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Chicken Man
09-21-2009, 07:23 PM
First time here, and have a question for all the KIAs here on Pace Advantage..what exactly has HANA done? Have they lowered takeout? Have they successfully used their influence on adding wagers? Have they done anything other than bitch and moan at takeout, which WON'T CREATE NEW FANS..the casual fan won't say "Horse racing takeout has gone from 20% to 15%, lets leave the slot machine and play the horses". Anyone who thinks that is either stupid or intellectually dishonest..

So, answer my question..

cj
09-21-2009, 07:26 PM
First time here, and have a question for all the KIAs here on Pace Advantage..what exactly has HANA done? Have they lowered takeout? Have they successfully used their influence on adding wagers? Have they done anything other than bitch and moan at takeout, which WON'T CREATE NEW FANS..the casual fan won't say "Horse racing takeout has gone from 20% to 15%, lets leave the slot machine and play the horses". Anyone who thinks that is either stupid or intellectually dishonest..

So, answer my question..

Well, at least you are obviously without an agenda. :lol:

I do have to ask, what is a KIA?

Chicken Man
09-21-2009, 07:30 PM
Instead of snide remarks about KIAs, how about you stick to the topic and answer the question?

cj
09-21-2009, 07:46 PM
Instead of snide remarks about KIAs, how about you stick to the topic and answer the question?

I was serious about that.

The first remark was certainly snide.

cj's dad
09-21-2009, 07:51 PM
First post is on Off Topic - that alone speaks volumns !!

Besides HANA - WTF have you done other than donate money on a daily/weekly basis to your local track?/ OTB?/ ADW?.

Indulto
09-21-2009, 07:57 PM
Instead of snide remarks about KIAs, how about you stick to the topic and answer the question?I love acronyms, myself, but "Killed In Action" is the best I can come up with that relates to high takeout. ;)

The reason some players both inside and outside of HANA believe lowering takeout will create new fans, is that doing so is expected to make winners out of some small players who could then be promoted to attract others. Lower takeout is generally expected to enable even new fans to maintain their bankrolls longer.

What do YOU think will create new fans? If you have a good answer, you could become racing's savior and perhaps a wealthy individual as well.

miesque
09-21-2009, 07:58 PM
First time here, and have a question for all the KIAs here on Pace Advantage..what exactly has HANA done? Have they lowered takeout? Have they successfully used their influence on adding wagers? Have they done anything other than bitch and moan at takeout, which WON'T CREATE NEW FANS..the casual fan won't say "Horse racing takeout has gone from 20% to 15%, lets leave the slot machine and play the horses". Anyone who thinks that is either stupid or intellectually dishonest..

So, answer my question..

My, my, my, aren't we quite appropriately named, especially in light of the snide offensive remark regarding all horseplayers on here which is what I assume you are getting at with the KIA reference (Killed In Action). Its evident by your post that the furthest thing from your mind is having an honest, good faith conversation and instead the entire purpose is just to taunt and lambast HANA, which means we must have actually had some sort of impact contrary to your claims. Let me guess, horsemen's group representative?

DJofSD
09-21-2009, 08:00 PM
I believe KIA==know it all.

castaway01
09-21-2009, 08:02 PM
First time here, and have a question for all the KIAs here on Pace Advantage..what exactly has HANA done? Have they lowered takeout? Have they successfully used their influence on adding wagers? Have they done anything other than bitch and moan at takeout, which WON'T CREATE NEW FANS..the casual fan won't say "Horse racing takeout has gone from 20% to 15%, lets leave the slot machine and play the horses". Anyone who thinks that is either stupid or intellectually dishonest..

So, answer my question..

Kinda tough for a new organization with 1500 members to instantly make state governments lower takeout, isn't it troll?

Donnie
09-21-2009, 08:02 PM
I think it stands for Know It Alls, but he ain't one so don't expect him to be the Saviour! Comes out both guns a blazing but obviously has NO idea about what it takes to change take outs or what HANA is all about. If that was their main goal, I woulda stood silently on the side.

Donnie
09-21-2009, 08:04 PM
::::sorry, DJ beat me to it::::

PaceAdvantage
09-21-2009, 08:07 PM
First time hereSomehow I doubt that...

You can now run back to where you came from and tell everyone you were kicked off of PaceAdvantage by that BIASED moderator for asking TOUGH QUESTIONS about their "beloved HANA."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

When in actuality, you were kicked off because as you so rightly point out, our quota for KIAs has been filled for the month already.

Horseplayersbet.com
09-21-2009, 09:17 PM
First time here, and have a question for all the KIAs here on Pace Advantage..what exactly has HANA done? Have they lowered takeout? Have they successfully used their influence on adding wagers? Have they done anything other than bitch and moan at takeout, which WON'T CREATE NEW FANS..the casual fan won't say "Horse racing takeout has gone from 20% to 15%, lets leave the slot machine and play the horses". Anyone who thinks that is either stupid or intellectually dishonest..

So, answer my question..
Just ask Betfair how lowering pricing has done nothing for them. You must be a horseman or a track exec.

Steve 'StatMan'
09-21-2009, 10:18 PM
I know I'm now up to 89.

chickenhead
09-21-2009, 10:27 PM
Chicken Man, your performance gives posters with chicken related names everywhere a bad rep.

Shame on you -- thats my job.

CBedo
09-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the mental ward today. Wow!

Imriledup
09-21-2009, 11:40 PM
OP must have been ousted from DMFF where they require your real name, dna sample, fingerprints and pee in a cup to post. The term KIA is frequently used over there, so good chance this Chicken man comes from the land of the plastic track and prosthetic forum. Seems like some sort of challenge to PA and the intelligence of their posters. Game on?

InsideThePylons-MW
09-22-2009, 12:00 AM
I do have to ask, what is a KIA?

Keep Indulto Amused

Imriledup
09-22-2009, 12:09 AM
Keep Indulto Amused:lol:

Indulto
09-22-2009, 04:09 PM
Keep Indulto Amused:lol: :jump:

Rapid Grey
09-30-2009, 01:18 PM
I'm wondering what HANA has accomplished as well.

Lot's of insults thrown around in this thread, not much infromation.

DeanT
09-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Hi Rapid,

For updates on what we have been working on, our newsletters kind of encapsulate everything

Most recent:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/07/hana-newsletter-vol-3-summer-2009.html

q1
http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hananewsmarch2009.html

Inaugural
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/12/hananews-your-quarterly-look-at.html

This quarters newsletter will be out early this month. We are putting it together now and we hope it will have a couple of items that will show more progress on some of the issues we have tackled this summer.

Just speaking for myself, I can honestly say I am a pretty impatient person when it comes to racing. I want things done yesterday. If I have learned something, it is that it has taken 100 years for the game to get into these bad habits and it takes some time and work to get them out of them. We are trying several items to move things forward and I hope we can succeed over the coming months and throughout 2010.

We hope to have some news on a new item soon, but to put it in perspective, this took over six months of work, phone calls, meetings and so on to move forward.

Anyway, I hope the above answers your question a little bit.

GameTheory
09-30-2009, 02:23 PM
I'm wondering what HANA has accomplished as well.

Lot's of insults thrown around in this thread, not much infromation.Behind this question always seems to be the unspoken assumption that they ought to have accomplished great things even though they are brand new. They have accomplished EXISTING, which is quite something since the idea of "giving horseplayers a voice" was bandied around for years, possibly decades before and no one ever did anything about it.

But change is tough, and change doesn't even start with change. It starts with small, mostly invisible steps that lay the groundwork for change -- that will make change possible. So the first step is making a few people here and there receptive to the very idea of change. You can't just make a bunch of demands and get anywhere. You've got to get people thinking about change and let that seed plant some roots. Then you've got to try to implement some tiny tiny changes -- things that are basically guaranteed not to fail. And on your end make some resources available so people will start coming to you for information. Etc etc. I think HANA is doing these things. Grand sweeping changes are not on the visible horizon yet although that is the ultimate goal.

To those that ask this question, what do YOU think they SHOULD have accomplished so far? Let's face it, most of those asking want HANA to fail because they are defenders of the status quo. If you are not, then don't ask what they've accomplished, ask what you can do to help them accomplish more...

DeanT
09-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Thanks for that GT.

I don't want this to be self-conragratulatory, or back slapping and I sincerely hope that it does not come off that way. But really, even getting on this after only about nine months of existence I think is an accomplishment.

http://www.equidaily.com/images/2009/tdnpcovr.jpg

That's a horseplayer - one of us - having our views noted in a major publication along with so-called "heavy hitters" like Bob Evans. Even one year ago we would not be represented on a thing like this. We know this does not change the world, or HANA should get a medal for it, but in dribs and drabs things like this over time, can and should give the horseplayer a voice. We have been silent for far too long.

Anyhow, sorry for the commercial, but I want folks to know we are trying to make progress whatever way we can.

LottaKash
09-30-2009, 02:52 PM
I gratefully applaud and appreciate all the HANA leaders and workers that sacrifice their time, efforts, and money, in representing the "Horseplayers", who are the "REAL" reason why there is pari-mutuel racing...

I am glad that HANA exists, and that I am a member.....:jump:

My best to all of you,

miesque
09-30-2009, 03:08 PM
The other thing I would like to point out is that we do have several projects underway and often when we are laying groundwork for any sort of improvements/changes often its not prudent to publicize the nitty gritty of what is taking place because it would be tremendously counterproductive. I personally am of the mindset to let our actions speak for themselves when they occur, I am not going to get on the loudspeaker and say "HANA is still steadily progressing on our target for XYZ" just to gratitously keep our name out there.

Also, I have to comment on these "What has HANA done questions" and why they are exactly the type of question that is not going to get a good faith response from me. Such a question being raised about an upstart, volunteer organization with meager resources after only a year of existence is either ignorant about just how business works and how deeply dysfunctional and entrenched everything is in racing or it is meant with the sole purpose to undercut credibility and express blatant disdain. Such a question is basically asking why HANA hasn't been able to solve the issues overnight that all the powerful organizations in this game with multi-million dollar budgets and paid staff have yet to solve. Gee, I am sorry, I apologize we are not a Board of Superheros that can accomplish the impossible and I apologize if we erroneously gave anyone that impression. All that we can do is try to continually move forward baby step by baby step giving horseplayers a voice by making their concerns and issues more visible and attempt to have them more directly/expediently addressed and keep chipping away at the colossal glacier of entrenched status policies, preceptions and mindsets with the ultimate goal of improving the game not just for horseplayers but all help contribute to the health and growth of the industry as a whole.

price
09-30-2009, 04:04 PM
I think awareness is the biggest accomplishment to this point. I am a subscriber to RTN which is a satellite tv provider of live racetrack signals. For years we were shut out on tracks like Del Mar, Oak Tree meeting at Santa Anita, Turfway, Kentucky Downs, Zia Park...etc. Only in the past few months have these signals become unlocked. I guess that could be that TVG has softened its stance or it could be that the tracks are now aware of the frustration with signal availability and have changed their tune. I give HANA credit for raising issues that are important to the player.

highnote
09-30-2009, 08:06 PM
To those that ask this question, what do YOU think they SHOULD have accomplished so far? Let's face it, most of those asking want HANA to fail because they are defenders of the status quo. If you are not, then don't ask what they've accomplished, ask what you can do to help them accomplish more...

To paraphrase JFK, "Ask not what your horseplayer group can do for you, but what you can do to help your horseplayer group change the industry for the betterment of everyone."

mikejlb
09-30-2009, 08:31 PM
Reading this thread makes me feel good. So many people recognize the time, effort, and expense that Jeff and many others have given. Game Theory seemed to really hit the nail right on the head with his very realistic opinion of HANA's progress.

We now have a voice that we have never had before, guys. I'm proud to be a member of this group! I have watched this group grow from small numbers to a repectable and still growing voice that will be heard.

lamboguy
09-30-2009, 08:54 PM
the guy who started this thread is clearly missing a few cards out of the deck. HANNA has come up with some good moves like singling in on a race instead of the boycott of a track. they have recognized most of the problems involved in the sport pertaining to bettors and owners.

i am not a member of HANNA, but i do share alot of their same views. their aproach is a bit different than mine, they want to do things a little at a time, i want to do it all at once!

rwwupl
09-30-2009, 10:13 PM
I gratefully applaud and appreciate all the HANA leaders and workers that sacrifice their time, efforts, and money, in representing the "Horseplayers", who are the "REAL" reason why there is pari-mutuel racing...

I am glad that HANA exists, and that I am a member.....:jump:

My best to all of you,

Let me with pride echo Lottakash. Thanks HANA :ThmbUp:

Imriledup
09-30-2009, 11:18 PM
Behind this question always seems to be the unspoken assumption that they ought to have accomplished great things even though they are brand new. They have accomplished EXISTING, which is quite something since the idea of "giving horseplayers a voice" was bandied around for years, possibly decades before and no one ever did anything about it.

But change is tough, and change doesn't even start with change. It starts with small, mostly invisible steps that lay the groundwork for change -- that will make change possible. So the first step is making a few people here and there receptive to the very idea of change. You can't just make a bunch of demands and get anywhere. You've got to get people thinking about change and let that seed plant some roots. Then you've got to try to implement some tiny tiny changes -- things that are basically guaranteed not to fail. And on your end make some resources available so people will start coming to you for information. Etc etc. I think HANA is doing these things. Grand sweeping changes are not on the visible horizon yet although that is the ultimate goal.

To those that ask this question, what do YOU think they SHOULD have accomplished so far? Let's face it, most of those asking want HANA to fail because they are defenders of the status quo. If you are not, then don't ask what they've accomplished, ask what you can do to help them accomplish more...

Great post.

Rapid Grey
10-01-2009, 01:31 AM
Behind this question always seems to be the unspoken assumption that they ought to have accomplished great things even though they are brand new. They have accomplished EXISTING, which is quite something since the idea of "giving horseplayers a voice" was bandied around for years, possibly decades before and no one ever did anything about it.

But change is tough, and change doesn't even start with change. It starts with small, mostly invisible steps that lay the groundwork for change -- that will make change possible. So the first step is making a few people here and there receptive to the very idea of change. You can't just make a bunch of demands and get anywhere. You've got to get people thinking about change and let that seed plant some roots. Then you've got to try to implement some tiny tiny changes -- things that are basically guaranteed not to fail. And on your end make some resources available so people will start coming to you for information. Etc etc. I think HANA is doing these things. Grand sweeping changes are not on the visible horizon yet although that is the ultimate goal.

To those that ask this question, what do YOU think they SHOULD have accomplished so far? Let's face it, most of those asking want HANA to fail because they are defenders of the status quo. If you are not, then don't ask what they've accomplished, ask what you can do to help them accomplish more...

How about having Mike Maloney type representatives on every major racing circuit in the country. With that the power to request the mutuel records of any racetrack on that circuit. Mutuel records that detail, in computer printout, the types, amounts and time of wagers on races that are questioned for either past-posting or drastically low payouts. If a horse leaves the gate at 10-1 and crosses the line in front at 5-2, know where the wagers came from that created the drop.

Just about every minor, and major, racetrack in the country has their own web-site. Have HANA request they start posting the steward rulings like they used to in the DRF. This is something simple and would require no time or effort from HANA.

Set up a "rant line" or rant e-mail address, where players could voice their opinions or concerns about issues they have encountered either live or via simulcast or home wagering. Rants would only be accepted from those who are HANA members. Every day, or week, select a rant, act on it and post what they found out. Maybe it's a DQ that was highly questionable. Maybe it's about lack of information provided by the host track, i.e. shoe changes, first time geldings or equipment changes that were announced later than they should be. Maybe it was a race that looked like the jockeys fixed (see River Downs 08/29/09 race 10).

I'm sure others have ideas as well. From my perspective though, and someone not currently a member, the only thing that I associate with HANA are the pool parties.

Thanks DeanT for your reply as well. I look forward to the latest newsletter.

DeanT
10-01-2009, 02:14 AM
How about having Mike Maloney type representatives on every major racing circuit in the country. With that the power to request the mutuel records of any racetrack on that circuit. Mutuel records that detail, in computer printout, the types, amounts and time of wagers on races that are questioned for either past-posting or drastically low payouts. If a horse leaves the gate at 10-1 and crosses the line in front at 5-2, know where the wagers came from that created the drop.


Agreed. Something very similar was discussed on a call with one of them "insider types" in the August 6th or 7th meeting. We also have a hopeful article for Horseplayer Magazine asking for exactly this from tracks (among other things re: past posting et al. It's done and we hope they run it. We would like to see a central spot for all wagering irregularities and any investigations to be posted for horseplayers. Politics and other things get in the way with it, but we think with some horseplayer pressure (like the Horseplayer Mag article and blog posts/letters) we might be able to give them a good push.

This is a snippet from the paper we wrote on what we would like to see, on the surface: "First, we need to make sure that any betting glitches are reported, are looked into and are transparent. In addition we should push to have the results of any investigations into wagering irregularities publicly published and disclosed. Currently the Thoroughbred Racing Associations do investigate incidents, however they are not reported transparently to racings customers. We would like to see a new mechanism instituted, whereby any investigations into past posting or wagering errors are posted publicly, perhaps through the Thoroughbred Racing Associations website. Stock markets report any trading irregularities to investors. Betfair reports any irregularities to their 2 million plus customers. Racing should do the same thing."

Just about every minor, and major, racetrack in the country has their own web-site. Have HANA request they start posting the steward rulings like they used to in the DRF. This is something simple and would require no time or effort from HANA.

Good idea. I wonder what everyone else thinks, but on the surface this does not sound overly difficult (other than the fact it is racing of course). We should put that on the agenda.

Set up a "rant line" or rant e-mail address, where players could voice their opinions or concerns about issues they have encountered either live or via simulcast or home wagering. Rants would only be accepted from those who are HANA members. Every day, or week, select a rant, act on it and post what they found out. Maybe it's a DQ that was highly questionable. Maybe it's about lack of information provided by the host track, i.e. shoe changes, first time geldings or equipment changes that were announced later than they should be. Maybe it was a race that looked like the jockeys fixed (see River Downs 08/29/09 race 10).

Another excellent thought. We have had no takers on some programming for us (re web pages) but stuff like that would fit the bill if we could get some help and make it a reality. Still looking and I know BillW wants something similar for members. We had some thoughts about a password protected chat area and so on (Chick's idea). Unfortunately again, it is time related and we need someone with programming experience who can take the ball and run with it and create it. We have a huge list of things we can do, that has been discussed and thrown around if we can get some help. On our work board this has slipped to about 7th on the list unfortunately.

Thanks for the thoughts.

andymays
10-01-2009, 11:09 AM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52764/last-minute-track-updates-now-on-equibase

Excerpt:

Equibase developed the new service in conjunction with racetracks and with feedback from the Horseplayers Association of North America. Besides having access to the latest scratches, horseplayers can now obtain other critical updates such as when a race has been moved from turf to dirt, distance changes, jockey changes, and amended wagering options on equibase.com. They can also register to receive an RSS feed for each track they are playing, enabling instant delivery of information to desktops and mobile devices.

Excerpt:

“During the Keeneland spring meet where we held our first HANA Day at the Races, Equibase and members of HANA met for a productive meeting at their office,” said HANA President Jeff Platt. “We are very pleased that as a result of that beginning and subsequent discussions, horseplayers will now have access to a centralized, accurate resource for reporting of late-breaking changes.”


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

highnote
10-01-2009, 11:56 AM
Seeing today's press release from Equibase makes me as proud as a father who has had the joy of watching his children's accomplishments as they grow up.

Of course, this baby has only begun to walk -- afterall, HANA is just one year old.

I wish people knew how much work goes on anonymously behind the scenes by the HANA board and a several key HANA members (and how little is done by me compared to them :blush: ).

Remember, all the work that is done by HANA members is done voluntarily and for the benefit of all horseplayers and hopefully, to the benefit of the racing industry and ultimately to the benefit of the greater good.

DanG
10-01-2009, 12:00 PM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52764/last-minute-track-updates-now-on-equibase

Excerpt:

Equibase developed the new service in conjunction with racetracks and with feedback from the Horseplayers Association of North America. Besides having access to the latest scratches, horseplayers can now obtain other critical updates such as when a race has been moved from turf to dirt, distance changes, jockey changes, and amended wagering options on equibase.com. They can also register to receive an RSS feed for each track they are playing, enabling instant delivery of information to desktops and mobile devices.

Excerpt:

“During the Keeneland spring meet where we held our first HANA Day at the Races, Equibase and members of HANA met for a productive meeting at their office,” said HANA President Jeff Platt. “We are very pleased that as a result of that beginning and subsequent discussions, horseplayers will now have access to a centralized, accurate resource for reporting of late-breaking changes.”


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
Thanks for posting this Andy and a HUGE thank you to the HANA team that volunteers their own time to represent all of us.

Indulto
10-03-2009, 12:23 AM
After encountering Waldrop’s NTRA blog remarks about marketing, I also checked out the HANA blog where I found the Equibase press release piece. Both reminded me of some posts in this thread.

As Dean already pointed out, Waldrop’s words were very familiar. He didn’t say anything that HANA and other reform-minded bloggers havn’t been saying. Whether HE can or will accomplish anything in that direction remains to be seen. Hopefully, he is trying to build upon, rather than usurp the role assumed by the HANA board. Since Waldrop will likely base his efforts on the players panel of 2004 (which the NTRA has previously ignored), his feet will have to be held to the fire just as HANA’s have been.… They have accomplished EXISTING, which is quite something since the idea of "giving horseplayers a voice" was bandied around for years, possibly decades before and no one ever did anything about it. …GT,
It seems to me that HANA’s most significant accomplishment has been its success in marketing its potential for accomplishment, which is why expectations for it have been so high despite efforts to keep them realistic. Sometimes HANA seems like an advertising agency conducting secret marketing campaigns.The other thing I would like to point out is that we do have several projects underway and often when we are laying groundwork for any sort of improvements/changes often its not prudent to publicize the nitty gritty of what is taking place because it would be tremendously counterproductive. I personally am of the mindset to let our actions speak for themselves when they occur, I am not going to get on the loudspeaker and say "HANA is still steadily progressing on our target for XYZ" just to gratitously keep our name out there. …POOF. B-H article appears. Voila! Everybody cheers.Seeing today's press release from Equibase makes me as proud as a father who has had the joy of watching his children's accomplishments as they grow up.

Of course, this baby has only begun to walk -- afterall, HANA is just one year old.

I wish people knew how much work goes on anonymously behind the scenes by the HANA board and a several key HANA members (and how little is done by me compared to them :blush: )

Remember, all the work that is done by HANA members is done voluntarily and for the benefit of all horseplayers and hopefully, to the benefit of the racing industry and ultimately to the benefit of the greater good.You’re not the only one who wants to know, but you are one of the only ones who can do something about that.

The blog piece shows how much goes on “anonymously” outside the board:

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/hana-equibase-real-time-scratches-and.html (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/hana-equibase-real-time-scratches-and.html)

Six of the first eight kudos-bearing comments were anonymous. Three of the first ten used pseudonyms that were recognizable only to some. So much for "real" names that give HANA greater credibility in negotiations; even as their platform is being pulled out from underneath them.

Also from the B-H article:… “Making it easier for horseplayers to acquire pertinent information such as scratches and program changes is simply good business and the tracks are happy to participate in this new arrangement,” said Chris Scherf, executive vice president of the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America. …Yet another marketing opportunity, this time for the TRA. Hopefully on-track and OTB players not connected to an electronic device will also have ready access to such information.To those that ask this question, what do YOU think they SHOULD have accomplished so far? Let's face it, most of those asking want HANA to fail because they are defenders of the status quo. If you are not, then don't ask what they've accomplished, ask what you can do to help them accomplish more...To paraphrase JFK, "Ask not what your horseplayer group can do for you, but what you can do to help your horseplayer group change the industry for the betterment of everyone."HANA is now associated with multiple universally appealing objectives for horseplayers, which have struck a responsive chord with many who haven’t committed to any fledgling player organization. Because most of HANA’s membership is not yet directly involved, those who have not yet joined -- despite being responsive to the message – aren’t being left out.

Thus one must be impressed with HANA’s ability to inspire trust and patience in its supporters who, for the most part, have little idea what the leadership is doing until they decide to tell them. Perhaps an awe factor is involved based on the reputation of its celebrity advisory board; few details of whose guidance have been shared beyond the inner circle. … a HUGE thank you to the HANA team that volunteers their own time to represent all of us.Well it will certainly be a huge benefit to professional players, several of whom are on the HANA Advisory Board as well as the NTRA Players Panel.

It’s certainly fair to say that HANA excels in managing perception. Now this is actually a good thing, especially now that racing's marketing efforts have finally come under severe scrutiny, and HANA has proven it is well-qualified to help in that regard. Vic Zast’s last HRI column called the industry out for its ineffectual marketing and information gathering, and HANA immediately piggybacked on it with one of its best blog pieces that immediately drew a terrific response from commenter At The Quarter Pole:

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/09/marketing-summit-you-can-beat-race-but.html (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/09/marketing-summit-you-can-beat-race-but.html)

“Show me the money!” was the signature line from a movie about a football player’s agent. Suppose the mantra of player organizations, turf writers, and bloggers were something like: “Show me the winners. Prove to me that even regular guys can beat this game.”

In my opinion, HANA’s response to Waldrop was too optimistic:

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/are-horseplayers-making-headway.html (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/are-horseplayers-making-headway.html)

It may be possible to get takeout lowered for everybody without a boycott, but not without confrontation of some sort. The NTRA can now sit on reform as it usually does while claiming they’re now listening to their customers. It’s time for HANA to prove its mettle by keeping the NTRA honest, and start working transparently for lowering effective takeout to a common level for all. That would eliminate any doubts that they indeed represent ALL horseplayers and give them a perfect score in perception management.

highnote
10-03-2009, 12:43 AM
[font=Verdana]
The blog piece shows how much goes on “anonymously” outside the board:

It’s time for HANA to prove its mettle by keeping the NTRA honest, and start working transparently for lowering effective takeout to a common level for all. [/color]


Your whitterings about anonymity and transparency are laughable. :lol:

The orange handkerchief is waving and you are pardoned you for all your bull. :D

Indulto
10-03-2009, 01:20 AM
Your whitterings about anonymity and transparency are laughable. :lol:

The orange handkerchief is waving and you are pardoned you for all your bull. :DI don't consider your utterances laughable at all.

I don't ever expect you, personally, to understand the meaning and importance of those two terms, or why that inability is inhibiting membership and support in an on-line enviroment where communicating information is what it's all about..

Whether it's the New York state government leaders selecting the successful VLT bidder, or the HANA board considering its options and weighing its priorities, doing it behind closed doors leaves a bad taste.

Something unexpected just happened that could work in the interests of all horseplayers. Go do the job YOU decided you were fit to perform, and make sure it actually comes to fruition.

"Just Wishin' and Hopin'" won't get it done.:bang:

highnote
10-03-2009, 01:24 AM
It's OK for old Indulto to hide behind a veil of anonymity and opaqueness, but no one else. That just cracks me up. :lol:

Like I said, "the orange handkerchief is waving". You are pardoned.

chickenhead
10-03-2009, 01:42 AM
Go do the job YOU decided you were fit to perform, and make sure it actually comes to fruition.

"Just Wishin' and Hopin'" won't get it done.

Yeah, because I'm sure the people who over the past year have been putting their effort and time on the line trying to make things happen need you to tell them this.

These people are paying money out of their own pockets, flying around meeting with people, spending their nights after they come home from a long day of work in conference calls and meetings.

I'm sure they quite appreciate your lecture. They are putting in time and effort above and beyond whatever call of duty you or I could expect, considering the gratitude and pay they are reimbursed with.

You don't know how hard they're working, cause you don't have access? I just told you -- now you know. One anonymous member to another -- just how you like it.

highnote
10-03-2009, 02:16 AM
why that inability is inhibiting membership and support in an on-line enviroment where communicating information is what it's all about..

Whether it's the New York state government leaders selecting the successful VLT bidder, or the HANA board considering its options and weighing its priorities, doing it behind closed doors leaves a bad taste.



You are on a roll tonight!

Growing membership is more than just communicating. It is also about trust. It is about members having faith that those people willing to roll up their sleeves and do the day to day tasks are honorable and are acting in good faith for the greater good. It is about being a public person who is willing to be held accountable.

When you are ready to take off the mask and stop playing Zorro and come and help we will be glad for the extra hands.

Until then, you have no one to blame but yourself for being seen as a troll who can not be taken seriously. And that's no bull. Pardon the puns. :D

GameTheory
10-03-2009, 03:04 AM
Until then, you have no one to blame but yourself for being seen as a troll who can not be taken seriously. And that's no bull. Pardon the puns. :DI might be able to take him seriously if I could figure out what the hell he's talking about (on any subject). His "style" seems to be to make these ambiguous statements -- the tone seems critical, sarcastic even, but I can never tell what his actual point his, or what alternative he is proposing.

Can't seem to get in sync with his wavelength -- don't think I want to though.

Indulto
10-03-2009, 03:38 AM
Yeah, because I'm sure the people who over the past year have been putting their effort and time on the line trying to make things happen need you to tell them this.While a blanket statement wasn’t intended, anyone is free to see if the shoe fits, and to take offense as they see fit.These people are paying money out of their own pockets, flying around meeting with people, spending their nights after they come home from a long day of work in conference calls and meetings.
That may be, but too few know to what specific ends. Why should one assume the sacrifice is personal and not just investing for subsequent gain in some fashion, if whatever planned objectives are achieved? What makes this group more effectively altruistic than any other supposedly political organization?I'm sure they quite appreciate your lecture. They are putting in time and effort above and beyond whatever call of duty you or I could expect, considering the gratitude and pay they are reimbursed with."They" could also open up the process, and get the approval and funding necessary.You don't know how hard they're working, cause you don't have access? I just told you -- now you know. One anonymous member to another -- just how you like it.I believe the thoughts you just shared are sincere. However, you also know where I stand on a number of issues, and if HANA were actually headed in that direction, they’d find a way to let players with similar concerns know about it.

highnote
10-03-2009, 03:47 AM
I might be able to take him seriously if I could figure out what the hell he's talking about (on any subject). His "style" seems to be to make these ambiguous statements -- the tone seems critical, sarcastic even, but I can never tell what his actual point his, or what alternative he is proposing.

Can't seem to get in sync with his wavelength -- don't think I want to though.


I know what you mean.

chickenhead
10-03-2009, 04:20 AM
That may be, but too few know to what specific ends. Why should one assume the sacrifice is personal and not just investing for subsequent gain in some fashion, if whatever planned objectives are achieved?

Well, the ends are posted on the website quite prominently. And there have been I'd guess tens of thousands of words written by HANA members that have been posted on the blog outlining HANAs ends.

Better Information
Better Access
Better Integrity
Better Pricing

All anyone can do, non-members, members, and board members alike -- is to judge HANA by its words, deeds, and its actions -- to see whether it is working towards those goals or not.

Improved Equibase data, does that work towards one of those ends? I think so. That's not an assumption, and working with Equibase to improve their data is not just evidence, it's a little bit of progress towards those goals.

You can deal with that however you want, including meeting it with statements showing increased levels of skepticism, mistrust, paranoia, and derision. And you can even rationalize that your reaction is HANAs fault. Knock yourself out.

Indulto
10-03-2009, 10:58 PM
Well, the ends are posted on the website quite prominently. And there have been I'd guess tens of thousands of words written by HANA members that have been posted on the blog outlining HANAs ends.

Better Information
Better Access
Better Integrity
Better Pricing

All anyone can do, non-members, members, and board members alike -- is to judge HANA by its words, deeds, and its actions -- to see whether it is working towards those goals or not.All you seem to be offering are generalities and assurances rather than specifics to bolster confidence. A more detailed breakdown for just the pricing category -- including potential objectives that have been identified and what steps might be required to achieve them -- could relieve the concerns of some for whom ignorance is not bliss. I doubt that if our roles were reversed you would be any more comfortable with HANA’s need-to-know practices.Improved Equibase data, does that work towards one of those ends? I think so. That's not an assumption, and working with Equibase to improve their data is not just evidence, it's a little bit of progress towards those goals.I’d probably agree if I also knew what else HANA was trying to achieve in that category, and I was also confident that working with Equibase wouldn’t prevent HANA from reaching its other objectives in that area, or in working with other data suppliers such as Trackus or the next innovator in racing data collection.

Perhaps you could tell me if HANA is also pursuing a reduction in data costs for its membership? If so, would any such reduction benefit all players, or only those who purchase it in machine-readable form in large quantities?You can deal with that however you want, including meeting it with statements showing increased levels of skepticism, mistrust, paranoia, and derision. And you can even rationalize that your reaction is HANAs fault. Knock yourself out.Thanks for your permission. Skepticism and mistrust have served me well in the past, and one is not paranoid if in fact there is something to fear. Derision only works with worthy subjects. I’ll leave any rationalizing of my reaction to you since you seem to have more experience with the concept.

You know, there really is a disconnect between HANA’s demand for openness from its membership and its resistance to operating openly. Trust is not a one-way street.

GameTheory
10-03-2009, 11:09 PM
[font=Verdana]All you seem to be offering are generalities and assurances rather than specifics to bolster confidence...But why exactly are you, Indulto, relevant? Why should anyone even read what you write? For all we know you are not even a horseplayer and only seek to waste people's time. Who do you represent? Who are these "those who [this or that]" you are always referring to? If you have an agenda that differs from HANA, go start your own organization. If you seek instead to tell HANA what its business ought to be, at least do the bare minimum that common courtesy demands and friggin' introduce yourself. Otherwise, the most sensible thing to do is to completely ignore you. If you like to pretend you don't exist, why shouldn't we?

Indulto
10-04-2009, 01:12 AM
I might be able to take him seriously if I could figure out what the hell he's talking about (on any subject). His "style" seems to be to make these ambiguous statements -- the tone seems critical, sarcastic even, but I can never tell what his actual point his, or what alternative he is proposing.

Can't seem to get in sync with his wavelength -- don't think I want to though.But why exactly are you, Indulto, relevant? Why should anyone even read what you write? For all we know you are not even a horseplayer and only seek to waste people's time. Who do you represent? Who are these "those who [this or that]" you are always referring to? If you have an agenda that differs from HANA, go start your own organization. If you seek instead to tell HANA what its business ought to be, at least do the bare minimum that common courtesy demands and friggin' introduce yourself. Otherwise, the most sensible thing to do is to completely ignore you. If you like to pretend you don't exist, why shouldn't we?Apparently you are taking me seriously after all, and I guess you must be the new designated hitter.

I'd be very surprised if there's a single poster on this board who truly believes that I'm not a horseplayer. I'm not a celebrity whose name you'd recognize so I still wouldn't have any more influence if I satisfied your curiosity, and I doubt any courtesy would be returned.

I suspect you would ignore my posts if there weren’t some measure of truth and/or logic to them, so apparently you must now be able to “figure out what I’m talking about.” You certainly seem comfortable with criticism and sarcasm in your own arsenal.

There is really no point in starting another organization while HANA is perceived as representing the recreational/casual player. I'm only as relevant as HANA's inability or unwillingness to demonstrate such representation

GameTheory
10-04-2009, 02:25 AM
I'd be very surprised if there's a single poster on this board who truly believes that I'm not a horseplayer. I'm beginning to doubt it. You seem to have an anti-horseplayer agenda. Can't figure out what you are FOR, or is it just anti-everything? What ideas are you bringing to the table? Just vague negativity -- what is the point?

I'm not a celebrity whose name you'd recognize so I still wouldn't have any more influence if I satisfied your curiosity, and I doubt any courtesy would be returned.You already know who I am -- you've sent mail to my house. No return address, of course.

I suspect you would ignore my posts if there weren’t some measure of truth and/or logic to them, so apparently you must now be able to “figure out what I’m talking about.” You certainly seem comfortable with criticism and sarcasm in your own arsenal.Sorry, actually I can't. I gather you have some problem, but no I can't really tell what it is or what your point is or what alternative you would like to see. Just lots of vague questions, "Who are you really representing?" etc

There is really no point in starting another organization while HANA is perceived as representing the recreational/casual player. "Is perceiving as representing"? What does that mean? What are you talking about?

I'm only as relevant as HANA's inability or unwillingness to demonstrate such representation Again... huh? Where are you going with this? WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HAPPEN? SPECIFICALLY? And what are the reasons/justifications that your way, whatever it is, is the correct one? DO YOU ACTUALLY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY?

You remind me of the Monty Python sketch where a guy pays for an argument and all he gets is mindless contradiction. Anyway, I'll take my own advice and ignore you now. You're not going to answer my questions anyway, not really, so let's just call them rhetorical.

Indulto
10-04-2009, 04:00 AM
... You already know who I am -- you've sent mail to my house. No return address, of course. ..Boy, you really had me going there for a while, but I finally remembered. It was to help reimburse you for going out of pocket and registering a domain name when you were the only person in the war room who knew about such things. One of those critical moments in getting the group off the ground. I guess you're just as entitled as SJ to call yourself the father of HANA. That was indeed a happier time and I'm sorry I can't return that courtesy right now.

George Sands
10-04-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm beginning to doubt it. You seem to have an anti-horseplayer agenda. Can't figure out what you are FOR, or is it just anti-everything? What ideas are you bringing to the table? Just vague negativity -- what is the point?

Indulto seems to have an anti-horseplayer agenda? I disagree with this respectfully but completely. Indulto is absolutely not anti-horseplayer. What he is doing is offering a "Who stands up for the little guy?" critique of HANA. And I think one of the many reasons it doesn't go down well with HANA is that HANA sees ITSELF as standing up for the little guy. So what Indulto is doing has aspects of a flanking maneuver, which can be frustrating to deal with, especially when one is in a position of responsibility and thus has many pragmatic concerns.

Indulto's philosophy is classic populism. You can see this when he discusses rebates. You can see this when he discusses anonymity. You can see this when he discusses HANA's leadership style. You can see this across the board. Indeed, to my mind, Indulto's philosophy is more consistent and more coherent than HANA's philosophy. This doesn't mean that I always agree with Indulto's philosophy. I don't. I think he's dead wrong on rebates and some other things (and dead right about anonymity). But he is certainly not anti-horseplayer.

Indulto, if you're reading, I have a suggestion:

Your writing style? It contradicts your philosophy. It does not go with populism. It is much too stilted. It gives me the impression that you are more interested in prolonging discussions than in making your points and convincing people you are right. If they want to be understood, populists need to write like populists.

jonnielu
10-04-2009, 01:28 PM
Indulto seems to have an anti-horseplayer agenda? I disagree with this respectfully but completely. Indulto is absolutely not anti-horseplayer. What he is doing is offering a "Who stands up for the little guy?" critique of HANA. And I think one of the many reasons it doesn't go down well with HANA is that HANA sees ITSELF as standing up for the little guy. So what Indulto is doing has aspects of a flanking maneuver, which can be frustrating to deal with, especially when one is in a position of responsibility and thus has many pragmatic concerns.

Indulto's philosophy is classic populism. You can see this when he discusses rebates. You can see this when he discusses anonymity. You can see this when he discusses HANA's leadership style. You can see this across the board. Indeed, to my mind, Indulto's philosophy is more consistent and more coherent than HANA's philosophy. This doesn't mean that I always agree with Indulto's philosophy. I don't. I think he's dead wrong on rebates and some other things (and dead right about anonymity). But he is certainly not anti-horseplayer.

Indulto, if you're reading, I have a suggestion:

Your writing style? It contradicts your philosophy. It does not go with populism. It is much too stilted. It gives me the impression that you are more interested in prolonging discussions than in making your points and convincing people you are right. If they want to be understood, populists need to write like populists.

HANA wants an image of standing up for the little guy, without actually being an example to the little guy of how to stand up. And, hopefully, the little guy doesn't notice how fast they sold out while they build a good customer list.

jdl

highnote
10-04-2009, 02:56 PM
you can please some of the people all of the time.

you can please all of the people some of the time.

you can not please all of the people all of the time (GOD does not even do that).

and

there are some people you can never please.

GameTheory
10-04-2009, 03:05 PM
And of course ALL activist and political groups, including HANA some day if it lasts that long, are eventually taken over by extremists. This is just the way group dynamics work. The most "committed", which invariably means the most extreme, are always the hardest workers for their cause and end up in the leadership positions. Moderates are naturally pushed aside, and eventually quit. And then even after they achieve what they set out to do, they keep going, usually becoming shrill and irrelevant; but sometimes because of the power and influence they've amassed, they become part of the problem itself. (Think about political parties, unions, NAACP-type groups, etc.)

Then you need a new group. You'll never find perfection, not in this world.

chickenhead
10-04-2009, 03:24 PM
All you seem to be offering are generalities and assurances rather than specifics to bolster confidence. A more detailed breakdown for just the pricing category -- including potential objectives that have been identified and what steps might be required to achieve them -- could relieve the concerns of some for whom ignorance is not bliss.

You converse with the HANA board quite a bit on this message board, you read the blog -- I'm not sure what else you want to know? HANA has talked about wanting to work with tracks to lower takeout on wagers, either by having takeout being reduced on existing bets, or by having new lower takeout bets introduced, and about making rebates more accessible, by lobbying to legalize them where they are not legal, and by lobbying to reduce minimum volumes where they are. Jeff has talked about this on this very forum, in threads you've responded to. Where is the mystery? Where is the opacity?

Now, there may be some opacity as to how HANA plans on achieving those things, or whether HANA can achieve those things, but that's a different discussion, and quite possibly, there just really isn't that much to tell. Having a tight coherent presentation and repeatedly making the case to anyone who will listen is possibly all HANA can do right now to effect any of these things.

But personally I don't see this huge difficulty in understanding what HANA is for in terms of pricing.

A more fundamental concern of mine, is if and when HANA does convince someone to do some experimentation on pricing -- are we as horseplayers ready willing and able to guarantee it is a rousing success. That is where the rubber hits the road.

DeanT
10-04-2009, 03:33 PM
The day the HANA Baltimore chapter gets caught on video giving tips to stick it to the IRS, I am out .....

:)

In all seriousness, there are a couple groups, depending on what people are focused on. Mike at thorofan.com is building a base on pure fan-centric issues. They have some sponsorship and are trying to work with racing to make things better for the fan, and to cultivate a brand new fan base. Personally, I think that is wonderful.

Maybe there will come a day where thorofan has 20,000 members and some of those members will become bettors of the sport. I equally hope that at that time, when those 20,000 new fans want to play racing, HANA has accomplished some things that can help them be a fan for the long term - they can get a good on track rewards program and be treated well as customers to keep them racing fans and bettors; if they choose they could get a good online account that they can bet in no matter what state they live in, they will be betting the sport with better takeout to keep them engaged and having a little more fun while they make a bit more money, they can get access to better information at an affordable price, or no price at all; maybe even they will be betting it with a betting exchange, or something new like that; and so on.

That's what I hope, because I think that grows racing. Getting them into the door is important, but keeping them inside the stadium of betting is equally, if not more so, important.

DeanT
10-04-2009, 03:38 PM
HANA has talked about wanting to work with tracks to lower takeout on wagers, either by having takeout being reduced on existing bets, or by having new lower takeout bets introduced, and about making rebates more accessible, by lobbying to legalize them where they are not legal, and by lobbying to reduce minimum volumes where they are.

Wow, you can't make it any more plain than that. Great synopsis Chick! :ThmbUp:

GameTheory
10-04-2009, 03:49 PM
A more fundamental concern of mine, is if and when HANA does convince someone to do some experimentation on pricing -- are we as horseplayers ready willing and able to guarantee it is a rousing success. That is where the rubber hits the road.Which is a tough one. I think it being a rousing success is practically guaranteed -- it will be built into the structure. But it won't be an INSTANT success. It has to be given time to work. Like when Laurel tried 10% takeout, but only for a short time period. That's great, I'll bet those pools, but those types of experiments aren't going to generate the new players that an overall and permanent takeout reduction would. The fact is that somebody is going to be taking a short-term hit if (actual) takeout is reduced. Which makes the case even more for using rebates as a transitional tool -- give the rebate, grow the handle, and then switch the rebate to actual lower takeout. That last step won't change the effective takeout for the player as he has already been getting it from the rebate. You'll never convince the tracks, let alone state governments, to lower takeout on theory. You've got to prove it first, and the only way to do that currently is with rebates.

What would be an instant and rousing success is exchange betting, as long as the commission rates were low. But they've got to protect their current structure, so that's tough as well...

DeanT
10-04-2009, 04:10 PM
Good post GT.

What we find in racing with takeout is that we are walking into a building with five doors. Doors one and two are locked with an army guarding them. Doors three and four are locked, but we might be able to knock to get in, and door 5 is open a crack.

Door one and two are guarded by states and horseman groups who need to be convinced to move the army from the door. Doors three and four are in jurisdictions who give pushback on pretty much everything regarding pricing, but they tend to at least listen and might be persuaded one day. Door five is the ADW's who are player centric with rebates who we hope to make more mainstream (ie lowering minimums and making them more available to all players), along with a track or two who are listening to us for lower takeout bets and on track rewards programs.

As a fledgling group we could knock our heads against the first few doors, but all we will get is a sore head. Knocking and trying to go through the last couple of doors, and then having empirical data to back us up should we succeed to get some price breaks, might help us get through the other doors later.

OK, I am sure you are now happy to hear that I am all out of door analogies :)

chickenhead
10-04-2009, 04:58 PM
What he is doing is offering a "Who stands up for the little guy?" critique of HANA.
And I think one of the many reasons it doesn't go down well with HANA is that HANA sees ITSELF as standing up for the little guy. So what Indulto is doing has aspects of a flanking maneuver, which can be frustrating to deal with, especially when one is in a position of responsibility and thus has many pragmatic concerns..

I'm not sure, and I think this might be true of others -- of what exactly are the dividing lines between things that are good for the little guy, and things that are good for everyone else -- or more distinctly, if to be for the little guy you have to be specifically for things that are ONLY good for the little guy, what are those things, exactly? I'm not even sure what the definition of the little guy is -- who is our representative little guy? What are his defining characteristics? And where is the dividing line between the little guy and, whatever is bigger? Assuming it must be something other than amount bet if there is some different set of needs that need to be met, what are the defining differences?

HANA is not focused on fans, and not focused on the sporting aspects of things, that doesn't mean HANA is not made up of fans and people who enjoy the sport, or that focusing on those things isn't important -- it's just that that a limited focus is deemed by HANA to be necessary, and that focus is on bettors. I think it's largely those distinctions that get all blurred, as many of the things people might mean about little guys is not so much about bettors, but more about fans.

I can think of two things that people generally think about as being little bettors vs. big bettors -- rebates and (suspected) more direct tote access. I'm not against rebates, my opinion is that they are a necessary evil right now. I am against any exclusive group having access to the makeup of any exotic pools, I'm not sure whether that happens or not, but I'm certainly against it. I guess HANA could clarify their opinion on that -- I don't know that they ever have.

But just to table those two issues -- what else are we talking about?

DeanT
10-04-2009, 05:14 PM
I have no idea with small stuff and big stuff.

We just look for some little crack that we can walk through that will make the game better - where there is a chance to succeed. The equibase thing is small sure, but a central depository for changes that are accurate, to me is something for everyone. Mobile phone use is for small players, big players and old players and young players. Now if you are at a simo centre you can click a button on your phone and get accurate changes. If you are betting $100 to win, or $2 to win, you deserve accurate, real time changes via a standard feed.

We got the idea for working with equibase not from a closed-door meeting, we got it like we get most things - from reading thread after thread after thread at Pace and elsewhere about changes. In fact, the post I liked on one thread was from Ranchwest where he said "I know this will never come about, but how about one official change repository for all tracks?" I dont know if he bets $10k a decade or $10k a day and dont care: Everyone should be able to use this for the betterment of their play, or being a fan.

We would like (again this is from paceadvantage threads, letters to the editor and horseplayer magazine articles and so on) to get uniform payout standards done. No more going to a track you have not been, or looking at a simo screen or on the web should we see $1 ex payout probables and $2 ones, and whatever, depending on the track. I dont care if the people who suggested they want to see uniform standards bet $10 or $10,000, it is a good idea for everyone and the business of horse racing.

The same with uniform rules and regulations.

The same with uniform penalties across jurisdictions.

The same with pool integrity. A guy who bets and hits a $1 ex that pays $900, which might be their best score of the year has just as much right to having pool integrity, than someone who bet a $10 ex.

Charlie Davis just expressed interest to work on things and joined the board, maybe as someone that was outside the board he can describe things better. But as a rule we just look for things we might be able to accomplish that horseplayers have complained about for years, based on feedback from the powers that be and players, while we do our due diligence to get them done. That is the general strategy.

andymays
10-04-2009, 05:24 PM
To get more "little guys" on board you need to have some focus on regional issues. It could be something as simple as a suspicious ride at Golden Gate or it could be a ADW (TVG earlier in the year) not paying for whatever reason. Both issues were positively influenced by individuals on this very board and changes were made. Even if the issue only affects one Horseplayer it's important that the "little guys" feel like HANA cares about the small stuff. More people will get on board if HANA tweaks its approach.


Golden Gate thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60564&highlight=golden+gate

TVG thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56868




You would need regional HANA representatives to address these types of issues and protocols for addressing them.

andymays
10-04-2009, 05:35 PM
To get more "little guys" on board you need to have some focus on regional issues. It could be something as simple as a suspicious ride at Golden Gate or it could be a ADW (TVG earlier in the year) not paying for whatever reason. Both issues were positively influenced by individuals on this very board and changes were made. Even if the issue only affects one Horseplayer it's important that the "little guys" feel like HANA cares about the small stuff. More people will get on board if HANA tweaks its approach.


Golden Gate thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60564&highlight=golden+gate

TVG thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56868




You would need regional HANA representatives to address these types of issues and protocols for addressing them.


This was the other part of the TVG thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56909

highnote
10-04-2009, 05:36 PM
To get more "little guys" on board you need to have some focus on regional issues.

You would need regional HANA representatives to address these types of issues and protocols for addressing them.


What is your region? And are you willing to be a regional rep?

Maybe Indulto can take the SoCal region?

DeanT
10-04-2009, 05:39 PM
That goes perfectly back to Rapid's post earlier on this thread Andy, and we have talked about it already. It takes programming for us to get that done, and ideally we really want to have chapters in each area with members in charge of local issues.

Doing it right, and in a way that it will work is the stumbling block to these issues. And yes, time is a problem that has been readily admitted. For every horseplayer issue we get feedback on, it has to be discussed with the party, then brought up to whomever the people who can fix it via calls or emails. I hate to sound like a broken record on this, but we all have jobs and the plate is really full right now.

We do get emails from specific players on issues, and we do look into them when we can. But as an example, I looked into one awhile ago myself and it took about twenty emails. I think I spent about 20 hours on it. if you multiply that by 40 members that want us to look into something, it takes 800 hours. 80 issues are 1600 hours. We dont have that kind of time right now until we find some way to do it better. But yes, it is on the list. As we grow and get more and more people offering help, and we have some area set up to handle things, we should be able to do this better.

PS: Most individual issues are tried to work on in the aggregate. For example, Jeff looked into the past posting thing at PENN awhile ago. he spent several hours on the individual issue, but we brought it mainstream with meetings and a general strategy on pool integrity. We have spent many hours on the broad issue, hoping to fix it, so the micro issue does not happen again.

andymays
10-04-2009, 05:47 PM
That goes perfectly back to Rapid's post earlier on this thread Andy, and we have talked about it already. It takes programming for us to get that done, and ideally we really want to have chapters in each area with members in charge of local issues.

Doing it right, and in a way that it will work is the stumbling block to these issues. And yes, time is a problem that has been readily admitted. For every horseplayer issue we get feedback on, it has to be discussed with the party, then brought up to whomever the people who can fix it via calls or emails. I hate to sound like a broken record on this, but we all have jobs and the plate is really full right now.

We do get emails from specific players on issues, and we do look into them when we can. But as an example, I looked into one awhile ago myself and it took about twenty emails. I think I spent about 20 hours on it. if you multiply that by 40 members that want us to look into something, it takes 800 hours. 80 issues are 1600 hours. We dont have that kind of time right now until we find some way to do it better. But yes, it is on the list. As we grow and get more and more people offering help, and we have some area set up to handle things, we should be able to do this better.


Most issues require action within 24 hours of the incident. If you wait nothing gets done. Maybe it takes a flash poll and approval by a couple of board members for a regional HANA action. Then a press release explaining the issue to members of the media.

This is where HANA is not connecting. All it takes is 20 or 30 members to coordinate emails and phone calls to get something addressed. Whether the issue gets resolved or not from there is another thing but at least people see HANA taking action. You can't win a fight if you never get in a fight (not that HANA never gets in a fight but you know what I mean regarding the examples I posted above).

andymays
10-04-2009, 05:49 PM
What is your region? And are you willing to be a regional rep?

Maybe Indulto can take the SoCal region?



I'm in Southern California and I hate synthetic surfaces. Did I mention that I hate synthetic surfaces? ;)

DeanT
10-04-2009, 05:53 PM
Most issues require action within 24 hours of the incident. If you wait nothing gets done. Maybe it takes a flash poll and approval by a couple of board members for a regional HANA action.

This is where HANA is not connecting. All it takes is 20 or 30 members to coordinate emails and phone calls to get something addressed. Whether the issue gets resolved or not from there is another thing but at least people see HANA taking action. You can't win a fight if you never get in a fight (not that HANA never gets in a fight but you know what I mean regarding the examples I posted above).

I agree as I said above.

But having the infrastructure set up to do that is the problem, which sometime we hope to have tackled.

If you look at the Arizona meetings we got only a few members from all of AZ to come, or email that they would help. Thanks a ton to them, but there were only a few. Getting 20 or 30 people in each region, energized to roll on fixing issues, is something that takes time, membership and organization. That is what we are trying to do.

BTW, many of the issues for more ideas on this, and getting more feedback from folks who wish to help, exactly as you have noted, will be a big part of the first ever member survey, which is due to be out soon.

andymays
10-04-2009, 05:55 PM
I agree as I said above.

But having the infrastructure set up to do that is the problem, which sometime we hope to have tackled.

If you look at the Arizona meetings we got only a few members from all of AZ to come, or email that they would help. Thanks a ton to them, but there were only a few. Getting 20 or 30 people in each region, energized to roll on fixing issues, is something that takes time, membership and organization. That is what we are trying to do.

BTW, many of the issues for more ideas on this, and getting more feedback from folks who wish to help, exactly as you have noted, will be a big part of the first ever member survey, which is due to be out soon.


The Golden Gate issue and the TVG issue listed above were handled informally by a few people on this board. This board is the infrastructure! When people who are not yet members see HANA involved in a regional issue they are more likely to join.

DeanT
10-04-2009, 06:03 PM
I know Andy. But my point is that there are literally hundreds of threads on issues like that here at Pace in a year. That one worked out well, but what about the dozens that are there that do not. Do you have any idea how much time that would take?

If someone emails we have to contact the board, or regional members. Then we have to email someone, decide if it is something worth looking into. Then if we do not look into it we have to call or email a member to tell him his issue is not an issue at all. We have to do this on each and every issue, because their opinion matters. HANA then becomes a customer service rep for the horse racing industry, with five or six people doing the work of hundreds.

We are not there yet, that is all I am saying. We hope to be someday with members doing the regional work, but it has to be set up right for it to work, with a big membership with good engagement numbers. There is nothing else I can tell you about that.

andymays
10-04-2009, 06:10 PM
I know Andy. But my point is that there are literally hundreds of threads on issues like that here at Pace in a year. That one worked out well, but what about the dozens that are there that do not. Do you have any idea how much time that would take?

If someone emails we have to contact the board, or regional members. Then we have to email someone, decide if it is something worth looking into. Then if we do not look into it we have to call or email a member to tell him his issue is not an issue at all. We have to do this on each and every issue, because their opinion matters. HANA then becomes a customer service rep for the horse racing industry, with five or six people doing the work of hundreds.

We are not there yet, that is all I am saying. We hope to be someday with members doing the regional work, but it has to be set up right for it to work. There is nothing else I can tell you about that.


All that you (any member) have to do is start a thread with a poll. Then you decide whether or not it's worth addressing. Then you list the emails and phone numbers of racing officials and reporters in the region for members to contact. Then HANA issues a press release to the regional reporters and racing officials as well.

You can act on any issue in a relatively short period of time.

chickenhead
10-04-2009, 06:12 PM
Perhaps you could tell me if HANA is also pursuing a reduction in data costs for its membership?

I have no idea, but I doubt it and would strongly advise against it. It might seem like a no brainer for HANA to pursue special deals for its membership, but its not. There are three problems that would immediately come up:

1.) It would bring up serious questions about HANAs independence, i.e. the appearance of a "sponsored" entity. (concern is the same reason why HANA has no advertising on its pages)

2.) If HANA got so much as a free cup of coffee for its members, non-members would slam it for being exclusive and not caring about non-members (no matter how low the barriers to joining HANA are).

3.) It's would be non-trivial to actually implement whatever kind of verification would be required, privacy concerns, etc.

If HANA wanted to really institute special deals for its members (something more significant than something revolving around a HANA day at the races, for example), it would be much smarter to look at getting them from participants they aren't trying to lobby, i.e. maybe special deals from third party SW mfgs or the like.

Now, reducing data costs for everyone -- thats another story, one that HANA has has been vocal about. I was thinking about maybe doing a blog post about historical data, they have made historical pdf charts available, which is nice, I'd like them to extend that to other historical things, and I think it makes economic sense for them to do so.

DeanT
10-04-2009, 06:28 PM
All that you (any member) have to do is start a thread with a poll. Then you decide whether or not it's worth addressing. Then you list the emails and phone numbers of racing officials and reporters in the region for members to contact. Then HANA issues a press release to the regional reporters and racing officials as well.

You can act on any issue in a relatively short period of time.

Seems like an interesting idea.

Thanks for that. If you have some time to type up what would need to be done and how to set that up properly, shoot it to me at the horseplayer email can ya? I assume we'd need to build an email database of every area, have someone to post polls, have polling and so on done here at Pace on this thread and so on.

Anyhow, if you have ideas, jot them down and we can make it an agenda item.

D

andymays
10-04-2009, 07:00 PM
Seems like an interesting idea.

Thanks for that. If you have some time to type up what would need to be done and how to set that up properly, shoot it to me at the horseplayer email can ya? I assume we'd need to build an email database of every area, have someone to post polls, have polling and so on done here at Pace on this thread and so on.

Anyhow, if you have ideas, jot them down and we can make it an agenda item.

D


Will do! :ThmbUp:

Charli125
10-04-2009, 08:09 PM
Charlie Davis just expressed interest to work on things and joined the board, maybe as someone that was outside the board he can describe things better. But as a rule we just look for things we might be able to accomplish that horseplayers have complained about for years, based on feedback from the powers that be and players, while we do our due diligence to get them done. That is the general strategy.

The title of this thread is a bit misleading in my opinion. One of the things I noticed right away after joining the board is that there are a lot of things in the works that I didn't have a clue about. For various reasons we're not at liberty to share everything(and this is necessary to get things done), but there is a lot more going on than people think.

For example, the Equibase thing. Noone was aware that this was in the works until it was announced. The initial talks were at the Keeneland Spring meet, HANA has been working on it constantly since then, yet it wasn't completed and announced until last week.

I understand the frustrations that some have expressed, and it does seem to move very slow sometimes, but at the end of the day there is a lot going on. I think a little patience and trust is in order here.

Indulto
10-06-2009, 12:56 AM
Indulto seems to have an anti-horseplayer agenda? I disagree with this respectfully but completely. Indulto is absolutely not anti-horseplayer. What he is doing is offering a "Who stands up for the little guy?" critique of HANA. And I think one of the many reasons it doesn't go down well with HANA is that HANA sees ITSELF as standing up for the little guy. So what Indulto is doing has aspects of a flanking maneuver, which can be frustrating to deal with, especially when one is in a position of responsibility and thus has many pragmatic concerns.

Indulto's philosophy is classic populism. You can see this when he discusses rebates. You can see this when he discusses anonymity. You can see this when he discusses HANA's leadership style. You can see this across the board. Indeed, to my mind, Indulto's philosophy is more consistent and more coherent than HANA's philosophy. This doesn't mean that I always agree with Indulto's philosophy. I don't. I think he's dead wrong on rebates and some other things (and dead right about anonymity). But he is certainly not anti-horseplayer.

Indulto, if you're reading, I have a suggestion:

Your writing style? It contradicts your philosophy. It does not go with populism. It is much too stilted. It gives me the impression that you are more interested in prolonging discussions than in making your points and convincing people you are right. If they want to be understood, populists need to write like populists.As usual, GS, you give with one hand and take with the other. Apparently you approve of my “populism,” but not my “poems,” and you like rebates, but not “real names.” And, by George, that was quite a calming effect you had on the HANA crew. You may have even averted a lynching.

Given your impressive interpretive powers, if you have time, please translate GT’s post #56 for me. Shrill and “committed?” Hmmmmm. By his definition, is it possible some extremists are already in control at HANA?

Chick’s response to you was a good beginning to a discussion of who the recreational bettor is, to what extent they currently make up HANA membership, what portion of the horseplaying population they represent, and how much handle they can be expected to contribute when takeout is lowered.

So far, no-one has challenged your advocacy of anonymity. I’m sure there is interest, but I suspect there is a desire to let sleeping dogs lie. Perhaps you could treat us to a treatise in defense of anonymity to stimulate discussion in that area as well.

Indulto
10-06-2009, 03:17 AM
I'm not sure, and I think this might be true of others -- of what exactly are the dividing lines between things that are good for the little guy, and things that are good for everyone else -- or more distinctly, if to be for the little guy you have to be specifically for things that are ONLY good for the little guy, what are those things, exactly? I'm not even sure what the definition of the little guy is -- who is our representative little guy? What are his defining characteristics? And where is the dividing line between the little guy and, whatever is bigger? Assuming it must be something other than amount bet if there is some different set of needs that need to be met, what are the defining differences?Chick,
I think we are more likely concerned with what is bad for the small bettor even if it is good for everyone else; and what is only good for the big bettor -- particularly when it negatively impacts the small bettor. Perhaps you could give some examples of issues of that fit your conjecture.HANA is not focused on fans, and not focused on the sporting aspects of things, that doesn't mean HANA is not made up of fans and people who enjoy the sport, or that focusing on those things isn't important -- it's just that that a limited focus is deemed by HANA to be necessary, and that focus is on bettors. I think it's largely those distinctions that get all blurred, as many of the things people might mean about little guys is not so much about bettors, but more about fans.From the start, HANA has been about bettors and not about fan’s who don’t bet, so maybe we should look at the types of bettor that characterize or define “the little guy.” Here’s my initial take:

…………………………………………………..|=====================|

…..PROFESSIONAL BETTORS…….|….NON-PROFESSIONAL BETTORS|

………………………………………..WHALE|S…………………………………………………..|

…………………………….………...SERIOU|S BETTORS……………………………….…|

…......................................…….|.…..….R ECREATIONAL BETTORS|
…………………………….………..............|………………..……CASUAL BETTORS|

……………………………………………………..|====================|

………………………………………………………………….Little Guys

What are the true overlaps and what other terms might apply? Once that's resolved, maybe the next step is to find out what % of total horseplayers and what % of handle each category represents, as well as what % of whales, serious bettors, recreational bettors, and casual bettors are professional as opposed to nnon-professional.I can think of two things that people generally think about as being little bettors vs. big bettors -- rebates and (suspected) more direct tote access. I'm not against rebates, my opinion is that they are a necessary evil right now. I am against any exclusive group having access to the makeup of any exotic pools, I'm not sure whether that happens or not, but I'm certainly against it. I guess HANA could clarify their opinion on that -- I don't know that they ever have.

But just to table those two issues -- what else are we talking about?Could you please explain specifically what you mean by exclusive group access to the makeup of an exotic pool?

Indulto
10-06-2009, 12:31 PM
Perhaps this is clearer. Remember, I'm basically still a DOS guy. ;)



…………………………………………………..|=====================|

…..PROFESSIONAL BETTORS…….|N/ON-PROFESSIONAL BETTORS..|

………………………………………..WHALE|S/………………………………………………..|

…………………………….………...SERIOU|S/ BETTORS…….…….……………….…|

…......................................…….|./...….RECREATIONAL BETTORS|
…………………………….………..............|./……………..……CASUAL BETTORS|

……………………………………………………..|=/===================|

……………………………………………………….…/…….Little Guys

pjleft
10-06-2009, 10:26 PM
Who gets the best and lowest tackout.? The whales who bet offshore. Takeout obviously matters. How much handle is lost everyday to operators who are willing to take a little less of a bigger pie while the horse owners and track operators fight over a shrinking pie?

There is a sense of entitlement among owners and operators that the bettor should be happy to support their "hobby". Pay to park, pay to get in, pay for the program, pay for lousy food and overpriced drinks and then pay a huge takeout without even getting the courtesy of the breakage.

The people who run this sport strangle the player and then, like Capt. Renault, are "shocked, shocked" to learn that the industry is dying.

lamboguy
10-06-2009, 10:37 PM
Who gets the best and lowest tackout.? The whales who bet offshore. Takeout obviously matters. How much handle is lost everyday to operators who are willing to take a little less of a bigger pie while the horse owners and track operators fight over a shrinking pie?

There is a sense of entitlement among owners and operators that the bettor should be happy to support their "hobby". Pay to park, pay to get in, pay for the program, pay for lousy food and overpriced drinks and then pay a huge takeout without even getting the courtesy of the breakage.

The people who run this sport strangle the player and then, like Capt. Renault, are "shocked, shocked" to learn that the industry is dying.the two main components of the raicing game are the bettors and owners, both get screwed.

nothing changes until you get rid of the guys that got the paychecks.

highnote
10-06-2009, 10:37 PM
Who gets the best and lowest tackout.? The whales who bet offshore. Takeout obviously matters. How much handle is lost everyday to operators who are willing to take a little less of a bigger pie while the horse owners and track operators fight over a shrinking pie?

It's important to define what is meant by "offshore". Not all whales bet offshore. Not all offshore adw's have contracts with North American racetracks that allow the offshore adw's to comingle with the N.A. betting pools.

Indulto
10-07-2009, 01:39 PM
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/10/06/crisis-danger-and-opportunity-by-stacy-v-bearse.aspx (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/10/06/crisis-danger-and-opportunity-by-stacy-v-bearse.aspx)
Crisis, Danger, and Opportunity
By Stacy V. Bearse 06 Oct 2009… Alex Waldrop, president and CEO of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, recently told me there are some 7.4-million core racing fans in the United States. …That suggests the average individual annual handle is approximately $2,000.00. Perhaps the NTRA can already profile a representative of each category and the "little guy" as well.

twindouble
10-07-2009, 04:57 PM
Takeout and churning money has been the main stay of all tracks. Lower takeout doesn't mean the majority players will move from red to black but they will churn more money. Can a player play into high takeout pools and make money, of course they can. The lowering of takeout will benefit the tracks a lot more than it will the average players. That don't mean some won't benefit, especially those that already get outrageous rebates on what the churn. They get the rebates win or lose, whereas we only benefit with lower takeout when we win. Changing that should be a priority of HANA. I always viewed pari-mutual wagering as a "level playing field" until rebates came about. No one can convince me rebates isn't an unfair practice. Don't matter to me how much money they churn.


Can someone here explain to me why they think betting exchanges here in America will boost handle when pari-mutual wagering as we've known it has treated us so well for so long. The bookies abroad never left the game, they have been and still are an historical fixture. Sure it works there but I question if it will here. I would think the whole idea would be foreign to most players. Do you really think offering something that's more complex when it comes to betting, players will jump on the bandwagon? Or is it that simple?

the_fat_man
10-07-2009, 05:04 PM
The lowering of takeout will benefit the tracks a lot more than it will the average players. That don't mean some won't benefit, especially those that already get outrageous rebates on what the churn. They get the rebates win or lose, whereas we only benefit with lower takeout when we win. Changing that should be a priority of HANA. I always viewed pari-mutual wagering as a "level playing field" until rebates came about. No one can convince me rebates isn't an unfair practice. Don't matter to me how much money they churn.

If it were only that WHALES get the benefit of rebates it wouldn't bother me that much. I could shake this off, the way I do photo beats, poor rides, and terrible decisions by the stewards. But I think it goes BEYOND having a poor opinion and getting paid for it. I'm still not convinced that the only significant perk that whales get is REBATES. I strongly believe that whales get PAST POSTING privileges at some tracks. AP and MTH would be 2 prime examples. This goes quite a bit beyond what's acceptable. I can win against poor opinions but when I have longshots getting hit heavy AFTER they get a clear lead, for example, it gets a lot harder to stay ahead.

I know, people are going to tell me it's not late betting, just all the money coming into the pools late. I don't buy it.

InsideThePylons-MW
10-07-2009, 05:11 PM
I strongly believe that whales get PAST POSTING privileges at some tracks. AP and MTH would be 2 prime examples. This goes quite a bit beyond what's acceptable. I can win against poor opinions but when I have longshots getting hit heavy AFTER they get a clear lead, for example, it gets a lot harder to stay ahead.

I know, people are going to tell me it's not late betting, just all the money coming into the pools late. I don't buy it.

Exactly right.

At the start of each week, a few track executives sit down and see the whale result report card for the previous week. If they see that some of them struggled that week, they decide to give past posting privileges to the ones hurt the most and only for one week in duration just to get them well again so they can churn more money.

Not many people know about this as they try to keep it quiet.

the_fat_man
10-07-2009, 05:17 PM
Exactly right.

At the start of each week, a few track executives sit down and see the whale result report card for the previous week. If they see that some of them struggled that week, they decide to give past posting privileges to the ones hurt the most and only for one week in duration just to get them well again so they can churn more money.

Not many people know about this as they try to keep it quiet.

Ummmm

It's not about struggling but enticing people to continue betting big money into your pools. One way is to give them back money, whether they win or lose. But, you've already made them feel 'special' by rebating them. Not like letting them bet a few seconds after the race starts is a big thing? Right?

We all know all things in this country (and the world) are run on the up and up.:lol:

HANA's focus needs to be on 2 things:

1) more accurate and easily accessible data
2) doing away with past posting privileges

Anyone who then can't win, can find a casino.

twindouble
10-07-2009, 05:28 PM
If it were only that WHALES get the benefit of rebates it wouldn't bother me that much. I could shake this off, the way I do photo beats, poor rides, and terrible decisions by the stewards. But I think it goes BEYOND having a poor opinion and getting paid for it. I'm still not convinced that the only significant perk that whales get is REBATES. I strongly believe that whales get PAST POSTING privileges at some tracks. AP and MTH would be 2 prime examples. This goes quite a bit beyond what's acceptable. I can win against poor opinions but when I have longshots getting hit heavy AFTER they get a clear lead, for example, it gets a lot harder to stay ahead.

I know, people are going to tell me it's not late betting, just all the money coming into the pools late. I don't buy it.

I would think what your suggesting is criminal by it's very nature. Why not report it to the authorities?

InsideThePylons-MW
10-07-2009, 05:31 PM
I would think what your suggesting is criminal by it's very nature. Why not report it to the authorities?

It's not criminal because the other thread about racing not having to obey real world laws points that out.

Tracks giving whales past posting privileges is just an advanced form of rebate.

twindouble
10-07-2009, 05:37 PM
It's not criminal because the other thread about racing not having to obey real world laws points that out.

Tracks giving whales past posting privileges is just an advanced form of rebate.

What does another thread here have to do with past posting? Past posting is breaking the law, always has been as far I know.

the_fat_man
10-07-2009, 05:38 PM
I would think what your suggesting is criminal by it's very nature. Why not report it to the authorities?

There was a race at MTH this summer. I was interested in one of the speeds but there was another need the lead type in the race. I was getting 6 or 7 to one on my horse, so I took a shot, figuring he'd duel and maybe draw. When they broke from the gate, my horse shot to the lead and the other speed was no where to be found. My guy was loose. Right after that he got hammered to half his odds. He didn't win, btw.

When I see things like this I suspect unfair practice. I realize money can come in late but this wasn't a clear case of that.

Who might these 'authorities' be, the stewards?:lol:

twindouble
10-07-2009, 05:44 PM
There was a race at MTH this summer. I was interested in one of the speeds but there was another need the lead type in the race. I was getting 6 or 7 to one on my horse, so I took a shot, figuring he'd duel and maybe draw. When they broke from the gate, my horse shot to the lead and the other speed was no where to be found. My guy was loose. Right after that he got hammered to half his odds. He didn't win, btw.

When I see things like this I suspect unfair practice. I realize money can come in late but this wasn't a clear case of that.

Who might these 'authorities' be, the stewards?:lol:

Federal and State pari-mutual laws clearly state past posting is illegal.

cj
10-07-2009, 05:46 PM
Ummmm

It's not about struggling but enticing people to continue betting big money into your pools. One way is to give them back money, whether they win or lose. But, you've already made them feel 'special' by rebating them. Not like letting them bet a few seconds after the race starts is a big thing? Right?

We all know all things in this country (and the world) are run on the up and up.:lol:

HANA's focus needs to be on 2 things:

1) more accurate and easily accessible data
2) doing away with past posting privileges

Anyone who then can't win, can find a casino.

As I've said before, if everyone that can't win finds a casino, you will be shortly behind them because you won't be able to win either.

andymays
10-07-2009, 05:47 PM
Federal and State pari-mutual laws clearly state past posting is illegal.


My understanding is that most of it is cancelling bets after the start not placing the bets after the start!

the_fat_man
10-07-2009, 05:57 PM
As I've said before, if everyone that can't win finds a casino, you will be shortly behind them because you won't be able to win either.

You're smart enough where I don't need to break this down for you. Your game goes through the roof if you had accurate beaten lengths and times. I'd warrant that you'd win MORE than if they reduced takeout. Suppose I'm right. Why, then, would lowering takeout be your priority?

cj
10-07-2009, 06:07 PM
You're smart enough where I don't need to break this down for you. Your game goes through the roof if you had accurate beaten lengths and times. I'd warrant that you'd win MORE than if they reduced takeout. Suppose I'm right. Why, then, would lowering takeout be your priority?

Lowering takeout keeps people I think I can beat in the game longer.

My only point was you don't want to run the big losers out of the game. You have to win money from somebody if you are going to win.

twindouble
10-07-2009, 06:08 PM
My understanding is that most of it is cancelling bets after the start not placing the bets after the start!


Well, that threw me a curve. So what your saying is, horses that have the lead are the best bet in the race so if their horse doesn't get the lead they cancel. What would the stats be on horses that have the lead winning the race? The topic was late money after the break on leaders dropping the odds. All I know is I can cancel a bet but not after the break.

andymays
10-07-2009, 06:12 PM
Well, that threw me a curve. So what your saying is, horses that have the lead are the best bet in the race so if their horse doesn't get the lead they cancel. What would the stats be on horses that have the lead winning the race? The topic was late money after the break on leaders dropping the odds. All I know is I can cancel a bet but not after the break.


That's my understanding. I think others on the board could explain it a little better than me. I believe the cashiers at the Track can cancel a few seconds after the race goes.

If you loved a horse that needed the lead and put a bundle on him and he didn't break well you could cancel in 2 seconds! There are a few threads on this subject.

Horseplayersbet.com
10-07-2009, 06:18 PM
Well, that threw me a curve. So what your saying is, horses that have the lead are the best bet in the race so if their horse doesn't get the lead they cancel. What would the stats be on horses that have the lead winning the race? The topic was late money after the break on leaders dropping the odds. All I know is I can cancel a bet but not after the break.
There are a couple of jurisdictions that allow for canceling wagers after the race begins. Whether there are syndicates taking advantage of this, I don't know.

Horseplayersbet.com
10-07-2009, 06:19 PM
You're smart enough where I don't need to break this down for you. Your game goes through the roof if you had accurate beaten lengths and times. I'd warrant that you'd win MORE than if they reduced takeout. Suppose I'm right. Why, then, would lowering takeout be your priority?
Hey Fat guy you still didn't answer my question. What keeps you from getting rebates?

the_fat_man
10-07-2009, 06:25 PM
Hey Fat guy you still didn't answer my question. What keeps you from getting rebates?

The possibility that, at some point in time, I will no longer be able to get them.

twindouble
10-07-2009, 06:40 PM
That's my understanding. I think others on the board could explain it a little better than me. I believe the cashiers at the Track can cancel a few seconds after the race goes.

If you loved a horse that needed the lead and put a bundle on him and he didn't break well you could cancel in 2 seconds! There are a few threads on this subject.

A canceled bet just means there's less money in the pool. Is it an unfair advantage? I wouldn't think so if all players have that 2 second option but I don't think it should be done after the break because it's one more negative perception racing doesn't need.

lamboguy
10-07-2009, 06:50 PM
i actually am not going to make a comment on whether there is past porting going on or not. i have structured the way i play now that it doesn't matter whether there are past posters out there in cyberworld or not, it is not going to cost me one red cent either way.

i can tell you this, back in the 1990's i was as good a past poster in parimutuel pools as there ever was short of the guys that went to jail stealing out of the breeder's cup pick 6 pools.

today i play 100% on the levi

rrbauer
10-07-2009, 06:51 PM
That's my understanding. I think others on the board could explain it a little better than me. I believe the cashiers at the Track can cancel a few seconds after the race goes.

If you loved a horse that needed the lead and put a bundle on him and he didn't break well you could cancel in 2 seconds! There are a few threads on this subject.

In Calif it used to be 4 seconds and you could cancel at a machine or with a teller. Machine cancels had limits which varied by location: At Los Al, for example, the limit was $50 at a machine.

andymays
10-10-2009, 07:58 AM
Paulick Report Blog Archive EQUIBASE GETS IT RIGHT

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/equibase-gets-it-right/

Excerpt:

EQUIBASE GETS IT RIGHT
What’s this? Happy horseplayers? Why the racetracks must be giving money away. EIther that, or someone has paid attention to the needs of these long-suffering, often forgotten supporters of the game. In this case, it’s the latter, and the group paying attention to horseplayers was Equibase, the racing industry’s data base owned in tandem by the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America and the Jockey Club.
The Paulick Report has chided Equibase to be more responsive to the needs of the industry and suggested the company focus more on using its data to help build the fan base and worry less about turning a profit for its owners. Shortly after our critique of Equibase, the company announced that it was loosening restrictions on access to historic charts. Most recently, we were pleased to see that Equibase announced a new and improved method of communicating late scratches and changes to horseplayers and fans. We hope these two recent imnprovements in service are signs that Equibase takes its mission seriously.
Jeff Platt, president of the Horseplayers Association of North America, tells the story of how this new program came to be. — Ray Paulick

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________
By Jeff Platt
president Horseplayers Association of North America

Equibase recently announced completion of a new project called Scratches Today. A press release was distributed on Oct. 1 (click here to view). HANA was involved right from the very beginning. Here is the story…

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/equibase-gets-it-right/

twindouble
10-10-2009, 02:36 PM
Sounds like window dressing to me as a player. I have no problem getting late scratches and changes, my ADW'S do good job providing them. Very few players have any use for historic charts with the exception of a nostalgia trip. Well, I guess any step in the right direction is good. Keep their feet to the fire.

Jeff P
10-10-2009, 06:35 PM
Twin, This is anything but window dressing.

You might THINK players were getting timely and accurate scratches and changes info before the new system went into place. But I guarantee you that wasn't the case.

A handful of ADWs have staff dedicated to the job of following track video and picking up new scratches and changes from the video and entering them into their own systems. But that only helps you if you have an account at one of the ADWs that does that.

Everybody else was getting info that was hit or miss at best.

All anyone had to do to confirm this was follow live video and compare changes available on the video feed to changes that were available on the web. Doing that made it glaringly apparent, before the new system went into place, that scratches and changes available on the web was anything but timely and accurate. If you don't believe me use the search function here at PA... you'll find a dozen or so threads where members here express their frustration about something many feel the industry should have been providing all along.

The new system provides a single constantly updated web based source for scratches and changes at all tracks running.

All players everywhere can get current scratches and changes from one place on the web.

The system even allows the player to sign up for an RSS feed... allowing him to receive new changes (in pretty close to real time) on his cell phone.

IMHO that's anything but window dressing.

Respectfully,


-jp

.

Indulto
10-10-2009, 07:15 PM
Sounds like window dressing to me as a player. I have no problem getting late scratches and changes, my ADW'S do good job providing them. Very few players have any use for historic charts with the exception of a nostalgia trip. Well, I guess any step in the right direction is good. Keep their feet to the fire.TD,
The significance of the XML file does is that it enables those who use computer automated handicapping/wagering systems to also automatically process those changes and perhaps even revise their wagers. Just one more weapon in the arsenal of the rebated professional with the continued assistance of the tracks to optimize their combined assault on the unrebated bettor.

Try to imagine the future of racing when all us Form-reading old cyberfarts either die off or are too feeble to play, and there’s no nobody to replace us. Fewer players, fewer horses, fewer tracks, and fewer races will result in even fewer profitable and/or professional bettors. IMO by prioritizing projects like this one over its original mission to grow handle through lower takeout for all, HANA is showing that it is as shortsighted as the rest of the racing industry whose livelihood is dependent upon the sport/game/market.

HANA leaders occasionally offer opinions as opposed to options for planning, but maybe HANA is actually pursuing Jeff P’s advocacy of obtaining rebates for another small group of players at the next lower wagering volume tier. If so, relatively few more players will get lower effective takeout (though perhaps not equal to whales) while the vast majority of players would still be stuck with a slanted playing field.

Racing is in free-fall now with lower handle, lower sale prices, fewer foals, fewer owners, and fewer customers. HANA rerminds me of the Pogo comic strip: “We have seen the enemy and it is us.”

the_fat_man
10-10-2009, 07:15 PM
And this from a company that felt the need to PDF and ENCRYPT their results charts, just in case anyone wanted to use them to extract data. And, even if you want to download them, they still limit how many you can get over a given time period. Guess they must think people only follow a single track.;)

Any way you cut it, EQUIBASE SUCKS. Maybe if they put some time into making their data more accurate and accessible, then we could have something positive to say about them.

Someone must've had some dirt on one of their higherups to get them to even agree to the scratch and historic charts thing.

Guess the powers that be figured that they better start throwing the bettors a bone here and there as they're starting to get more and more vocal about reduced takeouts. But this is all good, as they'll probably do just about anything rather than reducing the take -- including, at some point, FREE and ACCURATE data.

cj
10-10-2009, 07:40 PM
TD,
The significance of the XML file does is that it enables those who use computer automated handicapping/wagering systems to also automatically process those changes and perhaps even revise their wagers. Just one more weapon in the arsenal of the rebated professional with the continued assistance of the tracks to optimize their combined assault on the unrebated bettor...

Just for the record, there is nothing that says the two, rebated players and computer handicappers, are one and the same. Anyone with slightly advanced computer skills can make use of the new Equibase format. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH REBATES. Joe Blow betting from home via any platform can use the information.

cj
10-10-2009, 07:48 PM
And this from a company that felt the need to PDF and ENCRYPT their results charts, just in case anyone wanted to use them to extract data. And, even if you want to download them, they still limit how many you can get over a given time period. Guess they must think people only follow a single track.;)

Any way you cut it, EQUIBASE SUCKS. Maybe if they put some time into making their data more accurate and accessible, then we could have something positive to say about them.

Someone must've had some dirt on one of their higherups to get them to even agree to the scratch and historic charts thing.

Guess the powers that be figured that they better start throwing the bettors a bone here and there as they're starting to get more and more vocal about reduced takeouts. But this is all good, as they'll probably do just about anything rather than reducing the take -- including, at some point, FREE and ACCURATE data.

I agree with some of this. Part of the problem is they just don't have the technology to give us the information we want. It is hard to imagine in today's climate getting that as well as making the information free.

Another part of the problem is they have people making charts that just don't work very hard, are complacent, and/or incompetent. There is little quality control. They rely on customers to point out errors, almost like Microsoft.

Lately, things seem to be getting better. I have had some good discussions with some of the people at Equibase and I'm willing to give them a little time.

GameTheory
10-10-2009, 07:49 PM
TD,
The significance of the XML file does is that it enables those who use computer automated handicapping/wagering systems to also automatically process those changes and perhaps even revise their wagers. Just one more weapon in the arsenal of the rebated professional with the continued assistance of the tracks to optimize their combined assault on the unrebated bettor. Just the opposite. I guarantee you that "rebated professionals" betting large amounts already had a system in place for tracking all changes real-time, probably automated. Heck, I've had an automated "scratch bot" for years and I'm not a rebated professional. What this change does is make it easier for EVERYONE to get changes, and since the big time players already had that taken care of, it effectively targets the small guy, not the other way around. And the same will be true of any other positive changes to come. The big players ALREADY GET EVERYTHING so any new changes that make anything easier, cheaper, or more available will be going to the small to medium players.

GameTheory
10-10-2009, 07:51 PM
And this from a company that felt the need to PDF and ENCRYPT their results charts, just in case anyone wanted to use them to extract data. And, even if you want to download them, they still limit how many you can get over a given time period. Guess they must think people only follow a single track.;)

Any way you cut it, EQUIBASE SUCKS. Maybe if they put some time into making their data more accurate and accessible, then we could have something positive to say about them.

Someone must've had some dirt on one of their higherups to get them to even agree to the scratch and historic charts thing.

Guess the powers that be figured that they better start throwing the bettors a bone here and there as they're starting to get more and more vocal about reduced takeouts. But this is all good, as they'll probably do just about anything rather than reducing the take -- including, at some point, FREE and ACCURATE data.Equibase does suck for the reasons you mentioned, but I don't think you can blame takeout on them. What power do they have over it?

Horseplayersbet.com
10-10-2009, 08:36 PM
TD,
.... but maybe HANA is actually pursuing Jeff P’s advocacy of obtaining rebates for another small group of players at the next lower wagering volume tier. If so, relatively few more players will get lower effective takeout (though perhaps not equal to whales) while the vast majority of players would still be stuck with a slanted playing field.

If this was 2002 instead of 2009 I have a feeling you'd be blaming 9/11 on HANA, and you'd be on this board saying that Bush is going after the wrong guy, as he would be wasting his efforts going after OBL, and he should pursue Jeff instead.

But seriously, I complained of what was corrected by Equibase long before I ever knew what a rebate was.

This move helps all bettors potentially. And it shows the tracks that they need to illustrate surface changes and scratches in a much more efficient way moving forward.

I still made bets at Hawthorne a couple of days ago thinking the races were off the grass because the track was wet. My fault. I should have looked at the new Equibase feed. It didn't wind up costing me though. I lost either way.

Indulto
10-10-2009, 09:42 PM
Just for the record, there is nothing that says the two, rebated players and computer handicappers, are one and the same. Anyone with slightly advanced computer skills can make use of the new Equibase format. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH REBATES. Joe Blow betting from home via any platform can use the information.Where did I say rebated players and computer handicappers are one and the same? Or that others can’t use the info/format? The issue I raised was one of priorities and influence.

Indulto
10-10-2009, 09:44 PM
Just the opposite. I guarantee you that "rebated professionals" betting large amounts already had a system in place for tracking all changes real-time, probably automated. Heck, I've had an automated "scratch bot" for years and I'm not a rebated professional. What this change does is make it easier for EVERYONE to get changes, and since the big time players already had that taken care of, it effectively targets the small guy, not the other way around. And the same will be true of any other positive changes to come. The big players ALREADY GET EVERYTHING so any new changes that make anything easier, cheaper, or more available will be going to the small to medium players.Are you suggesting that big players won’t be taking advantage of this facility, particularly the RSS feed?Equibase does suck for the reasons you [tfm] mentioned, but I don't think you can blame takeout on them. What power do they have over it?Equibase is owned by the tracks. Its policies reflect their objectives, priorities, and attitude toward their customers.

Indulto
10-10-2009, 09:47 PM
If this was 2002 instead of 2009 I have a feeling you'd be blaming 9/11 on HANA, and you'd be on this board saying that Bush is going after the wrong guy, as he would be wasting his efforts going after OBL, and he should pursue Jeff instead.

But seriously, …JP is JP. Who are you, CG? After all your rhetoric explaining where racing went wrong, why it’s dying, why saving the game requires a level playing field to keep smaller players in the game, and arguing endlessly in every corner of cyberspace with every butthead that decides to press your button thereby creating resentment against -- and resistance to -- all supporters of lower takeout; you show up as another takeout-skimming ADW owner and bust my b$$$s? Some might consider you a hypocrite who plays both sides against the middle.

But seriously, ...

chickenhead
10-10-2009, 09:51 PM
I agree HANA was off base on this one. HANA, if you want to grow the game -- you need to focus on bringing in the new blood, by that I mean young people.

Now, answer me this -- have you ever even seen a young person use a computer? Have you ever seen a young person with a cell phone, much less a "smart" phone (whatever the hell that is, some kind of tiny computer I guess)? I think the jury came in a long time ago -- young people do not like computers, they do not understand computers, they do not trust computers. And they absolutely HATE tiny computers that fit in your pocket.

HANA should not be spending any time trying to make things easier for people that are comfortable using computers, they are a dying breed. HANA needs to be focusing instead on OLD SCHOOL MEDIA. Every young persons house I go to there are stacks and stacks of paper, you can hardly get in the door with all the NY Times stacked up all over the place. Their walls are generally lined with LP's and CD's, and they usually have a bunch of big Yellow Pages books that their rotary phone is sitting on. THAT is your target audience, HANA, it'd be best if you even tried to understand them.

I hope HANA at least asked Equibase if they'd consider faxing (the last really useful technology to come along) these scratches to people. With, as a fallback, just printing them out and sending them by way of the good old USPS. Everybody likes getting mail, it feels good.

jonnielu
10-10-2009, 09:53 PM
TD,


Try to imagine the future of racing when all us Form-reading old cyberfarts either die off or are too feeble to play, and there’s no nobody to replace us. Fewer players, fewer horses, fewer tracks, and fewer races will result in even fewer profitable and/or professional bettors. IMO by prioritizing projects like this one over its original mission to grow handle through lower takeout for all, HANA is showing that it is as shortsighted as the rest of the racing industry whose livelihood is dependent upon the sport/game/market.


Actually, it is same-sighted as HANA comes on board with racing management. There is now a shared vision as a co-opted HANA starts to work in the mode of shill for management. HANA lost all credibility when it signed on to the KEEP campaign to bring slots to Kentucky.

jdl

the_fat_man
10-10-2009, 09:57 PM
Equibase is owned by the tracks. Its policies reflect their objectives, priorities, and attitude toward their customers.

Thought it was obvious. Thanks for clearing that up.

Indulto
10-10-2009, 10:15 PM
I agree HANA was off base on this one. HANA, if you want to grow the game -- you need to focus on bringing in the new blood, by that I mean young people.

Now, answer me this -- have you ever even seen a young person use a computer? Have you ever seen a young person with a cell phone, much less a "smart" phone (whatever the hell that is, some kind of tiny computer I guess)? I think the jury came in a long time ago -- young people do not like computers, they do not understand computers, they do not trust computers. And they absolutely HATE tiny computers that fit in your pocket.

HANA should not be spending any time trying to make things easier for people that are comfortable using computers, they are a dying breed. HANA needs to be focusing instead on OLD SCHOOL MEDIA. Every young persons house I go to there are stacks and stacks of paper, you can hardly get in the door with all the NY Times stacked up all over the place. Their walls are generally lined with LP's and CD's, and they usually have a bunch of big Yellow Pages books that their rotary phone is sitting on. THAT is your target audience, HANA, it'd be best if you even tried to understand them.

I hope HANA at least asked Equibase if they'd consider faxing (the last really useful technology to come along) these scratches to people. With, as a fallback, just printing them out and sending them by way of the good old USPS. Everybody likes getting mail, it feels good.:lol: :lol:

chickenhead
10-10-2009, 10:16 PM
"Two self interested entities applying bubble gum to the cracks of an antiquated and obsolete system. In the effort to garner publicity, HANA and Equibase continue in the failure to appeal to two generations of potential fans, already alienated by the overload of grandpa’s information format."

I just saw this comment, another one I agree with. Hello, McFly, anyone home? Are you even listening? I want to simplify my life, not make it more complicated. Who's in the race, who's not -- YOU ARE BLOWING MY MIND with all this useless info. Why are you forcing me to look at all this crap?

Stay out of my head Equibase, I could care less -- I cannot handle all this shit. I want a damn mole to pop up out of a hole, and I want to whack it. That is literally all I want. I don't want to know the moles name, who his daddy is, what other holes he has been in, or whether he showed up for work today. Maybe what color he is, that is important. I can't make money without that. But the rest, stop forcing me to look at it.

Horseplayersbet.com
10-10-2009, 10:29 PM
JP is JP. Who are you, CG? After all your rhetoric explaining where racing went wrong, why it’s dying, why saving the game requires a level playing field to keep smaller players in the game, and arguing endlessly in every corner of cyberspace with every butthead that decides to press your button thereby creating resentment against -- and resistance to -- all supporters of lower takeout; you show up as another takeout-skimming ADW owner and bust my b$$$s? Some might consider you a hypocrite who plays both sides against the middle.

But seriously, ...
It isn't rhetoric on where and why racing went wrong.

Saving the game requires lower takeouts either through tracks lowering them or by rebates.

We need publicized winners so that young people will have a carrot to go after just like with Betfair and online poker.

We need players to last longer so that friends, family and coworkers of current horseplayers might get exposed to the game.

Getting tracks to reduce takeout by even a point is a monumental task, and unless HANA approaches 25,000 horseplayers (who play every weekend at least), it is impossible to use coercion to get tracks to lower the price. Right now we are trying to reason with a dysfunctional industry.

Getting tracks to get together to lower takeout where it should be (10-12%) is like getting the earth to revolve around the moon.

The problem hasn't changed over the last two years (the price is too high), and the solutions remain the same (lower the price of the game for as many players as possible. I would have said all two years ago, but I was ignorant of state laws and restrictions, though HANA might be able to get some state to make more favorable changes for horseplayers).

No hypocrite here, just a realist.

twindouble
10-11-2009, 12:49 AM
I don't know anything about, "real time handicapping, wagering". I get the early scratches, late scratches and changes with no problem. How many players use these systems? I would think just a small percentage of players overall. Hey, if they are the greater majority, I'm way behind the curve. But I doubt it. I would hope to think HANA is working for the majority.

GameTheory
10-11-2009, 01:11 AM
Are you suggesting that big players won’t be taking advantage of this facility, particularly the RSS feed?Of course they'll use it, if they determine it is more reliable than their current methods. But it is a lateral move -- it doesn't give them any new advantage. On the contrary, it helps the player with less time and resources to devote to these things by making the information easier to get. The fact that you are complaining about this shows that you will complain about ANYTHING just to complain. But I'm sorry, I'm supposed to be ignoring you. I'm pretty sure no one needs my help to see that you are a clown. So you can insult me back and we'll leave it at that.

Equibase is owned by the tracks. Its policies reflect their objectives, priorities, and attitude toward their customers.Yes, I know. But the legal entity called Equibase still has no power over takeout that I know of. So saying, "Equibase should lower takeout" makes no sense. People need to realize that even if a racetrack WANTED to reduce takeout, they wouldn't necessarily be able to do so because these things (depending on the jurisdiction) are encoded into state law. Racetrack management along with the various relevant state legislatures are who needs to reduce takeout, not Equibase Company LLC.

chickenhead
10-11-2009, 01:28 AM
I don't know anything about, "real time handicapping, wagering". I get the early scratches, late scratches and changes with no problem. How many players use these systems? I would think just a small percentage of players overall. Hey, if they are the greater majority, I'm way behind the curve. But I doubt it. I would hope to think HANA is working for the majority.

I don't use any kind of real time handicap-o-matic computer system. But, when I open my web browser, now the first thing I see are any changes -- they show up right on my home page, in iGoogle. I like that. It's the sort of thing every other information source (newspapers, blogs, etc) has offered for about 10 years now. I'm glad racing has decided to finally enter the fold, I only hope they expand what they are offering in this way.

chickenhead
10-11-2009, 02:10 AM
just an example.

I'm not going to even go into the major sports like MLB and Football, whats available with them. How about some lesser known sports, how about Cricket?

Cricket has a separate feed available for 55,000 different players. Yeah, you read that right. Plus every country, every match, every field, whatever. If you like Cricket, you're in luck. You can get whatever info you want sent to you, you don't have to go searching around for it. That's CRICKET.

http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/content/page/381868.html?addata=rss_hpnp

We just got, so far as I know, our first feed of official data. Maybe we can get some of the other basic likes entries, results, and carryovers. Maybe we can someday get all the things you might want to put on a watch-list. We'll still be a decade behind cricket in how we let people access their information, but maybe we'll have passed, I don't know, curling.

twindouble
10-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Chickenhead;


Are you saying Equibase will provide the late scratches, like at the gate, post parade or in the paddock sooner than the ADW's? I was aware of what was called "Batch wagering" but I thought they became illegal to use. No one has answered my question. How many players use that system to handicap and wager? Anything HANA is able to achieve should be for the majority of players, not just a few. Having a Cadillac is nice but the majority drive Fords.

Jeff P
10-11-2009, 12:26 PM
Twin, you wrote:

"Are you saying Equibase will provide the late scratches, like at the gate, post parade or in the paddock sooner than the ADW's?"

My reply:

Yes. My understanding is that Equibase chart callers are now entering late scratches and changes into the system as soon as they are announced over the PA system by the track announcer. Unless an ADW has someone dedicated to doing the same task for all tracks running, late scratches and changes are going to show up in the Equibase system first.

Under the old system, reporting of late scratches and changes by Equibase - and in many cases the rest of the industry - was hit or miss at best.



You also wrote:

"I was aware of what was called "Batch wagering" but I thought they became illegal to use."

My reply:

The Equibase Scratches Today Project has nothing to do with "Batch" wagering. It is limited in scope to reporting scratches and changes in an accurate and timely manner. That's all.

Batch wagering is a completely separate thing.

Batch wagering refers to wagering interfaces provided by ADWs and Offshore Rebaters. With batch wagering, the wagering interface enables the player to submit multiple wagers all at once... in batches.

And no, to my knowledge - submitting wagers in batches is certainly not illegal.

NYRA limits the number of wagers that can be submitted within a given time frame to one wager per second. All ADWs and simulcast facilities offering the NYRA signal have to enforce this limit. NYRA does perform periodic audits. My understanding is that NYRA caught RGS breaking this rule several years ago and pulled the signal as a result - and has refused to give it back to RGS even though RGS has asked for it back several times.

Understand that you don't have to be a whale in order to do batch wagering. ADWs like Youbet and PTC offer wager submission by text file upload. Other ADWs are sure to follow.

Submitting wagers in batches is certainly not limited to whales. Even the $2.00 bettor can submit his or her wagers in batches using the text file upload feature.



You also wrote:

"No one has answered my question. How many players use that system to handicap and wager?"

My reply:

I honestly don't know how many players are using it. The new scratches and changes reporting system was announced as having gone "live" on 9/29/2009. It's been in existence less than two weeks.

My hope is that players everywhere... large and small... will use enjoy using it for many years to come.

But before that can happen they have to find out about the new system and understand what it actually is.



You also wrote:

"Anything HANA is able to achieve should be for the majority of players, not just a few. Having a Cadillac is nice but the majority drive Fords."

My reply:

Anybody and everybody can use the new system.

It's free.

All you have to do is go to Equibase.com, open up the "Search for Products" drop down and select "Today's Scratches and Changes."

You'll instantly be viewing web pages for all tracks running on any given day - and the scratches and changes on those pages are continuously updated with a lag time that's as close to real time as you are likely ever going to find.


The new system is all about reporting scratches and changes in one place on the web in an accurate and timely manner. It has absolutely nothing to do with batch wagering.


-jp

.

Canadian
10-11-2009, 01:01 PM
Someone mentioned awareness was the biggest accomplishment and I think that is true. I know have more hope for the game because of HANA (or the people out there promoting their views) then I ever have. Not because they accomplished any of their goals, but they pointed out to me such terrible flaws in the system that I never even knew existed. Before I thought horse racing was a dying industry becuase of the usuall reasons mentioned (changing times, competition, ect), now I believe the biggest reason of all is a terrible business plan.

twindouble
10-11-2009, 01:13 PM
Twin, you wrote:

"Are you saying Equibase will provide the late scratches, like at the gate, post parade or in the paddock sooner than the ADW's?"

My reply:

Yes. My understanding is that Equibase chart callers are now entering late scratches and changes into the system as soon as they are announced over the PA system by the track announcer. Unless an ADW has someone dedicated to doing the same task for all tracks running, late scratches and changes are going to show up in the Equibase system first.

Under the old system, reporting of late scratches and changes by Equibase - and in many cases the rest of the industry - was hit or miss at best.



You also wrote:

"I was aware of what was called "Batch wagering" but I thought they became illegal to use."

My reply:

The Equibase Scratches Today Project has nothing to do with "Batch" wagering. It is limited in scope to reporting scratches and changes in an accurate and timely manner. That's all.

Batch wagering is a completely separate thing.

Batch wagering refers to wagering interfaces provided by ADWs and Offshore Rebaters. With batch wagering, the wagering interface enables the player to submit multiple wagers all at once... in batches.

And no, to my knowledge - submitting wagers in batches is certainly not illegal.

NYRA limits the number of wagers that can be submitted within a given time frame to one wager per second. All ADWs and simulcast facilities offering the NYRA signal have to enforce this limit. NYRA does perform periodic audits. My understanding is that NYRA caught RGS breaking this rule several years ago and pulled the signal as a result - and has refused to give it back to RGS even though RGS has asked for it back several times.

Understand that you don't have to be a whale in order to do batch wagering. ADWs like Youbet and PTC offer wager submission by text file upload. Other ADWs are sure to follow.

Submitting wagers in batches is certainly not limited to whales. Even the $2.00 bettor can submit his or her wagers in batches using the text file upload feature.



You also wrote:

"No one has answered my question. How many players use that system to handicap and wager?"

My reply:

I honestly don't know how many players are using it. The new scratches and changes reporting system was announced as having gone "live" on 9/29/2009. It's been in existence less than two weeks.

My hope is that players everywhere... large and small... will use enjoy using it for many years to come.

But before that can happen they have to find out about the new system and understand what it actually is.



You also wrote:

"Anything HANA is able to achieve should be for the majority of players, not just a few. Having a Cadillac is nice but the majority drive Fords."

My reply:

Anybody and everybody can use the new system.

It's free.

All you have to do is go to Equibase.com, open up the "Search for Products" drop down and select "Today's Scratches and Changes."

You'll instantly be viewing web pages for all tracks running on any given day - and the scratches and changes on those pages are continuously updated with a lag time that's as close to real time as you are likely ever going to find.


The new system is all about reporting scratches and changes in one place on the web in an accurate and timely manner. It has absolutely nothing to do with batch wagering.


-jp

.


Thanks for the clarification jp.

I wasn't clear on the batch wagering, I thought this new feature by Equibase was tied into a computer wagering system in real time and not available to the public as you explained.

Quote; jp.
Submitting wagers in batches is certainly not limited to whales. Even the $2.00 bettor can submit his or her wagers in batches using the text file upload feature.

I thought a player had to qualify to use that system and it was based on how much they churn. I would think those that use it do churn a lot money and recieve good rebates. Is that true?

Thanks,

T.D.

BillW
10-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Someone mentioned awareness was the biggest accomplishment and I think that is true. I know have more hope for the game because of HANA (or the people out there promoting their views) then I ever have. Not because they accomplished any of their goals, but they pointed out to me such terrible flaws in the system that I never even knew existed. Before I thought horse racing was a dying industry becuase of the usuall reasons mentioned (changing times, competition, ect), now I believe the biggest reason of all is a terrible business plan.

Player education is a big part of the solution. An informed consumer is a big motivator for change.

cj
10-11-2009, 01:45 PM
I thought a player had to qualify to use that system and it was based on how much they churn. I would think those that use it do churn a lot money and recieve good rebates. Is that true?

Thanks,

T.D.

No, that is not true. You do have to have a little more than basic computer knowledge though, in my opinion.

BillW
10-11-2009, 01:50 PM
No, that is not true. You do have to have a little more than basic computer knowledge though, in my opinion.

At least until some software vendor adds the capability into their software :p

Jeff P
10-11-2009, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the clarification jp.

I wasn't clear on the batch wagering, I thought this new feature by Equibase was tied into a computer wagering system in real time and not available to the public as you explained. You're welcome.

Equibase is the industry's information gathering repository. It is an arm of the Jockey Club and has absolutley nothing to do with ADWs, rebates, or batch wagering.

From Hoovers:
http://www.hoovers.com/equibase/--ID__117864--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml
Equibase Company Description
Equibase knows its ponies. The company is the official horseracing information and statistics keeper for the thoroughbred racing industry and supplies information to a variety of media, including the industry's daily publisher, Daily Racing Form. The company's database of information covers more than 140 tracks and 1,400 simulcast locations throughout North America. Equibase's Web site offers handicapping information and services. Its Virtual Stable service notifies fans with real-time results for horses they wish to follow. Equibase is a joint venture between The Jockey Club and the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America.


I thought a player had to qualify to use that system and it was based on how much they churn. I would think those that use it do churn a lot money and recieve good rebates. Is that true?

Thanks,

T.D.
No. Again, the new scratches and changes system is limited in scope to timely accurate reporting of scratches and changes only. That's all. It (and Equibase) has nothing to do whatsoever with rebates or wagering interfaces offered by rebaters or ADWs.

The new scratches and changes reporting system is available to everybody.

It's free.

All you have to do to use it is go to Equibase.com.



-jp

.

twindouble
10-11-2009, 02:21 PM
You're welcome.

Equibase is the industry's information gathering repository. It is an arm of the Jockey Club and has absolutley nothing to do with ADWs, rebates, or batch wagering.

From Hoovers:
http://www.hoovers.com/equibase/--ID__117864--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml




No. Again, the new scratches and changes system is limited in scope to timely accurate reporting of scratches and changes only. That's all. It (and Equibase) has nothing to do whatsoever with rebates or wagering interfaces offered by rebaters or ADWs.

The new scratches and changes reporting system is available to everybody.

It's free.

All you have to do to use it is go to Equibase.com.



-jp

.

Thanks, I understood that.

My question on Batch wagering system was can it link with Equibase in real time for scratches and changes? Also what it takes to qualify to use the batch wagering software. Like I said, I would think those that use it churn a lot money and get good rebates. Correct?

castaway01
10-11-2009, 02:29 PM
I agree HANA was off base on this one. HANA, if you want to grow the game -- you need to focus on bringing in the new blood, by that I mean young people.

Now, answer me this -- have you ever even seen a young person use a computer? Have you ever seen a young person with a cell phone, much less a "smart" phone (whatever the hell that is, some kind of tiny computer I guess)? I think the jury came in a long time ago -- young people do not like computers, they do not understand computers, they do not trust computers. And they absolutely HATE tiny computers that fit in your pocket.

HANA should not be spending any time trying to make things easier for people that are comfortable using computers, they are a dying breed. HANA needs to be focusing instead on OLD SCHOOL MEDIA. Every young persons house I go to there are stacks and stacks of paper, you can hardly get in the door with all the NY Times stacked up all over the place. Their walls are generally lined with LP's and CD's, and they usually have a bunch of big Yellow Pages books that their rotary phone is sitting on. THAT is your target audience, HANA, it'd be best if you even tried to understand them.

I hope HANA at least asked Equibase if they'd consider faxing (the last really useful technology to come along) these scratches to people. With, as a fallback, just printing them out and sending them by way of the good old USPS. Everybody likes getting mail, it feels good.

I laughed. :)

highnote
10-11-2009, 02:35 PM
My question on Batch wagering system was can it link with Equibase in real time for scratches and changes?

Virtually any betting system that has internet capability can connect to Equibase and get real time scratches and changes.


Also what it takes to qualify to use the batch wagering software.

Anyone can qualify to use batch wagering software. All you need is some batch wagering software. Go to premierturfclub.com and read about their system. I think other ADWs may have similar capabilities, but I don't have a list.


Like I said, I would think those that use it churn a lot money and get good rebates. Correct?

Given that the Equibase system is so new I would be surprised if there are more than one or two "whale" entities using it with their current systems. As GameTheory wrote, those big bettors we keep hearing about probably already have systems in place for scratches and changes. I'm sure some of those big bettors have employees whose job it is to monitor those changes via live video.

What Equibase has made possible is for smaller players to have the same capabilities as big players.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. HANA is trying to do things to help small players, big players, medium size players, all players.

DJofSD
10-11-2009, 02:42 PM
Thanks, I understood that.

My question on Batch wagering system was can it link with Equibase in real time for scratches and changes? Also what it takes to qualify to use the batch wagering software. Like I said, I would think those that use it churn a lot money and get good rebates. Correct?
As already stated above, yes, any decent programming tool or use of free internet oriented tools will allow you to expand the software to access the scratches and changes from the web site.

But what I find is commendable is the use of XML. A very wise decission on some one's part over there at Equibase.

Now, BRISNET, are you listening? Are you paying attention? Migrate you web site and the offerings away from HTML to XML -- please! And stop throwing up road blocks to access and use free information posted on your web site.

twindouble
10-11-2009, 03:24 PM
I laughed. :)

Yes, that was funny. Don't you think it's a good idea to first take care of their core business first? Especially in this economy. I think traditional handicappers are in a better position to bring in young players. Computer technology will just fall into place with today's young. Myself, don't have any need for it but I've adapted to many changes through out my racing career. When it comes to online wagering, I don't know what I would do without it.

Indulto
10-11-2009, 06:19 PM
Of course they'll use it, if they determine it is more reliable than their current methods. But it is a lateral move -- it doesn't give them any new advantage. On the contrary, it helps the player with less time and resources to devote to these things by making the information easier to get. The fact that you are complaining about this shows that you will complain about ANYTHING just to complain. But I'm sorry, I'm supposed to be ignoring you. I'm pretty sure no one needs my help to see that you are a clown. So you can insult me back and we'll leave it at that.I'm not going to insult you, GT. You embarrass yourself, however, when you resort to name-calling rather than address more important issues.

Indeed I complain frequently. I do it because it appears to be the only option available to get HANA to reveal anything that isn’t a fait accompli. Here’s another one for you. Waldrop’s Blood-Horse piece on the need for better pricing was published on Oct.1, and ten days later there’s still nothing forthcoming from HANA to indicate they are following up by trying to meet with him or by getting feedback from the membership regarding that issue prior to such a meeting the way Crist did for his Jockey Club presentation on medication policies or, more recently, like Pricci did regarding the improvement of video presentation for simulcasts.

Pardon me for being underwhelmed by the decision to offer a chest-beating account of HANA’s involvement with Equibase instead of pursuing the most significant statement to horseplayers from an industry insider since the war room discussions began.Yes, I know. But the legal entity called Equibase still has no power over takeout that I know of. So saying, "Equibase should lower takeout" makes no sense. People need to realize that even if a racetrack WANTED to reduce takeout, they wouldn't necessarily be able to do so because these things (depending on the jurisdiction) are encoded into state law. Racetrack management along with the various relevant state legislatures are who needs to reduce takeout, not Equibase Company LLC.Who are you quoting? Where else in this thread did that line of reasoning appear?

highnote
10-11-2009, 06:29 PM
To steal a line from "Amadeus"...

When one reads such words, what can one say except, Indulto. :D

Reading Indulto is like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher.

whah whah wha wha whah :sleeping:

:D

Indulto
10-11-2009, 07:19 PM
To get more "little guys" on board you need to have some focus on regional issues.

You would need regional HANA representatives to address these types of issues and protocols for addressing them.What is your region? And are you willing to be a regional rep?

Maybe Indulto can take the SoCal region?Maybe Indulto can take the SoCal region?I'm in Southern California and I hate synthetic surfaces. Did I mention that I hate synthetic surfaces? AM,
If you aren't already HANA's SoCal regional rep, I think the position just opened up. ;)

andymays
10-11-2009, 07:37 PM
AM,
If you aren't already HANA's SoCal regional rep, I think the position just opened up. ;)


They don't want me. I'm too much of a "Loose Cannon". :)

I might be more effective as a One Man Army! :)

TurfRuler
10-23-2009, 06:58 PM
When I handicap in a public place where people look over my shoulder I get questioned a lot about what I am doing. It goes like this.

"What are you doing?"

'I'm handicapping a horse race trying to predict the winner of a race that is being run today. It is a hobby of mine."

"Ok, but seriously, what are you doing?

"I'm handicapping a horse race."

"But are you going to tell me what you are doing?"

Indulto
10-24-2009, 12:26 AM
Hi I’m your new neighbor.

Oh, so you’re the new condo buyer.

Yeah. Are you on the homeowner’s council?

No, seven of the first nine original owners control that 9-member board.

When was the last election?

There’s never been one.

Well how were the two replacements chosen?

They were appointed by the remaining board members.

But there’s 200 homes in the complex and it’s 20 years old. Doesn’t anyone else want to serve?

Sure, but these are the owners of the nine homes right next to the golf course and always among the top finishers in the annual tournament. They make sure the course and the clubhouse are well-maintained. They also have contacts among the county board of supervisors.

Do we have any say in what goes on?

Not really.

Does anybody else have any influence with these people?

Well there’s a guy who bought a place like ours last year, and it turns out that he plays a mean game of golf. He’s offered to buy the home of the next board member who dies or has to go to assisted living.

How do I find out who they are?

Just go to the clubhouse and sign-up.

Is there any way to find out who else lives here with interests besides golf?

Well they used to print a phone book for the complex, but they stopped when the tennis players started organizing to get some courts installed. There’s probably been 50% turnover since then.

At least I got a good deal on the place.