Breeders Cup topic/forum?

[WinterTriangle]

I see the one for Triple Crown.

I know it's only 2 days, but do ya'll do a breeders cup topic or does all that just go into different topics people post in General and Handicapping?

[PaceAdvantage]

Tradition states that I do put up special BC forums...thanks for reminding me!!

[joanied]

OH, good:jump: And hope all BC discussions take place there so we don't have BC threads/posts all over the place:)

Thanks, PA:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Now up.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/index.php?

[joanied]

:jump: Thank You, PA :jump:

[joanied]

:confused: dated 2008....:(

[bisket]

i say we don't have any threads in the breeders cup forum that says......... is the best horse ever
:D

[joanied]

i say we don't have any threads in the breeders cup forum that says......... is the best horse ever
:D

I'll second:ThmbUp: that notion :) ...now, we'll have to get somethin' started over there...you first;) :D

[FenceBored]

I'll second:ThmbUp: that notion :) ...now, we'll have to get somethin' started over there...you first;) :D

Been there, done that. :faint: Now, I'm tired and have to rest.

[OntheRail]

i say we don't have any threads in the breeders cup forum that says......... is the best horse ever
:D
Wait... Wait... I have to say...

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:faint: :D

[Java Gold@TFT]

i say we don't have any threads in the breeders cup forum that says......... is the best horse ever
:D
Darn, I was just planning my post for tomorrow about Secretariat being the greatest BC winner ever,or maybe Citation, or maybe Affirmed or maybe I think I'm Brett Favre and can't make up my mind. (Did any of them win a BC race?, just curious)

(or you can just ignore that and I will try to post somehting real in the other forum group.)

[joanied]

Darn, I was just planning my post for tomorrow about Secretariat being the greatest BC winner ever,or maybe Citation, or maybe Affirmed or maybe I think I'm Brett Favre and can't make up my mind. (Did any of them win a BC race?, just curious)

(or you can just ignore that and I will try to post somehting real in the other forum group.)

:lol: ...it was Bret Farve that was the greatest BC winner...couldn't decide which race, so ran in them all:lol:

[tucker6]

Darn, I was just planning my post for tomorrow about Secretariat being the greatest BC winner ever,or maybe Citation, or maybe Affirmed or maybe I think I'm Brett Favre and can't make up my mind. (Did any of them win a BC race?, just curious)

(or you can just ignore that and I will try to post somehting real in the other forum group.)
Well according to some, they must be BC winners, as only HOY winners win the BC. That's why RA can't become HOY. :(

Note: I know Sec and Cy never had a chance to race in the BC, although isn't the marlboro Cup the forerunner of the BC?

[FenceBored]

Well according to some, they must be BC winners, as only HOY winners win the BC. That's why RA can't become HOY. :(

Note: I know Sec and Cy never had a chance to race in the BC, although isn't the marlboro Cup the forerunner of the BC?

NO, the Marlboro Cup started out as a match race betwe.......

[Java Gold@TFT]

Well according to some, they must be BC winners, as only HOY winners win the BC. That's why RA can't become HOY. :(

Note: I know Sec and Cy never had a chance to race in the BC, although isn't the marlboro Cup the forerunner of the BC?
Not to get way off the topic but after Java Gold won the Marlboro Cup in 1987 Phillip Morris dropped sponsorship and the race was allowed to die as the newly instituted BC was screwing up traditional fall races and wreaking havoc on fileds everywhere. In 1988 NYRA created the NYRA Mile as a replacement and placed it later in the calendar. That race was later renamed the Cigar Mile. So, even though there isn't an exact straight line the Cigar Mile is really the current Marlboro Cup. Of course that's besides the fact that there really aren't real handicaps or real invitaionals left anymore.

[tucker6]

Not to get way off the topic but after Java Gold won the Marlboro Cup in 1987 Phillip Morris dropped sponsorship and the race was allowed to die as the newly instituted BC was screwing up traditional fall races and wreaking havoc on fileds everywhere. In 1988 NYRA created the NYRA Mile as a replacement and placed it later in the calendar. That race was later renamed the Cigar Mile. So, even though there isn't an exact straight line the Cigar Mile is really the current Marlboro Cup. Of course that's besides the fact that there really aren't real handicaps or real invitaionals left anymore.
you know, I've noticed that since the 70's, a lot of races have gotten shorter. I can't think of one that got longer. Can you??

[bisket]

speed figs don't help you get the winner at 1 1/2 mile and longer. now at 1 1/8 mile they're great help. you can thank lucas ;) baffert and alot of the trainers in california for this development (races getting shorter). i think lucas :p is probably the worst thing to happen to the game in the past 20 years. it only took the horseman and stables in california a little to long to figure this out.

[Java Gold@TFT]

you know, I've noticed that since the 70's, a lot of races have gotten shorter. I can't think of one that got longer. Can you??
All of the 2yo races have gotten longer. In NY the natural progression started with the Sanford at 6F and the progrssion went 6.5F, 7F, 1M, 1 1/16th. Now it goes 6F, 7F, 1M and then BC Juvy with a possible return to the Remsen at 9F. The Hopeful was the first time any 2yo ran 6.5F during the year. Now they run 7F 2yo mdn races on the dirt and 1M and 8.5F mdn races on the turf.

All of the races for mature horses have been shortened. Almost all of it can be blamed on the BC directly. Horses coming out of the 12F JCGC weren't doing well backing up to the BC Classic at 10F so NYRA was basically forced to shorten the JCGC to make it a better prep instead of a standalone race. And that's after the already backed it down from the 2 mile distance of the late 60's.

[bisket]

that is backwards. the 2 year old races shouldn't be any longer than a mile. they aren't ready to go that long, and alot of these races are meaningless now. most of your legitimate routers wait until november and december to start their careers. you can look it up. the derby winner is most likely working towards their first race right now; not racing in these stakes.

[tucker6]

All of the races for mature horses have been shortened. Almost all of it can be blamed on the BC directly. Horses coming out of the 12F JCGC weren't doing well backing up to the BC Classic at 10F so NYRA was basically forced to shorten the JCGC to make it a better prep instead of a standalone race. And that's after the already backed it down from the 2 mile distance of the late 60's.
That philosophy really hurts a stayer like Summer Bird. He's just hitting stride at 9F to 10F. He's a monster at 12F any day of the week. Any chance he runs in the polycrap BC Marathon??

[tucker6]

Almost all of it can be blamed on the BC directly. Horses coming out of the 12F JCGC weren't doing well backing up to the BC Classic at 10F so NYRA was basically forced to shorten the JCGC to make it a better prep instead of a standalone race.
One last thought. In reality, isn't that a trainer issue, and not a race distance issue??

[bisket]

That philosophy really hurts a stayer like Summer Bird. He's just hitting stride at 9F to 10F. He's a monster at 12F any day of the week. Any chance he runs in the polycrap BC Marathon??
it actually makes him a better bet going 10 furs in the classic. incidentally one of the reason california went with poly was to break the endless love of speed. to actually get trainers and horseman to introduce more stamina to the breed. which is why theres so much of a backlash

[tucker6]

incidentally one of the reason california went with poly was to break the endless love of speed. to actually get trainers and horseman to introduce more stamina to the breed. which is why theres so much of a backlash
Bisket,

I have no idea of the validity of that statement, but it is an intriguing thought. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to subsidize larger payouts for longer races to get horseman to breed for stamina?? Since poly mimics grass, has the theory actually worked?? It appears not to have done so.

Tom

[Java Gold@TFT]

One last thought. In reality, isn't that a trainer issue, and not a race distance issue??
Everything is a trainer issue. They see something and think it is a pattern and try to follow it. The JCGC was backed up because trainers thought they saw a pattern. Horse who made the natural distance progression in the Fall Belmont meet ended up having to back up in the BC. Woodward - Marlboro Cup and then JCGC ended up with 2 shortened (or eliminated) and the Woodward being moved so far back in the calendar that it is at Saratoga now.

Look at what has happened to the "prep race" philosophy that surrounds the KY Derby. The Derby preps in Florida and Louisianna have already been announced with date and distances changed. The Fountain of Youth is now at the same 9F distance as the Fla Derby and they are spaced in a manner that horses don't need to stay in Fla for both if they think they can pick up graded earnings in Ill or KY without facing a horse they have already lost to.

With 2yo's everything is even more geared to BC. Hell, in 1976 Seattle Slew was 3yo champion off of 3 races - mdn, allw and Champagne. Now, how many 2yo's have been named champion without winning the BC in the last 10 years? The 2yo champion has become a one race title so every trainer wants to have his horse progress at the right time. Times have changed dramatically. Look up Affirmed's 2yo pp's. I don't have it in front of me but he raced against Alydar in mid july at Belmont, then Saratoga the first week of August, then flew out to California to race at Hollywood 2wweks later and then back to face Alydar again in the Hopeful at Saratoga 2 weeks after that. That's 4 races at 3 tracks on both coasts of the country in 6 or 7 weeks and Affirmed isn't even considered ancient history compared to some of the racing Citation did. The BC has changed it all. It's not all just the breed for speed argument IMO.

[tucker6]

Everything is a trainer issue. They see something and think it is a pattern and try to follow it. The JCGC was backed up because trainers thought they saw a pattern. Horse who made the natural distance progression in the Fall Belmont meet ended up having to back up in the BC. Woodward - Marlboro Cup and then JCGC ended up with 2 shortened (or eliminated) and the Woodward being moved so far back in the calendar that it is at Saratoga now.

Look at what has happened to the "prep race" philosophy that surrounds the KY Derby. The Derby preps in Florida and Louisianna have already been announced with date and distances changed. The Fountain of Youth is now at the same 9F distance as the Fla Derby and they are spaced in a manner that horses don't need to stay in Fla for both if they think they can pick up graded earnings in Ill or KY without facing a horse they have already lost to.

With 2yo's everything is even more geared to BC. Hell, in 1976 Seattle Slew was 3yo champion off of 3 races - mdn, allw and Champagne. Now, how many 2yo's have been named champion without winning the BC in the last 10 years? The 2yo champion has become a one race title so every trainer wants to have his horse progress at the right time. Times have changed dramatically. Look up Affirmed's 2yo pp's. I don't have it in front of me but he raced against Alydar in mid july at Belmont, then Saratoga the first week of August, then flew out to California to race at Hollywood 2wweks later and then back to face Alydar again in the Hopeful at Saratoga 2 weeks after that. That's 4 races at 3 tracks on both coasts of the country in 6 or 7 weeks and Affirmed isn't even considered ancient history compared to some of the racing Citation did. The BC has changed it all. It's not all just the breed for speed argument IMO.
That's a scary post Java. It tells me that the BC has skewed the sport too far in one direction. I remember, like you, when racing for a 2 year old started in July. Now we're lucky if they race as a 2 year old. Maybe what we need are maverick owners who will race to the beat of their own drummer, and not that of the BC. If we get enough champions in that direction, things will change. As you said, trainers are like lemmings. (you didn't say it, but that's what I read ;) )

[bisket]

Bisket,

I have no idea of the validity of that statement, but it is an intriguing thought. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to subsidize larger payouts for longer races to get horseman to breed for stamina?? Since poly mimics grass, has the theory actually worked?? It appears not to have done so.

Tom
larger payouts may have worked for the stakes horses, but then all the allowance and claimers would still be speed freaks. the idea was that the claimers and allowance types were the BIG problem. not so much the stakes quality horses.
oh yes its worked the problem is there aren't enough stamina type horses to fill the void. poly favoring stamina was part of the equation. your stamina types are usually the horses who are larger and not as prone to injury. the problem is the majority of horses are still speed freaks trying to change their colors.
my main argument with the proponents of poly is they are selling it as an alternative to dirt. thats not true at all, but the surface may have a place. just stop trying to tell everyone its the same as dirt!!

[bisket]

Everything is a trainer issue. They see something and think it is a pattern and try to follow it. The JCGC was backed up because trainers thought they saw a pattern. Horse who made the natural distance progression in the Fall Belmont meet ended up having to back up in the BC. Woodward - Marlboro Cup and then JCGC ended up with 2 shortened (or eliminated) and the Woodward being moved so far back in the calendar that it is at Saratoga now.

Look at what has happened to the "prep race" philosophy that surrounds the KY Derby. The Derby preps in Florida and Louisianna have already been announced with date and distances changed. The Fountain of Youth is now at the same 9F distance as the Fla Derby and they are spaced in a manner that horses don't need to stay in Fla for both if they think they can pick up graded earnings in Ill or KY without facing a horse they have already lost to.

With 2yo's everything is even more geared to BC. Hell, in 1976 Seattle Slew was 3yo champion off of 3 races - mdn, allw and Champagne. Now, how many 2yo's have been named champion without winning the BC in the last 10 years? The 2yo champion has become a one race title so every trainer wants to have his horse progress at the right time. Times have changed dramatically. Look up Affirmed's 2yo pp's. I don't have it in front of me but he raced against Alydar in mid july at Belmont, then Saratoga the first week of August, then flew out to California to race at Hollywood 2wweks later and then back to face Alydar again in the Hopeful at Saratoga 2 weeks after that. That's 4 races at 3 tracks on both coasts of the country in 6 or 7 weeks and Affirmed isn't even considered ancient history compared to some of the racing Citation did. The BC has changed it all. It's not all just the breed for speed argument IMO.
i agree. i don't think the cup has been positive to racing. now if the game would say winning the jcgc was just as important as winning the classic. then it'll be good for the game

[joanied]

That's a scary post Java. It tells me that the BC has skewed the sport too far in one direction. I remember, like you, when racing for a 2 year old started in July. Now we're lucky if they race as a 2 year old. Maybe what we need are maverick owners who will race to the beat of their own drummer, and not that of the BC. If we get enough champions in that direction, things will change. As you said, trainers are like lemmings. (you didn't say it, but that's what I read ;) )

Agreed...what you & Java Gold said...it is scary and it makes you wonder if it'll ever change back for the better.
Having the BC races put every trainer & owners sights on just one thing (basically)...the BC. It may be Championship day...but every Eclipse awrd should reflect the entire season...not just one (or two) races.

Tucker6, as far as maverick owners...we have one, at least...Jess Jackson...as long as he won't back down on his stance over the Procrap...he does beat his won drum:)

[Java Gold@TFT]

Just looked real quick and in the last 10 years the only 2yo's to win Eclipse awards without winning the BC are Declan's Moon and Chilluki. That's 2 out of 20. Anyone see a pattern here?

[joanied]

Just looked real quick and in the last 10 years the only 2yo's to win Eclipse awards without winning the BC are Declan's Moon and Chilluki. That's 2 out of 20. Anyone see a pattern here?

HUH...yes indeed...too many horses have been getting Eclipse awards off a BC race...which just ain't right...in fact, it's BS...why bother racing all year if all ya need is a BC win...
I'd like to find the time to look up all the Eclipse award winners from the last 10 years and see if this 'apattern' holds up across the board.
Very interesting, indeed.

[Bochall]

speed figs don't help you get the winner at 1 1/2 mile and longer. now at 1 1/8 mile they're great help. you can thank lucas ;) baffert and alot of the trainers in california for this development (races getting shorter). i think lucas :p is probably the worst thing to happen to the game in the past 20 years. it only took the horseman and stables in california a little to long to figure this out.Baffert and Lukas are former quarter horse guys. Ofcourse they like shorter races!

[FenceBored]

HUH...yes indeed...too many horses have been getting Eclipse awards off a BC race...which just ain't right...in fact, it's BS...why bother racing all year if all ya need is a BC win...
I'd like to find the time to look up all the Eclipse award winners from the last 10 years and see if this 'apattern' holds up across the board.
Very interesting, indeed.

Yeah, but are they getting the Eclipse off just their BC win, or is that simply the clincher? Now, looking at the full 25 year history, it does seem that some races have more winners getting the nearest equivalent Eclipse, but that could just mean that the best horse in the category also won the BC race that year. The Euros who win an Eclipse off that one race in the US are the counter-argument I suppose.

I've started threads under both the Day 1 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62180) and Day 2 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62181) forums with the numbers for individual races.

[joanied]

Yeah, but are they getting the Eclipse off just their BC win, or is that simply the clincher? Now, looking at the full 25 year history, it does seem that some races have more winners getting the nearest equivalent Eclipse, but that could just mean that the best horse in the category also won the BC race that year. The Euros who win an Eclipse off that one race in the US are the counter-argument I suppose.

I've started threads under both the Day 1 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62180) and Day 2 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62181) forums with the numbers for individual races.

Sometimes it's the clincher...sometimes not...but, I'll be interested in seeing your posts, fencebored.
Actually...all the BC stuff belongs over in that section anyway:)

[hazzardm]

JMHO, Mr Prospector (and buyers of his off-spring) have been the primary contributor to the migration towards shorter distances. If one were to compare the number of Grade 1/2 races at 7f or less today, I would expect it to be three-fold over just 15 years ago. Trainers can only train what the owners provide.