Hypothetical Zenyatta-in-the-Woodward questions [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

statik27

09-14-2009, 03:09 PM

Interested in opinions of where people think Zenyatta have finished in the Woodward this year, and why?

Wish this didn't have to be speculated about, but it's not the horse's fault for the way she's handled.

Thx.

This thread has can of worms written all over it lol.

Honestly, speculation is pretty cheap, we'd have to see the match up for real to know the outcome. Personally though, if Zenyatta was going to beat Rachel it would have been with a race shape exactly like the woodward. With RA taking on all comers in a blistering pace up front and Zenyatta galloping along at the back. She always ends up in the center of the track down the stretch and might have gotten up ala Touch Gold's Belmont win, with RA never knowing she'd been beat.

But thats just speculation and its cheap.

bks

09-14-2009, 03:21 PM

Honestly, speculation is pretty cheap, we'd have to see the match up for real to know the outcome. Personally though, if Zenyatta was going to beat Rachel it would have been with a race shape exactly like the woodward. With RA taking on all comers in a blistering pace up front and Zenyatta galloping along at the back. She always ends up in the center of the track down the stretch and might have gotten up ala Touch Gold's Belmont win, with RA never knowing she'd been beat.

Obviously we're speculating, and no harm intended to Rachel's reputation. I'm a Zenyatta fan but that doesn't make it difficult for me to see that Rachel is a complete monster.

It's an intriguing question to me for just the reasons you brought up. It was Zenyatta's kind of race. Now, one can certainly make the case she still wouldn't have won. Probably most will make that case!

But if so, where does she finish? I see it as very likely she's going to go by Bullsbay. And that puts her within a length or so of Rachel.

Tom

09-14-2009, 03:23 PM

Zenny wins it by 2.

Wickel

09-14-2009, 04:06 PM

Wish this didn't have to be speculated about, but it's not the horse's fault for the way she's handled.

Thx.

I hope you're talking about RA's connections here. If Jackson and company want Horse of the Year honors, their only option is the Breeders Cup Classic--which is our sport's World Series, Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, NCAA Championships. To be champ, you must take on and beat the best. In winning three Super Bowls recently, New England wasn't afforded the option of choosing which stadium to play in. If the tables were turned, and the Breeders Cup were held in Florida, Kentucky or New York this year, Zenyatta would be there--dirt or synthetic. Period.

Java Gold@TFT

09-14-2009, 04:48 PM

I hope you're talking about RA's connections here. If Jackson and company want Horse of the Year honors, their only option is the Breeders Cup Classic--which is our sport's World Series, Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, NCAA Championships. To be champ, you must take on and beat the best. In winning three Super Bowls recently, New England wasn't afforded the option of choosing which stadium to play in. If the tables were turned, and the Breeders Cup were held in Florida, Kentucky or New York this year, Zenyatta would be there--dirt or synthetic. Period.
That's a joke, period. I'll give you 5-1 odds right now that she doesn't run in the BC Classic on her favorite surface. Moss will take the easy way out in order to keep "the streak" alive. That is more important to him than winning the BC Classic. She will run on Friday. Especially if Rachel went to the Classic (which we know she won't) Moss would still run in the easier race. Can't wait to see what shapes up when the winners of the Alabama and Personal Ensign show up. Careless Jewel has plenty of polycrap experience coming from Canada.

bks

09-14-2009, 04:52 PM

I hope you're talking about RA's connections here. If Jackson and company want Horse of the Year honors, their only option is the Breeders Cup Classic--which is our sport's World Series, Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, NCAA Championships. To be champ, you must take on and beat the best. In winning three Super Bowls recently, New England wasn't afforded the option of choosing which stadium to play in. If the tables were turned, and the Breeders Cup were held in Florida, Kentucky or New York this year, Zenyatta would be there--dirt or synthetic. Period.

I agree wholeheartedly, even though I was talking about Zenyatta's connections. I'd like to see her on the track more often, or at least against superior competition (males) than she's faced.

The thing that bothers me most about Jess Jackson and the synthetic flap is that he's got no solid evidence the synthetic got Curlin beat. One could easily argue that Curlin was already over the top by the Breeders Cup. (And I seem to remember he got beat by a filly, on dirt, while in top form a year before).

When Curlin moved on the turn in the Classic, he didn't spin his wheels. He got outkicked. The track supported explosive moves on the turn all week. Ventura's move was historic. Midnight Lute did not have trouble making a huge move on the turn. There was at least one other move like that I think I'm forgetting.

So yeah, saying Curlin got beat by the track is not obvious, to say the least.

bks

09-14-2009, 04:57 PM

Java,

Zenyatta would be at the Breeders Cup no matter where it was. Come on.

She shipped to Churchill in the spring. She shipped to Oaklawn last year.

FenceBored

09-14-2009, 05:08 PM

Java,

Zenyatta would be at the Breeders Cup no matter where it was. Come on.

She shipped to Churchill in the spring. She shipped to Oaklawn last year.

Now, which race did Zenyatta run in at Churchill? Oh, that's right, she scratched, because they didn't like the surface.

Wickel

09-14-2009, 05:54 PM

That's a joke, period. I'll give you 5-1 odds right now that she doesn't run in the BC Classic on her favorite surface. Moss will take the easy way out in order to keep "the streak" alive. That is more important to him than winning the BC Classic. She will run on Friday. Especially if Rachel went to the Classic (which we know she won't) Moss would still run in the easier race. Can't wait to see what shapes up when the winners of the Alabama and Personal Ensign show up. Careless Jewel has plenty of polycrap experience coming from Canada.

You mght be right about Moss. He'd probably take the easier way out. But what I'm saying is that Jackson won't even give the Ladies Classic a second thought. You know why? Because it would match RA against a legitimate field--Zenyatta, Careless Jewel, Icon Project and Stardom Bound. She won't be facing Munnings, Macho Again, Big Drama and the "claiming" fillies she beat in the four-horse field.

Java Gold@TFT

09-14-2009, 06:13 PM

You mght be right about Moss. He'd probably take the easier way out. But what I'm saying is that Jackson won't even give the Ladies Classic a second thought. You know why? Because it would match RA against a legitimate field--Zenyatta, Careless Jewel, Icon Project and Stardom Bound. She won't be facing Munnings, Macho Again, Big Drama and the "claiming" fillies she beat in the four-horse field.
And exactly how many Grade - I winners has Zenyatta faced this year? Life Is Sweet and who else? By my count Rachel has beaten the winners of the SA Derby, KY Derby, Belmont, Travers, Acorn, Test, Secretariat, Stephen Foster and Whitney while winning the G-I KY Oaks, Preakness, Mother Goose, Haskell and Woodward. Yep, she's faced a bunch of claimers all year while Zenyatta has faced the best available. You got me there. It's just a shame that she keeps running against these allowance and claiming horses. And those are only the G-I winners she has beaten - adding in the rest of the graded stakes winners would just get embarrassing.

Wickel

09-14-2009, 06:24 PM

And exactly how many Grade - I winners has Zenyatta faced this year? Life Is Sweet and who else? By my count Rachel has beaten the winners of the SA Derby, KY Derby, Belmont, Travers, Acorn, Test, Secretariat, Stephen Foster and Whitney while winning the G-I KY Oaks, Preakness, Mother Goose, Haskell and Woodward. Yep, she's faced a bunch of claimers all year while Zenyatta has faced the best available. You got me there. It's just a shame that she keeps running against these allowance and claiming horses. And those are only the G-I winners she has beaten - adding in the rest of the graded stakes winners would just get embarrassing.

Like someone alluded to in an earlier thread: "All talented colts (and fillies) but nothing exceptional. Just one of those years--with the exception of Mine That Bird.

Wickel

09-14-2009, 06:26 PM

And don't forget that Stardom Bound still lurks ...images/UBGX/E1.gif

andymays

09-14-2009, 06:29 PM

And don't forget that Stardom Bound still lurks ...images/UBGX/E1.gif

Stardom Bound never progressed from 2 to 3.

Maybe they found something physically that they could fix since the last time she ran.

FenceBored

09-14-2009, 06:29 PM

And don't forget that Stardom Bound still lurks ...images/UBGX/E1.gif

Would this be the one who clocked 39.33 for 3f in her last work?

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 06:32 PM

And exactly how many Grade - I winners has Zenyatta faced this year? Life Is Sweet and who else? By my count Rachel has beaten the winners of the SA Derby, KY Derby, Belmont, Travers, Acorn, Test, Secretariat, Stephen Foster and Whitney while winning the G-I KY Oaks, Preakness, Mother Goose, Haskell and Woodward. Yep, she's faced a bunch of claimers all year while Zenyatta has faced the best available. You got me there. It's just a shame that she keeps running against these allowance and claiming horses. And those are only the G-I winners she has beaten - adding in the rest of the graded stakes winners would just get embarrassing.

Would RA have won the SA Derby, KY Derby, Belmont or Travers?
How well did RA fair time wise in the Preakness over the last three or five years?

If you think victory in SA Derby why no followup in Breeders Cup?
I'll give you that RA has done more than Zenyatta this year, but wouldn't it be great for the sport if they faced off?

The Breeders Cup awaits all.

Java Gold@TFT

09-14-2009, 06:50 PM

Would RA have won the SA Derby, KY Derby, Belmont or Travers?
How well did RA fair time wise in the Preakness over the last three or five years?

Her time in the Preakness was fast enough to beat the first 4 finishers in the KY Derby this year. Her times in every race have been fast enough to beat every horse who enterred the gate with her. Could she have won the Derby? Based on her performance on a track that Zenyatta couldn't run on the day before the Derby, I would say that yes she could have. I didn't say WOULD, I said COULD. Unfortunately her previous owner didn't even nominate her to the TC races so to suggest that she was ducking anything is just ludicrous. Jackson had to supplement her to the Preakness and even then other owners were so afraid of her getting in that they openly talked about conspiring to enter other horses to keep her out of the 14 eligible.

What is so difficult about admitting that the best horses in the country win G-I races? That is what our grading system is all about. Rachel has either won or beaten the winners of 13 G-I races this year. Every year people are eager to declare a great crop at the beginning of the year and then by the end of the year it is mediocre at best.

Wickel,Stardom Bound? Ha ha. Let's see her butt in the gate before there is any thought about her being anywhere near what she might have been. And Mine That Bird? One win since October of last year? Yep, he's a real threat every time he gets on the track.

FenceBored

09-14-2009, 06:50 PM

Would RA have won the SA Derby, KY Derby, Belmont or Travers?
How well did RA fair time wise in the Preakness over the last three or five years?

If you think victory in SA Derby why no followup in Breeders Cup?
I'll give you that RA has done more than Zenyatta this year, but wouldn't it be great for the sport if they faced off?

The Breeders Cup awaits all.

Mr. Avioli,

Mr. Jackson has already said no to this year's Breeders Cup on numerous occasions. Spending your evenings trolling message boards trying to get him to change his mind is unbecoming of a man of your stature, or at least should be.

Fencebored

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 06:57 PM

Mr. Avioli,

Mr. Jackson has already said no to this year's Breeders Cup on numerous occasions. Spending your evenings trolling message boards trying to get him to change his mind is unbecoming of a man of your stature, or at least should be.

Fencebored

Well it really doesn't matter. After the outcome of the Breeders Cup can people then claim that she would have won both the Distaff and the Classic?

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 07:02 PM

Her time in the Preakness was fast enough to beat the first 4 finishers in the KY Derby this year.

Her Preakness time was the slowest time of the past five years. This is indicative that she would have lost the Ky Derby, Belmont and Travers?

Jackson passed the Belmont, Travers, JCGC and BC Classic to protect Rachel Alexander from inevitable defeat. Jackson put RA on the side lines because there are no cream puff races left.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:09 PM

Mr. Avioli,

Mr. Jackson has already said no to this year's Breeders Cup on numerous occasions. Spending your evenings trolling message boards trying to get him to change his mind is unbecoming of a man of your stature, or at least should be.

Fencebored

I understand no to breeders cup but no to jcgc? The excuses get weaker with each race (though the bar was set pretty high with the travers excuse of kensei)

FenceBored

09-14-2009, 07:10 PM

I understand no to breeders cup but no to jcgc? The excuses get weaker with each race (though the bar was set pretty high with the travers excuse of kensei)

And how many JCGC did Ghostzapper run in?

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:13 PM

And how many JCGC did Ghostzapper run in?

Sorry I'm not taking the bait again. You bring up GZ, I respond then tucker comes making a joke bout how obsessed I am with a horse, been there done that.

Since they are passing on the BC there is absolutely no excuse for rachel to not be in the jcgc. She would even have an advantage being that the other top contenders would be using the race as a prep. And yet they are still scared.

Very telling

Java Gold@TFT

09-14-2009, 07:14 PM

And how many JCGC did Ghostzapper run in?
That would have meant running more than 4 times in one year. That would have been unacceptable.

Java Gold@TFT

09-14-2009, 07:22 PM

Her Preakness time was the slowest time of the past five years. This is indicative that she would have lost the Ky Derby, Belmont and Travers?

Jackson passed the Belmont, Travers, JCGC and BC Classic to protect Rachel Alexander from inevitable defeat. Jackson put RA on the side lines because there are no cream puff races left.
And your point is? The Woodward, Haskell and Preakness were all creampuff races? Jackson said where she would be well before entries were to be drawn. Horse like Quality Road and Summer Bird were nominated to the Woodward. they could have waited a week to face her. And after saying that she wouldn't race at SA since he bought her, jackson is somehow avoiding the daunting Zenyatta? The same Zenyatta who has raced 3 times this year against the creamiest of creampuff fields. She could have gone in the Hollywood Gold Cup - her stablemate Life Is Sweet did. She could have easily gone in the Pac Classic - no reason ever given for that. She still could go in the Goodwood instead of the Lady's Secret - same day, same track, same distance but Moss won't do that either. Who's protecting what?

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:22 PM

And yet they are still scared.And you know this how?

Scared of what exactly? All of the horses she has beaten already?

Very funny. I laughed again.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:27 PM

Horse like Quality Road and Summer Bird were nominated to the Woodward. they could have waited a week to face her.

Yes lets ask other horse to run in races with a smaller purse just to face rachel. Meanwhile jackson cannot just enter rachel, he has to get every purse increased just to run her. Nice logic there. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/45.gif

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:28 PM

And you know this how?

Scared of what exactly? All of the horses she has beaten already?

Very funny. I laughed again.

You can keep laughing but the laughing on the other end gets louder with each 10 furlong race that they pass on.

Deep down I think even you realize there's no excuse not to run her there.

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 07:29 PM

And your point is? The Woodward, Haskell and Preakness were all creampuff races? Jackson said where she would be well before entries were to be drawn. Horse like Quality Road and Summer Bird were nominated to the Woodward. they could have waited a week to face her. And after saying that she wouldn't race at SA since he bought her, jackson is somehow avoiding the daunting Zenyatta? The same Zenyatta who has raced 3 times this year against the creamiest of creampuff fields. She could have gone in the Hollywood Gold Cup - her stablemate Life Is Sweet did. She could have easily gone in the Pac Classic - no reason ever given for that. She still could go in the Goodwood instead of the Lady's Secret - same day, same track, same distance but Moss won't do that either. Who's protecting what?

Cream Puff Races: Mother Goose vs. Belmont, Woodward vs. Travers and
retirement vs. ( JCGC or BC Classic/Distaff)

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:30 PM

Yes lets ask other horse to run in races with a smaller purse just to face rachel. Meanwhile jackson cannot just enter rachel, he has to get every purse increased just to run her. Nice logic there. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/45.gifActually it's quite logical.

The men running these horses...they hurtin' for that extra quarter mil? Or are they looking for the glory? The glory that comes with beating the best.

Me thinks they might have been a little too "scared" to enter the Woodward. They chose the easy way out, like most horsemen do...

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:30 PM

Cream Puff Races: Mother Goose vs. Belmont, Woodward vs. Travers and
retirement vs. ( JCGC or BC Classic/Distaff)So now you're saying she's retired?

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 07:32 PM

So now you're saying she's retired?

Nit pick. You know what I mean. Retired for the year. No more Cream Puff races.

Quagmire

09-14-2009, 07:33 PM

So now you're saying she's retired?

Not just retired...it also sounds like she's in her stall with Jess Jackson cowering in fear of Quality Road and that extra 1/8th :lol:

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:33 PM

Deep down I think even you realize there's no excuse not to run her there.Let's see...she's got HOY locked up...she's still only a 3yo filly who has run a bunch of tough races this year....done things no other 3yo filly has ever done before.

Yup, no excuse...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Whatever happened to "don't squeeze the lemon dry?"

Whatever happened to all the people who were shouting that they were going to "KILL RACHEL" by running her back in the Preakness....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now you want to run her in the needless JCGC? Why? Is HOY in jeopardy?

What is the point? She's beaten EVERYONE...well, except Zenyatta, but she isn't a threat to HOY with her truly cream puff schedule to date....

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:34 PM

Actually it's quite logical.

The men running these horses...they hurtin' for that extra quarter mil? Or are they looking for the glory? The glory that comes with beating the best.

Me thinks they might have been a little too "scared" to enter the Woodward. They chose the easy way out, like most horsemen do...

You're probably right. The likes of street sense, bernardini, point given, etc were all scared of the woodward thats why they opted to run for MORE money in the travers that used to be the centerpiece race of the saratoga met but now the rachel group say its just another race. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:37 PM

You're probably right. The likes of street sense, bernardini, point given, etc were all scared of the woodward thats why they opted to run for MORE money in the travers that used to be the centerpiece race of the saratoga met but now the rachel group say its just another race. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gifWining the Travers did nothing for the winner...the consensus is that Rachel is still the best...that never changed....

So what good does winning the Travers do?

OR, are you NOW giving credence to the reason why Jackson ran Kensei instead of Rachel in the Travers? If you are, you can't have it both ways, no matter how much you wish you could.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:39 PM

Let's see...she's got HOY locked up...she's still only a 3yo filly who has run a bunch of tough races this year....done things no other 3yo filly has ever done before.

Yup, no excuse...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Whatever happened to "don't squeeze the lemon dry?"

Whatever happened to all the people who were shouting that they were going to "KILL RACHEL" by running her back in the Preakness....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now you want to run her in the needless JCGC? Why? Is HOY in jeopardy?

What is the point? She's beaten EVERYONE...well, except Zenyatta, but she isn't a threat to HOY with her truly cream puff schedule to date....

I also get a kick out of everyone that bitches and moans of early horse retirements and how the game isn't what is used to be. It's opinions like yours that are ruining this sport.

Now you are defending keeping a perfectly healthy horse on the sidelines for the entire championship season.

Clearly affirmed and secretariat proved everything by august of their 3yo. They both should have either been retired or put away for the rest of the year.

So the travers is just another race and the jcgc is needless. Some people will say anything....

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:41 PM

Wining the Travers did nothing for the winner...the consensus is that Rachel is still the best...that never changed....

So what good does winning the Travers do?

Seriously I have to make this quote part of my signature. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:42 PM

I also get a kick out of everyone that bitches and moans of early horse retirements and how the game isn't what is used to be. It's opinions like yours that are ruining this sport.

Now you are defending keeping a perfectly healthy horse on the sidelines for the entire championship season.

Clearly affirmed and secretariat proved everything by august of their 3yo. They both should have either been retired or put away for the rest of the year.

So the travers is just another race and the jcgc is needless. Some people will say anything....I'm one who CONSISTENTLY has deferred to the people who work HANDS ON with the horse on a daily basis.

I know they know better than ME or YOU whether or not she is "perfectly healthy" and should be run in every race from now until December.

What point is it exactly you are trying to make again in all of this? That Rachel stinks? She's overrated?

Whatever man...keep tilting...

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 07:45 PM

Seriously I have to make this quote part of my signature. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gifTell me what good winning the Travers did for Summer Bird...over beating Rachel in the Woodward?

If Summer Bird beats Rachel in the Woodward, that gives him a huge claim to Horse of the Year honors.

Instead, he's still referred to as "the Belmont and Travers winner that Rachel thrashed in the Haskell, over a surface Summer Bird clearly enjoys (off track)."

So please, explain it to me so that I may have a signature of my own....

But be careful...if you delve into the "majesty of the Travers...the fact that it looks better on a stallion's resume come breeding time" you'll be seriously contradicting all the criticism you threw at team Jackson when they opted to run Kensei over Rachel in the Travers for the VERY REASON you're apt to bring up in your next rapid-fire reply.

Imriledup

09-14-2009, 07:50 PM

If Zenyatta needs a 'field of horses' to 'soften up' rachel, doesn't that mean rachel is better?

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:53 PM

Tell me what good winning the Travers did for Summer Bird...over beating Rachel in the Woodward?

If Summer Bird beats Rachel in the Woodward, that gives him a huge claim to Horse of the Year honors.

Instead, he's still referred to as "the Belmont and Travers winner that Rachel thrashed in the Haskell, over a surface Summer Bird clearly enjoys (off track)."

So please, explain it to me so that I may have a signature of my own....

But be careful...if you delve into the "majesty of the Travers...the fact that it looks better on a stallion's resume come breeding time" you'll be seriously contradicting all the criticism you threw at team Jackson when they opted to run Kensei over Rachel in the Travers for the VERY REASON you're apt to bring up in your next rapid-fire reply.

Summer bird would have a hard time beating rachel at 9 furlongs but I think he can at 10 furlongs. So again I ask you why would Summer Bird run at a distance less suitable to him a week later for less money? Not every decision on where a horse runs should be based on "will this help my HOY chances"

All you have to reply with is "why would rachel run against summer bird a week earlier at a distance LESS suitable" for her and that would end the debate. It would also save your reputation because so far we've gotten:

Winning the travers does nothing
JCGC is needless.

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 07:54 PM

Now you want to run her in the needless JCGC? Why? Is HOY in jeopardy?

Now you sound like the Artful Dodger Jackson.

After the Woodward his line was that RA was not at her best and that she was a little tired before the race.

Truthful statement or excuse.
Excuse: to justify close finish in Woodward?
Truthful: Why would Asmussen and Jackson let her run?

JCGC is not a cream puff race. Jackson can't even consider running RA after unexpected tough going in the Woodward.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 07:56 PM

OR, are you NOW giving credence to the reason why Jackson ran Kensei instead of Rachel in the Travers? If you are, you can't have it both ways, no matter how much you wish you could.

Why can't I have it both ways (cue the immature tucker joke) when the rachel fans can by using Quality Road's finish in the travers as proof he wasn't a threat before the race and yet ignore Kensei's poor showing when giving the excuse that rachel shouldn't run so kensi can win it?

46zilzal

09-14-2009, 07:59 PM

Why can't I have it both ways (que the immature tucker joke) when the rachel fans can by using Quality Road's finish in the travers as proof he wasn't a threat before the race and yet ignore Kensei's poor showing when giving the excuse that rachel shouldn't run so kensi can win it?
ONE race from a layoff three year old means little.

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:01 PM

It would also save your reputationReputation? Dude, I'm fairly anonymous even after 10 years of doing this. Obviously, I'm not in this for "glory" or "reputation." But you made me laugh, so that is good.

Again, I ask...why did Summer Bird run in the Travers against his own kind, when he could have shown his vast strengths and abilities while not only beating OLDER MALES, but also the horse most consider the best around at the moment?

It's a no brainer, is it not? He was already BEATEN by Rachel. It's up to his connections now to find HER and beat HER.

I suppose they were scared of getting beaten again, and figured they'd go for the easier money and the better stallion resume (ahem...the same reason Jackson used for running Kensei over Rachel in the Travers...stallion reputation....something Rachel can't have...but a reason you yourself scoffed at, but now for some reason seem to be endorsing in the case of Summer Bird).

I get it...you're a hypocrite. That's ok, we all do it sometimes.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:03 PM

Reputation? Dude, I'm fairly anonymous even after 10 years of doing this. Obviously, I'm not in this for "glory" or "reputation." But you made me laugh, so that is good.

Again, I ask...why did Summer Bird run in the Travers against his own kind, when he could have shown his vast strengths and abilities while not only beating OLDER MALES, but also the horse most consider the best around at the moment?

It's a no brainer, is it not? He was already BEATEN by Rachel. It's up to his connections now to find HER and beat HER.

I suppose they were they scared of getting beaten again, and figured they'd go for the easier money and the better stallion resume (ahem...the same reason Jackson used for running Kensei over Rachel in the Travers...but a reason you yourself scoffed at, but now for some reason seem to be endorsing in the case of Summer Bird).

I get it...you're a hypocrite. That's ok, we all do it sometimes.

So clearly you're goal now is just to ignore my replies and keep repeating yourself. Yes keep believing the braver decision was to run in the cheaper woodward against the weakest handicap horses in at least 4-5 years.

October 3rd. Summer bird and quality road will be there. Will rachel?

46zilzal

09-14-2009, 08:05 PM

So clearly you're goal now is just to ignore my replies and keep repeating yourself. Yes keep believing the braver decision was to run in the cheaper Woodward against the weakest handicap horses in at least 4-5 years.

October 3rd. Summer bird and quality road will be there. Will Rachel?
Connections would be very wise to keep the filly on the shelf at that distance against those late and early movers respectively.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:06 PM

Reputation? Dude, I'm fairly anonymous even after 10 years of doing this. Obviously, I'm not in this for "glory" or "reputation." But you made me laugh, so that is good.

Well as president of the nyra fan club I got you to admit on record that the travers and jcgc are both meaningless afterthoughts

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:07 PM

Connections would be very wise to keep the filly on the shelf at that distance against those late and early movers respectively.

I agree and that's what I've been saying since june. They know her limits and are scheduling accordingly

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:07 PM

So clearly you're goal now is just to ignore my replies and keep repeating yourself.I will repeat myself until I get a reasonable answer. Running in the Travers (against what they now call a mediocre crop of 3yo males) over waiting a week and beating the best horse around seems like a waste of time.

I'm waiting for you to clearly define for me the reason why it was best for Summer Bird's reputation to run in the Travers over trying to get even with Rachel in the Woodward (and beating older males at the same time).

It's not like the Woodward is devoid of history and it's share of memorable winners.

Lay it out on the line for me. Take me to school buddy. But be careful as I said above...you don't want to be a hypocrite, do you?

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 08:08 PM

Reputation? Dude, I'm fairly anonymous even after 10 years of doing this. Obviously, I'm not in this for "glory" or "reputation." But you made me laugh, so that is good.

Again, I ask...why did Summer Bird run in the Travers against his own kind, when he could have shown his vast strengths and abilities while not only beating OLDER MALES, but also the horse most consider the best around at the moment?

It's a no brainer, is it not? He was already BEATEN by Rachel. It's up to his connections now to find HER and beat HER.

I suppose they were scared of getting beaten again, and figured they'd go for the easier money and the better stallion resume (ahem...the same reason Jackson used for running Kensei over Rachel in the Travers...stallion reputation....something Rachel can't have...but a reason you yourself scoffed at, but now for some reason seem to be endorsing in the case of Summer Bird).

I get it...you're a hypocrite. That's ok, we all do it sometimes.

What quality 3Yr old connections would pass the Travers for the Woodward?

RA was supposedly under serious consideration for the Travers? :lol: :lol:

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:10 PM

Well as president of the nyra fan club I got you to admit on record that the travers and jcgc are both meaningless afterthoughtsNope...never said such a thing. A quick look at the transcript shows I said the JCGC was "meaningless" at this point. HOY is locked up.

She's beaten the caliber of older males and 3yo males she would likely face in the JCGC. It's meaningless TO HER...she's already "been there, done that."

And if she's "tired" as Jackson says, then that just compounds the "meaningless" of it all...

I never said the races themselves were meaningless afterthoughts. To most horses, they are very important events.

But not to the top dog who has already conquered all comers.

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:12 PM

What quality 3Yr old connections would pass the Travers for the Woodward?

RA was supposedly under serious consideration for the Travers? :lol: :lol:Connections who want to be seriously thought of as the best in the land. When you want to be the best, you have to BEAT the best.

Beating a "flash in the pan" (like 46 likes to term them) like Quality Road does nothing for Summer Bird.

Now, beating Rachel in the Woodward would have elevated Summer Bird a helluva lot more than the Travers victory did....

Or do you deny this reality as well?

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:14 PM

I will repeat myself until I get a reasonable answer. Running in the Travers (against what they now call a mediocre crop of 3yo males) over waiting a week and beating the best horse around seems like a waste of time.

I'm waiting for you to clearly define for me the reason why it was best for Summer Bird's reputation to run in the Travers over trying to get even with Rachel in the Woodward (and beating older males at the same time).

It's not like the Woodward is devoid of history and it's share of memorable winners.

Lay it out on the line for me. Take me to school buddy. But be careful as I said above...you don't want to be a hypocrite, do you?

I already gave you the answer, if it's not reasonable in your mind there's nothing I can do. The distance and purse were a better suit for Summer Bird. That is why he will be there october 3rd. Will the HOY show?

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:18 PM

Connections who want to be seriously thought of as the best in the land. When you want to be the best, you have to BEAT the best.

Beating a "flash in the pan" (like 46 likes to term them) like Quality Road does nothing for Summer Bird.

Now, beating Rachel in the Woodward would have elevated Summer Bird a helluva lot more than the Travers victory did....

Or do you deny this reality as well?

It is the sign of a good debater who can argue a point no matter how ridiculous it seems. You believe Ice should have sent Summer Bird to the woodward to run for less money at a distance less suitable to him just to get in contention for HOY when he had only won 2 races all year at the time, one of them being a maiden.

He will be there october 3rd to "take on all comers"

And who will be coming?

46zilzal

09-14-2009, 08:19 PM

Real class acts are never afraid of competition. When Ted Williams was batting just over 400 the last time it was approached, his coach suggested that he sit out the last two games to insure that he would end the year above 400.

He refused, went into those last two games and INCREASED his batting average.

Moves like this make legends, legends and 'flashes in the pan" in that same category.

If this filly were in my barn, I would sneak in the back door just like they are doing and win by default running away with the real challenges ahead.

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:22 PM

Ghostyapper doesn't hate her. In fact, he thinks she's quite good.

What he hates are those who like her a whole bunch....:lol:

He doesn't enjoy it when humans act like humans and go a little overboard when they see something or someone who excites them, or inspires them, or reminds them of why they love a certain sport....

He wants everyone to act like machines...dry...soulless...machines....must be 100% correct all of the time...marching to the same, boring, soulless beat....

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:23 PM

He will be there october 3rd to "take on all comers"

And who will be coming?This is an appropriate description for the actual leader of the pack.

Are you stating here that Summer Bird is the top dog in horse racing?

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:26 PM

If this filly were in my barn, I would sneak in the back door just like they are doing and win by default running away with the real challenges ahead.What exactly are the real challenges ahead?

Beat the best 3yo fillies? CHECK
Beat the best 3yo males? CHECK
Beat the best older males? CHECK

I guess she hasn't beaten the best older females, but I think she gets a pass since the connections chose the greater challenge of beating 3yo males and older males instead.

So please, enlighten me as to the vast challenges she is ducking...

As Big Mac once said, you cannot be serious.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:27 PM

It is hilarious the posts you cherry pick to "warn" about name calling. They always happen to be people who share your opinion on the subject.

I and others have been called much worse by the rachel cheer leaders that conveniently went unnoticed.

Absolutely not true. And I have proof.

Exactly what I thought. A simple "knuckhead" comment directed at no 1 doesn't go unnoticed and receives a warning. However when someone directly calls someone else an ahole or a fool that is perfectly fine.

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:31 PM

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 08:32 PM

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:34 PM

You actually used the word reality.:lol: :lol:You're not helping your cause with such a vacuous retort.

FenceBored

09-14-2009, 08:35 PM

Sorry I'm not taking the bait again. You bring up GZ, I respond then tucker comes making a joke bout how obsessed I am with a horse, been there done that.

Since they are passing on the BC there is absolutely no excuse for rachel to not be in the jcgc. She would even have an advantage being that the other top contenders would be using the race as a prep. And yet they are still scared.

Very telling

Work tab for Rachel Alexandra from Nov 20, 2008 - Feb 15, 2009

25Nov08 CD 4f sy :48 0/5 B 1/34
29Nov08 Raced
28Dec08 OP 4f gd :41 3/5 B 14/74
04Jan09 OP 5f ft 1:03 0/5 B 9/89
11Jan09 OP 5f ft 1:02 0/5 B 1/65
22Jan09 OP 4f ft 0:47 4/5 B 2/30
01Feb09 OP 5f ft 1:04 1/5 B 56/82
11Feb09 OP 4f ft 0:49 4/5 B 7/15
15Feb09 Raced

That was her 2 and a half month 'layoff' from the end of Nov to mid-Feb. She's been in training for better than a year straight. Now's as good a time as any for a couple of months of actually being off.

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 08:37 PM

You're not helping your cause with such a vacuous retort.

:lol:

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:37 PM

I just ran a search on ahole in this thread, and the only post that comes up is yours. Point me to the offending post, and I'll remove it immediately, as I always do...

I suppose I let myself get too caught up in my little back and forth with you and one slipped by....maybe you'd like a refund of your registration fee as payback? :lol:

I guess you're right since it's a free site we should expect biased moderation.

It's you're place you can moderate it as you please but don't pretend for a second that you're objective. Cause that would be the real joke in this thread http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

And I wouldn't expect you to be able to find the violating post in this thread. The same poster has done it the last month conveniently unnoticed.

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:43 PM

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:44 PM

Work tab for Rachel Alexandra from Nov 20, 2008 - Feb 15, 2009

25Nov08 CD 4f sy :48 0/5 B 1/34
29Nov08 Raced
28Dec08 OP 4f gd :41 3/5 B 14/74
04Jan09 OP 5f ft 1:03 0/5 B 9/89
11Jan09 OP 5f ft 1:02 0/5 B 1/65
22Jan09 OP 4f ft 0:47 4/5 B 2/30
01Feb09 OP 5f ft 1:04 1/5 B 56/82
11Feb09 OP 4f ft 0:49 4/5 B 7/15
15Feb09 Raced

That was her 2 and a half month 'layoff' from the end of Nov to mid-Feb. She's been in training for better than a year straight. Now's as good a time as any for a couple of months of actually being off.

It's hilarious how before the woodward no 1 even thought of it being rachels last start. Now it seems so obvious that it should be her last start.

A 2 month layoff would suffice at the end of the year but lets give rachel 4-5 months instead.
I guess we'll have to wait till next year for a new batch of excuses on why she should pass whenever a 10 furlong race comes around.

ghostyapper

09-14-2009, 08:51 PM

Ghostyapper, I thought you were above all this whining and crying...oh well, guess I'm wrong again...let me go search out that offending comment that has you shitting the bed. It was so offensive, it not only got by me, but the two other guys who moderate here...I guess they're biased as well...

And don't pretend for a moment that your hardon for me hasn't gone unnoticed for ages now....again, where should I send that refund check?

We've had differences of opinions of the sport recently but it's pretty egotistical for you to suggest that it's because I have a "hardon" for you.

And if thats how you choose to deal with the whole moderation exposure thing by brushing it under the rug and claim that I'm "shitting the bed" then so be it.

I know how it works here but I think you in your TOS you should list that posters who share your opinion will be given much more leeway in bending the tos than others this way new members don't get blindsided.

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 08:53 PM

Look, if you want to sign on as a moderator, I'll seriously consider it, as you seem to be pretty good at picking up stuff.

I need all the help I can get around here, as you have rightly pointed out already.

I must ask again though, are you calling my two other moderators who missed the comment (the one I just found and deleted) biased as well?

They have the full power to edit and delete threads, the same as I. So, either we all missed something that was PRETTY OBSCURE, or you're just busting balls again because of your hard on.

From the urban dictionary:

hard on -- The uncontrolable urge to get even with someone.
"You better watch your step, that guy has a hard on for you."

PaceAdvantage

09-14-2009, 09:05 PM

this way new members don't get blindsided.Have no fear. I never allow any legitimate new members to be blindsided...I'm very protective, no matter their opinion.

rokitman

09-14-2009, 09:07 PM

bks

09-14-2009, 09:20 PM

So much for how Zenyatta would have run in the Woodward. :)

PaceAdvantage wrote:

Beat the best older males? CHECK

Arguably. The older males are weak, and she hasn't faced Einstein.

Since I think Rachel should have been pointed for the Breeders Cup, I hope Zenyatta wins the Lady's Secret in a cantor and wins the BC Classic by, say, two lengths.

Under those circumstances, Rachel is still HOY (winning the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell and Woodward without a loss mixed in shouldn't be diminished), but it couldn't be said she's a better horse than Zenyatta.

DRIVEWAY

09-14-2009, 09:35 PM

So much for how Zenyatta would have run in the Woodward. :)

Arguably. The older males are weak, and she hasn't faced Einstein.

Since I think Rachel should have been pointed for the Breeders Cup, I hope Zenyatta wins the Lady's Secret in a cantor and wins the BC Classic by, say, two lengths.

Under those circumstances, Rachel is still HOY (winning the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell and Woodward without a loss mixed in shouldn't be diminished), but it couldn't be said she's a better horse than Zenyatta.

Zenyatta in Classic at home track Santa Anita draws major wagering activity. Hope she runs. There will be plenty of value in the race. Euro's, MTB, Einstein, Macho Again and Summer Bird make for some serious options.

FenceBored

09-14-2009, 09:55 PM

It's hilarious how before the woodward no 1 even thought of it being rachels last start. Now it seems so obvious that it should be her last start.

A 2 month layoff would suffice at the end of the year but lets give rachel 4-5 months instead.
I guess we'll have to wait till next year for a new batch of excuses on why she should pass whenever a 10 furlong race comes around.

Yeah, it's hilarious the way they been spreading out her races. There were 6 weeks between the Preakness and Mother Goose, 5 weeks between the Mother Goose and Haskell, 5 weeks between the Haskell and Woodward. It's almost like they knew she needed a rest, but didn't want to stop till they had HOY wrapped up tight, or they couldn't put it off anymore, whichever came first. Now she has HOY wrapped up, and now she gets a rest.

Imriledup

09-14-2009, 10:19 PM

Cratos

09-14-2009, 10:33 PM

Interested in opinions of where people think Zenyatta have finished in the Woodward this year, and why?

Wish this didn't have to be speculated about, but it's not the horse's fault for the way she's handled.

Thx.

In past posts I had said if Rachel brought her “A” game, Zenyattta would find the goings very tough. I still stick by that assertion, but my conviction is nowhere near as firm after analyzing both fillies 1-1/8 mile efforts.

Rachel @ 1-1/8 Miles

Woodward: 1m in 1:35.48, closed the last 1/8th mile in 12.81 seconds
Haskell: 1m in 1:34.29, closed the last 1/8th mile in 12.92 seconds
Mother Goose: 1m in 1:33.60, closed the last 1/8th mile in 12.73 seconds

Zenyatta @ 1-1/8 Miles

BC Ladies Classic: 1m in 1:35.12, closed the last 1/8th mile in 11.73 seconds
Vanity Hcp: 1m in 1:35.97, closed the last 1/8th mile in 13.54 seconds

If we assume that the BC Ladies Classic was Zenyatta’s “A” game and the Mother Goose was Rachel’s “A” game then I see the Woodward a lot closer at the end than I would have expected.

If Zenyatta was in the Woodward and that is a very big “if” and if (another big “if”) the race was run like it was, in my opinion Zenyatta wins because as someone said in another post, the race would been set up just right for her big kick at the end. However if Zenyatta was in the Mother Goose (I realize it is for 3yo fillies) she loses.

I realize the cynics will say that you are mixing “apples and oranges” in that Rachel runs on dirt and Zenyatta runs on the poly surface.

What I say to that is the poster who started this thread did say “hypothetically” and that makes all reasonable assumptions valid.

DanG

09-14-2009, 11:27 PM

If this filly were in my barn, I would sneak in the back door just like they are doing and win by default running away with the real challenges ahead.
I’m speechless after reading this, but I just had to quote it remind myself it was actually written. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Back to the original thread and planet earth…

It’s a great question and the connections of Zenyatta have to be playing ‘what if. You couldn’t get a better set up in terms of pace, RA’s pre race demeanor and hard campaign to take your best shot. That window may have closed but I would wager they would admit it was an opportunity lost.

To all those who think Zenyatta would have been well back because of a misconception (or bizarre grudge) about her quality…she would have been coming like a freight train, but I can’t honestly say Rachel wouldn’t have out gamed her like she did the Whitney and Stephen Foster winner.

rokitman

09-15-2009, 08:09 AM

No imaginary wins for Zenyatta. She would have been cooked just trying to stay within 20 lengths of RA in the early stages of that race. That was no artificial race that you only race hard the last 3/8ths of a mile. That was a real race.

classhandicapper

09-15-2009, 11:09 AM

Java Gold@TFT

09-15-2009, 11:28 AM

I think the Zenyatta camp missed a golden opportunity in the Woodward, but I can't confidently say she would have won even given the pace scenario.

Does anyone actually know if she's going to run in the Ladies Classic or Breeder's Cup Classic?

I think she would have a pretty good shot against the best US males because IMO they are not an especially strong group. But there almost has to be a few excellent Europeans shipping in for the Classic because of what happened last year. That overall field is likely to be WAY stronger than the Woodward. If they want to keep her undefeated, that's going to be a very difficult decision.
She is already ducking her best opportunity next month to show what she has against males. In the last 2 years every one of her races have been at 1 1/16th or 1 1/8th miles, all but one on synthetic in California. She is prepping for a BC engagement without defining Friday or Saturday. She wants the proper spacing between her prep and the BC so she is racing on Oct 3. She wants the poly. She wants the race over the track. She has everything she could possibly want but the race is called the Goodwood. That would mean racing against males including possibly the winners of the Pac Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, KY Derby along with Einstein and Colonel John and others.

People can say what they want about Rachel and the Woodward field but she beat the horses who won the Stephen Foster (over Einstein) and Whitney. She has also already beaten the KY Derby winner. If Zenyatta's owner actually wanted a sporting challenge, instead of the usual group of suspects then he would go to the Goodwood and not the Lady's Secret. She has her chance - Jackson took it at Saratoga to show a 3yo filly could beat G-I stakes winning older males but Moss won't let Zenyatta's "streak" be challenged in the Goodwood. So far it sets up perfectly for her. She can run eyeball to eyeball with MTB down the backstrecth and then see if any of them can make up the lost gorund in the stretch.

Show some balls Mr. Moss and step up to the Goodwood since you ducked the Pac Classic and Hollywood Gold Cup already this summer.

andymays

09-15-2009, 11:33 AM

Just my 2 cents.

The argument isn't really about the two great Runners it's about the owners and their decisions.

Particularly the dislike for Jackson because of his decision not to go to the Breeders Cup! I applaud Jackson and his decision and the Moss camp has every right to do whatever the hell they want. :ThmbUp:

The matchup aint gonna happen but if it did it would be great.

GaryG

09-15-2009, 11:37 AM

If Moss wants Zenyatta to retire undefeated, and I am pretty sure that he does, he will stay as far away from RA as possible. There will be no confrontation. Seems like Z has gotten a lot of support by the hate Jackson and Asmussen crowd.

PaceAdvantage

09-15-2009, 11:37 AM

She has also already beaten the KY Derby winner.And the Belmont winner, and the Travers winner. (sorry, just had to)

Java Gold@TFT

09-15-2009, 11:54 AM

And the Belmont winner, and the Travers winner. (sorry, just had to)
I know but I was just refering to the potential lineup in the Goodwood including the Derby winner. Zenyatta hasn't proven that she can beat him yet at 1 3/16th miles. ;)

Cratos

09-15-2009, 12:47 PM

Yeah, it's hilarious the way they been spreading out her races. There were 6 weeks between the Preakness and Mother Goose, 5 weeks between the Mother Goose and Haskell, 5 weeks between the Haskell and Woodward. It's almost like they knew she needed a rest, but didn't want to stop till they had HOY wrapped up tight, or they couldn't put it off anymore, whichever came first. Now she has HOY wrapped up, and now she gets a rest.

If Summer Bird runs and wins the BC Classic he will win both 3yo of the year and Horse of the Year.

Java Gold@TFT

09-15-2009, 12:51 PM

If Summer Bird runs and wins the BC Classic he will win both 3yo of the year and Horse of the Year.
I'll take that bet if you are booking any action. Put me in for your limit.

09-15-2009, 02:22 PM

If Summer Bird runs and wins the BC Classic he will win both 3yo of the year and Horse of the Year.

Extremely unlikely, both that he wins and even more so that he would win the two awards.

PaceAdvantage

09-15-2009, 07:28 PM

ghostyapper

09-15-2009, 08:15 PM

He would definitely win 3yo of the year....3yo MALE that is...

HOY is all locked up....

If Summer Bird wanted a shot at HOY, his connections should have taken on the filly in the Woodward.

You can't be HOY if you've been beaten by a 3yo filly...especially a 3yo filly who most consider the best.

Not only terrible logic but flat out wrong. Curlin had little trouble winning HOY after getting beaten by a 3yo filly. And save the "rachel is so much better than rags to riches" because you simply said that losing to a 3yo filly disqualifies you from HOY.

And basing everything off a 1 race H2H when it comes to HOY is flat out wrong too otherwise Perfect Drift should have won it over mineshaft in 03 and rock hard ten over st. liam in 05.

Cratos

09-15-2009, 08:34 PM

Extremely unlikely, both that he wins and even more so that he would win the two awards.

Take a look at some of the other forums on the Internet and you might find a different sentiment about Rachel and to be truthful I was surprised.

However the voters for the Eclipse Awards represent the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, The Daily Racing Form and the National Turf Writers Association and these three groups by no means spawns homogeneity.

Should Rachel win? Yes, she should if I was voting because I believe HOY should be for “that” year and the contributions made to racing during “that” year. But there are grumblings about the Breeders’ Cup that is unsettling at this time.

PaceAdvantage

09-16-2009, 02:05 AM

Not only terrible logic but flat out wrong. Curlin had little trouble winning HOY after getting beaten by a 3yo filly. And save the "rachel is so much better than rags to riches" because you simply said that losing to a 3yo filly disqualifies you from HOY.

And basing everything off a 1 race H2H when it comes to HOY is flat out wrong too otherwise Perfect Drift should have won it over mineshaft in 03 and rock hard ten over st. liam in 05.Allow me to correct myself then. Losing to a 3yo filly by itself won't disqualify you from HOY. Which is precisely why I added "...especially a 3yo filly who most consider the best," which you conveniently forgot to quote above.

It's interesting in your most recent reply to me that you neglect to acknowledge that in addition to RA being a 3yo filly, she is also considered by most to be the BEST horse racing at the moment. Something that was never bestowed on Rags to Riches even after she beat Curlin....therein lies one very LARGE difference.

Talk about terrible logic...back to the woodshed you go...

PaceAdvantage

09-16-2009, 02:15 AM

Bottom line....3yo males win the Belmont Stakes almost every year...yawn...3yo males win the Travers every year...yawn again...

3yo fillies never win the Preakness (beating the Derby Winner), or the Haskell (beating the Belmont winner and eventual Travers winner), or the Woodward (beating some of the best older horses this year can provide), let alone all in the same year.

That's why RA has HOY locked up. End of story.

Not only is she a great 3yo filly, but she made history multiple times in 2009.

No other horse can lay claim to that kind of magic in 2009. No other horse has captured public attention and held onto it for this long this year like Rachel.

And that's why it's a done deal, no matter who wins the BC Classic over fake dirt, and no matter how many Euros Gio Ponti beats on the turf (which he most likely won't anyway).

That's logic. Iron clad, undeniable, unbeatable logic.

joanied

09-17-2009, 02:48 PM

46zilzal

09-17-2009, 03:26 PM

09-17-2009, 05:22 PM

Having voted in the Sovereign awards now for two years NOTHING is locked up in September .....NOTHING. Year end means simply that and one does not know what lies ahead for any of the horses in the running.

What do the Sovereign awards have to do with Horse of the Year in this country? Umm, wait, I know...NOTHING. I realize this was just your way to try to come across as important, good for you. Vote well, but Horse of the Year is done in this country.

joanied

09-17-2009, 05:26 PM

What do the Sovereign awards have to do with Horse of the Year in this country? Umm, wait, I know...NOTHING. I realize this was just your way to try to come across as important, good for you. Vote well, but Horse of the Year is done in this country.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

TiznowfaninNY

09-17-2009, 10:11 PM

PaceAdvantage

09-18-2009, 02:00 AM

Having voted in the Sovereign awards now for two years NOTHING is locked up in September .....NOTHING. Year end means simply that and one does not know what lies ahead for any of the horses in the running.But, this year, it's already locked up.

You of all people should know that everything changes...including what you perceive to be some unwritten rule that NOTHING is locked up in September.

This one is locked up...iron clad...guaranteed.

There is nothing any horse can do between now and November to pry HOY from the connections of Rachel Alexandra. Absolutely nothing.

First, they can't beat her, since she is finished for the year. And she's beaten everyone of importance other than Zenyatta.

Second, Zenyatta has done NOTHING this year to even allow her to sniff at HOY. If she wins the Distaff, it makes absolutely no difference. And, should her connections decide to run in the Classic (which they will not do because THEY realize HOY is out of reach, thus why take the risk?), she probably won't win...and even if she does, so what? Rachel has already been there, done that (beaten older Males in a Grade 1 race...on the dirt no less).

So there you have it...take it to the bank...as far as HOY goes, nothing, I repeat NOTHING can touch Rachel Alexandra

But, if you want to paint a scenario where things get a little interesting, if Summer Bird were to win the JCGC and the Breeders' Cup, THEN I might see where the vote becomes close. You can't deny that a colt who wins the Belmont, Travers, JCGC and Breeders' Cup classic has a serious claim to HOY.

Then it comes down to the fact that Rachel beat Summer Bird in their only meeting and Summer Bird ducked Rachel in the Woodward when he could have possibly evened the score. Of course there's the intangibles such as Rachel being a 3yo filly who jumped OUTSIDE her division in the Preakness and the Haskell, and jumped WAY OUTSIDE her division in the Woodward.

So, once again, even in the event Summer Bird runs the table the rest of the year, Rachel still has the upper hand.

Like I said...IRON CLAD baby....:lol:

Imriledup

09-18-2009, 02:11 AM

But, this year, it's already locked up.

You of all people should know that everything changes...including what you perceive to be some unwritten rule that NOTHING is locked up in September.

This one is locked up...iron clad...guaranteed.

There is nothing any horse can do between now and November to pry HOY from the connections of Rachel Alexandra. Absolutely nothing.

First, they can't beat her, since she is finished for the year. And she's beaten everyone of importance other than Zenyatta.

Second, Zenyatta has done NOTHING this year to even allow her to sniff at HOY. If she wins the Distaff, it makes absolutely no difference. And, should her connections decide to run in the Classic (which they will not do because THEY realize HOY is out of reach, thus why take the risk?), she probably won't win...and even if she does, so what? Rachel has already been there, done that (beaten older Males in a Grade 1 race...on the dirt no less).

So there you have it...take it to the bank...as far as HOY goes, nothing, I repeat NOTHING can touch Rachel Alexandra

But, if you want to paint a scenario where things get a little interesting, if Summer Bird were to win the JCGC and the Breeders' Cup, THEN I might see where the vote becomes close. You can't deny that a colt who wins the Belmont, Travers, JCGC and Breeders' Cup classic has a serious claim to HOY.

Then it comes down to the fact that Rachel beat Summer Bird in their only meeting and Summer Bird ducked Rachel in the Woodward when he could have possibly evened the score. Of course there's the intangibles such as Rachel being a 3yo filly who jumped OUTSIDE her division in the Preakness and the Haskell, and jumped WAY OUTSIDE her division in the Woodward.

So, once again, even in the event Summer Bird runs the table the rest of the year, Rachel still has the upper hand.

Like I said...IRON CLAD baby....:lol:

Wasnt' that Zenyatta who swept the field in the Pacific Classic with Mike smith and got up to nail Einstein? My memory was cloudy on this, i know Mike Smith won the race and he won it sweeping wide from far back.........i'm putting two and two together and figuring that must have been Zenyatta.

Right?

Java Gold@TFT

09-18-2009, 06:35 AM

Wasnt' that Zenyatta who swept the field in the Pacific Classic with Mike smith and got up to nail Einstein? My memory was cloudy on this, i know Mike Smith won the race and he won it sweeping wide from far back.........i'm putting two and two together and figuring that must have been Zenyatta.

Right?
You must have missed it. Team Zenyatta decided to give her a breather and since she has never raced at farther than 9F they decided to skip Del Mar (Pac Classic was 10F) so they could get a good BC prep at SA. So they found the perfect race - 10/3 (right spacing leading to the BC), 1 1/8th miles (her optimum distance), Santa Anita (the poly home of the BC and her biggest wins), weight for age, Grade-I - basically everything they could ask for in her run for HOY. It's called the Goodwood Stakes and I'm sure you will see her there. :D