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depalma113
08-24-2009, 08:00 AM
She is now in open company. Let's see who has the nerve to send their horse up against this monster.

slew101
08-24-2009, 08:33 AM
Travers would have made better theater, but with Kensei in there, we all knew they wouldn't run. And with the state of the older horse division, the Woodward should be a perfect spot for her.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 08:57 AM
No surprise here. Her connections know they would be pushing the limit with 10 furlongs so they duck the Travers.

She would have won the Alabama but would not have looked as invincible against 3yo fillies as she has so they skipped that race as well even though the purse was higher than the woodward.

W2G
08-24-2009, 09:08 AM
Congrats NYRA. Some decent lead time to hype her Woodward too.

Now how does this thing end up on national TV?

Racing has a rock star in this filly and her performances deserve national coverage.

FenceBored
08-24-2009, 09:13 AM
Congrats NYRA. Some decent lead time to hype her Woodward too.

Now how does this thing end up on national TV?

Racing has a rock star in this filly and her performances deserve national coverage.

It didn't matter for the Mother Goose. NYRA had plenty of warning, did some promotion, made up those 'darling little bracelets' as a give-away, free admission for the ladies, all for a increased attendance of <5k and no major network coverage.

the little guy
08-24-2009, 09:13 AM
No surprise here. Her connections know they would be pushing the limit with 10 furlongs so they duck the Travers.

She would have won the Alabama but would not have looked as invincible against 3yo fillies as she has so they skipped that race as well even though the purse was higher than the woodward.


Let me get this straight, they are ducking the Travers to run in a race open to every horse on the planet.....while having a horse in their barn ( Kensai ) whose career ( as a racehorse and Stallion ) can be made with a Travers victory?

And, furthermore, they apparently also knew beforehand that a 5:2 shot was going to run an exceptional race ( one still not as good as Rachel's last four victories at least ), and thus also ducked the Alabama. So, according to you, they are not only chicken ( despite facing the boys in Grade 1 races in three of her four recent starts ) but are also seers?

FenceBored
08-24-2009, 09:15 AM
Let me get this straight, they are ducking the Travers to run in a race open to every horse on the planet.....while having a horse in their barn ( Kensai ) whose career ( as a racehorse and Stallion ) can be made with a Travers victory?

And, furthermore, they apparently also knew beforehand that a 5:2 shot was going to run an exceptional race ( one still not as good as Rachel's last four victories at least ), and thus also ducked the Alabama. So, according to you, they are not only chicken ( despite facing the boys in Grade 1 races in three of her four recent starts ) but are also seers?

Andy, is it official yet, or still just 'unconfirmed rumours?'

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 09:20 AM
Let me get this straight, they are ducking the Travers to run in a race open to every horse on the planet.....while having a horse in their barn ( Kensai ) whose career ( as a racehorse and Stallion ) can be made with a Travers victory?

And, furthermore, they apparently also knew beforehand that a 5:2 shot was going to run an exceptional race ( one still not as good as Rachel's last four victories at least ), and thus also ducked the Alabama. So, according to you, they are not only chicken ( despite facing the boys in Grade 1 races in three of her four recent starts ) but are also seers?

They are looking to avoid races beyond 9 furlongs, thats what I believe. Yes the woodward is open company but you and I both know what would have shown up there will pale in comparison talent wise, to what will be running in the Travers.

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 09:31 AM
Yes the woodward is open company but you and I both know what would have shown up there will pale in comparison talent wise, to what will be running in the Travers.When exactly did this crop of 3yos become so super-duper awesome in your mind?

castaway01
08-24-2009, 09:48 AM
They are looking to avoid races beyond 9 furlongs, thats what I believe. Yes the woodward is open company but you and I both know what would have shown up there will pale in comparison talent wise, to what will be running in the Travers.

I guess that's why we always see 3-year-old fillies beating older males---the competition is much easier there. Oh wait...

Robert Fischer
08-24-2009, 10:08 AM
jackson really likes kensei. I don't want to say more than Rachel, but a)kensei is more a home team horse they've developed as opposed to bought ready-made (although now that i say this, i don't have his history memorized so if I get a sarcastic reply on the net about how they just bought him last year i guess i deserve it), and b)part of the game these guys play is to develop stallions. - not just for the money/profit, but these owners take pride in developing there stallions as a game

sounds funny, but yea Jackson really likes Kensei, and as others have said there are plenty of logical reasons why it "makes sense"

certainly dissapointing, as the Travers is a historically fine race. We can only hope the Woodward draws some good horses now and make the best of it.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 10:12 AM
When exactly did this crop of 3yos become so super-duper awesome in your mind?

I don't know, when did the older horse division become "super-duper awesome" in yours?

FenceBored
08-24-2009, 10:24 AM
You young whippersnappers are getting silly. The whole darn horse world's gotten soft. In MY day horses used to run multiple heats at 2+ miles on the same day, AND THEY LIKED IT. All this sissified 1 1/8 dash every 3-5 weeks stuff has ruined the breed. What they need to do, if they don't want to go back to REAL racing, is find a 6 story parking garage, put a layer of dirt on the spiral ramp (none of that synthetic garbage), and race them up the ramp. That way they can race their sorry 1 1/8 mile ALL UP HILL. Then they can tell their grandfoals all about it in a decade or so, when the little guys are whining about some fool thing or another.

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 10:26 AM
I don't know, when did the older horse division become "super-duper awesome" in yours?I have no idea who's planning on showing up for the Woodward, but I do know that the list of previous winners looks a hell of a lot more impressive than Kensei vs. Summer Bird. I have no reason at the moment to expect this year's Woodward to be any different. One can only imagine what your reason is for taking a historic event such as a 3yo filly taking on older males in a GI, and somehow making it sound like a cowardly move.

Tampa Russ
08-24-2009, 10:26 AM
This is not a knock against Rachel or the connections, but I totally agree that 10 furlongs was a major minus when evaluating options. Why bother to run unless things are in your favor? There are plenty of options to choose from. Woodward makes perfect sense to me.

Robert Fischer
08-24-2009, 10:27 AM
They are looking to avoid races beyond 9 furlongs, thats what I believe. Yes the woodward is open company but you and I both know what would have shown up there will pale in comparison talent wise, to what will be running in the Travers.

It's time to re-evaluate. The Preakness is the key race to watch if you have questions about her distance limitations. The chart is helpful for that race too and should be available. Part of understanding that race is noting the position of the runners early and at the finish.

As noted, Jackson has Kensei pointed to the Travers, so the reasoning behind this move is extremely transparent.

She will be a bet-against eventually if you are patient and keep an accurate "book" on her! :ThmbUp:

Java Gold@TFT
08-24-2009, 10:33 AM
Here's a scenario: A lot of people in the Summer Bird thread think that Quality Road isn't ready go 10F off of his Amsterdam prep and should not try it before the JCGC. He should find a 9F race before extending himself. So, guess who else is on the nomination list for the Woodwaard? Quality Road. The Woodward sets up perectly - 9F, race against older, race aginst Rachel, two turn prep before the JCGC, what more could you ask for? He already has a G-I against 3yo's this year so he has nothing to prove. Mr. Evans doesn't need the difference in purse money. A win against older and Rachel in the Woodward would be just as valuable if not more valuable for his stud career than beating up on 3yo's that Rachel has already proven she can beat. Bring it on!

Of course it will never happen and I don't for a second believe that Quality Road won't romp at 10F just because his prep was at 6.5F. He's so much better than anything left in the race after Rachel is out. Jackson is doing the best thing for Kensei. Put that G-I placed black type on the pedigree page. Rachel doesn't need it. She's only going to be homebred to Curlin and her foals aren't going to any sales ring anytime soon.

Well, I can dream about it anyway.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 10:37 AM
I have no idea who's planning on showing up for the Woodward, but I do know that the list of previous winners looks a hell of a lot more impressive than Kensei vs. Summer Bird. I have no reason at the moment to expect this year's Woodward to be any different. One can only imagine what your reason is for taking a historic event such as a 3yo filly taking on older males in a GI, and somehow making it sound like a cowardly move.

So thats how you judge the woodward to be stronger, based on past winners? Macho again and bullsbay look like the top horses pointing towards that race. Yea they are light years ahead of the likes of quality road, kensai, the birds, warriors reward.

FenceBored
08-24-2009, 10:40 AM
Here are all your nominees for the Woodward. Please hold all crys of "Who the hell is that?" until we're finished.


Alaazo
Alcomo (BRZ)
Asiatic Boy (ARG)
Bribon (FR)
Bullsbay
Coal Play
Colonel John
Cool Coal Man
Cowboy Cal
Da' Tara
Dr. D.F.C.
Formidable
Hold Me Back
It's a Bird
Jonesboro
Kensei
Le Grand Cru
Lowther Street
Macho Again
Munnings
Nite Light
Past the Point
Quality Road
Rachel Alexandra
Ready's Echo
Researcher
Smooth Air
Take the Points
Timber Reserve
Tizway
Let me just say that I don't think they should allow "Past the Point" and "Take the Points" into the same field. I'd just get too confused. :D

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 10:59 AM
So thats how you judge the woodward to be stronger, based on past winners? Yea they are light years ahead of the likes of quality road, kensai, the birds, warriors reward.I'm not "judging" anything yet... I'm saying that until I see the entries, I have no reason yet to expect this year's race to be any different.

You are the one passing judgement on it, assuming that a race with this history and tradition is going to be filled with bums this year. And if part of your argument is hyping a horse like Warrior's Reward that's never even won a graded stake, and has never beaten winners past 7f, you've clearly given up any claim at objectivity.

W2G
08-24-2009, 11:10 AM
NYRA bumped the Woodward purse to $750k -- that may boost the quality of the field.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm not "judging" anything yet... I'm saying that until I see the entries, I have no reason yet to expect this year's race to be any different.

You are the one passing judgement on it, assuming that a race with this history and tradition is going to be filled with bums this year. And if part of your argument is hyping a horse like Warrior's Reward that's never even won a graded stake, and has never beaten winners past 7f, you've clearly given up any claim at objectivity.

I'm hyping warriors reward? I know he pales in comparison to the likes of d'tara and ready's echo (possible woodward runners). Have you followed the handicap division at all this year? Giving a race the benefit of the doubt based on history, while ignoring the current state of the handicap division is gullible if you ask me.

Let me just point out that I have no problem with her connections choosing the woodward. They know her distance limitations and are planning her schedule accordingly. Unfortunately many on this board seem to believe she can run all day. Her connections obviously know otherwise.

CincyHorseplayer
08-24-2009, 11:15 AM
Quality Road hasn't won a grade 1 route since March,so while he is a good horse,he is not the measuring stick for greatness after a 6.5 furlong race.

Robert Fischer
08-24-2009, 11:18 AM
They know her distance limitations and are planning her schedule accordingly. Unfortunately many on this board seem to believe she can run all day. Her connections obviously know otherwise.


:bang: watch the preakness on youtube and look at the chart

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 11:26 AM
I'm hyping warriors reward?You mentioned him as an argument that the Travers will have a stronger field than the Woodward. If you don't like that verb, insert a different one, but it still doesn't change the point.

And comparing the worst of the Woodward nominees to the best of the Travers nominees is further illumination upon your interesting perspective on these races.

RXB
08-24-2009, 11:33 AM
NYRA bumped the Woodward purse to $750k -- that may boost the quality of the field.

The only real boost in quality that the Woodward is going to get is the appearance of the filly. There's nothing to beat out of the bushes re: older horses, and nobody from California is going to walk away from a bigger purse at Dmr to come to NY and take on a better horse.

kenwoodallpromos
08-24-2009, 11:33 AM
RA will be lucky to get a minor award if Da'Tara and Tizway both run! What is the last time RA ran as short as 9f? Don't cheap claimers run 9f? LOL! Seriously, what will the carry weight factor be?

FenceBored
08-24-2009, 11:52 AM
RA will be lucky to get a minor award if Da'Tara and Tizway both run! What is the last time RA ran as short as 9f? Don't cheap claimers run 9f? LOL! Seriously, what will the carry weight factor be?

The NY Post article says she'll be carrying 118 compared to 121 for 3yo males and 126 for the older males. So Da'Tara will be giving Rachel 8 pounds.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 12:01 PM
You mentioned him as an argument that the Travers will have a stronger field than the Woodward. If you don't like that verb, insert a different one, but it still doesn't change the point.

And comparing the worst of the Woodward nominees to the best of the Travers nominees is further illumination upon your interesting perspective on these races.

You believe warriors reward is the best travers nominee? I'd rank 5 or 6 runners more likely

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 12:09 PM
You believe warriors reward is the best travers nominee? YOU mentioined him first, not me... if you agree that he sucks, then go back and argue with yourself.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 12:13 PM
Yup I mentioned warriors reward first :bang: :bang:

Yea they are light years ahead of the likes of quality road, kensai, the birds, warriors reward.

kenwoodallpromos
08-24-2009, 12:18 PM
The NY Post article says she'll be carrying 118 compared to 121 for 3yo males and 126 for the older males. So Da'Tara will be giving Rachel 8 pounds.
Travers conditions says everyone gets 126- and a nominee is Charitable Man.
Not many top horses in the Woodward are 3 and get lighter weight. A factor in the decision? Would you rather run a 3 year old filly at 118-121, or 126 lb?

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Yup I mentioned warriors reward first :bang: :bang:Two helpful links for you:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=740088&postcount=18

http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Naturals-Maximum-Supplement-60-Count/dp/B001G7QH94/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1251131429&sr=8-2

Stevie Belmont
08-24-2009, 12:33 PM
No big shocker here...

depalma113
08-24-2009, 12:36 PM
Travers conditions says everyone gets 126- and a nominee is Charitable Man.
Not many top horses in the Woodward are 3 and get lighter weight. A factor in the decision? Would you rather run a 3 year old filly at 118-121, or 126 lb?

She would have got a weight break in the Travers.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 12:59 PM
Two helpful links for you:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=740088&postcount=18

http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Naturals-Maximum-Supplement-60-Count/dp/B001G7QH94/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1251131429&sr=8-2

First I must give you credit for the 2nd link, very amusing.

Unfortunately we must return the discussion back to horses and your attempt to argue in circles. You accused me of comparing the best of the travers nominees to the worst of the woodward nominees. I replied that I did not consider warriors reward the best of the travers nominees, your response was "Hey you mentioned him first not me"

If you and everyone else cannot how pointless your argument was then its time for you to head back to amazon and find a mental detox supplement.

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 01:15 PM
I replied that I did not consider warriors reward the best of the travers nomineesThen you shouldn't have mentioned him in a list of horses you implied were better than anything that will show up in the Woodward. No matter how much tap dancing you try to do now, THAT was your original premise, and given this horse's credentials, it's impossible to take any of this seriously.

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 01:59 PM
Then you shouldn't have mentioned him in a list of horses you implied were better than anything that will show up in the Woodward. No matter how much tap dancing you try to do now, THAT was your original premise, and given this horse's credentials, it's impossible to take any of this seriously.

No matter how many times I reread the discussion and try to see your point of view, I still cannot see or make sense of it. I guess that's a good thing for me. ;)

All you have contributed is that we should wait till the entries for the woodward come out, when most who have followed the handicap division all year don't have to. But I guess the list of past woodward winners is more relevent than the current talent level of the horses who might run in it. :lol:

jonnielu
08-24-2009, 02:10 PM
Let me get this straight, they are ducking the Travers to run in a race open to every horse on the planet.....while having a horse in their barn ( Kensai ) whose career ( as a racehorse and Stallion ) can be made with a Travers victory?

And, furthermore, they apparently also knew beforehand that a 5:2 shot was going to run an exceptional race ( one still not as good as Rachel's last four victories at least ), and thus also ducked the Alabama. So, according to you, they are not only chicken ( despite facing the boys in Grade 1 races in three of her four recent starts ) but are also seers?

I'd say events of the past few weeks would qualify Steve Asmussen as a genuine seer. Apparently, his crystal ball is working better then most. Although Kensei can add a lot of value by winning the Travers, he won't lose any by losing. Rachel would, if she wins the Woodward, she will never go 10f.

jdl

jonnielu
08-24-2009, 02:14 PM
No matter how many times I reread the discussion and try to see your point of view, I still cannot see or make sense of it. I guess that's a good thing for me. ;)

All you have contributed is that we should wait till the entries for the woodward come out, when most who have followed the handicap division all year don't have to. But I guess the list of past woodward winners is more relevent than the current talent level of the horses who might run in it. :lol:

With limited knowledge of how things are, Steve prefers to talk about the way things are supposed to be.

jdl

ryesteve
08-24-2009, 02:29 PM
With limited knowledge of how things are, Steve prefers to talk about the way things are supposed to beNot the least bit relevant to anything being discussed here, which is generally your M.O.

So instead of tossing out random comments about me, why don't you weigh in the topic? Which is the tougher spot, the Travers or the Woodward?

sandpit
08-24-2009, 03:31 PM
RA will be lucky to get a minor award if Da'Tara and Tizway both run! What is the last time RA ran as short as 9f? Don't cheap claimers run 9f? LOL! Seriously, what will the carry weight factor be?

Good one...Da' Tara can't even win an allowance race; how is he supposed to beat stakes winners...might be the worst Belmont winner since, oh, I don't know, Jazil, Sarava, Commendable...

boogazie
08-24-2009, 03:42 PM
I have to agree that the Travers will be the much harder race. This year, the 4 year olds just aren't really that good.

In the Travers, you have the Birds and Quality Road which have a legitimate chance.

In 10 years times, no one is going to remember that the field for the Woodward was particularly weak. But people will remember that Rachel won a race against older males. That's the reason why they are running in the race.

Personally, I want to see Quality Road match up with Rachel but that's not likely to happen now

jonnielu
08-24-2009, 03:48 PM
Not the least bit relevant to anything being discussed here, which is generally your M.O.

So instead of tossing out random comments about me, why don't you weigh in the topic? Which is the tougher spot, the Travers or the Woodward?

The longer distance is always the bigger challenge, I would say that in 10f or longer the sexes even up with no advantage to either. At 9f, the natural style of the female can be an advantage over males.

The Travers would offer far too many possible complications to the Jackson maximum breeding value plan for Rachel. Summer Bird has already gone with her early expecting some help from Munnings. SB could try it again thinking that QR could go with her early, but it is unknown what to expect from QR's camp until the gate opens.

The only thing that we can figure as highly likely will be that MTB will go for a well timed late run. If Rachel were in the race, at least one or two would push her early, and one or two will look to pick up the pieces. Too many ways to lose.

In the Woodward, she has the speed to burn out an early challenger or two, and with the even run of the female can make the wire before getting caught.

jdl

depalma113
08-24-2009, 04:45 PM
The longer distance is always the bigger challenge, I would say that in 10f or longer the sexes even up with no advantage to either. At 9f, the natural style of the female can be an advantage over males.

The Travers would offer far too many possible complications to the Jackson maximum breeding value plan for Rachel. Summer Bird has already gone with her early expecting some help from Munnings. SB could try it again thinking that QR could go with her early, but it is unknown what to expect from QR's camp until the gate opens.

The only thing that we can figure as highly likely will be that MTB will go for a well timed late run. If Rachel were in the race, at least one or two would push her early, and one or two will look to pick up the pieces. Too many ways to lose.

In the Woodward, she has the speed to burn out an early challenger or two, and with the even run of the female can make the wire before getting caught.

jdl

Rachel Alexander is not a horse that needs the lead, so how can anything that is pointing to the Travers actually push her?

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Rachel Alexander is not a horse that needs the lead, so how can anything that is pointing to the Travers actually push her?

In her 2 lone starts against males, both times she was right up on a quick pace. Maybe she's comfortable enough to sit a couple lengths off fillies she's 20 lengths better than but she hasn't proven this against males yet.

tzipi
08-24-2009, 04:52 PM
Whether they picked Travers or Woodward does'nt matter. I think she would beat both fields pretty good. I think they just want to show her against older horses because she's already beaten most of the Travers runners. But anyway,Go Rachel!

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 04:58 PM
Whether they picked Travers or Woodward does'nt matter. I think she would beat both fields pretty good. I think they just want to show her against older horses because she's already beaten most of the Travers runners. But anyway,Go Rachel!

It's amazing how many times people can repeat the same incorrect statement on this board

Horse Pointing towards the travers

Quality Road
Kensei
Warrior's Reward
Summer Bird
Mine that Bird
Charitable Man

Rachel has only beaten 2 of these horses which does not qualify as "most"

depalma113
08-24-2009, 05:01 PM
In her 2 lone starts against males, both times she was right up on a quick pace. Maybe she's comfortable enough to sit a couple lengths off fillies she's 20 lengths better than but she hasn't proven this against males yet.

Yeah sitting a length off of Munnings was right up on the pace.

MickJ26
08-24-2009, 05:32 PM
Maybe the bump up in purse will convince Eoin Harty to bring Colonel John in from California. Colonel John can definitely give Rachel a run. Too bad Commentator is retired.

bisket
08-24-2009, 05:33 PM
i'll stand by what i posted last night. if jackson wants to win the travers he'll race rachel. kensei is pretty slick way of avoiding going against quality road without it apearing as if they are avoiding the race. i think it would be hilarious if quality showed up at the woodward also.

cj
08-24-2009, 05:53 PM
i'll stand by what i posted last night. if jackson wants to win the travers he'll race rachel. kensei is pretty slick way of avoiding going against quality road without it apearing as if they are avoiding the race. i think it would be hilarious if quality showed up at the woodward also.

I really don't think he is avoiding anyone. If the connections of Quality Road want Rachel, they know where to come and get her. What they are doing makes perfect sense for the Jackson stable.

Quality Road to the Travers off one 6.5f prep? No thanks, he wouldn't scare me.

bisket
08-24-2009, 06:00 PM
jackson should be selling refridgerators to the eskimo's.

WinterTriangle
08-24-2009, 06:21 PM
i'llif jackson wants to win the travers he'll race rachel.

I guess I don't subscribe to the "it's a BIG STAKES RACE! Therefore, Rachel should run!" LOL


You think they should just enter Rachel in any big stakes race regardless of the distance?

Awesome Again had 56 wins at 8F, only 1 win over 9F. Tiznow had 70 wins at 8.2-8F, only 3 wins at over 9F. Pleasant Tap, 13 wins at 9F, 1 win at over 9F.

does that have any meaning in your handicapping?

Do you have any thoughts about what Rachel's *distance specialty* is, or do you just think she should run in races because they are "big"?

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 06:30 PM
Yeah sitting a length off of Munnings was right up on the pace.

Yes sitting less than a length off a sprinter in a route race through fast fractions is really laying off the pace :D

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 06:34 PM
I really don't think he is avoiding anyone. If the connections of Quality Road want Rachel, they know where to come and get her. What they are doing makes perfect sense for the Jackson stable.

Quality Road to the Travers off one 6.5f prep? No thanks, he wouldn't scare me.

Why should he skip the race he's been pointing to for a less prestigious race with a smaller purse?

That would be like asking curlin last year to go run against big brown in the stakes race at monmouth in september

FenceBored
08-24-2009, 06:50 PM
Why should he skip the race he's been pointing to for a less prestigious race with a smaller purse?

That would be like asking curlin last year to go run against big brown in the stakes race at monmouth in september

Less prestigious? The Travers is for little babies who aren't ready to come out and play with the big boys yet.

bisket
08-24-2009, 06:50 PM
i think it would further her resume to win at the classic distance in a classic race. a win in the woodward would prove nothing. going into the derby the two best 3 year olds were quality road and iwr. one is racing again. the "sporting" thing to do is if you think your horse is the best then meet the challenge. quality is probably an easier mark now than he will be in his next race. it even makes more sense to race against him now. i have been going back and forth as too whether rachel could beat the colts at 1 1/4 mile. i think this settles it. i guess her best distance is 1 1/8 miles. kensei winning the travers is a joke

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 06:55 PM
Less prestigious? The Travers is for little babies who aren't ready to come out and play with the big boys yet.

or it's for 3yo who can't get the distance so they choose to run for LESS money in a shorter race. ;)

Cat Thief
08-24-2009, 07:05 PM
Don't know if she would have won the Alabama .... Looks like Careless Jewel and also the Milwaukee horse would have given her a run for the money.

tucker6
08-24-2009, 08:31 PM
No surprise here. Her connections know they would be pushing the limit with 10 furlongs so they duck the Travers.

She would have won the Alabama but would not have looked as invincible against 3yo fillies as she has so they skipped that race as well even though the purse was higher than the woodward.
you tire me sometimes.

Hanover1
08-24-2009, 08:45 PM
Rachel Alexander is not a horse that needs the lead, so how can anything that is pointing to the Travers actually push her?
Woodward figures to provide less pressure from the gate, along with weight advantage, as I said in the MTB thread I started, its the right call for her......

tzipi
08-24-2009, 09:46 PM
Rachel beats either field LOL ;) Remember everyone wanted her to go against Summer Bird bad after the Belmont and we know how that turned out.

They should take the Breeders Cup off the plastic and have all them(Rachel,Quality,Kensai,Summer Bird,Mine,Zenyatta,Bullsbay,etc) run on the dirt in the Classic.

classhandicapper
08-24-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't think any one factor was the reason for this decision.

They obviously want to get a Grade 1 win for their other horse.

IMO the Travers is likely to be a stronger race than the Woodward because the older horse division is weak this year and any of those 3YOs could explode forward at any time.

IMHO she is more vulnerable at 10F for the obvious reason that she hasn't run that far yet.

So when you add it all together, this move makes a lot of sense.

I think saying she is ducking anyone is false, but I feel confident those other risk factors were considered.

cj
08-24-2009, 09:56 PM
Why should he skip the race he's been pointing to for a less prestigious race with a smaller purse?

That would be like asking curlin last year to go run against big brown in the stakes race at monmouth in september

I didn't say he SHOULD skip anything, I just said the option was there.

The option of the Woodward is the best for the Jackson stable, period. I can't believe people are knocking a guy for running a 3yo filly against G1 older males! Are you guys serious?

cj
08-24-2009, 09:57 PM
Don't know if she would have won the Alabama .... Looks like Careless Jewel and also the Milwaukee horse would have given her a run for the money.

The winner, sure, there is a small chance she could beat RA. But the runner up? Come on, get real.

tzipi
08-24-2009, 10:02 PM
Careless Whisper did look GREAT that day! Another continuing star on the rise I hope.

bisket
08-24-2009, 10:05 PM
like i said earlier. jackson could sell fridgerators in alaska ;)

ghostyapper
08-24-2009, 10:09 PM
I didn't say he SHOULD skip anything, I just said the option was there.

The option of the Woodward is the best for the Jackson stable, period. I can't believe people are knocking a guy for running a 3yo filly against G1 older males! Are you guys serious?

Like I said I am not knocking jackson for this decision because it is what's best for his stable. But I don't want to hear that there's no doubt she can beat 3yo males at 10 furlongs or that she has nothing left to prove against any 3yo.

We had to deal with her fan club after the belmont saying she would have been a no doubt about it winner when her connections didn't even enter her. I have no doubt they will do the same after the Travers is run.

tag
08-24-2009, 10:22 PM
For all those saying Jess Jackson is ducking anything, have you not been following this guys sporting gestures with Curlin? He got one of the greatest dirt horses beat in a grass race with his little Arc De Triomphe experiment. He is one of those guys who for ego or for true sportsmanship, wants to do things to raise awareness and excitement for the game. Hell, he bought RA because the other connections stated they were going to avoid the colt classics. He knew fans wanted to see her go in the Preakness.

Having conquered 3 year colts already, he's simply trying to do (again) what hasnt been done before.

depalma113
08-25-2009, 05:56 AM
Like I said I am not knocking jackson for this decision because it is what's best for his stable. But I don't want to hear that there's no doubt she can beat 3yo males at 10 furlongs or that she has nothing left to prove against any 3yo.

We had to deal with her fan club after the belmont saying she would have been a no doubt about it winner when her connections didn't even enter her. I have no doubt they will do the same after the Travers is run.

She would have. Just like she would have won the Travers if she entered. Your simpleton belief that she would have lost the Preakness is what is fogging your brain. You'll get your chance to watch her win at a mile and a quarter in teh JCGC and all of those 3 year-olds can run in the race too.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 09:06 AM
Hell, he bought RA because the other connections stated they were going to avoid the colt classics. He knew fans wanted to see her go in the Preakness

Yes that's the reason he bought her for 10 mill, so the fans could see her in the classics, of which he has only run in 1 of 3 since the purchase.

Java Gold@TFT
08-25-2009, 10:36 AM
Yes that's the reason he bought her for 10 mill, so the fans could see her in the classics, of which he has only run in 1 of 3 since the purchase.
Well since he purchased her AFTER the Kentucky Derby was run it was kind of hard to run her in that race. You also don't seem to remember the other part of his sporting gesture in the Preakness. She was not nominated to the Triple Crown so he had to supplement her to get in the race. Others threatened to block her from running because if 14 or more were enterred then she would have been left out because she was a supplemental. Zayat finally backed down. She still beat the first 4 finishers in the Derby that day regardless if she didn't do it big enough for your satisfaction.

FenceBored
08-25-2009, 10:39 AM
Yes that's the reason he bought her for 10 mill, so the fans could see her in the classics, of which he has only run in 1 of 3 since the purchase.

1 of 2 since the purchase. The Classics are the Triple Crown races. The filly Classics are another thing. The Travers ain't a Classic. And I'd say the same thing if she was running in it.

11cashcall
08-25-2009, 11:21 AM
Don't know if she would have won the Alabama .... Looks like Careless Jewel and also the Milwaukee horse would have given her a run for the money.

Oh pleaze! The Woodward is much tougher! ;)

Grits
08-25-2009, 11:35 AM
1 of 2 since the purchase. The Classics are the Triple Crown races. The filly Classics are another thing. The Travers ain't a Classic. And I'd say the same thing if she was running in it.

FB, if you spoke with the folks who make their living each day training horses, spoke with owners or racing fans, I think you'd find those who might agree with you that the Travers ain't a classic race--slim to none.

A 1 1/4 mile, and a million in purse, not one of the classics?

Coulda fooled me. NYRA too, given the crowd on hand each year.

FenceBored
08-25-2009, 11:46 AM
FB, if you spoke with the folks who make their living each day training horses, spoke with owners or racing fans, I think you'd find those who might agree with you that the Travers ain't a classic race--slim to none.

A 1 1/4 mile, and a million in purse, not one of the classics?

Coulda fooled me. NYRA too, given the crowd on hand each year.

Seems like it's pretty easy to fool you.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 11:51 AM
Well since he purchased her AFTER the Kentucky Derby was run it was kind of hard to run her in that race.

Classics since the purchase
Preakness
Belmont
Travers

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 11:53 AM
1 of 2 since the purchase. The Classics are the Triple Crown races. The filly Classics are another thing. The Travers ain't a Classic. And I'd say the same thing if she was running in it.

The classics are races run at the classic american distance (10 furlongs and up). Last I checked the travers is 10 furlongs.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 11:57 AM
You'll get your chance to watch her win at a mile and a quarter in teh JCGC and all of those 3 year-olds can run in the race too.

I have little doubt that there will be another excuse for why rachel should not run in the jcgc that her fans will latch onto. Of course after the race is run they will claim that she would have won without actually winning.

Grits
08-25-2009, 11:58 AM
Seems like it's pretty easy to fool you.

Why don't you give up the smart remarks . . . . they serve no purpose whatsoever.

Maybe stop getting in a snit every time someone doesn't agree with you . . . . in regard to things such as this and journalists writing skills. Its getting ridiculous, someone suggests a simple difference of opinion and you wise off. To what good?

FenceBored
08-25-2009, 01:25 PM
Why don't you give up the smart remarks . . . . they serve no purpose whatsoever.

Maybe stop getting in a snit every time someone doesn't agree with you . . . . in regard to things such as this and journalists writing skills. Its getting ridiculous, someone suggests a simple difference of opinion and you wise off. To what good?

Pardon me, but you're the one who has to start out with the attitude that nobody but the great Grits with her extensive racetrack experience could possibly know anything. You leave your attitude at the door and I'll leave mine. Alright?

depalma113
08-25-2009, 02:04 PM
I have little doubt that there will be another excuse for why rachel should not run in the jcgc that her fans will latch onto. Of course after the race is run they will claim that she would have won without actually winning.

The only way she doesn't show up in the JCGC is if Zenyatta makes the trip east for the Beldame. Otherwise, she will be there.

Grits
08-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Pardon me, but you're the one who has to start out with the attitude that nobody but the great Grits with her extensive racetrack experience could possibly know anything. You leave your attitude at the door and I'll leave mine. Alright?

FenceBored, what you've written here is obviously intentional. Its also cheap, ugly and juvenile, all of which I can ignore because I really don't care. On a messageboard, you won't be agreed with all the time. Especially here, with so many posters.

Alright, in answer to your question.

I understand you well, and I'll be mindful from now on how I phrase any responses to your posts, if I respond at all.

FenceBored
08-25-2009, 02:17 PM
The classics are races run at the classic american distance (10 furlongs and up). Last I checked the travers is 10 furlongs.

Actually, I'z just yanking your chain, but...

Yes, the 'classic' distance is 10f+ and we all smile and ignore the Preakness being 9.5f.

There are Classics and classics. If someone says they bought a 2yo or early 3yo to point at (or run in) the Classics they mean the Triple Crown. These are the races that if a horse wins he is called a Classic winner. Not the Travers, not the Pacific Classic, not the Arlington Classic, or the Woodford Reserve Turf Classic, or the Joe Hirsh Turf Classic, or the Kentucky Cup Classic. You get some confusion with the BC Classic, but that's another story.

Go around calling last year's winner Colonel John a Classic winner and see how many strange looks you get. Or see if you can find any page of the Stallion Register that uses the stand alone phrase "Classic Winner" that doesn't refer to a win in a Triple Crown race (or a foreign equivalent), or maybe the BC Classic.

So I agree that the Travers is a classic race. Like I said, I was just joshin' you, but I do think Jackson was only talking about the Preakness and the Belmont when he said Classics.

Java Gold@TFT
08-25-2009, 03:05 PM
The classics are races run at the classic american distance (10 furlongs and up). Last I checked the travers is 10 furlongs.

Classics since the purchase
Preakness
Belmont
Travers

Yep, Fence has you nailed again. You defined the criteria and conveniently include the Preakness while it doesn't meet your criteria. Java Gold wil never be considered a Classic winner. He only won the Travers, woodward and Marlboro Cup which are American Classic races but not considered Classics in terms of the industry. Is the Pac Classic a Clasic race? I sure don't think so but it fits your convenient definition. You never mentioned in your definition that a classic had to be limited to 3yos so every 10F and up race no matter what the surface is a classic because it is at the classic distance. If you really want to redefine it to 3yo races at 10F plus then I believe you are down to the Derby, Belmont and Travers. All others are open races or have other restrictions like the CCA Oaks. I love the Travers. I will be there this Saturday and have been almost every year since 1976. It's just not a Classic.

the little guy
08-25-2009, 03:15 PM
I may be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that the CCA Oaks is the only non-Triple Crown race considered a " Classic. "

I can't believe those gutless owners were scared off from that race ( and the likes of Funny Moon et al ) and took the cowardly Haskell route.

It is really sad that after watching one pretender after another earn praise for one mediocre performance after another, a really special filly like Rachel Alexandra comes along, who also follows one of the most ambitious campaigns a 3YO filly has attempted in at least 30 years ( and probably longer ), and some people are still knocking her and her connections.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Yep, Fence has you nailed again. You defined the criteria and conveniently include the Preakness while it doesn't meet your criteria.

Conveniently? I was trying to give rachel the benefit of the doubt by labeling the Preakness a classic. If you or the original poster only meant the triple crown races, they should just say that because obviously "the classics" have a different meaning to different people. I always considered the traver's part of "the classics"

Show Me the Wire
08-25-2009, 03:37 PM
I may be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that the CCA Oaks is the only non-Triple Crown race considered a " Classic. "

I can't believe those gutless owners were scared off from that race ( and the likes of Funny Moon et al ) and took the cowardly Haskell route.

It is really sad that after watching one pretender after another earn praise for one mediocre performance after another, a really special filly like Rachel Alexandra comes along, who also follows one of the most ambitious campaigns a 3YO filly has attempted in at least 30 years ( and probably longer ), and some people are still knocking her and her connections.


Why are they gutless? Isn't making the most money out of your investment more important than challenging another horse for supremecy?

I guess people like to knock Rachel's coneections for the same reason you knock others, because people do not understand what is motivating the connections.

the little guy
08-25-2009, 03:46 PM
Why are they gutless? Isn't making the most money out of your investment more important than challenging another horse for supremecy?

I guess people like to knock Rachel's coneections for the same reason you knock others, because people do not understand what is motivating the connections.

I thought it was obvious that I was kidding. How could it be gutless to have run in the Haskell as opposed to the CCA Oaks ( this year and most any year )?

Show Me the Wire
08-25-2009, 03:54 PM
TLG:

Originally. I was going to question you about your statements about the campaigns, but I decided not too.

I apologize. I did not get the irony.

Robert Fischer
08-25-2009, 04:59 PM
yea , Jackson has set a wonderful course with Rachel so far that exceeds expectations for how any could have hoped she would be campaigned.
The Travers is disappointing but should be obvious that he isn't ducking distance or competition. He simply has tons of pride in Kensei and more to gain with a Kensei victory in the Travers. Probably more people yelling for attention aka "trolling" than actually dispute that Rachel could handle the Travers field or distance.

The probable skipping of the Classic is also not a case of Jackson being gutless, more so a case of him being stubborn, and maybe one could guess a case of Asmussen not having the balls to tell him that Curlin wasn't "victimized" by the pro-ride surface in so much as Albarado, Navigator, and Ravens Pass.
Hopefully the sportsmanship that he has shown in bunches will get the best of him.

depalma113
08-25-2009, 06:14 PM
Asiatic Boy looks like the first to bow out.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 07:10 PM
maybe one could guess a case of Asmussen not having the balls to tell him that Curlin wasn't "victimized" by the pro-ride surface in so much as Albarado, Navigator, and Ravens Pass.


Why should asmussen lie to him? If the classic was on dirt 1) ravens pass and henry would not have run and 2) if they did run they would have gotten their lunch handed to them by curlin

11cashcall
08-25-2009, 08:22 PM
The probable skipping of the Classic is also not a case of Jackson being gutless, more so a case of him being stubborn, and maybe one could guess a case of Asmussen not having the balls to tell him that Curlin wasn't "victimized" by the pro-ride surface in so much as Albarado, Navigator, and Ravens Pass.
Hopefully the sportsmanship that he has shown in bunches will get the best of him.

Agree.Curlin would have lost the Classic on dirt imo.He was all out to beat Wandering Boy after all.Then their's the every ready blame it on Dubai.
Curlin's form was in decline, but the Media was bigger than the horse.

cj
08-25-2009, 08:38 PM
I don't buy the argument that Curlin was a tailing off horse at the end. I think it is revisionist history.

He ran faster on dirt before AND after his turf race than he did on turf. He clearly preferred dirt to turf, and any reasonable person can deduce from that he probably wouldn't like synthetics as much as dirt either. In fact, he ran pretty much the same exact race that he did on turf in the Classic.

The argument has also been made that his dirt races were a notch below those of his late 3yo and early 4yo season. While that is true SPEED figure wise, further study of the races shows he was still in fine form.

In the Foster, he overcame a very slow pace to still get up late and earn a 108 Beyer. The pace was sub 100, and you just aren't going to get a very fast final figure in that situation.

In his Saratoga appearance, he faced the opposite situation. The race pace was a brutal 133 and he still was able to record a 107 while winning. He ran 122 pace just to stay in shouting distance.

His Belmont race was a repeat of Churchill, no pace to speak of and having to overcome that to still WIN with a 111. Since when is a closer that overcomes slow paces declining?

I realize it is easy for people to just look at the easy stuff, in this case the speed figures, and make a judgment, but most times that judgment will be wrong if you don't dig deeper.

Now, to be fair, we will never really know if he was tailing off or not. But the way some state it as a certainty is way over the top to me. To think the horse would run the same on a totally different surface, one that clearly plays a lot like turf, is just ludicrous.

Robert Fischer
08-25-2009, 09:20 PM
Curlin may have run the best handicap division race of the year in Classic.
It was one of his stronger efforts. The 2007 Classic and Jockey Club Gold Cups are the only ones that come to mind as definitely stronger, altough i could be missing some.

I don't think he was tailing off. There weren't any good horses that could challenge him on dirt and he was the dirt champ. There were a handful horses that could challenge him on synthetic.

Maybe Curlin didn't like the synthetic, and maybe he just ran a near top because Asmussen has him peak for the big days. His 2007 top was probably in the classic. It's wide open for debate, and I'm sure my opinion isn't even understood by all. Some people may even think Tiago ran better in the Classic because of finish position...

bisket
08-25-2009, 09:33 PM
his best race by far of all his races was the preakness.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 09:50 PM
his best race by far of all his races was the preakness.

His preakness was ultra impressive but I wouldn't call it his best by far. His 2 fall races that year (jcgc and bc) were extremely impressive.

His best race might have been the dubai wc. The way he was moving that day, there wasn't a horse on the planet that would have come within 5 lengths of him. His acceleration at the top of the stretch was a breathtaking thing to watch.

ghostyapper
08-25-2009, 09:57 PM
In the Foster, he overcame a very slow pace to still get up late and earn a 108 Beyer. The pace was sub 100, and you just aren't going to get a very fast final figure in that situation.

In his Saratoga appearance, he faced the opposite situation. The race pace was a brutal 133 and he still was able to record a 107 while winning. He ran 122 pace just to stay in shouting distance.


He earned a 110 beyer in the foster and a 112 in the woodward, unless they changed it?

Robert Fischer
08-25-2009, 10:01 PM
His best race might have been the dubai wc. The way he was moving that day, there wasn't a horse on the planet that would have come within 5 lengths of him. His acceleration at the top of the stretch was a breathtaking thing to watch.

Yea that may have been. I admittedly don't have a great assessment of his performance that day. I know he did well, but I'm not sure how well.
Might fire up that replay in a minute when i get a chance.

Curlin was the real deal. :ThmbUp:

preakness- I think it was a great race, although I think he improved for the Classic. Another one race I want to watch again! lol this is sidetracking me from Wednesday's card.:cool:

cj
08-25-2009, 10:18 PM
He earned a 110 beyer in the foster and a 112 in the woodward, unless they changed it?

Those are my own figures, just on the Beyer scale...sorry about the confusion.

DanG
08-26-2009, 08:31 AM
The rumor is Rachel is being trained to do back flips in her final 1/8th to satisfy her critics.

I never thought I would read that the Kentucky Oaks, Preakness, Mother Goose, Haskell and now the Woodward are taking the path of least resistance. This is a 3yo filly that by today’s standards will be making her far better then top class average 15th start….right?

Stick around long enough in this game and you will hear it all… :faint:

FenceBored
08-26-2009, 09:09 AM
I may be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that the CCA Oaks is the only non-Triple Crown race considered a " Classic. "


Avalyn Hunter, in her book American Classic Pedigrees (1914-2002) uses the Triple Crown for the boys with the Ky Oaks and CCA Oaks for the girls, claiming that they are the two races in the original Filly Triple Crown (Ky Oaks, Pimlico Oaks/Black Eyed Susan, CCA Oaks) that have retained the same level of prestige.

FenceBored
08-26-2009, 09:47 AM
Conveniently? I was trying to give rachel the benefit of the doubt by labeling the Preakness a classic. If you or the original poster only meant the triple crown races, they should just say that because obviously "the classics" have a different meaning to different people. I always considered the traver's part of "the classics"

Go to Yahoo or Google, and type in "classic winner {followed by} Colonel John" for last year's Travers winner (Just trying to make sure my post doesn't create a hit). There are no hits on that phrase. Search for "classic winner Thunder Gulch" winner of the Ky Derby, Belmont and Travers (no pesky Preakness here) and the hits say 'dual classic winner.' If the Travers were generally considered by the industry as a Classic then those hits from Bloodhorse, and chef-de-race.com, and the Thoroughbred Times, and NTRA.com would say 'triple classic winner.' Search for "classic winner Point Given" (Preakness, no Derby) and you get the same thing. Search for "classic winner Lemon Drop Kid" and none of them that say 'dual classic winner,' despite his winning the Travers as well as the Belmont. If Lane's End had thought they could call Lemon Drop Kid a 'dual classic winner' when he went to stud, I think they would have given it a try.

Stevie Belmont
08-26-2009, 11:28 AM
The Woodward for Rachel Alexandra is a good pick for several reasons. And they all make solid sense.

First, connections have Kensei who is in top form right now, and, of all the others in the field, stands a good chance in the very least to hit the board. With a victory in the Travers he would certainly rocket in value as a stallion. You have to admit, Jess Jackson has a pretty good hand right now.

The ducking thing is pretty weak, especially for a horse the caliber of Rachel Alexandra. She has already proven she is a spectacular filly.

Rachel Alexandra has already done just about everything a filly can do. She has defeated her own and the colts. The Woodward is another opportunity to do something new and great, defeat the older handicap horses and become the first filly in history to win the Woodward.

There is no doubt that if she did run in the Travers she would be facing her stiffest challenge yet in the likes of Quality Road, but there is no urgency there to prove anything. It would be a tougher race for her. And with that being said Quality Road would face the best horse he has seen to date as well. No one is ducking anyone.

I guess some fans want to see it, but from the business perspective it makes more sense for Jess to select the Woodward for various reason already mentioned.

I’m pretty sure Quality Road’s people are happy they picked the Woodward as well—not because they are afraid or anything—but let’s face it, the path to victory in the Travers is a lot easier with her not running in it.

And the other big positive here is the fact you have two stars that will remain separated in different races. That is actually a good thing for everyone. They both get the spotlight on different days. It helps Saratoga, racing, and everyone else.

So sit back, get the wagers ready to go, and watch Thoroughbred Racing’s best close out another spectacular summer of racing at Saratoga.

SmartyLane
08-26-2009, 12:18 PM
AMEN :) :ThmbUp:

bisket
08-26-2009, 03:18 PM
stevie babe i guess you weren't to impressed with dunkirk.

bisket
08-26-2009, 03:23 PM
there needs to a definate reduction of grade1 races. i'm sick and tired of barns avoiding each other to run in another "grade 1" race. as fans we eat the bull!#*t and keep coming back for more. this goes on much to often. i'll pick the spot where my horse is garaunteed a win. why take chance on losing if i can avoid it. its getting old fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bisket
08-26-2009, 03:40 PM
stevie that last post wasn't directed at you. i was just blowing off some steam. thanks for your support ;)

Stevie Belmont
08-26-2009, 04:23 PM
Hey I liked Dunkirk and rated him quite well throughout the spring.

He was also my pick him to win the Belmont Stakes where he ran a great race.

bisket
08-26-2009, 04:30 PM
i didn't like him in the belmont, but i was ready to hit him hard in his next race after the belmont. pletcher is an easy mark. you can usually get a good read when he's training the horse. dunkirk was due to repeat his effort in the florida derby next out. without having to deal with quality road. to bad he got hurt.

Wickel
08-26-2009, 04:49 PM
i didn't like him in the belmont, but i was ready to hit him hard in his next race after the belmont. pletcher is an easy mark. you can usually get a good read when he's training the horse. dunkirk was due to repeat his effort in the florida derby next out. without having to deal with quality road. to bad he got hurt.

I liked Dunkirk a lot in the Belmont. But I worried he was too fresh a horse, coming off the layoff and all. Sure enough, no one wanted the lead and he set all the fractions. A more relaxed Dunkirk, rating just off the pace, might have gotten the job done. Nevertheless, I was drooling about the possibility of the Travers. Oh well ... hope he comes back sound.

PaceAdvantage
08-29-2009, 06:01 PM
But I don't want to hear that there's no doubt she can beat 3yo males at 10 furlongs or that she has nothing left to prove against any 3yo.There is nothing left to prove against any 3yo.

She beat the Derby winner....she IS the Preakness Winner....and she beat the Belmont Winner and the Travers Winner (who in turn beat Quality Road pretty handily).

I don't want to hear any more nonsense from you...:lol: (Just kidding...you are free to spout as much nonsense as you'd like...it's entertaining...)

Java Gold@TFT
08-29-2009, 06:27 PM
There is nothing left to prove against any 3yo.

She beat the Derby winner....she IS the Preakness Winner....and she beat the Belmont Winner and the Travers Winner (who in turn beat Quality Road pretty handily).

I don't want to hear any more nonsense from you...:lol: (Just kidding...you are free to spout as much nonsense as you'd like...it's entertaining...)
At least now there are two horses who have won two G-I's open to any 3yo in the country. ;)

cj
08-29-2009, 06:27 PM
There is nothing left to prove against any 3yo.

She beat the Derby winner....she IS the Preakness Winner....and she beat the Belmont Winner and the Travers Winner (who in turn beat Quality Road pretty handily).

I don't want to hear any more nonsense from you...:lol: (Just kidding...you are free to spout as much nonsense as you'd like...it's entertaining...)

She laughed at Summer Bird, who then won the Travers with ease. There is no competition of any sex or age right now. All the big races she doesn't enter are won by horses she smokes.

Java Gold@TFT
08-29-2009, 07:09 PM
She laughed at Summer Bird, who then won the Travers with ease. There is no competition of any sex or age right now. All the big races she doesn't enter are won by horses she smokes.
Four horses that Rachel beat have now come back to win G-I stakes AFTER she beat them - the winners of the CCA Oaks, the Test, the Secretariat and the Travers. And people who don't appreciate her will still ask - "Who did she beat?" Then add to the list that she beat the winners of the KY Derby and SA Derby (both G-I's) and give credit to Summer Bird for the Belmont and she has beaten the winners of 7 G-I's so far this year.. Yep, who did she beat?

Hopefully next Saturday she will add three more names to the list of G-I winners she has beaten this year.

cj
08-29-2009, 07:16 PM
You forgot the Acorn. Gabby's Golden Gal came back to win and pay $28 after being thrashed by a mere 29 lengths in the Oaks.

DRIVEWAY
08-29-2009, 07:27 PM
If Rachel never wins at a mile and a quarter or longer, should she become horse of the year?

Dodged them in the Derby, Belmont, Travers and BC Classic.

If Summer Bird goes on to win BC Classic, he gets my vote.

Java Gold@TFT
08-29-2009, 07:32 PM
You forgot the Acorn. Gabby's Golden Gal came back to win and pay $28 after being thrashed by a mere 29 lengths in the Oaks.
Sorry, my bad, I meant Acorn and not CCA Oaks. Funny Moon has been good at avoiding Rachel so far. The count still remains the same. And Flashing only won a G-I after a 33 length loss to Rachel.

cj
08-29-2009, 07:54 PM
If Rachel never wins at a mile and a quarter or longer, should she become horse of the year?

Dodged them in the Derby, Belmont, Travers and BC Classic.

If Summer Bird goes on to win BC Classic, he gets my vote.

The same Summer Bird she dominated in the Haskell? She would have beaten him if they went 3 more furlongs, let alone 1.

DRIVEWAY
08-29-2009, 08:06 PM
The same Summer Bird she dominated in the Haskell? She would have beaten him if they went 3 more furlongs, let alone 1.

You may be right. Especially on that day. Race was a prep for Summer Bird.

Has there ever been a dirt horse that became Horse Of The Year that didn't win at a mile and a quarter or longer?

Rachel still needs to add to her resume. To be considered a CLASSIC horse, you must win a Classic race. She dodged the Travers. She will dodge the BC Classic.
Resume incomplete.

No to Horse of the Year.

bisket
08-29-2009, 08:14 PM
i agree driveaway. this aint college football where the handicappers decide who wins the championship or not. the horse has got to win at a classic distance to prove she can do it. although i do believe she'll probably win, but jackson has got race her to prove it.

cj
08-29-2009, 08:16 PM
You may be right. Especially on that day. Race was a prep for Summer Bird.

Has there ever been a dirt horse that became Horse Of The Year that didn't win at a mile and a quarter or longer?

Rachel still needs to add to her resume. To be considered a CLASSIC horse, you must win a Classic race. She dodged the Travers. She will dodge the BC Classic.
Resume incomplete.

No to Horse of the Year.

What exactly was she dodging?

Tom
08-29-2009, 08:27 PM
The BC Classic is dodging horse racing.
Say she won today - should would have only beaten the same old horse again, proving nothing.

Let's see hows the 3yo BOYS do when (if) they take on older.
Curlin got beat by a girl going 12.

DRIVEWAY
08-29-2009, 08:31 PM
What exactly was she dodging?

Rachel has dodged running in a Grade 1 Race at a Mile and a quarter or longer.

The Preakness brings her ability at this distance into question. Rachel was so exhausted after the Preakness she skipped the Belmont. She has no excuse for passing the Travers. Jackson knows she's vulnerable at the Classic distance.

The publicized excuse for the BC Classic is the surface at Santa Anita.

No Derby, No Belmont, No Travers, No BC Classic = No "Horse of the Year".

She's a great 1 1/8 Mile horse. Beat Zenyatta and she could be best Filly/Mare. Not likely to happen. Why chance blemishing her record?
She's three year filly of the year. That's all she's proven.

Greatness is earned.

RXB
08-29-2009, 08:32 PM
You may be right. Especially on that day. Race was a prep for Summer Bird.

Has there ever been a dirt horse that became Horse Of The Year that didn't win at a mile and a quarter or longer?

Rachel still needs to add to her resume. To be considered a CLASSIC horse, you must win a Classic race. She dodged the Travers. She will dodge the BC Classic.
Resume incomplete.

No to Horse of the Year.

This is the best 3YO filly in quite some time. She won the Preakness; isn't that considered a "classic" race? She hasn't lost a race this year. The only other horses who are making any kind of case for consideration are Zenyatta and Gio Ponti. Zenyatta hasn't won any kind of "classic" race. Gio Ponti has the misfortune of being a grass horse and an older horse, both of which relegate him to the bottom of most people's minds.

Re: HoY without winning a 10f+ race, Favorite Trick and Azeri come to mind. There might've been others, I'm not sure.

DRIVEWAY
08-29-2009, 08:36 PM
This is the best 3YO filly in quite some time. She won the Preakness; isn't that considered a "classic" race? She hasn't lost a race this year. The only other horses who are making any kind of case for consideration are Zenyatta and Gio Ponti. Zenyatta hasn't won any kind of "classic" race. Gio Ponti has the misfortune of being a grass horse and an older horse, both of which relegate him to the bottom of most people's minds.

Re: HoY without winning a 10f+ race, Favorite Trick and Azeri come to mind. There might've been others, I'm not sure.

Zenyatta may go in the BC Classic. That would be great sportsmanship. Win and she's Horse of the Year.

CincyHorseplayer
08-29-2009, 08:57 PM
Zenyatta may go in the BC Classic. That would be great sportsmanship. Win and she's Horse of the Year.

No synthetic horse should be horse of the year.How many turf horses were HOY???My guess is not many.This new surface doesn't dictate what greatness entails all of the sudden.It's a specialist,niche surface.Traditional dirt is still the measure of greatness.

As to the distance argument,pretty weak.Different connections for Derby who had their minds made up.The mile and a half isn't a common distance for any horse unless they are on the lawn.Travers??What's to gain by beating horses you have already trounced??BC on dirt at 10 panels???When it happens and RA misses it,then come talk to me:cool:

DRIVEWAY
08-29-2009, 09:19 PM
No synthetic horse should be horse of the year.How many turf horses were HOY???My guess is not many.This new surface doesn't dictate what greatness entails all of the sudden.It's a specialist,niche surface.Traditional dirt is still the measure of greatness.

As to the distance argument,pretty weak.Different connections for Derby who had their minds made up.The mile and a half isn't a common distance for any horse unless they are on the lawn.Travers??What's to gain by beating horses you have already trounced??BC on dirt at 10 panels???When it happens and RA misses it,then come talk to me:cool:

The Dirt-Synthetic argument is difficult to argue either way. However, you point is well taken.

Your argument about missing the BC Classic because of synthetic may hold water. But why dodge a 1 1/4 against horses she's already trounced?

Rachel can't make the distance. Jackson is dodging the distance. Her exhaustion after the Preakness is proof enough for me.

One or two more races and she's done.

Resume will not include 1 1/4 win or victory vs. Zenyatta. First foal should be named Paper Tiger.

bisket
08-29-2009, 09:21 PM
not going to the classic raced on poly is not dodging. its smart

ghostyapper
08-29-2009, 09:22 PM
Rachel has dodged running in a Grade 1 Race at a Mile and a quarter or longer.

The Preakness brings her ability at this distance into question. Rachel was so exhausted after the Preakness she skipped the Belmont. She has no excuse for passing the Travers. Jackson knows she's vulnerable at the Classic distance.

The publicized excuse for the BC Classic is the surface at Santa Anita.

No Derby, No Belmont, No Travers, No BC Classic = No "Horse of the Year".

She's a great 1 1/8 Mile horse. Beat Zenyatta and she could be best Filly/Mare. Not likely to happen. Why chance blemishing her record?
She's three year filly of the year. That's all she's proven.

Greatness is earned.

She doesn't need to win at 10 furlong to be HOY but your post is right they know she is vulnerable at 10 furlongs. Her fan club doesn't want to admit this. Just look at the lame excuse they used for skipping the travers, kensai was a serious contender. :lol:

ryesteve
08-29-2009, 09:48 PM
Just look at the lame excuse they used for skipping the travers, kensai was a serious contender. :lol:
... sez the guy who cited kensai and quality road as the reasons why the Travers would be a much tougher race than the Woodward :D

DRIVEWAY
08-29-2009, 09:50 PM
She doesn't need to win at 10 furlong to be HOY but your post is right they know she is vulnerable at 10 furlongs. Her fan club doesn't want to admit this. Just look at the lame excuse they used for skipping the travers, kensai was a serious contender. :lol:

The Travers sets up as a great betting race. Rachel easily beats Summer Bird
in the Haskell and his odds are going to be great in the Travers. Then Jackson chickens out proving my theory that Rachel's a loser at 10F. Boy do I wish Rachel had run.

Don't know how she's HOY without beating Zenyatta or winning at 10F. The experts know Jackson dodged at least 4 chances to truly prove her greatness.
(Derby, Belmont, Travers, BC Distaff or Classic).

ghostyapper
08-29-2009, 11:46 PM
... sez the guy who cited kensai and quality road as the reasons why the Travers would be a much tougher race than the Woodward :D

and I stand by that. Interesting you decide to ignore summer bird since I mentioned him too. Hey don't get mad at me cause you were clueless when it comes to the handicap division and relied on previous winners of the race to judge the field.

ryesteve
08-29-2009, 11:54 PM
and I stand by that.If that performance by Kensai is supposed to support your argument that he's better than what'll show up in the Woodward, you're an even bigger fool than I thought, which really says a lot.

ghostyapper
08-29-2009, 11:57 PM
The Travers sets up as a great betting race. Rachel easily beats Summer Bird
in the Haskell and his odds are going to be great in the Travers. Then Jackson chickens out proving my theory that Rachel's a loser at 10F. Boy do I wish Rachel had run.

Don't know how she's HOY without beating Zenyatta or winning at 10F. The experts know Jackson dodged at least 4 chances to truly prove her greatness.
(Derby, Belmont, Travers, BC Distaff or Classic).

Jackson knows how vulnerable she is at 10f, thats why he is avoiding the races. If she loses at 10f to horses she's supposedly much better than, her chances at HOY take a serious hit. He knows this and is managing her carefully.

The problem are her fans who blindly believe she can win at any distance. Leading up to 10f+ races they make every excuse in the book on why she shouldn't run, then after the race is run they sit around and clamor about how easily she would have won the race.

ghostyapper
08-30-2009, 12:01 AM
If that performance by Kensai is supposed to support your argument that he's better than what'll show up in the Woodward, you're an even bigger fool than I thought, which really says a lot.

It's really a waste of time to argue with you since you have no clue and no real knowledge of what you are discussing. Since you lack these necessary things, you try to win an argument by just talking in circles in hopes that the other person will finally tire and give you the last word.

In judging the strength of the field you are focusing on the 3rd and 6th place finishers while ignoring the winner. You decided to only quote the first part of my post since you want to ignore summer bird who ran a fantastic race, certainly as a good a race as any older horse who will show up in that star studded woodward field.

We'll see how talented this woodward field is. In the meantime you can just study the past winners of the race for a cluehttp://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

ryesteve
08-30-2009, 12:08 AM
I like the way morons will accuse people of "talking in circles" when the problem is actually their inability to understand that their arguments are completely nonsensical.

I also like the way someone named "yapper" will complain about other people wanting to get the last word :D

ryesteve
08-30-2009, 12:20 AM
In judging the strength of the field you are focusing on the 3rd and 6th place finishers while ignoring the winner. And where was I judging the strength of the field? My only "focus" was in pointing out your schizophrenic evaluations of Kensai. I couldn't care less about rehashing the original argument, especially with someone who would look at this win and call it "fantastic"

PaceAdvantage
08-30-2009, 04:36 AM
If Summer Bird goes on to win BC Classic, he gets my vote.I laughed.

PaceAdvantage
08-30-2009, 04:38 AM
Don't know how she's HOY without beating Zenyatta or winning at 10F. The experts know Jackson dodged at least 4 chances to truly prove her greatness.
(Derby, Belmont, Travers, BC Distaff or Classic).Wowhow!

Nobody really believes this and calls themselves an educated racing fan, correct?

You're just writing this stuff (along with ghostyapper) to yank chains. I get it...

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 05:29 AM
The Travers sets up as a great betting race. Rachel easily beats Summer Bird
in the Haskell and his odds are going to be great in the Travers. Then Jackson chickens out proving my theory that Rachel's a loser at 10F. Boy do I wish Rachel had run.

Don't know how she's HOY without beating Zenyatta or winning at 10F. The experts know Jackson dodged at least 4 chances to truly prove her greatness.
(Derby, Belmont, Travers, BC Distaff or Classic).
Please stop citing the Derby as one of your criteria for dodging. Jackson did not own her before the Derby and her previous owner never intended to run her in any of the Classics against colts. He didn't even nominate her to the TC. Jackson had to pony up a supplemental fee just to get her in the Preakness. And I don't blame him at all for not running in the Belmont. It wasn't necessarily dodging anything but more like doing what was best for the health of his horse. Look at all of the horses in the Belmont and you will find two that ran in the Derby and Preakness. She ran a huge race the day before the Derby. I know it was 9F and not 10F but if the Oaks was run at 10F would this criticism about 10F go away? I doubt it but it's not like they were going to make up 20 lengths in another 1/8th of a mile. So her race in the Preakness came with the same rest as the others. So what if she came out of the Preakness a little tired. She was coming off of two big efforts and had just beaten the first 4 finishers in the KY Derby. She didn't need to "prove" anything by running in the Belmont.

BTW, you can also take the BC Distaff off your list as it is run at 9F.

DRIVEWAY
08-30-2009, 10:11 AM
Wowhow!

Nobody really believes this and calls themselves an educated racing fan, correct?

You're just writing this stuff (along with ghostyapper) to yank chains. I get it...

That's what makes it a parimutual game. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
If Rachel goes in the Travers, she's 3/2. Summer Bird probably at 6-1. In the last 1/16 we find out who's the best.

My opinion, Summer Bird is just better than Rachel Alexander at 1 1/4. RA stayed in her stall for that reason.

What's better on a horses resume - the Travers or the Woodward?

Today you could be talking about her victory in the Travers. Boy I wish she had showed up. A lot of educated racing fans would have learned a lesson.

ghostyapper
08-30-2009, 10:56 AM
Please stop citing the Derby as one of your criteria for dodging. Jackson did not own her before the Derby and her previous owner never intended to run her in any of the Classics against colts. He didn't even nominate her to the TC. Jackson had to pony up a supplemental fee just to get her in the Preakness. And I don't blame him at all for not running in the Belmont. It wasn't necessarily dodging anything but more like doing what was best for the health of his horse. Look at all of the horses in the Belmont and you will find two that ran in the Derby and Preakness. She ran a huge race the day before the Derby. I know it was 9F and not 10F but if the Oaks was run at 10F would this criticism about 10F go away? I doubt it but it's not like they were going to make up 20 lengths in another 1/8th of a mile. So her race in the Preakness came with the same rest as the others. So what if she came out of the Preakness a little tired. She was coming off of two big efforts and had just beaten the first 4 finishers in the KY Derby. She didn't need to "prove" anything by running in the Belmont.

BTW, you can also take the BC Distaff off your list as it is run at 9F.

And what about the travers? The lame excuse given on why she shouldn't run was that kensei was a serious contender and needed the win for his breeding prospects. How's that looking now?

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 11:13 AM
And what about the travers? The lame excuse given on why she shouldn't run was that kensei was a serious contender and needed the win for his breeding prospects. How's that looking now?
Well, considering that Kensei went off at 4-1 and was the 3rd choice in the betting I would say that a lot of people thought he was a serious contender in the race. So, it didn't work out in this race. Big deal. Jackson and Asmussen took a shot that they believed he had a serious chance of winning. I'm sure the owners of the other 5 horses who lost thought they had a contender too. You think all of the people who bet Charitable Man and Warrior's Reward didn't think they had a serious chance of winning the race?

ghostyapper
08-30-2009, 11:23 AM
Well, considering that Kensei went off at 4-1 and was the 3rd choice in the betting I would say that a lot of people thought he was a serious contender in the race. So, it didn't work out in this race. Big deal. Jackson and Asmussen took a shot that they believed he had a serious chance of winning. I'm sure the owners of the other 5 horses who lost thought they had a contender too. You think all of the people who bet Charitable Man and Warrior's Reward didn't think they had a serious chance of winning the race?

So according to the rachel rans they don't run her (when she would have walked over the field easily) because they have another serious contender in the barn and that contender ends up losing by 11 and the rachel fan club should take no flack for that ridiculous excuse?

Of course they can use the results of the race as proof that rachel is miles ahead of quality road, who didn't run well. Some setup they have http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

fmazur
08-30-2009, 12:26 PM
So according to the rachel rans they don't run her (when she would have walked over the field easily) because they have another serious contender in the barn and that contender ends up losing by 11 and the rachel fan club should take no flack for that ridiculous excuse?

Of course they can use the results of the race as proof that rachel is miles ahead of quality road, who didn't run well. Some setup they have
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course Rachel would have won and very easily. The last quarter in the Travers was run in 26 1/5(Rachel pulling up time) and this off the 3/4's which was in 1:11, 6 lengths slower than Rachels Haskell time while she was 3 wide on both turns turns.

Of course with an easy Rachel Travers win, you and Drivway would be posting on how Rachel ducked older horses in the Wood.

toetoe
08-30-2009, 12:46 PM
you tire me sometimes.

Plumb tuckered, eh ? [Sorry.]

cj
08-30-2009, 12:47 PM
When you are at the top, as RA is, the connections sole job is to let the others know where they can come race her. She doesn't have to "duck" anyone, they have to go get her. I doubt many are lining up for that task.

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 01:04 PM
And what about the travers? The lame excuse given on why she shouldn't run was that kensei was a serious contender and needed the win for his breeding prospects. How's that looking now?
So according to the rachel rans they don't run her (when she would have walked over the field easily) because they have another serious contender in the barn and that contender ends up losing by 11 and the rachel fan club should take no flack for that ridiculous excuse?

Of course they can use the results of the race as proof that rachel is miles ahead of quality road, who didn't run well. Some setup they have

What ridiculous excuse are you daydreaming about? You said that Jackson was using Kensei as na "excuse" for not running. I said he had a legitiamte contender. You never know the outcome until after the race. If you thought he wasn't a contender in the Travers then fine. The fact is the vasy majority of people who placed their money on the race thought he was a legitimate contender at 4-1. You make the contender decisions BEFORE the race and not with 20/20 hindsight. That seems to be your MO.

And who said anything about miles ahead of Quality Road? He got beat by Summer Bird.
http://www.timesunion.com/ASPStories/story.asp?StoryID=836504

"We are first, for colts," Ice said after going through the obligatory news conference for the Travers winners in the backyard of the jockey's room. "And, I think he's second, behind Rachel, as far as the 3-year-olds go. There is not a doubt. He proved that today."

So even Summer Bird's trainer admits that she is the best 3yo in the country and McLaughlin admits that she is probably the best race horse in the country right now and that's why he thought about sending Asiatic Man to Cal to avoid her. I don't understand the bashing over a 1/16th of a mile. You never answered the question about the Oaks or Mother Goose being 10F - would a win at an extra furlong those days be enough to stop your whining about 10F. It's not like they weren't G-I's and there was nobody going to touch her if they ran 3 miles. Or is your argument just that she has to "prove" herself to your satisfaction at 10F against colts. The only 3yo fillies in recent memory to do that before August were Genuine Risk, Winning Colors and Rags To Riches. You would have been at the top of the bitch list if she went to the CCA Oaks and blew away a field of 3 at 10F. You'll just never be satisfied. I, on the other hand, will be happy to be in Saratoga 7 years from now when she goes into the HOF. It's a very nice day and a fun ceremony.

toetoe
08-30-2009, 01:11 PM
I'll try to describe the former trainer's attitude, to wit:

"We'll keep her against her own sex. The colts go to the Derby, and the fillies go to the Oaks."

Um, quaint ? How about hidebound ? As bad as barring geldings from Classic races in England, so that if a mediocrity were to win a classic, his stud value should be fluffed up.

Jackson and Asmussen are to be commended for taking on all comers. It's not their fault that the divisions are maddeningly weak.

In fact, only one runner stands between RA and immortality. That Astrodirt specialist, bred in California, best of her division last year ... I give you ...

Stardom Bound.

Let's get ready to ... :sleeping: .

PaceAdvantage
08-30-2009, 02:03 PM
So according to the rachel rans they don't run her (when she would have walked over the field easily) because they have another serious contender in the barn and that contender ends up losing by 11 and the rachel fan club should take no flack for that ridiculous excuse?Meanwhile, the rachel bashers continue to ignore that she beat the Belmont and Travers winner handily in her last start...:lol:

cj
08-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Meanwhile, the rachel bashers continue to ignore that she beat the Belmont and Travers winner handily in her last start...:lol:

...and handily is an understatement in my opinion.

tucker6
08-30-2009, 02:28 PM
Plumb tuckered, eh ? [Sorry.]
Hey, good one. :ThmbUp:

I see he added a few friends he met at AA. I just don't get why people can't be happy racing has found a horse to rally around. It doesn't make any sense to me. You'd think RA was the fully participating getaway horse at a bank robbery.

ghostyapper
08-30-2009, 05:18 PM
Meanwhile, the rachel bashers continue to ignore that she beat the Belmont and Travers winner handily in her last start...:lol:

She beat him at 10 furlongs? Horses who run in the belmont and travers usually use the haskell as a prep, not the be all end all. So rachel beating Summer bird in a race where summer bird's connections were using as a prep undoubetly proves that she would have won the travers or belmont? Laughable.

Again all the rachel supporters can continue to blow hot air about how dominant she at 10 furlongs but she will continue to duck 10 furlong races and her fans will continue to make excuses about why she shouldn't run.

So after her dominating woodward performance shall we expect her for the jcgc or will there be a new excuse about having nothing left to prove against older horses?

bisket
08-30-2009, 05:49 PM
the ultimate bottom line is if rachel doesn't win at 1 1/4 miles her case for hoy isn't as strong. also when she starts spitting out foals its not a given that she's a stamina influence. this may seem that its not really important, but in reality its is. she didn't win anywhere near as convincingly in the preakness as she has at the shorter distances. it doesn't mean she can't or won't do it, but she does need to race at a classic distance of 1 1/4 mile or 1 1/2 mile. i still say playing rachel to win at 1 1/4 mile is alot like gambling than playing her to win at 1 1/8 mile

cj
08-30-2009, 06:00 PM
the ultimate bottom line is if rachel doesn't win at 1 1/4 miles her case for hoy isn't as strong. also when she starts spitting out foals its not a given that she's a stamina influence. this may seem that its not really important, but in reality its is. she didn't win anywhere near as convincingly in the preakness as she has at the shorter distances. it doesn't mean she can't or won't do it, but she does need to race at a classic distance of 1 1/4 mile or 1 1/2 mile. i still say playing rachel to win at 1 1/4 mile is alot like gambling than playing her to win at 1 1/8 mile

Really? If she doesn't run again this year, or wins the Woodward and doesn't run, it is over...done...finito.

rrbauer
08-30-2009, 06:10 PM
You win races by running in them. You beat the best by running against them. Word is out: RA will run in the Woodward. Want a piece of her ass?

Go get it.

cj
08-30-2009, 06:11 PM
You win races by running in them. You beat the best by running against them. Word is out: RA will run in the Woodward. Want a piece of her ass?

Go get it.

Yes, a race open to every horse on the planet 3 or older.

knine
08-30-2009, 06:19 PM
Yes, a race open to every horse on the planet 3 or older.
OK whos showing up in the Woodward,there saying its the weakess Woodward ever?Bullsbay,Macho Again,Bribon,The great Einstein...Absolute joke! :lol:

bisket
08-30-2009, 06:21 PM
Really? If she doesn't run again this year, or wins the Woodward and doesn't run, it is over...done...finito.
sorry but i don't get your point?

cj
08-30-2009, 06:27 PM
sorry but i don't get your point?

She is horse of the year.

Watcher
08-30-2009, 06:32 PM
The Travers sets up as a great betting race. Rachel easily beats Summer Bird
in the Haskell and his odds are going to be great in the Travers. Then Jackson chickens out proving my theory that Rachel's a loser at 10F. Boy do I wish Rachel had run.

Don't know how she's HOY without beating Zenyatta or winning at 10F. The experts know Jackson dodged at least 4 chances to truly prove her greatness.
(Derby, Belmont, Travers, BC Distaff or Classic).
To be super technical, wouldn't it be Jackson dodge at least 3 chances, considering he wasn't the owner when she ran in the Kentucky Oaks?

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 06:39 PM
OK whos showing up in the Woodward,there saying its the weakess Woodward ever?Bullsbay,Macho Again,Bribon,The great Einstein...Absolute joke! :lol:
Do you even follow this sport? Bribon? Einstein? Bribon is going to the Woodbine Mile next and Einstein is going to the Pac Classic. Read a little bit when you have an internet connection. The only horses she will have to beat are the first two horses in the Stephen Foster (G-I) and the Whitney (G-I). I realize that the bashers don't think these are as worthy of beating the Travers and Belmont winner but her race in the Woodward was announced well in advance of the Travers draw. If any of those owners thought they could win a G-I against older they could have easily skipped the Travers to meet her in the Woodward. Who's ducking who?

And cj is 100% correct - HOY is already wrapped up.

knine
08-30-2009, 06:45 PM
It wasnt a bash towards her,,you have to admit its the weakess woodward ever,the older division stinks.Asmussen did the right thing the Woodward is much weaker then the travers.

bisket
08-30-2009, 06:51 PM
at this point in time she has the strongest resume, but i don't think its entirely settled. there are some things that could happen to take it away from her, but if she beats older males or males at 1 1/4 mile theres no way it can be taken away from her. i think if ponti, einstein, or zenyatta wins the classic they could beat her as it stands right now. ponti and einstein only because they are males and have been winning in OPEN competition. now if rachel wins the woodward and jgc she's hoy no matter what happens cup day. yes rachel has beaten all 3 year old male and female competition handily, but hoy usually goes to an older horse thats shown to be above the rest of the competition. i don't think a win in the woodward gives rachel that pedastal, but that coupled with a victory in the jgc settles it. these two victories are definately within her grasp, but she's got to do it.

knine
08-30-2009, 06:56 PM
at this point in time she has the strongest resume, but i don't think its entirely settled. there are some things that could happen to take it away from her, but if she beats older males or males at 1 1/4 mile theres no way it can be taken away from her. i think if ponti, einstein, or zenyatta wins the classic they could beat her as it stands right now. ponti and einstein only because they are males and have been winning in OPEN competition. now if rachel wins the woodward and jgc she's hoy no matter what happens cup day. yes rachel has beaten all 3 year old male and female competition handily, but hoy usually goes to an older horse thats shown to be above the rest of the competition. i don't think a win in the woodward gives rachel that pedastal, but that coupled with a victory in the jgc settles it. these two victories are definately within her grasp, but she's got to do it.
What happens if Zenyatta wins out and beats the boys in the classic

cj
08-30-2009, 07:00 PM
What happens if Zenyatta wins out and beats the boys in the classic

She is second best horse in the land if that happens.

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 07:01 PM
It wasnt a bash towards her,,you have to admit its the weakess woodward ever,the older division stinks.Asmussen did the right thing the Woodward is much weaker then the travers.
Well, people said that Curlin struggled in the Woodward and the horse who pushed him will be back again on Saturday. It was another of the "who did he/she beat?" debates. So far this year she has beaten the winners of 6 G-I's and won 4 G-I's on her own. If she wins on Saturday she will add another 2 to the list. By comaprison, Zenyatta (who Rachel is supposedly supposed to "prove" herself against) has won 2 G-I's and beat one other G-I winner - her stablemate Life Is Sweet.

And I still want someone in the basher group to answer my question of Rachel winning at 10F against 3yo fillies. Would that be satisfactory to you or does it have to be colts. If she had gone in the CCA Oaks it would have been a joke and if the KY Oaks or Mother Goose had been run at 2 miles she would have won by more than 20. What is it? She has to "prove" her greatness only aginst colts or just at the distance?

knine
08-30-2009, 07:06 PM
Well, people said that Curlin struggled in the Woodward and the horse who pushed him will be back again on Saturday. It was another of the "who did he/she beat?" debates. So far this year she has beaten the winners of 6 G-I's and won 4 G-I's on her own. If she wins on Saturday she will add another 2 to the list. By comaprison, Zenyatta (who Rachel is supposedly supposed to "prove" herself against) has won 2 G-I's and beat one other G-I winner - her stablemate Life Is Sweet.

And I still want someone in the basher group to answer my question of Rachel winning at 10F against 3yo fillies. Would that be satisfactory to you or does it have to be colts. If she had gone in the CCA Oaks it would have been a joke and if the KY Oaks or Mother Goose had been run at 2 miles she would have won by more than 20. What is it? She has to "prove" her greatness only aginst colts or just at the distance?
Is she better then Dance Smartly who beat males going 1 1/4?

cj
08-30-2009, 07:11 PM
Well, people said that Curlin struggled in the Woodward and the horse who pushed him will be back again on Saturday. It was another of the "who did he/she beat?" debates. So far this year she has beaten the winners of 6 G-I's and won 4 G-I's on her own. If she wins on Saturday she will add another 2 to the list. By comaprison, Zenyatta (who Rachel is supposedly supposed to "prove" herself against) has won 2 G-I's and beat one other G-I winner - her stablemate Life Is Sweet.

And I still want someone in the basher group to answer my question of Rachel winning at 10F against 3yo fillies. Would that be satisfactory to you or does it have to be colts. If she had gone in the CCA Oaks it would have been a joke and if the KY Oaks or Mother Goose had been run at 2 miles she would have won by more than 20. What is it? She has to "prove" her greatness only aginst colts or just at the distance?

Not to mention she has yet to run as far as Rachel has. These arguments against her are ludicrous.

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 07:14 PM
Is she better then Dance Smartly who beat males going 1 1/4?
She is and if you want to bring up restricted races for "state breds" then you are grasping at straws. And I did love Dance Smartly and saw her run several times in person. Unfortunately Winstar is closing down at the end of this year and only Sam-Son will be left in the pantheon of Canadian racing.

Mineshaft
08-30-2009, 07:17 PM
She is second best horse in the land if that happens.




Thats a strong statement.

knine
08-30-2009, 07:18 PM
She is and if you want to bring up restricted races for "state breds" then you are grasping at straws. And I did love Dance Smartly and saw her run several times in person. Unfortunately Winstar is closing down at the end of this year and only Sam-Son will be left in the pantheon of Canadian racing.
Is she better then Go For Wand Or ladys Secret

FenceBored
08-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Is she better then Go For Wand Or ladys Secret

Of course, though not quite as good as Pepper's Pride.

Java Gold@TFT
08-30-2009, 07:44 PM
Is she better then Go For Wand Or ladys Secret
Check my post from another thread

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=743013&postcount=19

I put Rachel in the top three I have seen. That would put her up with Ruffian and Personal Ensign in my book. As far as 3yo years I would include Go For Wand instead of Personal Ensign. Lady's Secret was better at 4 than 3 and sadly I was at Saratoga the day she lost it all and bolted to the outside rail. It was terrifying to watch as she looked like she was going to break through the fence. Thankfully she was retired soon after.

ghostyapper
08-30-2009, 09:33 PM
but her race in the Woodward was announced well in advance of the Travers draw. If any of those owners thought they could win a G-I against older they could have easily skipped the Travers to meet her in the Woodward. Who's ducking who?

Again more nonsense. The trainers of horses pointing towards the travers were training their horses to run on august 29th, not september 5th. Rachel's connections announce that they are ducking the travers for the woodward and everyone is supposed to skip the travers and run for LESS in the woodward and run a week later?

If her connections thought she was a dominant 10 furlong horse they would have run her there, end of story. The options were with rachels connections and they decided to duck the race. It's not on pletcher or ice to skip the travers just to face rachel.

ghostyapper
08-30-2009, 09:39 PM
And I still want someone in the basher group to answer my question of Rachel winning at 10F against 3yo fillies. Would that be satisfactory to you or does it have to be colts. If she had gone in the CCA Oaks it would have been a joke and if the KY Oaks or Mother Goose had been run at 2 miles she would have won by more than 20. What is it? She has to "prove" her greatness only aginst colts or just at the distance?

I have little doubt she is the best filly/mare at 10 furlongs (lets leave zenyatta out because of the surface difference). For me beating a group of G1 colts or older at 10 furlongs would do it. Let's remember the only reason I am asking for this is the crap that was being said after the preakness or belmont (or now travers) how she was much the best and those horses weren't on the same level as her. I'm getting tired of hearing her fans saying she would have won this race or that in a walkover and yet they keep skipping those races.

Put up or shut up time JCGC. I don't wanna hear that she has nothing to prove or that they should try and get kensei a G1 again.

Steve R
08-30-2009, 10:08 PM
It wasnt a bash towards her,,you have to admit its the weakess woodward ever,the older division stinks.Asmussen did the right thing the Woodward is much weaker then the travers.

Weakest Woodward ever? You must have a short memory. Remember last year? Aside from Curlin, whose best Beyer Figure after the DWC was a modest 112, there was Past the Point, Wanderin Boy, A. P. Arrow, Loose Leaf, Divine Park and Out of Control (BRZ). Apart from Curlin, I believe only Divine Park was a GSW in 2008, winning the Westchester H. with a BSF of 112 and the Metropolitan H. with a paltry BSF of 103. This year's potential Woodward field is measurably better from top to bottom, unless the better boys defect out of fear.

I've been watching racing since the days of Native Dancer and IMO Rachel Alexandra is at least equal in ability to distaffers such as Personal Ensign, Shuvee and Lady's Secret.

PaceAdvantage
08-30-2009, 11:23 PM
This obsession that some have with Rachel and 10 furlongs is out of control.

She won the Preakness at 9.5 furlongs after facing some nice early pressure.

I sincerely doubt that with her ability to relax off the pace, that extra half furlong is going to be the thing that slams her into the proverbial wall.

And I don't understand where ghostyapper is getting the garbage that "Rachel supporters" on here have been saying she would dominate at 10f.

Nobody has ever said that...

We're just not as obsessed as you are...and we don't see 10f as a problem.

Her breeding doesn't suggest 10f will be a problem, and she has already won the PREAKNESS with pace pressure going 9.5f.

The Rachel bashers' case is as weak as they come.

cj
08-30-2009, 11:30 PM
This obsession that some have with Rachel and 10 furlongs is out of control.

She won the Preakness at 9.5 furlongs after facing some nice early pressure.

I sincerely doubt that with her ability to relax off the pace, that extra half furlong is going to be the thing that slams her into the proverbial wall.

And I don't understand where ghostyapper is getting the garbage that "Rachel supporters" on here have been saying she would dominate at 10f.

Nobody has ever said that...

We're just not as obsessed as you are...and we don't see 10f as a problem.

Her breeding doesn't suggest 10f will be a problem, and she has already won the PREAKNESS with pace pressure going 9.5f.

The Rachel bashers' case is as weak as they come.

Rachel relaxes a lot better now that the new trainer has had some time with her. Big Drama went seriously fast. No horse is going to run the fast at 10f, and if they do, it won't matter.

bisket
08-30-2009, 11:40 PM
Rachel relaxes a lot better now that the new trainer has had some time with her. Big Drama went seriously fast. No horse is going to run the fast at 10f, and if they do, it won't matter.
this is spot on. i like the way assmussen trains and works his routers. she has shown improvement as far as relaxing, and this should help her. i think if the woodward leads to jockey club they've made the right decisions. the jcgc could very well serve as the classic this year as it did back in the 70's

ghostyapper
08-31-2009, 07:15 AM
And I don't understand where ghostyapper is getting the garbage that "Rachel supporters" on here have been saying she would dominate at 10f.

Nobody has ever said that...


Unless you don't know how to navigate your own forum I can't possibly see how you can be serious with this comment. After the preakness all we heard was she was much the best and with a better trip would have won the race much easier. After the belmont all we heard was had she run she would have won easily. Now after the travers we hear that she would have won by a pole since she beat the winner by 6 in their previous start.

It's time to put that theory to the test in the JCGC. Will she show???? Or does she have a date with some 9 furlong race at philly park that they will be upping the purse to 1 mill for her? I can picture jackson now. "She's already proven she can win at belmont we want her to show that she can win at philly and also show her off to the philly fans"

depalma113
08-31-2009, 08:27 AM
the ultimate bottom line is if rachel doesn't win at 1 1/4 miles her case for hoy isn't as strong. also when she starts spitting out foals its not a given that she's a stamina influence. this may seem that its not really important, but in reality its is. she didn't win anywhere near as convincingly in the preakness as she has at the shorter distances. it doesn't mean she can't or won't do it, but she does need to race at a classic distance of 1 1/4 mile or 1 1/2 mile. i still say playing rachel to win at 1 1/4 mile is alot like gambling than playing her to win at 1 1/8 mile

Really?

Wood Memorial, Jersey Derby, Preakness Stakes, Jim Dandy Stakes, Woodward Stakes.

That is a HOY winning resume for a 3 year-old.

Kentucky Oaks, Preakness Stakes, Mother Goose Stakes, Haskell Invitational, Woodward Stakes (if she wins) is easily on par with that.

tucker6
08-31-2009, 09:00 AM
After the preakness all we heard was she was much the best and with a better trip would have won the race much easier.

I thought she had a good trip in the Preakness. It was a difficult race, as she had a couple rabbits to deal with. She handled it as well as one could. However, that did take a lot out of her. She had just given two huge efforts in two weeks (Ky Oaks and Preakness), and some are still complaining she ducked the competition at the Belmont. You're probably the same person that would be all over Asmussen and Jackson for abuse if she had run the Belmont and broken down on the track.

Some people are never happy with being happy.

DRIVEWAY
08-31-2009, 10:47 AM
I thought she had a good trip in the Preakness. It was a difficult race, as she had a couple rabbits to deal with. She handled it as well as one could. However, that did take a lot out of her. She had just given two huge efforts in two weeks (Ky Oaks and Preakness), and some are still complaining she ducked the competition at the Belmont. You're probably the same person that would be all over Asmussen and Jackson for abuse if she had run the Belmont and broken down on the track.

Some people are never happy with being happy.

RA was knocked out after the Preakness. If she had run in the Belmont, she was toast. Then Rags to Riches would have stood out having beaten Curlin and RA having failed at the distance. Asmussen and Jackson couldn't let that happen.

The 2007 Belmont Stakes was the 139th running of the Belmont Stakes. The race was held on June 9, 2007. Rags to Riches won the race by a head over Curlin before a crowd of 46,870, becoming the first filly to win the Belmont since 1905 and to win a Triple Crown race...

There are no woulda, coulda, ifs and buts, about Rags To Riches. Rags to Riches thats how you spell greatness.

bisket
08-31-2009, 10:54 AM
RA was knocked out after the Preakness. If she had run in the Belmont, she was toast. Then Rags to Riches would have stood out having beaten Curlin and RA having failed at the distance. Asmussen and Jackson couldn't let that happen.

The 2007 Belmont Stakes was the 139th running of the Belmont Stakes. The race was held on June 9, 2007. Rags to Riches won the race by a head over Curlin before a crowd of 46,870, becoming the first filly to win the Belmont since 1905 and to win a Triple Crown race...

There are no woulda, coulda, ifs and buts, about Rags To Riches. Rags to Riches thats how you spell greatness.
i think thats why her last race of the year will jcgc. asmmussen and jackson have made the right choices.

DRIVEWAY
08-31-2009, 10:59 AM
i think thats why her last race of the year will jcgc. asmmussen and jackson have made the right choices.

That would be true sportsmanship on their part. Then I will have no reservations about the horse's ability. Let NYRA boost the purse and get a full gate of contenders. Then Rachel Alexander could be crowned as champion(HOY).

FenceBored
08-31-2009, 11:23 AM
RA was knocked out after the Preakness. If she had run in the Belmont, she was toast. Then Rags to Riches would have stood out having beaten Curlin and RA having failed at the distance. Asmussen and Jackson couldn't let that happen.

The 2007 Belmont Stakes was the 139th running of the Belmont Stakes. The race was held on June 9, 2007. Rags to Riches won the race by a head over Curlin before a crowd of 46,870, becoming the first filly to win the Belmont since 1905 and to win a Triple Crown race...

There are no woulda, coulda, ifs and buts, about Rags To Riches. Rags to Riches thats how you spell greatness.

What race did this Rags to Riches run between the Ky Oaks and the Belmont? Curlin and Hard Spun ran in the Preakness. Rags rested and trained, so she came into the Belmont fresh and fit, like Summer Bird and Dunkirk did this year. Wiggins was pointing Rachel at the Acorn (per Morrison's instructions) and so was anticipating having 5 weeks till her next race. What if Jackson had purchased her, and then decided to hold off for the Belmont? We'll never know, because he ran her in a tight spot and got spooked by how much it took out of her. I don't think the Preakness proves anything about her ability to get 10f+ (long explanation, do it some other time), but I have to agree it looks like Misters Asmussen and Jackson may have their doubts.

Thanks for bringing up Rags to Riches, the other dual Classic winning filly of the Century.

rastajenk
08-31-2009, 11:38 AM
I've never seen anybody with such a hard-on for ten furlongs. It's uncanny.

DRIVEWAY
08-31-2009, 12:16 PM
I've never seen anybody with such a hard-on for ten furlongs. It's uncanny.

Someone from Ohio racing, the land of the $2500 gelding, should talk about 5fl and Mr. Softee.:lol:

DRIVEWAY
08-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Summer Bird likely for Jcgc at Belmont. Summer Bird gets 110 beyer for Travers.
A victory in jcgc paves way for best three year colt. Will face MTB in BC Classic to help decide 3yr old champ.

Rachel Alexander can cement her credentials for HOY in either contest. Add Zenyatta and Arc de Triomphe contenders, run a week earlier this year, to BC Classic and exciting racing awaits.

tucker6
08-31-2009, 06:02 PM
Summer Bird likely for Jcgc at Belmont. Summer Bird gets 110 beyer for Travers.
A victory in jcgc paves way for best three year colt. Will face MTB in BC Classic to help decide 3yr old champ.


If RA races in, and wins, the JCGC, she will be named 3 yr old champ. No questions asked. I also think if she wins the Woodward and JCGC, she is HOY and an all-time great at the tender age of 3.

46zilzal
08-31-2009, 06:47 PM
All time great is, and the hallowed air that accompanies it, limited to those horses that BLOW away all comers over an EXTENDED period of time, carry great weight, run and do well in conditions that are detrimental to their style........

This one is the press darling right now, as per usual superlatives are brought out and OVERUSED long before the animal at hand even qualifies they are so in need of a real hero. This one is still a work in progress. ALL TIME GREAT is still far off.

ghostyapper
08-31-2009, 07:23 PM
All time great is, and the hallowed air that accompanies it, limited to those horses that BLOW away all comers over an EXTENDED period of time, carry great weight, run and do well in conditions that are detrimental to their style........

This one is the press darling right now, as per usual superlatives are brought out and OVERUSED long before the animal at hand even qualifies they are so in need of a real hero. This one is still a work in progress. ALL TIME GREAT is still far off.

I can't believe that I am saying this was that was a great post. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/I9.gif

I am sure all those who are criticizing everyone for not calling rachel the greatest yet are the same one's who were gushing over the likes of smarty, bernardini, and big brown.

Java Gold@TFT
08-31-2009, 07:29 PM
All time great is, and the hallowed air that accompanies it, limited to those horses that BLOW away all comers over an EXTENDED period of time, carry great weight, run and do well in conditions that are detrimental to their style........

This one is the press darling right now, as per usual superlatives are brought out and OVERUSED long before the animal at hand even qualifies they are so in need of a real hero. This one is still a work in progress. ALL TIME GREAT is still far off.
Are there any horses in the last 25 years or so that fit your criteria? That would bring you back to about the era of John Henry (who really diddn't BLOW AWAY his competitiion but I'll let you slide on that part of the criterai if you want to include him.) Seeing as you insist on an EXTENDED period of time that would leave out any horse who didn't race at 4. So, Personal Ensign? Cigar? Lady's Secret? How many more blew away their competition under extreme conditons over an extended period of time?

tucker6
08-31-2009, 07:38 PM
Are there any horses in the last 25 years or so that fit your criteria? That would bring you back to about the era of John Henry (who really diddn't BLOW AWAY his competitiion but I'll let you slide on that part of the criterai if you want to include him.) Seeing as you insist on an EXTENDED period of time that would leave out any horse who didn't race at 4. So, Personal Ensign? Cigar? Lady's Secret? How many more blew away their competition under extreme conditons over an extended period of time?
Don't forget that under his criteria, Secretariat and Man O'War were not all-time greats. Neither made it past 3 racing. :rolleyes:

ghostyapper
08-31-2009, 07:41 PM
How many more blew away their competition under extreme conditons over an extended period of time?

He didn't say they have to blow away their competition under extreme conditions in the same race.

Personal Ensign didn't blow away winning colors in the 88 distaff but it might have been the best performance of her career.

ghostyapper
08-31-2009, 07:45 PM
Don't forget that under his criteria, Secretariat and Man O'War were not all-time greats. Neither made it past 3 racing. :rolleyes:

There are exceptions for horses that set track records in all 3 TC races and one's that win by 100 lengths ;)

tucker6
08-31-2009, 07:48 PM
I can't believe that I am saying this was that was a great post. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/I9.gif

I am sure all those who are criticizing everyone for not calling rachel the greatest yet are the same one's who were gushing over the likes of smarty, bernardini, and big brown.No. Hell no. Double hell no. Those horses were good for their year, but were not even top ten in their decade. IMHO.

Great is a horse that sets or nearly sets track/stakes records on a consistent basis at a range of distance, including classic ones. Desired, but not required, is longevity on the track (need at least 15 races) and multiple surfaces.

A sample of those who make the grade since 1970 are ...

sec
Bid
John Henry
Cigar
Forego

ghostyapper
08-31-2009, 07:51 PM
A sample of those who make the grade since 1970 are ...

sec
Bid
John Henry
Cigar
Forego

I hope it's just a sample because you left more talent off the list than on it...

tucker6
08-31-2009, 07:54 PM
I hope it's just a sample because you left more talent off the list than on it...
yes there are, but I got plumb tuckered out typing. I can think of 5 or 6 more. Come to think of it, a top ten contest/list since 1970 would be fun.

cj
08-31-2009, 09:32 PM
I can't believe that I am saying this was that was a great post. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/I9.gif

I am sure all those who are criticizing everyone for not calling rachel the greatest yet are the same one's who were gushing over the likes of smarty, bernardini, and big brown.

This is simply not true at all. Smarty Jones? Please. Bernardini? A very good horse, but certainly not great. I said it then and I say it now. Big Brown isn't even worthy of the discussion.

I've seen very few horses in my day of serious following (mid 80s) that I considered great. I think Rachel is really, really special.

PaceAdvantage
09-01-2009, 10:54 AM
A lot of people seem to be repeating themselves for no good reason.

Bottom line is, Rachel is entered in a race that anyone can enter. Any 3yo male who wanted a shot at her could take it in the Woodward...Zenyatta could take her shot...there are no restrictions here....they aren't ducking anything.

For zilly to actually say Rachel is simply the flavor of the month is truly deranged.

Imagine, a THREE-YEAR-OLD filly who doesn't keep to her own kind (because she simply DOMINATES), doesn't carry her track around with her, switches connections mid-campaign, wins on fast tracks, off tracks, on the lead, from off the pace....a THREE-YEAR-OLD filly who beats top 3yo males in the PREAKNESS and the HASKELL, and whose next race is against OLDER MALES isn't a flavor of the month....and isn't ducking anything or anyone....

And some dare to call her a "press darling??"

Plus, as CJ pointed out, the horses finishing behind her end up coming back and winning major races....ala HOLY BULL in 1994....

But I suppose zilly thinks Holy Bull was just another 3yo "press darling" too....:lol:

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 11:12 AM
A lot of people seem to be repeating themselves for no good reason.

Bottom line is, Rachel is entered in a race that anyone can enter. Any 3yo male who wanted a shot at her could take it in the Woodward...Zenyatta could take her shot...there are no restrictions here....they aren't ducking anything.

Hmm so let me guess. The people repeating themselves that you have a problem with are the one's whose opinion differ from yours correct? God knows the rachel supporters say the same thing over and over and over....

Because she is running in the woodward, which is an open race does not excuse her for ducking the travers. Like I said already (call it repeating for no good reason) why would summer bird or quality road skip the travers to run for less money just so they can face rachel? Not to mention that their trainers were training them to run last saturday not next saturday. Rachels connections come out that they are ducking the travers and everyone is supposed to scrap their plans and go run in the woodward?

It looks like summer bird and quality road are both pointing towards the jcgc. Will rachel show?

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 11:16 AM
This is simply not true at all. Smarty Jones? Please. Bernardini? A very good horse, but certainly not great. I said it then and I say it now. Big Brown isn't even worthy of the discussion.

I've seen very few horses in my day of serious following (mid 80s) that I considered great. I think Rachel is really, really special.

Ok because you weren't gaga over those horses does not mean alot of people on this board weren't. Sure it's easy to say now bernardini or BB weren't greats but people (including reporters and people inside the game and certainly many on these boards) were actually comparing them to secretariat when they were running.

FenceBored
09-01-2009, 11:27 AM
Ok because you weren't gaga over those horses does not mean alot of people on this board weren't. Sure it's easy to say now bernardini or BB weren't greats but people (including reporters and people inside the game and certainly many on these boards) were actually comparing them to secretariat when they were running.

I liked all the Bernardini/Lava Man stuff before the 2006 BC. Gave me a better price on Invasor.:D

cj
09-01-2009, 11:33 AM
Ok because you weren't gaga over those horses does not mean alot of people on this board weren't. Sure it's easy to say now bernardini or BB weren't greats but people (including reporters and people inside the game and certainly many on these boards) were actually comparing them to secretariat when they were running.

My point was that a lot of the people are very reasonable and are the very ones that were not "gaga" over the horses you mentioned. You made a very general, and wrong, assumption.

cj
09-01-2009, 11:35 AM
I liked all the Bernardini/Lava Man stuff before the 2006 BC. Gave me a better price on Invasor.:D

I don't know of one serious bettor that liked Lava Man.

FenceBored
09-01-2009, 11:37 AM
Hmm so let me guess. The people repeating themselves that you have a problem with are the one's whose opinion differ from yours correct? God knows the rachel supporters say the same thing over and over and over....

Because she is running in the woodward, which is an open race does not excuse her for ducking the travers. Like I said already (call it repeating for no good reason) why would summer bird or quality road skip the travers to run for less money just so they can face rachel? Not to mention that their trainers were training them to run last saturday not next saturday. Rachels connections come out that they are ducking the travers and everyone is supposed to scrap their plans and go run in the woodward?

It looks like summer bird and quality road are both pointing towards the jcgc. Will rachel show?

If there was no consideration of running Quality Road in the Woodward, why'd they nominate him? Maybe that was a fall back postition for them, but they did allow for the possibility. And actually it would have made a better fit, stretching out from 6.5 to 9f instead of 6.5 to 10f.

FenceBored
09-01-2009, 11:40 AM
I don't know of one serious bettor that liked Lava Man.

That may be true, but the press coverage was the Bernardini-Lava Man showdown. There were even tee shirts with just those two, as if everyone else in the race was an extra on a movie set.

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 11:50 AM
My point was that a lot of the people are very reasonable and are the very ones that were not "gaga" over the horses you mentioned. You made a very general, and wrong, assumption.

And how do you know this to be wrong? Are you saying that no 1 was gaga over those horses or that you know the majority of the rachel supporters were not gaga over those horses?

All I know is every time there's a very talented horse running there's plenty of people on these boards saying they're all time greats.

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 11:53 AM
If there was no consideration of running Quality Road in the Woodward, why'd they nominate him? Maybe that was a fall back postition for them, but they did allow for the possibility. And actually it would have made a better fit, stretching out from 6.5 to 9f instead of 6.5 to 10f.

In hindsight you're right, 9 furlongs might have been a betters step up for quality road. But they went for the travers for the same reason horses do every year over the woodward, bigger purse and more prestigious.

However this year some want people to act like the woodward is the race to run in.

cj
09-01-2009, 12:06 PM
And how do you know this to be wrong? Are you saying that no 1 was gaga over those horses or that you know the majority of the rachel supporters were not gaga over those horses?

All I know is every time there's a very talented horse running there's plenty of people on these boards saying they're all time greats.

Nope, not saying nobody. But this is what you said:

"I am sure all those who are criticizing everyone for not calling rachel the greatest yet are the same one's who were gushing over the likes of smarty, bernardini, and big brown."

I agree, people go overboard on horses. I almost always take the other side. This time, I just don't see a reason to criticize this horse or her connections. They are doing things nobody has ever done before, and yet people still nitpick.

I mean ducking Quality Road? Really? The horse was way down on the list in my opinion. His comeback race was overblown because of a faulty timer, and most serious bettors didn't take the 6.5f to 10f move seriously. Was she ducking Summer Bird? Hard to take that seriously, she just BLEW HIS DOORS OFF.

I will be the first to admit he was very impressive in the Travers. His figures are huge for me and comparable to what Rachel Alexandra has done already. I think she has some competition in him as well as Careless Jewel. But running a three year old against colts in two highly prestigious G1s, then stepping up to face older males in one of the most prestigious G1s in the country isn't ducking anybody or anything.

I think you are making way too much out of the 10f thing. First, she already won going a half furlong shorter. She faced a very taxing pace off of TWO weeks rest. Even then, I didn't see any sign Mine That Bird was passing her if the race was another 110 yards. It is hard to imagine him having more favorable circumstances than he did that day.

Summer Bird, maybe with that trip, gives her a scare...who really knows? But given his new found close to the pace running style, I don't see it.

I think the proof is in what the horses she destroys come back to do. She is able to run very good horses into the ground. You can't always measure everything a racehorse has, and I think Rachel throws in those short, quick bursts of speed that leave other horses gasping trying to keep up. You can't measure that with pace and speed figures, but you can see the results. Horses struggle to run with her, then back up, wilt, or even completely fall apart.

Java Gold@TFT
09-01-2009, 12:33 PM
cj, :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Steve R
09-01-2009, 12:48 PM
In hindsight you're right, 9 furlongs might have been a betters step up for quality road. But they went for the travers for the same reason horses do every year over the woodward, bigger purse and more prestigious.

However this year some want people to act like the woodward is the race to run in.

I don't know what your historical perspective of the game is, but if you'll scan the list of Woodward winners vs. Travers winners over the last 50 years I think you'll find that the latter seriously pales in comparison. The Travers remains a restricted race and is prestigious for three-year-olds only. I believe since 1954, the year the Woodward was initiated, there are only a half dozen or so Travers winners that ever went on to Horse of the Year honors at any point in their career. The figure for the Woodward is closer to a dozen and a half and would likely be higher were it not for several horses with multiple Woodward wins. I guess "prestige" is in the eye of the beholder.

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 01:08 PM
I think you are making way too much out of the 10f thing. First, she already won going a half furlong shorter. She faced a very taxing pace off of TWO weeks rest. Even then, I didn't see any sign Mine That Bird was passing her if the race was another 110 yards. It is hard to imagine him having more favorable circumstances than he did that day.


We've been through this Preakness argument many times so there's no point in getting into it again but briefly not only do I feel MTB would have caught her at 10 furlongs, but he would have caught her at the preakness distance if he didn't have traffic problems.

But I think she is vulnerable at 10 furlongs+ and you think she's not. She can prove either of us wrong in the jcgc. Let's see if they show. If they don't they will strengthen the argument against her abilities at 10 furlongs.

classhandicapper
09-01-2009, 02:17 PM
I think she's an all time great filly, but I'm not 100% convinced she's as great as her current reputation among her biggest supporters. Calling her an all time great doesn't leave much room between me and what I think some others think, but I think there's a narrow gap in there. So I'd like to see a little more.

The fillies she was beating up on were a pretty sub par group and I think a few of her Beyer figures were not clear (something I elaborated on in the past). Granted, she crushed them and proved vast superiority. But I think sometimes people get a little carried away with huge wins and fast figures earned against very inferior opponents.

I think Careless Jewel's huge win in the Alabama has kind of revealed the lack of quality among the rest of the 3YO fillies. (By the way, Careless Jewel is obviously a very good filly also. I wouldn't mind seeing that match up. Careless Jewel seems to be reaching her peak now).

She has beaten the best 3YO colts available to date (which further confirmed her greatness), but I'm not convinced this is a very good group of 3YO colts or that she caught them on their best day either. I'm sort of suspect about a few of the Beyer figures assigned to some of the major colt races because of off tracks, changing track speed etc..

Lastly, I'm not sure how much a win in the Woodward is going to prove because this is obviously a very weak group of older colts. The best 3YO colts will eventually have a field day against them.

What I would really like to see is a match up with a truly top notch colt ready to fire his best shot, a match up with Zenyatta (perhaps at 10F on dirt to make it closer to neutral), or a race with Careless Jewel.

A win against any outstanding colt on a good day or a clear cut dominant win against one of the two fillies I mentioned and I'll make a contribution to the statue. :ThmbUp: Until then, I'm going to keep her a 1/2 notch below the best fillies I have ever seen.

classhandicapper
09-01-2009, 02:49 PM
By the way, I wouldn't mind seeing a match up with Icon Project either, though she's probably a tad more suspect to hold the form she showed in the Personal Ensign

Java Gold@TFT
09-01-2009, 03:59 PM
We've been through this Preakness argument many times so there's no point in getting into it again but briefly not only do I feel MTB would have caught her at 10 furlongs, but he would have caught her at the preakness distance if he didn't have traffic problems.


Way too funny - the same guy who continually says that Rachel fans use the woulduvcoulduv excuse uses the exact same excuse for a race she actually WON. MTB didn't catch her regardless of the trip and didn't catch her when they hit the finish line. Mr woulduvcoulduvshoulduv. If he was going to win another race since the Derby then he SHOULD have run better that day. As cj has repeatedly pointed out, she was the one that got the worst of the pace. MTB sat on his ass too long to get to her. He had no traffic problems. he had to go outsside at the top of thestretch but he never had to stop any acceleration. The result would not have changed in another 1/16th of a mile - go back and watch the race one more time. The finish line comes when it comes and every jockey in the race knew where it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbF1kZQLjA

Tell me agin how he passed her on the gallop out. I sure as hell didn't see it.

tucker6
09-01-2009, 04:31 PM
I think she's an all time great filly, but I'm not 100% convinced she's as great as her current reputation among her biggest supporters. Calling her an all time great doesn't leave much room between me and what I think some others think, but I think there's a narrow gap in there. So I'd like to see a little more.

The fillies she was beating up on were a pretty sub par group and I think a few of her Beyer figures were not clear (something I elaborated on in the past). Granted, she crushed them and proved vast superiority. But I think sometimes people get a little carried away with huge wins and fast figures earned against very inferior opponents.

I think Careless Jewel's huge win in the Alabama has kind of revealed the lack of quality among the rest of the 3YO fillies. (By the way, Careless Jewel is obviously a very good filly also. I wouldn't mind seeing that match up. Careless Jewel seems to be reaching her peak now).

She has beaten the best 3YO colts available to date (which further confirmed her greatness), but I'm not convinced this is a very good group of 3YO colts or that she caught them on their best day either. I'm sort of suspect about a few of the Beyer figures assigned to some of the major colt races because of off tracks, changing track speed etc..

Lastly, I'm not sure how much a win in the Woodward is going to prove because this is obviously a very weak group of older colts. The best 3YO colts will eventually have a field day against them.

What I would really like to see is a match up with a truly top notch colt ready to fire his best shot, a match up with Zenyatta (perhaps at 10F on dirt to make it closer to neutral), or a race with Careless Jewel.

A win against any outstanding colt on a good day or a clear cut dominant win against one of the two fillies I mentioned and I'll make a contribution to the statue. :ThmbUp: Until then, I'm going to keep her a 1/2 notch below the best fillies I have ever seen.
I'm not sure Beyer numbers and lengths won by are good measures for the reasons you state. I like to see all-time greats as those who repeatedly come near or break records and/or have the intestinal fortitude (Cigar) to dig deep time and time again down the stretch with the will to win no matter what. That's my definition.

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 04:34 PM
Way too funny - the same guy who continually says that Rachel fans use the woulduvcoulduv excuse uses the exact same excuse for a race she actually WON. MTB didn't catch her regardless of the trip and didn't catch her when they hit the finish line. Mr woulduvcoulduvshoulduv. If he was going to win another race since the Derby then he SHOULD have run better that day. As cj has repeatedly pointed out, she was the one that got the worst of the pace. MTB sat on his ass too long to get to her. He had no traffic problems. he had to go outsside at the top of thestretch but he never had to stop any acceleration. The result would not have changed in another 1/16th of a mile - go back and watch the race one more time. The finish line comes when it comes and every jockey in the race knew where it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbF1kZQLjA

Tell me agin how he passed her on the gallop out. I sure as hell didn't see it.

Again I am not gonna get into another 10 page Preakness argument. I said my opinion of the race and lets leave it like that. If you bother to read those original threads you will see how I explain that the gallop out is meaningless considering smith had both hands on the reins slowing down MTB while calvin was slapping Rachel with his right hand in celebration well after the wire, hence the gallop out is meaningless.

And I would think that an educated fan of the game like you could see the difference between saying a horse would have won had he had a better trip and saying a horse would have won had they entered in the race but I guess the rachel obsession is blinding your judgement

tucker6
09-01-2009, 04:34 PM
But I think she is vulnerable at 10 furlongs+ and you think she's not.
Other than your opinion that MTB would have caught RA in a 10F Preakness even though Borel was not pressing at the very end, what other evidence can you present to us that backs up your view that RA cannot get to 10F before the men can??

tucker6
09-01-2009, 04:41 PM
I guess the rachel obsession is blinding your judgement
Oh the irony! :lol:

WinterTriangle
09-01-2009, 05:25 PM
By the way, I wouldn't mind seeing a match up with Icon Project either, though she's probably a tad more suspect to hold the form she showed in the Personal Ensign

Didn't Icon Project win her last out before the Personal ensign by about 14 lengths or something?

I didn't look at the PE until after it was run, but was surprised she went off at such high odds.

ghostyapper
09-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Other than your opinion that MTB would have caught RA in a 10F Preakness even though Borel was not pressing at the very end, what other evidence can you present to us that backs up your view that RA cannot get to 10F before the men can??

Borel hasn't pressed at the very end in any of her recent races but the preakness is the only 1 where her margin of victory was dwindling rapidly at the end.

So after a narrow victory in the preakness her connections have:

Skipped the Belmont
Skipped the Alabama
Skipped the Travers

Now cue the excuses rant

the little guy
09-01-2009, 09:29 PM
Borel hasn't pressed at the very end in any of her recent races but the preakness is the only 1 where her margin of victory was dwindling rapidly at the end.

So after a narrow victory in the preakness her connections have:

Skipped the Belmont
Skipped the Alabama
Skipped the Travers

Now cue the excuses rant


They skipped the King George VI and Prix Rothschild as well. If they pass the Arc next it will be the most gutless decision of all time.

Plus, I don't know how you feel, but that NY Turf Writers was there for the taking.

cj
09-01-2009, 11:13 PM
They skipped the King George VI and Prix Rothschild as well. If they pass the Arc next it will be the most gutless decision of all time.

Plus, I don't know how you feel, but that NY Turf Writers was there for the taking.

Wow, you are in the zone right now.

Irish Boy
09-01-2009, 11:23 PM
They skipped the King George VI and Prix Rothschild as well. If they pass the Arc next it will be the most gutless decision of all time.

Plus, I don't know how you feel, but that NY Turf Writers was there for the taking.

I LOLed pretty hard at this.

rjorio
09-02-2009, 02:27 PM
Rachel passed on the Breeders Crown Open Trot at the Meadowlands too. Now that woul have been a real test.

bisket
09-02-2009, 04:44 PM
most of the "serious bettors" on this board thought kensei was the world beater in the travers :lol: so we'll keep their opinions in the proper perspective :ThmbUp:

GaryG
09-02-2009, 04:53 PM
most of the "serious bettors" on this board thought kensei was the world beater in the travers :lol: so we'll keep their opinions in the proper perspective :ThmbUp:I don't know who you have in mind but I am quite serious about this game and I tabbed Summer Bird. :bang:

bisket
09-02-2009, 04:56 PM
I don't know who you have in mind but I am quite serious about this game and I tabbed Summer Bird. :bang:
pretty piece of cappin there gary :ThmbUp: just like to poke a little fun when i get the chance ;)

Java Gold@TFT
09-02-2009, 05:04 PM
most of the "serious bettors" on this board thought kensei was the world beater in the travers :lol: so we'll keep their opinions in the proper perspective :ThmbUp:
Poking fun aside but if you really read the Travers pick thread you can obviously see that too many ill-thought handicappers mentioned Charitable Man and Warrior's Reward before they mentioned Kensei. And I know you are just having fun. ;)

Hanover1
09-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Rachel passed on the Breeders Crown Open Trot at the Meadowlands too. Now that woul have been a real test.
Jackson has also indicated that she will not attend the World Trotting Derby this weekend, as there is a post time conflict, however he did mention that the Kentucky Futurity may be an option, along with many others. He said: "She could have handled Muscle Hill in the Hambo", but had nothing to prove, as well.

bisket
09-02-2009, 05:56 PM
Poking fun aside but if you really read the Travers pick thread you can obviously see that too many ill-thought handicappers mentioned Charitable Man and Warrior's Reward before they mentioned Kensei. And I know you are just having fun. ;)
truly; being on the wrong horse is part of the game. we are all guilty of it. its best to have a short memory and remember as handicappers we all live in glass houses, and you know the rest of the story. :bang: