist states, but not here. Not in america.
So, a kid you know - the nephew of a friend does something stupid while drunk (stupid in itself). What do you do,

1. call the cops and see to it that he gets a felony conviction which screws up his life from then on?.
2. just forget it - which provides no incentive to the kid to learn from his mistakes?
3. ask him if he is willing to sit in front of the post wearing a "I am stupid" sign?
4. insert your suggestion here.

Somewhere recently, I saw a picture of a mother who MADE her son wear a sign stating that he was a thief after he shoplifted something from a store.

The vets did not make the kid do anything. They merely suggested a way for him to do "community service" as a penalty for the stupid acts he committed.

I personally think that the vets were very compassionate.

[Tom]

They should have stomped his arse into the ground.

[mountainman]

They should have stomped his arse into the ground.

Which would have been FAR more american than binding and humiliating him.

[mountainman]

I personally think that the vets were very compassionate.

Yes, and the duct tape was a particularly compassionate twist.

[mountainman]

4. insert your suggestion here.



4. Would not involve binding and public degradation.

[Tom]

Which would have been FAR more american than binding and humiliating him.

No, I meant after they cut him loose! ;)

[mountainman]

So, a kid you know - the nephew of a friend does something stupid while drunk (stupid in itself). What do you do,

1. call the cops and see to it that he gets a felony conviction which screws up his life from then on?.


From what I've heard here and know of our judicial system, it is HIGHLY doubtful that a felony conviction would have ensued. So you can forget that as justification for this reprehensible act.

[JustRalph]

So physical restraints and embarrassment are acceptable ways to teach? I can only hope that the faculty at my 14-yr-old's school don't share your sentiments.

They worked at my School. They used to hit us with Boards that were made in the wood shop. They called it getting "Swats" and they posted a list at the end of every week of all those miscreants that got a swat.

It hurt like hell when the 6'2 Principal whacked your ass.

It looked just like this one. And it gave you a case of the red ass for a week.

http://www.rubyredd.net/enforcer.JPG

[mountainman]

2. just forget it - which provides no incentive to the kid to learn from his mistakes?


Anybody who binds and degrades my son is in for a learning experience when I get there. The 'teachers' can count on that.

[Quagmire]

This was a 21 YO that burned their flag. Why didn't they sign him up and ship him off to boot camp?

[dartman51]

The ONLY answer to this situation, is they should have called the police from the start. The only reason they didn't was because his uncle was a member. The "VETS" decided to take matters into their own hands. When this happens, they almost always go wrong, in some way or another. REMEMBER, if this was ABU GHRAIB or GUANTANAMO, these "VETS" would be brought up on "TORTURE" charges. ALWAYS call the police and take yourself out of a posible BAD situation. Just my opinion.

[PaceAdvantage]

Anybody who binds and degrades my son is in for a learning experience when I get there. The 'teachers' can count on that.Whoa...whoa...whoa!!! You'd be guilty of exactly what you bemoan these VFW fellas of doing if I'm reading you right...taking the law into your own hands...

How very un-American of you!

You should simply call the police, remember?

[ddog]

How about addressing the original problem with the man?

Nah, we go off on some wild parenting track.

Was he NOT drunk , at least enough to not be served?

Maybe the flag would still be flying over the land if the man understood that when you drink to excess you do dumb things???

I am curious if he left and drove away would the vets have handled that as well?

After all a flag can come down to drape a coffin, right?

Maybe some education should be attempted, unless of course the drunk part is just the good old VFW way? :bang:

[mountainman]

Whoa...whoa...whoa!!! You'd be guilty of exactly what you bemoan these VFW fellas of doing if I'm reading you right...taking the law into your own hands...

How very un-American of you!

You should simply call the police, remember?
Whoa yourself. Whoa!!! If these vets BROKE no law, how could I be 'taking it into my own hands??' Or are you conceding that what they did was unlawful? Come to think of it, you may have a point. Just because they intimidated the kid into accepting restraint doesn't make it lawful. And there could be an element of blackmail as well in their police threat.

[PaceAdvantage]

Whoa yourself. Whoa!!! If these vets BROKE no law, how could I be 'taking it into my own hands??' Or are you conceding that what they did was unlawful? Come to think of it, you may have a point. Just because they intimidated the kid into accepting restraint doesn't make it lawful. And there could be an element of blackmail as well in their police threat.I'm sorry. I don't recall making a prior comment about these vets or this flag burner or whatever the hell else happened out there, mainly because the story does not hold any interest for me...

Unfortunately though, my duty requires me to read every thread, and your comments about what you might or might not do if someone ever disciplined your child like that struck me as a bit odd, considering your prior comments about others who take the law into their own hands.

Perhaps I read you wrong. If so, I apologize.

[Java Gold@TFT]

If I see my 160 year old niece in a store and I watch her shoplift something and put it in her bag - what are my obligations? Is it taking the law into my own hands if I don't report it to the police or security and instead threaten to tell her mother who will undoubtedly find a suitable punishment? Knowing her parents I wouldn't be surprised if the girl was made to where a t-shirt to the mall that said she was a shoplifter. I suppose it would be my civic duty to use our current criminal justice system. Wait until after the crime has been committed. Notify the security gaurd. Have her arrested and have to call her mother to pick her up with the police standing by her side. Have her go to court to plea guilty. Get some type of fine and be banned from the mall. Get punished by her parents anyway. Or I could just stop her and tell her to put it back and tell her mother herself what happened. I'll take choice #2 every day.

How do you feel about judges who make DUI convicts where special shirts while they clean roadsides as part of community service? Is that not public humiliation? Is forced labor somehting you condone too? Personally I have no problem bypassing our current screwed up criminal justice system. When lawyers can waste so much time and money trying to free previously convicted criminals it seeems like a bigger waste of time and money to prosecute this kid instead of taking care of it yourself when it is minor.

[mountainman]

I'm sorry. I don't recall making a prior comment about these vets or this flag burner or whatever the hell else happened out there, mainly because the story does not hold any interest for me...

Unfortunately though, my duty requires me to read every thread, and your comments about what you might or might not do if someone ever disciplined your child like that struck me as a bit odd, considering your prior comments about others who take the law into their own hands.

Perhaps I read you wrong. If so, I apologize.

Sorry sir. You can't take a swing yet remain above the fray. And your duties here don't seem relevant. You aren't required to POST on every thread, are you? And you can't accuse me of theoretically taking the law into my own hands unless these vets BROKE some law. Again, you can't have it both ways. Incidentally sir, 'discipline' strikes ME as an odd word when applied to binding and public degradation. Bur perhaps I read YOU wrong. If so, allow ME to apologize.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry sir. You can't take a swing yet remain above the fray. And your duties here don't seem relevant. You aren't required to POST on every thread, are you? And you can't accuse me of theoretically taking the law into my own hands unless these vets BROKE some law. Again, you can't have it both ways. Incidentally sir, 'discipline' strikes ME as an odd word when applied to binding and public degradation. Bur perhaps I read YOU wrong. If so, allow ME to apologize.I get it now. No further explanation is necessary.

Incidentally, I didn't realize you were making the rules as to when and where I can post on my own board. Thanks for setting me straight on who to consult next time I find the urge to stike that reply button.

[mountainman]

How do you feel about judges who make DUI convicts where special shirts while they clean roadsides as part of community service? Is that not public humiliation?

With all respect sir, you can't possibly equate a judicially imposed sentence of labor with private citizens resorting to duct tape.

[Tom]

They should have water boarded him! :D

[mountainman]

I get it now. No further explanation is necessary.

Incidentally, I didn't realize you were making the rules as to when and where I can post on my own board. Thanks for setting me straight on who to consult next time I find the urge to stike that reply button.

You're the one who characterized your post as some sort of duty, and who has (twice) alluded to your authority here in the course of our brief exchange. I don't care if you own half the planet. When you call me out, you can expect a retort. Or is THAT against some rule I'm unaware of? If so, thanks for setting ME straight.

[PaceAdvantage]

You're the one who characterized your post as some sort of duty,No, I characterized having to READ every post as a duty. Never said anything about any duty to reply. I would characterize my replies as good old fashioned free will..When you call me out, you can expect a retort.But I already told you that "I get it." Was that not enough?Or is THAT against some rule I'm unaware of? Funny, I don't recall this line of questioning when I happened to reply to one of your posts telling you I thought you had written a very nice article in Horseplayer magazine

[mountainman]

No, I characterized having to READ every post as a duty. Never said anything about any duty to reply. I would characterize my replies as good old fashioned free will..But I already told you that "I get it." Was that not enough?Funny, I don't recall this line of questioning when I happened to reply to one of your posts telling you I thought you had written a very nice article in Horseplayer magazine

This disagreement notwithstanding, I respect you and how you run this forum. It's the finest racing site there is. Bar none. In fact, I've given pace a few well-reserved plugs on our show. And I appreciate having the privilege to post here. Please excuse me if I've offended you. I realized my position on this thread would spark animated debate and put me in the minority, a position I sometimes relish too much. Again, no offense intended sir.

[PaceAdvantage]

No need to apologize, I value your contributions here and always have, be they on racing or anything else.

My fault sometimes lies in me always having to jump into the fire when I see smoke. It's a habit I've been trying to break for the past ten years, but as you can see, I'm not quite there yet...:lol:

[ezrabrooks]

With all respect sir, you can't possibly equate a judicially imposed sentence of labor with private citizens resorting to duct tape.

Anson, Texas. Apprehended under age drinkers are required to wear a sandwich sign board, stating their offense, and parade around the Court House on the Town Square for an afternoon as punishment.

Ez

[Show Me the Wire]

Whoa yourself. Whoa!!! If these vets BROKE no law, how could I be 'taking it into my own hands??' Or are you conceding that what they did was unlawful? Come to think of it, you may have a point. Just because they intimidated the kid into accepting restraint doesn't make it lawful. And there could be an element of blackmail as well in their police threat.


Actually, what the vets did was not unlawfull. It was a consensual act that did not cause physical harm to the participant.

Also, as it was a crime related to VFW property, not against a third party person .i.e. rape, the VFW has the right not to report the crime or decline to file charges.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Mark, if you are still reading this thread I wondered what your reaction to this would be.

No court system, no conviction, no representation, just public humiliation at the hands of politicians. And no it's not the vigilante police officers doing this, it is the city putting up the sign based on an arrest of a person innocent until proven guilty and those innocent people aren't being humiliated by their own choice.

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=848669

Drop your trousers on Central Avenue and you might see your name in lights -- but probably not the way your mother always hoped.



In an effort to battle quality of life crimes on the bustling commercial strip -- specifically out-of-town johns looking for a romp with Albany prostitutes -- the police department has erected the electronic sign and pledged to post the names of those arrested.
The goal, police say, is to not have to post any names. None have appeared since the sign went up after a Sept. 16 prostitution sting that netted six arrests.

"If someone's arrested, it's a public record. ... We put that out through the media on a regular basis," said Detective James Miller, a police spokesman. "We haven't had the opportunity to put anybody up there at this point, which is a positive."

But not everyone views the sign as a leap forward in modern criminal justice techniques.

What's more, Shanks said, the technique may pose legal problems if the police are intent on posting the names upon arrest, when in the eyes of law the defendants are still considered innocent.

"They may very well be subjecting the city to liability," Shanks said. "If you arrest someone and it's a mistake or the person is acquitted or the charges are dropped later...''

"I suppose that you could argue that lashing people in the town square, as the Taliban do," is also a deterrent, Shanks said, "but I don't think we want to move in that direction."