More health care follies tonight

[ArlJim78]

some excerpts from Obama's speech tonight.

"more will die if we do nothing..."

"the deficit will grow..more families will go bankrupt..more businesses will close"

"our system is at the breaking point"

"the time for games has passed"



wait for it, the icing on the cake?

"Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics...":lol:

this guy is so full of it I'm starting to look forward to his speeches for the sheer entertainment value and general hilarity. he has no clue.

[DJofSD]

Will he come right out and tell the dissenters they're opinions don't count?

I understand that the Speaker of the House will introduce a bill to have a government sponsered single payer system dispite what BO says he wants.

CNBC is reporting there'll be a huge lay off in the industry is there's a reform.

[Tom]

I just tuned in for a couple of seconds - Obama was standing at the podium and Biden and Pelosi were behind him.

I could feel the thoughts in my brain being sucked out!:eek:
Nature abhors a vacuum and there is precious little intelligence in that room tonight.

I am hoping for an earthquake, a comet, rouge lightening - that will solve most of our problems! Most all of our problems are caused by that collection of bottom feeding scoundrels. The dregs of society. Where farts go after you let them out.

[Rookies]

Always interesting to see who's in power and who ain't !

The stone faced, grim reaper stiffs on the right show it perfectly.

[ArlJim78]

"We've seen the same partisan bickering and scare tactics and too many scored short term political points.
Now is the season for action.
We must bring the best ideas of both parties together"

this is the same guy who held a meeting with republicans in April and to their concerns basically said "I Won".

this is also the guy who just recently said he didn't want to hear anthing from those who he says screwed things up over the past 8 years.

what a model of bipartisanship he is. to him bipartisanship is when you bow your head and agree with him.

[ArlJim78]

Always interesting to see who's in power and who ain't !

The stone faced, grim reaper stiffs on the right show it perfectly.
stonefaced grim reaper?

Harry Reid?

[Rookies]

"It's a lie" (by the yellers and screamers).

[ArlJim78]

we need to hold insurance companies accountable, by turning it over to our unaccountable government watchdogs. yeah that should work.

[Show Me the Wire]

The DU folk have it right. Obama sold them out to the insurance companies. Making people buy insurance is not health care reform. It is profiteering. Rock on Obama. :mad:

[Show Me the Wire]

You want reform Obama take the profit out of health care. All hospitals must be not-for-profit organizations and health insurance companies have to be regulated. Make them subject to rate making like the utility companies used to be regulated, with a return rate of .02 of their overhead.

Now that is reform you can believe in.

[Tom]

Whatever he says, get it in writing. He lies, you know.
On second thought, we have the constitution in writing and he ignores that.

Screw him - he is is a POS and cannot be believed or supported.

[ArlJim78]

wasn't this the speech where he was going to flesh out the details? present his plan? he says its a moral imperative but can't trouble himself with any details.

he just put a new spin on the same platitudes that we already know aren't true.

of course, with his vast wealth of experience and excellent track record of achievement, we should put our complete faith in whatever he says.:rolleyes:
government cost cutting and efficiency experts must be the answer.

[Warren Henry]

Anyone catch his reference to the letter the POS POTUS claimed to have gotten from Ted after his death.

I am pretty sure that Obama claimed Ted wrote the letter when he learned of his diagnosis, but requested it to be delivered after his death.

I am also pretty sure that Obama claimed that Ted stated that he had enjoyed these last few months of his life.


If Ted wrote this letter several months ago (before the last few months of his life), he would not yet have experienced these last few months of his life.

So, was there really a letter. If such a letter exists, did Obama embelish the retelling of its contents. Or did Obama and his speech writers make the whole thing up.

Any of you apologizers want to spin this for me?


There were numerous other points of his address that would seem to be bullshit too. They will be topics for other threads and other posts.

[Tom]

There were numerous other points of his address that would seem to be bullshit too. They will be topics for other threads and other posts.

Yes, the beginning, the middle, and the end!

[ddog]

Anyone catch his reference to the letter the POS POTUS claimed to have gotten from Ted after his death.

I am pretty sure that Obama claimed Ted wrote the letter when he learned of his diagnosis, but requested it to be delivered after his death.

I am also pretty sure that Obama claimed that Ted stated that he had enjoyed these last few months of his life.


If Ted wrote this letter several months ago (before the last few months of his life), he would not yet have experienced these last few months of his life.

So, was there really a letter. If such a letter exists, did Obama embelish the retelling of its contents. Or did Obama and his speech writers make the whole thing up.

Any of you apologizers want to spin this for me?


There were numerous other points of his address that would seem to be bullshit too. They will be topics for other threads and other posts.



there seems no need to add any spin, you seem very very dizzy already!

perhaps a prop would be better as an avatar now.

You make yourself silly when you try this hard.

relax-he will fail without the epic bs you are dumping in this one.

[Snag]

"It's a lie" (by the yellers and screamers).

I wonder if we will ever find out who the yellers were?

[Rookies]

The Associated Press identified the member of Congress as Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C.

Don't drink all the moonshine before the big speeches you classless rube. Did he think he was at a Teabag party ? Thankfully, McCain came to the rescue and advised this buffoon what to do with his manners.

I'll always remember when Ronnie gave a speech to the House of Commons. It was interrupted by one of my left wing guys. It was very embarassing and discourteous to the office of the President, regardless of whether you agree with his beliefs.

Hey, yell and scream all you want at political events. But, there's a time and place for everything and some of these loons have set a very bad prededent for the future.

[Warren Henry]

there seems no need to add any spin, you seem very very dizzy already!

perhaps a prop would be better as an avatar now.

You make yourself silly when you try this hard.

relax-he will fail without the epic bs you are dumping in this one.
I ask you two simple questions. Did he make the statements I claim? If he did, how do you explain them?

[riskman]

"A South Carolina Republican lawmaker shouted "You lie" at President Barack Obama as he addressed Congress on Wednesday, prompting a GOP senator to call for an apology.

In his speech in the House chamber, Obama was telling lawmakers that the Democratic plans for health care overhaul do not cover illegal immigrants.

"The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," Obama said.

"You lie!" Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouted from his seat, jabbing a finger in the air."

From---townhall.com/news/politics

[Warren Henry]

The Associated Press identified the member of Congress as Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C.

Don't drink all the moonshine before the big speeches you classless rube. Did he think he was at a Teabag party ? Thankfully, McCain came to the rescue and advised this buffoon what to do with his manners.

I'll always remember when Ronnie gave a speech to the House of Commons. It was interrupted by one of my left wing guys. It was very embarassing and discourteous to the office of the President, regardless of whether you agree with his beliefs.

Hey, yell and scream all you want at political events. But, there's a time and place for everything and some of these loons have set a very bad prededent for the future.
Correct, there is a time and place for calling the President a liar. That was not the correct place.

[boxcar]

some excerpts from Obama's speech tonight.

"more will die if we do nothing..."

"the deficit will grow..more families will go bankrupt..more businesses will close"

"our system is at the breaking point"

"the time for games has passed"



wait for it, the icing on the cake?

"Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics...":lol:

this guy is so full of it I'm starting to look forward to his speeches for the sheer entertainment value and general hilarity. he has no clue.

I wonder what the dif is between [our] "scare tactics" and BO's excerpts? :confused: :confused:

Boxcar

[exactaplayer]

I wonder what the dif is between [our] "scare tactics" and BO's excerpts? :confused: :confused:

Boxcar
The President was stating facts.

[Warren Henry]

The President was stating facts.
OIC :lol:

[riskman]

The President was stating facts.

Like in August when Obama was telling his whoppers while the Federal Government was in in recess. It is worth noting that many more people than had previously realized have notice the "One" exaggerating badly in his talks on health care. For instance confusing he actual $500 physicians get to amputate a foot as opposed to the $50,000 that he claimed they got. He has shown an utter disregard for the reputation of those he talks about, the "facts" he uses to make his argument, and is highly overly optimistic about the results of his policies.

Many are now wondering aloud, "What on earth have we done?"

[boxcar]

The President was stating facts.

Well...this was a given. Those were his version of the "facts". But the $64. question is: Was this proven serial liar being truthful?

Boxcar

[mostpost]

Anyone catch his reference to the letter the POS POTUS claimed to have gotten from Ted after his death.

I am pretty sure that Obama claimed Ted wrote the letter when he learned of his diagnosis, but requested it to be delivered after his death.

I am also pretty sure that Obama claimed that Ted stated that he had enjoyed these last few months of his life.


If Ted wrote this letter several months ago (before the last few months of his life), he would not yet have experienced these last few months of his life.

So, was there really a letter. If such a letter exists, did Obama embelish the retelling of its contents. Or did Obama and his speech writers make the whole thing up.

Any of you apologizers want to spin this for me?


There were numerous other points of his address that would seem to be bullshit too. They will be topics for other threads and other posts.

The transript of the speech is available at Cspan.com. Kennedy wrote the letter in May. He had been told that his illness was terminal at that time, but he had been sick for a long time before. Remember that he had to be taken from the Inauguration luncheon. If he was speaking of how happy the last months of his life were, he was speaking of his life up to that time in May. Obviously :bang:
Obama and his speech writers did not make the whole thing up. Obama did not embellish the contents. There was no need to do so. What Obama was referenced was exactly, precisely the way Ted Kennedy was.
There were numerous other points of his address that would seem to be bullshit too.
I thought there were rules about profanity here. Maybe I'm wrong :confused: :confused: :confused:

[mostpost]

some excerpts from Obama's speech tonight.

"more will die if we do nothing..."

"the deficit will grow..more families will go bankrupt..more businesses will close"

"our system is at the breaking point"

"the time for games has passed"



wait for it, the icing on the cake?

"Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics...":lol:

this guy is so full of it I'm starting to look forward to his speeches for the sheer entertainment value and general hilarity. he has no clue.
Barack Obama is not the one who has no clue here.
The Republicans are in the back pocket of the insurance industry.
Scare tactics? You laugh?
The Republicans said there will be Death Panels....There are no death panels
The Republicans said Illegal immigrants would be covered...all of the bills specifically exclude illegal immigrants.
The Republicans said that abortions would be federally funded....None of the bills provides for federal funding of abortions.
The Republicans said that Money would be taken from Medicare benefits to pay for the new health care plan.....It WOULD NOT.

And what brilliant plans do the Republicans come up with.
The following is a list of their brilliant plans:




The preceeding was a list of the Republicans brilliant plans to fix health care in the United States. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Warren Henry]

The transript of the speech is available at Cspan.com. Kennedy wrote the letter in May. He had been told that his illness was terminal at that time, but he had been sick for a long time before. Remember that he had to be taken from the Inauguration luncheon. If he was speaking of how happy the last months of his life were, he was speaking of his life up to that time in May. Obviously :bang:
Obama and his speech writers did not make the whole thing up. Obama did not embellish the contents. There was no need to do so. What Obama was referenced was exactly, precisely the way Ted Kennedy was.

I thought there were rules about profanity here. Maybe I'm wrong :confused: :confused: :confused:
For being the first one up with the spin. I would have bet serious money it would have been you.

Has there ever been a speech, appointment, bill, or anything else given by or sponsored by or made by a Democrat that you haven't absolutely loved?

[mostpost]

For being the first one up with the spin. I would have bet serious money it would have been you.

Has there ever been a speech, appointment, bill, or anything else given by or sponsored by or made by a Democrat that you haven't absolutely loved?
One man's spin is another man's truth.

[mostpost]

Has there ever been a speech, appointment, bill, or anything else given by or sponsored by or made by a Democrat that you haven't absolutely loved?
Yeah, I think they are being way to nice to the Republicans, who are lying scumbags.
Has there ever been a speech, appointment, bill, or anything else given by or sponsored by or made by a Democrat that you haven't absolutely hated?

[bigmack]

Yeah, I think they are being way to nice to the Republicans, who are lying scumbags.
Has there ever been a speech, appointment, bill, or anything else given by or sponsored by or made by a Democrat that you haven't absolutely hated?
I pretty much get your position on 'the best defense is a strong offense' vibe, with your continual, 'you the bad guys routine', however; got anything good to say about the sales pitch tonight?

That being the topic & all.

[PaceAdvantage]

Always interesting to see who's in power and who ain't !

The stone faced, grim reaper stiffs on the right show it perfectly.I'll ask again for the fourth time...why did Van Jones resign if "the stiffs on the right" wield no power anymore?

And why is Obama's approval rating tanking so fast?

[PaceAdvantage]

I thought there were rules about profanity here. Maybe I'm wrong :confused: :confused: :confused:Thanks for the moderating help...always appreciated.

However, the judicial use of bullshit is completely allowed. As is shit, horseshit, and any other number of choice off-color words you used to hear on the now cancelled ABC cop drama NYPD Blue.

I used to say I operate under the NYPD Blue standards and practices...but now that just sounds dated, as Blue has been off the air for years...

[lsbets]

The President was stating facts.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That was a good one. What's next - the post office is a model organization?

I think it should be obvious to all who benefits the most from BOs proposal that everyone get insurance.

The insurance companies.

[Tom]

The President was stating facts.Is it in writing?

[sandpit]

Thanks for the moderating help...always appreciated.

However, the judicial use of bullshit is completely allowed. As is shit, horseshit, and any other number of choice off-color words you used to hear on the now cancelled ABC cop drama NYPD Blue.

I used to say I operate under the NYPD Blue standards and practices...but now that just sounds dated, as Blue has been off the air for years...

I'm sure you don't need my vote of approval, but that's still a good guideline...NYPD was a really good show that could be gruesome and tender at the same time and led the way for many of the detective shows since.

[exactaplayer]

Is it in writing?
All you folks can go to factcheck.org to get the truth regarding the facts vs. myths.

[exactaplayer]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That was a good one. What's next - the post office is a model organization?

I think it should be obvious to all who benefits the most from BOs proposal that everyone get insurance.

The insurance companies.
If this is true, why are the insurance companies spending millions of dollars trying to stop health care reform ?

[robert99]

If this is true, why are the insurance companies spending millions of dollars trying to stop health care reform ?

They spend the millions to get the right result for them from the possible changes. Stop - means no change. Change can mean more profits as well as less. They are pushing for an end result on the more side.

[jognlope]

In 5 years if nothing is done, the only people who will be able to afford the health insurance premiums will be corporations. No small businesses will be able to afford it and definitely no individuals who aren't rich.

[Tom]

All you folks can go to factcheck.org to get the truth regarding the facts vs. myths.

Screw factchecks - I want it in writing, in a bill, that HE will sign. Until then, it is all talk. Factchecks is not binding.

[delayjf]

based on an honest evaluation of his statements last night I agree President Obama was telling the truth.

"more will die if we do nothing..."
fact: everyone dies whether something is done or not.
"the deficit will grow..
Fact: His spending and his healthcare program will see to that
more families will go bankrupt..more businesses will close
Fact: Nothing in his healtcare bill or any bill ever submitted or proposed to Congress will prevent families or businesses from going bankrupt.
"our system is at the breaking point"
Fact: due to his outrageous spending our debt has exploded which is putting the US at the breaking point
"the time for games has passed"
I hope he's not referring to football

The Republicans said that abortions would be federally funded....None of the bills provides for federal funding of abortions.
With regards to the above, the courts have ruled that where not prohibited by legislation, abortions will be funded - the Dems shot down any wording prohibiting funding for abortion, therefore it will be funded.

[Tom]

In 5 years if nothing is done, the only people who will be able to afford the health insurance premiums will be corporations. No small businesses will be able to afford it and definitely no individuals who aren't rich.

Yes, that is why it is so important to do the RIGHT things, not the Obama things. Howard Dean admitted they did not include tort reform because it would piss off the trial lawyers. Right there, the credibility of all the bills disappears. Let me translate - "We care more about trial lawyers than we do the Americna people."

Obummer was right about something last night, though - time to do someting and quit haggling. The dems have been unwilling to negotiate anything. We can do tort reform right now, we can get governement to stop restricting HC polices so that we can but them from any state we want - right now we areprevented from shopping around not by the insurance companies, but by governement. A dem controlled governement.

We can stop providing free HC to every illegal who shows up by, not refusing them the treatments, vbut by arresting them when they get it. The deporting them and billing MEXICO for the services. Canada - the paradigm of HC to some here, does not provide freebies to any fool foreigners who show up...why should we?

If the threat of arrest stops them from showing up, GOOD. Their problem-o, not ours. Go back home and get it.

What are the roadblocks?

1. Government is not wlling to admit that they are the bad guys here, no tthe HC insurers
2. Goverment is afraid to upset the trial lawyers to the extent they will let you die.
3. Government is courting the Hispanic vote and is not willing to represent REAL Americans.

Mr. OBama, we have met the enemy. It is YOU.
Take out those three easy solutions and then re-evaluate HC costs.


But then, it takes the control away from the dems, and that is really all they care about, not us.

[exactaplayer]

Screw factchecks - I want it in writing, in a bill, that HE will sign. Until then, it is all talk. Factchecks is not binding.
So then, you are for health care reform ?

[andymays]

So then, you are for health care reform ?


Everyone should be for reform. The President talked about paying for reform by eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse. Why don't we do that first and see what happens?

[Tom]

So then, you are for health care reform ?

Yes, of course. And that is why I am opposed to the bullshit being talked about by congress and the dimwit. REAL reform could already be in effect if the morons really wanted to reform it. And I do not need factcheck to know that. REAL reform of HC starts with getting the government to stop interfering with it and driving up the costs.

[ArlJim78]

Barack Obama is not the one who has no clue here.
The Republicans are in the back pocket of the insurance industry.
Scare tactics? You laugh?
The Republicans said there will be Death Panels....There are no death panels
The Republicans said Illegal immigrants would be covered...all of the bills specifically exclude illegal immigrants.
The Republicans said that abortions would be federally funded....None of the bills provides for federal funding of abortions.
The Republicans said that Money would be taken from Medicare benefits to pay for the new health care plan.....It WOULD NOT.

And what brilliant plans do the Republicans come up with.
The following is a list of their brilliant plans:




The preceeding was a list of the Republicans brilliant plans to fix health care in the United States. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
there are in fact several Republican plans that have been offered. However, Obama and people like yourself don't want to listen to any alternative. Its the complete federal way or nothing at all.

[GaryG]

He is going to have to eat his "Public Option" with Pelosi, Waters, Conyers and company and it will not be pleasant. The we can talk.

[ArlJim78]

Listening to CNN International this morning (i'm traveling in Mexico and it was the only english station), and they were breathlessly claiming that their polls showed many people changed their minds last night after listening to the president's finger-wagging speech. In fact they said approval for his plan shot up to 67%. I have no clue who they polled, probably a panel of democrats.

I'm curious if anyone on this board changed their mind last night? :lol:
or does anyone know of anyone who changed their mind.

[ArlJim78]

Even AP-Obama (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check)finds numerous lies (okay they call them oversimplifications and ommissions, I prefer to call them lies like the congressman from NC) when they
fact check Obama's speech.
______________________________________
OBAMA: "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period."

THE FACTS: Though there's no final plan yet, the White House and congressional Democrats already have shown they're ready to skirt the no-new-deficits pledge.
______________________________________

OBAMA: "Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."

THE FACTS: That's correct, as far as it goes. But neither can the plan guarantee that people can keep their current coverage. Employers sponsor coverage for most families, and they'd be free to change their health plans in ways that workers may not like, or drop insurance altogether. The Congressional Budget Office analyzed the health care bill written by House Democrats and said that by 2016 some 3 million people who now have employer-based care would lose it because their employers would decide to stop offering it.

In the past Obama repeatedly said, "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan, period." Now he's stopping short of that unconditional guarantee by saying nothing in the plan "requires" any change.
_________________________________________________

this is the type of misleading crap I can't stand. Of course they don't require any changes. But what they don't say is that the way they are setting things up it will inevitably lead to change.

of course unions and federal workers will no doubt be protected as usual.

[46zilzal]

Ever since Dr. Linda Peeno went public, the cat is out of the bag over these GOONS who run health insurance. Sicko brought out more personal experiences from the hundreds of respondents to Moores' request for health care horror stories: Were ALL those people liars? hardly

[exactaplayer]

Yes, of course. And that is why I am opposed to the bullshit being talked about by congress and the dimwit. REAL reform could already be in effect if the morons really wanted to reform it. And I do not need factcheck to know that. REAL reform of HC starts with getting the government to stop interfering with it and driving up the costs.
Based on this I would have to ask you what you think about the fact that medicare is the most efficient form of health care available today. 10 to 15 percent overhead vs. 25 to 30 percent overhead for private insurers ? Government is not driving up the costs, it is private insurers quest for ever increasing profits that is driving up the costs. Blue Cross just announced a 22 percent increase coming soon while their top executives gave themselves healthy bonuses for doing such a good job. Check it out on factcheck.

[mostpost]

Listening to CNN International this morning (i'm traveling in Mexico and it was the only english station), and they were breathlessly claiming that their polls showed many people changed their minds last night after listening to the president's finger-wagging speech. In fact they said approval for his plan shot up to 67%. I have no clue who they polled, probably a panel of democrats.

I'm curious if anyone on this board changed their mind last night? :lol:
or does anyone know of anyone who changed their mind.
I keep seeing posts here that Obama is fast losing support. Those posts are based on opinion polls. If those opinion polls were accurate in portraying those loses, then they are accurate in portraying the gains. You know as well as I do that pollsters are very careful in choosing their interviewees.

This increase in approval for Obama's health care plan proves what I have felt all along. A major reason for the drop in approval ratings was that people were confused about what his plan contained. That confusion was cleared up last night. A second reason was that people felt Obama was straying from the principles he espoused in the campaign and early in his administration. Last night he reaffirmed those principles.

[boxcar]

If this is true, why are the insurance companies spending millions of dollars trying to stop health care reform ?

Would this fall under "myth" or "fact"? Did you check with factcheck.org?

Boxcar

[Tom]

Based on this I would have to ask you what you think about the fact that medicare is the most efficient form of health care available today. 10 to 15 percent overhead vs. 25 to 30 percent overhead for private insurers ? Government is not driving up the costs, it is private insurers quest for ever increasing profits that is driving up the costs. Blue Cross just announced a 22 percent increase coming soon while their top executives gave themselves healthy bonuses for doing such a good job. Check it out on factcheck.

And going broke. Let taxpayers finance Blue Cross and they will look much better, too. Government most certainly IS driving up costs. Their interference and artificial regulations couple with their support for trial lawyers rapping the system is a major cos factor. If you don't believe that, ask 10,000 doctors who just presented a petition to capital hill yesterday.

[boxcar]

So then, you are for health care reform ?

Sure. I don't know of any conservative who is not in favor of genuine HC reform freemarket style -- in other words, not to be confused with a government takeover of the industry for the benefit of those of you who live under rocks.

Boxcar

[cj's dad]

"A South Carolina Republican lawmaker shouted "You lie" at President Barack Obama as he addressed Congress on Wednesday, prompting a GOP senator to call for an apology.

In his speech in the House chamber, Obama was telling lawmakers that the Democratic plans for health care overhaul do not cover illegal immigrants.

"The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," Obama said.

"You lie!" Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouted from his seat, jabbing a finger in the air."

From---townhall.com/news/politics

Quite appropriate; he is, in fact, a liar and he and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that. Thanks Joe for having the b--ls to say so.

[Tom]

Would this fall under "myth" or "fact"? Did you check with factcheck.org?

Boxcar

Who checks fact check?
Who sells sea shells.....down by the sea shore? :D

[boxcar]

Ever since Dr. Linda Peeno went public, the cat is out of the bag over these GOONS who run health insurance. Sicko brought out more personal experiences from the hundreds of respondents to Moores' request for health care horror stories: Were ALL those people liars? hardly

Since when did you become such a big fan of anecdotal evidence?

Boxcar

[Tom]

I keep seeing posts here that Obama is fast losing support. Those posts are based on opinion polls. If those opinion polls were accurate in portraying those loses, then they are accurate in portraying the gains. You know as well as I do that pollsters are very careful in choosing their interviewees.



Sorry, but that is not the standard set by the left the last 8 years. Can't have it both ways. Polls are the way, the truth, the light. Ask hcap.:D

[boxcar]

In 5 years if nothing is done, the only people who will be able to afford the health insurance premiums will be corporations. No small businesses will be able to afford it and definitely no individuals who aren't rich.

The sky is falling, too, in five minutes.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Listening to CNN International this morning (i'm traveling in Mexico and it was the only english station), and they were breathlessly claiming that their polls showed many people changed their minds last night after listening to the president's finger-wagging speech. In fact they said approval for his plan shot up to 67%. I have no clue who they polled, probably a panel of democrats.

I'm curious if anyone on this board changed their mind last night? :lol:
or does anyone know of anyone who changed their mind.

Another mindless and very predictable Dims ploy designed to show that once the king speaks, people really do understand and love him and want to obey him.

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Since when did you become such a big fan of anecdotal evidence?

Boxcar
hardly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Peeno

QUOTE: "I contend that "managed care," as we currently know it, is inherently unethical in its organization and operation. Furthermore, I maintain that we have an industry which can exist only through flagrant ethical violations against individuals and the public."

[Warren Henry]

Yeah, I think they are being way to nice to the Republicans, who are lying scumbags.
Has there ever been a speech, appointment, bill, or anything else given by or sponsored by or made by a Democrat that you haven't absolutely hated?
I have even voted for Democrats. I try to listen and think, I also try to ask questions when appropriate in order to better understand. Then in the end, I vote for the person who seems to best fit how I believe. In some rare cases, that is for a Democrat.

Unlike your blanket support for anything Democrat, I do not give blanket approval to Republicans. Contrary to his claims otherwise, I knew that Nixon was a crook. His primary fault was arrogance, and that is what ultimately brought him down.

I also am very critical of both of the Bush men. They were not true conservatives.

[jognlope]

Tom, I am now against the public option after hearing from a Rep senator last night after Obama's speech, that it will create 53 bureaucracies, although that might be an exageration... still, 20 or 30 agencies is too much. Still the only way to drive down insurance premiums is to have a low-cost alternative, that is not embedded in insurance companies. Howard Dean is right, won't work to just throw money at insurance companies. They're ran by sneaky little bad boys who want their expensive toys, who care little about the nation's health care crisis.

[Tom]

jog, the government fits that same description. :rolleyes: Only worse. At least the insurance companies are so far funding the world's finest health care system,

The government has been nothing more than an anchor to it. You cannot assign all the blame to the insurance companies as long as the government regulates them! and builds in higher costs.

[46zilzal]

jog, the government fits that same description. Only worse. At least the insurance companies are so far funding the world's finest health care system,



Which they constantly deny access to repeatedly. My sister tells me the horror stories of insurance CRAP as she is a medical coder at a large hospital. "IT is the position of health care insurers NOT to pay and make it so difficult that they count on a certain percentage to give up before the red tape runs out." She fights that battle EVERY DAY.

We had the example of my father who paid into his plan for over 35 years and used it TWICE: once in the late 70's and when he died from an MI. The last time, at his death, my sister had to SUE them to pay for his medical bills. SLIMY bastards

[andymays]

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2009/09/obama-speech-ratings-bomb.html

Excerpt:

Considering the saturation coverage of Barack Obama's desperate pitch for socialized healthcare last night, these are rather abysmal ratings.

FOX easily won the night dominating the adults 18-49 and adults 18-34 demos.

From 8pm-9pm the president averaged 21.2 million just on ABC (adults 18-49 rating/share =1.8/5, 7.4 million total viewers), CBS (1.2/4, 5.63 million) and NBC (1.9/6.8.16 million).

People want to jump the gun on declaring So You Think You Can Dance in the fall a mistake and a loser. For now, FOX laughs at you and will take its 2.7/8 adults 18-49 rating and 3.0/9 with adults 18-34 and not worry that there were only 6.465 million viewers. Leave Marc Berman to complain about that while FOX smiles at its year over year improvements even if it wasn’t as strong as the summer version of the show.

[46zilzal]

What does it matter through what window a person viewed the view? That view is still the same no matter.

[Tom]

Which they constantly deny access to repeatedly. My sister tells me the horror stories of insurance CRAP as she is a medical coder at a large hospital. "IT is the position of health care insurers NOT to pay and make it so difficult that they count on a certain percentage to give up before the red tape runs out." She fights that battle EVERY DAY.

We had the example of my father who paid into his plan for over 35 years and used it TWICE: once in the late 70's and when he died from an MI. The last time, at his death, my sister had to SUE them to pay for his medical bills. SLIMY bastards

:sleeping: more anecdotal evidence and only half the story to boot. :sleeping:
BTW, insurance companies do NOT deny health care to anyone. They just decline to pay for it. You should look around up there - thousands of Canadians come here to get what they need and pay for it themselves.

[Tom]

What does it matter through what window a person viewed the view? That view is still the same no matter.

If you looked through the Fox window, you saw people dancing! They didn't cover the speech. No need to - it was the same old lies he has been spreading all year.

Hmmmm, come to think of it, if you looked through any other window covering the speech, you saw people dancing, too! :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

Listening to CNN International this morning (i'm traveling in Mexico and it was the only english station), and they were breathlessly claiming that their polls showed many people changed their minds last night after listening to the president's finger-wagging speech. In fact they said approval for his plan shot up to 67%. I have no clue who they polled, probably a panel of democrats.

I'm curious if anyone on this board changed their mind last night? :lol:
or does anyone know of anyone who changed their mind.

Here is the answer from the CNN politics site:

The sample of speech-watchers in this poll was 45 percent Democratic and 18 percent Republican. Our best estimate of the number of Democrats in the voting age population as a whole indicates that the sample is about 8-10 points more Democratic than the population as a whole.

Mostpost is right you can't trust CNN polls.

[exactaplayer]

Quite appropriate; he is, in fact, a liar and he and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that. Thanks Joe for having the b--ls to say so.
"Joe Wilson’s ‘You Lie’ Provides Fund-Raising Boon for Opponent (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4053151)
Proof that one man’s loss is another man’s gain: in the hours following South Carolina’s GOP Rep. Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” outburst during President Barack Obama’s joint address to Congress Wednesday evening, his 2010 Democratic opponent has raised about $100,000 from 3,000 people, according to a spokeswoman for the House Democrats’ campaign operation. The Democratic grassroots immediately sprang in to action last night to aid Rob Miller, an Iraq War veteran who unsuccessfully challenged Wilson."

Thanks Joe.
Joe has apologized for his behavior. He has also been proven wrong.

[exactaplayer]

Would this fall under "myth" or "fact"? Did you check with factcheck.org?

Boxcar
Lobbyists Spend Millions to Influence Health Care

By Dan Eggen
Drugmakers, hospitals and insurers continued to pour millions of dollars into lobbying during the second quarter of this year, hoping to limit the damage to their bottom line as lawmakers and the Obama administration wrangle over landmark health-care legislation.

New disclosure reports that began arriving Monday in Congress showed familiar players at the top of the health-care influence heap, including $6.2 million in lobbying by the dominant Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) and $4 million by the American Medical Association.

Many health companies and associations increased their first-quarter lobbying expenditures, sometimes dramatically. The Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association upped its lobbying expenditures by a full million, to 2.8 million dollars in the second quarter; GlaxoSmithKline's spending jumped from $1.8 million to $2.3 million; Novartis grew from $1.4 million to $1.8 million; and Metlife Group reported $1.7 million, up nearly 50 percent. Allstate, which spent less than $900,000 on lobbying through March, boosted its spending to more than $1.5 million from April to June.

More at link

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/health_care_continues_its_inte.html

[andymays]

YouTube - Rush on 'Lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb_SmsGCzs&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebreitbart%2Etv%2Fa%2Dblata nt%2Dlie%2Drush%2Ddefends%2Dcongressmans%2Dobama%2 Doutburst%2F&feature=player_embedded

[Tom]

Thanks Joe.
Joe has apologized for his behavior. He has also been proven wrong.

Where in HR32 does it prove him wrong?

[jognlope]

Listening to Orrin Hatch, a big part of the blame should go to the court system which forces doctors to over-test and over-utilize medical diagnostic equipment to avoid a malpractice suite, ridiculous malpractice insurance costs....

[46zilzal]

Ambulance chasing lawyers who got their "degree" from one of the many shopping mall universities are a plague on the system.

These CLOWNS, with NO experience in real world medical care, survive on stirring up controversy where is does not exist. When I got out of school in 1976, the going rate for a new physician in California, the MINIMUM coverage was $13,000 per annum. Bull

HERE we have a three person panel who meets before ANY lawsuit goes to court to render a decision on the merits of a case. IF this panel finds enough evidence of serious impropriety then it goes to court, otherwise it has little chance.

Poor medical care and the results should be policed and called on to the carpet.

[Tom]

Yes, a huge cost that the congress refuses to address.
But we have to hurry hurry hurry......this from Obama, who it took 6 months to pick out a family dog!

Our health and well being and 1/6th of our economy - hurry up..now!!!!!

A dog........let's not rush into anything.

And then he buys a Portugese Water Closet!

[exactaplayer]

Where in HR32 does it prove him wrong?
The Truth about Health Care Reform HR3200 - Part 3: Some Facts and Fictions from the 200 Section



Rumor:
The Federal Health Care Reform will allow coverage for illegal aliens.
Fact:
Section 246 expressly states "No federal payment for undocumented aliens."

[ddog]

Everyone should be for reform. The President talked about paying for reform by eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse. Why don't we do that first and see what happens?


Because one sides waste fraud and abuse is another sides PROFIT.

You think doctors and those who provide services among the related groups are going to roll over and give this gravy train up?

The out of control billing practices of the medical industry are a joke.

Why can you not easily go to a website and see the cost of a simple procedure, a doctors track record, how much he pays to be insured and on and on?

How do you expect a free market(a joke for at least 30 years) to work when the info is all on one side of a wall you don't get to see until the bills come in the mail? How do you expect to make a choice when the cost is wildly different depending on who is paying the fee?

The game is rigged and it needs to be torn down and rebuilt with full disclosure and choice across the board.


cut waster fraud and abuse????

NO WAY!!!!

This part is always a lie , no matter which liar in chief says it and no matter when they said it!

Count on it, there will be no savings from waste/fraud and abuse.

Never has been and never will.

If this is out there, then let's DO IT NOW.
Should be layup , after all EVERYONE KNOWS WHERE IT IS???
:D

[ddog]

medical malpractice and lawyers.


Easy , exactly what is done elsewhere.

A panel of independent experts reviews the case, if a standard type of injury was done then a standard benefit is paid out on the spot.

If gross negligence is indicated the case can be turned over to a special court (no jury trials-in the ins contract up front - you waive it) and the case can be heard and the penalty set and action against the doctor/etc. is set there.

Simple.

Never happen here.

Docs don't want it despite what they say and lawyer and ins don't want it either.

All of them have vested interests built into the system now to avoid this type of deal.

Someone is making money off of malpractice , hmmmm. i wonder who that could be?

[exactaplayer]

Yes, a huge cost that the congress refuses to address.
But we have to hurry hurry hurry......this from Obama, who it took 6 months to pick out a family dog!

Our health and well being and 1/6th of our economy - hurry up..now!!!!!

A dog........let's not rush into anything.

And then he buys a Portugese Water Closet!
Health care reform was first attempted by Harry S. Truman in 1948. His attempts like those of JFK and Clinton went down under heavy pressure from the insurance industry. the only success was LBJ's medicare program. 1948 to 2009 doesn't sound like a hurry up job to me.
And a Portuguese Water dog is said to be a good dog for families.

[Tom]

Health care reform was first attempted by Harry S. Truman in 1948. His attempts like those of JFK and Clinton went down under heavy pressure from the insurance industry. the only success was LBJ's medicare program. 1948 to 2009 doesn't sound like a hurry up job to me.
And a Portuguese Water dog is said to be a good dog for families.

RIF. I said OBAMA is the one yelling hurry, hurry, hurry. Maybe if he took half the time he spent looking at dogs, he would have seen the obviously easy and dramatic impact he could have made on costs already.

[robert99]

medical malpractice and lawyers.


Easy , exactly what is done elsewhere.

A panel of independent experts reviews the case, if a standard type of injury was done then a standard benefit is paid out on the spot.

If gross negligence is indicated the case can be turned over to a special court (no jury trials-in the ins contract up front - you waive it) and the case can be heard and the penalty set and action against the doctor/etc. is set there.

Simple.

Never happen here.

Docs don't want it despite what they say and lawyer and ins don't want it either.

All of them have vested interests built into the system now to avoid this type of deal.

Someone is making money off of malpractice , hmmmm. i wonder who that could be?

ddog,

We don't have too much ambulance chasing lawyers here but what they now do if you are having major treatment is have 3 doctors in a panel to discuss and agree your best treatment. Malpractice can only apply if one doctor has done something that others doctors would not do. Malpractice can therefore only apply in the most unlikely event if you have a rogue panel. The patient more likely gets the correct and best treatment the panel can devise. Cost almost zero with a better health outcome and doctors doctoring rather than sitting in Court rooms. Will vested interests rule the roost for ever in USA - with health they seem to be heading towards bankrupting the country for no good purpose?

[delayjf]

Tom,

Exactly, why should I support a bill as important as healtcare reform when:

A) It wasn't written by Obama or anyone in Congress

B) It wasn't read by Obama or anyone in Congress.

Can anyone tell me who wrote this bill??

[delayjf]

The Truth about Health Care Reform HR3200 - Part 3: Some Facts and Fictions from the 200 Section
Rumor:
The Federal Health Care Reform will allow coverage for illegal aliens.
Fact:
Section 246 expressly states "No federal payment for undocumented aliens."

Simular situation with federal funding of abortions. Yes, indeed that is what the bill states, BUT California attempted the same measure - they wanted to cut off healthcare funding for illegals and the prop was voted on and approved by CA citizens. HOWEVER, It was found to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL by two federal courts and the case was turned down by the Supreme Court - and the Demwits know it. Bottom line Illegals will get healthcare.

[andymays]

Vicoria Jackson! LIES

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/vjackson/2009/09/10/lies/

Excerpt:

I’m lying in my Tiffany blue bedroom, in the dark, listening to the President tell lies. He’s so good at it, that he is smiling and lots of people are clapping.
He says, “Public Option. No one will have to change, if they like their present situation.” LIE.
He says, “My plan will not add one dime to the deficit.” LIE.
(Congressional Budget Committee speak up!)
He says that if we don’t act now, the country will fall apart. LIE.
He says that quality of health care won’t suffer. LIE
He says that there won’t be rationing and those that say there will be are liars. LIE.
He says that the Republicans have no solutions to offer up. LIE
(Several of them lift papers into the air.)
He says that this is not socialism. LIE
He says this is the “moral” thing to do! LIE
(Take money from the middle class and give it to the non-taxpayers and illegals?!)
He says this won’t insure the illegals! LIE….
And then, wait, I choke on my caffeine-free Diet Coke… Like a voice from above, I think I just heard someone shout out, just what I was thinking, ”LIE!”

[slewis]

Simular situation with federal funding of abortions. Yes, indeed that is what the bill states, BUT California attempted the same measure - they wanted to cut off healthcare funding for illegals and the prop was voted on and approved by CA citizens. HOWEVER, It was found to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL by two federal courts and the case was turned down by the Supreme Court - and the Demwits know it. Bottom line Illegals will get healthcare.

Delay,

I hear exactly what you say and agree in principle.
The health care-public option vs illegal immigrant is something Ive researched and kept a close tab on because I am very passionate about both issues.

I will tell you this:

1)A public option is absolutely necessary for the future of this country because the system cannot be sustained in it's current form or in any facimile of (which is what Republicans want to appease their contributors and constituants).

2) If the Supreme court of this land rules that keeping illegals out of the system is unconstitutional it is the ABSOLUTE END OF THIS COUNTRY AS WE KNOW IT because it will open posibilities/arguements for Social Security and Medicare as well......

Now it sounded to me last night like the President drew a line in the sand regarding illegals. It was a ballsy thing for ANY democrat to do. I heard moans from the very liberal left who want to give away everything to everyone... but Obama has seen not only the studies I've seen but Im sure many more in much greater depth.
Implimentation of any health care system that fails will be his legacy, and he KNOWS that a public option CANNOT sustain an onslaught of illegal use.

Fortunetely, the Supreme court still tilts right so Im going to disagree with you that they (the court) would rule as you say.

I can see your fear... I wont say it's impossible (regarding our supreme court).... but it sure would be one more nail in the coffin of the USA if they did.

[slewis]

Because one sides waste fraud and abuse is another sides PROFIT.

You think doctors and those who provide services among the related groups are going to roll over and give this gravy train up?

The out of control billing practices of the medical industry are a joke.

Why can you not easily go to a website and see the cost of a simple procedure, a doctors track record, how much he pays to be insured and on and on?

How do you expect a free market(a joke for at least 30 years) to work when the info is all on one side of a wall you don't get to see until the bills come in the mail? How do you expect to make a choice when the cost is wildly different depending on who is paying the fee?

The game is rigged and it needs to be torn down and rebuilt with full disclosure and choice across the board.


cut waster fraud and abuse????

NO WAY!!!!

This part is always a lie , no matter which liar in chief says it and no matter when they said it!

Count on it, there will be no savings from waste/fraud and abuse.

Never has been and never will.

If this is out there, then let's DO IT NOW.
Should be layup , after all EVERYONE KNOWS WHERE IT IS???
:D


Dog,

Great points as usual...the entire system is broken... Ive said this since the eighties that if they dont start slowly making changes they will (and have) all catch up to us and it will all come crashing down.

But, we have to start somewhere, and health care is a good place to start.

[Secretariat]

I vote Democratic most elections, (although I did vote for Dole in 96.) But I must confess that I am dissapointed in Obama's plan as presented last night. I think th speech was incredibly impressive. Passionate, and very charismatic - yes.

My problem is that his "public option" is limited to only a small group of non-insured people. The "public option" concept is at the crux of containing costs and making this work. By Obama's own admission in the public option will affect at max 5% of the people, and those people who are already covered by employers - no matter how horrid their plan, are stuck on those plans and cannot choose the public option. It is so watered down as to make the "cost control" element almost moot. It also doesn't go in place for 4 years for crying out loud. And fines are to be assessed for those who do not choose coverage with the burden of proof for a waiver on the uninsured. While eliminating the pre-existing conditions and rescission is admirable, it is minimized by the lack of an expanded public option to contain the higher premiums that insurance companies will surely charge by removing two of it's stongest money making methods (bascially keeping sick people or kicking sick people off their roles). If required to accept sick people they simply will raise premiums to cover the sickest. They certainly aren't going to give up their profits.

I have always been in favor of a Single-Payer plan like Medicare (which is a age discriminatory plan). Obama's cavalier comments that it would be too difficult to shift over to that is hogwash. People shift seamlessly over to Medicare every day.

Essentially this is Rahm Emmanuel's plan backed by Obama much like much of Bush's agenda was led by Cheney.

I'm dissapointed in the plan, and would not be overwrought if it doesn't pass because failure of it to pass or even success of it will not result in real cost control. The only benefit of the Obama plan to me is uninsured people will have accessiblity to catastrophic coverage and preventive care, but medical inflation will continue to spiral out of control and premiums will continue to grow. :ThmbDown:

[Lefty]

The healthcare plan Obama talked about last night sounded wonderful.
It's too bad that's not the one Congress will be voting on.

mosty, you say illegal immigrants are excluded from all versions of the plan. please give me some excerpts from the actual plan that proves what you say.
if it is so, why would the R's feel the need to offer up an amendment excluding illegals, and why would the dims feel the need to vote it down?
Hmmm...

[Boris]

Liberals want to be in the insurance business because it is very profitable. These profits will not improve anyone's health care as they will be spent funding other government programs. That is the real plan. Everything else is noise.

[boxcar]

Liberals want to be in the insurance business because it is very profitable. These profits will not improve anyone's health care as they will be spent funding other government programs. That is the real plan. Everything else is noise.

Bingo! More fascism is in the works -- government takeover of the insurance industry.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I vote Democratic most elections, (although I did vote for Dole in 96.) But I must confess that I am dissapointed in Obama's plan as presented last night. I think th speech was incredibly impressive. Passionate, and very charismatic - yes.

My problem is that his "public option" is limited to only a small group of non-insured people. The "public option" concept is at the crux of containing costs and making this work. By Obama's own admission in the public option will affect at max 5% of the people, and those people who are already covered by employers - no matter how horrid their plan, are stuck on those plans and cannot choose the public option. It is so watered down as to make the "cost control" element almost moot. It also doesn't go in place for 4 years for crying out loud. And fines are to be assessed for those who do not choose coverage with the burden of proof for a waiver on the uninsured. While eliminating the pre-existing conditions and rescission is admirable, it is minimized by the lack of an expanded public option to contain the higher premiums that insurance companies will surely charge by removing two of it's stongest money making methods (bascially keeping sick people or kicking sick people off their roles). If required to accept sick people they simply will raise premiums to cover the sickest. They certainly aren't going to give up their profits.

I have always been in favor of a Single-Payer plan like Medicare (which is a age discriminatory plan). Obama's cavalier comments that it would be too difficult to shift over to that is hogwash. People shift seamlessly over to Medicare every day.

Essentially this is Rahm Emmanuel's plan backed by Obama much like much of Bush's agenda was led by Cheney.

I'm dissapointed in the plan, and would not be overwrought if it doesn't pass because failure of it to pass or even success of it will not result in real cost control. The only benefit of the Obama plan to me is uninsured people will have accessiblity to catastrophic coverage and preventive care, but medical inflation will continue to spiral out of control and premiums will continue to grow. :ThmbDown:

So...you think BO actually has a "plan"? Can you point us all to it on the web? Must be in print somewhere, right?

Boxcar

[delayjf]

1)A public option is absolutely necessary for the future of this country because the system cannot be sustained in it's current form or in any facimile of (which is what Republicans want to appease their contributors and constituants).

We both agree that the current system is not sustainable, but I disagree that national healthcare is the answer. Why not attempt to fix the system in place first, before going this hugely expensive route? I think a combination of open competition, tort reform, and regulation will go a long way to fix our healtcare system while perserving the best parts of the system.

[Tom]

Tom,

Can anyone tell me who wrote this bill??

Americorps?

[Tom]

Sec, what plan?
Point out the specific language in the plan that backs up what the dude said the other night.

[boxcar]

This from that WSW article:

Nevertheless, Obama made clear that he was prepared to drop this proposal, which is bitterly opposed by the insurance companies. “To my progressive friends,” he said, alluding to his liberal supporters and sections of congressional Democrats, “I would remind you that… the public option is only a means to that end—and we should remain open to other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal.”

And what is the "ultimate goal"? If you answered a one-payer system, go to the head of the class. (Barney Hot Dog and BO appear to be on the same wave length, don't they?)

And you gotta love the conclusion to this long article:

As with its bailout of Wall Street and its assault on auto workers, the Obama administration’s health care plan is designed to place the full burden of the crisis of American capitalism on the backs of the working class.

Once again, the libs will screw the very people whose causes they supposedly champion. No surprises here, are there? The takeover of the HC industry and/or insurance industry is a power and money grab. Pure and simple. It would just be another government step to eventually controlling all the private sector. Fascism is the ultimate goal of the BO administration.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/obam-s10.shtml

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Americorps?

Either that or BO's Brown Shirt Brigade -- even ACORN.

Boxcar

[andymays]

YouTube - Charles Krauthammer: Obama is selling snake oil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvBKtx8AS-c&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebreitbart%2Etv%2Fkrauthamm er%2Don%2Dhealth%2Dcare%2Daddress%2Dobama%2Dis%2Ds elling%2Dsnake%2Doil%2F&feature=player_embedded

Excerpt:

"When he talked about what would be in his bill and how he would not end up with a dime of deficit, he said it will cost almost $1 trillion dollars and the majority of it, more than half, will come from — what? From removing waste, fraud, and abuse from Medicare. Now, that's an insult to the intelligence of the American people. That phrase was a joke when it was used by Richard Nixon in 1971!"

[Tom]

I can only think of one person who would buy that load of crap.......

[witchdoctor]

http://www.omaha.com/article/20090912/NEWS0802/709129998/0/NEWS01

[highnote]

We both agree that the current system is not sustainable, but I disagree that national healthcare is the answer. Why not attempt to fix the system in place first, before going this hugely expensive route? I think a combination of open competition, tort reform, and regulation will go a long way to fix our healtcare system while perserving the best parts of the system.


Hey delayjf,

Maybe Obama is listening to you? :)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090913/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_health_care

"In his Wednesday speech and again in the CBS interview, the president signaled he was open the idea of so-called tort reform. Under current practice, doctors and hospitals must pay huge amounts to insure themselves against malpractice lawsuits by patients seeking large court-ordered settlements for poor treatment. "

[witchdoctor]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/09/14/obamas_dissolving_credibility_98294.html


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574409501904118682.html

[highnote]

From the Wall Street Journal article:

"Private health insurance cannot function if people buy insurance only after they become seriously ill, or if they knowingly conceal health conditions that might affect their policy."

I agree with this statement. This would be like only buying car insurance after you get in an accident. That's why if you want to drive in this country most states (all states?) require you to have automobile insurance.

[boxcar]

From the Wall Street Journal article:

"Private health insurance cannot function if people buy insurance only after they become seriously ill, or if they knowingly conceal health conditions that might affect their policy."

I agree with this statement. This would be like only buying car insurance after you get in an accident. That's why if you want to drive in this country most states (all states?) require you to have automobile insurance.

Exactly! Your conclusion is on the money. So then...do you think it's a smart move by the government to want to turn the health insurance industry on its head (the way it did with the banking industry) by forcing the industry to cover pre-existing conditions?

Boxcar

[highnote]

Exactly! Your conclusion is on the money. So then...do you think it's a smart move by the government to want to turn the health insurance industry on its head (the way it did with the banking industry) by forcing the industry to cover pre-existing conditions?

Boxcar

Your question has too many presuppositions -- it isn't known, and it's a matter of opinion, whether it would be "smart" to turn the health insurance industry on it's head. Did the gov turn the banking industry on it's head? And if it did turn the banking industry on it's head, was that a good or bad thing? Wells Fargo, Bank of America and many regional banks are doing well.

Basically, stripping away the presuppositions, the question you seem to be asking is -- should the gov force the industry to cover pre-existing conditions?

If universal health care was available it would be a moot point. Everyone would be covered. But how would this nation pay for universal coverage? Glad you asked. But I have no idea. I assume our elected officials are working on it. :D

So let me state what I think one big problem is -- people without health insurance will still try to get healthcare even when they can't afford to pay for it in cash.

Doctors and hospitals will probably give them free care or try to collect what they can. The money doctors and hospitals can't collect will then be written off as a bad debt expense. Then doctors and hospitals will have to charge a little extra to all the other people who pay their bills to offset the losses of uncollectible expenses.

So one way or another those who can afford to pay are going to end up paying for those who don't or can't pay.

In my mind, a good question to ask is whether today's system is the most efficient -- is the best possible care provided to the greatest number of people at the lowest cost? Probably not. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate. So what can be done to provide the best possible care to the greatest number of people at the lowest possible cost?

[PaceAdvantage]

So what can be done to provide the best possible care to the greatest number of people at the lowest possible cost?Whatever the answer to this question happens to be, do we really want to rely on the people in Congress and in the White House to try and come up with the best solution?

Government's track record to date is abysmal with these kinds of "grand scheme" types of issues.

Both sides have to be honest with themselves and at least admit this point.

[highnote]

Whatever the answer to this question happens to be, do we really want to rely on the people in Congress and in the White House to try and come up with the best solution?

Government's track record to date is abysmal with these kinds of "grand scheme" types of issues.

Both sides have to be honest with themselves and at least admit this point.


We put men on the moon. We built a great highway system. We have a great military. All of these things were accomplished by government agencies. The role of government is to tackle these large problems that can not be handled by private entities. It is not unrealistic that a government agency could run health care effectively.

[Tom]

Look at the stupidity of OBama's plans - he says he can pay for the entire HC bill with not a dime added to the deficit just using the waste and fraud in medicare. So he is saying the government run programs is a fiscal failure trying to control a segment of HC so naturally, when you expand it to cover ALL of HC it will suddnely and magically work! Give me a break.
How abouttis - fix medicare FIRST and then see howm mcuh REAL money we have and use that for HC?

There is only one thing govt can do to get more people covered - get back manufacturing jobs. So far, the Messiah has not done to well on that front.

Face it, Obama is a failure and congress is a failure. And that is at their best.

[boxcar]

In my mind, a good question to ask is whether today's system is the most efficient -- is the best possible care provided to the greatest number of people at the lowest cost? Probably not. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate. So what can be done to provide the best possible care to the greatest number of people at the lowest possible cost?

I'm a little pressed for time, so I'm just going to address this issue. I believe overall the U.S. health care is the best in the world and everyone who has insurance or who is wealthy enough will generally be taken care of in good fashion. Low costs? No! If you believe for a second that we can offer the best quality care and the best service at the lowest cost, you're suffering from a acute case of Pipe Dreams. Read my lips once again: It is IMPOSSIBLE for any business entity to offer and provide all three and stay in business for any length of time. It's IMPOSSIBLE! A business can only provide two of the three -- not all three. This, sir, is an irrefutable economic fact of life.

When it comes to my personal health, I don't want cut-rate service or cut-rate health products. I want the best. And I'm willing to pay for the best. But listen, listen, listen carefully to how the government is selling the "public option". Price, price, price, price, price....this is how they're trying to sell it. And in order to try to keep the prices low, they have to cut service. They "ration" the care -- just the same way a local supermarket chain in my area does. The chain can afford to offer great prices because they literally "ration" the service -- they "ration" the help in order to keep their payroll low.
Why do you think the UK and Canada, for example, have such long lead times before service is rendered? Really. Think about this! Don't get sucked into the government con game.

Furthermore, the government will cut costs the most from the most expensive
segment of the population to serve -- from the folks who need it the most -- the elderly. The cost to properly service senior citizens is higher than with any other segment of the population, therefore, this will be the area where services will be cut the most.

The next area that would see severe cuts in service would be with the chronically ill of all ages because what will eventually happen is that some bureaucrat, or some czar or some government panel or commission is going to get to decide whose life is not of sufficiently high quality and, therefore, not worth the medical costs for preserving. Eventually, someone in government will get to play God.

All of This is just plain ol' economic common sense. There is zero value to state-run health care -- unless, of course, you don't care all that much about your personal health.

Boxcar

[highnote]

Furthermore, the government will cut costs the most from the most expensive segment of the population to serve -- from the folks who need it the most -- the elderly. ...., therefore, this will be the area where services will be cut the most.

The next area that would see severe cuts in service would be with the chronically ill of all ages because what will eventually happen is that some bureaucrat, or some czar or some government panel or commission is going to get to decide whose life is not of sufficiently high quality and, therefore, not worth the medical costs for preserving. Eventually, someone in government will get to play God.



Your opinion is purely speculation and conjecture.

[boxcar]

Look at the stupidity of OBama's plans - he says he can pay for the entire HC bill with not a dime added to the deficit just using the waste and fraud in medicare. So he is saying the government run programs is a fiscal failure trying to control a segment of HC so naturally, when you expand it to cover ALL of HC it will suddnely and magically work! Give me a break.
How abouttis - fix medicare FIRST and then see howm mcuh REAL money we have and use that for HC?

There is only one thing govt can do to get more people covered - get back manufacturing jobs. So far, the Messiah has not done to well on that front.

Face it, Obama is a failure and congress is a failure. And that is at their best.

Not only this, but since they know there is so much fraud and waste, why have they waited until this moment in time to say they know what to do to fix it!? How come these brain-dead brainiacs in D.C. haven't fixed all the waste and fraud long before now? :bang: :bang: What were they waiting for -- a rainy day? :rolleyes:

And if they're so dead certain that they can drastically cut out the waste and fraud, I would want to see a detailed blueprint of how they intend to go about doing this; for you just know BO is lying through his nicotine-stained teeth!

Boxcar

[highnote]

Not only this, but since they know there is so much fraud and waste, why have they waited until this moment in time to say they know what to do to fix it!? How come these brain-dead brainiacs in D.C. haven't fixed all the waste and fraud long before now? :bang: :bang: What were they waiting for -- a rainy day? :rolleyes:

You act as if fraud and waste in government is something new.

[boxcar]

You act as if fraud and waste in government is something new.

No, you have it backwards, sir. In fact, I posted elsewhere on this forum just how much fraud and waste there is in one program -- Medicare.

It's the government who is suddenly waking up to the fact. All of a sudden the state is going to make this grandiose promise to the people to find all the waste and fraud and with all that new-found money, pay for the 'public option". :bang: Where has the state been all these years? :bang:

Anyone who believes this empty promise has to have rocks in his head.

Boxcar

[andymays]

YouTube - Megyn Kelly Erupts On O'Reilly Factor Over Joe Wilson's Liar Outburst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNaxWfLFjkQ&feature=player_embedded

[newtothegame]

Your opinion is purely speculation and conjecture.

But thats the beauty of debates...aren't ALL opinions speculation and conjecture? What one would hope to do is base opinions on a few things. One of which is history, The government has a history when it comes to running any programs efficiently. The facts are that government does NOT run programs efficiently. Now for those of you who will say look at the military, I would suggest to you (as a former military person) that YES, we have the best military in the world. But have you seen the cost of that military? Everyone has seen and heard of the $500.00 toilet seats. Need I say more? Efficiency is not a strong suit of government. While the opposite can be said for private industry. Private industries need to stay competitive. Where there is competition, companies are forced to stay on the "cutting edge" if you are to be profitable. This requires efficiency!
Now you could make a case for Insurance companies and the profits they make. I would tell you that you would be right due to lack of competition. So instead of having government (INEFFICIENT) take over healthcare, why not create COMPETITION? And I am referring to TRUE competition, not this government form that is NOT really competition when a private company is attempting to compete with a government entity that has no tax ramifications, no payroll concerns, etc etc.
Secondly, there must be tort reform! When medical fields (Dr's) are paying upwards of 60% of their income to malpractice suits insurance, there is a problem. On one hand we say we have the best care in the world, and then on the other we are suing the hell out of those who provide that care? Doesnt make much sense to me.
Thirdly, we need to look at immigration reform. Now all the libs will jump in here and say that the current health care plans do not provide for illegal citizens. I will tell you thats correct. But just look at some of the speeches B.O has RECENTLY done in south America and Mexico ( if not mistaken as to location) and you will see that it is B.O intent to make those illegals..LEGAL. Therefore, they would be covered in the said healthplan.
Also, as many here have mentioned which has YET to be debunked, medicare is very poorly run. This current administration says they can pay for healthcare with the inefficiencies in medicare. Well duhhh...if there are inefficiencies which they READILY ADMIT, how about we fix those NOW? Or are they saying that the inefficiencies can continue if they don't get healthcare plan?
Next, how about some "discipline" on the big drug companies? B.O seems to like handing out how things should run. How about controlling the cost of advertising alone for these major corporations? No one here honestly believes that the drug companies absorb that cost themselves! Those cost are built into the price of drugs. You want to control drug prices...start there! Not too mention I am sick of viagra and ciallis commercials lol.
There are MANY things that can be done.
But as last I can tell, you have to peel an onion layer by layer.

[newtothegame]

Hoyer Won't Answer Directly Whether Immigration Reform Would Make Current Illegal Aliens Eligible for Federally Subsidized Health Insurance Under Obamacare
Wednesday, September 16, 2009
By Matt Cover

(CNSNews.com) – House Majority Leader Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) intimated that if comprehensive immigration reform is passed, it could provide a method for immigrants currently living illegally in the U.S. to get federally subsidized health care.

Hoyer, speaking at his weekly press briefing Tuesday, was asked by CNSNews.com whether creating a pathway to citizenship for illegal aliens--a key part of comprehensive reform--would mean that currently-illegal aliens would become eligible for federal health care subsidies under the health-care reform plan.

Hoyer did not answer directly, saying instead that it was equally true that illegal aliens could return home and re-emigrate legally to become eligible for insurance subsidies:

CNSNews.com: You’ve indicated your support for a pathway to citizenship as part of comprehensive immigration reform. If that comprehensive reform is passed--with that pathway--isn’t it true that people who are now here illegally would be eligible for federal subsidies, when health care gets passed?

Rep. Steny Hoyer, House Majority Leader: It’s also true that if they went back home and were authorized to come in and were here legally (they would be eligible.) There’s all sorts of ‘ifs’ that you could hypothesize.

Hoyer pointed out that under the House’s version of health-care reform, illegal aliens are barred from receiving health subsidies.

“The bottom line is, though, that the bill makes it perfectly clear that under the bill those who are not here (legally) and those who are not authorized to be here cannot benefit from this particular legislation.”

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/54096

[Tom]

Uh huh. Like we have laws against hiring illegals, against illegal border crossings. Law mean nothing if they are not enforced.

[highnote]

But thats the beauty of debates...aren't ALL opinions speculation and conjecture?

I forgot to mention hyperbole. :D

What one would hope to do is base opinions on a few things. One of which is history, The government has a history when it comes to running any programs efficiently. The facts are that government does NOT run programs efficiently. Now for those of you who will say look at the military, I would suggest to you (as a former military person) that YES, we have the best military in the world. But have you seen the cost of that military? Everyone has seen and heard of the $500.00 toilet seats. Need I say more? Efficiency is not a strong suit of government. While the opposite can be said for private industry. Private industries need to stay competitive. Where there is competition, companies are forced to stay on the "cutting edge" if you are to be profitable. This requires efficiency!

so let's outsource the police department, the highway patrol, the national guard, the army, navy, airforce, marines, the fire department, schools, etc. etc. etc.

you think gov is corrupt and inefficient, just wait until companies like aig, enron and worldcom start running things.

[ddog]

I forgot to mention hyperbole. :D



so let's outsource the police department, the highway patrol, the national guard, the army, navy, airforce, marines, the fire department, schools, etc. etc. etc.

you think gov is corrupt and inefficient, just wait until companies like aig, enron and worldcom start running things.


Yes, New has a very idealized version of corp profits, it sounds like out of a Jimmy Stewart movie.

[ArlJim78]

so let's outsource the police department, the highway patrol, the national guard, the army, navy, airforce, marines, the fire department, schools, etc. etc. etc.

you think gov is corrupt and inefficient, just wait until companies like aig, enron and worldcom start running things.
no business is as inefficient or corrupt as the government.

[riskman]

Nearly a third of all health care costs in America are associated with wasteful administration. Fully 350 billion a year could be saved on paper work alone if the U.S. went to a single payer system --more than enough to pay for the whole damn thing. No one has the balls to stand up and say so.

A single payer system will not happen now or in the near future. We want to protect an industry that is stupid , dysfunctional and inefficient that refuses to reform unless threatened by an alternative ie.single payer or a public option.

[ArlJim78]

Nearly a third of all health care costs in America are associated with wasteful administration. Fully 350 billion a year could be saved on paper work alone if the U.S. went to a single payer system --more than enough to pay for the whole damn thing. No one has the balls to stand up and say so.
I think the reason no one stands up and says it is because its not true. there are not $350 billion in savings to be had by paperwork alone.

[Tom]

Talk is cheap.
That is the only thing cheap about govt.
Obama is lying, bottom line.

[boxcar]

This cartoon is a great analogy to ObamaCare. And it's funny to boot.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2009/08/open_thread_346.html

Boxcar

[boxcar]

this moron we have for a president is keeping his college records tightly wraps. This guy is a total idiot. Let's take some of the more juicy excerpts:

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says requiring people to get health insurance and fining them if they don't would not amount to a backhanded tax increase. "I absolutely reject that notion," the president said...Telling people to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase, Obama told ABC's "This Week."

First of all, why should the government be ordering a people in a free society to do anything they may not want to when the issue involved is not moral in nature? Having insurance or not having it isn't a moral choice. Of course, BO tries to make it one when he follows up with this remark:

"What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore," said Obama. "Right now everybody in America, just about, has to get auto insurance. Nobody considers that a tax increase."

Here he steps in it twice in one short paragraph. The megabytes of irony here is that he wants to impose stiff fines to make those who refuse to obey to help pay for others' burdens who can't or won't pay! This is the way the government gets to stick its greedy fingers into your pockets to force to help others with their burdens! How else is the government going to fund coverage for the "indigent"? Funny how the poor don't get to pay their fair share, isn't it? :bang: :bang:

And comparing car insurance to health insurance is entirely absurd because the nature of the coverages and the purposes behind each are very different. Most states require auto insurance for LIABILITY purposes -- for purposes of protecting OTHERS from the faults of OTHERS. This is fair and equitable because why should some injured person have to bear the burdens of medical costs, for example, when the fault for injury or damage lies with someone else?

But this isn't the case with health insurance. Me not having health insurance coverage, for example, doesn't make anyone else legally or morally liable for my medical bills! :bang: :bang: And this is why, Mr. President, the state doesn't penalize people who refuse auto coverage. People who don't want to get insurance or can't afford it, simply don't drive. End of story.

Furthermore, people in this country for decades have been unfairly bearing the burdens of others by paying for Medicaid. Why do we now suddenly need any more reform that essentially involves complete government regulation of the insurance and the health care industries? This is precisely what Socialism is all about -- everyone paying who has the means in order to subsidize those who can't or won't pay squat! Now, if this isn't bearing the burdens of others, then what is! :bang:

Finally this:

"I do think that giving a disincentive to insurance companies to offer Cadillac plans that don't make people healthier is part of the way that we're going to bring down health care costs for everybody over the long term," Obama said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

A few things: This disincentive will eventually force everyone onto the government plantation. Count on it.

Secondly, implicit in this statement is the fact that whatever the "public option" is -- it certainly isn't going to be a quality plan. No one will ever call the public option a "Cadillac plan".

And thirdly, the really scary part about this is what the next logical step in making people healthier? Doctors, nurses and hospitals don't make people healthier -- at least not by how BO means it. "Healthier" to him is PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, which would normally be our personal responsibility. And this maintenance would primarily involve our diets. Is the food industry, the agricultural industry next on the list for government takeover? Is this the next thing on his agenda? Is he going to command that the people must eat this, that and the other thing? And determine the amount of intake, too? If not, then how would "his [non-existent] plan" specifically make us healthier? How would the "public option" fundamentally differ from these "Cadillac plans" to make us all healthier? How is the government going to force us all into a better state of health?

And lastly, BO is another hypocrite! He looks down his condescending snout at the capitalistic system in which most of our health care is administered and calls private, high quality coverages "Cadillac plans". But I wonder if when his daughter was besieged with a bad case of meningitus, if he criticized the care she received, if he cast aspersions upon the caregivers at that time, if he maligned the insurance companies that footed most of the bills? I'm betting he didn't do any of the above when it came to his family -- when it touched is personal life.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090920/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_overhaul

Boxcar

[Tom]

He is a proven liar, so whatever he says, you are FOOL to believe him.
They cannot legally force us to buy anything - we need to push back so hard this SOS falls over.

The time to stop this government is is NOW.