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View Full Version : The I.R.S. Window - Chapter 8


Steven Kolb
08-28-2009, 02:37 AM
The thread "signers" was good.

This link is a chapter about the IRS from my book.
It's about 7-8 pages. I think there will be something
for everyone - - even the "hardened" track veterans.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4780&stc=1

Is that last story about you, or someone you know?

GL
www.stevenkolb.com

rrpic6
08-28-2009, 05:40 AM
Nicely written excerpt Steven. A common scenario for myself and many others here. However, jdl is able to bypass all that paperwork crap.

RR

judd
08-28-2009, 05:45 AM
isnt it odd if you bet $200 to win on a horse that pays $50 and you get back $5,000 cash but no signer then bet a $1 tri box for $6.00 and hit for $1600
you have to sign !!! :bang:

andymays
08-28-2009, 05:46 AM
With any signer over 25k you should be able to go to some office and do it in private.

It's nobody's business and it can be dangerous on the way to the parking lot and home.

SoCalCircuit
08-28-2009, 10:29 AM
isnt it odd if you bet $200 to win on a horse that pays $50 and you get back $5,000 cash but no signer then bet a $1 tri box for $6.00 and hit for $1600
you have to sign !!! :bang:


Not really because youre essentially making 100 separate 2 dollar win bets, it just consolidates on the ticket to make everyones lives easier

rrbauer
08-28-2009, 10:30 AM
First, you do not have to keep losing tickets to document your losses. So long as you're consistent, a daily log showing bets/cashes will do just fine.
I speak from experience with multiple IRS audits over the years. Indeed, with most players making bets online, being able to recall detail from your online account and print/save it for your records is equally important.

Second, you must itemize your deductions in order to offset gambling winnings with losses. About 65% of US taxpayers do not itemize and I presume that a similar percentage exists in the horseplayer world. If you don't routinely itemize and you do keep records and you have some "signers", look at declaring ALL of your cashes as "winnings" and then using the "bet amounts" as losings and see if that will put you over the threshold as far as itemizing giving you a better bottom line than just taking the standard deductions. This will allow you to offset the signers with losses that you can't do using the standard deductions. One more reason to keep records of your betting.

DJofSD
08-28-2009, 12:35 PM
With any signer over 25k you should be able to go to some office and do it in private.

It's nobody's business and it can be dangerous on the way to the parking lot and home.
I would never cash a large ticket on the same day. Go home. Photo copy it. Put it in a safe or a safe place then go back on a different day. Running up to the window and celebrating is a recipe for trouble. And for heavens sake, don't do what the guy did at HOL years ago -- demand large amounts in cash then basically broadcast to the world you're heading to Vegas.

andymays
08-28-2009, 12:42 PM
I would never cash a large ticket on the same day. Go home. Photo copy it. Put it in a safe or a safe place then go back on a different day. Running up to the window and celebrating is a recipe for trouble. And for heavens sake, don't do what the guy did at HOL years ago -- demand large amounts in cash then basically broadcast to the world you're heading to Vegas.


Good Advice. I usually go back about an 90 minutes before post time to cash the larger tickets. Nobody is there yet. Carrying large amounts of cash is not only dangerous it's hard to put more than 20k on your person even if you have a jacket on. If you don't have a jacket you can put 5k in each sock, 10k in each front pocket and that's about it before it becomes a big problem. Also never ever go to a Gentlemans Club after a big score carrying lots of cash! That's a no brainer! :cool:

Steven Kolb
08-28-2009, 03:16 PM
Andy's idea of a private office is good - - - until a line starts forming at the "private" office.
DJ's photo copy & then return to cash out is a good idea - - I've done it.
_____
_____
Bauer - *** NTRA has a chart saying there are something like 70M racing fans in this country. Perhaps. If there are 10M "active" players - those making wagers at least occasionally - then think about this...
_____
Of the US online wagering sites (these handle full Pick 6's - sorry if I miss one or two) the following have unique monthly visitors...
TVG = 98K . Youbet = 45K . Twinspires = 37K . Xpressbet = 29K _ Total = 209,000
_____
Since many use multiple sites (I use two) - 200,000 online wagering players seems fair.
That leaves more than 9,800,000 racing fans who bet at tracks or OTB's. My writing is directed towards those fans - (I wish they'd all buy the book ;)
If they follow my advise and hit a $60,000 Pick 6, they should itemize and confidently have proof of their wagering activity; which won't be a report from TVG, Youbet, et al.
As you correctly state - - Keep good records!!!

Thanks!
sk
www.stevenkolb.com

*statistics from quantcast.com

JohnGalt1
08-28-2009, 08:16 PM
I always use SAMs.

So if I win a decent amount, I get vouchers.

And if I win much more than a decent amount, I get a check.

jamey1977
05-12-2010, 05:44 AM
What if someone steals your voucher or mugs you in the parking lot and takes your voucher along with your wallet? How do you get it back ?

menifee
05-12-2010, 11:22 AM
You miss an important point in the book. In some states, you are not allowed to deduct losses off your gambling winning for state income tax purposes (e.g., Massachusetts). However, you can deduct the amount of the winning ticket.

This is important. Most people who cash winning IRS tickets (or any tickets) at a track never get the winning ticket back and don't keep good records, so they are unable to do this. If you are a big player, it can add up to savings on your state tax bill if you keep those tickets. Thankfully, with ADW's, you can review every wager you made to determine this information.

Fingal
05-12-2010, 11:29 AM
I would never cash a large ticket on the same day. Go home. Photo copy it. Put it in a safe or a safe place then go back on a different day. Running up to the window and celebrating is a recipe for trouble. And for heavens sake, don't do what the guy did at HOL years ago -- demand large amounts in cash then basically broadcast to the world you're heading to Vegas.


Doesn't matter if it's a signer, or ticket that results in something that doesn't trigger the IRS window but is still substantial. Cash it next week- remember tickets have an expiration date, they don't become null & void in 24 hours. Maybe it's because I live fairly close to Santa Anita, but a large ticket from Hollywood gets cashed at SA simulcast. Go early- go to the window as soon as they open when the place is largely empty. Don't cash out several tickets at once that would result in a big payoff. Break it up- do one this day, maybe a couple more another time- A couple of years ago at SA there was one guy who saved up all his winners for the year & cashed them out at once to get a cheap thrill, of course he got relieved of it in the parking lot.

macdiarmida
05-12-2010, 05:42 PM
The bit about losing tickets just lying around needs a caveat. In California, all discards belong to the state of California; they get all unclaimed winning tickets. While some security guards don't care, there are some with a stick up their *** that zealously enforce. If your idea of a good time at the races is sitting in the security office for the rest of the day, go ahead and make it obvious you are picking up losing tickets. There are pro and amateur/pro stoopers around, and if you ask them, they've all spent time in "detention hall", many on multiple occasions. And yeah, some of the pro stoopers have bought immunity with donuts.

Originally posted by rrbauer
First, you do not have to keep losing tickets to document your losses.You do have to have some sort of records. There's the rub for most people. Better to accumulate losing tickets just in case; it's a lazy way, but it's an easy way also.

Spiderman
11-02-2010, 01:06 PM
The thread "signers" was good.

This link is a chapter about the IRS from my book.
It's about 7-8 pages. I think there will be something
for everyone - - even the "hardened" track veterans.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4780&stc=1

Is that last story about you, or someone you know?

GL
www.stevenkolb.com (http://www.stevenkolb.com)

Steven,

What you fail to mention is that the losses against winnings must be filed on Schedule A. 60-70% of tax payers use the standard deduction. Let's say, the winner/taxpayer is entitled to minimum standard deduction of $3,500, he loses that deduction by filing a Schedule A.

Furthermore, the amount of winnings is added to income and taxpayer will be limited in reeporting medical expenses and donations which are both based on a percentage of income - the higher the income, the less that can be reported.

Yes, it would be great to hit a massive score. Then, the aforementioned regulation to file losses v. winnings on Schedule A would be relatively less a burden. But, by winning a 'signer', a bettor/taxpayer loses.

Dick Schmidt
11-02-2010, 05:56 PM
What if someone steals your voucher or mugs you in the parking lot and takes your voucher along with your wallet? How do you get it back ?

Amazingly enough, it can be replaced. A friend of mine lost a $2000 voucher somewhere at Santa Anita sometime during the 8th race. Discovered it when he went to bet the 9th. He, and everyone with us, assumed he was screwed, but he and I went to the racing office anyway to see what could be done.

He still had a couple of losing tickets from the 4th race, and using those numbers, the racing office people were able to find his records and trace his betting throughout the day. "My, you had a good day" the lady said as she canceled the lost voucher and reissued a new one. Since the lost voucher was still laying on the ground somewhere, it was no problem getting a new one.

After that, I always had a losing ticket from the first race in my pocket. In fact, if you ask, most tellers will give you back your winning tickets. They have been canceled in the computer and you can't cash them again; some people like them as keepsakes of a big win.

Dick

Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there, 80 are nothing but targets, and 9 are the real fighters and we are blessed to have them, for they the battle make. Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior, and he will bring the others home." ~Heraclitus 500BC

thaskalos
11-02-2010, 08:36 PM
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there, 80 are nothing but targets, and 9 are the real fighters and we are blessed to have them, for they the battle make. Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior, and he will bring the others home." ~Heraclitus 500BCGreat quote!

Those ancient Greeks sure were ahead of their time...

macdiarmida
11-03-2010, 05:25 AM
I believe the rules have changed in the last year or so in California. If it's a lost voucher, it can be replaced by getting the parimutuel dept. to trace it and lock it. If it's a lost/stolen bet ticket, you are now SOL. You will find it is so stated in the racing program or from your now uncooperative parimutuel department.

thaskalos
11-03-2010, 11:35 AM
I believe the rules have changed in the last year or so in California. If it's a lost voucher, it can be replaced by getting the parimutuel dept. to trace it and lock it. If it's a lost/stolen bet ticket, you are now SOL. You will find it is so stated in the racing program or from your now uncooperative parimutuel department.The level of cooperation you get from the parimutuel department often depends on how they feel at the moment.

Not too long ago, I thought that I had lost a $600 voucher...so I quickly alerted the parimutuel department, giving them the necessary information to put a "stop" on it and issue me a new one.

When I got back to my seat, I found the misplaced voucher in a discarded stack of losing tickets on my table. Before I had a chance to inform the parimutuel guy that I had found my voucher...he came over to my desk and apologetically told me that my voucher had been cashed by another patron - who had since left the premises...and that there was nothing more they could do.

When I told him that he was lying, and that the voucher was on my desk all along...he shrugged his shoulders and walked away without saying a word.

takeout
11-03-2010, 12:05 PM
Before I had a chance to inform the parimutuel guy that I had found my voucher...he came over to my desk and apologetically told me that my voucher had been cashed by another patron - who had since left the premises...and that there was nothing more they could do.Sadly, I would guess that that’s what happens most of the time. I wish you had taken it up the chain a few levels although I suspect you would have had the same result. :bang:

takeout
11-03-2010, 01:12 PM
When I told him that he was lying, and that the voucher was on my desk all along...he shrugged his shoulders and walked away without saying a word.That particular situation might have been a neat time to try an experiment. I would be curious as to what the outcome would’ve been had you not told him that you found your voucher. Then, after he gave you that line of crap, just sit on the voucher for a while, maybe a week or two or even longer. Then take it to a live teller you trust and see if it would cash. I’m wondering if the guy that lied to you was just lazy or possibly in league with others and doing something worse. The situation certainly sounds as if it lends itself to a variation of the old uncashed ticket scam. I mean, you’ve already given them the info and told them that it was lost. Just something that crossed my mind.

PS: Makes me wonder where Chris Harn is these days. :D

cj's dad
11-03-2010, 01:21 PM
Topic 419 - Gambling Income and Losses
The following rules apply to casual gamblers. Gambling winnings are fully taxable and must be reported on your tax return. You must file Form 1040 (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf) (PDF) #1- and include all of your winnings. Gambling income includes, but is not limited to, #2-winnings from lotteries, raffles, horse races, and casinos. It includes cash winnings and also the fair market value of prizes such as cars and trips. For additional information, refer toPublication 525 (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p525/index.html), Taxable and Nontaxable Income.

A payer is required to issue you a Form W-2G (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2g.pdf) (PDF) if you receive certain gambling winnings or if you have any gambling winnings subject to Federal income tax withholding.#3- All gambling winnings must be reported, including winnings` that are not subject to withholding. In addition, you may be required to pay an estimated tax on your gambling winnings. For information on withholding on gambling winnings, refer to Publication 505 (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p505/index.html), Tax Withholding and Estimated Tax.

You may deduct gambling losses only if you itemize deductions. Claim your gambling losses as a miscellaneous deduction that is not subject to the 2% limit on Form 1040, Schedule A (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sa.pdf). However, the amount of losses you deduct may not be more than the amount of gambling income reported on your return. It is important to keep an accurate diary or similar record of your gambling winnings and losses. To deduct your losses, you must be able to provide receipts, tickets,#4 - statements or other records that show the amount of both your winnings and losses. Refer to Publication 529 (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p529/index.html), Miscellaneous Deductions, for more information.

Little known facts:

#1 - see #3

#2 - game show contestants are sometimes required to sell their cars, boats etc.. to pay the taxes on them; and to get some cash for the sale and then pay tax on that.

#3 - all winnings means all winnings; even a $2.10 show bet must be included.

#4 - If you bet through TVG or similar they provide a statement at the years end showing all of your winnings and losses; very helpful if you do most of your betting on line. That is your receipt and it is accepted by the IRS.

One final note, the IRS has the right to add a % to your tax liability if you claim your W2G forms as your only winnings. The % that is added is AT THEIR DISCRETION.

delayjf
11-04-2010, 10:06 PM
According to a post I read at Hollywood park. If you now will be asked for ID when you make any transaction over 10,000 - regardless of the odds.

macdiarmida
11-06-2010, 12:10 AM
Thaskalos wrote:
The level of cooperation you get from the parimutuel department often depends on how they feel at the moment. Could you tell where this sleazeb, uh diligent guardian of the public was working? Inquiring minds and all that.