What about Sea The Stars?

[pdxmike]

Quite possibly the best horse in the world. 5 group 1's in a row. Hope he shows up in the Classic.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Quite possibly the best horse in the world. 5 group 1's in a row. Hope he shows up in the Classic.





Not if it rains.

[pdxmike]

trying to embed his race today..FAIL

Does rain matter if he plans to run in the classic not the turf?

[pdxmike]

H6YSZ_eIfPY

I thought this was terribly impressive.

[Java Gold@TFT]

trying to embed his race today..FAIL

Does rain matter if he plans to run in the classic not the turf?
Who knows? He just seems to have excuses not to run if the weatherman says that conditions won't be less than perfect. Just my observation. I think he is atremendous individual. Like the people who bash Rachel because her owner won't run her on synth, his owner won't even point to the most important race in Europe because it rains in France in the fall. Greatness in Europe includes winning the Arc.

[Dick Powell]

After the race, the analysts on attheraces were not talking about him as one of the best but possibly the best ever. Team Coolmore threw everything at him and it didn't matter. Oxx seems to be against the BC but there's no guarantee that Paris will not be wet next month and at that point a trip over here would make sense. At this point of the year, he's ten pounds better than Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator were. If he doesn't come, Coolmore could win the Classic with Mastercraftsman and the Turf with Fame and Glory; that's how strong the competition was today. Yes, soft turf will be avoided at all costs but a race in the Classic followed by a trip to Hong Kong - where the owner is from - would put him in some exclusive company.

[OTM Al]

Quite possibly the best horse in the world. 5 group 1's in a row. Hope he shows up in the Classic.

I don't think there's any quite possibly about it. I do hope after running on the off going they will reconsider the Arc though. He has the quality to make an Arc-BC Classic double a reality...and may have even been able to do it on real dirt as well

[RobinFromIreland]

Sea The Stars' Guineas (8f), Derby (12f), Eclipse (10f) & International (10f) wins in full http://bit.ly/yJBLg + Irish Champion http://bit.ly/Lv4d6

He broke all-time track records in the Eclipse and the International.

True, he won't be asked to run on soft ground, but what is considered "good" ground here is what is considered soft in North America, and therefore soft/heavy ground in Ireland is truly bottomless and can destroy good horses.

He has won five Group 1s in a row. The only other horses in Europe to do that in the last 25 years are Giant's Causeway, Rock Of Gibraltar, and Duke Of Marmalade (all Coolmore horses). And not just any series of races, but the championship 3yo mile race, the championship 3yo classic mile and a half race, and the championship 3yo versus elders ten furlong mid-season race. Straight mile, left-handed, right-handed, flat, and undulating tracks - he's won on the them all.

For the International, you only have to look at previous winners to see how strong a race that is and the Irish Champion is often the deepest 10f G1 in the world each year.

He is half-brother to the great champion and (already) super-sire Galileo. His father was a champion miler and sired Ouija Board. His mother won the Arc. His siblings have won G1s all over the world. He has truly flawless conformation, a perfect constitution and if anyone has ever seen footage of him after a race surrounded by people, an unflappable disposition.

As a racehorse, he is exceptional; as a breeding prospect, utterly priceless.

[Java Gold@TFT]

No doubt that Sea The Stars is a brilliant runner but are we loking at the 2nd coming of Dancing Brave if he comes to the states or is he just that special?

[toetoe]

Is he better than Zarkava ?

[redshift1]

Greatest race in the last 30 years Sea The Stars vs RA in BC championship of course why do anything that might attract fans.

[Cat Thief]

Don't think SofS is best in the World. Might be best in Europe only. Also don't think he's as good as Rachel. Let him prove it on the dirt.

[Steve R]

Is he better than Zarkava ?
The folks at the Racing Post apparently think so. Her best was a rating of 129 (same as Rachel Alexandra's best so far) while Sea the Stars had a 134 going into yesterday's Champion Stakes. Based on what I saw in that race, he may move up a pound or so.

[Humph]

Don't think SofS is best in the World. Might be best in Europe only. Also don't think he's as good as Rachel. Let him prove it on the dirt.

Or how about her going to Europe and taking on the Euros on their terms ?

As for STS going to the BC , trainer John Oxx is saying that it's highly unlikely.

[RobinFromIreland]

Questions about whether he is better than Zarkava or Rachel, I, like anyone else, can't possibly know. Nor do I require him to race on dirt to prove anything, just like I don't need Rachel Alexandra to race on turf in Europe to appreciate her talent.

As to whether Sea The Stars will come to the BC remains to be seen. His trainer, John Oxx, has mentioned the Arc as his next target (ground conditions allowing) and has mooted the idea of the BC Classic being considered due to the success of European horses last year. Indeed, I wonder if his owners, natives of Hong Kong, would be tempted by the mid-December Hong Kong Cup, although that is a remote possibility.

Oxx tends to only race internationally if he feels his horse is truly world class. He has won the BC Mile before with the superb 3yo filly Ridgewood Pearl, and also won the E P Taylor Stakes and Beverly D with Timarida. Azamour was placed in the BC Turf if I remember correctly, and he may have had a few also-rans in some of the other BC turf races.

[zerosky]

The folks at the Racing Post apparently think so. Her best was a rating of 129 (same as Rachel Alexandra's best so far) while Sea the Stars had a 134 going into yesterday's Champion Stakes. Based on what I saw in that race, he may move up a pound or so.
For some reason the RPR given to horses in the States is about 5lb lower across the board from those given to horses running in the UK....

for example

Group 1 Winning Average RPR so far this year
UK= 123lb
US= 117lb

Group 2 Winning Average RPR so far this year
UK= 115lb
US= 110lb

adjusting RA's rating would give her a rating of 134lb level with STS

[Gone2Golf]

Sea The Stars clearly appears to be the best horse in the world. The quality of the races and competition is far superior to any of the colts running in the US. Rachel is a tremendous filly and deserves great credit for her outstanding accomplishments. But she's was getting weight and was life and death at 1 1/8 miles to beat Macho Again, who will never be confused with Raven's Pass, let alone Sea The Stars. I don't think she wants any part of Sea The Stars or other top colts at 1 1/4 miles.

Let's simply enjoy both horses for the champions that they are!

[Steve R]

For some reason the RPR given to horses in the States is about 5lb lower across the board from those given to horses running in the UK....

for example

Group 1 Winning Average RPR so far this year
UK= 123lb
US= 117lb

Group 2 Winning Average RPR so far this year
UK= 115lb
US= 110lb

adjusting RA's rating would give her a rating of 134lb level with STS
Could it have something to do with a general perception of how well so many European horses do when they go to the US? Obviously the translation from turf to dirt complicates matters and maybe the RP folks are generalizing about the differences in quality. Nevertheless, second and third tier Euros often win G1 races in the US, so maybe the RP view is somewhat skewed.

[zerosky]

Could it have something to do with a general perception of how well so many European horses do when they go to the US? Obviously the translation from turf to dirt complicates matters and maybe the RP folks are generalizing about the differences in quality. Nevertheless, second and third tier Euros often win G1 races in the US, so maybe the RP view is somewhat skewed.

I suspect they use two different databases,
When handicapping UK horses running in the US using RPR,
I always adjust the RPR of the US horses 5lb upwards.
It is inconcievable there is a difference of that magnitude between the two herds.

[toetoe]

Let the English not forget to downgrade all their sprinters, as a mere Stateside filly destroyed the field at Ascot.

[Steve R]

Sea The Stars clearly appears to be the best horse in the world. The quality of the races and competition is far superior to any of the colts running in the US. Rachel is a tremendous filly and deserves great credit for her outstanding accomplishments. But she's was getting weight and was life and death at 1 1/8 miles to beat Macho Again, who will never be confused with Raven's Pass, let alone Sea The Stars. I don't think she wants any part of Sea The Stars or other top colts at 1 1/4 miles.

Let's simply enjoy both horses for the champions that they are!
Those who should know something about the quality of European racing, the Racing Post, rated Raven's Pass at 128 when going beyond a mile. They currently rate Macho Again at 127. Rachel Alexandra is rated at 129. So you are entitled to your opinion and your comparisons, but don't confuse opinion with fact.

[KaiserSoze]

Damn good hawse that Sea The Stars, put on weight coming into yesterdays race also

[robert99]

I suspect they use two different databases,
When handicapping UK horses running in the US using RPR,
I always adjust the RPR of the US horses 5lb upwards.
It is inconcievable there is a difference of that magnitude between the two herds.

Racing Post are not trying at this stage to equate horse performances between two countries where horses hardly ever compete against each other.
As you say, they have a UK, France, Ireland, Oz, HK, USA etc databases.
Even when they do compete internationally the numbers are too small to do much with in terms of comparing whole horse populations.
Even if you take UK horses alone, the ratings which are constantly updated through the season, creep upwards. At the end of the season they are scaled down statistically so that one generation is not rated too differently from another.
When numbers are concerned you have to look behind the scenes as to exactly how they are assembled. Trying to capture the ability of a horse by a single number is a pretty stupid idea anyway.

The International Horseracing Federation try to equate race performances of top horses from country to country. Even then it is done by committee.
They have RA on 122 and STS on 131. Timeform have STS on 140 provisionally - so the numbers can vary hugely and 5 pounds is nothing.

http://www.horseracingintfed.com/home.asp?lang=e

[Tom]

Those who should know something about the quality of European racing, the Racing Post, rated Raven's Pass at 128 when going beyond a mile. They currently rate Macho Again at 127. Rachel Alexandra is rated at 129. So you are entitled to your opinion and your comparisons, but don't confuse opinion with fact.

RPR are FACTS?
I thought there were opinions, too.
Fact is when they hit the finish line. All else is opinion.

[Steve R]

RPR are FACTS?
I thought there were opinions, too.
Fact is when they hit the finish line. All else is opinion.
The reference to "facts" was in the context of the original poster's insistence that he was absolutely right about his position, not to RPR ratings. Every evaluation of ability in racing is opinion - both the poster's and RPR's - but the poster was so insistent that he needed to be reminded.

[gm10]

Will he show up? All major bookmakers and exchanges have Sea The Stars as the favorite for the Classic - so it's not out of the question.

http://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing/ante-post-racing/flat/breeders-cup-classic

RPR take time into account, but they are adjusted for the class of the race (a.o.). They certainly aren't purely computer-generated. If you want time-based ratings, use Topspeed ratings (also available on RP).

The problem with STS is that he has made it look SO easy, that you need to wonder how good Mastercraftsmen and Fame And Glory and other 3yo's actually are. I think it's a good bunch (Mastercraftsmen already finished in front of Conduit f.e.), but STS looks so superior that there must be a tiny chance that they aren't. But right now he looks like the best horse in the world.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I've been chewing on this question for a while.What Zarkava did last season opened my eyes a little.She was great.

But again I come to what measures a great horse.Surfaces isolate contenders IMO.Dirt is the measure of a champion IMO and that we pay the big bucks to graded stakes winners in this country makes us the mark to set.

But here is where I muddle my values.Say for instance Sea The Stars wins the Arc De Triomph and the Breeder's Cup Classic???

That would be a great accomplishment.And I'd be torn between him and RA.Despite the surfaces.

[gm10]

I've been chewing on this question for a while.What Zarkava did last season opened my eyes a little.She was great.

But again I come to what measures a great horse.Surfaces isolate contenders IMO.Dirt is the measure of a champion IMO and that we pay the big bucks to graded stakes winners in this country makes us the mark to set.

But here is where I muddle my values.Say for instance Sea The Stars wins the Arc De Triomph and the Breeder's Cup Classic???

That would be a great accomplishment.And I'd be torn between him and RA.Despite the surfaces.

This isn't really true. Only 10% of the top 50 richest races are on the dirt. And that will become even less with Nad Al Sheba switching to a synthetic track.

I don't think that dirt makes the champions. Turf's been used for 4 centuries. Whether dirt can ever make it that long remains to be seen.

[PaceAdvantage]

Only 10% of the top 50 richest races are on the dirt.I'd like to see this broken out in detail...any links out there?

[Tom]

Here's the top of the list....still looking for more.

http://royal-ascot-bets.com/world%E2%80%99s-richest-horse-races

[cj]

I'd like to see this broken out in detail...any links out there?

I imagine that has fluctuated...a lot...with the decline of the dollar overseas.

Are you counting fake dirt as dirt, or something else? How many of those races are in Hong Kong / Japan and limited to outsiders?

[robert99]

I'd like to see this broken out in detail...any links out there?

For 2008 the top 50 Gr1 above $500,000:
USA has 11 races, 22%.


Emirates Airline Dubai World Cup

UAE NAD 29 March 2008 2000 Meters (D) 3U $ 6,000,000 G1


Qatar Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe

FR LCH 05 October 2008 2400 Meters (T) 3U € 4,000,000 (*$5,839,200) G1


Dubai Duty Free

UAE NAD 29 March 2008 1777 Meters (T) 3U $ 5,000,000 G1


Nakheel Dubai Sheema Classic

UAE NAD 29 March 2008 2400 Meters (T) 4U $ 5,000,000 G1


Breeders' Cup Classic

USA OSA 25 October 2008 10 Furlongs (D) 3U $ 5,000,000 G1


Japan Cup

JPN TOK 30 November 2008 2400 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 533,500,000 (*$4,787,096) G1


Emirates Melbourne Cup

AUS FLE 04 November 2008 3200 Meters (T) 3U $A 5,000,000 (*$4,382,500) G1


Arima Kinen Grand Prix

JPN NAK 28 December 2008 2500 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 383,400,000 (*$3,440,248) G1


Emirates Airlines Breeders' Cup Turf

USA OSA 25 October 2008 12 Furlongs (T) 3U $ 3,000,000 G1


Tattersall's Cox Plate

AUS MOO 25 October 2008 2040 Meters (T) 3U $A 3,100,000 (*$2,717,150) G1


Cathay Pacific Hong Kong Cup

HK ST 14 December 2008 2000 Meters (T) 3U HK$ 20,000,000 (*$2,566,000) G1


Takarazuka Kinen

JPN HSN 29 June 2008 2200 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 281,560,000 (*$2,526,438) G1


Spring Tenno Sho

JPN KYO 04 May 2008 3200 Meters (T) 4U ¥ 281,560,000 (*$2,526,438) G1


Tenno Sho

JPN TOK 02 November 2008 2000 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 281,560,000 (*$2,526,438) G1

Japan Cup Dirt

JPN HSN 07 December 2008 1800 Meters (D) 3U ¥ 277,900,000 (*$2,493,597) G1


Vodafone Epsom Derby

ENG EPS 07 June 2008 12.05 Furlongs (T) 03 £ 1,250,000 (*$2,483,750) G1


BMW Caulfield Cup

AUS CAU 18 October 2008 2400 Meters (T) 3U $A 2,500,000 (*$2,191,250) G1


Prix du Jockey Club

FR CHY 01 June 2008 2100 Meters (T) 03 € 1,500,000 (*$2,189,700) G1


Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby

IRE CUR 29 June 2008 12 Furlongs (T) 03 € 1,500,000 (*$2,189,700) G1


Cathay Pacific Hong Kong Mile

HK ST 14 December 2008 1600 Meters (T) 3U HK$ 16,000,000 (*$2,052,800) G1


Pattison Canadian International S.

CAN WO 04 October 2008 12 Furlongs (T) 3U CN$ 2,000,000 (*$2,012,600) G1


Gulf News Dubai Golden Shaheen

UAE NAD 29 March 2008 1200 Meters (D) 3U $ 2,000,000 G1


Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands

USA CD 03 May 2008 10 Furlongs (D) 03 $ 2,000,000 G1


Bessemer Trust Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies

USA OSA 24 October 2008 8.5 Furlongs (D) 02
f $ 2,000,000 G1


Bessemer Trust Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies

USA OSA 24 October 2008 8.5 Furlongs (D) 02
f $ 2,000,000 G1


Breeders' Cup Ladies Classic

USA OSA 24 October 2008 9 Furlongs (D) 3U
fm $ 2,000,000 G1

Breeders' Cup Mile

USA OSA 25 October 2008 8 Furlongs (T) 3U $ 2,000,000 G1


Emirates Airlines Breeders' Cup Filly and Mare Turf

USA OSA 24 October 2008 11 Furlongs (T) 3U
fm $ 2,000,000 G1


Sentient Flight Group Breeders' Cup Sprint

USA OSA 25 October 2008 6 Furlongs (D) 3U $ 2,000,000 G1


Mile Championship

JPN KYO 23 November 2008 1600 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 213,000,000 (*$1,911,249) G1

Yasuda Kinen

JPN TOK 08 June 2008 1600 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 213,000,000 (*$1,911,249) G1


The Takamatsunomiya Kinen

JPN CYO 30 March 2008 1200 Meters (T) 4U ¥ 202,350,000 (*$1,815,687) G1


Sprinters S.

JPN NAK 05 October 2008 1200 Meters (T) 3U ¥ 202,350,000 (*$1,815,687) G1


February S.

JPN TOK 24 February 2008 1600 Meters (D) 4U ¥ 201,020,000 (*$1,803,752) G1


Audemars Piguet Queen Elizabeth II Cup

HK ST 27 April 2008 2000 Meters (T) 3U HK$ 14,000,000 (*$1,796,200) G1


Cathay Pacific Hong Kong Vase

HK ST 14 December 2008 2400 Meters (T) 3U HK$ 14,000,000 (*$1,796,200) G1


Queen Elizabeth II Commemorative Cup

JPN KYO 16 November 2008 2200 Meters (T) 3U
fm ¥ 192,700,000 (*$1,729,097) G1


Cathay Pacific Hong Kong Sprint

HK ST 14 December 2008 1200 Meters (T) 3U HK$ 12,000,000 (*$1,539,600) G1


King George Vi And Queen Elizabeth S.

ENG ASC 26 July 2008 12 Furlongs (T) 3U £ 750,000 (*$1,490,250) G1


Premio Derby Italiano

ITY ROM 11 May 2008 2200 Meters (T) 03 € 1,001,000 (*$1,461,260) G1


Tattersalls Millions Irish Champion S.

IRE LEO 07 September 2008 10 Furlongs (T) 3U € 1,000,000 (*$1,459,800) G1

AAMI Victoria Derby

AUS FLE 01 November 2008 2500 Meters (T) 03 $A 1,500,000 (*$1,314,750) G1


Prix de Diane

FR CHY 08 June 2008 2100 Meters (T) 03
f € 800,000 (*$1,167,840) G1


Juddmonte International S.

ENG NEW 23 August 2008 10.39 Furlongs (T) 3U £ 550,000 (*$1,092,850) G1


Champions Mile

HK ST 27 April 2008 1600 Meters (T) 3U HK$ 8,000,000 (*$1,026,400) G1


E. P. Taylor S.

CAN WO 04 October 2008 10 Furlongs (T) 3U
fm CN$ 1,000,000 (*$1,006,300) G1


Woodbine Mile S.

CAN WO 07 September 2008 8 Furlongs (T) 3U CN$ 1,000,000 (*$1,006,300) G1


Arlington Million S.

USA AP 09 August 2008 10 Furlongs (T) 3U $ 1,000,000 G1


Belmont S.

USA BEL 07 June 2008 12 Furlongs (D) 03 $ 1,000,000 G1

[gm10]

I'd like to see this broken out in detail...any links out there?

I'll take a look when I come home. It's at the back of his book "Global Racing".

[gm10]

I'd like to see this broken out in detail...any links out there?

can't find a link, but here are the numbers:

2007: 11 of the 50 richest races were on the dirt (22%)
2009: 6/50 (12%)
2010: 9/50 (18%)

(2009/2010 is ignoring FX effects)

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks robert and gm for posting the info...

[FenceBored]

Premio Derby Italiano

ITY ROM 11 May 2008 2200 Meters (T) 03 € 1,001,000 (*$1,461,260) G1


Tattersalls Millions Irish Champion S.

IRE LEO 07 September 2008 10 Furlongs (T) 3U € 1,000,000 (*$1,459,800) G1



:D The purse on the Premio Derby Italiano is great. 'Your race is worth 1 million Euros? Well, OURS is worth 1 million 1 thousand Euros, so there.'

[gm10]

:D The purse on the Premio Derby Italiano is great. 'Your race is worth 1 million Euros? Well, OURS is worth 1 million 1 thousand Euros, so there.'

haha
weird

this year the purse was 814K euro

[curiosity]

Sea The Stars has now beaten: The Irish Derby winner Fame And Glory; St James's Palace Stakes winner and Irish Guineas winner Mastercraftsman; Sussex Stakes winner Rip Van and Breeder's Cup Marathon winner Conduit. In view of that there is in fact absolutely nothing left for him to beat this side of the waters. The ground conditions in Ireland for the Champion Stakes were not his optimum (good to yielding) according to John Oxx but he went on to record a fast time over 10 furlongs 2m 3.90 (0.30 fast). The Arc is a possibility for him in France as is the Champion Stakes in Newmarket and the Breeder's Cup. Any race, any ground, not a problem for this unique equine. He raced on soft ground as a juvenile and his dam Urban Sea won the Arc in muddy conditions. The class of this animal outweighs any negatives that undesirable ground conditions could throw at him.

[robert99]

:D The purse on the Premio Derby Italiano is great. 'Your race is worth 1 million Euros? Well, OURS is worth 1 million 1 thousand Euros, so there.'

Figures were the official ones for 2008.
In 2009 the official Irish race purse was 1M Euros and the Italian one 814K Euros.
Things change and that is why you give the year.
2008 is the latest full year with data to answer the question raised by Mike.
If your ego is tied up with races run by other people and paid for by other people, then I am sorry for you.

[FenceBored]

Figures were the official ones for 2008.
In 2009 the official Irish race purse was 1M Euros and the Italian one 814K Euros.
Things change and that is why you give the year.
2008 is the latest full year with data to answer the question raised by Mike.
If your ego is tied up with races run by other people and paid for by other people, then I am sorry for you.

So do you think those who manage race meets don't feel themselves to be in competition with each other, or that purse amounts for prestigous races don't reflect such competition?

[46zilzal]

No doubt that Sea The Stars is a brilliant runner but are we loking at the 2nd coming of Dancing Brave if he comes to the states or is he just that special?
For their sake one hopes he doesn't run like that one did versus Manila and Theatrical

[Humph]

For their sake one hopes he doesn't run like that one did versus Manila and Theatrical

The Euros have almost certainly grown a little wiser in recent years with their challenges - if they're coming ,they now plan their horses' campaigns with the BC in mind ( something John Oxx hasn't done with Sea The Stars, hence the reluctancy to run at SA), and tend not to run if running is going to be an afterthought.

[Gorgeous George]

Sea the Stars wont run in the breeders cup classic so everyone must forget about that prospect. John Oxx has campaigned him for the Arc but only if the ground is suitable if not then he will be retired. This is a special horse who through all of his group 1's easily beat the opposition with minimum fuss. The 2000 Guineas field he beat has produced numerous group 1 and 2 winners. STS is a monster who will win the Arc and become an all-time great. People are concerned about the distance but he won the Derby over 1m 4f and the winning time was close to recent winning Arc times. People are also concerned about the ground but he won his first race on soft ground albeit over 7f. The reason Oxx hates running him on soft at longer distance his because his sire Cape Cross was a miler and STS has so much speed that Oxx doubts his stamina. IMO i think he would win over any ground, at any distance against any horse in the world.

The winner of this years Breeders cup classic is RIP VAN WINKLE. This horse was beaten by STS in the guineas and the derby but ran him close in the coral eclipse were both finished ahead of older horses like conduit. RVW then went on to win the group1 sussex stakes very impressively and not stopping at the line looks like an extra 2f wont bother him at all. He's had a alot of trouble with his feet and this has hindered his preparation in previous races but if Aidan can get him just right then he will win the classic.

[gm10]

Sea the Stars wont run in the breeders cup classic so everyone must forget about that prospect. John Oxx has campaigned him for the Arc but only if the ground is suitable if not then he will be retired. This is a special horse who through all of his group 1's easily beat the opposition with minimum fuss. The 2000 Guineas field he beat has produced numerous group 1 and 2 winners. STS is a monster who will win the Arc and become an all-time great. People are concerned about the distance but he won the Derby over 1m 4f and the winning time was close to recent winning Arc times. People are also concerned about the ground but he won his first race on soft ground albeit over 7f. The reason Oxx hates running him on soft at longer distance his because his sire Cape Cross was a miler and STS has so much speed that Oxx doubts his stamina. IMO i think he would win over any ground, at any distance against any horse in the world.

The winner of this years Breeders cup classic is RIP VAN WINKLE. This horse was beaten by STS in the guineas and the derby but ran him close in the coral eclipse were both finished ahead of older horses like conduit. RVW then went on to win the group1 sussex stakes very impressively and not stopping at the line looks like an extra 2f wont bother him at all. He's had a alot of trouble with his feet and this has hindered his preparation in previous races but if Aidan can get him just right then he will win the classic.

There are some parallels between RIP and Raven's Pass. I wouldn't rule out the Americans though. They have a strong bunch that could compete in the Classic (stronger than last year imo).

[Gorgeous George]

There are some parallels between RIP and Raven's Pass. I wouldn't rule out the Americans though. They have a strong bunch that could compete in the Classic (stronger than last year imo).

The only horse capable of upsetting the euro's is summer bird the other contenders like macho again and life is sweet are poor. I would like to hear your views on the american challengers?

[WinterTriangle]

Quite possibly the best horse in the world. 5 group 1's in a row. Hope he shows up in the Classic.

On top of being good, he sounds frighteningly "push button", zoom-zoom!

"When Kinane asked Sea the Stars to go, the response was both immediate and electrifying. He flew by the Ballydoyle pair with little difficulty and without feeling the whip...."

Good golly.

[gm10]

The only horse capable of upsetting the euro's is summer bird the other contenders like macho again and life is sweet are poor. I would like to hear your views on the american challengers?

I think there are plenty of challengers. Macho Again would not be in my list, though. He's good, but if RA hadn't been in the woodward, hardly anyone would take him very seriously.

IF STS shows up for the Classic, he'll be my favourite too, but otherwise Gio Ponti (yes), Rail Trip, Richard's Kid, Einstein, Summer Bird and even Mine That Bird all look a cut above what the Americans had to offer last year (apart from the out-of-form Curlin). Even Quality Road shouldn't be discounted imo. Battle Of Hastings would be a worthy contender if connections chose the classic. And whatever happened to Square Eddie? He could win any race if they could just keep him sound.

The Europeans are getting a bit cocky after their tremendous success last year - however, it is my firm believe that Ravens Pass and Henry were up against one strong but out-of-form, and a bunch of moderate American horses. Ignore Muhannak (which is easy to do because it was basically a freak result), and all the other European wins were on the turf.

[Humph]

The Europeans are getting a bit cocky after their tremendous success last year - however, it is my firm believe that Ravens Pass and Henry were up against one strong but out-of-form, and a bunch of moderate American horses. Ignore Muhannak (which is easy to do because it was basically a freak result), and all the other European wins were on the turf.

They went 5 for 7 for the races they contested on the Saturday ( at least 2 of the 5 were on the pro-ride ) , and the two races they didn't win they were represented by two virtual no-hopers ( one in each of the two races).

[gm10]

They went 5 for 7 for the races they contested on the Saturday ( at least 2 of the 5 were on the pro-ride ) , and the two races they didn't win they were represented by two virtual no-hopers ( one in each of the two races).

Yes they won the Classic - but they had three very good horses in there, the duke was a spent force, already in the arc, but especially ravens was at the top of his game. The Marathon was a freak result, Muhannak is a hack, he was again beaten thos week (polytrack at Wolverhampton). Watch the winner of that race btw, Gitano Hernandez or something, he's a good horse for the Marathon.

[gm10]

Yes they won the Classic - but they had three very good horses in there, the duke was a spent force, already in the arc, but especially ravens was at the top of his game. The Marathon was a freak result, Muhannak is a hack, he was again beaten thos week (polytrack at Wolverhampton). Watch the winner of that race btw, Gitano Hernandez or something, he's a good horse for the Marathon.

I meant GITANO HERNANDO http://www.attheraces.com/form.aspx?type=H&id=2465082&dte=2009-09-20&npl=yes.

You can watch his last race if you register (Free).