Signers

[FantasticDan]

As a nickel and dime player (and a lousy one at that), I've never had a signer in my short horse betting career. The most I've ever won on a single bet was well under the $600 signer threshold.

Anyway, I was wondering about the tax ramifications. A few yrs back, my wife (when she was still my g/f), once won about $800 in a NYS Lottery game. Come tax time, she had to claim the $200 that was over and above the $600, and that $200 then came off the refund she was due. The lottery office gave her form w-2g (I think) which she was required to file.

So do signers work likewise? They eat into your tax refund (if you're due one), and you'll actually have to pay if the amount of signers exceeds your refund?

Do all tracks/OTBs also provide you with form w-2g and you're responsible for the taxes? Do any tracks take the taxes at time of payout?

Is there any way to "get around" paying the taxes on signer winnings? ;)

I'd like to hear people's experiences...

[andymays]

You can only write off your losings to the extent of your winnings and not more. It is unlikely that you'll get audited for gambling winnings but if you do you better have good records. I was audited in 1997 for a large score. It was a nightmare. When you play on line there is no wiggle room because even non "irs sign up" winnings are recorded. When you play live there is wiggle room.

[46zilzal]

Come up here.......... there is NEVER a "signer" for ANY wager ever.

[Tape Reader]

Hey, I get a chance to red board.

I had a signer this week at Saratoga. A $6,112.00 triple. They took $1,527.00 in taxes.

I was approached by a "ten percenter", but I love my freedom too much.

Best tax advice? Pay the taxes.

[Bruddah]

Hey, I get a chance to red board.

I had a signer this week at Saratoga. A $6,112.00 triple. They took $1,527.00 in taxes.

I was approached by a "ten percenter", but I love my freedom too much.

Best tax advice? Pay the taxes.

Amen to that Brudddah! It's always best to have them take it out at the time you get paid. Then you don't have to worry about it at tax time. I wouldn't give anyone a percentage just to screw Uncle Sam and have to worry about audits etc.

A lot to be said about a clear conscience. (JMHO)

[FantasticDan]

So (some?) tracks give you the choice if you want the tax taken at payout or later when you file?

[judd]

no, its automatic they take out

[hbeck]

no, its automatic they take out

Only if it a tax ticket (>299-1) AND it is over $5,000. Otherwise they do not take out and just give you a W2G.

[Pace Cap'n]

no, its automatic they take out
--------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by judd : Today at 05:32 PM. Reason: misspel


x 2

[jonnielu]

Hey, I get a chance to red board.

I had a signer this week at Saratoga. A $6,112.00 triple. They took $1,527.00 in taxes.

I was approached by a "ten percenter", but I love my freedom too much.

Best tax advice? Pay the taxes.

Too bad that your $1,527.00 won't buy you one second of freedom. Maybe I should come up there and buy tickets for 95%, I love the look clerks get on their faces when I tell them that is no law that compels me to authorize the withholding by signing anything. And, that without my authorization, there is none.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Amen to that Brudddah! It's always best to have them take it out at the time you get paid. Then you don't have to worry about it at tax time. I wouldn't give anyone a percentage just to screw Uncle Sam and have to worry about audits etc.

A lot to be said about a clear conscience. (JMHO)

To bad you couldn't have been there on the Lexington-Concorde bridge, to explain that it is always better to complie with the whimsy of the Prince.

jdl

[Jeff P]

I have to ask...

JDL, what happens when you tell them that?

Do they decide not to withhold?

Do they pay out without making you sign?

Or do they hand the ticket back to you and say: "Why don't you hang on to this then. Bring it back here when you're ready to show proper id, sign, and get your money."


-jp

.

[Mineshaft]

no, its automatic they take out





No its not..

[Irish Boy]

I have to ask...

JDL, what happens when you tell them that?

Do they decide not to withhold?

Do they pay out without making you sign?

Or do they hand the ticket back to you and say: "Why don't you hang on to this then. Bring it back here when you're ready to show proper id, sign, and get your money."


-jp

.

I could be wrong, but I don't think they make you sign on $3.20 winners.

[jonnielu]

I have to ask...

JDL, what happens when you tell them that?

Do they decide not to withhold?

Do they pay out without making you sign?

Or do they hand the ticket back to you and say: "Why don't you hang on to this then. Bring it back here when you're ready to show proper id, sign, and get your money."


-jp

.

Usually, on a first go-round, a supervisor is sent for. Then I explain that anyone that wishes to withhold certainly may, but, if they do not have a legal authority to do so, they will be subjecting themselves to my legal action. Because I will not give them any legal authority by signing a form.

That could be messy, and none of the entities involved want any publicity on these matters, and nobody wants to be put in the position of proving that I am a taxpayer, and for them to make such a determination would be a crime if they have no authority to make such determinations.

The little bit of arguement I do get is designed to either discover that I don't know what I'm talking about, or to intimidate me into backing down. I don't back down when I am right.

Nobody wants to go to jail, including IRS agents and those third parties that operate their scams through.

You'd be surprised how many rights you have, if you were simply willing to believe that you have rights in the first place. The risk, is only in your head.

jdl

[cj]

Usually, on a first go-round, a supervisor is sent for. Then I explain that anyone that wishes to withhold certainly may, but, if they do not have a legal authority to do so, they will be subjecting themselves to my legal action. Because I will not give them any legal authority by signing a form.

That could be messy, and none of the entities involved want any publicity on these matters, and nobody wants to be put in the position of proving that I am a taxpayer, and for them to make such a determination would be a crime if they have no authority to make such determinations.

The little bit of arguement I do get is designed to either discover that I don't know what I'm talking about, or to intimidate me into backing down. I don't back down when I am right.

Nobody wants to go to jail, including IRS agents and those third parties that operate their scams through.

You'd be surprised how many rights you have, if you were simply willing to believe that you have rights in the first place. The risk, is only in your head.

jdl

I ran this through babblefish:

"I sign the paper"

[bisket]

i bet small enough to stay away from w2's, but this year i hit the bluegrass and i took me over the threashold. its better to just buck up and play it straight. its not worth the trouble. sometimes you win and still lose

[CBedo]

Amen to that Brudddah! It's always best to have them take it out at the time you get paid. Then you don't have to worry about it at tax time. (JMHO)This is just ludicrous. Having Uncle Same "hold" your money til the end of the year is a terrible investment. First off, even if you can get it all back at the end of the year, do you realize how much money this is taking out of the mutuel pools for the year? Secondly, if you are writing off losses against it, you have to carry the losses, while the government gets the gain til the end of the year, and they're holding your money while paying you no interest. In my opinion, if you get to the end of the year and Uncle Sam owes you money, you haven't done a very good job of tax planning.

[Bruddah]

To bad you couldn't have been there on the Lexington-Concorde bridge, to explain that it is always better to complie with the whimsy of the Prince.

jdl

Jonnielu, in case you missed it, we are 200+ years beyond that bridge and now have Representation. Be it what may, see your Represenative if you have a beef with the Law of the Land. As for me, I pay it when I score. I sleep a whole lot better every April 15th. :ThmbUp:

P.S. If I make the magic age for signers ( almost there) I may be available for 50%. :lol:

[Bruddah]

This is just ludicrous. Having Uncle Same "hold" your money til the end of the year is a terrible investment. First off, even if you can get it all back at the end of the year, do you realize how much money this is taking out of the mutuel pools for the year? Secondly, if you are writing off losses against it, you have to carry the losses, while the government gets the gain til the end of the year, and they're holding your money while paying you no interest. In my opinion, if you get to the end of the year and Uncle Sam owes you money, you haven't done a very good job of tax planning.

The few dollars gained by the method you describe (technically you're right) is not worth the peace of mind I get doing it my way. I play one 50+ day meet per year and make more doing so than many professionals who play all year.

I hate paying taxes as much as anyone. I use every LEGAL method to pay as little as possible. I also know from my younger years, it can be difficult to come up with the money for taxes on my windfalls. If you want to enjoy this Sport and not cringe every April 15th, pay the taxes when you score. :ThmbUp:

[raybo]

I've had many signers since going "all superfectas", all online wagers. The ADW sends you the form and then you claim them on your return. It's not hard to set aside, from each of your signers, enough money to pay the taxes.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Usually, on a first go-round, a supervisor is sent for. Then I explain that anyone that wishes to withhold certainly may, but, if they do not have a legal authority to do so, they will be subjecting themselves to my legal action. Because I will not give them any legal authority by signing a form.

That could be messy, and none of the entities involved want any publicity on these matters, and nobody wants to be put in the position of proving that I am a taxpayer, and for them to make such a determination would be a crime if they have no authority to make such determinations.

The little bit of arguement I do get is designed to either discover that I don't know what I'm talking about, or to intimidate me into backing down. I don't back down when I am right.

Nobody wants to go to jail, including IRS agents and those third parties that operate their scams through.

You'd be surprised how many rights you have, if you were simply willing to believe that you have rights in the first place. The risk, is only in your head.

jdl
How many different locations/ADWs have you tried this at, and have you always got the full amount?

[jonnielu]

Jonnielu, in case you missed it, we are 200+ years beyond that bridge and now have Representation. Be it what may, see your Represenative if you have a beef with the Law of the Land. As for me, I pay it when I score. I sleep a whole lot better every April 15th. :ThmbUp:

P.S. If I make the magic age for signers ( almost there) I may be available for 50%. :lol:

I have no beef whatsoever with the law of the land, if not for it, I would be a prisoner of the same lies. Certainly, an understanding of the law of the land is the only thing that insures my freedom.

Every April 15th, before I go to sleep, I try to go by the main post office in town. To watch and consider that there are so many in this country that care not for freedom. And to remind myself, that for over 20 years, I was amongst that herd.

jdl

[eastie]

i thought when they hold back that 25%, if you can show the losses and the sister tix, you can get that back at the end of the year. The so called 10 percenter will actually pay you to let them cash the ticket. This only applies to tix where the 25% is withheld. for the other tax tickets where there is no withholding is when you have to pay them.

[Irish Boy]

Oh, I see where this is headed. Jonnielu is a "there is no income tax" nut.

[jonnielu]

How many different locations/ADWs have you tried this at, and have you always got the full amount?

It's interesting that you should ask, since you know that I can put out a few signers in a week, and you have an ADW. I only use an ADW for road testing and to establish records:

2009-07-15 14:29:18 Bet* Arlington 8 Superfecta $0.10 3+4+6+10 $2.40 $710.55

But, say I had made the bet with you, at the $2 level, I supposedly would have already agreed to withholding through your user agreement. And, you would withhold automatically. My remedy would be to have you produce your "delegation of authority", which you don't have, and, that fact nullifies your user agreement.

At that point, your user agreement does not govern, IRS and Congress does not govern. The state of Oregon does, I have rights in Oregon, that a corporate licensee of that state does not enjoy.

jdl

[andymays]

It's interesting that you should ask, since you know that I can put out a few signers in a week, and you have an ADW. I only use an ADW for road testing and to establish records:

2009-07-15 14:29:18 Bet* Arlington 8 Superfecta $0.10 3+4+6+10 $2.40 $710.55

But, say I had made the bet with you, at the $2 level, I supposedly would have already agreed to withholding through your user agreement. And, you would withhold automatically. My remedy would be to have you produce your "delegation of authority", which you don't have, and, that fact nullifies your user agreement.

At that point, your user agreement does not govern, IRS and Congress does not govern. The state of Oregon does, I have rights in Oregon, that a corporate licensee of that state does not enjoy.

jdl


Don't they take an extra 5% when you make a bet at a satellite facility in Oregon? Or something like that. Maybe $105 to bet a $100???

[jonnielu]

Oh, I see where this is headed. Jonnielu is a "there is no income tax" nut.

Of course there is an income tax, Title 26, USC (United States Code).

jdl

[jonnielu]

Don't they take an extra 5% when you make a bet at a satellite facility in Oregon? Or something like that. Maybe $105 to bet a $100???

If Oregon has a state income tax, it would be for that. Many states like to get in on the federal income tax, since the country is full of suckers, they figure what the hell? If people will send it, without asking any questions, why not put it over there with the rest of the money that the suckers send in?

jdl

[andymays]

If Oregon has a state income tax, it would be for that. Many states like to get in on the federal income tax, since the country is full of suckers, they figure what the hell? If people will send it, without asking any questions, why not put it over there with the rest of the money that the suckers send in?

jdl


So is what I noted true or how does it work there? It is different on track though right? Or wrong?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It's interesting that you should ask, since you know that I can put out a few signers in a week, and you have an ADW. I only use an ADW for road testing and to establish records:

2009-07-15 14:29:18 Bet* Arlington 8 Superfecta $0.10 3+4+6+10 $2.40 $710.55

But, say I had made the bet with you, at the $2 level, I supposedly would have already agreed to withholding through your user agreement. And, you would withhold automatically. My remedy would be to have you produce your "delegation of authority", which you don't have, and, that fact nullifies your user agreement.

At that point, your user agreement does not govern, IRS and Congress does not govern. The state of Oregon does, I have rights in Oregon, that a corporate licensee of that state does not enjoy.

jdl
Jonnielu, you didn't answer my original question.

How many different locations/ADWs have you tried this at, and have you always got the full amount?

Would you mind trying again? Since you are "in the right" I'm sure you have no problem giving an open honest answer, not an answer "in theory."

[jonnielu]

So is what I noted true or how does it work there? It is different on track though right? Or wrong?

If you live in Oregon, it is assumed that you are liable for any income taxes in Oregon.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Jonnielu, you didn't answer my original question.

How many different locations/ADWs have you tried this at, and have you always got the full amount?

Would you mind trying again? Since you are "in the right" I'm sure you have no problem giving an open honest answer, not an answer "in theory."

One track, 2 OTB's.

jdl

[andymays]

If you live in Oregon, it is assumed that you are liable for any income taxes in Oregon.

jdl


I'm asking about the 5% thing. How does it work?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

One track, 2 OTB's.

jdl
For someone who is capable of cashing a signer or two a week, can I assume that you have done this quite a few times each at these locations?
Let me rephrase it. How many times have you got away without signing or withholding? And have there been times that you didn't get away with it?

[jonnielu]

I'm asking about the 5% thing. How does it work?

I am assuming that any venue located in a state that has a state income tax would want to also withhold a percentage for that tax if the winner lives in that state. Or, if a resident of Louisiana makes a bet on Youbet.com, Youbet probably also withholds for LA's income tax, whatever the percentage would be.

jdl

[andymays]

I am assuming that any venue located in a state that has a state income tax would want to also withhold a percentage for that tax if the winner lives in that state. Or, if a resident of Louisiana makes a bet on Youbet.com, Youbet probably also withholds for LA's income tax, whatever the percentage would be.

jdl


I'm not talking about taxes. I'm talking about being in a facility that is off track and making a bet. Isn't there a 5% fee or whatever you want to call it when you make a bet off track?

[ryesteve]

Geez, two pages of posts since the original questions, and neither one of you two can get a straight answer from this loon, and yet you persist...

[andymays]

Geez, two pages of posts since the original questions, and neither one of you two can get a straight answer from this loon, and yet you persist...


He's not one of those guys with aluminum foil all around the house is he?

[Bruddah]

In 1974, I had a $12k signer. I was a young man and wanted that extra little bit of money to play with, besides, it was March and I had a full year until the tax would be due. Needless to say, come April 15, 1975, I didn't have the money and had to make arrangements with the I.R.S. I was 27 years old and it was a tuff year in paying those extra taxes. My ability to pay any windfall gains taxes has become much easier over the years, yet, I reflect back on 1975 and remember all the angst and sleepless nights I went through.

A word to the young cappers and to the wise, pay those taxes when you collect the windfall. Yes, it's easy enough to set the money aside, but 99% will not.

[jonnielu]

For someone who is capable of cashing a signer or two a week, can I assume that you have done this quite a few times each at these locations?
Let me rephrase it. How many times have you got away without signing or withholding? And have there been times that you didn't get away with it?

Since I am not "getting away" with anything, I haven't paid an income tax since 1992. I don't appreciate being treated or talked to like a criminal because I choose to honor the Declaration by living by it.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I'm not talking about taxes. I'm talking about being in a facility that is off track and making a bet. Isn't there a 5% fee or whatever you want to call it when you make a bet off track?

I'd imagine that Cangamble might know about that, I don't.

jdl

[ryesteve]

He's not one of those guys with aluminum foil all around the house is he?He gets insulted when you say that, but he doesn't exactly deny it:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703595&postcount=24

[andymays]

He gets insulted when you say that, but he doesn't exactly deny it:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703595&postcount=24


Got it!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Since I am not "getting away" with anything, I haven't paid an income tax since 1992. I don't appreciate being treated or talked to like a criminal because I choose to honor the Declaration by living by it.

jdl
OK. How many times have you received full amount without signing or withholding for bets that others have signed or have money withheld? Ballpark?

[ddog]

Since I am not "getting away" with anything, I haven't paid an income tax since 1992. I don't appreciate being treated or talked to like a criminal because I choose to honor the Declaration by living by it.

jdl

Yeah, we wouldn't want you to get offended by being called an anchor or a free loader - since it appears you are still in the country(?) and taking advantage of all that OTHER people's tax money buys you in the way of security and amenities.

What a LOSER!

[jonnielu]

He gets insulted when you say that, but he doesn't exactly deny it:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703595&postcount=24

I see that you aren't holding your breath either.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Yeah, we wouldn't want you to get offended by being called an anchor or a free loader - since it appears you are still in the country(?) and taking advantage of all that OTHER people's tax money buys you in the way of security and amenities.

What a LOSER!

The federal income tax buys both of us nothing. If you think it does, give an example.

jdl

[jonnielu]

OK. How many times have you received full amount without signing or withholding for bets that others have signed or have money withheld? Ballpark?

Is that a trick question of some kind? I can't see any reason that I would recieve any money for a bet that someone else signed for and had money withheld. Are you asking if I have someone else cash the ticket? Why would I do that if I am the person that is not subject to withholding?

jdl

[BlueShoe]

Hasnt there been legislation proposed recently to amend the withholding laws on larger payoffs?Seem to recall reading op eds in the DRF not long ago about this.

[rrpic6]

I'd really like to believe that if I went to Portland Meadows and hit a tri for $800, the following would happen: I go to the IRS window, refuse to show any ID or SS Number. The teller says "cool, here's your $800". I walk away without a care in the world. Now Portland Meadows contacts the IRS. They explain what I did. The IRS, says "cool, leave that guy alone. We don't care either".
I must be doing something wrong. I've had signers in 10 states, and they all want my SS Number and a w2-G form filled out. My home state, Ohio wants 3% of all winnings. Not profit, but winnings. This led me down a long road of proving I'm a professional gambler, to avoid paying taxes on the winnings, just the profit. The IRS has been on my case since 2001. Even after winning my case in 2003, they tried to reopen it in 2008.

Wesley Snipes had delusions like jdl. He got away with it for awhile, but now is sitting behind bars. Bragging about not paying taxes is not very smart. The IRS loves when they get anonymous calls turning in thieves.

RR

[cj]

Is that a trick question of some kind? I can't see any reason that I would recieve any money for a bet that someone else signed for and had money withheld. Are you asking if I have someone else cash the ticket? Why would I do that if I am the person that is not subject to withholding?

jdl

Ok, lets put is so easy even you can understand:

How many times have you received full amount without signing or withholding for bets that others with a similar winning ticket have signed or have money withheld? Ballpark?

[jonnielu]

I'd really like to believe that if I went to Portland Meadows and hit a tri for $800, the following would happen: I go to the IRS window, refuse to show any ID or SS Number. The teller says "cool, here's your $800". I walk away without a care in the world. Now Portland Meadows contacts the IRS. They explain what I did. The IRS, says "cool, leave that guy alone. We don't care either".
I must be doing something wrong. I've had signers in 10 states, and they all want my SS Number and a w2-G form filled out. My home state, Ohio wants 3% of all winnings. Not profit, but winnings. This led me down a long road of proving I'm a professional gambler, to avoid paying taxes on the winnings, just the profit. The IRS has been on my case since 2001. Even after winning my case in 2003, they tried to reopen it in 2008.

Wesley Snipes had delusions like jdl. He got away with it for awhile, but now is sitting behind bars. Bragging about not paying taxes is not very smart. The IRS loves when they get anonymous calls turning in thieves.

RR

It's not my fault that you and Wesley Snipes are confused about your citizenship and federal jurisdiction. I don't like being called a thief either. The thieves are the people that you allow to extort your money, not me.

The IRS can prosecute me anytime that they would like, but first they will have to have something to prosecute me for.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Ok, lets put is so easy even you can understand:

How many times have you received full amount without signing or withholding for bets that others with a similar winning ticket have signed or have money withheld? Ballpark?

Five.

jdl

[TurfRuler]

Five.

jdl

There was a recent large pick six payoff. The site where the winning wager was made, according to articles I read, made the person who won wait for verification that the wager was placed legally and was indeed a winning pick six. I believe this person had to wait a day or two before being paid off.

And you say, if it had been you, then you could have collected the entire payoff with out showing your ID and SSN, signing that the wager site is keeping the percent of federal and or state taxes. I wasn't born yesterday and I don't believe you believe that you can get paid by just saying I don't have to pay taxes on my winning until April 15th. Maybe in Vegas or some say Canada, or you have bodyguards walking out with ya'.

[tcasolo]

It has always burned my a$$, that Ohio does not allow me to claim gambling losses against my winnings, but it only bothers me on the one day each year that I am doing my Ohio tax return.

[rrpic6]

It has always burned my a$$, that Ohio does not allow me to claim gambling losses against my winnings, but it only bothers me on the one day each year that I am doing my Ohio tax return.

The law in Ohio is crazy, outdated and completely unfair. If you bet $100,000 a year and win $105,000, you must pay tax on $105,000 not the profit, which is $5000. 3% of that is over $3000. Which means you must pay over 60% of what you actually won. That is why the "ten percenters" are everywhere in this area.

RR

[Charli125]

The law in Ohio is crazy, outdated and completely unfair. If you bet $100,000 a year and win $105,000, you must pay tax on $105,000 not the profit, which is $5000. 3% of that is over $3000. Which means you must pay over 60% of what you actually won. That is why the "ten percenters" are everywhere in this area.

RR

It's the same way with Federal Taxes as far as I understand it. The only difference is that you can itemize your losses to show that you only made 5k. The one HUGE problem with this setup is that it puts you up into the highest income bracket so you're paying a higher tax on ALL of your income. This is because the 105K you won is added to your income for the year, while the 100K you lost is just an itemized deduction.

At least that's how I understand it.

Oh to be johnnielu and not have to pay taxes!

[rrpic6]

Oh to be johnnielu and not have to pay taxes!

Amen Brother! Since I bet from my home (mostly), can I get a Minister's Degree, then say my house is a church, therefore tax exempt?

RR

[andymays]

You cannot write off more losses than your winnings but you can write off losses equal to your winnings as long as you have proof and have kept records.

[rrpic6]

You cannot write off more losses than your winnings but you can write off losses equal to your winnings as long as you have proof and have kept records.

Again, that is Federal Tax. State Tax is different. You can only write off losses equal to winnings if you are a professional. At least in Ohio.

RR

[andymays]

Again, that is Federal Tax. State Tax is different. You can only write off losses equal to winnings if you are a professional. At least in Ohio.

RR


Someone should challenge the State on that.

It's B.S. that wouldn't hold up if challenged in court in my opinion.

[rrpic6]

Someone should challenge the State on that.

It's B.S. that wouldn't hold up if challenged in court in my opinion.

I've talked to quite a few lawyers and Politicians about this subject. They all agree its a bogus law, but since it only affects myself and a handful of others in Ohio, its not worth their effort.

RR

[andymays]

I've talked to quite a few lawyers and Politicians about this subject. They all agree its a bogus law, but since it only affects myself and a handful of others in Ohio, its not worth their effort.

RR


Doing what's right should be worth their effort because it's an injustice but this is the world we live in. :mad:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Is that a trick question of some kind? I can't see any reason that I would recieve any money for a bet that someone else signed for and had money withheld. Are you asking if I have someone else cash the ticket? Why would I do that if I am the person that is not subject to withholding?

jdl
I'm asking how tickets in total have you cashed that were considered signers or subject to withholding.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I do believe that many have gone to prison for evading income taxes. Al Capone for sure.

Is Jonnielu telling us that he and everyone who sat in prison or is sitting in prison right now for tax evasion just had bad lawyers?

[jonnielu]

Someone should challenge the State on that.

It's B.S. that wouldn't hold up if challenged in court in my opinion.

The state can do whatever it wants to here, it is not taxing state citizens, it is taxing those federal citizens that live in the state.

Look up Ohio's income tax law and see for yourself, it will say that your Ohio taxable income is the same as your federal taxable income.

Meaning that only a federally taxable person can be liable for the Ohio income tax.

You determine who and what you are, that is why you write the little number in the little box labled Taxable Income and then sign/certify/authorize it. You are taxed by your own determination and authority.

jdl

[Irish Boy]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jonnielu]

Doing what's right should be worth their effort because it's an injustice but this is the world we live in. :mad:

If the people of Ohio aren't interested in doing what's right, why should the politicians be? The people of Ohio seem to be perfectly content to send 30% of their income to a foreign jurisdiction, so that jurisdiction can use that money to dictate to its legislature.

Seems to me that if the people of Ohio were interested in enjoying their right to self-government, they would excercise it. How long will the people of all the states pay the federal jurisdiction to buy their legislatures?

Read Andrew Jackson's farewell speech, it is just a google search away. He told you exactly how this deal will work.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I do believe that many have gone to prison for evading income taxes. Al Capone for sure.

Is Jonnielu telling us that he and everyone who sat in prison or is sitting in prison right now for tax evasion just had bad lawyers?

You are absolutely correct that people sit in prison for tax evasion. Most are completely confused on the subject of jurisdiction, and the nature of their citizenship. It is hard to hold it against them, because most people have no understanding of these vital concepts.

Al Capone, imported and distributed liquor. An item that carries a federal excise tax. Although often cited to this day for the value of inspiring you to simply fear and complie, his income tax evasion was derived from his activities involving liquor.

Dred Scott, I think he had a bad lawyer, I believe that if he had simply stood on the Declaration, instead of the state of Missouri, he would have had a shot.

jdl

[bisket]

one thing i learned today: don't take tax advice from johnnylou :lol:

[Irish Boy]

Yeah. This is batshit loony stuff.

[ddog]

The federal income tax buys both of us nothing. If you think it does, give an example.

jdl


not worth the time.

You are a smart guy, you figure it out.

:D

[ezrabrooks]

Don't you buy a parimutal ticket under certain rules...one of which is the tax withholding?

Ez

[Irish Boy]

Don't you buy a parimutal ticket under certain rules...one of which is the tax withholding?

Ez

I think I know pretty much how this works:

Ticket gets cashed. Amount is over the requirement for withholding. He goes to cash it, teller says "we'll have to withhold X% for tax purposes" or "sign this form for federal withholding". He refuses and demands a manager be summoned. One is. He babbles some pseudo-legalistic jargon (emphasis on pseudo) until, eventually, the manager says screw it, he has to pay the tax, not us anyway. He gets the full amount, never reports the earnings because he never files or pays federal taxes.

This is all well and good, especially if he doesn't have a real job and makes so little money that the government doesn't particularly care to waste resourses prosecuting some low-level tax cheat. But the funniest part about the argument is that the entire thing is couched so that it sounds entirely legal, only the federal government, state governments, judges, juries, lawyers, and everyone involved in the administration of the legal system agrees that no, in fact, you have to pay income tax. We settled the jurisdictional questions a long time ago. There was a war and everything!

I could use less sanctimony about the whole thing, however. Tax cheats love to say about how patriotic it is to not pay up; they disagree with the government on something so they don't pay taxes, or they don't believe in taxes, or taxes are slavery, or whatever. Let's face it: principle is awfully nice when you get to keep an extra couple of Gs in your bank account as well, especially if you're insigificant enough that no one will ever care. So don't give those of us that do, grudingly, pay taxes every year a convoluted civics lesson when you shirk your responsibilities.

[fmolf]

I have worked with counless men traveling electricians and other tradesman who traverse the country ..taking their pay tax exempt.They all cannot own houses.....cars....stocks or bonds.....they basically are paying any bills they have in cash and giving the rest to someone else to hold in an acct not in their name.I would not want to live like that!Most of these nomads sound eerily similar to mr jonnielu!

[raybo]

I'm no tax expert, by any means, but, unless he has no social security card and never has had one, I believe, when he signed the paperwork for it he agreed to pay income tax.

[jonnielu]

I have worked with counless men traveling electricians and other tradesman who traverse the country ..taking their pay tax exempt.They all cannot own houses.....cars....stocks or bonds.....they basically are paying any bills they have in cash and giving the rest to someone else to hold in an acct not in their name.I would not want to live like that!Most of these nomads sound eerily similar to mr jonnielu!

I find your knowledge of these people interesting when coupled with the fact that you are presented with evidence that go against your beliefs, yet you still will not question those beliefs.

If what you believe were true, these guys you referr to would not be able to get their pay without withholding. Yet you know that they do, and they do it by simply checking the "exempt" box in the withholding form. At which point, the signature affixed is certifying that fact.

You believe that this can not be done, and that there is a law forbidding it. How do you support that belief? These people that you cite do not bank in their name, because they can not. They can not open an account in their proper lawful person, with their rights intact.

But, don't take my word for it, take $200 to the bank and see if you can open an account in your name, and write "all rights reserved" next to your signature on the application. They will tell you that they can accept your application as soon as you remove the reservation of your rights.

The exempt box on the withholding form can only be checked by a person that is exempt by law.

If there were no such thing, there would be no box to check.

You are also told that everyone is liable, yet there is a criteria for the Offer in Compromise that is title "doubt as to liability", how could such a thing exist, when you heard tell from a guy that has a buddy, whose cousin, works with a lady whose nephew was once on a street corner with a guy that was actually told by the IRS comissioner "everyone should pay their taxes".

Then, there is those guys, they seem to have the un-mitigated gall to check that exempt box, why doesn't IRS just beat them severely about the head and shoulders and then slap the bracelets right on them? Hell, the IRS knows exactly what law exempts you, but dumb electricians can't find the neutral without a meter.

Better yet, go down to the IRS office and ask them what the exemption is.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I'm no tax expert, by any means, but, unless he has no social security card and never has had one, I believe, when he signed the paperwork for it he agreed to pay income tax.

True, your signature on that application, enables D.C. to assume that you are waiving your natural citizenship and, by your authority, electing for their citizenship, and contracting with their jurisdiction for government. That assumption is legal.

Maxim of law - Fraud nullifies the most solemn of contracts. Look it up, it's right there.

As a result of fraud, I signed an application for a socialist security number in 1967 during an 8th grade history class. The fraud? People from the SSA instructed school teachers (third party authority figures) to instruct us kids to fill out and sign, because "its a law".

Fact, at age 13, I had no legal authority to contract with anyone.

At the age of 21, I aquired that authority, which I used to lawfully cancel that signature on the basis of fraud. The government, which was duly and lawfully noticed, has never challenged me on this.

jdl

[Irish Boy]

Because you're a pissant. They don't care.

Fact: individuals don't contract with the government on the basis of citizenship. The contract theory is incorrect. You didn't renounce your citizenship by unsigning a social security card, just like you didn't become a citizen by signing one.

Fact: one cannot- I repeat, cannot- be a citizen of a state without also being a citizen of the federal government. States are, to a limited degree, sovereign entities, but their sovereign powers do not include granting citizenship independent of federal citizenship. This isn't a controversial proposition.

Fact: your legal obligation to pay federal income taxes does not accrue from the time you sign your social security card. That's not how it works.

Conclusion: you're so far off base legally that it's swung all the way past "not funny" back to comical again. You obviously have no legal knowledge whatsoever and have cobbled toegether some vaguely plausible sounding theories that don't hold up to the slightest bit of legal scrutiny. Isn't it nice when "principle" and self-interest are aligned so neatly?

[ddog]

Because you're a pissant. They don't care.

Fact: individuals don't contract with the government on the basis of citizenship. The contract theory is incorrect. You didn't renounce your citizenship by unsigning a social security card, just like you didn't become a citizen by signing one.

Fact: one cannot- I repeat, cannot- be a citizen of a state without also being a citizen of the federal government. States are, to a limited degree, sovereign entities, but their sovereign powers do not include granting citizenship independent of federal citizenship. This isn't a controversial proposition.

Fact: your legal obligation to pay federal income taxes does not accrue from the time you sign your social security card. That's not how it works.

Conclusion: you're so far off base legally that it's swung all the way past "not funny" back to comical again. You obviously have no legal knowledge whatsoever and have cobbled toegether some vaguely plausible sounding theories that don't hold up to the slightest bit of legal scrutiny. Isn't it nice when "principle" and self-interest are aligned so neatly?


Uh, I think that about nails it.

Even the IRS has an ROI basis and he is just not worth the trouble.

[badcompany]

You can only write off your losings to the extent of your winnings and not more.

You might not even be able to do that. Why? Because to write off loses you are required to itemize, and, there's a possibility that you might find yourself owing more tax even after you write off the loss. That's because the standard deduction works out much better for most.


As an aside, here's a recent picture of jonnielu:

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates/2007/07/large_hat2.jpg

[andymays]

You might not even be able to do that. Why? Because to write off loses you are required to itemize, and, there's a possibility that you might find yourself owing more tax even after you write off the loss. That's because the standard deduction works out much better for most.


As an aside, here's a recent picture of jonnielu:

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates/2007/07/large_hat2.jpg

You do have to itemize!


As far as the other information goes :D

[jonnielu]

Because you're a pissant. They don't care.


Whatever you will believe is fine with the recipients of your funds.


Fact: individuals don't contract with the government on the basis of citizenship. The contract theory is incorrect. You didn't renounce your citizenship by unsigning a social security card, just like you didn't become a citizen by signing one.


I didn't say I renounced anything, or became anything by rendering my signature on an SS application meaningless.


Fact: one cannot- I repeat, cannot- be a citizen of a state without also being a citizen of the federal government. States are, to a limited degree, sovereign entities, but their sovereign powers do not include granting citizenship independent of federal citizenship. This isn't a controversial proposition.


Don't be bashful, flesh that out some more. I'd like to hear how one cannot be a citizen of a state, and how federal citizenship is the only kind. I never said that a state grants my status either.


Fact: your legal obligation to pay federal income taxes does not accrue from the time you sign your social security card. That's not how it works.


Tell me how it works, maybe you know where that law is written down.


Conclusion: you're so far off base legally that it's swung all the way past "not funny" back to comical again. You obviously have no legal knowledge whatsoever and have cobbled toegether some vaguely plausible sounding theories that don't hold up to the slightest bit of legal scrutiny. Isn't it nice when "principle" and self-interest are aligned so neatly?


Well, it should be a simple matter to prosecute me then. I guess maybe only the people that know what they are doing get prosecuted. Sure, that makes a lot of sense.

jdl

[ryesteve]

Well, it should be a simple matter to prosecute me then.Instead of all this talk, why not just fill out one of these forms and post it so that anyone who's interested can contact the IRS and test your theories...
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf

[jonnielu]

Instead of all this talk, why not just fill out one of these forms and post it so that anyone who's interested can contact the IRS and test your theories...
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf

The testing has been done for 13 years.

jdl

[ryesteve]

The testing has been done for 13 years.Not by your skeptics...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The testing has been done for 13 years.

jdl
Seriously, there are a bunch of people in jail for tax evasion. If you are right that would not be the case by a long shot.

[jonnielu]

Not by your skeptics...

Apparently the skeptics enjoy living the Les Nesman life, where the walls are painted on the floor, but they never need to stick their chin out to find the truth.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Seriously, there are a bunch of people in jail for tax evasion. If you are right that would not be the case by a long shot.

How many is a bunch? There is probably 100 million adults in this country that are totally confused as to the nature of their citizenship, if 1000 of them are in jail because of it, that is a small group.

Have you ever spent 2 minutes wondering why Congress uses fear to convince people, instead of facts? Have you ever heard anything from them about the 10% of prosecutions that they lose? Has an official of government ever told you that YOU must pay a tax on income, and put it in writing with their signature on it?

jdl

[Irish Boy]

http://meltyourfaceoff.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[jonnielu]

That's a fine testament to your ignorance. Is that your best?

jdl

[Tape Reader]

I had another signer at Saratoga yesterday. A triple for $2,906.00. I was going to tell the clerk that "jonnielu" said that they had no right to take out taxes, but it wasn't necessary. I found out that they only take out on over $5,000. I had my picture taken and went for a beer.

For you tote board readers, here is the tape: ML 12-1. 10 MTP 8-1. 1 MTP 12-1. 0 MTP 9-1. Another tote board watcher informed me that two stable hands with racing tack around their neck caused the last drop in odds. Horse circled the field and won easily.