Old School Infielders VERSUS Modern Infielders

[andymays]

To start the thread off I'd like to make a couple of points. I believe the Modern infielder (Ozzie Smith) appears to be more skilled than the Old School infielder (Mark Belanger).

I have noticed one thing about the grooming of the infield and that is it is very rare to see a bad hop on the dirt portion of the infield anymore. Probably better science/maintenance on the part of the groundskeeper I guess.



I would say that Mark Belanger epitomizes the Old School infielder in that he did everything correctly like getting in front of the ball and setting and throwing although he could certainly make a tough play when called for. When I was growing up in the 70's Mark Belangers style would be the way coaches at the time would teach fielding for the most part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Belanger

Excerpt:

Mark Henry Belanger (June 8, 1944 – October 6, 1998) was an American shortstop in Major League Baseball who played almost his entire career with the Baltimore Orioles. A defensive standout, he won eight Gold Glove Awards between 1969 and 1978, leading the American League in assists and fielding percentage three times each, and retired with the highest career fielding average by an AL shortstop (.977). He set franchise records for career games, assists and double plays as a shortstop, all of which were later broken by Cal Ripken, Jr. After his playing career, he became an official with the Major League Baseball Players Association.


Ozzie Smith on the other hand would represent the beginning of the era of the Modern infielder. When he came up nobody had seen anything like it. I attended the game where he arguably made his best play ever.

Smith made what he rated as his best play ever when he dove to his left to snare a grounder hit by Atlanta's Jeff Burroughs. The ball took a bad hop and skipped behind Smith's head, so Smith promptly stuck out his bare right hand to snag the ball before popping to his feet and throwing Burroughs out at first base. Ozzie Smith started the era of the modern infielder in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozzie_Smith

Excerpt:

Osborne Earl "Ozzie" Smith (born December 26, 1954) is an American professional baseball player who was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2002. Nicknamed "The Wizard," Smith played shortstop for the San Diego Padres and St. Louis Cardinals in Major League Baseball, winning the National League Gold Glove Award for defensive play at shortstop for 13 consecutive seasons. A 15-time All-Star, Smith accumulated 2,460 hits and 580 stolen bases during his career, and won the National League Silver Slugger Award as the best hitter at shortstop in 1987.

[Marlin]

One of the biggest reasons you may never see a 4oo hitter again.

[andymays]

One of the biggest reasons you may never see a 4oo hitter again.


Good Point.

[cj's dad]

MB was a joy to watch. He made the difficult look routine. All field - no hit - though if my memory serves me correctly, he wore out Nolan Ryan.

[melman]

Have you guys seen Jimmy Rollins play the shortstop position the last few years? Talk about a guy getting to balls that others watch go into the outfield as hits! So far this year with 34 games left he has only three yes (3) errors. Not to mention that he has a cannon for an arm. I've always wondered about fielding pct as a indicator of a players defensive abiltiy. It does not take into account the players range. There has been several attempts to put a number on that but it's a tough call. The year Rollins got his MVP award over Holliday I think was in part how many runs Rollins saves with his great fielding ability.

[andymays]

Have you guys seen Jimmy Rollins play the shortstop position the last few years? Talk about a guy getting to balls that others watch go into the outfield as hits! So far this year with 34 games left he has only three yes (3) errors. Not to mention that he has a cannon for an arm. I've always wondered about fielding pct as a indicator of a players defensive abiltiy. It does not take into account the players range. There has been several attempts to put a number on that but it's a tough call. The year Rollins got his MVP award over Holliday I think was in part how many runs Rollins saves with his great fielding ability.


Guys with more range tend to have a few more errors so fielding percentage alone doesn't tell the whole story.

For middle infielders hanging tough in a double play situation is another instance where fielding percentage doesn't tell the whole story. Not all these guys have the stones to get a throw off when the spikes are coming at your legs!

[Valuist]

Ozzie Smith the MODERN infielder? He started playing in the late 70s. He's been retired for years. I know Belanger played into the late 70s. One of the reasons you don't see many defensive Belangers is that unless a guy (even a shortstop) is perfect defensively, you can't keep a .200 hitter in your lineup. Not in this era. Maybe that will change if they get drugs out of the game.

[andymays]

Ozzie Smith the MODERN infielder? He started playing in the late 70s. He's been retired for years. I know Belanger played into the late 70s. One of the reasons you don't see many defensive Belangers is that unless a guy (even a shortstop) is perfect defensively, you can't keep a .200 hitter in your lineup. Not in this era. Maybe that will change if they get drugs out of the game.


They all copy the Ozzie Smith style of fielding even to this day. I meant that he was the beginning of the modern style of fielding.

[cj's dad]

They all copy the Ozzie Smith style of fielding even to this day. I meant that he was the beginning of the modern style of fielding.

And Cal Ripken Jr. was what ??

[andymays]

And Cal Ripken Jr. was what ??


Cal Ripken was an outstanding fielder and ballplayer and Hall of Famer. I don't think you could say his fielding style ushered in any trend in fielding. His fielding ability and his ability to constitently make a successful acrobatic plays was nowhere near an Ozzie Smith.

[bisket]

MB was a joy to watch. He made the difficult look routine. All field - no hit - though if my memory serves me correctly, he wore out Nolan Ryan.
sorta like jeff reboulet and randy johnson. there must be something to the little no hit guys wearing out the strike out pitchers. :ThmbUp:

[Marlin]

Ozzie Smith the MODERN infielder? He started playing in the late 70s. He's been retired for years. I know Belanger played into the late 70s. One of the reasons you don't see many defensive Belangers is that unless a guy (even a shortstop) is perfect defensively, you can't keep a .200 hitter in your lineup. Not in this era. Maybe that will change if they get drugs out of the game.See Nick Punto!:)

[Java Gold@TFT]

Just my personal observations. Between traing, steroids, weigth lifting, pitchers profiling, etc, etc. the current hitters absolutely hit the ball harder while pitches are generally becoming faster. There used to be one Nolan Ryan who could throw 100 mph but now there are many every year and even just the good pitchers are in the mid 90's. The ball comes faster and the ball leaves the bat faster. That leads to more reall hard shots in the infield. In order to get to those balls the current infielders have to make spectacular looking plays. No doubt that they are very athletic to do it but I really believe that that is one of the reasons for the perceived difference. Belanger and Robinson had more time to get to the avergae ground ball. That doesn't mean that Brooks wouldn't make any highlight film - it's just not the average play where he could get his body in front of the ball. Ozzie was one of the first to have the hot shots come off of the polycrap (oops, astroturf). The ball came at him a lot faster. I'm not positive if his range was greater as much as he had to get there quicker.

JMO -nothing one way or another against either group of players.

Interesting insight linked through ESPN.com:

http://www.popsci.com/node/19337

[mountainman]

Thinking back on my baseball career, most of what we were taught about fielding seems like nonsense. When does an infielder have time to drop to the ground and use his lower leg as a backstop for the approaching grounder? Were we supposed to field with our shins? And what about the CONSTANT admonition to catch the ball with two hands? I'd like to go back in time and challenge those coaches to show me ONE pro outfielder who does that. A baseball is too SMALL to catch with two hands, and attempting to steer and stabilize the glove with the bare hand always felt so awkward. My own experience makes me wonder how many talented young players are still being stifled by too conservative coaching.

[andymays]

Thinking back on my baseball career, most of what we were taught about fielding seems like nonsense. When does an infielder have time to drop to the ground and use his lower leg as a backstop for the approaching grounder? Were we supposed to field with our shins? And what about the CONSTANT admonition to catch the ball with two hands? I'd like to go back in time and challenge those coaches to show me ONE pro outfielder who does that. A baseball is too SMALL to catch with two hands, and attempting to steer and stabilize the glove with the bare hand always felt so awkward. My own experience makes me wonder how many talented young players are still being stifled by too conservative coaching.


Exactly! :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

mountainman:

It is all about reflexes. If you have the reflexive ability and timing it is very easy to field a ground ball with two hands.

A good drill for the infield is to have the infielders field the ball barehanded, (without gloves). Initially, the field balls tossed by hand and graduate by fielding weakly to medium strength ground balls hit off a bat.

Two handed feilding is very do able. You would have seen alot of it int the recently excellent LLWS.

I agree with you the technique of dropping one-knee to the ground, on all ground balls, is incorrect.

[Valuist]

One of the biggest reasons you may never see a 4oo hitter again.

That and the split finger fastball, the slider, the cut fastball and relief pitching.....those pitches weren't around the last time a hitter hit .400 and relievers were rarely used. Relief pitchers were basically just guys not good enough to start.

[Show Me the Wire]

That and the split finger fastball, the slider, the cut fastball and relief pitching.....those pitches weren't around the last time a hitter hit .400 and relievers were rarely used. Relief pitchers were basically just guys not good enough to start.


No but they did have the spit ball, etc. The specialization of pitching is the biggest impact. A hard thrower can come in for an inning or two near the end of the game, which is to the disadvantage of the hitter.

[Jeff P]

One of the biggest reasons you may never see a 4oo hitter again.Ever look at some of the "gloves" from 100 years ago? Most look like they were barely more than what you'd put on today if you wanted to trim some roses. Every time I see one of those things behind some glass somewhere I think about the Wilson A2000 I still have and shake my head.


-jp

.

[BillW]

I remember when I was young (mid sixties) hearing Bill Mazeroski say that he liked a small glove because he could get rid of the ball quicker on a double play. My strategy was to have a glove big enough to not have to use the palm of my hand to catch a line drive! :lol:

[Jeff P]

Seriously though, when I think about the term modern infielder I picture guys like A-Rod, Jeter, Teixeira, Pujols, Thome, Ortiz... guys that could be so dangerous at the plate they make opposing pitchers change the way they pitch to a team's entire lineup. When I think back to the '60's and '70's I remember outfielders with that ability... But infielders?... Rare.

-jp

.

[BillW]

Seriously though, when I think about the term modern infielder I picture guys like A-Rod, Jeter, Teixeira, Pujols, Thome, Ortiz... guys that could be so dangerous at the plate they make opposing pitchers change the way they pitch to a team's entire lineup. When I think back to the '60's and '70's I remember outfielders with that ability... But infielders?... Rare.

-jp

.

SS and 2B maybe

1st and 3rd has always been populated with sluggers

Bill White
Willie Stargell
Willie McCovey
O. Cepeda
E. Matthews
M. Schmidt
E. Banks (started out at SS)
R. Santo
K. Boyer
C. Boyer

etc.

[Jeff P]

Bill, You're right.

50 home run club as of 2008:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_home_run_club

I was surprised by the number of infielders who've hit 50 hr in a season.



-jp

.

[andymays]

Seriously though, when I think about the term modern infielder I picture guys like A-Rod, Jeter, Teixeira, Pujols, Thome, Ortiz... guys that could be so dangerous at the plate they make opposing pitchers change the way they pitch to a team's entire lineup. When I think back to the '60's and '70's I remember outfielders with that ability... But infielders?... Rare.

-jp

.


I probably should have specified middle infielders but that was why I used the two examples in the thread starter. The big home run guys that played second base or shortstop seemed to come around during the steroid era although in his time Joe Morgan hit quite a few home runs (35 was his best). He also used a very small glove! Morgan also had that great "chicken wing" move while he was waiting for the pitch. He could play some ball!

[BillW]

It seems that the old time stereotype was that the productive/power bats were "on the corners" - 1st and 3rd and the corner outfield spots.With a few exceptions the CF position seemed to be more of a speed leadoff type. I guess that speed was necessary in the old parks. I can remember the old left center alley in Pittsburgh was 457. They used to keep the batting cage out there in the field of play and it rarely got in the way. :D

[andymays]

The first middle infielder I remember that started hitting home runs out of nowhere was Bobby Grich who played for the Angels. In 1978 he hits 6 home runs and 1979 he goes to 30. I was dumbfounded at the time but now we know what the reason for the power surge could probably be attributed to.

[bisket]

The first middle infielder I remember that started hitting home runs out of nowhere was Bobby Grich who played for the Angels. In 1978 he hits 6 home runs and 1979 he goes to 30. I was dumbfounded at the time but now we know what the reason for the power surge could probably be attributed to.
belanger's former dp partner. earl would have loved for grich to have done that for the o's