Work or NO work.......

[Hanover1]

This thread needs its own place, and we need input. Can you "hide" a work, is it ethical and fair to the bettors? Why would you hide a work, and do you need to declare all works? What constitutes a work? What would stop me from just going to the track and not declaring my works??

[Imriledup]

if you worked a horse in your stable pad, the clockers would know it was your horse and then they would be able to figure out what horse it was. nothing would stop you the first time, but if the assn clockers complained to higher ups that you were working horses with no saddle pads, you would get punished. The clockers would call you and say "who did you work today at 8:30" and you would tell them or risk getting in trouble.

What trouble you would get into is something i don't know, maybe someone here would be able to clarify this.

I would say that hiding a work while doing it within the rules is fair and ethical. If you, as a bettor, want to see every work at a certain track, nothing is stopping you from going to the track at 4:30 with your binoculars, notepad and stopwatch and getting your own info. But, most people actually work for a living and dont have the time or knowledge to do this, so they have to rely on the DRF for their workout info.

As long as the trainer is working the horse during the hours when the track is offically open for training, he can and should do everything in his power (if he wants) to put that horse in a position to NOT be timed by clockers, private and otherwise. He has an obligation to his owner to make sure that not every set of eyes can properly evaluate the exact value of his horse, especially if he wants to put that horse in a claiming race someday.

He's just trying to protect his and his owners investment, nothing wrong with that as long as they're doing everything within the rules setforth.

[bisket]

i have absolutely no way of knowing, but assmussen does some funny business with his works. now rachels has been more realistic of what you would expect as far as times. i can't figure how his horses can work as slow as they do and stay in shape. if you payed attention to curlins workout times and pyros you'd think they were 20k claimers. i've always thought maybe he has his horses swim in the pool or something, but i still can't look at his workout times and figure what the heck he's doing with his horses.

[Mineshaft]

This thread needs its own place, and we need input. Can you "hide" a work, is it ethical and fair to the bettors? Why would you hide a work, and do you need to declare all works? What constitutes a work? What would stop me from just going to the track and not declaring my works??





We also need to find out if each track has its own set of rules regarding horses that work. Wether they need to be published or not. I will start.



Louisiana-You DO NOT have to have every work published.

Next.....................

[illinoisbred]

i have absolutely no way of knowing, but assmussen does some funny business with his works. now rachels has been more realistic of what you would expect as far as times. i can't figure how his horses can work as slow as they do and stay in shape. if you payed attention to curlins workout times and pyros you'd think they were 20k claimers. i've always thought maybe he has his horses swim in the pool or something, but i still can't look at his workout times and figure what the heck he's doing with his horses.
Yeah, consistently slow works.I understand he works many of his horses in pairs.

[Mineshaft]

Do you need to declare all works?



Answer-Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Unless there is a rule in place the answer is no. But according to someone on this board he thinks otherwise.

[Tom]

If you work off track, no, but once on track, I think you are obligated to report ALL works. You are not allowed to hide races, why hide works?
People are betting money on these races are deserve all available information.

When owners want to race against each other and leave the public out it, let them have it their way. But as long as they are taking purse money, it is NOT their game anymore.

[illinoisbred]

If you work off track, no, but once on track, I think you are obligated to report ALL works. You are not allowed to hide races, why hide works?
People are betting money on these races are deserve all available information.

When owners want to race against each other and leave the public out it, let them have it their way. But as long as they are taking purse money, it is NOT their game anymore.
That would sure seem the way the game should be played.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

If you work off track, no, but once on track, I think you are obligated to report ALL works. You are not allowed to hide races, why hide works?
People are betting money on these races are deserve all available information.

When owners want to race against each other and leave the public out it, let them have it their way. But as long as they are taking purse money, it is NOT their game anymore.
So if an owner was wealthy enough to have a good training track of their own, they could work their horse without anybody ever knowing how they are doing? No rules against that or anything?

[bobbyt62]

mineshaft, one of the evd-ded trainers (doris hebert ?? ) got into LARGE trouble a few years ago for untimed workouts on 2yo's. if it wasn't hebert, it might have been don cormier. anyway, remember that no matter what time you see listed,it's not teletimered, and it may be from a running start, and it may be under 175 pounds or 90, and so on. best way to hide a work (and you're helpless to know in most cases) is to report a 5f work---but really only "work" 3f or 4f.

[illinoisbred]

So if an owner was wealthy enough to have a good training track of their own, they could work their horse without anybody ever knowing how they are doing? No rules against that or anything?
Isn't this still done out in maryland?I remember seeing a documentary a few years ago about the Boniface operation.I believe he worked all the stables horses on the farm.

[Imriledup]

i have absolutely no way of knowing, but assmussen does some funny business with his works. now rachels has been more realistic of what you would expect as far as times. i can't figure how his horses can work as slow as they do and stay in shape. if you payed attention to curlins workout times and pyros you'd think they were 20k claimers. i've always thought maybe he has his horses swim in the pool or something, but i still can't look at his workout times and figure what the heck he's doing with his horses.

Slow and steady wins the race. Do not look at the times of the workouts to determine how fast or talented a racehorse is. Fast is bad, slow is good. If you see a slow work from a top horse, that is the trainer telling you "this horse is fit and ready and i'm just doing some maintenance to keep the horse on edge" Fast works, in general, tell you "this horse needs some fast works to get fit".

Fast works take a lot out of horses, many trainers work em slow and steady.

[Imriledup]

So if an owner was wealthy enough to have a good training track of their own, they could work their horse without anybody ever knowing how they are doing? No rules against that or anything?

Tracks require at least one published work, so that trainer and owner would have to work their horse at least once at an accredited track in order to pass the entry box.

[bobbyt62]

zenyatta, just saw your post. the bonifaces of maryland come to mind with respect to your question. they win with surprisingly few fts'ers, yet they have their own facility (as do others that i can't recall as readily now). when their horses run, "bon" works are usually listed--but it's likely what is reported by the bonifaces themselves. but i don't think they get away with much, with respect to horses worked into blazing good shape at a private facility then shipped someone to "put one over" . but this subject reminds me of an old racetrack aphorisn----"45 and 4 equals 49"....

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Tracks require at least one published work, so that trainer and owner would have to work their horse at least once at an accredited track in order to pass the entry box.
So just one workout is needed over the course of that same year...or ever? I could see owners/trainers getting that one workout of the way very early if they knew they'd be running at that track later in the year. Probably doesn't happen often but might happen more often at some of the smaller tracks. I guess I don't really know, just my assumption.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

zenyatta, just saw your post. the bonifaces of maryland come to mind with respect to your question. they win with surprisingly few fts'ers, yet they have their own facility (as do others that i can't recall as readily now). when their horses run, "bon" works are usually listed--but it's likely what is reported by the bonifaces themselves. but i don't think they get away with much, with respect to horses worked into blazing good shape at a private facility then shipped someone to "put one over" . but this subject reminds me of an old racetrack aphorisn----"45 and 4 equals 49"....
So you're saying I shouldn't necessarily trust ALL of the workout times posted in the form. I figured most of them would be pretty close, but maybe a few could be WAY off, huh?

[Imriledup]

So just one workout is needed over the course of that same year...or ever? I could see owners/trainers getting that one workout of the way very early if they knew they'd be running at that track later in the year. Probably doesn't happen often but might happen more often at some of the smaller tracks. I guess I don't really know, just my assumption.

They may have to have the work within 30 days of the race, i'm not sure, but i know they need at least 1 work on the racing form.

If they really wanted to be sneaky, they could just call up the clockers and say "i just worked so and so and i got 50 seconds for 4 furlongs" and they might just put that down without the horse ever having worked in front of anyone's eyes at the accredited facility.

[Imriledup]

So you're saying I shouldn't necessarily trust ALL of the workout times posted in the form. I figured most of them would be pretty close, but maybe a few could be WAY off, huh?

In California, the times in the form are pretty close to what is reality. The reason is that there are a few private clockers who sell info and have their own times as well. If the DRF has 102 but the horse worked in 58, that word is going to get around that the 102 is bogus.

ALso, a trainer could work a horse 4 furlongs in 47 and gallop out 5 furlongs in 1 minute and the clockers will ask the trainer "what do you want 47 for 4 or 100 for 5" and they let the trainer pick his own time.

[Mineshaft]

So if an owner was wealthy enough to have a good training track of their own, they could work their horse without anybody ever knowing how they are doing? No rules against that or anything?





You are correct to a certain degree.


1st time starters need 2 or 3 official works in the last 60 days and one of those works has to be from the gate.


A horse who is running does not need a work. If he hasnt raced in 60 days then he needs a work. This may vary from track to track. Some tracks require a work if the horse hasnt raced in 45 days it just depends on the track.


It has nothing to do with being wealthy. You can train at any training center and work your horse and not get it published. If its a 1st time starter then yes you need 2-3 works. If its a horse who is already running then you dont need a work unless its been 45-60 days since its last race.


So if im running my horse every 28 days then i dont need a work. I might work my horse but see no need to get an official time on the horse.

[Mineshaft]

mineshaft, one of the evd-ded trainers (doris hebert ?? ) got into LARGE trouble a few years ago for untimed workouts on 2yo's. if it wasn't hebert, it might have been don cormier. anyway, remember that no matter what time you see listed,it's not teletimered, and it may be from a running start, and it may be under 175 pounds or 90, and so on. best way to hide a work (and you're helpless to know in most cases) is to report a 5f work---but really only "work" 3f or 4f.





Dont remember the incident but i wouldnt put it pass Doris to do this. But everyone does this when they have a nice 2 yr old in the barn.

[Mineshaft]

They may have to have the work within 30 days of the race, i'm not sure, but i know they need at least 1 work on the racing form.

If they really wanted to be sneaky, they could just call up the clockers and say "i just worked so and so and i got 50 seconds for 4 furlongs" and they might just put that down without the horse ever having worked in front of anyone's eyes at the accredited facility.





But if your horse is running every 28 days or so then you dont need an official work. Ive seen plenty of horses without a published work on the form.

[bobbyt62]

some jurisdictions don't require a workout at the track if a workout occurred at at an official licensed training facility---fair hill, etc. as far as times, i wouldn't put much stock into any except so cal. what do you think a timer gets paid? even if he's completely scrupulous, how much ability is he likely to have for $40 or so a day?

[nijinski]

Works have been hidden or at least attempts to hide for a long time.
Remember the story regarding Seattle Slew somehow his early workout was under Seattle Sue lol. :)

I personally have cashed in on a few horses coming off their private farms,
several from Danaher before his retirement , when his homebreds ran at Oaklawn, I believe he galloped them up and downhill.
Often they were on the board and ran big without recent published works.
The others were from Bill Boniface's farm ,caught a few prices in Md tracks on them.

I have no problem with it because eventually people catch on.

[Hanover1]

So you're saying I shouldn't necessarily trust ALL of the workout times posted in the form. I figured most of them would be pretty close, but maybe a few could be WAY off, huh?
Its more of a matter of understanding the ability and proclivities of the trainer/horse involved. Some horses require slow works for a variety of reasons, and some DO require faster works for a variety of reasons as well. The final product is the racing lines of the horse. I usually look for various changes in the times and distances involved, as well as surfaces involved, to try and determine if a change of + or - can be anticipated, based on experience with my own charges. A horse is either cranking up, maintaining, or leveling off, and works are used to respond to latest performance. These things must be taken into consideration, rather than trying to determine if you are getting duped.

[Imriledup]

But if your horse is running every 28 days or so then you dont need an official work. Ive seen plenty of horses without a published work on the form.

Correct. I think if you are racing consistently, you dont need a work. I'm not sure the actual cutoff, but 28 days sounds about right.

[Hanover1]

Correct. I think if you are racing consistently, you dont need a work. I'm not sure the actual cutoff, but 28 days sounds about right.
This is true in some instances.........

[Java Gold@TFT]

Zenyatta, In regards to two of your questions.

First, here is a description of Mine That Bird's work this week. It is MTB so everything had to be upfront about it.

On Tuesday, with jockey Jamie Theriot up, Mine That Bird worked five furlongs in 1:01.83, breaking off at the half-mile pole and working a furlong past the wire. He continued to gallop out six furlongs in 1:14.95. He went his final three furlongs in 36.38 seconds, while being asked by Theriot to finish.

"He rebroke," Woolley said about Mine That Bird's reaction to Theriot's command. "We wanted to see how he responded past the wire, and that's what we were looking for. He bounced right into it. He dropped and gave another go. He looked pretty sharp."

There is nothing to stop any trainer from doing something similar. The clockers would catch a 4F work without having to know that they were going to ask the horse to re-break after the finish line. I learned a long time ago that certain trainers like to finish their works at poles other than the finish line. The great Allen Jerkens always sits on his stable pony at the gap in the backstretch. He wanted his own time so he would have his horses work to the 7/8ths pole where he could stop his watch at the right spot. Of course the track clockers know a lot of these things these days and adjust accordingly. It's just that not every horse finishes their works directly in front of the stands.

Second, as with other examples about private training centers. Darley owns their own farm on Nelson Ave in Saratoga right adjacent to the backstretch. McLaughlin and Albertranni use it to train Darley horses. They do get official clockings there when they ask for it. (It will show up as tlc in the works). Sometimes they will work the horse on the main track before a race but they don't have to. The thing is that the training track is Tapeta and most people who see tlc in the pp's either won't know where it is or won't know that it's synth. Dickinson developed Tapeta at his own training facility where he could get official clockings for works. FAI used to run on wood chips and horses train there year round. The times would look pathetically slow and a lot of people would dismiss them but handicappers who knew what the track was like would jump on a horse that worked 1:01 on the wood chips. Now I think they went to a synth but I can't remember which one.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that you have to learn to watch training patterns more than just relying on what is published in the DRF. It's not necesssarily that trainers are trying to do something evil (although some do), it's just that there are a helluva lot more variables to works than than just looking at a 47.4 work 6 days before a race.

[andymays]

This thread needs its own place, and we need input. Can you "hide" a work, is it ethical and fair to the bettors? Why would you hide a work, and do you need to declare all works? What constitutes a work? What would stop me from just going to the track and not declaring my works??


Sometimes it's a simple as identifying the wrong Horse for whatever reason. It could even be that a barn change throws the Clocker off.

This was from Bruno De Julio on Aug. 20 www.racingwithbruno.com

Meetyouatgrouion's 08/13 DMR/FT 5F 102.0h
Didn't recognize this horse for Walsh as it became evident when
entries came out this one was a recent private purchase. We like this
horse. He can definitely run. He had some gate issues in first two, but
looked good breezing here on the flat in hand. Beware!

I know I can find more examples of works that Bruno had that weren't in the official tab. It happens. Most of the time it is unintentional.

Many times when I handicap a race I start with workouts since raced to see if there are any breaks in training and note the gaps if any. A gap doesn't always mean something bad because sometimes they just miss the work.

[Tom]

So if an owner was wealthy enough to have a good training track of their own, they could work their horse without anybody ever knowing how they are doing? No rules against that or anything?

Unfortunately yes - it is that way now. What do we do, tell them they cannot train their horse on their own farm? How do we enforce that. I don't like it, but it is what it is. Once on the track, that would seem to be the first opportunity to regulate the information.

[nijinski]

zenyatta, just saw your post. the bonifaces of maryland come to mind with respect to your question. they win with surprisingly few fts'ers, yet they have their own facility (as do others that i can't recall as readily now). when their horses run, "bon" works are usually listed--but it's likely what is reported by the bonifaces themselves. but i don't think they get away with much, with respect to horses worked into blazing good shape at a private facility then shipped someone to "put one over" . but this subject reminds me of an old racetrack aphorisn----"45 and 4 equals 49"....

Hadn't seen your post before , actually there was a time when not all Bons works were listed.
Jim Danaher"s horses years ago I can't recall being listed works but I believe his farm
was near Oaklawn because thats where they seemed to do well.

[CTgeorge]

But if your horse is running every 28 days or so then you dont need an official work. Ive seen plenty of horses without a published work on the form.


In WV the rule is 60 days and you need a published workout.

This whole discussion led me to check the latest version of the WV Rules of Racing. Here is the section on workouts:

§178-1-65. Workout.
65.1. Every Racing Commission occupational permit holder exercising a horse shall, upon request of an official timer, correctly state the distance over which that horse is to be worked, and the point on the racing strip, where it is intending to start the workout. He or she must identify the horse when requested.
65.2. Anyone wishing to exercise a horse on the racing strip between races shall obtain permission from the stewards and track superintendent.
65.3. When a horse is being warmed up or exercised, a public announcement shall be made giving the name of the horse and explaining its presence on the racing strip.
65.4. Any horse, which has not raced for a period of sixty (60) days, shall have one (1) published workout, or a workout certified by the official clocker to be announced over the public address system prior to the horse starting.

[BillW]

In WV the rule is 60 days and you need a published workout.

or a workout certified by the official clocker to be announced over the public address system prior to the horse starting.

This should be noted. On-line players of WV races may not necessarily receive the benefit of the WV rules on publishing workouts.

[cj's dad]

Isn't this still done out in maryland?I remember seeing a documentary a few years ago about the Boniface operation.I believe he worked all the stables horses on the farm.

100% correct-

Bill Boniface - Oliver's Twist - 2nd in the Preakness - works private !

Jonathon Shepard & Michael Dickinson also.

[illinoisbred]

100% correct-

Bill Boniface - Oliver's Twist - 2nd in the Preakness - works private !

Jonathon Shepard & Michael Dickinson also.
Forgot about Dickinson.Didn't Charles Hadry train Deputed Testimony on the farm leading up to his Preakness win?

[CTgeorge]

This should be noted. On-line players of WV races may not necessarily receive the benefit of the WV rules on publishing workouts.

It doesn't happen that often at Charles Town, but it does happen. The track announcer usually mentions any unpublished workouts when reading off the night's scratches. Simulcast players, who may not have access to sound also don't get this information.

[bobbyt62]

deputed testimony was trained by now retired bill boniface. his son kevin trains now. kim is also a trainer.

[Show Me the Wire]

In WV the rule is 60 days and you need a published workout.

This whole discussion led me to check the latest version of the WV Rules of Racing. Here is the section on workouts:

§178-1-65. Workout.
65.1. Every Racing Commission occupational permit holder exercising a horse shall, upon request of an official timer, correctly state the distance over which that horse is to be worked, and the point on the racing strip, where it is intending to start the workout. He or she must identify the horse when requested....[/B]

(Bolding added for emphasis)

Doesn't the bolded language give anyone pause? The way the rule reads the trainer does not have an affirmative duty to tell the official timer of the trainer's intent to work. The information has to be disclosed only if an official timer requests it.

Lots of wiggle room in that rule, most likely leading to much misinformation about actual works.

Additionally, I know some jurisdictions have default imes for works. In these jurisdictions the horse may be given credit for a published work, it did not actually perform.

[bisket]

talking about training a horse on the farm. dickie small trained broad brush by running him up and down a hill on his farm before his prep for the derby. he didn't even need a track :cool:

[bisket]

hey does the bonifaces have a farm in kentucky now?

[bisket]

Slow and steady wins the race. Do not look at the times of the workouts to determine how fast or talented a racehorse is. Fast is bad, slow is good. If you see a slow work from a top horse, that is the trainer telling you "this horse is fit and ready and i'm just doing some maintenance to keep the horse on edge" Fast works, in general, tell you "this horse needs some fast works to get fit".

Fast works take a lot out of horses, many trainers work em slow and steady.
the times are never different for assmussen's works

[bisket]

best way to hide a work (and you're helpless to know in most cases) is to report a 5f work---but really only "work" 3f or 4f.
this is assmussen's motis operendi. a little birdy told me. this is strictly my opinion ;) he didn't get away with it last year in california leading up to the breeders cup

[takeout]

It doesn't happen that often at Charles Town, but it does happen.It used to happen a lot more than it does now. Used to bug me too. Nothing like watching a firster or a layoff horse win with no works. :rolleyes:

What happens when they come off of these training tracks, are they just forgetting to phone it in or what?

Here’s something a little weird that I’ve noticed on several occasions. I’ll have a required work in my pps but the track program won’t, so the announcer will announce it and it will be different than what I have. Usually only a fifth or two difference but what’s going on with that?

Fortunately the days usually match. ;)

[takeout]

Didn’t have to look too long. There are two in Friday that are going to have to have workouts announced. #3 in race 2 and #2 in race 8. Hopefully they will be.

The first one is trained by Jean Rofe. I’ve been noticing this with her horses for years now. She comes off of the Middleburg training track and very often will not have a required work in the pps. Over the years some have been announced at the track and some have slipped through the cracks. Anyone know why her required works don’t seem to make it into the pps? Other trainers that come from there seem to have them.

[KyNick]

Asmussen works in company and the riders are instructed to stay even. The better horse is hard held and usually wins work by less than a half length. The works are usually off slow and finish fast. Maybe a 102 work is 38 first three and 24 flat last 1/4 with a good gallop out after. Plus a very slow work after a race is the norm. Usually come back a week or 9 days later with a very easy half to just have legs stretched and so they can see how horse is moving.

[Hanover1]

Slow and steady wins the race. Do not look at the times of the workouts to determine how fast or talented a racehorse is. Fast is bad, slow is good. If you see a slow work from a top horse, that is the trainer telling you "this horse is fit and ready and i'm just doing some maintenance to keep the horse on edge" Fast works, in general, tell you "this horse needs some fast works to get fit".

Fast works take a lot out of horses, many trainers work em slow and steady.
My 2 cents is not even worth that here, however I feel obligated to respond. This post is close to the truth, however not exactly. Some horses NEED fast works, even when fit, to keep them mentaly sharp. Its not just about physical shape. Colts in particular have a habit of "hanging" in the stretch ala Street Sense, ect....typical studdy behavior that requires brisk works to inform the colt that this is business and not a social call. Not so much with fillies, as they tend to be precocious if they are talented, if not downright rank and nasty ala Rags to Riches. In that case its always better to keep them well within themselves to avoid injury. They know where the go button is.....so in a nutshell it brings us to the origin of the statement "We are going to let the horse tell us", because that is exactly what takes place, and training program derives from that. (as well as box selection....)

[JohnGalt1]

What drives me buggy is tracks like Mnr that show NO works for lay off horses.

I know they've been galloping and other exersizes and not just standing in the barn for two months, but how do I determine their condition?

[Mineshaft]

What drives me buggy is tracks like Mnr that show NO works for lay off horses.

I know they've been galloping and other exersizes and not just standing in the barn for two months, but how do I determine their condition?







But John all tracks make you work when you step on that track. You cant get a work unless its published.

[Mineshaft]

Fast forward to the drf today.


Eric Guillot worked his filly Mi Sueno 5 furlongs Saturday at Del Mar in 59.3 The workout DID NOT appear on the official worktab.


You see not every work is published. Props to me..

[46zilzal]

But John all tracks make you work when you step on that track. You cant get a work unless its published.
SURE you can: work very wide and about 2 seconds over minimum qualifying time i.e. 1:10 for 5f. You account for that 6 seconds by going over a much larger circumference and it is not recorded.

Also between the horse identifier at the gap and the clocker on the roof, many are lost or confused for one another as there is no consistent ID once the horse is out on the course.

[Mineshaft]

SURE you can: work very wide and about 2 seconds over minimum qualifying time i.e. 1:10 for 5f. You account for that 6 seconds by going over a much larger circumference and it is not recorded.

Also between the horse identifier at the gap and the clocker on the roof, many are lost or confused for one another as there is no consistent ID once the horse is out on the course.





I was being sarcastic..

[Brogan]

SURE you can: work very wide and about 2 seconds over minimum qualifying time i.e. 1:10 for 5f. You account for that 6 seconds by going over a much larger circumference and it is not recorded.
Try that at a major track and you'll be in deep shit with the outriders who are basically the track police at that hour. Horses that are bad actors and riders that are dangerous are banned from the track for their behavior. There are WAY too many horses on the track during training hours for breezers to be anywhere but on the rail. The usual protocol is joggers on the far outside, normally going in the "wrong" direction, gallopers toward the middle of the track and breezers on the inside.