secretariat the greatest ever?

[bisket]

theres been some talk about secratariat and horses place in history. i think these two clips from espn's sports century will expain things. enjoy!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBTGvi1hWQ4&feature=related
the second segment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-KvaeuIIsw&feature=related

[joanied]

bisket: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:


Thanks:)

[46zilzal]

In 1973 he was voted Athlete of the Year over Ali who stated: "Well he had a better year."

One of these days I am going to figure out how to upload to You Tube and put on our feeding him peppermints at Claiborne.

[bisket]

you just witnessed perfection

[Space Monkey]

Its hard to imagine that we'll ever see a greater thoroughbred than Secretariat, or a better heavyweight than the early (pre ban) Ali.

[joanied]

you just witnessed perfection

Yep...and I still got the goosebumps to proove it:)

[Bruddah]

As a runner he was the Greatest. As a sire of Classic runners and winners he wasn't close to great. The truth is the truth.

[bisket]

broadmare sire :ThmbUp:

[boomman]

Was voted like the #21 top athlete of all time by ESPN (out of their top 100) and wasn't it Butkus who said later: "At least I got more votes than the horse"! :D

Brings to mind another great line from Butkus: In the mid 1960's, the KC Chiefs of the old AFL hosted the Bears of the NFL in an exhibition game and beat them something like 66-24 scoring 9 touchdowns in the process. In those days the Chiefs had a horse named Warpaint that ran all the way around the field at full speed every time the Chiefs scored a TD. So after the shellacking, Butkus goes up to Chiefs QB Len Dawson after the game and says to Lenny: "Well we didn't beat your team, but we damn near killed that horse"! :lol: (Disclaimer: The good news is that Warpaint went on to celebrate many more KC touchdowns over the years, even though he definitely needed a breather after that one!):sleeping:

Boomer

[Bruddah]

As a runner he was the Greatest. As a sire of Ky Derby runners and winners he wasn't close to great. The truth is the truth.

I went back and checked my db on his sire line from 1987 forward. Those runners able to trace their lineage back to him total 3. With only 1 hitting the board (4th) and 0 winners. I'll have to go back to my big db to see who that was.

[cj's dad]

[Quote]our feeding him peppermints at Claiborne.[Quote]

If you had to lift his tail, you were at the wrong end Doctor !!:lol:

[DanG]

I would give the nod to our original ‘big red, Man O ‘War for American racing.

Secretariats Triple Crown of 3 track records /each leg being more impressive and ending off the charts in NY has since set the bar out of reach for mortal 3yo’s. If I owned Citation however, I would argue until the bar closed my colt’s 3yo year was second to none.

Either way; nice 3 horse entry.
http://petticoatsandpistols.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/man_o_war.jpg

[Java Gold@TFT]

I went back and checked my db on his sire line from 1987 forward. Those runners able to trace their lineage back to him total 3. With only 1 hitting the board (4th) and 0 winners. I'll have to go back to my big db to see who that was.
I guess it depends on your definition of sire line. If you look at recent G-I winner D'Funnybone you will see Secretariat on the top side as a broodmare sire through D'Accord. He was also the sire of Weekend Surpise who gave us A. P. Indy and the recently deceased Summer Squall. As far as horses he directly sired - General Assembly still holds the 10F track record at Saratoga after 30 years, Risen Star was one of the best horses to not win the Triple Crown and little horses like Tinner's Way and Lady's Secret were no slouches. A great sire? probably not but it's not like he was shooting blanks either.

[bisket]

you'll see most of the best runners with him in their line on his broadmare side. don't forget charismatic. i know charismatic was injured, and never had an eye poppnig performance. he seemed to be the closest to secratariat in the respect that charismatic needed lots of works and a steady diet of racing to get him in top form. this is exactly what secratariat needed. his best performance came after running the first two legs of the triple crown. so it can be inferred unlike most horses who ran in the series secratariat improved in form as the series went on. he didn't regress at all in any of his triple crown races. thats something some of our present day runners could use a dose of. which brings us back to rachel; she's had an incredible season. consistancy is one of the main attributes for greatness, and rachel has been consistant at the highest level of the sport.

[bisket]

dan in a post on another thread i said its impossible to compare secratariat to man o war, war is the only horse i'd mention in the same breath with secratariat though. its just the affect that secratariat had on the fans in modern times that seperates the two in my opinion. its just a shame man o war came along before the 1930's or we would have a much better understanding of him today.

[tucker6]

As a sire of Classic runners and winners he wasn't close to great. The truth is the truth.
As a sire maybe. As a brood mare sire, he was great. His blood is what makes the Storm Cats and AP Indys what they are and who they throw. Give him his due on that account.

[tucker6]

I would give the nod to our original ‘big red, Man O ‘War for American racing.

Man O 'War suffered from the same illness as Zenyatta. Lack of faith from his owner. I will say that Man O 'War was great, but he was never able to show us how great.

[Imriledup]

A lot of Secretariat's lure as our all time greatest racehorse ever is a massive margin of victory in a grade 1 race. Secretariat would be still considered one of the best ever even if you take away his Belmont, but a 30+ margin of victory makes the Secretariat mystique that much stronger.

If a large margin of victory can make an already all time great horse into something of a national hero, why can't Rachel's large margins of victory do the same for her? I don't have any statistics in front of me, but i'd be willing to bet that not too many horses have won multiple grade 1 races by 15 lengths or more. Rachel 'did' her competition TWICE to the tunes of around 20 and yet, she still keeps taking flak from certain people.

[RXB]

The lure of his Belmont is not just the 31 lengths; it's the 2:24. Unreal. And earned after dueling head-to-head to 6f in 1:09 4/5 against the second-best 3YO in the country, who was quite a good horse.

[ghostyapper]

Man O 'War suffered from the same illness as Zenyatta. Lack of faith from his owner. I will say that Man O 'War was great, but he was never able to show us how great.

Anyone with a pair of eyes (reading) can already see how great he was. Not sure how you came to your conclusion. Is it soley based on skipping the derby?

[ghostyapper]

The lure of his Belmont is not just the 31 lengths; it's the 2:24. Unreal. And earned after dueling head-to-head to 6f in 1:09 4/5 against the second-best 3YO in the country, who was quite a good horse.

Don't mind him, he was just looking for a way to throw more roses at the feet of his rachel. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/51.gif

[Bruddah]

I guess it depends on your definition of sire line. If you look at recent G-I winner D'Funnybone you will see Secretariat on the top side as a broodmare sire through D'Accord. He was also the sire of Weekend Surpise who gave us A. P. Indy and the recently deceased Summer Squall. As far as horses he directly sired - General Assembly still holds the 10F track record at Saratoga after 30 years, Risen Star was one of the best horses to not win the Triple Crown and little horses like Tinner's Way and Lady's Secret were no slouches. A great sire? probably not but it's not like he was shooting blanks either.

Please read my posts carefully.
I didn't know D'Funnybone or Weekend Suprise ran in any of the Classics. Don't remember them hitting the board. I did find that the lone runner (entrant) hitting the board was Summer Squall, who I think finished 4th. General Assembly was entered but failed to hit the board. Risen Star was pre 1987.

Sorry, but he was a poor sire when it came to Classic runners and those hitting the board in those races.

[Cratos]

As a runner he was the Greatest. As a sire of Classic runners and winners he wasn't close to great. The truth is the truth.

You are correct, he wasn’t a Bold Ruler or a Man O’War on sheds row, but Risen Star and General Assembly was pretty good sons of Big Red.

Also what makes Secretariat great to me and the greatest that I have ever seen is the horses he won against and what he did when he won against them. For instance, against Riva Ridge and Cougar II in the 1973 Marlboro Cup he destroyed them in world record time.

And what make that effort so unique is that Seattle Slew, “a monster to be reckoned with” in his own right ran the same race in 1978 as an older horse and was timed two-fifths of a second slower. I realize that surface variant and wind might have had something to do with the difference, but it definitely put Big Red in a class perspective that one may never see again.

[QuarterCrack]

The lure of his Belmont is not just the 31 lengths; it's the 2:24. Unreal. And earned after dueling head-to-head to 6f in 1:09 4/5 against the second-best 3YO in the country, who was quite a good horse.

It is estimated that he would have received a 139 Beyer figure for the race, from what I've seen on the net.

I believe in the original "Picking Winners" (or was it "Beyer on Speed"?), Beyer said he had given Secretariat a 148.

Either way, the 2:24 was an insane performance.

To me, the most impressive thing about the splits is that they ran against a stiff headwind on the backstretch, if you notice the flag in the videos.

[RXB]

It was an astonishing performance.

The 139 is based on the current scale and would be the figure comparable to the numbers generated now. Beyer's original book said 148 but the numbers were different then.

[Paseana]

Please read my posts carefully.
I didn't know D'Funnybone or Weekend Suprise ran in any of the Classics. Don't remember them hitting the board. I did find that the lone runner (entrant) hitting the board was Summer Squall, who I think finished 4th. General Assembly was entered but failed to hit the board. Risen Star was pre 1987.

Sorry, but he was a poor sire when it came to Classic runners and those hitting the board in those races.

Risen Star was PRE-1987?

That's news to me. I thought his Classic wins were in 1988 against Winning Colors et al. Guess I'm looking at a different calendar! Nit-picking I suppose, but no moreso than your selection of the odd year of 1987 as your cut-off.

I agree with you.....Secretariat failed as a sire of Classic-types, particularly colts. He was unable to come close to reproducing himself on the track. But consider this:

Broodmare sire of A P Indy, underneath the line of his own sire, Bold Ruler
Broodmare sire of Storm Cat, underneath Northern Dancer
Broodmare sire of Gone West, underneath Mr. Prospector

His general inability to sire Classic runners or to create a tail-male sireline of significance becomes meaningless when considering what he's done as a broodmare sire. His genetic influence on the breed as we know it now will be felt for many equine generations to come.

[RXB]

Please read my posts carefully.
I did find that the lone runner (entrant) hitting the board was Summer Squall, who I think finished 4th.

2nd, not 4th. Then won the Preakness.

[RXB]

Also, Smarty Jones' pedigree includes Secretariat (via Gone West's broodmare).

I agree that he wasn't anything special as a sire, especially considering the high quality of the mares accorded to him. And pretty much a non-entity as a sire of sires. But he was an excellent broodmare sire.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not that anyone asked, but off the top of my head, Secretariat's Belmont and Seattle Slew's losing effort to Exceller in the '78 JCGC sit atop my list of the greatest individual performances ever (that I've seen, but not in person).

[lamboguy]

my favorite horse


http://www.hanknuwer.com/timelywriter

[JustRalph]

The lure of his Belmont is not just the 31 lengths; it's the 2:24. Unreal. And earned after dueling head-to-head to 6f in 1:09 4/5 against the second-best 3YO in the country, who was quite a good horse.

This post says it all........... good God.......off of 1:09 4/5's he comes up with that Belmont win......... I was just a kid..........but watching my Dad jump up and down meant a bunch.........and today I know why........

[bcgreg]

To all:

Here is Secretariat in the 1973 KY Derby:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RGPGVuMhmY


Here is the 1973 Preakness:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEOlWDz2KBw


And, arguably the greatest performance by a race horse ever, the 1973 Belmont. This a 10 minute video documentary with lots of extra footage, but I think it is worth viewing every minute:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHvR7K1btQ

Poor Sham...any other year and he would probably have won the Triple Crown.


Finally, here is a video of Secretariat in retirement, at age 12. Yes, he has a few extra pounds on him, but heck, he IS retired, LOL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57qMR45Y1o

What an incredible athlete!

I own a 2 YO great-grandson of Secretariat named Lacrosse Moon. He is from Malibu Moon on the AP Indy side of Secretariat. His picture is attached. I think he favors his great-grandaddy, but of course I am just a proud pappa, LOL.

Regards,
bcgreg

[tucker6]

This post says it all........... good God.......off of 1:09 4/5's he comes up with that Belmont win......... I was just a kid..........but watching my Dad jump up and down meant a bunch.........and today I know why........
as a three year old no less.

[Quagmire]

http://www.secretariat.com/races/manowar.htm

Big Red's Man O' War was the first time I ever went to the track as a kid. I still haven't seen any better.

[tucker6]

http://www.secretariat.com/races/manowar.htm

Big Red's Man O' War was the first time I ever went to the track as a kid. I still haven't seen any better.
He looked like he was breezing during his turf races. We'll never know if he would have held form in his 4th year, but he ended his career in top form. He toyed with champion older turf horses in those last two races. Turcotte said that he was a better turf horse than dirt horse. Hard to imagine, but the evidence is there.

One thing that I believe unique about Secretariat is that I do not recall him ever coming up lame after any practice or race. Can anyone verify that. Don't see that much anymore.

[Bruddah]

As a sire maybe. As a brood mare sire, he was great. His blood is what makes the Storm Cats and AP Indys what they are and who they throw. Give him his due on that account.

Tucker6, it's not the objective of my post to run down a truly Great Icon of American racing. The purpose of my post was to set the record straight on Secretariat's ability as a sire of Ky. Derby Classic winners. For whatever reasons the Truth is, he was not even close to being Great.

The truth is, his BOLD RULER line is under whelming as a Sire line of Classic starters since 1987.

Bold Ruler (53 yr. born) lineage since 1987 (yr. I started my db) has produced 37 Classic runners (entrants) through his son's. 37-0-1-2-2-2 (see below)

Bold Bidder (62)= 2 starters 0 finished 5th or better
What A Pleasure (65)= 3 starters 1 finished 5th
Dust Commander (67)= 1 starter 0 finished 5th or better
Irish Castle (67)= 4 starters 0 finished 5th or better
Secretariat (70)= 3 starters 1 showed
Seattle Slew (74)= 19 starters 0wins 1plc 1shw 2-4th 2-5th
Various others son's= 5 starters 0 finished 5th or better

Storm Cat as a sire of Classic runners and entrants is also a myth.
Storm Cat (83)= 8 starters 0wins 2plc 1shw 0-4th 0-5th

Facts is Facts.

[tucker6]

Tucker6, it's not the objective of my post to run down a truly Great Icon of American racing. The purpose of my post was to set the record straight on Secretariat's ability as a sire of Ky. Derby Classic winners. For whatever reasons the Truth is, he was not even close to being Great.

The truth is, his BOLD RULER line is under whelming as a Sire line of Classic starters since 1987.

Bold Ruler (53 yr. born) lineage since 1987 (yr. I started my db) has produced 37 Classic runners (entrants) through his son's. 37-0-1-2-2-2 (see below)

Bold Bidder (62)= 2 starters 0 finished 5th or better
What A Pleasure (65)= 3 starters 1 finished 5th
Dust Commander (67)= 1 starter 0 finished 5th or better
Irish Castle (67)= 4 starters 0 finished 5th or better
Secretariat (70)= 3 starters 1 showed
Seattle Slew (74)= 19 starters 0wins 1plc 1shw 2-4th 2-5th
Various others son's= 5 starters 0 finished 5th or better

Storm Cat as a sire of Classic runners and entrants is also a myth.
Storm Cat (83)= 8 starters 0wins 2plc 1shw 0-4th 0-5th

Facts is Facts.
Bruddah,

I think we agree that Sec wasn't the greatest sire of all time. Okay, but not great. However, having read your last post, are you saying your basing your opinion on Secretariat solely on KD results since 1987 of the Bold Ruler lineage?? I may be mis-reading your statement, so please don't think I'm picking a fight. Although depending on your answer, I may disagree with your methodology. :)

[joanied]

broadmare sire :ThmbUp:

One of our top BROODmare sires:D

[joanied]

bcgreg....
Fabulous looking 2 year old...you should be proud!!

I didn't want to use your quotes...too long with the photo...appreciate the links...the one of Secretariat running in his paddock actually brought tears to my eyes...
you mention him being a little overweight...I'll prob'ly catch hell for this...but the very reason we lost that great horse way too soon was the very fact that he was overweight...his connections were so scared of something happening to him, they were overly cautious in his care...he spent way too much time in his stall, his turnouts were only for hours at a time, and they fed him too much...so, he developed Laminitus.
A horse like that...he needed to be put under tack everyday and galloped, he needed at least 8 hours a day in his paddock at liberty and his feed should have been monitored better...too rich, too much.

I suppose if he was standing at stud today, they'd know to do all that and manage him better...but the bottom line is, he wasn't managed right as far as his physical well being.

[Bruddah]

Bruddah,

I think we agree that Sec wasn't the greatest sire of all time. Okay, but not great. However, having read your last post, are you saying your basing your opinion on Secretariat solely on KD results since 1987 of the Bold Ruler lineage?? I may be mis-reading your statement, so please don't think I'm picking a fight. Although depending on your answer, I may disagree with your methodology. :)

I gave Ky Derby stats as a prime example. The other Classics are worse. I just don't have the time or energy to break them all down and research them for you. Believe what you will. I offer you statistics, others are offering opinions. If your methodology is better, show me. I am always willing to learn from facts.

Truthfully, this is like the old adage of leeding a horse to water but not being able to make him drink. :lol:

[HEY DUDE]

IMHO, the best racing horse ever. After watching the videos it puts a little perspective on what I thought was great racing (Rachel Alexander) It would be amazing to see this again in my lifetime. Doubtful though when the bar was raised so high by Secratariat.

[tucker6]

I gave Ky Derby stats as a prime example. The other Classics are worse. I just don't have the time or energy to break them all down and research them for you. Believe what you will. I offer you statistics, others are offering opinions. If your methodology is better, show me. I am always willing to learn from facts.

Truthfully, this is like the old adage of leeding a horse to water but not being able to make him drink. :lol:
It's okay Bruddah. It doesn't interest me enough to check really. I'll take your word for it, even if the methodology appears sketchy at a glance. I would have used other metrics, such as a more complete array of racing distances rather than just one race and maybe the complete time frame from Bold Ruler to present, but like I said, I'll let your method stand.

Have a good day. :)

[Bruddah]

It's okay Bruddah. It doesn't interest me enough to check really. I'll take your word for it, even if the methodology appears sketchy at a glance. I would have used other metrics, such as a more complete array of racing distances rather than just one race and maybe the complete time frame from Bold Ruler to present, but like I said, I'll let your method stand.

Have a good day. :)


Well old friend, if you have a better "metric" (mousetrap) to prove the Greatness of Secretariat as a sire of Ky Derby/Classic runners since 1987, please build it. However, I don't know what a "complete array" of racing distances is supposed to mean or prove when it comes to the three Classic distances which are run. :confused:

[tucker6]

Well old friend, if you have a better "metric" (mousetrap) to prove the Greatness of Secretariat as a sire of Ky Derby/Classic runners since 1987, please build it. However, I don't know what a "complete array" of racing distances is supposed to mean or prove when it comes to the three Classic distances which are run. :confused:
my point there is that if a sire throws a great many champion milers and/or sprinters, does that make him a great sire, or can you only become a great sire if you throw champion classic runners??

[46zilzal]

Just heard who the powers that be cast for Lucien Lauren in the new Secretariat movie...It is a real pile of manure: good actor but physically completely the wrong person: John Malkovich!!

http://www.leftcoastracing.com/

[Marshall Bennett]

Greatest horse ever ? I'm not sure . I do know this , he ran the greatest race in the history of the sport . That says a lot .

[joanied]

my point there is that if a sire throws a great many champion milers and/or sprinters, does that make him a great sire, or can you only become a great sire if you throw champion classic runners??

IMO...great sprint sires, great grass sires, great filly sires, great classic sires...and so forth!!
:) ...how's that;)

[joanied]

Just heard who the powers that be cast for Lucien Lauren in the new Secretariat movie...It is a real pile of manure: good actor but physically completely the wrong person: John Malkovich!!

http://www.leftcoastracing.com/

"LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/)) - Dylan Walsh, John Malkovich and Scott Glenn are saddling up for "Secretariat," the story of the horse that won the 1973 Triple Crown.

Diane Lane stars as the horse's owner Penny Tweedy, the housewife who broke though a gender barrier to usher Secretariat to greatness.

Walsh plays Lane's husband, a successful attorney who is accustomed to his wife being at his beck and call. Malkovich plays a charismatic trainer who underestimates the power of Secretariat; Glenn is a southern-bred aristocrat who loses the horse in a coin toss.

Shooting begins this week in Louisiana and Kentucky, with Randall Wallace ("We Were Soldiers") directing from a script by Mike Rich ("Finding Forrester").

MYGOD... I can't beleive they are using John Malkovich to play Lucien...what are they thinking:confused: I know they can do amazing things with makeup and all...but, really...how can Malkovich possible look evern remotley like Lucien...especially in stature:bang:
Too bad Mickey Rooney is so old...he'd been perfect!!

[Steve R]

IMO...great sprint sires, great grass sires, great filly sires, great classic sires...and so forth!!
:) ...how's that;)
No sire in history has been at the top in every aspect of breeding. To put Secretariat in perspective, he is the broodmare sire of a half dozen US-bred, world-class stallions (not to mention quite a few useful ones as well): A.P. Indy, Chief's Crown, Dehere, Gone West, Storm Cat and Summer Squall. Neither Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector nor Storm Cat can match that record. In fact, I doubt there is a sire in the modern era that can. Such an accomplishment alone is sufficient to confirm Secretariat as one of the most influential sires in Thoroughbred history. Leading the sire lists or getting multiple classic winners is not the only valid measure of a sire's ultimate success.

[Bruddah]

my point there is that if a sire throws a great many champion milers and/or sprinters, does that make him a great sire, or can you only become a great sire if you throw champion classic runners??

Tucker6, just a Wild A$$ guess on my part but :rolleyes: , I think choice B would be my answer. I think my choice would be upheld by the Breeding Industry. Your choice of A normally produces useful progeny, not Champions.

[Bruddah]

No sire in history has been at the top in every aspect of breeding. To put Secretariat in perspective, he is the broodmare sire of a half dozen US-bred, world-class stallions (not to mention quite a few useful ones as well): A.P. Indy, Chief's Crown, Dehere, Gone West, Storm Cat and Summer Squall. Neither Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector nor Storm Cat can match that record. In fact, I doubt there is a sire in the modern era that can. Such an accomplishment alone is sufficient to confirm Secretariat as one of the most influential sires in Thoroughbred history. Leading the sire lists or getting multiple classic winners is not the only valid measure of a sire's ultimate success.

Do you know anything about breeding?

[tucker6]

[/B]

Tucker6, just a Wild A$$ guess on my part but :rolleyes: , I think choice B would be my answer. I think my choice would be upheld by the Breeding Industry. Your choice of A normally produces useful progeny, not Champions.
... and we all know the breeding industry has done a fine job with breeding thoroughbreds, now don't we...

[Bruddah]

... and we all know the breeding industry has done a fine job with breeding thoroughbreds, now don't we...
I have it on good authority, the whole Equine Breeding Industry has agreed to change based on your opinion alone. No need for facts, your sole opinion has swung the tide. :lol:

[Steve R]

Do you know anything about breeding?
Quite a bit more than you, I'm sure, considering I've made a very good living at it for the past 30 years and am considered by many to be one of the world's leading authorities on the relationship between Thoroughbred pedigree and race track performance.

[tucker6]

I have it on good authority, the whole Equine Breeding Industry has agreed to change based on your opinion alone. No need for facts, your sole opinion has swung the tide. :lol:
I often notice that you send out these little zinger posts when you get into a tight debate corner. It tends to make you look silly and overwhelmed by doing so. Just try sticking to the arguments. I've tried to have a rational discussion with you, but you feel repeatedly that you must be juvenile. When you decide you want to debate a subject, let me know.

[Steve R]

my point there is that if a sire throws a great many champion milers and/or sprinters, does that make him a great sire, or can you only become a great sire if you throw champion classic runners??
Since 1983 only 10 sires, A.P. Indy, Alydar, Birdstone, Danzig, Halo, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Sovereign Dancer, Unbridled and Woodman have gotten more than one US classic winner, with only Alydar and Unbrilded getting more than two. Of the 65 separate classic winners only a couple of dozen were named champion in the year they won a classic race, although a few went on the earn championships as older runners. All of these sires were good but not all were world-class or would be considered great. The point is that getting classic winners is not the only measure of a sire's greatness. Bold Ruler led the general sire list 8 times but sired just one US classic winner. Northern Dancer never sired any. On the other hand, solid but hardly great sires like Bold Venture and Exclusive Native each sired multiple classic winners including a TC winner. The measure of a sire's greatness is not based on a simplistic formula. The final measure of greatness is the extent to which a sire influences future generations. Secretariat, through his daughters and their influential sons, belongs in that group of enduring influences.

[Grits]

Since 1983 only 10 sires, A.P. Indy, Alydar, Birdstone, Danzig, Halo, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Sovereign Dancer, Unbridled and Woodman have gotten more than one US classic winner, with only Alydar and Unbrilded getting more than two. Of the 65 separate classic winners only a couple of dozen were named champion in the year they won a classic race, although a few went on the earn championships as older runners. All of these sires were good but not all were world-class or would be considered great. The point is that getting classic winners is not the only measure of a sire's greatness. Bold Ruler led the general sire list 8 times but sired just one US classic winner. Northern Dancer never sired any. On the other hand, solid but hardly great sires like Bold Venture and Exclusive Native each sired multiple classic winners including a TC winner. The measure of a sire's greatness is not based on a simplistic formula. The final measure of greatness is the extent to which a sire influences future generations. Secretariat, through his daughters and their influential sons, belongs in that group of enduring influences.

SteveR, you're more effective when you write posts that teach or share knowledge, as opposed to those that indicate your gift of humility (discussed in your post prior to this one.):lol:

Since you're one of the world's leading authorities, I'm trying to figure out whether you're:

(A.) Demi O'Byrne

(B.) John Ferguson

Thanks for posting; good reading in this particular presentation.

[joanied]

No sire in history has been at the top in every aspect of breeding. To put Secretariat in perspective, he is the broodmare sire of a half dozen US-bred, world-class stallions (not to mention quite a few useful ones as well): A.P. Indy, Chief's Crown, Dehere, Gone West, Storm Cat and Summer Squall. Neither Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector nor Storm Cat can match that record. In fact, I doubt there is a sire in the modern era that can. Such an accomplishment alone is sufficient to confirm Secretariat as one of the most influential sires in Thoroughbred history. Leading the sire lists or getting multiple classic winners is not the only valid measure of a sire's ultimate success.

Right:ThmbUp:

[joanied]

Since 1983 only 10 sires, A.P. Indy, Alydar, Birdstone, Danzig, Halo, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, Sovereign Dancer, Unbridled and Woodman have gotten more than one US classic winner, with only Alydar and Unbrilded getting more than two. Of the 65 separate classic winners only a couple of dozen were named champion in the year they won a classic race, although a few went on the earn championships as older runners. All of these sires were good but not all were world-class or would be considered great. The point is that getting classic winners is not the only measure of a sire's greatness. Bold Ruler led the general sire list 8 times but sired just one US classic winner. Northern Dancer never sired any. On the other hand, solid but hardly great sires like Bold Venture and Exclusive Native each sired multiple classic winners including a TC winner. The measure of a sire's greatness is not based on a simplistic formula. The final measure of greatness is the extent to which a sire influences future generations. Secretariat, through his daughters and their influential sons, belongs in that group of enduring influences.

Thank you for a very good:ThmbUp: post...I can think of only a couple of ;) folks here that will try and dispute what you wrote!!

[joanied]

SteveR, you're more effective when you write posts that teach or share knowledge, as opposed to those that indicate your gift of humility (discussed in your post prior to this one.):lol:

Since you're one of the world's leading authorities, I'm trying to figure out whether you're:

(A.) Demi O'Byrne

(B.) John Ferguson

Thanks for posting; good reading in this particular presentation.

AH-hah...grits, I am curious also...remember the TV show 'What's My Line' ? Maybe SteveR would give himself away if we ask enough questions:jump: ...
anyway...SteveR...very glad you are here... you are an expert and humble to boot:ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

AH-hah...grits, I am curious also...remember the TV show 'What's My Line' ? Maybe SteveR would give himself away if we ask enough questions:jump: ...
anyway...SteveR...very glad you are here... you are an expert and humble to boot:ThmbUp:

Oh boy, can I be Soupy Sales?

"Mr. R., does the name of your website sound like a cross between the Food Network and HRTV?"

[joanied]

Oh boy, can I be Soupy Sales?

"Mr. R., does the name of your website sound like a cross between the Food Network and HRTV?"

Yes you can:lol:

[Bruddah]

Quite a bit more than you, I'm sure, considering I've made a very good living at it for the past 30 years and am considered by many to be one of the world's leading authorities on the relationship between Thoroughbred pedigree and race track performance.

Well, your comments leave you well short of your acclaim. :rolleyes:

[Bruddah]

I often notice that you send out these little zinger posts when you get into a tight debate corner. It tends to make you look silly and overwhelmed by doing so. Just try sticking to the arguments. I've tried to have a rational discussion with you, but you feel repeatedly that you must be juvenile. When you decide you want to debate a subject, let me know.

Sir, I haven't seen you produce one fact in your so called argument. So debate, I'll give you a 100 yard head start and run backwards. You are correct, you have looked silly and inane.

[tucker6]

I'll give you a 100 yard head start and run backwards. You are correct, you have looked silly and inane.
see what I mean...

Brush up on your debating skills and add some better ammunition and then come back to this thread. It's embarrassing really. :bang:

[SecretSquirrel]

Hello to all. I found this thread very interesting because I am one of the few that do not believe Secretariat was the greatest ever. If I was forced to pick one horse I would pick Affirmed.

[andymays]

Hello to all. I found this thread very interesting because I am one of the few that do not believe Secretariat was the greatest ever. If I was forced to pick one horse I would pick Affirmed.


Welcome to the Board :ThmbUp: and duck for cover with that one! ;)

[NYPlayer]

...Leading the sire lists or getting multiple classic winners is not the only valid measure of a sire's ultimate success.

I think the biggest challenge for breeders today is getting to the next superhorse. I don't mean to downplay or underrate Rachel Alexandra or Zenyatta, but we've yet to see a horse that truly moves the world the way Secretariat did. In my brief study of pedigrees, l discovered that the Bold Ruler line produced the most sensational runners of the latter 20th century, but really, we haven't seen any like them for more than thirty years. Secretariat was an influential broodmare sire, but it seems that none of his progeny ever matched his accomplishments as a runner.

[tucker6]

Secretariat was an influential broodmare sire, but it seems that none of his progeny ever matched his accomplishments as a runner.
How can any horse match him. He was the ultimate freak. He had near perfect conformation, the largest cardio-pulmonary system ever seen, and a singular gait that saved energy. He was also an alpha male who loved running. Not sure we'll ever see him again. I'm not even sure we were ever supposed to see him.

[SecretSquirrel]

Many seem to focus on 4 or 5 of his races that were incredible performances but few seem to remember 3 very poor performances during the same year.

[tucker6]

Many seem to focus on 4 or 5 of his races that were incredible performances but few seem to remember 3 very poor performances during the same year.
name those 3 VERY poor performances. I don't remember those up the track races.

[Pell Mell]

No sire in history has been at the top in every aspect of breeding. To put Secretariat in perspective, he is the broodmare sire of a half dozen US-bred, world-class stallions (not to mention quite a few useful ones as well): A.P. Indy, Chief's Crown, Dehere, Gone West, Storm Cat and Summer Squall. Neither Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector nor Storm Cat can match that record. In fact, I doubt there is a sire in the modern era that can. Such an accomplishment alone is sufficient to confirm Secretariat as one of the most influential sires in Thoroughbred history. Leading the sire lists or getting multiple classic winners is not the only valid measure of a sire's ultimate success.

I really don't recall the horses but I seem to recall Nashua being a terrific broodmare sire. Do you know any that he's produced?

[SecretSquirrel]

Secretariat set a standard few have been able to match he is surely one of the all time greats but I prefer Affirmed. Affirmed lost just like Secretariat did but in his 3 losses at 3 years old he lost two of them to 2 of the top 30 horses ever. Secretariat lost to 3 very average horses. I will never forget watching Onion look Secretariat in the eye and pull away from him. I couldn't believe it then and its hard to believe now but that race took some of the shine away for me.

[bisket]

now that it seems we've branched a little to broodmare sires. an interesting sidelight to richards kid. broad (had that word on my mind joanny) brush has turned out to be a very good broad (that one was on purpose) mare sire. if anyone decides to play the md million take note of how many horse's moms are sired by broad brush. theres plenty. now i know these aren't grade 1 horses, but quantity tells its own story. which was another reason i thought rich had ability.

[Java Gold@TFT]

name those 3 VERY poor performances. I don't remember those up the track races.
Wood Memorial lost to Angle Light - excuse was abscess in his mouth.
Whitney - lost to Onion - excuse was a mild fever
Woodward - lost to Prove Out - can't remember the excuse if any.

None of those races were even near the dominate perforamnces in the Belmont or Marlboro Cup and they were horses he should never have had any problem with if he was even 80% healthy. He did later go on to beat Onion but to say that Secretariat's Whitney performance at 1-10 was anything but a huge disappointment would be a stretch.

[sandpit]

Wood Memorial lost to Angle Light - excuse was abscess in his mouth.
Whitney - lost to Onion - excuse was a mild fever
Woodward - lost to Prove Out - can't remember the excuse if any.

None of those races were even near the dominate perforamnces in the Belmont or Marlboro Cup and they were horses he should never have had any problem with if he was even 80% healthy. He did later go on to beat Onion but to say that Secretariat's Whitney performance at 1-10 was anything but a huge disappointment would be a stretch.

Hard to argue with the above facts; but also hard to argue with his numerous track and world records. Like other horses thru history, it would have been great to see him race at four or even five. The battles with Forego would have been tremendous.

While Secretariat lost to some average stakes horses, the only horses to finish ahead of Dr. Fager in his entire career were all voted champion in the season they defeated him. He was also named champion in 3 different divisions and HOY in 1968, a feat that never will be duplicated, IMO.

Like it's been said many times on this board, it's tough to argue across generations, but it's easy to see why people think Man o' War, Count Fleet, Citation, Native Dancer, Swaps, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid and others are every bit the horse that Secretariat was.

[RXB]

Wood Memorial lost to Angle Light - excuse was abscess in his mouth.
Whitney - lost to Onion - excuse was a mild fever
Woodward - lost to Prove Out - can't remember the excuse if any.

None of those races were even near the dominate perforamnces in the Belmont or Marlboro Cup and they were horses he should never have had any problem with if he was even 80% healthy. He did later go on to beat Onion but to say that Secretariat's Whitney performance at 1-10 was anything but a huge disappointment would be a stretch.

He ran subpar races in the Wood and the Whitney but not the Woodward. Prove Out ran an outstanding race-- 2:25 4/5 on a muddy track.

[RXB]

The battles with Forego would have been tremendous.


Forego was a great horse but not quite fast enough to keep up with the likes of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid. As a 5YO, Forego lost two of three to Wajima who was only 3YO and, although a very good horse, not in the class of Secretariat or Spectacular Bid.

[Paseana]

Belmont Park June 1978 1-1/2 miles: Affirmed and Alydar in a life-and death duel the length of the stretch in the Belmont Stakes. Affirmed wins by a head and captures the Triple Crown. Final time: 2:26 4/5

Belmont Park October 1978 1-1/2 miles: Seattle Slew comes up a nose short in the Jockey Club Gold Cup in what is widely regarded as the greatest race any horse has ever run in defeat. Many even say it was the greatest race that Seattle Slew ever ran period. Final time: 2:27 1/5

Belmont Park June 1973 1-1/2 miles: Secretariat breaks loose on the final turn and widens to 31 lengths at the wire....Ronnie is afraid to move a muscle for fear of falling off. Final time: 2:24


In the last 60 runnings of the Belmont Stakes, only 7 horses other than Secretariat have run the race in sub-2:27 time. Here they are:

1957 Gallant Man 2:26 3/5
1978 Affirmed 2:26 4/5
1988 Risen Star 2:26 2/5
1989 Easy Goer 2:26
1992 A P Indy 2:26 1/5
1994 Tabasco Cat 2:26 4/5
2001 Point Given 2:26 3/5

Easy Goer gets credit for running the 2nd fastest Belmont Stakes in history......2 full seconds slower than Secretariat. Easy Goer won that Belmont by 8 or 9 lengths though.....he probably would have cut into that difference if he'd been asked. The interest of fairness gives that possibility to him. He was a great horse.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup was run at 1-1/2 miles from the runnings of 1976 to 1989. There was only one horse in that period to win the race in under 2:27:

1983 Slew O'Gold (as a 3yo) 2:26 1/5


I guess I'm just trying to provide some perspective here. Secretariat's race in the Belmont Stakes has become so iconic that few, if any, can be objective about it. Beyer has tried to project a figure, and I've heard between 138 and 140. The point is that Secretariat really had his own zipcode. I don't care that he lost races to no-names......I really don't. Great horses lose races all the time to inexplicable no-names. I could list a bunch of them right now but I'm just not in the mood! :p

Belmont Park at 1-1/2 miles: The 8 fastest horses winning in 2:26 and change, and Secretariat winning in 2:24.

Enough said!

[Hosshead]

Is it true that: Secretariat ran each 1/4 in the Belmont faster than the previous quarter ??
Something I heard one time.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is it true that: Secretariat ran each 1/4 in the Belmont faster than the previous quarter ??
Something I heard one time.He ran each quarter faster than the last in the Derby....

[tucker6]

Secretariat set a standard few have been able to match he is surely one of the all time greats but I prefer Affirmed. Affirmed lost just like Secretariat did but in his 3 losses at 3 years old he lost two of them to 2 of the top 30 horses ever. Secretariat lost to 3 very average horses. I will never forget watching Onion look Secretariat in the eye and pull away from him. I couldn't believe it then and its hard to believe now but that race took some of the shine away for me.
You do realize that in the Woodward, Prove Out crossed the wire in a 12F race in 2:25:80. That would have won ANY Belmont in history except for the one Secretariat won. By saying Sec performed poorly, you insult Prove Out. Did Sec race as he normally was capable that day. No. But I wouldn't call finishing second in 2:27:00, which was about equal to what Affirmed ran 12F on his best day, a poor performance. Otherwise, what does that say about Affirmed.

[tucker6]

Woodward - lost to Prove Out - can't remember the excuse if any.


I recall he was in training for turf racing at the time, but was inserted as a late entry in the Woodward when another Meadow Stables horse couldn't make it. I think.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Hard to argue with the above facts; but also hard to argue with his numerous track and world records. Like other horses thru history, it would have been great to see him race at four or even five. The battles with Forego would have been tremendous.

While Secretariat lost to some average stakes horses, the only horses to finish ahead of Dr. Fager in his entire career were all voted champion in the season they defeated him. He was also named champion in 3 different divisions and HOY in 1968, a feat that never will be duplicated, IMO.

Like it's been said many times on this board, it's tough to argue across generations, but it's easy to see why people think Man o' War, Count Fleet, Citation, Native Dancer, Swaps, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid and others are every bit the horse that Secretariat was.
I wasn't implying that I think any less of Secretariat for those races. He's the greatest horse I have actually seen race live when I was at the Whitney loss. I was merely answering tucker6's question about the 3 poor performances that year. He asked them to be named so I did. They don't change anything about the monsterous Belmont, freakish way he accelerated every 1/4 mile in the Derby, the monster move in the first turn in the Preakness or even the huge move I saw him make in the Hopeful as a 2yo. It's just that those losses will always be on his permanent record as any high school principal will tell you.

[ghostyapper]

You do realize that in the Woodward, Prove Out crossed the wire in a 12F race in 2:25:80. That would have won ANY Belmont in history except for the one Secretariat won. By saying Sec performed poorly, you insult Prove Out. Did Sec race as he normally was capable that day. No. But I wouldn't call finishing second in 2:27:00, which was about equal to what Affirmed ran 12F on his best day, a poor performance. Otherwise, what does that say about Affirmed.

By your logic prove out's woodward was more impressive than easy goer's belmont.

When a horse who has never won a stakes race runs that kinda time obviously the track plays a big role, thus you can't compare it to belmont's of different years to judge it's quality

[tucker6]

By your logic prove out's woodward was more impressive than easy goer's belmont.

When a horse who has never won a stakes race runs that kinda time obviously the track plays a big role, thus you can't compare it to belmont's of different years to judge it's qualityHow do you know Easy Goer wasn't the beneficiary of the better track condition? You're making a mighty big assumption there.

Prove Out's Woodward WAS impressive by any standard.

[SecretSquirrel]

You do realize that in the Woodward, Prove Out crossed the wire in a 12F race in 2:25:80. That would have won ANY Belmont in history except for the one Secretariat won. By saying Sec performed poorly, you insult Prove Out. Did Sec race as he normally was capable that day. No. But I wouldn't call finishing second in 2:27:00, which was about equal to what Affirmed ran 12F on his best day, a poor performance. Otherwise, what does that say about Affirmed.

I don't believe you can compare tracks and times from one year to the next. Many believe Sham ran the second fastest Derby ever, well who was Sham? He won one race of any real importance and never won again. I guess it tells us how fast the track was playing that day. Prove Out didn't even hit the board in half his races so it seems he caught a very fast track as did Secretariat and Prove Out was giving up weight to Prove Out 7 lbs. I believe. Not a very good performance by Secretariat considering Prove Out was an average horse. IMHO.

[tucker6]

I don't believe you can compare tracks and times from one year to the next.
If that is true, then why do we keep time and record records??

[ghostyapper]

How do you know Easy Goer wasn't the beneficiary of the better track condition? You're making a mighty big assumption there.

Prove Out's Woodward WAS impressive by any standard.

It was impressive but don't say it was better than affirmed or easy goer because of the time.

Easy Goer did not just run a big race in the belmont, he ran many his whole career thus it's easier to be believe the time was based on his ability more than the track condition.

[Steve R]

In "Picking Winners", Andy Beyer says he assigned Secretariat a 129 for both the Derby and the Preakness, an astounding 148 for the Belmont and a 128 for the Woodward. If one accepts the last figure, then Prove Out earned a 134 in that race.

In "Beyer On Speed", he says Affirmed's best ever figure was the 128 he earned in the 1979 JCGC over Spectacular Bid. I also recall reading (can't recall where) that Easy Goer earned a 126 in his Belmont.

[DanG]

. its just the affect that secratariat had on the fans in modern times that seperates the two in my opinion. its just a shame man o war came along before the 1930's or we would have a much better understanding of him today.

BK: At the end of WW-I, historians credit Man O ‘War greatly with a massive surge in our sports popularity.

[SecretSquirrel]

If that is true, then why do we keep time and record records??

Why ? We like to keep score that's why. But do you really believe Sham ran a better aka faster Derby than all the other winners over the last 35 years ? Is it possible that the track conditions that day were a bit fast ? I think Sham finishing a blink behind Secretariat says it all. Sham was no Alydar.

[FenceBored]

Why ? We like to keep score that's why. But do you really believe Sham ran a better aka faster Derby than all the other winners over the last 35 years ? Is it possible that the track conditions that day were a bit fast ? I think Sham finishing a blink behind Secretariat says it all. Sham was no Alydar.

Well now, let's go to the record books. Santa Anita Derby. Stakes record for the 9f is 1:47.00. This is a three way tie of Lucky Debonair (1965), Sham (1973), and Indian Charlie (1998). Affirmed ran a 1:48.00. While I'm not going to claim Sham was a better horse than Affirmed off of this, I think it shows that Sham wasn't the bum you're trying to make him out to be.

[tucker6]

Well now, let's go to the record books. Santa Anita Derby. Stakes record for the 9f is 1:47.00. This is a three way tie of Lucky Debonair (1965), Sham (1973), and Indian Charlie (1998). Affirmed ran a 1:48.00. While I'm not going to claim Sham was a better horse than Affirmed off of this, I think it shows that Sham wasn't the bum you're trying to make him out to be.Sham likely had a similar time for 9F in the KD to end up at 1:59:80. May have even run the first 9F at KD faster than what he ran it in the SA Derby. Luckily for Sham, the surface was souped up both times.

Then if we look at the 1973 Preakness, Sham finished 2-1/2 back of Secretariat, which finished in 1:53:40. If you add half a second to that time, Sham finished in 1:53:90. We all know Affirmed and Alydar finished their Preakness in 1:54:40. Looks like Sham got another lucky break on surface speed that day as well. Maybe Sham should be renamed Lucky.

[RXB]

In "Picking Winners", Andy Beyer says he assigned Secretariat a 129 for both the Derby and the Preakness, an astounding 148 for the Belmont and a 128 for the Woodward. If one accepts the last figure, then Prove Out earned a 134 in that race.

In "Beyer On Speed", he says Affirmed's best ever figure was the 128 he earned in the 1979 JCGC over Spectacular Bid. I also recall reading (can't recall where) that Easy Goer earned a 126 in his Belmont.


Not an accurate comparison as the figure scale Beyer was using in "Picking Winners" was many points higher than his later scale, which he used in "Beyer on Speed."

Secretariat would've been around 120 for the Derby/Preakness/Woodward. Which is still outstanding for a 3YO, of course. The freakish Belmont was a 139. He never came close to that in his other races.

[SecretSquirrel]

Well now, let's go to the record books. Santa Anita Derby. Stakes record for the 9f is 1:47.00. This is a three way tie of Lucky Debonair (1965), Sham (1973), and Indian Charlie (1998). Affirmed ran a 1:48.00. While I'm not going to claim Sham was a better horse than Affirmed off of this, I think it shows that Sham wasn't the bum you're trying to make him out to be.

I have no desire to call any horse a bum. But please try to keep Sham in the proper perspective. The horse won one major race and than never won again.

[SecretSquirrel]

Sham likely had a similar time for 9F in the KD to end up at 1:59:80. May have even run the first 9F at KD faster than what he ran it in the SA Derby. Luckily for Sham, the surface was souped up both times.

Then if we look at the 1973 Preakness, Sham finished 2-1/2 back of Secretariat, which finished in 1:53:40. If you add half a second to that time, Sham finished in 1:53:90. We all know Affirmed and Alydar finished their Preakness in 1:54:40. Looks like Sham got another lucky break on surface speed that day as well. Maybe Sham should be renamed Lucky.

Are you sure you really want to compare Sham to Affirmed or Alydar in any way, shape, fashion, or form? Really? Seriously?

[tucker6]

I have no desire to call any horse a bum. But please try to keep Sham in the proper perspective. The horse won one major race and than never won again.He won one major race facing the greatest of all time. He got hurt in his final attempt to overtake the greatest of all time in the Belmont and never raced again. So, please try to keep Sham in the proper perspective. See it works both ways. No need to tear down a horse to elevate yours.

[Java Gold@TFT]

BK: At the end of WW-I, historians credit Man O ‘War greatly with a massive surge in our sports popularity.
bisket, check out how people really felt about Man O' War.

http://docsunspeckledrock.blogspot.com/2007/07/man-o-wars-funeral.html

When he died in 1947 he was laid in state like a president and more than 2,000 people attended his funeral. To even hint that he had less of an impact on America as a race horse and folk hero is ignoring the facts. And don't forget this was 27 years after he was done racing.

http://www.claibornefarm.com/media/manowar-funeral.shtml

[DanG]

bisket, check out how people really felt about Man O' War.

http://docsunspeckledrock.blogspot.com/2007/07/man-o-wars-funeral.html

When he died in 1947 he was laid in state like a president and more than 2,000 people attended his funeral. To even hint that he had less of an impact on America as a race horse and folk hero is ignoring the facts. And don't forget this was 27 years after he was done racing.

http://www.claibornefarm.com/media/manowar-funeral.shtml

Good stuff JG, thanks. :ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

I have no desire to call any horse a bum. But please try to keep Sham in the proper perspective. The horse won one major race and than never won again.

If you say a horse "won one major race and than never won again" you're calling him a bum. You are, in effect, saying he got lucky once. Of course, Sham also won the Santa Catalina, which is now the G2 Robert B. Lewis, so maybe he got lucky twice. And you're conveniently neglecting to mention that he never raced again after the Belmont. Diagnosed with a fracture in July 1973 he was retired. So, he never won again, but he never lost again either.

And how far ahead of third place finisher Our Native was Sham in the Derby? 8 lengths. That don't sound like a horse who is just benefiting from a fast track to me.

[RXB]

Same eight-length gap in the Preakness, too, between Sham and Our Native, who again finished third.

If you've ever seen Pincay's interviews after the Derby and Preakness, his demeanour is somewhere between confusion and awe. He knows his horse is running fantastic races and yet not only is Sham being defeated, he's really not even competitive with the winner.

[joanied]

Hello to all. I found this thread very interesting because I am one of the few that do not believe Secretariat was the greatest ever. If I was forced to pick one horse I would pick Affirmed.

Welcome to PaceAdvantage:) But...:eek: :eek: :eek:

[joanied]

Many seem to focus on 4 or 5 of his races that were incredible performances but few seem to remember 3 very poor performances during the same year.

May I suggest a very good book for you to read: "The Horse that God Built" by Lawrence Scanlan...I think it's better than William Knack's book...get a copy and read...you won't be able to put it down and you will find out that those 3 'clunkers' that Secretatiat ran were with excellent excuses...he was sick, he had a horrible abcess in his mouth...and yet still managed to be right there at the finish.
This book will open your eyes as to just how freakeshly phenominal this horse was...we will never see another like him, not in our lifetimes.
:)

[ghostyapper]

Sham was a talented horse but how could you not say that secretariats tracks were souped up that year? I believe someone once said (not 100% sure if it's true ) every record secretariat set that year another record was set within 48 hours of his race by another horse at the same track.

Basically you have Sham and Prove Out running times that have held up for 30 years (monarchos might have equaled or ran faster).

I don't believe either of these 2 were anywhere close to as fast as affirmed/alydar/bid/seattle slew.

[SecretSquirrel]

If you say a horse "won one major race and than never won again" you're calling him a bum. You are, in effect, saying he got lucky once. Of course, Sham also won the Santa Catalina, which is now the G2 Robert B. Lewis, so maybe he got lucky twice. And you're conveniently neglecting to mention that he never raced again after the Belmont. Diagnosed with a fracture in July 1973 he was retired. So, he never won again, but he never lost again either.

And how far ahead of third place finisher Our Native was Sham in the Derby? 8 lengths. That don't sound like a horse who is just benefiting from a fast track to me.

Again, I am not calling Sham a bum. I am stating a fact that he won one major race and never won again. He raced several times after that win and lost each time. The fact is Pioneer of the Nile has a more impressive resume than Sham. Our Native raced 14 times winning 4 races.

[FenceBored]

Again, I am not calling Sham a bum. I am stating a fact that he won one major race and never won again. He raced several times after that win and lost each time. The fact is Pioneer of the Nile has a more impressive resume than Sham. Our Native raced 14 times winning 4 races.

Again, yes you are. D'Tara won one big race and has never won again. People call him a bum. You're "stating a fact that he [Sham] won one major race and never won again." And the conclusion you expect people to draw from that is?

[joanied]

Sham was a talented horse but how could you not say that secretariats tracks were souped up that year? I believe someone once said (not 100% sure if it's true ) every record secretariat set that year another record was set within 48 hours of his race by another horse at the same track.

Basically you have Sham and Prove Out running times that have held up for 30 years (monarchos might have equaled or ran faster).

I don't believe either of these 2 were anywhere close to as fast as affirmed/alydar/bid/seattle slew.

Guess they souped up the track in the mornings too...because many of Big Red's works were in track record times!

[ghostyapper]

Again, yes you are. D'Tara won one big race and has never won again. People call him a bum. You're "stating a fact that he [Sham] won one major race and never won again." And the conclusion you expect people to draw from that is?

Not every horse that wins one big race is a bum. Sham did things on the track that D'Tara has never come close to. What you are doing here is the equivalent of:

Smart Person: Dan Marino has never won a superbowl
Not Smart Person: Well Jeff George has never won a superbowl either and people say he's a bum so that means you think dan marino is a bum

[Grits]

Let's don't even put the name Marino and the word "bum" in the same sentence. No way, not even as an example. LOLOLOLOL ;)

[ghostyapper]

Guess they souped up the track in the mornings too...because many of Big Red's works were in track record times!

No one is saying that he wasn't fast or wouldn't have set track records regardless but a horse like Prove Out running a quicker race than the likes of affirmed, slew, slew o gold certainly gives credence to the "souped up" tracks theory.

[Steve R]

Not an accurate comparison as the figure scale Beyer was using in "Picking Winners" was many points higher than his later scale, which he used in "Beyer on Speed."

Secretariat would've been around 120 for the Derby/Preakness/Woodward. Which is still outstanding for a 3YO, of course. The freakish Belmont was a 139. He never came close to that in his other races.
It's not quite as simple as you imply. There is some confusion involving the differences in one-turn and two-turn races. In PICKING WINNERS the 8 1/2f speed rating for 1:41.0 at Belmont (one-turn) is 128. In BEYER ON SPEED there is no one-turn speed rating at 8 1/2f, but the two-turn rating for 1:41.0 is 127. Belmont at 9f in 1:48.0 (also one-turn) has a speed rating of 121 in PICKING WINNERS. In BEYER ON SPEED, again there is no one-turn 9f rating, but the generic rating for 1:48.0 is 122. Not much difference between the two books.

Secretariat's initial Belmont figure of 148 does seem excessive, and all of his Beyer figures are suspect since they were calculated years after the fact. However, the 125-130 range seems quite plausible for Secretariat's best efforts considering there have been about a half dozen runners in the last 15 years or so that have run in that range beyond a mile on dirt. And even though Secretariat was only three at the time, he trounced one of the greatest fields of older runners ever assembled in that year's Marlboro Cup, so he was clearly earning older horse figures.

[SecretSquirrel]

No one is saying that he wasn't fast or wouldn't have set track records regardless but a horse like Prove Out running a quicker race than the likes of affirmed, slew, slew o gold certainly gives credence to the "souped up" tracks theory.

The Thread is about Secretariat being the greatest ever and I think its just plain wrong to call him the best ever. Sham beat him at the Wood and Sham won one major race in his entire career. Onion Beat him and Onion as we all know was nothing special and Angle Light beat him and HE was nothing special. Prove Out beat Secretariat badly and gave him 7 lbs in the race. Compare what Secretariat did to what Affirmed did and I have no idea why anyone would consider Secretariat a better horse than Affirmed.

[FenceBored]

Not every horse that wins one big race is a bum. Sham did things on the track that D'Tara has never come close to. What you are doing here is the equivalent of:

Smart Person: Dan Marino has never won a superbowl
Not Smart Person: Well Jeff George has never won a superbowl either and people say he's a bum so that means you think dan marino is a bum

Hmm, interesting, but unpersuasive. The question is not whether someone states a fact about an athelete, it's what conclusion they wish the reader/listener to draw from it.

Many believe Sham ran the second fastest Derby ever, well who was Sham? He won one race of any real importance and never won again. I guess it tells us how fast the track was playing that day.

If that's not trying to denegrate the horse, based upon the 'fact' that Sham "won one race of any real importance and never won again," what is it?

He leaves out the fact that Sham was second choice to the Meadow entry in the Derby. He leaves out the fact that Sham ran 8 lengths in front of the 3rd place horse. He leaves out the fact that Sham tied the stakes record for the Santa Anita Derby. He leaves out the fact that after the Triple Crown, where no horse was going to touch Secretariat, Sham was retired with a fracture. Just, Sham "won one race of any real importance and never won again." No, he's trying to lead the reader into believing that, of course, Secretariat's time was juiced, because this bum, who "won one major race and never won again," was second.

[ghostyapper]

The Thread is about Secretariat being the greatest ever and I think its just plain wrong to call him the best ever. Sham beat him at the Wood and Sham won one major race in his entire career. Onion Beat him and Onion as we all know was nothing special and Angle Light beat him and HE was nothing special. Prove Out beat Secretariat badly and gave him 7 lbs in the race. Compare what Secretariat did to what Affirmed did and I have no idea why anyone would consider Secretariat a better horse than Affirmed.

Well I'll have to disagree with you here. You can look to any of the greats and find some blemishes. Affirmed was no match for slew when they ran and he also opened his 4yo season with a couple of losses.

Secretariat has to be considered the best horse since the 70's. But I think if he raced slew, affirmed, bid 10 times he wouldn't win 9 or 10 times, it would be closer to 6-7.

[Steve R]

[snip]...I have no idea why anyone would consider Secretariat a better horse than Affirmed.
Exactly! You have no idea. I can only assume you are too young to have seen them actually race.

[SecretSquirrel]

Well I'll have to disagree with you here. You can look to any of the greats and find some blemishes. Affirmed was no match for slew when they ran and he also opened his 4yo season with a couple of losses.

Secretariat has to be considered the best horse since the 70's. But I think if he raced slew, affirmed, bid 10 times he wouldn't win 9 or 10 times, it would be closer to 6-7.

Let me see if I got this right. Affirmed at 3 was no match for one of the all time great horses Seattle Slew and Secretariat was no match for Prove Out. Huh?

You do realize Affirmed was HOY in 1979 and defeated one of the greatest horses ever with ease in Spectacular Bid.

How many races did Secretariat win carrying more than 130 lbs in his career?

Affirmed at 3 lost to Seattle Slew and Alydar Secretariat lost to Angle Light and Prove Out. Its not even close.

[sandpit]

Exactly! You have no idea. I can only assume you are too young to have seen them actually race.

You are probably right about that, but now, thanks to Youtube et al, he/she can watch them all and draw conclusions.
Maybe it's a case of the first horse they really remember making an indellible impression that will never be swayed. I could say I feel the same way about Dr. Fager, and have facts to back it up. None of that will ever prove he was greater than Secretariat, especially those using his incomparable Belmont as a measuring stick.

[SecretSquirrel]

Exactly! You have no idea. I can only assume you are too young to have seen them actually race.

Affirmed had to deal with Seattle Slew, Alydar, and Spectacular Bid at their best! Secretariat had to deal with Sham and Prove Out.

[RXB]

Let me see if I got this right. Affirmed at 3 was no match for one of the all time great horses Seattle Slew and Secretariat was no match for Prove Out. Huh?

You do realize Affirmed was HOY in 1979 and defeated one of the greatest horses ever with ease in Spectacular Bid.

How many races did Secretariat win carrying more than 130 lbs in his career?

Affirmed at 3 lost to Seattle Slew and Alydar Secretariat lost to Angle Light and Prove Out. Its not even close.

Affirmed was a fantastic horse but you're being a bit choosy with the facts. He lost a couple of races as a 4YO to horses that weren't anything special.

Also have to point out that his "easy" win over Spectacular Bid was 3/4 of a length and was the 4YO vs 3YO factor.

Prove Out ran an excellent race in the Woodward.

Your point is good, though, that the same standard that applies for other horses' clunkers applies to Secretariat-- and regardless of why, he threw a couple of clunkers, too.

[SecretSquirrel]

You are probably right about that, but now, thanks to Youtube et al, he/she can watch them all and draw conclusions.
Maybe it's a case of the first horse they really remember making an indellible impression that will never be swayed. I could say I feel the same way about Dr. Fager, and have facts to back it up. None of that will ever prove he was greater than Secretariat, especially those using his incomparable Belmont as a measuring stick.

One race does not make a career and as great as Secretariat's Belmont was Citation's was just as good during his era. Secretariat had some brilliant performances and also had a few poor performances and lost to average horses. Affirmed raced against better competition and achieved more in his career. I would never consider a horse the greatest ever that never ran past 3.

[illinoisbred]

One race does not make a career and as great as Secretariat's Belmont was Citation's was just as good during his era. Secretariat had some brilliant performances and also had a few poor performances and lost to average horses. Affirmed raced against better competition and achieved more in his career. I would never consider a horse the greatest ever that never ran past 3.
Totally agree with you on calling a horse great that doesn't run as a 4 yr. old.With a truly great horse that's when you see what they are really made of-at 4 yrs. of age.

[RXB]

Secretariat's last six races as a 3YO were against older horses. Four dominating wins, two seconds.

[46zilzal]

Citation SHOULD have never come back after a severe injury at Tanforan and was never the same. Wright wanted him to be the first millionaire and brought him back.

[bisket]

Why ? We like to keep score that's why. But do you really believe Sham ran a better aka faster Derby than all the other winners over the last 35 years ? Is it possible that the track conditions that day were a bit fast ? I think Sham finishing a blink behind Secretariat says it all. Sham was no Alydar.
in shams defense it has been said that secratariat pretty much broke him in the belmont. the horse was never the same again after that. a mono on mono battle like that can break a horses competitivenous. a horse just can't keep getting beat like that repeatedly by the same horse when he's trying his best like sham was. i have felt for years that sham was champion possibly any other year except for that one. sham's trainer definately didn't do right by his horse!!

[SecretSquirrel]

in shams defense it has been said that secratariat pretty much broke him in the belmont. the horse was never the same again after that. a mono on mono battle like that can break a horses competitivenous. a horse just can't keep getting beat like that repeatedly by the same horse when he's trying his best like sham was. i have felt for years that sham was champion possibly any other year except for that one. sham's trainer definately didn't do right by his horse!!

Alydar finished second to Affirmed in each of the Triple Crown races and he still managed to have one of the all time great careers. It makes my point. Secretariat had to deal with Sham and Affirmed had to deal with Alydar. That is what makes Affirmed my choice for greatest ever.

I am still amazed how people talk about Sham. Never has a horse got so much attention winning one major race.

[Marshall Bennett]

Affirmed had to deal with Seattle Slew, Alydar, and Spectacular Bid at their best! Secretariat had to deal with Sham and Prove Out.
You must be kidding . Secretariat was a freak . You've been watching the races standing on your head .

[bisket]

well a case can actually be made that alydar was possibly the better horse. my take on affirmed is he just was a horse who had to be in front. i think the desire to be in front made up for a lack of ability. just one mans opinion, but that's been my take on affirmed. i think alydar was possibly faster, but in his mind he was saying here i am i'm running with him. to him it just wasn't important to be ahead. lots of times at this level jocks will tell you some horses are out there running there own race. they're just a passenger.

[Steve R]

Affirmed had to deal with Seattle Slew, Alydar, and Spectacular Bid at their best! Secretariat had to deal with Sham and Prove Out.
Have you forgotten about two-time champion (at 2 and 4) and dual classic winner Riva Ridge, 3yo champion Key to the Mint, grass champion Cougar II, Canadian HOY and champion at 2, 4 and 5 Kennedy Road plus a host of other high end G1SWs including Tentam, Big Spruce and West Coast Scout, among others. In his career, Secretariat faced a far more formidable collection of horses than Affirmed and he manhandled them. As far as I can tell, and as great as he was, the only horses of true star stature that Affirmed met in his career were Seattle Slew (which he lost to by open lengths as the odds-on favorite in the Marlboro Cup and then again in the JCGC (with a legitimate excuse)), Spectacular Bid (who wasn't really at his best until four and which he beat by less than a length at weight for age and at 3-5 odds when Affirmed was four and Spectacular Bid three), Exceller (which beat him in the JCGC) and Alydar (which he was simply better than). Overall, at two and three, Affirmed's competition was not as deep as Secretariat's. More importantly, Secretariat simply trounced the best older horses, champions and all, on both dirt and grass from a mile and an eighth to a mile and five-eighths. In terms of total career, of the horses I have actually seen in my lifetime, the top three would be Secretariat, Dr. Fager and Spectacular Bid. Affirmed is way up there but no challenge in my mind to the top three.

[joanied]

Have you forgotten about two-time champion (at 2 and 4) and dual classic winner Riva Ridge, 3yo champion Key to the Mint, grass champion Cougar II, Canadian HOY and champion at 2, 4 and 5 Kennedy Road plus a host of other high end G1SWs including Tentam, Big Spruce and West Coast Scout, among others. In his career, Secretariat faced a far more formidable collection of horses than Affirmed and he manhandled them. As far as I can tell, and as great as he was, the only horses of true star stature that Affirmed met in his career were Seattle Slew (which he lost to by open lengths as the odds-on favorite in the Marlboro Cup and then again in the JCGC (with a legitimate excuse)), Spectacular Bid (who wasn't really at his best until four and which he beat by less than a length at weight for age and at 3-5 odds when Affirmed was four and Spectacular Bid three), Exceller (which beat him in the JCGC) and Alydar (which he was simply better than). Overall, at two and three, Affirmed's competition was not as deep as Secretariat's. More importantly, Secretariat simply trounced the best older horses, champions and all, on both dirt and grass from a mile and an eighth to a mile and five-eighths. In terms of total career, of the horses I have actually seen in my lifetime, the top three would be Secretariat, Dr. Fager and Spectacular Bid. Affirmed is way up there but no challenge in my mind to the top three.

I'd like to give credit to several posters for 'telling it like it is'...but, I'll go with this one, Steve R...:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[joanied]

Let me see if I got this right. Affirmed at 3 was no match for one of the all time great horses Seattle Slew and Secretariat was no match for Prove Out. Huh?

You do realize Affirmed was HOY in 1979 and defeated one of the greatest horses ever with ease in Spectacular Bid.

How many races did Secretariat win carrying more than 130 lbs in his career?

Affirmed at 3 lost to Seattle Slew and Alydar Secretariat lost to Angle Light and Prove Out. Its not even close.

Beleive you me...if Big Red had run as a 4 year old...his weight assignments would have been huge...3 year olds do not carry weight assignments...so that part of your argument is moot.

[RXB]

I rate Secretariat above Affirmed but I can't knock Affirmed's competition. 10 races against Alydar, two races as a 3YO against the mighty 4YO Seattle Slew, and then a race as a 4YO against Spectacular Bid-- a fantastic horse even as a 3YO. That's as tough as any horse has ever faced.

[SecretSquirrel]

Have you forgotten about two-time champion (at 2 and 4) and dual classic winner Riva Ridge, 3yo champion Key to the Mint, grass champion Cougar II, Canadian HOY and champion at 2, 4 and 5 Kennedy Road plus a host of other high end G1SWs including Tentam, Big Spruce and West Coast Scout, among others. In his career, Secretariat faced a far more formidable collection of horses than Affirmed and he manhandled them. As far as I can tell, and as great as he was, the only horses of true star stature that Affirmed met in his career were Seattle Slew (which he lost to by open lengths as the odds-on favorite in the Marlboro Cup and then again in the JCGC (with a legitimate excuse)), Spectacular Bid (who wasn't really at his best until four and which he beat by less than a length at weight for age and at 3-5 odds when Affirmed was four and Spectacular Bid three), Exceller (which beat him in the JCGC) and Alydar (which he was simply better than). Overall, at two and three, Affirmed's competition was not as deep as Secretariat's. More importantly, Secretariat simply trounced the best older horses, champions and all, on both dirt and grass from a mile and an eighth to a mile and five-eighths. In terms of total career, of the horses I have actually seen in my lifetime, the top three would be Secretariat, Dr. Fager and Spectacular Bid. Affirmed is way up there but no challenge in my mind to the top three.

argue with anyone that feels Cougar or Big Spuce or Riva Ridge is on par with Spectacular Bid, Alydar, and Seattle Slew. By the way Affirmed had to face Alydar TEN TIMES. Riva Ridge ? Maybe you should refresh my memory and name all the G1 races Riva Ridge won as a 4 year old ??? Last time I counted it was ZERO.

[tucker6]

boy, a guy goes into a five hour meeting, and finds out a thread exploded. I can only add that some of the things Secret has said are astounding. I like Affirmed, but he was absolutely no match for Secretariat, and if he had raced him in 1973 as Sham did, he would have been broken too. Then we'd be reading another Secret person saying that Affirmed was a bum. :rolleyes:

[Steve R]

argue with anyone that feels Cougar or Big Spuce or Riva Ridge is on par with Spectacular Bid, Alydar, and Seattle Slew. By the way Affirmed had to face Alydar TEN TIMES. Riva Ridge ? Maybe you should refresh my memory and name all the G1 races Riva Ridge won as a 4 year old ??? Last time I counted it was ZERO.
Remedial math time for you, and a much needed lesson in racing history. I can't imagine where you are getting your information from. Riva Ridge and Cougar II look pretty awesome to me...and that's exactly how I remember them.

Apparently it doesn't matter to you how a horse runs against the competition, it's only which horses it runs against that matters. Again, Affirmed lost twice to Seattle Slew and never beat him. He defeated Spectacular Bid at weight-for-age by less than a length at 3-5 on the lead throughout in pokey fractions of :49.0 and 1:13.1, and it was the year before Spectacular Bid established himself as one of the true greats. For comparison:

1969 RIVA RIDGE, B.c., First Landing 30-17-3-1 $1,111,497 SSI=73.55
At 2 Won Garden State S (125,000), Champagne S (125,000), Futurity S (75,000), Pimlico-Laurel Futurity (50,000), Flash S (30,000)
At 3 Won Belmont S (125,000), Kentucky Derby (125,000), Hollywood Derby (100,000), Blue Grass S (40,000), Hibiscus S (25,000), 2nd Stymie H (25,000), 3rd Jockey Club Gold Cup (100,000)
At 4 Won Brooklyn H. -G1 (100,000), Stuyvesant H. -G2 (50,000), Massachusetts H. -G2 (50,000), 2nd Marlboro Cup H (250,000)

1966 *COUGAR 2ND, Dkb/br.c., =Tale Of Two Cities (GB) 38-15-7-12 $1,151,476 SSI=77.00
At 4 Won Escondido H *Nt (20,000), Cabrillo H*Nt (20,000), Pr Municipal De Vina Del Mar (CHI), Pr Thompson Matthews (CHI), Pr Republica Del Paraguay (CHI), 2nd Del Mar H *Nt (50,000), 3rd Oak Tree S (100,000), Manhattan H (50,000), El Derby (CHI), Pr Juan S. Jackson (CHI)
At 5 Won Ford Pinto Invitational Turf H (125,000), San Juan Capistrano Invitational H (125,000), Californian S (125,000), Oak Tree Invitational (100,000), San Marcos H (40,000), San Gabriel H (30,000), 2nd Sunset H (125,000), Santa Anita H (114,200), San Luis Obispo H (60,000), 3rd Century H (100,000), Woodward S (100,000)
At 6 Won Californian S (125,000), Oak Tree Invitational (100,000), Century H *Na (100,000), Carleton F. Burke H (50,000), 2nd Santa Anita H (125,000), San Juan Capistrano Invitational H (125,000), San Pasqual H (50,000), 3rd Hollywood Park Invitational Turf H (125,000), San Antonio S (75,000)
At 7 Won Sunset H. -G1 (125,000), Santa Anita H. -G1 (125,000), Century H. -G1 (100,000), 3rd Marlboro Cup H (250,000), Hollywood Gold Cup -G1 (150,000), San Juan Capistrano H. -G1 (125,000), Hollywood Invitational H. -G1 (125,000), Woodward S. -G1 (100,000), San Luis Rey S. -G1 (100,000)

1975 ALYDAR, Ch.c., Raise A Native 26 14 9 1 $957,195 SSI=49.61
At 2 Won Champagne S. -G1 (125,000), Sapling S. -G1 (50,000), Tremont S. (35,000), Great American S. (35,000), 2nd Hopeful S. -G1 (75,000), Remsen S. -G2 (75,000), Laurel Futurity -G1 (75,000), Futurity S. -G1 (75,000)
At 3 Won Florida Derby -G1 (150,000), Flamingo S. -G1 (100,000), Blue Grass S. -G1 (100,000), Travers S. -G1 (100,000), Arlington Classic S. -G2 (100,000), Whitney H. -G2 (75,000), 2nd Preakness S. -G1 (150,000), Belmont S. -G1 (150,000), Kentucky Derby -G1 (125,000)
At 4 Won Nassau County H. -G3 (50,000), 2nd Oaklawn H. -G2 (150,000), Carter H. -G2 (75,000), 3rd Suburban H. -G1 (125,000)

[SecretSquirrel]

Remedial math time for you, and a much needed lesson in racing history. I can't imagine where you are getting your information from. Riva Ridge and Cougar II look pretty awesome to me...and that's exactly how I remember them.

Apparently it doesn't matter to you how a horse runs against the competition, it's only which horses it runs against that matters. Again, Affirmed lost twice to Seattle Slew and never beat him. He defeated Spectacular Bid at weight-for-age by less than a length at 3-5 on the lead throughout in pokey fractions of :49.0 and 1:13.1, and it was the year before Spectacular Bid established himself as one of the true greats. For comparison:

1969 RIVA RIDGE, B.c., First Landing 30-17-3-1 $1,111,497 SSI=73.55
At 2 Won Garden State S (125,000), Champagne S (125,000), Futurity S (75,000), Pimlico-Laurel Futurity (50,000), Flash S (30,000)
At 3 Won Belmont S (125,000), Kentucky Derby (125,000), Hollywood Derby (100,000), Blue Grass S (40,000), Hibiscus S (25,000), 2nd Stymie H (25,000), 3rd Jockey Club Gold Cup (100,000)
At 4 Won Brooklyn H. -G1 (100,000), Stuyvesant H. -G2 (50,000), Massachusetts H. -G2 (50,000), 2nd Marlboro Cup H (250,000)

1966 *COUGAR 2ND, Dkb/br.c., =Tale Of Two Cities (GB) 38-15-7-12 $1,151,476 SSI=77.00
At 4 Won Escondido H *Nt (20,000), Cabrillo H*Nt (20,000), Pr Municipal De Vina Del Mar (CHI), Pr Thompson Matthews (CHI), Pr Republica Del Paraguay (CHI), 2nd Del Mar H *Nt (50,000), 3rd Oak Tree S (100,000), Manhattan H (50,000), El Derby (CHI), Pr Juan S. Jackson (CHI)
At 5 Won Ford Pinto Invitational Turf H (125,000), San Juan Capistrano Invitational H (125,000), Californian S (125,000), Oak Tree Invitational (100,000), San Marcos H (40,000), San Gabriel H (30,000), 2nd Sunset H (125,000), Santa Anita H (114,200), San Luis Obispo H (60,000), 3rd Century H (100,000), Woodward S (100,000)
At 6 Won Californian S (125,000), Oak Tree Invitational (100,000), Century H *Na (100,000), Carleton F. Burke H (50,000), 2nd Santa Anita H (125,000), San Juan Capistrano Invitational H (125,000), San Pasqual H (50,000), 3rd Hollywood Park Invitational Turf H (125,000), San Antonio S (75,000)
At 7 Won Sunset H. -G1 (125,000), Santa Anita H. -G1 (125,000), Century H. -G1 (100,000), 3rd Marlboro Cup H (250,000), Hollywood Gold Cup -G1 (150,000), San Juan Capistrano H. -G1 (125,000), Hollywood Invitational H. -G1 (125,000), Woodward S. -G1 (100,000), San Luis Rey S. -G1 (100,000)

1975 ALYDAR, Ch.c., Raise A Native 26 14 9 1 $957,195 SSI=49.61
At 2 Won Champagne S. -G1 (125,000), Sapling S. -G1 (50,000), Tremont S. (35,000), Great American S. (35,000), 2nd Hopeful S. -G1 (75,000), Remsen S. -G2 (75,000), Laurel Futurity -G1 (75,000), Futurity S. -G1 (75,000)
At 3 Won Florida Derby -G1 (150,000), Flamingo S. -G1 (100,000), Blue Grass S. -G1 (100,000), Travers S. -G1 (100,000), Arlington Classic S. -G2 (100,000), Whitney H. -G2 (75,000), 2nd Preakness S. -G1 (150,000), Belmont S. -G1 (150,000), Kentucky Derby -G1 (125,000)
At 4 Won Nassau County H. -G3 (50,000), 2nd Oaklawn H. -G2 (150,000), Carter H. -G2 (75,000), 3rd Suburban H. -G1 (125,000)

If you too wish to compare Riva Ridge and Cougar and Prove Out to SPECTACULAR BID, ALYDAR, and SEATTLE SLEW go right ahead. Nothing you can say or print will convince me they were anywhere near as good. I saw Spectacular Bid race several times and remember watching Seattle Slew tear them up at Hialeah in the Flamingo. Still had my winning ticket until a few years ago. There is simply no comparison. Seattle Slew, Alydar, and Spectacular Bid are all in the top 30 of all time greats. Where is Cougar, Prove Out, or Riva Ridge ??? Be serious...

[ghostyapper]

Clueless takes on a whole new meaning in this thread. We should ignore affirmed beating spectacular bid when he was 3yo because spectacular bid wasn't at his best until he was 4?

The bid was 1 of the best 3yo to ever race. And ignoring defeating Alydar just because he was simply better when alydar would have had 1 of the most dominating 3yo seasons ever without affirmed. Yea some people tell it like it is :lol:

[Steve R]

I rate Secretariat above Affirmed but I can't knock Affirmed's competition. 10 races against Alydar, two races as a 3YO against the mighty 4YO Seattle Slew, and then a race as a 4YO against Spectacular Bid-- a fantastic horse even as a 3YO. That's as tough as any horse has ever faced.
You are joking, right? No horse in history ever faced a tougher group of horses than Sea-Bird did in the 1965 Arc de Triomphe. He faced five other classic winners from four countries, equaled the course record and won by six lengths eased in the final 100 yards. The meeting of Damascus, Dr. Fager AND Buckpasser in the 1967 Woodward towers over any single matchup Affirmed was ever involved in. Furthermore, the four meetings (split 2-2) between Dr. Fager and Damascus, considering they were ranked 6th and 16th on the all-time list by an expert panel convened by the Blood-Horse, were probably superior to the Affirmed-Alydar rivalry as these were ranked 14th and 27th.

[dav4463]

Man O War is the greatest ever.

[ghostyapper]

You are joking, right? No horse in history ever faced a tougher group of horses than Sea-Bird did in the 1965 Arc de Triomphe. He faced five other classic winners from four countries, equaled the course record and won by six lengths eased in the final 100 yards. The meeting of Damascus, Dr. Fager AND Buckpasser in the 1967 Woodward towers over any single matchup Affirmed was ever involved in. Furthermore, the four meetings (split 2-2) between Dr. Fager and Damascus, considering they were ranked 6th and 16th on the all-time list by an expert panel convened by the Blood-Horse, were probably superior to the Affirmed-Alydar rivalry as these were ranked 14th and 27th.

You just love rambling on don't you. The post was in response to your nonsense that secretariat faced much tougher than affirmed. Now you are rambling on about dr. fager. :eek:

[RXB]

You are joking, right? No horse in history ever faced a tougher group of horses than Sea-Bird did in the 1965 Arc de Triomphe. He faced five other classic winners from four countries, equaled the course record and won by six lengths eased in the final 100 yards. The meeting of Damascus, Dr. Fager AND Buckpasser in the 1967 Woodward towers over any single matchup Affirmed was ever involved in. Furthermore, the four meetings (split 2-2) between Dr. Fager and Damascus, considering they were ranked 6th and 16th on the all-time list by an expert panel convened by the Blood-Horse, were probably superior to the Affirmed-Alydar rivalry as these were ranked 14th and 27th.

Did Dr. Fager hook Damascus 10 times? Nope, only four. How many times did Seabird run, period?

You're right that Sec was a better horse, but why the baseless slights toward Affirmed?

You mention Affirmed's 4YO advantage over Bid but conveniently leave it out when discussing Slew-vs.-Affirmed.

As far as how he ran against that competition, here's a reminder:

13 starts against three truly great horses

8 wins
4 seconds
1 saddle slip (wasn't going to win anyway, but he wouldn't have been defeated nearly as badly)

Find any horse that 13 times hooked the calibre of Bid/Slew/Alydar. To win eight of those is a great feat.

Finally, what do I care about what the "panel" thinks? They ranked Forego as a better horse than Spectacular Bid.

[Cratos]

Have you forgotten about two-time champion (at 2 and 4) and dual classic winner Riva Ridge, 3yo champion Key to the Mint, grass champion Cougar II, Canadian HOY and champion at 2, 4 and 5 Kennedy Road plus a host of other high end G1SWs including Tentam, Big Spruce and West Coast Scout, among others. In his career, Secretariat faced a far more formidable collection of horses than Affirmed and he manhandled them. As far as I can tell, and as great as he was, the only horses of true star stature that Affirmed met in his career were Seattle Slew (which he lost to by open lengths as the odds-on favorite in the Marlboro Cup and then again in the JCGC (with a legitimate excuse)), Spectacular Bid (who wasn't really at his best until four and which he beat by less than a length at weight for age and at 3-5 odds when Affirmed was four and Spectacular Bid three), Exceller (which beat him in the JCGC) and Alydar (which he was simply better than). Overall, at two and three, Affirmed's competition was not as deep as Secretariat's. More importantly, Secretariat simply trounced the best older horses, champions and all, on both dirt and grass from a mile and an eighth to a mile and five-eighths. In terms of total career, of the horses I have actually seen in my lifetime, the top three would be Secretariat, Dr. Fager and Spectacular Bid. Affirmed is way up there but no challenge in my mind to the top three.

Steve,

You have presented credible evidence to debunk the spurious argument about the comparison between Secretariat and Affirmed in a non-bias fashion, but this is an argument that you nor I or anyone else on this forum can win because it is debating someone who I believe knows all, but know nothing at all.

I am an ardent supporter of one’s freedom to believe whatever they want, but when that belief becomes irrational I stop and with this poster I quit.

[SecretSquirrel]

You are joking, right? No horse in history ever faced a tougher group of horses than Sea-Bird did in the 1965 Arc de Triomphe. He faced five other classic winners from four countries, equaled the course record and won by six lengths eased in the final 100 yards. The meeting of Damascus, Dr. Fager AND Buckpasser in the 1967 Woodward towers over any single matchup Affirmed was ever involved in. Furthermore, the four meetings (split 2-2) between Dr. Fager and Damascus, considering they were ranked 6th and 16th on the all-time list by an expert panel convened by the Blood-Horse, were probably superior to the Affirmed-Alydar rivalry as these were ranked 14th and 27th.

That is an all time great race for you ??? They sent in a stablemate to cook Dr. Fager and it wasn't even a race !!! Damascus won by a mile thanks to a rabbit. You really want to compare that to the great races between Alydar and Affirmed. lol... I am speechless. We are all entitled to our own opinions no matter how wrong they are.

[Steve R]

If you too wish to compare Riva Ridge and Cougar and Prove Out to SPECTACULAR BID, ALYDAR, and SEATTLE SLEW go right ahead. Nothing you can say or print will convince me they were anywhere near as good. I saw Spectacular Bid race several times and remember watching Seattle Slew tear them up at Hialeah in the Flamingo. Still had my winning ticket until a few years ago. There is simply no comparison. Seattle Slew, Alydar, and Spectacular Bid are all in the top 30 of all time greats. Where is Cougar, Prove Out, or Riva Ridge ??? Be serious...
Do you even understand the words you're writing? The matchups you're talking about were essentially one on one with the remainder of the fields being comprised of solid handicap types. Secretariat faced four other champions and two other classic winners in the Marlboro Cup and he set a world record beating them while ridden out. Affirmed sucked both times he faced Seattle Slew and as good as Spectacular Bid may have been at three, Affirmed was still 3-5 to beat him. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, Affirmed was an overwhelming choice to beat Spectacular Bid, so obviously the best handicappers in the world (the public) didn't consider him quite as formidable a challenge as you do. And in his entire career, Affirmed set one track record in 29 races. Secretariat set five in 21 races on both dirt and turf, including two world records.

I know. There was a conspiracy to make Secretariat look good, so all of his best races were setups.

[SecretSquirrel]

Steve,

You have presented credible evidence to debunk the spurious argument about the comparison between Secretariat and Affirmed in a non-bias fashion, but this is an argument that you nor I or anyone else on this forum can win because it is debating someone who I believe knows all, but know nothing at all.

I am an ardent supporter of one’s freedom to believe whatever they want, but when that belief becomes irrational I stop and with this poster I quit.

Look no one is going to change my mind. I said coming in I felt Affirmed was the better horse and his accomplishments prove that. Affirmed surpassed honors earned by Secretariat because he raced at 4 and dominated. Both champion 2 and 3 year olds but affirmed when on to be a champion 4 year old and Secretariat did not.

The fact is Secretariat lost 3 times to average horses at 3 including losing to a average older horse while giving Secretariat 7 lbs.

Affirmed also lost 3 times but lost to the likes of Seattle Slew and Alydar. Two of the all time greatest horses.

My point is a simple one Secretariat lost to average horses at 3 while Affirmed lost to a couple of the all time greats. TO ME that along with the fact he was HOY at 4 makes Affirmed greater than Secretariat.

Nothing you can say can make up for Secretariat losing to some horse named Onion, Angle Light, or Prove Out.

[RXB]

Nothing you can say can make up for Secretariat losing to some horse named Onion, Angle Light, or Prove Out.

Affirmed lost to Little Reb and Radar Ahead.

Why can't people be reasonable?

[Cratos]

[QUOTE=Nothing you can say can make up for Secretariat losing to some horse named Onion, Angle Light, or Prove Out.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Affirmed lose as a 4yo to "some horse" named Radar Ahead and Little Reb and did not Radar Ahead finished in front of Affirmed twice?

Again, correct me because I don't remember any horse finishing in front of Secretariat twice.

[joanied]

Man...I think SecretSquirrel joined just to find some sort of battle ground...my goodness:faint:

[SecretSquirrel]

Affirmed lost to Little Reb and Radar Ahead.

Why can't people be reasonable?

At 2 ? Lol... and Secretariat lost to Herbull and Master Achiever...lol....

[RXB]

At 4.

[Steve R]

That is an all time great race for you ??? They sent in a stablemate to cook Dr. Fager and it wasn't even a race !!! Damascus won by a mile thanks to a rabbit. You really want to compare that to the great races between Alydar and Affirmed. lol... I am speechless. We are all entitled to our own opinions no matter how wrong they are.
I don't get it. Before you were talking about the absolute quality of the competition. Now you're talking about how the race played out and concluding from the result that the field really wasn't all that competitive. Get a grip. Going into the Woodward there had probably never been three horses of such quality in a single event in the history of American racing, the 6th, 13th and 16th greatest of all time according to the rankings.

Your debating tactics are all over the place. Stay on topic. First you insisted Riva Ridge didn't win any G1 races at four, emphasizing ZERO. You were wrong. Now you're telling me a rabbit negates the fact that the Woodward field was one of the greatest ever. I guess when Affirmed's saddle slipped in the JCGC, that field wasn't any good anymore either. So in essence, that leaves Affirmed's 4yo campaign highlighted by a drubbing from Seattle Slew and a narrow, slow-paced WTW win as an overwhelming odds-on favorite over the younger Spectacular Bid.

Thanks, but I'll stick with Secretariat

[SecretSquirrel]

Man...I think SecretSquirrel joined just to find some sort of battle ground...my goodness:faint:

But when you compare who Secretariat lost to vs. who Affirmed lost to at 3 it's not much of a comparison. All three that Affirmed lost to are in the Bloodhorse top 100 horses of all time. None of the horses that beat Secretariat at 3 are in the top 100 so it just seems silly to try and compare and say Secretariat faced better or equal competition.

Secretariat got beat by average horses at 3. Affirmed lost to 3 of the all time greats at 3.

[appistappis]

"he's moving like a tremendous machine"...............and he was the absolute greatest ever.

[Marshall Bennett]

" But Secretariat is all alone " .... indeed !!

[SecretSquirrel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9U4JVrr_Q

[Steve R]

You just love rambling on don't you. The post was in response to your nonsense that secretariat faced much tougher than affirmed. Now you are rambling on about dr. fager. :eek:
In addition to not knowing much about racing other than what you make up, you truly are, as one earlier poster noted in this or another thread, the leading contender for AOY. What I find especially amusing is how you interpret things based on "facts" you simply fabricate. Obviously you will always be right when you create your own reality. Try arguing from historical fact for a change, or is that too much of a bother? I really think you do enjoy playing the fool. Maybe it's the only way you can get the attention you seem to crave so desperately.

[ghostyapper]

In addition to not knowing much about racing other than what you make up, you truly are, as one earlier poster noted in this or another thread, the leading contender for AOY. What I find especially amusing is how you interpret things based on "facts" you simply fabricate. Obviously you will always be right when you create your own reality. Try arguing from historical fact for a change, or is that too much of a bother? I really think you do enjoy playing the fool. Maybe it's the only way you can get the attention you seem to crave so desperately.

Facts? Your facts consist of who is rated higher on the bloodhorse top 100 yet you ignore the list when it doesn't support your argument how riva ridge was better competition than alydar or bid. As already stated you are quick to point out how affirmed beat bid at 3 but make no mention of it when citing affirmed vs slew.

I still laugh over the "he was simply better than alydar" excuse in downplaying his competition. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

[ghostyapper]

I

Your debating tactics are all over the place. Stay on topic.

Hilarious coming from someone who went into a ramble about dr. fager and sea bird when discussing the competition that secretariat and affirmed faced . http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gifhttp://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

[Cratos]

That is an all time great race for you ??? They sent in a stablemate to cook Dr. Fager and it wasn't even a race !!! Damascus won by a mile thanks to a rabbit. You really want to compare that to the great races between Alydar and Affirmed. lol... I am speechless. We are all entitled to our own opinions no matter how wrong they are.

You are right, there was a “rabbit” (Hevedar) in the race because it was rumored that Frank Whiteley, Damascus trainer believed at level weights the Doctor would be the best. And I think Kenny Koe, Jr who was NYRA’s racing secretary at the time might have believed the same thing because in their final meeting Dr. Fager toted 135 pounds to Damascus's 130 pounds in the then 1 ¼ mile Brooklyn Hcp and set the pace with a 1:34 and change time for the mile before faltering and losing to Damascus.

This happened after Dr. Fager had beaten Damascus in the 1 ¼ mile Suburban with a one pound advantage.

Please tell me how any of this diminishes Steve’s argument.

[ghostyapper]

that leaves Affirmed's 4yo campaign highlighted by a drubbing from Seattle Slew and a narrow, slow-paced WTW win as an overwhelming odds-on favorite over the younger Spectacular Bid.

Thanks, but I'll stick with Secretariat

LOL more "facts" from the expert. Affirmed faced slew when he was 3 not 4. Continue on professor

[ghostyapper]

boy, a guy goes into a five hour meeting, and finds out a thread exploded. I can only add that some of the things Secret has said are astounding. I like Affirmed, but he was absolutely no match for Secretariat, and if he had raced him in 1973 as Sham did, he would have been broken too. Then we'd be reading another Secret person saying that Affirmed was a bum. :rolleyes:

You love using race times so how about this one?

Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 2 in the hollywood gc. Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 3 in the sa handicap.

Yup he would have been no match

[46zilzal]

William Nack, the author of many of the great books on Big Red, was a voter on the Blood Horse top 100 and reported that one person on the committee was so determined that Man O'War should retain his spot as the best of the previous century, he actually ranked Secretariat 15th in order to have HIS vision elevated over the final rankings.

On any subjective listing, to eliminate this obvious bias, the top and bottom on anyone's list should be discarded.

I have talked to horsemen from around the world and the best son of Bold Ruler is always at the top, even if many of the disgruntled Europeans have to bite their tongues doing it, but have to agree.

Even the Australians, who were the recipient of one of his best sons who holds that track record in the Melbourne Cup (Kingston Rule) sing his praises. And this coming from men who used to yell at the American troops during WWII: "Hey yank, why did you guys kill Phar Lap?"

[tucker6]

You love using race times so how about this one?

Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 2 in the hollywood gc. Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 3 in the sa handicap.

Yup he would have been no match
we agree that Secretariat at 3 had better splits at 10F on the runout after a race than Affirmed did at 4 during a race. Thanks for supporting me. Better luck next time.

[46zilzal]

You love using race times so how about this one?

Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 2 in the hollywood gc. Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 3 in the sa handicap.

Yup he would have been no match
Times alone mean nothing as one has no idea the battle that ensued before that time went up.

Some horses, and I think Red was one of them, was rarely pushed to his limit while 100%. Don't think we ever saw him pushed to the limit. Now as tenacious as Affirmed was, we might have seen that had the two met on the same surface.

[ghostyapper]

we agree that Secretariat at 3 had better splits at 10F on the runout after a race than Affirmed did at 4 during a race. Thanks for supporting me. Better luck next time.

Advice. It's best to not respond at all rather than a weak one like this where you say nothing but still make it seem like you are right all along.

Secretariats derby and 10 furlong split in the belmont were both slower. Like I said secretariat was the better horse but your immature opinion of an all time great like affirmed being no match show's your lack of knowledge on the history of the game.

[tucker6]

Advice. It's best to not respond at all rather than a weak one like this where you say nothing but still make it seem like you are right all along.

Secretariats derby and 10 furlong split in the belmont were both slower. Like I said secretariat was the better horse but your immature opinion of an all time great like affirmed being no match show's your lack of knowledge on the history of the game.
normally I'd have hurt feelings reading something like this, but since it's coming from someone who is usually clueless about all things racing, well ....

[ghostyapper]

normally I'd have hurt feelings reading something like this, but since it's coming from someone who is usually clueless about all things racing, well ....

and yet another post where you display absolutely no knowledge of the sport and just try to take shots at people. I bet you were a big aol chat room person back in the day.

Pick up a book some time, there were plenty of great racehorses besides secretariat.

[statik27]

Alydar is only considered great BECAUSE of Affirmed, the Bid didn't hit his best stride until he was 4, and Seattle Slew was a beast.

We all have are favorites, but trying to argue that Affirmed was better then the anointed one is nonsensical.

[tucker6]

and yet another post where you display absolutely no knowledge of the sport and just try to take shots at people. I bet you were a big aol chat room person back in the day.

Pick up a book some time, there were plenty of great racehorses besides secretariat.
pot meet kettle :lol:

As many on here say, you are at the bottom of the board totem pole. :lol:

[tucker6]

You love using race times so how about this one?

Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 2 in the hollywood gc. Affirmed 10 furlongs in 1.58 and 3 in the sa handicap.

Yup he would have been no match
Read this r e a l slow. In the 1973 Marlboro Cup, Secretariat set a WR for 1-1/8 miles at 1:45:40. During the runout after the end of the race, Secretariat was clocked getting the next furlong in 12 seconds. That gets him to 1:57:40. So according to your own writings above, Secretariat is significantly better than Affirmed. He did that without being whipped. He did it cooling down. He did it without being challenged down the stretch.

Okay, now respond with something witty. Or not! :lol:

[ghostyapper]

Read this r e a l slow. In the 1973 Marlboro Cup, Secretariat set a WR for 1-1/8 miles at 1:45:40. During the runout after the end of the race, Secretariat was clocked getting the next furlong in 12 seconds. That gets him to 1:57:40. So according to your own writings above, Secretariat is significantly better than Affirmed. He did that without being whipped. He did it cooling down. He did it without being challenged down the stretch.

Okay, now respond with something witty. Or not! :lol:

LOL according to my logic? I only brought up those times because that's all you ever do to show who is better. You actually rank prove outs woodward higher than affirmed's belmont simply on time of finish.

The sad thing is neither you or steve r probably had any idea affirmed ran two 10 furlong races that fast. Now you are using an unofficial runout time to try and cover up. Very sad but I guess whatever you gotta do to get the last word (though you will learn in time that the last word means squat)

Try focusing more on presenting a stronger arguments before you make ridiculous comments rather than only trying to get the last word to look smart.

[tucker6]

LOL according to my logic? I only brought up those times because that's all you ever do to show who is better. You actually rank prove outs woodward higher than affirmed's belmont simply on time of finish.

The sad thing is neither you or steve r probably had any idea affirmed ran two 10 furlong races that fast. Now you are using an unofficial runout time to try and cover up. Very sad but I guess whatever you gotta do to get the last word (though you will learn in time that the last word means squat)

Try focusing more on presenting a stronger arguments before you make ridiculous comments rather than only trying to get the last word to look smart.
Wouldn't it be easier to post less and read more to limit the number of times per day you get schooled about horse racing?? This is your sport right?? You should be more of an expert right?? In every thread I read, you're gagging at the bottom of the pile. Give up already. :faint:

[tucker6]

You actually rank prove outs woodward higher than affirmed's belmont simply on time of finish.


Isn't time of finish one of the criteria? Maybe it's the post parade that provides the deciding vote on ranking?? Or perhaps its the color on the silks. Sorry, gotta go. I need to read up on my silk patterns.

[Hank]

Not that anyone asked, but off the top of my head, Secretariat's Belmont and Seattle Slew's losing effort to Exceller in the '78 JCGC sit atop my list of the greatest individual performances ever (that I've seen, but not in person).

I agree:eek:.Slew's great courage in the JCGC ,and Big Red's Herculean effort in the Belmont are two for the time capsule.:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[SecretSquirrel]

Alydar is only considered great BECAUSE of Affirmed, the Bid didn't hit his best stride until he was 4, and Seattle Slew was a beast.

We all have are favorites, but trying to argue that Affirmed was better then the anointed one is nonsensical.

Alydar was considered great because of what he did on and off the track. Alydar was a very successful Stallion too. But winning 14 out of 26 races and losing 7 of them to Affirmed speaks for itself.

[Irish Boy]

Pepper's Pride.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Pick up a book some time, there were plenty of great racehorses besides secretariat.


You mean plenty of other great racehorses that did great things on the track like Rachel Alexandra???

I guess since she hasn't hit the bookstore yet,not allowed to enjoy the horse.You're a posthumous fan,I forgot.

[SecretSquirrel]

You mean plenty of other great racehorses that did great things on the track like Rachel Alexandra???

I guess since she hasn't hit the bookstore yet,not allowed to enjoy the horse.You're a posthumous fan,I forgot.

Where would you place Rachel's 3 year old season compared to the greats ? True she didn't win a Triple Crown but she did a few things the greats didn't. She beat the best young fillies, the best young colts, and the best older horses. AND she did it undefeated going 8 for 8. I always wondered how Desert Vixen would fair against Secretariat at 1 1/8.

[Paseana]

This thread is amazing! 175 posts and nearly 3,000 views!

True, a lot of these posts have been just personal arguments, and that's what happens on boards like this in the internet age. But the bottom line is that racing has a bunch of really scrappy fans that love their horses!

It's been 36 years now since Secretariat came down that stretch to win by 31 lengths. 36 years since he was on the cover of Time, Newsweek, and Sports Illustrated in the same week. And after 36 years.....right now....he is a source of controversy in this very thread.

We, as racing fans, are not visible on the sports scene any more. But there is no sport anywhere that generates the passion that we have for this game. And the respect we have for our history makes us so much better than any point spread out there.

It really doesn't matter who they run against. They inspire us just because they are living and breathing creatures that either win or not. One of my favorite horses ever was a $10K claimer named Sing Because. Cheap horse he was but he didn't know it. He won his last race as a 10 year old!

Was Secretariat the greatest? I think he was. But the greatest thing about threads like this is that 36 years later, we're still arguing about it

Go Dublin!! :)

[bcgreg]

This thread is amazing! 175 posts and nearly 3,000 views!

True, a lot of these posts have been just personal arguments, and that's what happens on boards like this in the internet age. But the bottom line is that racing has a bunch of really scrappy fans that love their horses!

It's been 36 years now since Secretariat came down that stretch to win by 31 lengths. 36 years since he was on the cover of Time, Newsweek, and Sports Illustrated in the same week. And after 36 years.....right now....he is a source of controversy in this very thread.

We, as racing fans, are not visible on the sports scene any more. But there is no sport anywhere that generates the passion that we have for this game. And the respect we have for our history makes us so much better than any point spread out there.

It really doesn't matter who they run against. They inspire us just because they are living and breathing creatures that either win or not. One of my favorite horses ever was a $10K claimer named Sing Because. Cheap horse he was but he didn't know it. He won his last race as a 10 year old!

Was Secretariat the greatest? I think he was. But the greatest thing about threads like this is that 36 years later, we're still arguing about it

Go Dublin!! :)

An excellent post! I will only add the following...

We were blessed in the 60's and 70's with many great races and horses. For probably most of us, this is the time when our memories of horse racing began. We have our heroes, and we are fighting mad when someone dare suggest that he/she was not the greatest.

I will shut up after I say this....I wish/hope that 13 year old Billy and 14 year old Susie and 16 year old Bobby, going to the track with dad (well, I still go to the track sometimes) will have "their" heroes to remember...just like we do.

And yes, Secretariat WAS the greatest racehorse ever to set foot on a racetrack! LOL!

bcgreg

[Java Gold@TFT]

OK, so this thread blew up yesterday after I went offline for a family picnic. Why do the more logical and reasonable members of this forum continue to feed the ill informed opinions (not Facts) of ghosty and squirelly? Neither has shown they have a clue. Squirelly likes to include Slew in Affirmed's list of accomplishments but he never beat Slew. He likes to include a 3yo Bid but Bid was better at 4 and as pointed out previoulsy the betting public thought Affirmed was a valid 3-5 favorite to beat Bid so it was nothing unexpected. He also never responded to the embarrassing losses to start out Affirmed's 4yo season but loves to point out the Grade - I stakes winners who beat Secretariat. It's also convenient to forget that Forego finished 4th in the 1973 KY Derby. He's a racing HOF member who was better at 5 than 3. So why the distinction between beating Bid and beating Forego. The initial running of the Marlboro Cup was indeed the best field of horses assembled for one race at the time. Steve R has already pointed out their combined accomplishments. Watch the race and listen to the names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huOmZH3G-Dc

If you don't know of horses like Kennedy Road, Cougar and that year's Travers winner Annihilate 'Em then you can Google them.

As far as comparing times in Cal in the 70's compared to CD or Belmont, that is just a joke. Read Beyer's first book or better yet Gordon Jones To Win. Everyone knew that the So Cal tracks during that time were pavement. To compare any race run on those highways to races at CD, Belmont, Saratoga or Woodbine is just heaping praise on yourself for looking up a race time.

[tucker6]

The initial running of the Marlboro Cup was indeed the best field of horses assembled for one race at the time. Steve R has already pointed out their combined accomplishments. Watch the race and listen to the names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huOmZH3G-Dc

If you don't know of horses like Kennedy Road, Cougar and that year's Travers winner Annihilate 'Em then you can Google them.


I noted the following comment below the video:

What's truly amazing also is Turcotte hand riding Secretariat in this race! Has anyone considered that Big Red's finish here would put him 15 lengths in front of Rachel Alexandra's mile and 1/8th in the Woodward??? That's how great Big Red was!!!

That gives some additional perspective on this particular race as well as this year's Woodward. I know races aren't created equal due to conditions and how the field sets up, but that was some race.

[Java Gold@TFT]

I noted the following comment below the video:

What's truly amazing also is Turcotte hand riding Secretariat in this race! Has anyone considered that Big Red's finish here would put him 15 lengths in front of Rachel Alexandra's mile and 1/8th in the Woodward??? That's how great Big Red was!!!

That gives some additional perspective on this particular race as well as this year's Woodward. I know races aren't created equal due to conditions and how the field sets up, but that was some race.
I'm on your side of this but Secretariat's Marlboro Cup was a one turn race at Belmont and Rachel's Woodward was a two turn race at Sarartoga. Track record at Saratoga for 9F still goes back to Tri Jet at 1:47. Tough to compare times.

[tucker6]

I'm on your side of this but Secretariat's Marlboro Cup was a one turn race at Belmont and Rachel's Woodward was a two turn race at Sarartoga. Track record at Saratoga for 9F still goes back to Tri Jet at 1:47. Tough to compare times.
damn, I forgot that the Woodward was a one turn race. Thanks for reminding me. That does change things a little. I guess one should be careful doing a copy/paste of someone else's thoughts.

Sorry to hear about Kona yesterday Java.

[ghostyapper]

I guess one should be careful doing a copy/paste of someone else's thoughts

Someone else's thoughts? You are the one who has repeatately used final time as the ultimate judge of a horses performance

[ghostyapper]

Track record at Saratoga for 9F still goes back to Tri .

It's lawyer ron's now at 1.46:6

[Java Gold@TFT]

damn, I forgot that the Woodward was a one turn race. Thanks for reminding me. That does change things a little. I guess one should be careful doing a copy/paste of someone else's thoughts.

Sorry to hear about Kona yesterday Java.
Thanks, Like I said in another thread I felt so good about Kona representing Java Gold as his best son to race.

Despite my defense of Secretariat in this thread, my all time three favorite horses who I have seen multiple times in my life in person are Affirmed, Java Gold and Easy Goer. They each had a certain prescence about them. Java Gold was a little more professional but Affirmed and Easy Goer absolutley KNEW they were special when I saw them in the paddock. They wanted to look around at everything and pose for cameras. Those who want to argue about times and who beat who without actually seeing the horses race and seeing the way they present themselves and the way that the fans of racing on the track receive them are just missing out on the greatest part of being a racing fan.

[ghostyapper]

OK, so this thread blew up yesterday after I went offline for a family picnic. Why do the more logical and reasonable members of this forum continue to feed the ill informed opinions (not Facts) of ghosty and squirelly? Neither has shown they have a clue. Squirelly likes to include Slew in Affirmed's list of accomplishments but he never beat Slew. He likes to include a 3yo Bid but Bid was better at 4 and as pointed out previoulsy the betting public thought Affirmed was a valid 3-5 favorite to beat Bid so it was nothing unexpected. He also never responded to the embarrassing losses to start out Affirmed's 4yo season but loves to point out the Grade - I stakes winners who beat Secretariat. It's also convenient to forget that Forego finished 4th in the 1973 KY Derby. He's a racing HOF member who was better at 5 than 3. So why the distinction between beating Bid and beating Forego. The initial running of the Marlboro Cup was indeed the best field of horses assembled for one race at the time. Steve R has already pointed out their combined accomplishments. Watch the race and listen to the names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huOmZH3G-Dc

If you don't know of horses like Kennedy Road, Cougar and that year's Travers winner Annihilate 'Em then you can Google them.

As far as comparing times in Cal in the 70's compared to CD or Belmont, that is just a joke. Read Beyer's first book or better yet Gordon Jones To Win. Everyone knew that the So Cal tracks during that time were pavement. To compare any race run on those highways to races at CD, Belmont, Saratoga or Woodbine is just heaping praise on yourself for looking up a race time.

I have already stated that Squirelly is wrong for considering affirmed a better horse based on the average horses that secretariat lost to. But some of the arguments that steve r or others have made are ridiculous but you have no problem ignorning those. He ignores the fierce competition of alydar simply because "he was better." He ignores the competition of bid simply because he was a 3yo and the pace of the race, yet brings up how affirmed lost to slew with no mention that affirmed was a 3yo. He also states that affirmed lost to slew when affirmed was 4, guess you can ignore that as well.

And now you are trying to throw cold water on affirmed's fantastic times in 2 10 furlong (yea I now that distance is meaningless) races because ca tracks were highways. Yet no mention that the times of sham in the derby and prove out in the woodward have stood for 30-40 years so obviously belmont and cd were playing fast for secretariats races that year.

[FenceBored]

I have already stated that Squirelly is wrong for considering affirmed a better horse based on the average horses that secretariat lost to. But some of the arguments that steve r or others have made are ridiculous but you have no problem ignorning those. He ignores the fierce competition of alydar simply because "he was better." He ignores the competition of bid simply because he was a 3yo and the pace of the race, yet brings up how affirmed lost to slew with no mention that affirmed was a 3yo. He also states that affirmed lost to slew when affirmed was 4, guess you can ignore that as well.

And now you are trying to throw cold water on affirmed's fantastic times in 2 10 furlong (yea I now that distance is meaningless) races because ca tracks were highways. Yet no mention that the times of sham in the derby and prove out in the woodward have stood for 30-40 years so obviously belmont and cd were playing fast for secretariats races that year.

I'm going to regret this, but ... What do you mean "the time(s) of ... prove out in the woodward have stood for 30-40 years?" The Woodward was only run at 12f for 4 years 72-75. Yeah, it's real hard for a stakes record at a particular distance to stand when they haven't run the race at that distance for 34 years. :rolleyes:

[phatbastard]

i'll still take ''the good Doctor'' against any horse who wore a bridle in a fair fight [ no rabbits ]

[ghostyapper]

I'm going to regret this, but ... What do you mean "the time(s) of ... prove out in the woodward have stood for 30-40 years?" The Woodward was only run at 12f for 4 years 72-75. Yeah, it's real hard for a stakes record at a particular distance to stand when they haven't run the race at that distance for 34 years. :rolleyes:

Meaning 12 furlongs at belmont.

[Java Gold@TFT]

I have already stated that Squirelly is wrong for considering affirmed a better horse based on the average horses that secretariat lost to. But some of the arguments that steve r or others have made are ridiculous but you have no problem ignorning those. He ignores the fierce competition of alydar simply because "he was better." He ignores the competition of bid simply because he was a 3yo and the pace of the race, yet brings up how affirmed lost to slew with no mention that affirmed was a 3yo. He also states that affirmed lost to slew when affirmed was 4, guess you can ignore that as well.

And now you are trying to throw cold water on affirmed's fantastic times in 2 10 furlong (yea I now that distance is meaningless) races because ca tracks were highways. Yet no mention that the times of sham in the derby and prove out in the woodward have stood for 30-40 years so obviously belmont and cd were playing fast for secretariats races that year.
I wasn't ignoring anything that Steve R posted at all. I was simply responding to the contradictions of Squirelly. 3yo's vs 4yo's? Ferdinand beat Alysheba, Seattle Slew beat Affirmed, Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid, etc To say that Affirmed is better because he raced against Slew (and lost) and Bid is just a shot at Squirrley's understanding of racing history.

As far as times, I will always stand by the statement that evry handciapper who was just understanding spped figures in the 70's will deinitivly say that the So Cal tracks were paved highways at the time. Day in and day out. In gordon Jones original book he gave a speed variant of -5 to both SA and Holraces up to 9F. Athe sme time he gave 0's to Belmont when using his par times. That book was written in 1975 or 1976 and he was a So Cal guy so I don't think he was being prejudiced.

[SecretSquirrel]

OK, so this thread blew up yesterday after I went offline for a family picnic. Why do the more logical and reasonable members of this forum continue to feed the ill informed opinions (not Facts) of ghosty and squirelly? Neither has shown they have a clue. Squirelly likes to include Slew in Affirmed's list of accomplishments but he never beat Slew. He likes to include a 3yo Bid but Bid was better at 4 and as pointed out previoulsy the betting public thought Affirmed was a valid 3-5 favorite to beat Bid so it was nothing unexpected. He also never responded to the embarrassing losses to start out Affirmed's 4yo season but loves to point out the Grade - I stakes winners who beat Secretariat. It's also convenient to forget that Forego finished 4th in the 1973 KY Derby. He's a racing HOF member who was better at 5 than 3. So why the distinction between beating Bid and beating Forego. The initial running of the Marlboro Cup was indeed the best field of horses assembled for one race at the time. Steve R has already pointed out their combined accomplishments. Watch the race and listen to the names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huOmZH3G-Dc

If you don't know of horses like Kennedy Road, Cougar and that year's Travers winner Annihilate 'Em then you can Google them.

As far as comparing times in Cal in the 70's compared to CD or Belmont, that is just a joke. Read Beyer's first book or better yet Gordon Jones To Win. Everyone knew that the So Cal tracks during that time were pavement. To compare any race run on those highways to races at CD, Belmont, Saratoga or Woodbine is just heaping praise on yourself for looking up a race time.


The only thing I can think of its that some of you were not alive in 1973 and simply have no idea what the MARLBORO CUP really was. It was a corporate event put on FOR SECRETARIAT !!! The race was set up by the corporation to be a match race between Riva Ridge and Secretariat but BOTH had just lost to two nobodies ! Witchita Oil had just beaten a tired Riva Ridge a 56 to 1 shot so the race needed some other horses to throw in. They rushed to bring in a few other names and gave them GUARANTEED money just to run because they wanted the public to see Secretariat run. Many of you hold this race up like it was something special. The track was made LIGHTING fast for Secretariat and he ran a 145.40 a time that could have been matched by a filly this year in the Mother Goose had she not been eased 200 yards before the wire.

Secretariat had 4 fantastic races as a 3 year old and that was pretty much his career. He won more races on dirt at a mile or less than he did over a mile and at 1 1/8 he lost half his races.

Affirmed and Secretariat careers at 2 and 3 are almost identical except some of you are overly impressed Secretariat beat a bunch of nobodies by 31 lengths for your information Da' Tara would have beat that lame group by 2.
Affirmed held off a Hall of Fame horse for an entire mile to win the Triple Crown in one of the greatest races ever.

My point that some of you seem to miss is that the 3 horses that beat Affirmed at 3 are all in the Bloodhorse top 100. The 3 that beat Secretariat are no where to be found. It took a great horse to show up and beat Affirmed at 3 it didn't take a great horse to beat Secretariat.

Affirmed raced and dominated at 4 winning HOY honors and Secretariat did not even race at 4 so how on earth can you consider Secretariat a better horse. He never raced past 3 ?

The tracks in 1973 all wanted to set records with Secretariat. Horses racing after Secretariat at various distances ALSO just happend to set track records. But many of you who WERE THERE don't seem to remember that.

It seems many of you also forget that Secretariat was moved to turf because he was getting his butt kicked on dirt so his connections were looking for softer spots for him. Like a G2 race in CANADA !

Believe me Affirmed is not the only horse that was better than Secretariat. Spectacular Bid was a better horse any way you want to measure it but you can't argue it because all everyone focuses on is he didn't win the triple crown race due to a safety pin accident. But unlike many of you I saw The Bid race 7 times and I can tell you he was a much better horse than Secretariat. If you don't believe me tell me how many races Secretariat won over 126 lbs and then make a list how many The Bid won carrying over 126.

Secretariat the best ever ? You guys keep holding on to the 4 race myth.

And please stop bringing up the made up corporate race it just sounds silly.

[joanied]

Thanks, Like I said in another thread I felt so good about Kona representing Java Gold as his best son to race.

Despite my defense of Secretariat in this thread, my all time three favorite horses who I have seen multiple times in my life in person are Affirmed, Java Gold and Easy Goer. They each had a certain prescence about them. Java Gold was a little more professional but Affirmed and Easy Goer absolutley KNEW they were special when I saw them in the paddock. They wanted to look around at everything and pose for cameras. Those who want to argue about times and who beat who without actually seeing the horses race and seeing the way they present themselves and the way that the fans of racing on the track receive them are just missing out on the greatest part of being a racing fan.

Java G...:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: you nailed somethin' here...racing is so much more than distances, times, conditions, records...it IS afterall, about these horses. I won't even say how many years it's been since I've been to a major track (in person), but I can still feel it, smell it,hear it, see it all in my mind's eye...there is nothing better that being at the races and taking it all in.

Our good horses do know... They do have that 'presence' about them...the 'Look of Eagles', they way they walk, that they respond to the crowd as if to say, "yeah, look at me, I am power, grace and pure poetry in motion, I am special" And to stand at the rail, you can feel the thunder in the ground, you can hear them breathing, you can see in their eye some deep confidence that shines through.
I think a good example of what you are saying, Java, might be in the movie 'Let it Ride'...when Trotter looks into the stall of 'Hot to Trot' and that horse looks Trotter in the eye, and Trotter just smiles...then goes and places it all down...and during the stretch run, again...he and that horse look eye to eye, and Trotter KNEW, he just knew.
:) :) :)

[ghostyapper]

I wasn't ignoring anything that Steve R posted at all. I was simply responding to the contradictions of Squirelly. 3yo's vs 4yo's? Ferdinand beat Alysheba, Seattle Slew beat Affirmed, Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid, etc To say that Affirmed is better because he raced against Slew (and lost) and Bid is just a shot at Squirrley's understanding of racing history.

As far as times, I will always stand by the statement that evry handciapper who was just understanding spped figures in the 70's will deinitivly say that the So Cal tracks were paved highways at the time. Day in and day out. In gordon Jones original book he gave a speed variant of -5 to both SA and Holraces up to 9F. Athe sme time he gave 0's to Belmont when using his par times. That book was written in 1975 or 1976 and he was a So Cal guy so I don't think he was being prejudiced.

Once again you compelely ignore discussing the conditions of the tracks that secretariat ran on, you just keep repeating what some people said about ca tracks at that time.

And yes you are ignoring steve r's various contradictions (there are a ton of them) when he dismisses affirmed's win over spec bid because of the 3 vs 4 argument but then uses affirmeds loss against slew against him. You seem to be fine in letting that obvious contradiction slide.

Affirmed's hollywood gold cup might have been the best race of his career. He was carrying 132 lbs and still came close to the then world record of 1.58 and 1. When sirlad got up to him, he showed the "iron heart" as well as he ever has in his career. Of course you just brush all this aside and say how the tracks were fast.

[46zilzal]

J

Our good horses do know... They do have that 'presence' about them...the 'Look of Eagles', they way they walk, that they respond to the crowd as if to say, "yeah, look at me, I am power, grace and pure poetry in motion, I am special" And to stand at the rail, you can feel the thunder in the ground, you can hear them breathing, you can see in their eye some deep confidence that shines through.
I think a good example of what you are saying, Java, might be in the movie 'Let it Ride'...when Trotter looks into the stall of 'Hot to Trot' and that horse looks Trotter in the eye, and Trotter just smiles...then goes and places it all down...and during the stretch run, again...he and that horse look eye to eye, and Trotter KNEW, he just knew.

Anthropomorphism at it's height. Most cultures possess a long-standing fable tradition with anthropomorphised animals as characters that can stand as commonly recognized types of human behavior.

Anthropomorphic animals are often used as mascots for sports teams or sporting events, often represented by humans in costumes.

Animal behavior is mostly hard wired. Horses run via the controlled and conditioned fight or flight response. That is it, pure and simple

[Steve R]

I'm not trying to imply anything, but here is a bit of trivia related to this thread. Of the Blood-Horse top 15 North American runners of all time, Affirmed is the only one who actually tried older horses at age three and failed to win. Eleven others were successful. And the much maligned Prove Out defeated Forego (who was 3-5 in the race) five weeks prior to the 1973 Woodward, beating him by over 7 lengths at Saratoga while breaking the 7f track record by 2/5ths of a second.

[Steve R]

Anthropomorphism at it's height. Most cultures possess a long-standing fable tradition with anthropomorphised animals as characters that can stand as commonly recognized types of human behavior.

Anthropomorphic animals are often used as mascots for sports teams or sporting events, often represented by humans in costumes.

Animal behavior is mostly hard wired. Horses run via the controlled and conditioned fight or flight response. That is it, pure and simple
Then, of course, there is the possibility that all higher mammals possess, to one degree or another, similar individual qualities and that it is simply typical human arrogance that leads some to believe we are different or special. You know, like fundamentalist Christians rejecting the idea that all animal life descends from common ancestors because humans are "different". I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea that anthropomorphism has some religious roots.

Also, when you quote from Wikipedia you really should attribute the quote to the source.

[castaway01]

Can you at least change the title to spell the horse's name right? Damn.

[SecretSquirrel]

I'm not trying to imply anything, but here is a bit of trivia related to this thread. Of the Blood-Horse top 15 North American runners of all time, Affirmed is the only one who actually tried older horses at age three and failed to win. Eleven others were successful. And the much maligned Prove Out defeated Forego (who was 3-5 in the race) five weeks prior to the 1973 Woodward, beating him by over 7 lengths at Saratoga while breaking the 7f track record by 2/5ths of a second.

Affirmed lost to two all time great horses Seattle Slew and Exceller. No shame in that. Losing to Onion and Prove Out unreal.

[Marshall Bennett]

Secretariat beat a bunch of nobodies by 31 lengths
In the process he shattered the track record . Beating any field of horses by 31 lengths is nothing short of remarkable . I'd venture to say on that day he would have beat any horse past or present . You simply have no respect . Either that or you simply hate the horse for whatever reason .

[Paseana]

Can you at least change the title to spell the horse's name right? Damn.

That IS annoying castaway. I totally agree with you. When I first read the title, I figured it was just a typo which can happen to anybody, but the poster repeatedly spells the name that way in subsequent remarks.

It's almost as bad as D Wayne Lucas and Charasmatic, both of which are seen over and over again. The Lucas one in particular really busts my chops. There's no excuse for that! :bang:

At least Rachel AlexandER has finally pretty much gone away!

[Grits]

Anthropomorphism at it's height. Most cultures possess a long-standing fable tradition with anthropomorphised animals as characters that can stand as commonly recognized types of human behavior.

Anthropomorphic animals are often used as mascots for sports teams or sporting events, often represented by humans in costumes.

Animal behavior is mostly hard wired. Horses run via the controlled and conditioned fight or flight response. That is it, pure and simple

Zilly, you may have been a physician in your past life, one with a great deal of qualifiable learned knowledge. But you can be the most negative, the coldest, no gray area--all is black or white--the most irrefutable poster I read. I would think this wouldn't have served a physician well in a clinical setting; not with patients or family members. Here, you present facts, when often, those facts are only your opinion. You throw out answers to posts which sometimes have different conclusions, well recognized, well founded. One answer doesn't always supply absolute proof to all questions or comments. My thought has nothing to do with "warm and fuzzy." Its solid observation of horses. I believe they do know when they've won, and its most obvious when they exit the turf course, or turn around after crossing the wire on the dirt. One can see it all over them in that first minute or so. And anyone that can't . . . . is blind as a damn bat.:lol:

[SecretSquirrel]

In the process he shattered the track record . Beating any field of horses by 31 lengths is nothing short of remarkable . I'd venture to say on that day he would have beat any horse past or present . You simply have no respect . Either that or you simply hate the horse for whatever reason .

Secretariat was a great horse that had 4 great performances. His Belmont was great as was Citations. The fact that he beat an weak field by 31 means little to me. His time is very impressive but there were a few records set that weekend due to the track being lightning fast. 1973 Everyone wanted to see Secretariat set records so tracks were set up very fast.

No one is saying Secretariat wasn't great but the greatest ? It's laughable he didn't even race after 3 how do you know he was the greatest ? After Belmont he never won another G1 race on dirt. He was moved to turf because he was not performing well on dirt. Onion beats him and Prove Out runs away from him by almost 5 while giving Secretariat 7 lbs and this is the greatest horse ever ? To call him better than The Bid is just plain nuts. Secretariat NEVER won a race over 126 lbs and you want to compare him to The Bid ??? Really ?

Facts don't back Secretariat as the best ever. Four magical races is what the backers hang on to and those are the same people who never mention losses to average horses Onion, Angle Light, and Prove Out. You can't lose 3 times to average horses as a 3 year old and never run at 4 and be the greatest ever. Greatest Belmont ever ? Citation may argue that but I will give you that but greatest horse ? Facts simply do not support it.

[Steve R]

Affirmed lost to two all time great horses Seattle Slew and Exceller. No shame in that. Losing to Onion and Prove Out unreal.
I see. Exceller, number 96 on the Blood-Horse rankings is an all-time great, but Riva Ridge, number 57, is completely forgettable. And I suppose Forego, all-time number 8, wasn't really as good as Affirmed because he also lost to Prove Out despite running within 5 ticks of the track record yet getting trounced by seven lengths.

BTW, Prove Out also won the JCGC that year in the 4th fastest time in its history at 2 miles going back to 1921. Also in 1973, Prove Out equaled the track record for 8 1/2f at Belmont Park.

So let's see. Prove Out won two of the most prestigious G1-level races in the US in 1973, set or equaled tracks records at 7f and 8 1/2f (at Saratoga and Belmont no less), ran the 4th fastest 2-mile JCGC over its 50-plus year history and ran the second fastest 12f ever at Belmont to that time in the Woodward. Yeah, he sucked.

Of course Affirmed belongs among the very elite runners in history and Prove Out was simply a legitimate, high class G1 stayer (who also happened to have awesome speed around one-turn as well). It should be obvious that at his best, Prove Out was competitive with any horses racing in North America. Don't let his level of consistency (or lack thereof) cloud your understanding of his ability. When he was right, he was as awesome as any you could name. What I find troubling is how little you understand the real history and the subtleties of racing.

[SecretSquirrel]

I see. Exceller, number 96 on the Blood-Horse rankings is an all-time great, but Riva Ridge, number 57, is completely forgettable. And I suppose Forego, all-time number 8, wasn't really as good as Affirmed because he also lost to Prove Out despite running within 5 ticks of the track record yet getting trounced by seven lengths.

BTW, Prove Out also won the JCGC that year in the 4th fastest time in its history at 2 miles going back to 1921. Also in 1973, Prove Out equaled the track record for 8 1/2f at Belmont Park.

So let's see. Prove Out won two of the most prestigious G1-level races in the US in 1973, set or equaled tracks records at 7f and 8 1/2f (at Saratoga and Belmont no less), ran the 4th fastest 2-mile JCGC over its 50-plus year history and ran the second fastest 12f ever at Belmont to that time in the Woodward. Yeah, he sucked.

Of course Affirmed belongs among the very elite runners in history and Prove Out was simply a legitimate, high class G1 stayer (who also happened to have awesome speed around one-turn as well). It should be obvious that at his best, Prove Out was competitive with any horses racing in North America. Don't let his level of consistency (or lack thereof) cloud your understanding of his ability. When he was right, he was as awesome as any you could name. What I find troubling is how little you understand the real history and the subtleties of racing.

is your still trying to convince people Secretariat was better than Affirmed, The Bid, or some think he was even better than Citation and that is even funnier !!! How anyone can begin to call Secretariat better than Citation is just crazy and would have my grandfather spinning in his grave. Citation showed up and won again and again and again. Secretariat at 3 could never put more than 4 races together without throwing in a clunker.

Are you STILL bringing up Riva Ridge ? You mean the horse that got beat by Witchita Oil a 56 to 1 shot before the great Marlboro Cup? A tired horse that never lived up to his promise as an older horse ? Maybe you need to do some reading. Read the book Citation some time and then come back here and tell me how ANYONE can place Secretariat ahead of that horse.

[Marshall Bennett]

His time is very impressive but there were a few records set that weekend due to the track being lightning fast. 1973 Everyone wanted to see Secretariat set records so tracks were set up very fast.

Amazing that on a track so lightning fast that the field was left 31 lengths behind . It's not like he ran against a bunch of cheap claimers either .

[Nikki1997]

Secretariat was a great horse that had 4 great performances. His Belmont was great as was Citations. The fact that he beat an weak field by 31 means little to me. His time is very impressive but there were a few records set that weekend due to the track being lightning fast. 1973 Everyone wanted to see Secretariat set records so tracks were set up very fast.

No one is saying Secretariat wasn't great but the greatest ? It's laughable he didn't even race after 3 how do you know he was the greatest ? After Belmont he never won another G1 race on dirt. He was moved to turf because he was not performing well on dirt. Onion beats him and Prove Out runs away from him by almost 5 while giving Secretariat 7 lbs and this is the greatest horse ever ? To call him better than The Bid is just plain nuts. Secretariat NEVER won a race over 126 lbs and you want to compare him to The Bid ??? Really ?

Facts don't back Secretariat as the best ever. Four magical races is what the backers hang on to and those are the same people who never mention losses to average horses Onion, Angle Light, and Prove Out. You can't lose 3 times to average horses as a 3 year old and never run at 4 and be the greatest ever. Greatest Belmont ever ? Citation may argue that but I will give you that but greatest horse ? Facts simply do not support it.

This post is so full of holes, it makes swiss cheese pale in comparison.
The only thing I will address here is the reason Secretariat didn't run as a 4 yr. old (if you read anything at all about this horse, you'd know this)
Secretariat was syndicated to save Meadow Stable. The inheritance taxes on Christopher Chenery's estate had to be paid and syndicating Secretariat saved the farm. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but Claiborne and the syndicate partners didn't smile upon their newly acquired stallion running any longer. By the way, Penny Chenery ran Riva Ridge as a 4 year old.
Sorry you have a problem with Secretariat. Take off the full cup blinkers and maybe you'll grasp the facts that others are putting out there for you.

[SecretSquirrel]

This post is so full of holes, it makes swiss cheese pale in comparison.
The only thing I will address here is the reason Secretariat didn't run as a 4 yr. old (if you read anything at all about this horse, you'd know this)
Secretariat was syndicated to save Meadow Stable. The inheritance taxes on Christopher Chenery's estate had to be paid and syndicating Secretariat saved the farm. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but Claiborne and the syndicate partners didn't smile upon their newly acquired stallion running any longer. By the way, Penny Chenery ran Riva Ridge as a 4 year old.
Sorry you have a problem with Secretariat. Take off the full cup blinkers and maybe you'll grasp the facts that others are putting out there for you.

Give me the facts. Tell me how anyone can place Secretariat ahead of Citation, The Bid, and Affirmed. Tell me the facts that places Secretariat ahead of these horses.

The year was 1973 and Secretariat had just lost again to a horse named Onion and my grandfather said to me, "Secretariat is a great horse but he is no Citation. Citation won again and again... this Secretariat can't keep it together."

[Steve R]

is your still trying to convince people Secretariat was better than Affirmed, The Bid, or some think he was even better than Citation and that is even funnier !!! How anyone can begin to call Secretariat better than Citation is just crazy and would have my grandfather spinning in his grave. Citation showed up and won again and again and again. Secretariat at 3 could never put more than 4 races together without throwing in a clunker.

Are you STILL bringing up Riva Ridge ? You mean the horse that got beat by Witchita Oil a 56 to 1 shot before the great Marlboro Cup? A tired horse that never lived up to his promise as an older horse ? Maybe you need to do some reading. Read the book Citation some time and then come back here and tell me how ANYONE can place Secretariat ahead of that horse.
Your anecdotal arguments are hysterical. Try these. How about those losses by Affirmed to Little Reb and Radar Ahead. Magical performances, those. And I believe you were the one who brought up Riva Ridge as an unworthy opponent in the Marlboro Cup while proclaiming the much lower rated Exceller an all-time great.

I don't know if you're just ignorant or blinded by ego. A committee of far more intelligent and knowledgeable people than you have evaluated these things and have concluded that there are over a dozen US-raced horses better than Affirmed and not as good as Secretariat. Almost any racing fan who saw both race would agree. On the other side of the ocean, an informal Timeform analysis placed Secretariat second only to Sea-Bird in the modern era. You can delude yourself and believe what you like, but your empty arguments make you look uninformed and foolish. And, frankly, based on your debating skills, it's hard to understand why anyone would even care about your opinion.

Out.

[Hank]

Secretariat was a great horse that had 4 great performances. His Belmont was great as was Citations. The fact that he beat an weak field by 31 means little to me. His time is very impressive but there were a few records set that weekend due to the track being lightning fast. 1973 Everyone wanted to see Secretariat set records so tracks were set up very fast.

No one is saying Secretariat wasn't great but the greatest ? It's laughable he didn't even race after 3 how do you know he was the greatest ? After Belmont he never won another G1 race on dirt. He was moved to turf because he was not performing well on dirt. Onion beats him and Prove Out runs away from him by almost 5 while giving Secretariat 7 lbs and this is the greatest horse ever ? To call him better than The Bid is just plain nuts. Secretariat NEVER won a race over 126 lbs and you want to compare him to The Bid ??? Really ?

Facts don't back Secretariat as the best ever. Four magical races is what the backers hang on to and those are the same people who never mention losses to average horses Onion, Angle Light, and Prove Out. You can't lose 3 times to average horses as a 3 year old and never run at 4 and be the greatest ever. Greatest Belmont ever ? Citation may argue that but I will give you that but greatest horse ? Facts simply do not support it.

Squirrely the way you frame your case for Affirmed is interesting,your points about whom he lost to, weight carried ect seem to make a stronger case for Dr. Fager than they do for Affirmed.Doc was NEVER beaten without a tag team effort.And the three Horses who finished ahead of him him were all Champions.He broke world and track records carrying over 130.NO other horse can make that claim,He won going short he won going long he won on turf he won in the east the midwest and in California.Doc and Slew are MY guys both went on the attack at the bell and fought to the bitter end no matter what.:ThmbUp:

[SecretSquirrel]

Amazing that on a track so lightning fast that the field was left 31 lengths behind . It's not like he ran against a bunch of cheap claimers either .

Why don't you tell me about all the great horses he faced that day. By the way Sham never raced again and finished last. Would you like to tell me about the great My Gallant and Twice a Prince. Many of you seem so impressed by horses that couldn't run the race under 2 1/2 minutes. I think many of you need to read about Citation winning in a stakes matched record while being eased the last 1/8th of a mile. My grandfather was there and said Citation could have won by 25 or more but what was the point. My grandfather was also there at Hialeah to watch Big Cy and his first race as a 3 year old. He raced against HOY Armed and as my grandfather said "Big Cy made it look easy beating him with ease."

Some of you really need to read about Citation winner of 19 out of 20 as a 3 year old. He won more races that year than Secretariat did in his entire career and you still want to post on here that Secretariat was better ???

Really ? Read about Citation and then get back with me and justify such crazy thoughts.

A RECAP OF CITATION'S 1948 SEASON

* 19 wins in 20 starts
* Earnings of $709,470 (a then-world record for a single season)
* Raced from February 2 to December 11
* Beat older horses from February to December
* Won at six furlongs in February, August and December
* Won at every distance from six furlongs to two miles
* Won at 10 different racetracks
* Won in seven different states from New York to California (traveling in un-airconditioned vans and railroad boxcars)
* Won on tracks labeled fast, sloppy, heavy, muddy and good
* Won his races by a cumulative total of 66 lengths
* Won the Triple Crown races by a total of 17 lengths
* At yearend, his lifetime record stood at 29 27-2-0

[Hank]

Why don't you tell me about all the great horses he faced that day. By the way Sham never raced again and finished last. Would you like to tell me about the great My Gallant and Twice a Prince. Many of you seem so impressed by horses that couldn't run the race under 2 1/2 minutes. I think many of you need to read about Citation winning in a stakes matched record while being eased the last 1/8th of a mile. My grandfather was there and said Citation could have won by 25 or more but what was the point. My grandfather was also there at Hialeah to watch Big Cy and his first race as a 3 year old. He raced against HOY Armed and as my grandfather said "Big Cy made it look easy beating him with ease."

Some of you really need to read about Citation winner of 19 out of 20 as a 3 year old. He won more races that year than Secretariat did in his entire career and you still want to post on here that Secretariat was better ???

Really ? Read about Citation and then get back with me and justify such crazy thoughts.

A RECAP OF CITATION'S 1948 SEASON

* 19 wins in 20 starts
* Earnings of $709,470 (a then-world record for a single season)
* Raced from February 2 to December 11
* Beat older horses from February to December
* Won at six furlongs in February, August and December
* Won at every distance from six furlongs to two miles
* Won at 10 different racetracks
* Won in seven different states from New York to California (traveling in un-airconditioned vans and railroad boxcars)
* Won on tracks labeled fast, sloppy, heavy, muddy and good
* Won his races by a cumulative total of 66 lengths
* Won the Triple Crown races by a total of 17 lengths
* At yearend, his lifetime record stood at 29 27-2-0

A very compelling case can be made for Citation.:ThmbUp:

[tucker6]

The only thing I can think of its that some of you were not alive in 1973 and simply have no idea what the MARLBORO CUP really was. It was a corporate event put on FOR SECRETARIAT !!! The race was set up by the corporation to be a match race between Riva Ridge and Secretariat but BOTH had just lost to two nobodies ! Witchita Oil had just beaten a tired Riva Ridge a 56 to 1 shot so the race needed some other horses to throw in. They rushed to bring in a few other names and gave them GUARANTEED money just to run because they wanted the public to see Secretariat run. Many of you hold this race up like it was something special. The track was made LIGHTING fast for Secretariat and he ran a 145.40 a time that could have been matched by a filly this year in the Mother Goose had she not been eased 200 yards before the wire.

Secretariat had 4 fantastic races as a 3 year old and that was pretty much his career. He won more races on dirt at a mile or less than he did over a mile and at 1 1/8 he lost half his races.

Affirmed and Secretariat careers at 2 and 3 are almost identical except some of you are overly impressed Secretariat beat a bunch of nobodies by 31 lengths for your information Da' Tara would have beat that lame group by 2.
Affirmed held off a Hall of Fame horse for an entire mile to win the Triple Crown in one of the greatest races ever.

My point that some of you seem to miss is that the 3 horses that beat Affirmed at 3 are all in the Bloodhorse top 100. The 3 that beat Secretariat are no where to be found. It took a great horse to show up and beat Affirmed at 3 it didn't take a great horse to beat Secretariat.

Affirmed raced and dominated at 4 winning HOY honors and Secretariat did not even race at 4 so how on earth can you consider Secretariat a better horse. He never raced past 3 ?

The tracks in 1973 all wanted to set records with Secretariat. Horses racing after Secretariat at various distances ALSO just happend to set track records. But many of you who WERE THERE don't seem to remember that.

It seems many of you also forget that Secretariat was moved to turf because he was getting his butt kicked on dirt so his connections were looking for softer spots for him. Like a G2 race in CANADA !

Believe me Affirmed is not the only horse that was better than Secretariat. Spectacular Bid was a better horse any way you want to measure it but you can't argue it because all everyone focuses on is he didn't win the triple crown race due to a safety pin accident. But unlike many of you I saw The Bid race 7 times and I can tell you he was a much better horse than Secretariat. If you don't believe me tell me how many races Secretariat won over 126 lbs and then make a list how many The Bid won carrying over 126.

Secretariat the best ever ? You guys keep holding on to the 4 race myth.

And please stop bringing up the made up corporate race it just sounds silly.
Took you awhile to google all that nonsense up didn't it?? There's so much wrong, inconsistent, and unsubstantiated in there that I'm not even going to respond. Have a nice day.

[tucker6]

I'm not trying to imply anything, but here is a bit of trivia related to this thread. Of the Blood-Horse top 15 North American runners of all time, Affirmed is the only one who actually tried older horses at age three and failed to win. Eleven others were successful. And the much maligned Prove Out defeated Forego (who was 3-5 in the race) five weeks prior to the 1973 Woodward, beating him by over 7 lengths at Saratoga while breaking the 7f track record by 2/5ths of a second.
Steve,

You can't use that stat remember. All tracks in 1973 were souped up whether Secretariat raced in them or not. At least that's what Squirrely keeps saying. After all, he was there and none of us were. :lol:

[tucker6]

and would have my grandfather spinning in his grave.
I'm sure your grandfather was spinning long before this thread got started. :rolleyes:

[tucker6]

Give me the facts. Tell me how anyone can place Secretariat ahead of Citation, The Bid, and Affirmed. Tell me the facts that places Secretariat ahead of these horses.

The year was 1973 and Secretariat had just lost again to a horse named Onion and my grandfather said to me, "Secretariat is a great horse but he is no Citation. Citation won again and again... this Secretariat can't keep it together."
Ever think that you inherited your grandfathers blinders??

I guess you feel the committee that selected the top 100 of the 20th century had it in for Affirmed. If not, why do YOU believe they picked him 12th??

[SecretSquirrel]

Ever think that you inherited your grandfathers blinders??

I guess you feel the committee that selected the top 100 of the 20th century had it in for Affirmed. If not, why do YOU believe they picked him 12th??

I am still trying to figure out how they placed Secretariat ahead of Citation. ANY REASON you can think of ??? They both raced at 2 and 3 and when you compare them side by side there is no way any reasonable person can place Secretariat ahead of Big Cy.

[tucker6]

I am still trying to figure out how they placed Secretariat ahead of Citation. ANY REASON you can think of ??? They both raced at 2 and 3 and when you compare them side by side there is no way any reasonable person can place Secretariat ahead of Big Cy.
you answer my question, and I'll answer yours.

[GaryG]

I am still trying to figure out how they placed Secretariat ahead of Citation. ANY REASON you can think of ??? They both raced at 2 and 3 and when you compare them side by side there is no way any reasonable person can place Secretariat ahead of Big Cy.It was probably bcause Big Cy tarnished his reputation when he came back as a 6yo following a serious injury to become the first $1 mil earner. There was never a better 3yo than Citation.

[SecretSquirrel]

Ever think that you inherited your grandfathers blinders??

I guess you feel the committee that selected the top 100 of the 20th century had it in for Affirmed. If not, why do YOU believe they picked him 12th??

Both were champion 2 and 3 year olds but Affirmed went on to be a champion 4 year old. I can find no reason to place Secretariat ahead of Affirmed but if you ask someone who does 99 % of them say its because of his Belmont win.

One performance over average horses has never been so important to many.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Guys, squirelly justwants an inane argument - that's all. He just loves to twist every comment he makes into something new to justify a previous absurd statement. He has proclaimed that Secretariat can't be considered great because he didn't race at 4 but claims that the 4yo Affirmed cemented his greatness at 4 by losing to 2 horses that he probably doesn't even remember and were so insignificant that he can't even look up their records on Wikipedia. While conveniently ignoring exactly why Secretariat didn't race at 4 he justifies Affirmed's greatness by saying he beat a 3yo Bid and then ignores that Secretariat beat a 3yo Forego, a HOF member. He does the same thing with Citation by citing his 3yo stats without mentioning that as a 2yo he lost to a filly and later in his career he was just a shadow of a great raece horse. It's all about convenience of the argument. How many years did Secretariat race? 2. How many years was Secretariat Horse of the Year? 2. Please name ONE other horse with that record. And I have absolutely no doubt in my mind it would have been 3 for 3 if Meadow Stable didn't have the financial problems that they had. Yes, there were other horses with more than one HOY title but none were HOY every year they ran.

[SecretSquirrel]

It was probably bcause Big Cy tarnished his reputation when he came back as a 6yo following a serious injury to become the first $1 mil earner. There was never a better 3yo than Citation.

He comes back from a major injury to win US Champion Older Horse in 1951 and he tarnished his image ? I can't take it anymore...... :bang:

[tucker6]

Guys, squirelly justwants an inane argument - that's all. He just loves to twist every comment he makes into something new to justify a previous absurd statement. He has proclaimed that Secretariat can't be considered great because he didn't race at 4 but claims that the 4yo Affirmed cemented his greatness at 4 by losing to 2 horses that he probably doesn't even remember and were so insignificant that he can't even look up their records on Wikipedia. While conveniently ignoring exactly why Secretariat didn't race at 4 he justifies Affirmed's greatness by saying he beat a 3yo Bid and then ignores that Secretariat beat a 3yo Forego, a HOF member. He does the same thing with Citation by citing his 3yo stats without mentioning that as a 2yo he lost to a filly and later in his career he was just a shadow of a great raece horse. It's all about convenience of the argument. How many years did Secretariat race? 2. How many years was Secretariat Horse of the Year? 2. Please name ONE other horse with that record. And I have absolutely no doubt in my mind it would have been 3 for 3 if Meadow Stable didn't have the financial problems that they had. Yes, there were other horses with more than one HOY title but none were HOY every year they ran.
You're one of the good ones Java. :ThmbUp:

[SecretSquirrel]

Guys, squirelly justwants an inane argument - that's all. He just loves to twist every comment he makes into something new to justify a previous absurd statement. He has proclaimed that Secretariat can't be considered great because he didn't race at 4 but claims that the 4yo Affirmed cemented his greatness at 4 by losing to 2 horses that he probably doesn't even remember and were so insignificant that he can't even look up their records on Wikipedia. While conveniently ignoring exactly why Secretariat didn't race at 4 he justifies Affirmed's greatness by saying he beat a 3yo Bid and then ignores that Secretariat beat a 3yo Forego, a HOF member. He does the same thing with Citation by citing his 3yo stats without mentioning that as a 2yo he lost to a filly and later in his career he was just a shadow of a great raece horse. It's all about convenience of the argument. How many years did Secretariat race? 2. How many years was Secretariat Horse of the Year? 2. Please name ONE other horse with that record. And I have absolutely no doubt in my mind it would have been 3 for 3 if Meadow Stable didn't have the financial problems that they had. Yes, there were other horses with more than one HOY title but none were HOY every year they ran.

I am not picking a fight but your posting nonsense. Affirmed dominated at 4 we all know he lost his first 2 tune up races and then he dominated winning 7 in a row while winning HOY honors. Affirmed accomplished like Secretariat was champion 2 year old and champion 3 year old and did not lose to average horses at 3 like Secretariat did and Affirmed went on to be HOY at 4 which Secretariat did not. The fact remains that after Belmont Secretariat NEVER won another G1 race on dirt again. NEVER.

Citation was a shell of his former self as an older horse ? HE WAS INJURED ! He came back from injury to be Champion Older horse at SIX !!! Not to mention you want to crack on him for losing to a filly at 2 who set a track record that day for 6 furlongs. He lost one race at 2 and one at 3 winning 15 in a row showing up every time and winning every time. Secretariat at 3 couldn't put more than 4 races together. Please...

You're too funny.

[Java Gold@TFT]

You're too funny.
If I'm funny then you are hysterical. Look it up at dictionary.com.

[dav4463]

http://www.horsehats.com/ManOWar.html


20 wins in 21 starts, one 2nd place finish when he was backing up at the start and lost to a horse he beat in six other meetings, 3 stakes wins at three different tracks in 17 days, a stride measured at 25-28 feet!

He won one race by an incredible 100 lengths and triumphed in another carrying 138 pounds. He whipped a Triple Crown champion by seven lengths in a match race. He ate 12 quarts of oats every day!

Secretariat was great, but no better than Man O' War.

[Java Gold@TFT]

http://www.horsehats.com/ManOWar.html


20 wins in 21 starts, one 2nd place finish when he was backing up at the start and lost to a horse he beat in six other meetings, 3 stakes wins at three different tracks in 17 days, a stride measured at 25-28 feet!

He won one race by an incredible 100 lengths and triumphed in another carrying 138 pounds. He whipped a Triple Crown champion by seven lengths in a match race. He ate 12 quarts of oats every day!

Secretariat was great, but no better than Man O' War.
dav4463, with all due respect for your opinion, you haven't been reading this thread closely enough. According to all of squirelly's posts no horse that didn't race past the age of 3 can be considered the greatest of all time. Just the facts according to him. Not to say you can't have your opinion but he has laid down the ground rules and Man O'War doesn't meet the standard. Sorry. :bang: :D

[SecretSquirrel]

dav4463, with all due respect for your opinion, you haven't been reading this thread closely enough. According to all of squirelly's posts no horse that didn't race past the age of 3 can be considered the greatest of all time. Just the facts according to him. Not to say you can't have your opinion but he has laid down the ground rules and Man O'War doesn't meet the standard. Sorry. :bang: :D

When you have a horse like Secretariat who had such a brief career you don't have many races to call him the greatest. In sports we tend to give the term greatest to those who have been great over a period of time.

A horse like Affirmed or The Bid accomplished what Secretariat did but went on to do much more.

If you simply want to compare what was done at 2 and 3 then there is no comparison to horses like Man O War, Citation, or Affirmed.

[Steve R]

I am not picking a fight but your posting nonsense. Affirmed dominated at 4 we all know he lost his first 2 tune up races and then he dominated winning 7 in a row while winning HOY honors. Affirmed accomplished like Secretariat was champion 2 year old and champion 3 year old and did not lose to average horses at 3 like Secretariat did and Affirmed went on to be HOY at 4 which Secretariat did not. The fact remains that after Belmont Secretariat NEVER won another G1 race on dirt again. NEVER.

Citation was a shell of his former self as an older horse ? HE WAS INJURED ! He came back from injury to be Champion Older horse at SIX !!! Not to mention you want to crack on him for losing to a filly at 2 who set a track record that day for 6 furlongs. He lost one race at 2 and one at 3 winning 15 in a row showing up every time and winning every time. Secretariat at 3 couldn't put more than 4 races together. Please...

You're too funny.
How ignorant are you? You are aware that 1973 was the first year stakes were graded in the US, aren't you, and that the Marlboro Cup was ineligible for grading because it was the first edition? Nevertheless, the field was comprised of five champions and three classic winners and the winner set a world record. So if that's not a Grade 1 race, labeled or not, then you really are as uninformed as you appear. And who gives a crap about G1s being on dirt or grass? Secretariat was undefeated on grass and shattered the record in the 13f G1 Man 'o War. Did you forget that he was champion turf horse in 1973 as well? And he achieved that championship by trouncing essentially every other male G1 turf stakes winner that ran in North America that year. Which reminds me of the aborted plans to try Affirmed on turf because his sire, Exclusive Native, was showing promise as a high class grass sire (which he certainly was). A headline in the Ocala Star-Banner on October 8, 1979 reads "Affirmed to Make Grass Debut in Turf Classic". And here's another quote you will love, from the Ellensburg Daily Record, October 23, 1979: "Affirmed had been training for the $250,000 Turf Classic Invitational Saturday, but Barrera said the colt did not like the turf and it would not be fair to the horse or the public for him to race, and would instead retire slightly ahead of schedule...". I suppose that lack of versatility brings him down a notch...but obviously not to someone like you who can make an excuse for anything.

Face it, what you know about racing history would fit on the head of pin. You can look up results and tell us who won which race, but you know s__t about any of the back stories that actually determine what the races mean.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Can we rename this thread "Draynay's Revenge"???

The internet is an amazing thing.Somehow Mother Theresa could believably have been a harlot and a meiser feeding off the weak.

We all,well most of us love this game.In the span of 1 summer the best horse in 2009 and the horse regarded as at least the best horse of the latter half of the 20th century are construed and pure $hit and phoneys.This is nihilism's hour at it's finest.The goal is pure destruction and misery of the past,the present,and the future is an apostasy waiting to be annihilated.

Hey,it's not our fault you are miserable human beings and that you extract no pleasure from this great game.The intelligence is there,because some of the arguments are very intriguing.But IMO,if the goal is just to rain on somone else's parade than just prove a point with your fellow horseplayer,the intention betrays the rationale.

Stever R and Java:ThmbUp:

[SecretSquirrel]

How ignorant are you? You are aware that 1973 was the first year stakes were graded in the US, aren't you, and that the Marlboro Cup was ineligible for grading because it was the first edition? Nevertheless, the field was comprised of five champions and three classic winners and the winner set a world record. So if that's not a Grade 1 race, labeled or not, then you really are as uninformed as you appear. And who gives a crap about G1s being on dirt or grass? Secretariat was undefeated on grass and shattered the record in the 13f G1 Man 'o War. Did you forget that he was champion turf horse in 1973 as well? And he achieved that championship by trouncing essentially every other male G1 turf stakes winner that ran in North America that year. Which reminds me of the aborted plans to try Affirmed on turf because his sire, Exclusive Native, was showing promise as a high class grass sire (which he certainly was). A headline in the Ocala Star-Banner on October 8, 1979 reads "Affirmed to Make Grass Debut in Turf Classic". And here's another quote you will love, from the Ellensburg Daily Record, October 23, 1979: "Affirmed had been training for the $250,000 Turf Classic Invitational Saturday, but Barrera said the colt did not like the turf and it would not be fair to the horse or the public for him to race, and would instead retire slightly ahead of schedule...". I suppose that lack of versatility brings him down a notch...but obviously not to someone like you who can make an excuse for anything.

Face it, what you know about racing history would fit on the head of pin. You can look up results and tell us who won which race, but you know s__t about any of the back stories that actually determine what the races mean.

The Marlboro Cup was to be a simple match race. But both horses LOST to a pair of nothing horses so they had to throw in a few other names who were not even training for the race but got money just to SHOW UP ! But I am guessing you knew that.

Secretariat had his chance to win a G1 on dirt and a G2 on dirt. The fact is after Belmont he NEVER won another Graded Stakes race on dirt he failed miserably in both tries.

It kind of tells you what the turf division was like that he was champion turf horse with ONE G1 win on turf. For your information he was placed on turf as a SOFTER spot because his form on dirt was GONE. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. Can you even imagine any horse this day and age winning Turf horse of the year with one G1 win? What a joke. You want me to give him big props for beating Big Spuce ? A winner of just 9 races out of 40 and didn't get his biggest win until Secretariat was long retired and he got it on dirt because he wasn't much of a turf horse !!!

[Java Gold@TFT]

If you simply want to compare what was done at 2 and 3 then there is no comparison to horses like Man O War, Citation, or Affirmed.
Yep. you are right. HOY at two and then again at three just doesn't compare. The ONLY reason Affirmed was HOY in 1978 was becasue he won the Triple Crown that year. Seattle Slew finished in front of him the two times they met on the track. According to BC fans - that is where titles are won when the best face the best and when Affirmed faced the best in 1978 he couldn't even smell Slews farts at the finish line. Try another argument and go back to the idea that Affirmed lost his first two races at 4 because they wee somehow just prep or warmup races. Maybe you can explain the records of the horses he lost to but then again you probably couldn't name them while any real racing fan of the 70's can name Prove Out and Onion. That's because they were such major upsets that they are memorable/ Affirmed in Cal in the beginning of 1979 is easily forgettable.

[SecretSquirrel]

Can we rename this thread "Draynay's Revenge"???

The internet is an amazing thing.Somehow Mother Theresa could believably have been a harlot and a meiser feeding off the weak.

We all,well most of us love this game.In the span of 1 summer the best horse in 2009 and the horse regarded as at least the best horse of the latter half of the 20th century are construed and pure $hit and phoneys.This is nihilism's hour at it's finest.The goal is pure destruction and misery of the past,the present,and the future is an apostasy waiting to be annihilated.

Hey,it's not our fault you are miserable human beings and that you extract no pleasure from this great game.The intelligence is there,because some of the arguments are very intriguing.But IMO,if the goal is just to rain on somone else's parade than just prove a point with your fellow horseplayer,the intention betrays the rationale.

Stever R and Java:ThmbUp:

I love horse racing and like everyone else I have my favorites. I told a friend I felt Rachel's 3 year old season was the best I had ever seen and I was attacked by all of the Secretariat fans. Most of them never even saw him run and they all know I DID.

I enjoyed Rachel more than anyone I know this year and what she was able to accomplish is simply amazing. However, each time I took my Grandson to the track and told him he was seeing history before Rachel ran I had to have someone shout at me that Rachel was NO BIG RED.

The last time it happend I looked and the man and said, "You know you're right she is no Big Red she is undefeated at 3 something Big Red couldn't come close to doing."

In seconds out came all the excuses of why Secretariat was not undefeated at 3. To be honest I am just tired of it. I am tired of listening to people who were not there tell me how great Secretariat was. Yes, he had some great performances but he also had some real clunkers. After Belmont the only horses he could beat on dirt was My Gallant a horse he beat by more than 30 at Belmont.

Now each year no matter good a horse is or how good he looks all the Secretariat protectors have to come out and remind you that no MATTER HOW GOOD a horse looks he won't win Belmont by 31.

For the RECORD I believe Rachel's record at 3 is more impressive than Secretariat's. Secretariat showed up EVERY time and won EVERY time. She won more G1 races on dirt in one year than Secretariat won in his entire career.

[bisket]

The only thing I can think of its that some of you were not alive in 1973 and simply have no idea what the MARLBORO CUP really was. It was a corporate event put on FOR SECRETARIAT !!! The race was set up by the corporation to be a match race between Riva Ridge and Secretariat but BOTH had just lost to two nobodies ! Witchita Oil had just beaten a tired Riva Ridge a 56 to 1 shot so the race needed some other horses to throw in. They rushed to bring in a few other names and gave them GUARANTEED money just to run because they wanted the public to see Secretariat run. Many of you hold this race up like it was something special. The track was made LIGHTING fast for Secretariat and he ran a 145.40 a time that could have been matched by a filly this year in the Mother Goose had she not been eased 200 yards before the wire.

Secretariat had 4 fantastic races as a 3 year old and that was pretty much his career. He won more races on dirt at a mile or less than he did over a mile and at 1 1/8 he lost half his races.

Affirmed and Secretariat careers at 2 and 3 are almost identical except some of you are overly impressed Secretariat beat a bunch of nobodies by 31 lengths for your information Da' Tara would have beat that lame group by 2.
Affirmed held off a Hall of Fame horse for an entire mile to win the Triple Crown in one of the greatest races ever.

My point that some of you seem to miss is that the 3 horses that beat Affirmed at 3 are all in the Bloodhorse top 100. The 3 that beat Secretariat are no where to be found. It took a great horse to show up and beat Affirmed at 3 it didn't take a great horse to beat Secretariat.

Affirmed raced and dominated at 4 winning HOY honors and Secretariat did not even race at 4 so how on earth can you consider Secretariat a better horse. He never raced past 3 ?

The tracks in 1973 all wanted to set records with Secretariat. Horses racing after Secretariat at various distances ALSO just happend to set track records. But many of you who WERE THERE don't seem to remember that.

It seems many of you also forget that Secretariat was moved to turf because he was getting his butt kicked on dirt so his connections were looking for softer spots for him. Like a G2 race in CANADA !

Believe me Affirmed is not the only horse that was better than Secretariat. Spectacular Bid was a better horse any way you want to measure it but you can't argue it because all everyone focuses on is he didn't win the triple crown race due to a safety pin accident. But unlike many of you I saw The Bid race 7 times and I can tell you he was a much better horse than Secretariat. If you don't believe me tell me how many races Secretariat won over 126 lbs and then make a list how many The Bid won carrying over 126.

Secretariat the best ever ? You guys keep holding on to the 4 race myth.

And please stop bringing up the made up corporate race it just sounds silly.
i think the bid was one of the better horses all time, but i should tell you that the safety pin story was a plant by frank whitely.

[bisket]

I wasn't ignoring anything that Steve R posted at all. I was simply responding to the contradictions of Squirelly. 3yo's vs 4yo's? Ferdinand beat Alysheba, Seattle Slew beat Affirmed, Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid, etc To say that Affirmed is better because he raced against Slew (and lost) and Bid is just a shot at Squirrley's understanding of racing history.

As far as times, I will always stand by the statement that evry handciapper who was just understanding spped figures in the 70's will deinitivly say that the So Cal tracks were paved highways at the time. Day in and day out. In gordon Jones original book he gave a speed variant of -5 to both SA and Holraces up to 9F. Athe sme time he gave 0's to Belmont when using his par times. That book was written in 1975 or 1976 and he was a So Cal guy so I don't think he was being prejudiced.
cal tracks had been a concrete highway for years and isn't any secret to anyone. add 1-2 seconds to every time from cali toi compare to tracks in ny was pretty much my formula

[bisket]

That IS annoying castaway. I totally agree with you. When I first read the title, I figured it was just a typo which can happen to anybody, but the poster repeatedly spells the name that way in subsequent remarks.

It's almost as bad as D Wayne Lucas and Charasmatic, both of which are seen over and over again. The Lucas one in particular really busts my chops. There's no excuse for that! :bang:

At least Rachel AlexandER has finally pretty much gone away!
now that i know it gets your goat i'll have to make even more of habit of it :p

[Paseana]

:D

Bisket, you made my day with that one! Good for you!

I've never seen Secretariat's name spelled that way before so it's not like you've perpetuated anything at all.

I just think that anyone posting on these boards about thoroughbred racing might be expected to know how to spell the subjects that they're posting about. Like I said, the Lukas thing just makes me crazy. D Wayne is high profile even today, and he is among the most visible and iconic trainers of the last 30 years. Anybody that uses the C instead of the K loses any credibility as far as I'm concerned.

That being said, I loved your response to me! It made me laugh!