Should PP's include vet scratches?

[kenwoodallpromos]

In light of the Tour of the Cat's story, and on principal for handicapping and/or horse welfare purposes, should vet scratches be listed in the Past Performances?

[kenwoodallpromos]

As of the time of this post, 100% say yes!!

[Tom]

I would suggest they be listed below, like works, with the option, in electronic versions, to be merged into the pp lines. And of course, all scratch reasons listed.

I have a report I run with this information, PP and scratches, but do not have the work outs info to mix in.

[Bochall]

Vet scratches appear in the front of each tracks' selection page in DRF. If you get online pp's then you must look for that (it's there in the DRF site). Look under scratches and it will tell you: Vet, Trainer, Stewards or off turf.....I usually pass on a horse that was a vet scratch since his last race.

[schweitz]

Bris Ultimate pp's have vet scratchs also.

[bigbrown]

Bris Ultimate pp's have vet scratchs also.

any free source for this info?

[Java Gold@TFT]

any free source for this info?
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/instant.cgi?type=inp

Last page lists recent scratches and why, mto's, off the turf, also eligibles, vet scratches. it's free.

[bigbrown]

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/instant.cgi?type=inp

Last page lists recent scratches and why, mto's, off the turf, also eligibles, vet scratches. it's free.

thanks!

[Tom]

Bris Ultimate pp's have vet scratchs also.

In the PP's?

[schweitz]

In the PP's?

If you print out the pp's its on the last page where they list the trainers, jockeys,and vet scratches for the card's races.

[Dick Powell]

Many harness racing programs have either scratched sick and vet scratch right in the past performance lines. Why not Thoroughbreds?

[takeout]

Good question.

I would like to see a reason on the “Previously trained by” stuff as well.

[banacek]

You know I agree that it should be in the PPs, but at the same point it is something I get with very little effort that is helpful and others don't bother. If you can get info (especially without much effort) that others don't, that can be an edge.

[DJofSD]

I voted yes. And, yes, the BRIS entries do list the scratches for horses "in today" which include vet scratches. In my spare time, I'm working on an application the will scrape the HTML page for the scratches and create an a file that will allow the BRIS custom PP generator to include the scratch information. It won't be totally automatic but it will be as close as you can get it to one-click and done. I would rant and rave about lack of modern IT when it comes to BRIS but I'll refrain.

[bisket]

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bobbyt62]

i'm with banacek to not list it in pp's. it's been available for at least 3 years that i can recall, and i've always just gone to the page and written in the vet scratches, with date and class. i think there's already too much info the pp's (there was another discussion about specific conditions that used to be left out of old form running lines). if you think knowing about vet scratches helps, why would you want it blasted into the pp's ? it's not hidden now, (many tracks that have web sites even post the entire vet list) just a bit of effort to see. the info either matters (in which case you want as few to know as possible) or it doesn't (leave it where it's at--it's still public). be careful about reading too much into them anyway---in reading some posts here and other places, rail trip was very close to being put on the vets list on more than one occasion this year, including before the gold cup. and since i do note them (vet scratches) , i can say that i have seen many horses at "b" and "c" tracks that were vet scratches previously not only win, but nearly always pay less than $6 when they win. $4 and $5 winners at sam houston that were vet scratches the last time they were entered. to quote peter griffin "yeaaaaahhh" !

[Tom]

I want to know ALL the scratches and reasons. I will printout the horses records from my chart db back to 2006 - see every race it ran and every race it scratched out of nad what class it was.

[bobbyt62]

tom . i always wanted to see them (vet scratches and lists) too....i used to go to the racing secretary's office in the 80's and 90's, find the vets list and write them down (tdn and wat). my point is that i can't imagine why you'd want them in the pp's. one of my strong beliefs about modern "form" handicapping is that the form is too good now. i collect old forms and let me tell that as late as the mid 70's, all midwest and western forms didn't even itemize allowance and stakes races, in terms of conditions and grades. using an extreme example of a well known horse , secretariat, as a 3yo prior to the derby , ran in a SpwS and 2 AlwS. that's what the midwest and western form showed on derby day. how about your tracks local "big race of the month" ? would you like all horses with class lines like that, so you could decipher where they were coming from and unlock some value by knowing something everybody else doesn't know? or do you like it spelled out for every tom, dick and harry? that's why i'd say leave the vet scratches where they are...

[CBedo]

I want to know ALL the scratches and reasons. I will printout the horses records from my chart db back to 2006 - see every race it ran and every race it scratched out of nad what class it was."Do you want to know all the scratches and reasons" is a different question from "do you want the scratches and reasons PUBLISHED in the pps."

[kenwoodallpromos]

If the horse has not raced since the vet scratch, can we assume the horse is in good physical shape (hence low odds?) at the same track? How about if it is shipped to a lesser track?

[CBedo]

If the horse has not raced since the vet scratch, can we assume the horse is in good physical shape (hence low odds?) at the same track? How about if it is shipped to a lesser track?I'm sure others have more knowledge on this than me, but my observational based answer is that it probably depends on the horse, the trainer, and especially the track. Over the last few months of watching more of the smaller tracks, I've seen some tracks where the vets must have a quota they need to make as it seems they scratch one at the gate once a race (I think it was Charlestown maybe where it was really bad for a while?). Also, at some smaller tracks, it seems that some trainers are sending out some pretty feeble animals that the vets (thank goodness) are scratching.

[Imriledup]

I think the name of the vet should also be in the program. If a horse gets a positive, the vet should be fined or suspended.

[bobbyt62]

i don't know how you can hold a vet responsible for a positive. in the "old days' of actual programs---a booklet of race and gorse numbers and no pp's in them, all racing officials were listed, including the state vet, and association vet, placing judges, etc. the things they call programs now are usually a collection of equibase pp's, which are not the "old program " i refer to.

[DJofSD]

If the horse has not raced since the vet scratch, can we assume the horse is in good physical shape (hence low odds?) at the same track? How about if it is shipped to a lesser track?
I thought the rule was a public workout under the supervision of the vet/stewards before it was allowed to run a race again. No?

[CBedo]

i don't know how you can hold a vet responsible for a positive. in the "old days' of actual programs---a booklet of race and gorse numbers and no pp's in them, all racing officials were listed, including the state vet, and association vet, placing judges, etc. the things they call programs now are usually a collection of equibase pp's, which are not the "old program " i refer to.I think he's referring to the horse's private physician, not the state/track vet. It would be great to have a horse's vet listed along with it's trainer, but it would be tough as some stables use multiple vets.

[BUD]

I go Hyper want for what I think we should know-

IE Like How is the starter-Who are the guys in the gate-We should know
Who is inside the gate-Maybe there would be a patern--I would bet in some cases there are-The Game revolves and lives off of us--So any and all info should be available-If its not included in the PP's BFD Include it somewhere where we all can find it-
At times I think I know more about certain horses then I know about my kids--

We Have the coolest hobby in town-Everyday when I get a fresh set of numbers PP's on these Horses--I wish I could find the right words---But yes the more info the better- Some use some of this--some use some of that--Thats why this game rocks.

[46zilzal]

Just like a trouble line in a PP, people read far too much into them. A horse can just BUMP themselves, break the skin and be scratched as a PRECAUTION just as easily as something more serious like an infection. The mere QUALITATIVE fact of a vet scratch tell you NOTHING about the QUANTITATIVE reason behind it.

[Tom]

Then let the bettor decide on how important it was. What happened after a vet scratch? A layoff, a drop in class, missing works.......how many times has the horse been a gate scratch?

[DJofSD]

Just like a trouble line in a PP, people read far too much into them. A horse can just BUMP themselves, break the skin and be scratched as a PRECAUTION just as easily as something more serious like an infection. The mere QUALITATIVE fact of a vet scratch tell you NOTHING about the QUANTITATIVE reason behind it.
Your response implies, no, vet scratches should not be included in the PPs.

If that's correct, is the only reason why because some people will not correctly use the information?

Any other reasons?

[LottaKash]

Many harness racing programs have either scratched sick and vet scratch right in the past performance lines. Why not Thoroughbreds?

Yes, and it is a good thing, too....It gives you a fairly good picture, as how a horse may be progessing, regressing, or staying the same, in his current "form-cycle"...

I love that feature...

best,

[so.cal.fan]

No, unless they only specify UNSOUND. Trainers will often have their horses scratched as SICK, because they want to get out of a race that's too tough, etc. OR.....the horse really is sick.
I think it would be confusing and often here in Calif. horses win after being on the VET LIST......which would just make handicappers suspicious of crookedness.
If a player really wants to see a VET LIST, they are often online or in the racing offices.
If you buy DRF pp's online, they have a scratch list, again, it just will say TRAINER or VET.....and doesn't specify the reason.

[dave the horseman]

Dont indicate the vet scratches, whats to be said for CT where you get scratched for nothing, "unsound" says the vet, and you can work off fast and win.