Hmmm So Raven's Pass was going to duck Curlin

[tzipi]

That's funny. All the talk about Rachael and ducking this and that,even thoughs she's faced boys unlike some "champs".

John Gosden said he WOULD NOT HAVE RUN Raven's Pass against Curlin if the Breeders Cup was on a DIRT track. Only ran Raven's Pass in Cup because it was on the turf,sorry I mean Polytrack. Easier to run on with no kickback and it runs like turf. They know Curlin whips Raven's Pass on dirt.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/47695/pro-ride-surface-attracts-europeans

Gosden said on the same subject: "I would not be running Raven’s Pass in the Classic if it was still on the dirt. The problem with dirt is not the surface you are running on but the kickback. If European horses have never suffered kickback in their face, it can put them right out of their stride.

Also another trainer in article saying he would not run Sixties Icon in the Cup if it was at Churchill and DIRT track.

So,Europeans duck races unless they are on PolyTurfTrack and I would like to know why Zenyatta would'nt run against the boys in the numerous chances she's had out there or tried dirt?

NOT ONE WORD of bashing about Gosden saying he would duck Curlin on dirt but all the heat on Jackson for saying well I wont run on that polyturf. Hmmmmmmm?

Again not talking about HOF or greatest horse of all time or whatever the current talk is. Just WHY not the bashing on trainers ducking the best horses on dirt and admitting to it. Why just the bashing on Rachael or Jackson when they've proved so much more?

[andymays]

That's funny. All the talk about Rachael and ducking this and that,even thoughs she's faced boys unlike some "champs".

John Gosden said he WOULD NOT HAVE RUN Raven's Pass against Curlin if the Breeders Cup was on a DIRT track. Only ran Raven's Pass in Cup because it was on the turf,sorry I mean Polytrack. Easier ro run on with no kickback and it runs like turf. They know Curlin whips Raven's Pass on dirt.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/47695/pro-ride-surface-attracts-europeans

Gosden said on the same subject: "I would not be running Raven’s Pass in the Classic if it was still on the dirt. The problem with dirt is not the surface you are running on but the kickback. If European horses have never suffered kickback in their face, it can put them right out of their stride.

Also another trainer in article saying he would not Sixties Icon in the Cup if it was at Churchill and DIRT track.

So,Europeans duck races unless they are on PolyTurfTrack and I would like to know why Zenyatta would'nt run against the boys in the numerous chances she's had out there or tried dirt?

NOT ONE WORD of bashing about Gosden saying he would duck Curlin on dirt but all the heat on Jackson for saying well I wont run on that polyturf. Hmmmmmmm?



Good Post! :ThmbUp:

[Java Gold@TFT]

Don't worry, the greatest horse racing today is afraid of the rain. If the word "good" is not in the track condition then Sea The Stars stays in the barn.

[tzipi]

Yeah I agree. My post was just saying I could'nt find ONE thread bashing those trainers and owners ducking dirt. The know Polytack is Polyturf and admit to it.
Just threads on Rachael and Jackson not wanting to run on turf. Why? She's a dirt horse.

Funny I remember all the threads on how Raven's Pass is a better horse after he won Classic and how it showed Curlin who's better. But there is a article written how the trainer said he would NOT run against Curlin on durt,obviously because Curlin would kill him on it. Amazing what people said even though facts were out there.

[CincyHorseplayer]

What's funny is that the party line of poly promotion has been bought hook,line,and sinker by some.It's not a neutral surface.It's not a universal surface.It's a 3rd surface unique unto itself.

The respect shown it as what defines a champion is absurd.All the ducking talk about "Champions race on BC day" is unfounded.The promotion of this surface and the BC themselves have ruined the relevance of BC days.That they are playing out the hypocrisy is as amusing as RA's detractors and their 4 month campaign.

[ghostyapper]

Don't get all worked up over defending her skipping the bc. There is a G1 race October 3rd that will be run on dirt, not poly.

She was not even nominated.

[tzipi]

I don't care Rachael has faced top girls, and faced the boys and beat them all in the races. Something Zenyatta's camp has NOT done given tons of chances(face boys).

Not defending just showing how people make things up and spew their "facts" when they are proven not true. "Oh rachael is ducking poly and whatever else" Oh but they don't mention how Europeans admitted to DUCKING dirt races and Curlin if Breeders Cup was on dirt.

I think people now will just avoid John Gosden aticle because they've spewed too much about Polyturf ducking when its proven fact that the Eropeans admitted to ducking dirt and Curlin if the Cup was on dirt. Yup no one actually reads what goes on in the sport just say what they want to make up about it or whoever.

[the little guy]

I don't care Rachael has faced top girls, and faced the boys and beat them all in the races. Something Zenyatta's camp has NOT done given tons of chances(face boys).

Not defending just showing how people make things up and spew their "facts" when they are proven not true. "Oh rachael is ducking poly and whatever else" Oh but they don't mention how Europeans admitted to DUCKING dirt races and Curlin if Breeders Cup was on dirt.

I think people now will just avoid John Gosden aticle because they've spewed too much about Polyturf ducking when its proven fact that the Eropeans admitted to ducking dirt and Curlin if the Cup was on dirt. Yup no one actually reads what goes on in the sport just say what they want to make up about it or whoever.


OK, you won me over. I'll find out about the statue base.

[tzipi]

Yes we really do need that base back. That statue IS Belmont Park. It's one hell of a beautiful statue with all that black marble and great words about Sec.
I'm sure(hopefully) NYRA is working on it.

[joanied]

OK, you won me over. I'll find out about the statue base.

That's great, little guy...please let us know.
Thanks:ThmbUp:

[joanied]

Good Post! :ThmbUp:

I second that :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: great post, tzipi.

[Steve R]

Don't get all worked up over defending her skipping the bc. There is a G1 race October 3rd that will be run on dirt, not poly.

She was not even nominated.
So what? You make it sound like horses are obligated to run in certain races and if they don't it reflects badly on them and their connections. Relax. Racing is full of "historical", "important" matchups that could have, but never happened...and nobody cares. Not the least of these was Native Dancer and Tom Fool in 1953. These are certainly two of the greatest ever and after the TC both Native Dancer and Tom Fool were at Aqueduct in July and Saratoga in August. Vanderbilt and Winfrey could have run Native Dancer against Tom Fool in either the Brooklyn Handicap or the Whitney but they chose not to. You probably would have said they were afraid to try Native Dancer against the older Tom Fool at 10f or some such crap like that.

Get over yourself. The more you rant on Rachel Alexandra, the more foolish and insignificant you appear. despite what you think or say, she WILL be remembered as one of racing's great fillies or mares.

[tzipi]

Did this person rant all day when Zenyatta ducked boys numerous times on her "track",Polyturf.

[bisket]

this may be fropm left field but take the kick back into consideration when playing three yeard olds in the derby that trained exclusively in california!!

[joanied]

Did this person rant all day when Zenyatta ducked boys numerous times on her "track",Polyturf.

Now there it is... why isn't 'he' or anyone else knocking RA and JJ saying anything about the Zenyatta camp...her campaign has been one of disappointment for many...anyone wants to rant about the 'ducking' issue needs to look at Z's career...especially this year...now, I LOVE:kiss: that mare, but come on now...at least the RA connections have broken new ground and have been nothing short of courageous in their handeling of Rachels career...at least the Z camp should have allowed her to run against the colts one damned time out there in lala land!!

[joanied]

So what? You make it sound like horses are obligated to run in certain races and if they don't it reflects badly on them and their connections. Relax. Racing is full of "historical", "important" matchups that could have, but never happened...and nobody cares. Not the least of these was Native Dancer and Tom Fool in 1953. These are certainly two of the greatest ever and after the TC both Native Dancer and Tom Fool were at Aqueduct in July and Saratoga in August. Vanderbilt and Winfrey could have run Native Dancer against Tom Fool in either the Brooklyn Handicap or the Whitney but they chose not to. You probably would have said they were afraid to try Native Dancer against the older Tom Fool at 10f or some such crap like that.

Get over yourself. The more you rant on Rachel Alexandra, the more foolish and insignificant you appear. despite what you think or say, she WILL be remembered as one of racing's great fillies or mares.

SteveR...welcome to PA :) ...and I sure like your post:ThmbUp:

[tzipi]

Two things certain people are ducking and they know it.
1-Zenyata stays in one place against just girls. They get so mad that they just attack Rachael for running in Classics and against boys. Why else would you complain? She's done WAY more than Zenyatta.

2-Europeans admitted they would duck Curlin and others if the Breeders Cup was on dirt. I wonder why? As the article posted in OP shows. But these people never said a word bashing them. Why you ask?...because they do not read about the sport or know what's gone on in it. Why else not mention them? Because they did'nt know.

When Zenyatta faces the boys just even once then I'm sure her and Rachael will sit down for a cup of coffee.

[westny]

Yes we really do need that base back. That statue IS Belmont Park. It's one hell of a beautiful statue with all that black marble and great words about Sec.
I'm sure(hopefully) NYRA is working on it.

I don'rt know about that. I was at Belmont the day City on Line crashed into the marble base and broke his legs.

I was in the Club House patio talking across the path (which leads to the tunnel and track) to my to my pal who was on the other side of the divide when City On Line came barreling by doing 35mph...ran straight toward the statue until he saw it and tried to avoid it causing him to slide into the marble base and break his back legs.
. A horrible accident to witness...especially since it took the better part of 30 minutes to hoist the poor soul into an ambulance while he tried to stand.

I believe the wooden base is probably less dangerous if another horse happens to escape and slides into the wooden base which has alot less resistance than marble.

I hope NYRA does not replace the marble.

[tucker6]

This thread has too many good posts that are spot on. I recommend we lock it and move onto more asinine endeavors like b!tching about RA not being able to get 10F. Who's with me?

[tucker6]

I don'rt know about that. I was at Belmont the day City on Line crashed into the marble base and broke his legs.

I was in the Club House patio talking across the path (which leads to the tunnel and track) to my to my pal who was on the other side of the divide when City On Line came barreling by doing 35mph...ran straight toward the statue until he saw it and tried to avoid it causing him to slide into the marble base and break his back legs.
. A horrible accident to witness...especially since it took the better part of 30 minutes to hoist the poor soul into an ambulance while he tried to stand.

I believe the wooden base is probably less dangerous if another horse happens to escape and slides into the wooden base which has alot less resistance than marble.

I hope NYRA does not replace the marble.
So you recommend that a freak accident should end the enjoyment millions have had over the years?? By way of corollary, if someone were to die by crashing into the steel beams on the Golden Gate Bridge, should we end driving on the bridge, or even better, should we replace the steel beams with straw?? That sounds far fetched, but it is exactly what you are recommending. You cannot prevent all accidents or deaths, no matter how much you try. Shit happens. Really, it does!

[tzipi]

I agree. Because a freak accident that happened once since the statue was there and probably will never happen again,we should not get a beautiful inscribed marble base about Secretariat and keep a plain wooden one that says nothing about him??

I'm sure you've been there when a horse has snapped a leg unfortunately and all the bad things that surround it. Are you hoping NYRA cancels racing?

I'm sorry I just don't get not replacing a written marble base about Sec,because a freak accident happened and just keep a plain wooden box which would still damage a horses head or spine if hit at full speed.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Did this person rant all day when Zenyatta ducked boys numerous times on her "track",Polyturf.
If you did a search on some of my posts over the last few months I have asked many times about Zenyatta's ducking and never got ONE answer to the following questions - Why was the Hollywood Gold Cup Ok for her stablemate Life Is Sweet but not for Zenyattta? They both came out of the same race and after the HGC they ended up in the same race together. Why did she duck the Pac Classic at 10F? She has never raced against boys and never raced over 9F, why not kill two birds with one stone? Why duck the Goodwood? Same day, distance, track, weight for age conditions as the Lady's Secret - just there will be boys in the gate. Again, Zero answers from those who demand that Rachel do things no other filly in recent history has done. You will not see the Rachel bashers use the words 'duck" and "Zenyatta" in the same sentence. It's just the way they run.

[tzipi]

That's why I said it's because these people do not read about or really know the sport. They just make empty comments. My last post addressing it.

Zenyatta has ducked every race against boys. She has not tackled any classics. She has'nt dominated every single race. People against Rachael are just jealous. Why bash a horse who's done so much more that Zenyatta ever has or ever will? Secretly they say "Damn why can't we run against boys and do that or run in big spots and have that feeling!". So they say ridiculous things to make it "better".

Ducking poly or whatever. They will not address how the trainer of Ravens Pass said they would have NOT run against Curlin and others would've passed on races if they were at Churchill and on dirt. All in article posted in OP.

No person directing their feelings of the poly "duck" will show where they beat up on Ravens Pass or owners of Ravens Pass and others for saying they would duck the races if they were on dirt. The trainer said it's two different surfaces. I'll take their word on it.

Go Zenyatta!(even though I want u against the boys just once,but they think you can't win so it won't happen or it would've already)
Get back marble Secretariat statue!
Go Rachael!

[Bruddah]

this may be fropm left field but take the kick back into consideration when playing three yeard olds in the derby that trained exclusively in california!!

Bisket, I really like your posts, but please stop giving these Butt heads the keys to my Derby elimination methods. Usually, the West Coast colts get all the hype and take in a lot of bets. Only to run 5th or worse.

Please, all you Butt Heads, ignore Biskets. ;)

[tucker6]

If you did a search on some of my posts over the last few months I have asked many times about Zenyatta's ducking and never got ONE answer to the following questions - Why was the Hollywood Gold Cup Ok for her stablemate Life Is Sweet but not for Zenyattta? They both came out of the same race and after the HGC they ended up in the same race together. Why did she duck the Pac Classic at 10F? She has never raced against boys and never raced over 9F, why not kill two birds with one stone? Why duck the Goodwood? Same day, distance, track, weight for age conditions as the Lady's Secret - just there will be boys in the gate. Again, Zero answers from those who demand that Rachel do things no other filly in recent history has done. You will not see the Rachel bashers use the words 'duck" and "Zenyatta" in the same sentence. It's just the way they run.
I will say this about Zenyatta. Until she strays outside CA and the same tired girls she seems to race against, her winning streak deserves an asterick. Her record this year in both number of races as well as quality severely pales in comparison to RA. Moss and Sherriffs have done a great disservice to Zenyatta. She is a great mare who is limited by the lack of faith within her own ownership.

[Java Gold@TFT]

I will say this about Zenyatta. Until she strays outside CA and the same tired girls she seems to race against, her winning streak deserves an asterick. Her record this year in both number of races as well as quality severely pales in comparison to RA. Moss and Sherriffs have done a great disservice to Zenyatta. She is a great mare who is limited by the lack of faith within her own ownership.
I personally have no problem with Zenyatta as a race horse but I do agree that her connections in their pursuit of perfection have done her legacy a great disservice. I was a huge fan of Personal Ensign. When the time came she was in the Whitney and then in the BC Distaff facing a loose on the lead winner of the KY Derby. And she did it all with ankles being held together with pins. I would hate to see her modern record broken without facing serious competition this year.

[bks]

tzipi wrote:

So,Europeans duck races unless they are on PolyTurfTrack and I would like to know why Zenyatta would'nt run against the boys in the numerous chances she's had out there or tried dirt?

This 'great thread' began with a post that contained a pretty bad factual error. Zenyatta crushed the champion mare Ginger Punch on dirt. Cantored by her at Oaklawn, you might recall.

And it sounds like Gosden was more concerned about the kickback than Curlin. But I only read the excerpt in this thread, so maybe not.

Zenyatta's handlers are annoying, yes. I wish she had been in the Woodward, because with that set-up, she goes right by them. Shame we'll never know.

[the little guy]

I'll let you in on a secret.......Ginger Punch was slow.

[tzipi]

"This thread began with a factual error about Zenyatta and dirt." It was really about Euro runners and dirt. Yeah I think Zenyatta could face more than just girls and Poly every race.

Yes the trainer said "kickback" but also he would not run against Curlin if it was on dirt and other trainers said the same thing because "Polyturf" is not dirt. It was in the article. So post was about why he's not bashed like Jackson is. They would've ducked dirt.

The post was about how no one bashes Euro's for ducking dirt(prob because no one knew until now) just bashing Jackson for saying no to that "polyturf".


WHAT'S NEXT? MAN O WAR DUCKED TRIPLE CROWN!!!! Anyway,we all know who's been I guess "ducking". It's pretty clear who's faced better and went after the better and harder challenges. Cmon

[tzipi]

Oh and..
Zenyatta's handlers are annoying, yes. I wish she had been in the Woodward, because with that set-up, she goes right by them. Shame we'll never know.

What do you mean shame? She did'nt show up. Again,what do you mean shame we'll never know?. Her and her camp have had TONS on chances to race boys and "blow by" them all on her own polyturf and own Cal track but never once has taken the challenge!

Do you honestly believe her camp did'nt think their would be good pace up front with Da'Tara and Rachael going and maybe if someone else went. She was'nt there because they knew.

[cj]

Zenyatta's Apple Blossom has turned into one of the most over hyped wins I can remember in recent years.

[Robert Goren]

Back in the 1960's there was a mare named Tosmah. Other mares used too run against the boys to duck her. Now that was great race horse!

[Gorgeous George]

This whole Rachel Vs Zenyatta thing is tedious. Just accept them for being two outstanding fillies and stop boring everyone with the same arguement every week.:bang:

[Humph]

That's funny. All the talk about Rachael and ducking this and that,even thoughs she's faced boys unlike some "champs".

John Gosden said he WOULD NOT HAVE RUN Raven's Pass against Curlin if the Breeders Cup was on a DIRT track. Only ran Raven's Pass in Cup because it was on the turf,sorry I mean Polytrack. Easier to run on with no kickback and it runs like turf. They know Curlin whips Raven's Pass on dirt.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/47695/pro-ride-surface-attracts-europeans

Gosden said on the same subject: "I would not be running Raven’s Pass in the Classic if it was still on the dirt. The problem with dirt is not the surface you are running on but the kickback. If European horses have never suffered kickback in their face, it can put them right out of their stride.

Also another trainer in article saying he would not run Sixties Icon in the Cup if it was at Churchill and DIRT track.

So,Europeans duck races unless they are on PolyTurfTrack and I would like to know why Zenyatta would'nt run against the boys in the numerous chances she's had out there or tried dirt?

NOT ONE WORD of bashing about Gosden saying he would duck Curlin on dirt but all the heat on Jackson for saying well I wont run on that polyturf. Hmmmmmmm?

Again not talking about HOF or greatest horse of all time or whatever the current talk is. Just WHY not the bashing on trainers ducking the best horses on dirt and admitting to it. Why just the bashing on Rachael or Jackson when they've proved so much more?

I remember Gosden saying that he was not going run his colt Lucarno in the St. Leger ( run over 14 1/2 furlongs ) because of the lack of stamina in the horse's pedigree ( the dam was a sprinter) . In the end , John decide to run and Lucarno won easily.

And , despite Gosden's doubts , who knows what would have happened if Raven's and Curlin had met on dirt ? Looking at Raven's background ( US bred, with plenty of dirt performers in his pedigree ), he might well have taken to the surface.

Also, saying that , across the board , Euros duck racing on dirt ( in the BC )just isn't true . Plenty have come , tried - with not a great deal of success - but still they've come back for more on what is very much an alien surface to them.

[Bruddah]

Zenyatta's Apple Blossom has turned into one of the most over hyped wins I can remember in recent years.

I know you have a trophy room full of these, but here's another AMEN BRUDDAH!! Her Apple Blossom win was a $300k gift check for showing up. Which is all she had to do in order to take the winners share down. :ThmbDown:

[joanied]

This thread has too many good posts that are spot on. I recommend we lock it and move onto more asinine endeavors like b!tching about RA not being able to get 10F. Who's with me?

:lol: :jump: :lol:

[joanied]

So you recommend that a freak accident should end the enjoyment millions have had over the years?? By way of corollary, if someone were to die by crashing into the steel beams on the Golden Gate Bridge, should we end driving on the bridge, or even better, should we replace the steel beams with straw?? That sounds far fetched, but it is exactly what you are recommending. You cannot prevent all accidents or deaths, no matter how much you try. Shit happens. Really, it does!

:ThmbUp: Right on...and once the marble base is replaced...if my memory serves me right, there's enough room to place some sort of pretty fence around it, so that, in like a hundred years from now, another freak accident happens, the loose horse would hit the border-fence around it and not the marble;)

[joanied]

I personally have no problem with Zenyatta as a race horse but I do agree that her connections in their pursuit of perfection have done her legacy a great disservice. I was a huge fan of Personal Ensign. When the time came she was in the Whitney and then in the BC Distaff facing a loose on the lead winner of the KY Derby. And she did it all with ankles being held together with pins. I would hate to see her modern record broken without facing serious competition this year.

Your post and tucker6 post say it very well:ThmbUp: ...if Zenyatta could talk, I'd bet our farm she'd be telling Moss & Sherriff's to give her a shot at real immortality...yes indeed, they love the mare, but just do not have the courage to allow her to show just how great she could be.
It's shame.

[tzipi]

Thread is not continued b!itching about Rach vs Zenyatta. It clealy was a thread about why some owners and trainers get bashed but not other for the same things they do. It was about Raven Pass vs Curlin Breeders Cup. Not Rach vs Zenyatta.

Also to person saying, hey not all Euros duck dirt across the board. Well who even said that? I said Gosden admitted he would not run on dirt and also other horses said they would not run in that Cup if it was on dirt. Agree, some dirt trainers try poly and some Euro trainers try dirt. But the point was Gosden did'nt or would'nt have gotten bashed like Jackson did. That's all.

Again I think it's because people don't read about it.

Well anyway forget poly,dirt,etc and on to todays racing! :)

[Judge Gallivan]

I know you have a trophy room full of these, but here's another AMEN BRUDDAH!! Her Apple Blossom win was a $300k gift check for showing up. Which is all she had to do in order to take the winners share down. :ThmbDown:

Except Ginger Punch was 2/5 and Zenyatta was 9/5, so it wasn't exactly common knowledge on the day.

[bks]

Zenyatta's Apple Blossom has turned into one of the most over hyped wins I can remember in recent years.

Not overhyping it here. The claim was Zenyatta never won on dirt. She won, and very easily against the top mare at the time. That's all.

What is nuts about this subject is: for all we know, dirt is Zenyatta's best surface. Why do people assume that because a horse does most of its running on synthetic that the horse prefers synthetic?

Do you remember who the favorite in the Derby was going to be this year? If the horse hadn't shipped to NY for his preps, the same nonsense would have been spewed about him.

[tucker6]

Why do people assume that because a horse does most of its running on synthetic that the horse prefers synthetic?


I don't know. Why don't we ask Moss and Sherriffs why they only run her on poly? I assume they must know something we don't.

[tzipi]

What is nuts about this subject is: for all we know, dirt is Zenyatta's best surface. Why do people assume that because a horse does most of its running on synthetic that the horse prefers synthetic?.

Yeah if it's her best suface maybe(dirt) then why not go after bigger races on dirt(maybe against boys)? I'm sure these people are professionals and know what the best surface is. A trainer always runs his horses on their best surface. Are we saying they know her best surface is dirt and the don't run on it??

[ghostyapper]

I don't know. Why don't we ask Moss and Sherriffs why they only run her on poly? I assume they must know something we don't.

Talk about a layup for me :D

Like jackson and asmussen know something about a certain distance

[Java Gold@TFT]

Talk about a layup for me :D

Like jackson and asmussen know something about a certain distance
And how many times has Zenyatta run at your precious distance? :lol:

why did they duck the Pac Classic if she would have no problem with the distance? Maybe she can't run 10F and Moss knows it. Maybe she can't beat males and Moss knows it. Duck, duck, goose. You have never answered that question while you continue to hold Rachel's owner to a different standard. Fess up.

[ghostyapper]

And how many times has Zenyatta run at your precious distance? :lol:

why did they duck the Pac Classic if she would have no problem with the distance? Maybe she can't run 10F and Moss knows it. Maybe she can't beat males and Moss knows it. Duck, duck, goose. You have never answered that question while you continue to hold Rachel's owner to a different standard. Fess up.

You can continue to try and make this argument out to be zenyatta vs rachel but the fact it is not and has never been. The argument has always been rachel's actual abilities vs her fan clubs warped view of her abilities.

[FenceBored]

You can continue to try and make this argument out to be zenyatta vs rachel but the fact it is not and has never been. The argument has always been rachel's actual abilities vs her fan clubs warped view of her abilities.

<austrian_accent>How does it make you feel to know that Rachel Alexandra is a better racehorse than Ghostzapper? This causes you deep distress, no? </austrian_accent>

[Java Gold@TFT]

You can continue to try and make this argument out to be zenyatta vs rachel but the fact it is not and has never been. The argument has always been rachel's actual abilities vs her fan clubs warped view of her abilities.
I never said it was Zenyatta vs Rachel. I merely asked why the double standard for the two horses? You hold up Rachel to the standard of winning at 10F against males but don't do the same thing for Zenyatta. Why not hold up Goldikova to the same standard? Hell, she's never won a race over a mile in her life. I guess that means she hasn't established herslef as a great filly or mare in your book. Face it, you've got some kind of hard on for a 1/16th of a mile and you won't let go until next year's Classic at CD. Every other horse will get a free ride from you until then and even then you will find some excuse for Rachel winning.

[CincyHorseplayer]

The argument about distance is based off a simple minded notion that a front runner won't keep going but the closer will.And that's just not true.Races at longer distances merely set up different and usually are run slower early.There is no guarantee the pace would be just as fast as the Preakness or Woodward and RA would have died in the last 16th of a mile.

The front runner quits,the closer goes by.Plain wrong to make such assumptions in either direction.

Ghostyapper,to the unitiated has been bashing this horse for nearly 4 months.The only thing he has left to hold onto is what he thinks is a common sense notion.Races don't play into any generalities like this,not at the highest levels of the game.

[ghostyapper]

I never said it was Zenyatta vs Rachel. I merely asked why the double standard for the two horses? You hold up Rachel to the standard of winning at 10F against males but don't do the same thing for Zenyatta. Why not hold up Goldikova to the same standard? Hell, she's never won a race over a mile in her life. I guess that means she hasn't established herslef as a great filly or mare in your book. Face it, you've got some kind of hard on for a 1/16th of a mile and you won't let go until next year's Classic at CD. Every other horse will get a free ride from you until then and even then you will find some excuse for Rachel winning.

Wow do you really have that much trouble comprehending a simple point? I hold rachel up to this standard because that is what her fan club thinks of her and have criticized me for the last few months for not thinking the same.

But if it makes you feel better, I will call out any zenyatta fans if she ducks the bc classic and after that race is run they are on here talking cocky how she would have dominated the race. This is 1 of the many immature acts of the rachel fan club.

But I think you have highjacked the original posters thread again because we are only supposed to be criticizing europeans here.

[tucker6]

But I think you have highjacked the original posters thread again because we are only supposed to be criticizing europeans here.
Precisely. Aren't you European??

[PaceAdvantage]

Talk about a layup for me :D

Like jackson and asmussen know something about a certain distanceOnly problem (but a BIG one) with this logic is that she's done nothing but win as the distances grow longer, plus they have yet to run her at 10, so how do they "know something" about a certain distance? Could it be her sire, who WON the Travers at 10f and finished a close second in the MILE AND HALF Belmont? Oh wait, that would NOT suggest distance limitations....:lol:

At least Moss and Sheriffs ran Z on the dirt, so they have a bit of an idea with which to formulate their theories.

Sounds to me as though this "10f theory" of yours resides purely in your own head, not Jackson's/Asmussen's.

[gm10]

All this euro-bashing will never really hold up. The BC is an American event. You expect American trainers to show up with their best animals. You can't hold the Euro's to the same expectations. They have to fly 10.000 miles to get to Santa Anita. You can't call it 'ducking', coz you don't have the right to assume that they should come at all from this far just for one race. Especially since the opposite almost never happens. It's like saying that Curlin ducked Raven's Pass many times when Ravens was running in Europe.

[joanied]

I never said it was Zenyatta vs Rachel. I merely asked why the double standard for the two horses? You hold up Rachel to the standard of winning at 10F against males but don't do the same thing for Zenyatta. Why not hold up Goldikova to the same standard? Hell, she's never won a race over a mile in her life. I guess that means she hasn't established herslef as a great filly or mare in your book. Face it, you've got some kind of hard on for a 1/16th of a mile and you won't let go until next year's Classic at CD. Every other horse will get a free ride from you until then and even then you will find some excuse for Rachel winning.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: good post, javagold...

[joanied]

You can continue to try and make this argument out to be zenyatta vs rachel but the fact it is not and has never been. The argument has always been rachel's actual abilities vs her fan clubs warped view of her abilities.

Putting aside the Rachel vs Zenyatta argument...and going straight to your assumption that Rachel can't get the extra distance...I guess you must KNOW something no one else does:confused: ...with all she's done so far, and with the fact that there is stamina within her bloodlines, and also considering her easy cruising speed, her long effortless stride, her size and her physical attributes such as a huge girth, wide chest, and that after every race she's run, her training never takes a step backwards...other than the fact you obviously dis liking her 'fan club'...afterall, their views are completely 'warped'...there is no way you can state that she can't get the 'classic' distance...(which, as an aside, happens to be written up for colts, as the 'classic' distance for fillies has always been the 1 1/8th)...
you cannot seem to give her a tiny benefit of the doubt...so, IMO, what you need to do is sit back and wait...and when she does get the opportunity to get that extra 1/8th you are so hung up on...then IF she can't get it done, you can come here and use capitol letter to say 'I told ya so'...IMO, she'll get the distance...and also, IMO, the reason she hasn't been asked to go the 1 1/4 miles is because she's going to be back next year...there really is no good reason to have her run that extra ground until next year when she is a mature race mare.

Warped, indeed:ThmbDown:

[tucker6]

...so, IMO, what you need to do is sit back and wait...and when she does get the opportunity to get that extra 1/8th you are so hung up on.....
1. but she raced against claimers.
2. The surface was perfect for her, and unsuited to the other horses.
3. The Place horse almost caught her. Three more strides and she gets beat. She was lucky.
4. She had a longer layoff than xxx horse.
5. xxx horse had a bad ride, or he woulda beat her.
6. She benefited from her post position.
7. I hate Jess Jackson (this will never be acknowledged)


You'll never get the acknowledgement.

[bks]

Yeah if it's her (my note: Zenyatta's) best suface maybe(dirt) then why not go after bigger races on dirt(maybe against boys)? I'm sure these people are professionals and know what the best surface is. A trainer always runs his horses on their best surface. Are we saying they know her best surface is dirt and the don't run on it??

I imagine for their perspective, there is no need for them to run on it just for the sake it, the way the last two years have set up. The Breeders Cup is on synthetic this year and last, and right in her backyard. The Breeders Cup is horse racing's championships. They are pointing her to it. Every CA track is synthetic. There are no close dirt options without shipping her a great distance every race! All of that equals running on synthetic, where she can dominate anyway, even if it's NOT her best surface.

Having said that, I hate that they're not more aggressive. It doesn't mean she's not a monster on dirt.

If I Want Revenge had never run on dirt before the Derby, by your logic we should have thought synthetic was his best surface. Many on this board would have been saying he was a "polycrap horse", and they would have been dead wrong. Fact is, you don't know until they try it.

When Zenyatta tried it, she galloped. Nothing more, nothing less.