View Full Version : I used to look forward
Bruddah
09-21-2009, 10:34 PM
to the Breeders Cup. Last year, I had no interest and didn't bet or watch it. I am afraid my feelings are just as ambivalent this year. I absolutely could care less. :ThmbDown:
Sorry, but they have lost this old man and I probably won't bet or watch it again. Not because of the artificial surface entirely. Mainly because of the way the "Blue Bloods" want to shove what they want down our throats. I am getting old enough and obstinate enough, I don't have to take their crap anymore.
levinmpa
09-21-2009, 10:49 PM
I'm definitely not as interested in the Breeders' Cup as I used to be. 3 Reasons.
I very much dislike the synthetic surface.
I do not enjoy the extra races and splitting the events into 2 days.
I prefer Tom Durkin calling the races. Trevor Denmen just doesn't give it the same big time feel that Durking gave it for 20 years.
I think the 8 races were perfect. The Breeders' Cup has gotten greedy over the years, and tweaked the event to the point that is not as enjoyable as it once was. On a positive note, I'm glad they finally caved in and will make the switch to the standardized color saddle towels this year.
ranchwest
09-21-2009, 11:51 PM
Going to the Breeders Cup at LS ruined it for me.
Hosshead
09-22-2009, 05:39 AM
Even living only 20 min. from this event, not only am I not going, but doubt if I'll even watch on T.V.
To me the phoney track surface makes it meaningless.
I also don't like it split into 2 days. But since it's on polycrap, I couldn't care less.
Wiley
09-22-2009, 07:15 AM
I'm definitely not as interested in the Breeders' Cup as I used to be. 3 Reasons.
I very much dislike the synthetic surface.
I do not enjoy the extra races and splitting the events into 2 days.
I prefer Tom Durkin calling the races. Trevor Denmen just doesn't give it the same big time feel that Durking gave it for 20 years.
I think the 8 races were perfect. The Breeders' Cup has gotten greedy over the years, and tweaked the event to the point that is not as enjoyable as it once was. On a positive note, I'm glad they finally caved in and will make the switch to the standardized color saddle towels this year.
You hit on the same main reasons for me. :ThmbUp:
I'll probably play some of the races only for the large betting pools looking for some value wagers.
I see one year was enough for the all Ladies Day as they are adding the Marathon to the Friday lineup to bump up a pick 6 with 6 BC races now. So much for highlighting the girls! :ThmbDown:
Let's see, say the event was at Churchill and Rachel and Zenyatta decide to run in the Distaff, oops the most interesting race of the year is on a Friday afternoon.
I'm chomping at the bit.
Last year was one of the es betting BCs I can remember and looking forward to the same this year. The hell with championships - I want good betting races. Poly offers that.
I agree with Tom 300%...
I can’t wait; loved the last one and hated the wet Monmouth version. (Although I love Monmouth)
One mans junk is another mans treasure I guess.
OTM Al
09-22-2009, 08:52 AM
Even if you hate the Poly, the turf races are still on the green. It's a great day of racing regardless and one of these days I'm going to nail it.....
rokitman
09-22-2009, 09:24 AM
Oct 24th this year, huh? Cheez. This is getting like the World Series.
If I was smart, I'd pick just one or two races and take my swing.
But I'm not.
46zilzal
09-22-2009, 10:01 AM
I'm definitely not as interested in the Breeders' Cup as I used to be. 3 Reasons.
I very much dislike the synthetic surface.
I do not enjoy the extra races and splitting the events into 2 days.
I prefer Tom Durkin calling the races. Trevor Denman just doesn't give it the same big time feel that Durkin gave it for 20 years.
.
Agreed as I was there for the first several.
magwell
09-22-2009, 10:08 AM
Three reasons I cant wait for B.C. days, VALUE VALUE VALUE......:cool:
Wiley
09-22-2009, 10:10 AM
Oct 24th this year, huh?
Looks like it's later this year, Nov. 6th and 7th
http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/editorial/full_edition.cgi
46zilzal
09-22-2009, 10:46 AM
Going to the Breeders Cup at LS ruined it for me.
That and Monmouth have to be in Last and Next to Last places of all that have run.
castaway01
09-22-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm with Dan and Tom---I always look forward to it---it's an awesome day for betting and you get to see lots of highly competitive races. Adding races to the card or shifting them around doesn't change any of that. It's still very entertaining and a great chance to make money too.
Black Ruby
09-22-2009, 11:50 AM
churchill downs total fustercluck last time they had it began the souring for me. I ended up calling in my bets because the lines were ridiculous, couldn't get food or beverage for the same reason. Plus they put structures in the infield so if you were on the first floor you couldn't see the backstretch and beginning of the home turn. Then the deluge at Monmouth. Then the races on the Nerf. And they're on the Nerf again this year. I'll watch, but won't wager 15% of what I would have 3 years ago. That's the way I am at Keeneland since they Nerfed it too. Go enjoy the atmosphere, have a few bourbons, ogle the fillies, but not a lot of wagering.
classhandicapper
09-22-2009, 12:08 PM
I would prefer that non turf championships bet settled on dirt instead of synthetic, but I am still looking forward to the races. There are bound to be a few entertaining match ups and even though abilities as a "synth handicapper" are nowhere near my talents on dirt, I should be able to find a few bets on a day like that.
I don't mind betting the races, there is definitely some value to be found. But as a fan of the sport, these are not going to be the championship races they were designed to be.
Hell, the BC admitted that themselves when they started offering purse enhancements to try to entice top horses.
Charli125
09-22-2009, 12:47 PM
I will be there for the first time this year, and am really looking forward to it. I would prefer dirt, but actually have done better historically on synthetics, so it's a wash.
senortout
09-22-2009, 01:20 PM
You old fogeys.....I strongly urge you to rekindle, refresh, re whatever it takes to get your old zest back....perhaps this link will help....suggest viewing the very first(1984) Classic as an aid...link follows...
http://www.breederscup.com/greatestmoments.aspx?year=1984&divisionname=classic
senortout
Bruddah
09-22-2009, 01:24 PM
You old fogeys.....I strongly urge you to rekindle, refresh, re whatever it takes to get your old zest back....perhaps this link will help....suggest viewing the very first(1984) Classic as an aid...link follows...
http://www.breederscup.com/greatestmoments.aspx?year=1984&divisionname=classic
senortout
If we are old fogeys, I suppose that makes you a young junior tout. You're gonna have to change your ID. :D
46zilzal
09-22-2009, 01:36 PM
You old fogeys.....I strongly urge you to rekindle, refresh, re whatever it takes to get your old zest back....perhaps this link will help....suggest viewing the very first(1984) Classic as an aid...link follows...
http://www.breederscup.com/greatestmoments.aspx?year=1984&divisionname=classic
senortout
or here
BlueShoe
09-22-2009, 02:21 PM
This old player just does not care for "Big Days",period.BC,Triple Crown,Sunshine Million,Calcup,and so on,almost always run on saturdays.These and other saturdays that feature several graded stakes races have me usually staying home.We all have our strengths and weaknesses,and mine is that I just cannot handicap these competitive stakes races that feature top runners coming from several different tracks.The BC is impossible for me,regardless of where it is run or what surface.The answer is to ignore the big races and focus on the undercards around the country.The problem there is that since I do not bet online,must visit my local track or otb site.On these days the places are very crowded and packed with amateurs that only visit once or twice a year.An air of confusion and uncertainty hangs over the whole place.This is something that is hard to define,but that veteran regulars sense.Give me a full field mid level claiming race for older colts and geldings,and you can have your grade I anytime.On BC Saturday will be at home and will skip the in between race hot air and switch over and watch the live runing right at post time,but the rest of the day it will be college football.
I can't wait! I can only compare with Monmouth 2007, but I thought last year was amazing!! The roar from the crowd when Zenyatta was nearing the finish line ... unforgettable.
Java Gold@TFT
09-22-2009, 02:35 PM
You old fogeys.....I strongly urge you to rekindle, refresh, re whatever it takes to get your old zest back....perhaps this link will help....suggest viewing the very first(1984) Classic as an aid...link follows...
http://www.breederscup.com/greatestmoments.aspx?year=1984&divisionname=classic
senortout
That's what it was supposed to be about and it was a great race. Unfortunately this is what we have now:
http://www.breederscup.com/video.aspx?id=36224
Put me in with the old fogeys.
rokitman
09-22-2009, 03:59 PM
Looks like it's later this year, Nov. 6th and 7th
http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/editorial/full_edition.cgi
What the fugg... it is just like the World Series now.
But I won't be farting about how terrible the BC has become now no matter what the date, or surface, is.
WinterTriangle
09-22-2009, 04:53 PM
There are bound to be a few entertaining match ups and even though abilities as a "synth handicapper" are nowhere near my talents on dirt.
I think you just hit on something.
What makes a horse race *intriinsically* great?
One's ability to handicap it....or the actual athletic feats of the participants in the races themselves?
Whether or not I wager a race doesn't add or subtract ANYTHING from it.
It's easy to grumble about what the BC has become and the decision to go synth in consecutive years... but still.
Two days of top horses and jockeys from all over the U.S., Canada and Europe, full fields, giant pools -- all under the Cali sun. That's horseplayer heaven in my book and I can't wait to hop on the plane.
Just hope that they ramp up the food and beverage offerings on Saturday as securing either was a tall order last year.
senortout
09-22-2009, 06:11 PM
If we are old fogeys, I suppose that makes you a young junior tout. You're gonna have to change your ID. :D
ya got that right!
Space Monkey
09-22-2009, 06:15 PM
Wow, the best horses from all over the world coming to the US for 2 days of great racing and here comes the BITCHIN AND MOANING. I went last year for the first time and it wa sso great to see these magnificent animals in person. Great horses can run on any kind of crap. Get over the poly thing. I got some advice for you all. Learn from last year. Euro's like it. Its been around for awhile now and most horses have form to go by. And the ones that don't wouldn't be running if their connections weren't confident that their pony could do well.
A separate day for the fillies and mares is a fantastic idea. They deserve it. It gives us 2 great days instead of 1.
Most of us struggled when poly came in. A lot of players just gave up and whine about it. Its about learning. I looked at it as a challenge. If I wanted to continue betting the tracks I wanted to, I had to learn how to handicap on it. I did. But I didn't have to do much other than just let some time go by.
bisket
09-22-2009, 06:34 PM
i'll be watching and playing the races. i would be happier if it was on dirt, but such is life. i don't think it'll be back on the poly for a long time after this though.
Valuist
09-22-2009, 07:05 PM
That and Monmouth have to be in Last and Next to Last places of all that have run.
Whats wrong with having at a venue other than SoCal, NY or KY? Yeah, it was sloppy at Mth. If it can rain at the Jersey shore in late Oct, it certainly can be cold and rainy in NY at that time of year (and Louisville for that matter as well).
jballscalls
09-22-2009, 07:19 PM
Whats wrong with having at a venue other than SoCal, NY or KY? Yeah, it was sloppy at Mth. If it can rain at the Jersey shore in late Oct, it certainly can be cold and rainy in NY at that time of year (and Louisville for that matter as well).
i like the rotation of so cal, ky, ny and random place. Lone Star was one of my favorite BC's to watch.
Gone2Golf
09-22-2009, 07:23 PM
I have to bet the BC because it still attracts the best horses and the biggest fields...leading to great value and high payoffs. Hit one or two races hard and you can cover months of action. Every year there are several performances that make you realize what unbelievable athletes these horses are...Goldikova was sensational last year! Sorry, can't buy the arguments against it, even on the syn.
Space Monkey
09-22-2009, 07:56 PM
i would prefer dirt too biskit. but i can live with the poly.
Whats wrong with having at a venue other than SoCal, NY or KY? Yeah, it was sloppy at Mth. If it can rain at the Jersey shore in late Oct, it certainly can be cold and rainy in NY at that time of year (and Louisville for that matter as well).
A condition for a track to host the BC is to have a turf and dirt/poly surface which can take fields of 14 ... not many tracks are capable of this (so I was told).
cj's dad
09-23-2009, 10:38 AM
I would assume that being capable of running a 1 & 1/4 mile two turn race is a necessity.
Bochall
09-23-2009, 11:23 AM
Did very well with the turf races last year (hit the Juv Turf, F & M Turf, Mile, and Turf) but missed all races on the kitty litter lotto surface...lesson learned. I have been thinking (look out!) that the SA crew must be very wary of the way the "track" played last year and they may do something to alter that....any thoughts? I expect the Euros to fly over in droves and invade the "dirt" races this year, but the contrarian in me says the surface will be kinder to speed in '09.
46zilzal
09-23-2009, 11:25 AM
Did very well with the turf races last year (hit the Juv Turf, F & M Turf, Mile, and Turf) but missed all races on the kitty litter lotto surface...lesson learned.
May I borrow this? It is the BEST description of that crap I have EVER HEARD!
Bochall
09-23-2009, 11:28 AM
May I borrow this? It is the BEST description of that crap I have EVER HEARD!Use at will sir...liberally.
senortout
09-23-2009, 11:38 AM
I would assume that being capable of running a 1 & 1/4 mile two turn race is a necessity.
Course it isn't Its been held at Belmont Park.
46zilzal
09-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Why not utilize it at TWO venues? They could charge for a lot more people coming through the gates. i.e. turf at Woodbine and dirt at Churchill or turf at Arlington and dirt at Belmont or the unthinkable, TURF at Newmarket and dirt over here some place....ALL along a very good idea (Euro/US split)
Java Gold@TFT
09-23-2009, 12:13 PM
Course it isn't Its been held at Belmont Park.
Senor is right - Belmont runs 10F around a turn and just a bit. The real kicker is running 12F on the turf with a gate of 14 starters. Not a lot of places can meet that request. Of course they have made distance adjustments in the past to accomadate certain track configuraltions.
Hialeah permanently would suit me just fine…
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/9666239.jpg
toetoe
09-23-2009, 03:07 PM
I prefer Tom Durkin calling the races.
There's another sign of how far we've sunk.
andymays
09-23-2009, 03:25 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/breederscup09/columns/story?columnist=moran_paul&id=4495212
Excerpt:
The decision to stage consecutive runnings of the Breeders' Cup on the artificial surface at Santa Anita is without question the worst in the history of the event. The setting and weather work. The quirky, controversial material underfoot is the problem and principal owner Jess Jackson's aversion to what he calls racing on, "plastic," has removed Rachel Alexandra, presumptive American Horse of the Year, from the prospective Breeders' Cup cast until 2010, when the event will be held at Churchill Downs, where the track is made of dirt.
Excerpt:
If the weather in Paris is dry in early October, Sea the Stars, who is based in Ireland with trainer John Oxx, will carry rider Mick Kinane into the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. He is, however, a huge, deep-girth colt unsuited to soft ground and such conditions at Longchamp will send him to California, where he will undoubtedly be heavily favored to win what amounts to the second Classic run on black turf.
plainolebill
09-23-2009, 03:34 PM
I don't mind betting AW tracks but running the BC over the surface takes a lot of the shine off for me. I also agree with the comments about diluting the impact by running too many races.
I'll be betting the races for sure. Maybe you'll read about an Oregon geezer that had the only winning P6 ticket. :lol:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/breederscup09/columns/story?columnist=moran_paul&id=4495212
Excerpt:
The decision to stage consecutive runnings of the Breeders' Cup on the artificial surface at Santa Anita is without question the worst in the history of the event. The setting and weather work. The quirky, controversial material underfoot is the problem and principal owner Jess Jackson's aversion to what he calls racing on, "plastic," has removed Rachel Alexandra, presumptive American Horse of the Year, from the prospective Breeders' Cup cast until 2010, when the event will be held at Churchill Downs, where the track is made of dirt.
Excerpt:
If the weather in Paris is dry in early October, Sea the Stars, who is based in Ireland with trainer John Oxx, will carry rider Mick Kinane into the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. He is, however, a huge, deep-girth colt unsuited to soft ground and such conditions at Longchamp will send him to California, where he will undoubtedly be heavily favored to win what amounts to the second Classic run on black turf.
You live in California, right Andy? Go and Sea The Stars, my friend, he's a superstar. As a true fan of the sport, you will regret it if you don't go and see one of the best horses ever just because he didn't run on your favourite surface.
Judge Gallivan
09-23-2009, 03:55 PM
You live in California, right Andy? Go and Sea The Stars, my friend, he's a superstar. As a true fan of the sport, you will regret it if you don't go and see one of the best horses ever just because he didn't run on your favourite surface.
Long term weather forecast suggests very little rain in Paris until the Arc. That means that chances of Sea The Stars running in BC are slim.
exiles
09-23-2009, 04:08 PM
They can have the recycled tires and plastic Breeders Cup and they can shove it up their you know what. they are not getting any of my money, till these blue bloods come to their senses.:ThmbDown:
Long term weather forecast suggests very little rain in Paris until the Arc. That means that chances of Sea The Stars running in BC are slim.
Knowing the French they'll probably water the course so the English horse doesn't win.
Seriously though he may go to the BC even if he runs in the arc.
Java Gold@TFT
09-23-2009, 04:44 PM
Knowing the French they'll probably water the course so the English horse doesn't win.
Seriously though he may go to the BC even if he runs in the arc.
Without looking it up, has an Arc winner evr won a BC race - turf or classic? I know at least 3 I can say no to.
Judge Gallivan
09-23-2009, 05:18 PM
Knowing the French they'll probably water the course so the English horse doesn't win.
Seriously though he may go to the BC even if he runs in the arc.
I doubt that even the French would go out of their way to chase the biggest star away from the race. Plus the sponsor who payed quite a few millions for the sponsorship isn't French and probably wouldn't like that.
From Oxx's coments I would make it unlikely that Sea The Stars would run both big races.
46zilzal
09-23-2009, 05:23 PM
Without looking it up, has an Arc winner ever won a BC race - turf or classic? I know at least 3 I can say no to.
Close but no they have not. Sakhee was the closest wasn't it?
I was there to go against old Dancing Brave. Even after he was beaten the rider ( a true pin head in the truest sense of the word) Eddery was telling the crowd why he still was the best that day.
Sounds much akin to the idiots at these tea parties.
Judge Gallivan
09-23-2009, 05:29 PM
I doubt that even the French would go out of their way to chase the biggest star away from the race. Plus the sponsor who payed quite a few millions for the sponsorship isn't French and probably wouldn't like that.
From Oxx's coments I would make it unlikely that Sea The Stars would run both big races.
Plus isn't the horse Irish?
Java Gold@TFT
09-23-2009, 05:39 PM
Close but no they have not. Sakhee was the closest wasn't it?
I was there to go against old Dancing Brave. Even after he was beaten the rider ( a true pin head in the truest sense of the word) Eddery was telling the crowd why he still was the best that day.
I added Trempolino to my list with Sakhhe and Dancing Brave.. Wasn't sure if I missed someone else.
cj's dad
09-23-2009, 08:04 PM
Course it isn't Its been held at Belmont Park.
I meant 2 turns as the max.
Robert Fischer
09-23-2009, 10:33 PM
some of the best fields we will race in North America this year
Without looking it up, has an Arc winner evr won a BC race - turf or classic? I know at least 3 I can say no to.
Dylan Thomas certainly didn't fare too well in the Monmouth mud.
I'm not sure ... it's usually too close to the BC and European trainers will obviously choose the Arc if they can't have both. It is the world championship for them, and the purse is bigger than even that of the Classic (about 6 million dollar).
I doubt that even the French would go out of their way to chase the biggest star away from the race. Plus the sponsor who payed quite a few millions for the sponsorship isn't French and probably wouldn't like that.
From Oxx's coments I would make it unlikely that Sea The Stars would run both big races.
I wasn't really serious though after the Dar Re Mi disqualification, you can't be sure!
I think the Arc result will also play a role in Oxx' decision. Imagine he finishes an unlucky second ... surely he'll be tempted to fly to California.
Valuist
09-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Synthetics= Socialization of Racing
This is the equivalent of wealth redistribution. Take a field of horses who figure to be strung out 10-12 lengths on real dirt, put them on Poly and the whole field is within 6 lengths at the finish. Eliminate the factor of pace in racing. What do you get? A bland, unwatchable, unbettable grouping of random events.
I always love the Breeders Cup races but I'll never attend another one after going to the one at Arlington.
Dirt; we get lovely days like the inside rail bias at Churchill (agree or disagree it doesn't matter to me) and the wet tracks at Monmouth. I had to place my bets ahead of time at Churchill, should have known better and it left a bitter, bitter taste in my mouth although I was able to change the last 1/2 of the day and come back.
Poly; You now have the Zenyetta and Rachel debate. I'm not sure why everyone rails on Rachel but that's been covered already too. It'll help bring more Euro's in based on last years success. And heavy rains allow turf to be run there and limits scratches in general.
I wonder if the fields would support two days in the following manner. One on just poly or dirt and the other turf and dirt or poly. But that may be too hard for the connections of the shippers and probably wouldn't work.
You'll never please all the horse racing fans so I wouldn't even bother trying if I were an executive. But I would try to please the biggest betting core audience.
I wonder how the numbers will be this year with another year of synthetics and the economy?
Synthetics= Socialization of Racing
This is the equivalent of wealth redistribution. Take a field of horses who figure to be strung out 10-12 lengths on real dirt, put them on Poly and the whole field is within 6 lengths at the finish. Eliminate the factor of pace in racing. What do you get? A bland, unwatchable, unbettable grouping of random events.
The public does just as well on the poly as on the dirt. They are equally (un)predictable. I prefer tight finishes myself but that's subjective of course.
andymays
09-27-2009, 03:12 PM
Oak Tree/Santa Anita workout webcam
http://www.oaktreeracing.com/content/workout-webcam
garyoz
09-27-2009, 04:26 PM
Went to 3 of the first 5, but have lost interest more every year. True, Lone Star was terrible (many Europeans stayed home) and Monmouth was bad. Also didn't like SoCal the year Mandella did so well (IMHO something wierd). I don't handicap BC any more. I watch the odds in the UK (Sporting Life site)--which I think are far more efficient paticularly on the poly and turf and arbitrage the US pool. You only need to find one or two inefficiencies to make your day.
Valuist
09-27-2009, 07:59 PM
The public does just as well on the poly as on the dirt. They are equally (un)predictable. I prefer tight finishes myself but that's subjective of course.
The percentage of winning favorites isn't the key here. Its the favorite/longshot syndrome where so many winners are either 6-5 or random 20-1 shots. No surface produces more head scratching results.
The percentage of winning favorites isn't the key here. Its the favorite/longshot syndrome where so many winners are either 6-5 or random 20-1 shots. No surface produces more head scratching results.
I wasn't only talking about the % of winning favourites.
The efficiency of the betting markets is very similar on both surfaces. So if you find them more random, it is probably more a reflection of how you handicap the poly rather than how 'handicappable' the poly is. If the public does well in certain types of races, and I don't .. I know that I have work to do.
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