Have some of us become immune to Rachel's achievements?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm surprised just how lost some people are when it comes to what Rachel has accomplished thus far (and what she will accomplish shortly).

Maybe it's because some have just become numb to what she has done, and have now come to expect such things as the NORM.

To even ponder that anyone else has any sort of legitimate claim to Horse of the Year at this point is patently absurd.

Here we have a 3yo filly that has absolutely decimated her own kind, ventured outside of her division (1 standard deviation) and beaten 3yo males TWICE...once in the Preakness and once in the Haskell.

Now she is about to venture outside of her division again (this time TWO standard deviations, if you will) and take on older males.

Zenyatta could beat her usual crop of hapless older F&M one zillion more times this year AND take the "BC Ladies Handicap" and STILL not have any claim to Horse of the Year in my opinion.

In order to have ANY claim to HOY, Zenyatta must meet and beat Rachel. End of story.

As for anyone else having any claim to HOY, it's not even on my radar...but that's me....

[lamboguy]

if anyone has any doubts about her wait till her next race. she is training better than ever right now!

[Quagmire]

Special horse, no doubt. Is it too soon to mention her with some of the all time greats?

[GaryG]

She sure brings out the negativity, even more than Big Brown did. She either had nothing behind her, was tiring at the end, is ducking the Travers, and so on. When she drills them in the Woodward these folks will be back with more. I agree - HOY case closed.

[SoCalCircuit]

Theres no doubt that Rachel is the leading contender for HOY at the moment, domilishing any 3 yo fillies and even beating the boys twice (and soon likely 3x). However I dont understand when the HOY conversation begins, only Zenyatta and RA are mentioned as contenders. Has everyone forgotten that Gio Ponti has one 4 G1s in a row? Not only that, at different distances ranging from 1 mile to 1 3/8. To go along with that versatility, he won a G3 on the synthetics in late December. Now, maybe this isn't up to Rachel's resume, but no doubt Gio Ponti should be in the HOY conversation long before Zenyatta. If Gio Ponti were to go on to the BCC and win, that would undoubtedly be my vote for HOY.

[castaway01]

I'm surprised just how lost some people are when it comes to what Rachel has accomplished thus far (and what she will accomplish shortly).

Maybe it's because some have just become numb to what she has done, and have now come to expect such things as the NORM.

To even ponder that anyone else has any sort of legitimate claim to Horse of the Year at this point is patently absurd.

Here we have a 3yo filly that has absolutely decimated her own kind, ventured outside of her division (1 standard deviation) and beaten 3yo males TWICE...once in the Preakness and once in the Haskell.

Now she is about to venture outside of her division again (this time TWO standard deviations, if you will) and take on older males.

Zenyatta could beat her usual crop of hapless older F&M one zillion more times this year AND take the "BC Ladies Handicap" and STILL not have any claim to Horse of the Year in my opinion.

In order to have ANY claim to HOY, Zenyatta must meet and beat Rachel. End of story.

As for anyone else having any claim to HOY, it's not even on my radar...but that's me....

I totally agree. I think it's because we're comparing her to horses from 100 years ago (or what we think we know about that time) and saying "yeah but Rachel didn't run 15 times in eight weeks", forgetting that horses didn't travel as much then and often faced small fields of local horses (take a look at the past performances of some of the past champions). If you look back through history, it's very tough to find fillies and mares who have beaten top-level colts twice, much less in the times she's been running vs. both fillies and colts and the dominant fashion she's defeated all comers. She's been amazing and I'm glad I've been able to see it.

[Stevie Belmont]

She has already etched a place in history as an all-time great in my opinion...That Kentucky Oaks was something else, who will forget that preformance?

Preakness and Haskell wins were brilliant, but that Mother Goose effort was something else, an effortless, dominating win in which if she had been asked for who, knows how fast she might have run...

Just look at all the horses she has defeated that have comeback to win. That just tells you she is something else.

Hope she just keeps rolling along and stays in good order. It's a treat to watch her go.

Next week should be something else...A win there, no matter the field will most certainly solidify her as an all-time great...

[Imriledup]

Great post.


Most people don't watch tape and if they did, they wouldn't know what they were looking at to begin with.

People are still laughingly comparing her in the same breath as Ruffian. No doubt the Ruf was a strong performer in her generation, but she never beat males. I think that you are right about the numbness, she does what she does so easy that people don't realize what she's doing isn't normal. Its like Usain Bolt, he's so far and away the fastest human who's ever run down a racetrack that people just don't know how to quantify what he's doing. He's destroying competition and doing it while not even running full out. He's just jogging and eating an ice cream cone while laughing and beating the best sprinters in the world by what is equivalent to Secretariat type margins.

Rachel is winning a grade 1 race vs males from post 13 and then beating a strong field at the Jersey Shore in a laughingly easy manner.

People love to hold onto the past and some will absolutely refuse to 'rate' a great horse until its career is long over. People won't give Rachel her due because she's still racing and writing her legacy.

To the people who want to hold on dearly to the 'she beat nothing' battle cry, that doesn't matter because she won by TWENTY lengths in multiple grade 1 races. Go back into the history of thoroughbred racing and find me another horse who won 2 grade 1 races by 20 lengths. Did Secretariat win two grade one races by 20 or more? We know he won one, did he win another? Ruffian's biggest margin of victory was 13 i think, not counting her win vs maidens, she won one race by 13.

I'd love to know what other horses in the history of horse racing have won two grade one races by those margins. Maybe Man O War did it, but you have to go back to the turn of the century to find it.

[tucker6]

I'd love to know what other horses in the history of horse racing have won two grade one races by those margins. Maybe Man O War did it, but you have to go back to the turn of the century to find it.
I'm not sure Man o' War is a good comparison for Zenyatta. He didn't face much competition, and neither is Zenyatta. You can win by 100 lengths, but if it's against one horse, I'm not impressed.

RA is like Secretariat. A three year old stepping out of the well worn path. She's facing boys. She going against older competition. Sec raced against older horses and on multiple surfaces. All the while, her and Sec set amazing times and won by miles. If you aren't going to stretch the limits, then you're not an all time great.


... and no, she's not Secretariat.

[statik27]

This thread is a perfect example of why this argument is so frustrating for many of us.

All PA did was point out, rightly so, that RA is the likely HOTY and she is, there is no denying that. But people can't be satisfied with that, they have to start throwing around terms like "All Time Great" and names like Ruffian, Man O'War and Sec.

Every couple of years some hot shot horse comes along and their the next great one, but time starts to fade them and their a foot note in our collective racing imaginations. The only way to call any horse an all time great is to give it time, we won't know what Rachel means to racing for a couple of decades. So just give it a rest and enjoy watching her run.

[Imriledup]

This thread is a perfect example of why this argument is so frustrating for many of us.

All PA did was point out, rightly so, that RA is the likely HOTY and she is, there is no denying that. But people can't be satisfied with that, they have to start throwing around terms like "All Time Great" and names like Ruffian, Man O'War and Sec.

Every couple of years some hot shot horse comes along and their the next great one, but time starts to fade them and their a foot note in our collective racing imaginations. The only way to call any horse an all time great is to give it time, we won't know what Rachel means to racing for a couple of decades. So just give it a rest and enjoy watching her run.

To each his own. I'm calling Rachel an all time great TODAY. I don't have to see any more, i'm already putting her ahead of Ruffian and last i checked, Ruffian is an all time great. She's done more than Ruffian has done ALREADY.

Why should i wait 20 years before i calls em like i sees em?

[statik27]

Ruffian broke or equaled 8 time records from 6f to 12f and was undefeated until until her ill-fated match race.

Yeah I totally see the comparison.

[Imriledup]

Ruffian broke or equaled 8 time records from 6f to 12f and was undefeated until until her ill-fated match race.

Yeah I totally see the comparison.

I'm glad you see it my way! :ThmbUp:

[rjorio]

Rachel Alexandra is the most impressive horse to run on dirt since Ghostzapper and there is no way Zenyattas connections will run against her on conventional dirt.Mr Moss is a smart cookie and he will not ship his horse east to get beat.Rachel is horse of the year unless Quality Road captures the Travers and Breeders Cup Classic.

[statik27]

"Attention folks, not listed in todays program, the #3 Imriledup, will be running with blinkers on, I repeat, Imriledup has blinkers on."

[lamboguy]

Ruffian broke or equaled 8 time records from 6f to 12f and was undefeated until until her ill-fated match race.

Yeah I totally see the comparison.RUFFIAN no doubt was great, but she ran against nothing. the bigest concern to STEVE ASSMMUSSEN is the when RACHEL runs that there is no competition for her. he is trying to go further with her. its not his fault that the breeders cup is on synthetic surface, the guy that owns the horse hates the stuff after CURLIN ran bad on it. the owner don't want to get beat by the surface or take a chance on getting an injury. the synthetic is everything opposite of what it was supposed to be. the man wants to run his filly as a 4 yo, and he is not taking any unnessary chances to prove things to others.

[W2G]

As for HOY, Gio Ponti can certainly become a headache for Jackson. If he wins out and takes down some top Euros in the BC, he'll have a strong claim. He'll also have showcased his talent on racing's biggest stage while RA is on the sidelines. Could get interesting. I don't see how Zenyatta gets into the picture given the timidity of her connections.

[joanied]

Hey Pace...ya opened that ol' can of worms:D ...

There is no 'numbness' concerning Rachel for me...I'm fully aware of what she has accomplished so far, and I am in awe of her...

I am also a little tired of her being compared to Ruffian, as if Ruffian was the only great filly to ever run...we've had scores of incredible race mares/fillies...as far as I'm concerned...many I would call 'great'...
where Rachel ends up within the history of racing, we don't know...yet...I have no doubt she'll be ranked in the top 10 on every list they have...right now, she's #1...and rightfully so.

Horse of the Year...regardless of what any of the colts do from today to the BC, or if Zenyatta remains undefeated...Rachel gets Horse of the Year...

I expect her to continue winning and cannot wait until the Woodward...I don't even read the posts from the 'naysayers', doubters, and those which will never be happy with her race record...

I am simply grateful to be here while she's racing, I feel priveledged and awe struck watching her, she inspires me, she thrills me, she is emotion with a capitol 'E'...she IS Horse of the Year:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Java Gold@TFT]

Everyone has their own definition of greatness and all time greats.

Here are the ladies in the Racing HOF who have raced in the last 40 years here primarily on dirt (so I left out horses like Miesque).

Where would you put Rachel in this list today?
And where would you put her if she won the Woodward by 3 in a time of 1:48 and then retired due to some injury? (ala 3yo fillies Ruffian and GoFor Wand)

Bayakoa
Bold ‘N Determined
Chris Evert
Dance Smartly
Davona Dale
Genuine Risk
Go For Wand
Inside Information
Lady’s Secret
Mom’s Command
Paseana
Personal Ensign
Princess Rooney
Ruffian
Serena’s Song
Shuvee
Winning Colors


I apologize if I missed one or two on the list.

Personally I have her in the Top 3 no matter what she does for the rest of her racing career.

[joanied]

Everyone has their own definition of greatness and all time greats.

Here are the ladies in the Racing HOF who have raced in the last 40 years here primarily on dirt (so I left out horses like Miesque).

Where would you put Rachel in this list today?
And where would you put her if she won the Woodward by 3 in a time of 1:48 and then retired due to some injury? (ala 3yo fillies Ruffian and GoFor Wand)

Bayakoa
Bold ‘N Determined
Chris Evert
Dance Smartly
Davona Dale
Genuine Risk
Go For Wand
Inside Information
Lady’s Secret
Mom’s Command
Paseana
Personal Ensign
Princess Rooney
Ruffian
Serena’s Song
Shuvee
Winning Colors


I apologize if I missed one or two on the list.

Personally I have her in the Top 3 no matter what she does for the rest of her racing career.

JavaG...your list verifies what I said...we've had many, many 'great' fillies/mares...IMO, comparisons are nearly impossible as you have to consider too many variables...one reason, I guess, we all have different ideas of greatness (you were smart to do it in alphabetical order:D )...

I don't quite understand why you felt the need to ask where would we put RA if she won the Woodward by 3 in 1:48 and was "retired due to injury"...Imean...let's not even go there:faint:
anyway...I would also have to place RA in the top three...the thing is, most everyone here will have a different top three...but, for me, Rachel is in the top three of all the great fillies/mares :ThmbUp:
You left out TaWee:)

[GaryG]

And Affectionately, beat males and carried high weight (back when we had real handicaps). By Swaps out of Searching.....hate to admit that I saw them both run. :eek:

[joanied]

And Affectionately, beat males and carried high weight (back when we had real handicaps). By Swaps out of Searching.....hate to admit that I saw them both run. :eek:

OHMan...she was:jump: awesome...see...the list grows...still RA in the top 3:)

[Java Gold@TFT]

And Affectionately, beat males and carried high weight (back when we had real handicaps). By Swaps out of Searching.....hate to admit that I saw them both run. :eek:
I did qualify the list as the last 40 years so I cut off horses who raced before 1970, thus the Affectionately snub. If I went through all of them you could have everything from Busher to Twilight Tear, etc. Just tried to make a contemporary list to compare Rachel to in terms of her current greatness.

[joanied]

I did qualify the list as the last 40 years so I cut off horses who raced before 1970, thus the Affectionately snub. If I went through all of them you could have everything from Busher to Twilight Tear, etc. Just tried to make a contemporary list to compare Rachel to in terms of her current greatness.

That is the best way to do it, JavaG...like you said...if you include fillies/mares before 1970...the list would be so long it wouldn't fit on the page:D ;) ...you done good:ThmbUp:

[joanied]

http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2009/08/how-much-further-can-rachel-go.html

it fits in with this thread and I thought it very good.

[11cashcall]

Theres no doubt that Rachel is the leading contender for HOY at the moment, domilishing any 3 yo fillies and even beating the boys twice (and soon likely 3x). However I dont understand when the HOY conversation begins, only Zenyatta and RA are mentioned as contenders. Has everyone forgotten that Gio Ponti has one 4 G1s in a row? Not only that, at different distances ranging from 1 mile to 1 3/8. To go along with that versatility, he won a G3 on the synthetics in late December. Now, maybe this isn't up to Rachel's resume, but no doubt Gio Ponti should be in the HOY conversation long before Zenyatta. If Gio Ponti were to go on to the BCC and win, that would undoubtedly be my vote for HOY.


Excellent Post!

Running RA in the Alabama S. would have been the logical choice imo.The media helped stroke the flame that she already beat her divisional foes...really? I dont seem to recall her meeting up with Careless Jewel or
Milwaukee Appeal who have not only competed well this yr. but at the 1 1/4
dis. which the connections have yet to commit too dispite all the "sportsmanship" that can be underlined.Gio Ponti's win in the Arlington Mill.
over the Euros makes him even more appealing. Have to think the connections are sitting back smiling when you realize who the preasures on.