Can someone please explain....

[ryanxpress]

Excellent Meeting,Silverbulletday,Paseana,Educated Risk,Sky Beauty,Cadillacing,Storm Flag Flaging,Sardula,April Run,Pebbles,Riboletta,Bayakoa,Goodbye Halo,The list goes on.....HOW COME WE DONT SEE ANY OF THERE FOALS RUN,,,Winning Colors....was it the medication that they were on.

[ryanxpress]

Can anyone in this forum whos in the breeding industry explain why theses fillies and mares dont produce...?I have always wonder whatever happens to them Remember LAdys Secret..Safely Kept Meafara Pine Tree lane Princess Rooney...Anyone with any insight i would appreciate it,,

[46zilzal]

I kept in contact with grooms at Claiborne and they described Winning Colors behavior as "studdish" and she could not get in foal for an entire year after coming off the track. If she wasn't full of androgenic steroids that transition would have been a tad easier was the consensus explanation, and it has to have an effect on the offspring.

On a side note, we had the filly Riboletto run in the 4th Md claimer last night (Unbridled's Song- Riboletta by Roi Normand) and finished NO WHERE. Originally a MILLION DOLLAR purchase by Darley Stud this one ran for $12,500 and finished UP THE TRACK with NO takers.

Like I have always stated, it is the INDIVIDUAL not some theoretical breeding that does the running.

[ryanxpress]

Thanks but what happens to these horses i mentioned a few,,any input on any others

[slewis]

The man who I have the most respect for in the breeding industry has made the point to me time after time that quite often it is the more feminine types that have pedigree but often lacked ability that produce the best racehorses.

I dont think you could change or alter ones genetic code by the meds you are racing them on, although there are steroids that could render a mare infertile.

But EVERYONE should understand one basic principle about breeding thoroughbreds.

Breeding the best to the best rarely if ever yields results you are trying to achieve......

If you dont believe me.... ask Phipps.:lol:

[turfnsport]

Excellent Meeting,Silverbulletday,Paseana,Educated Risk,Sky Beauty,Cadillacing,Storm Flag Flaging,Sardula,April Run,Pebbles,Riboletta,Bayakoa,Goodbye Halo,The list goes on.....HOW COME WE DONT SEE ANY OF THERE FOALS RUN,,,Winning Colors....was it the medication that they were on.

Educated Risk produced a couple of decent runners in Consequence and Strategy. But you are right, I don't recall most of those you mentioned producing much.

[46zilzal]

Educated Risk produced a couple of decent runners in Consequence and Strategy. But you are right, I don't recall most of those you mentioned producing much.
EXCEPTION was Miesque

After Kingmambo, Miesque continued to produce quality foals; she is also the dam of G1 Champion 3-year-old Miler and stakes producer East of the Moon (dam of G3 Moon Driver), G3 Stakes winner and sire Miesque’s Son.

[Hanover1]

Other post is correct-they either run or produce, seldom both. Reasons include use of steroids, but actually its just simply either-or. I have seen, however, that the mare influence can be seen 2-3 generations out, with traits that can be directly related, such as gait, attitued and style.

[illinoisbred]

I often thought the barreness of some of these mares could be caused use of steroids or perhaps biologically speaking, they were more male than female.If my memory is correct,Bayakoa and Winning Colors were quite large for their sex.

[Hanover1]

I often thought the barreness of some of these mares could be caused use of steroids or perhaps biologically speaking, they were more male than female.If my memory is correct,Bayakoa and Winning Colors were quite large for their sex.
Eight Belles was masculine as was Rags to Riches. I worked with a tough pacer named Hazel Hanover, who by all accounts was rank, mean, and tough as nails on the track (over 300k purses) and she produced 2 400k winners out of many foals, and they were colts, not fillies. The theory of predisposition holds some water. Its either-or. Seldom both.

[Java Gold@TFT]

But EVERYONE should understand one basic principle about breeding thoroughbreds.

Breeding the best to the best rarely if ever yields results you are trying to achieve......

If you dont believe me.... ask Phipps.:lol:
I'm sure that Mr. Phipps was very dissapointedd that Personal Ensign had graded stakes winners like Miner's Mark, My Flag, Our Emblem, and Traditionally. And then he was upset when My Flag produced the grade - I Champion Storm Flag Flying. I know he hated it when his precious Heavenly Prize produced Good Reward and Pure Prize. I'm pretty sure he also owned Grecian Banner who foaled both Personal Ensign and Personal Flag. I think his record of breeding the best to the best speaks for itself.

Then other vey high quality winners (not in the Phipps family) like Weekend Surprise foaled A.P. Indy and Summer Squall. The ultimately speedy stakes winner Terlingua only produced Storm Cat. The list goes on and on. No, all of the best don't pass down their genes and they don't do it every year but none of them do. There will be 35,000 foals born this year. There are about 400 graded stakes races and 10 or 12 Eclipse awards. Odds on anything therefore are about 3,500 - 1 to produce a champion in any given year. The dams only get one shot per year. The stallions have better odds.

BTW, Winning Colors did produce two winners who ran in Japan. One won $500K and the other $250K.

[bisket]

statistically unraced and lightly raced mares have the best progeny for the track. other posters have stated many of the reasons for this. i always thought war emblem and winnning colors would have made a good pair. winning colors could have been the guy, and war emblem the girl ;)

[ryesteve]

statistically unraced and lightly raced mares have the best progeny for the track. Can you go ahead and post those stats?

[bisket]

i don't go through all that myself. i had someone show this to me. i was very skeptical of this myself at one time, and was proven wrong on the subject. thats how i know this to be true.

[ryesteve]

i don't go through all that myself. i had someone show this to me.Hopefully it wasn't on a message board... :D

[macguy]

On a side note, we had the filly Riboletto run in the 4th Md claimer last night (Unbridled's Song- Riboletta by Roi Normand) and finished NO WHERE. Originally a MILLION DOLLAR purchase by Darley Stud this one ran for $12,500 and finished UP THE TRACK with NO takers.


Actually Riboletto is a Colt, not a filly, and the horse was claimed for $12,500 by John Morrison & his family last night. You are right on the one account though, the horse ran 4th of 6th beaten a little over 7 lengths, bringing home a paycheck for a little over $500. Certainly not where the connections thought he'd end up with that kind of breeding.

[bisket]

steve going forward. look at every graded runner's mom and see how many are actually out of a mare that won anything.

[ryanxpress]

Good Stuff

[ryanxpress]

Eight Belles was masculine as was Rags to Riches. I worked with a tough pacer named Hazel Hanover, who by all accounts was rank, mean, and tough as nails on the track (over 300k purses) and she produced 2 400k winners out of many foals, and they were colts, not fillies. The theory of predisposition holds some water. Its either-or. Seldom both.
Hanover ..the best harness horse you ever saw....Niatross,Nihilator,Cam Fella,Somebeachsomewhere,On the Road again?NIatroos IMO was the best ever Somebeachsomewhere was close

[KirisClown]

Sardula was euthanized before she produced any foals..

[alhattab]

EXCEPTION was Miesque

After Kingmambo, Miesque continued to produce quality foals; she is also the dam of G1 Champion 3-year-old Miler and stakes producer East of the Moon (dam of G3 Moon Driver), G3 Stakes winner and sire Miesque’s Son.

Interesting that your example was Euro-trained

[FenceBored]

Can anyone in this forum whos in the breeding industry explain why theses fillies and mares dont produce...?I have always wonder whatever happens to them Remember LAdys Secret..Safely Kept Meafara Pine Tree lane Princess Rooney...Anyone with any insight i would appreciate it,,

If you look at Pedigree Query (pedigreequery.com (http://www.pedigreequery.com)) you can do FREE progeny searches. They aren't exhaustive, but can be helpful.


Princess Rooney produced 6 winners from 8 foals.
Lady's Secret produced at least 12 foals, at least 10 of which raced.
Goodbye Halo had a number of JPN bred foals.
Sky Beauty had at least 7 foals, 6 to race.
Educated Risk had at least 9 foals, 8 to race.
Excellent Meeting died after producing what looks like her 2nd foal. The first is now a stud in Midway Ky, the second is a broodmare with her first foal in the Keeneland September sale.
Cadillacing had at least 8 foals, 5 winners.
Safely Kept at least 9 foals, 7 winners.

I enjoyed watching Ocean Colors (daughter of Winning Colors) race last year at Churchill Downs. On August 1st she finished 2nd in the Mongo Queen Stakes at Monmouth Park.

So really, what are you talking about? If you've missed ALL of the progeny of these girls racing (including the stakes winning offspring), you just must not have been paying attention. :)

[joanied]

If you look at Pedigree Query (pedigreequery.com (http://www.pedigreequery.com/)) you can do FREE progeny searches. They aren't exhaustive, but can be helpful.


Princess Rooney produced 6 winners from 8 foals.
Lady's Secret produced at least 12 foals, at least 10 of which raced.
Goodbye Halo had a number of JPN bred foals.
Sky Beauty had at least 7 foals, 6 to race.
Educated Risk had at least 9 foals, 8 to race.
Excellent Meeting died after producing what looks like her 2nd foal. The first is now a stud in Midway Ky, the second is a broodmare with her first foal in the Keeneland September sale.
Cadillacing had at least 8 foals, 5 winners.
Safely Kept at least 9 foals, 7 winners.

I enjoyed watching Ocean Colors (daughter of Winning Colors) race last year at Churchill Downs. On August 1st she finished 2nd in the Mongo Queen Stakes at Monmouth Park.

So really, what are you talking about? If you've missed ALL of the progeny of these girls racing (including the stakes winning offspring), you just must not have been paying attention. :)

Excellent post...with stats even...wow:ThmbUp:

Man...this is a great thread...wish I had more:( time to jump in...as soon as I to have time...I'll be back:)

[46zilzal]

Interesting that your example was Euro-trained
and was UNDEFEATED in the US

[tucker6]

Excellent post...with stats even...wow:ThmbUp:

Man...this is a great thread...wish I had more:( time to jump in...as soon as I to have time...I'll be back:)
Ranchers in WY are lazy folk. :) :kiss:

[ryanxpress]

If you look at Pedigree Query (pedigreequery.com (http://www.pedigreequery.com)) you can do FREE progeny searches. They aren't exhaustive, but can be helpful.


Princess Rooney produced 6 winners from 8 foals.
Lady's Secret produced at least 12 foals, at least 10 of which raced.
Goodbye Halo had a number of JPN bred foals.
Sky Beauty had at least 7 foals, 6 to race.
Educated Risk had at least 9 foals, 8 to race.
Excellent Meeting died after producing what looks like her 2nd foal. The first is now a stud in Midway Ky, the second is a broodmare with her first foal in the Keeneland September sale.
Cadillacing had at least 8 foals, 5 winners.
Safely Kept at least 9 foals, 7 winners.

I enjoyed watching Ocean Colors (daughter of Winning Colors) race last year at Churchill Downs. On August 1st she finished 2nd in the Mongo Queen Stakes at Monmouth Park.

So really, what are you talking about? If you've missed ALL of the progeny of these girls racing (including the stakes winning offspring), you just must not have been paying attention. :) Thanks that was indeed a great post..anything on Bayakoa or paseana or Dance smartly

[joanied]

Ranchers in WY are lazy folk. :) :kiss:

How'd you know that...we just had a little rain shower so had to quit the combine :mad: ...ya can't 'thrash' the malt barley if it rains just a tinybit...moisture levels can't be too high or Budweiser rejects your load...so, now I'll go feed the bulls (4)...clean under and around the horse's run in shed in the corral, feed the horses, stack some more hay for them near the corral, get dinner started, feed the dogs and barn cat, clean the kitchen...want more?
yeah man...lazy to a fault:lol:
PS...yes, I know you jest, tucker6:ThmbUp:

[tucker6]

How'd you know that...we just had a little rain shower so had to quit the combine :mad: ...ya can't 'thrash' the malt barley if it rains just a tinybit...moisture levels can't be too high or Budweiser rejects your load...so, now I'll go feed the bulls (4)...clean under and around the horse's run in shed in the corral, feed the horses, stack some more hay for them near the corral, get dinner started, feed the dogs and barn cat, clean the kitchen...want more?
yeah man...lazy to a fault:lol:
PS...yes, I know you jest, tucker6:ThmbUp:
I come from a farm family tree, so I know who the hardest workers of all are. I'm up and at 'em every morning at 4am, so I got the gene too. Despite everything you just wrote, you still have a much better life than city folk Joanie. Be happy that you can see the vistas as you wipe your brow. I wish I could! You are to be envied.

... and yes, of course it was in jest. :p

Tom

[ryanxpress]

was Paradise Creek a Mack Miller horse?

[illinoisbred]

was Paradise Creek a Mack Miller horse?
I believe Bill Mott trained PC

[joanied]

I come from a farm family tree, so I know who the hardest workers of all are. I'm up and at 'em every morning at 4am, so I got the gene too. Despite everything you just wrote, you still have a much better life than city folk Joanie. Be happy that you can see the vistas as you wipe your brow. I wish I could! You are to be envied.

... and yes, of course it was in jest. :p

Tom

Oh yes, the vista's are wonderful here, Tom...we can see several mountain ranges from all the fields...as we wipe our brows and fight off the mosquitoes & deer flies :D ... it's a good thing my body's time clock got a good workout from working at Belmont...being at the barn by 5am every morning all those years :faint: ...I know what it's like to work in the city too...I worked in Manhattan before I got to Belmont...and despite having a really cool job (window display)...it sucked!!

Tom, I wouldn't trade places with anyone...well, almost anyone :D

[ryanxpress]

Oh yes, the vista's are wonderful here, Tom...we can see several mountain ranges from all the fields...as we wipe our brows and fight off the mosquitoes & deer flies :D ... it's a good thing my body's time clock got a good workout from working at Belmont...being at the barn by 5am every morning all those years :faint: ...I know what it's like to work in the city too...I worked in Manhattan before I got to Belmont...and despite having a really cool job (window display)...it sucked!!

Tom, I wouldn't trade places with anyone...well, almost anyone :D
Have you ever heard of the great sprinter JOANIETIMESMACHINE?

[statik27]

Didn't Tesio have a theory about great race mares losing some of their vigor that would have passed on to foals otherwise? Sounds a bit like voodoo, but the man could breed a horse.

[Brogan]

Ummmm...I hope this isn't too obvious to even mention, BUT

A top stallion can literally throw over a hundred foals per season, but a mare maxes out at ONE (and please don't tell me about twins).

Only takes a few classic runners for a stud's name to be mentioned a lot wherease the opportunities for the mare are quite limited.

[PaceAdvantage]

I kept in contact with grooms at Claiborne and they described Winning Colors behavior as "studdish" and she could not get in foal for an entire year after coming off the track. If she wasn't full of androgenic steroids that transition would have been a tad easier was the consensus explanation, and it has to have an effect on the offspring.

On a side note, we had the filly Riboletto run in the 4th Md claimer last night (Unbridled's Song- Riboletta by Roi Normand) and finished NO WHERE. Originally a MILLION DOLLAR purchase by Darley Stud this one ran for $12,500 and finished UP THE TRACK with NO takers.

Like I have always stated, it is the INDIVIDUAL not some theoretical breeding that does the running.You write as if racing while on "androgenic steroids" was somehow illegal during the time of Winning Colors.

It was perfectly legal.

Whether or not it was TRUE is a completely different story. You have absolutely no proof other than anecdotal evidence from some nameless, faceless "grooms at Claiborne" who probably aren't very reliable to begin with given the subject matter.

[sarcastic answer]

I'm sure that Mr. Phipps was very dissapointedd that Personal Ensign had graded stakes winners like Miner's Mark, My Flag, Our Emblem, and Traditionally. And then he was upset when My Flag produced the grade - I Champion Storm Flag Flying. I know he hated it when his precious Heavenly Prize produced Good Reward and Pure Prize. I'm pretty sure he also owned Grecian Banner who foaled both Personal Ensign and Personal Flag. I think his record of breeding the best to the best speaks for itself.

Then other vey high quality winners (not in the Phipps family) like Weekend Surprise foaled A.P. Indy and Summer Squall. The ultimately speedy stakes winner Terlingua only produced Storm Cat. The list goes on and on. No, all of the best don't pass down their genes and they don't do it every year but none of them do. There will be 35,000 foals born this year. There are about 400 graded stakes races and 10 or 12 Eclipse awards. Odds on anything therefore are about 3,500 - 1 to produce a champion in any given year. The dams only get one shot per year. The stallions have better odds.

BTW, Winning Colors did produce two winners who ran in Japan. One won $500K and the other $250K.

Slewis has a big problem with Phipps , maybe he is not impressed with all these champions they have bred or the percieved power they have over nyra. Whatever it is , he targets them whenever he can seems childish to me especially after your post showing how wrong he is!!!

[FenceBored]

Ocean Colors, a gray daughter of Winning Colors, is entered in the Miss Woodford Stakes at Monmouth (race 9) on Saturday, August 29th. Haven't looked at the pps so I don't know how competitive she'll be.

[slewis]

Slewis has a big problem with Phipps , maybe he is not impressed with all these champions they have bred or the percieved power they have over nyra. Whatever it is , he targets them whenever he can seems childish to me especially after your post showing how wrong he is!!!


Slewis is far from wrong on the Phipps issue.

They are THE BIGGEST underachievers IN ANY SPORT.

Not even Steinbrenner dumps the kind of money into the Yankees this guy spends in the TB business.

Im not going to waste my time documenting it.

I have a close friend of mine who advised on the purchase of a mare from the Phipps's sometime ago for peanuts. She was a multiple graded stakes producer.
After that, Phipps thought better NOT to sell horses privately.

Guess what?? Ever see them drop a horse into a claimer anymore??
Do you know why??? They KNOW they stand a big chance of being embarrassed. (Ask Gasper Moschera)

They dont want that...... Problem for him and his trainer is that EVERYONE at the racetrack knows how weak their operation is.
They are laughed at, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.

With Storm Cat at $500k live foal... AP INDY upwards of $300k... and so on and so on.... if you throw enough shit on the wall... and dump HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS into the game... with no worries of grandaddies money running out.. you are bound to get the results posted.

Now if you, the genius that posted above, or anyone else is impressed with those results, congradulations, you qualify as a fool as well.

Regarding my "perception" of Phipps's power at NYRA or in the industry, you're comments suggest this not to be true.

We can all have a good laugh at that one.

[sarcastic answer]

Slewis is far from wrong on the Phipps issue.

They are THE BIGGEST underachievers IN ANY SPORT.

Not even Steinbrenner dumps the kind of money into the Yankees this guy spends in the TB business.

Im not going to waste my time documenting it.

I have a close friend of mine who advised on the purchase of a mare from the Phipps's sometime ago for peanuts. She was a multiple graded stakes producer.
After that, Phipps thought better NOT to sell horses privately.

Guess what?? Ever see them drop a horse into a claimer anymore??
Do you know why??? They KNOW they stand a big chance of being embarrassed. (Ask Gasper Moschera)

They dont want that...... Problem for him and his trainer is that EVERYONE at the racetrack knows how weak their operation is.
They are laughed at, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.

With Storm Cat at $500k live foal... AP INDY upwards of $300k... and so on and so on.... if you throw enough shit on the wall... and dump HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS into the game... with no worries of grandaddies money running out.. you are bound to get the results posted.

Now if you, the genius that posted above, or anyone else is impressed with those results, congradulations, you qualify as a fool as well.

Regarding my "perception" of Phipps's power at NYRA or in the industry, you're comments suggest this not to be true.

We can all have a good laugh at that one.

Slewis your jealousy is truly unbecoming.. Thanks for justifying my comments, and the genius billing,well there is only room for one genius on this board!!!!!!!!

[slewis]

Slewis your jealousy is truly unbecoming.. Thanks for justifying my comments, and the genius billing,well there is only room for one genius on this board!!!!!!!!


Yes I am jealous,

I wish I had a few billion dollars so my son could piss away a few hundred million in is quest to rule the Thoroughbred (or any other) world!:lol: :lol:

Im sure grandaddy is proud of his grandson!!:lol: :lol:

[sarcastic answer]

Yes I am jealous,

I wish I had a few billion dollars so my son could piss away a few hundred million in is quest to rule the Thoroughbred (or any other) world!:lol: :lol:

Im sure grandaddy is proud of his grandson!!:lol: :lol:


Thats what you do when you have all the money, you seek all the power. Insulting his son is just dumb.
The unwritten rule in horseracing is 90 percent of horse owners lose money, if this is true most owners are in fact pissing there money away as well!!!

[Grits]

Slewis, I don't know how long Sarcastic Answer has been lurking, having just begun to post, but if (she or he) goes back any length of time whatsoever, they'll see barely a thing you've EVER posted about the Phipps's has had a single thing to do with that stellar band of broodmares they keep down in Kentucky!

Yep, ya jus' jealous, Slewis.:lol: ..............What a hoot.

[sarcastic answer]

Slewis, I don't know how long Sarcastic Answer has been lurking, having just begun to post, but if (she or he) goes back any length of time whatsoever, they'll see barely a thing you've EVER posted about the Phipps's has had a single thing to do with that stellar band of broodmares they keep down in Kentucky!

Yep, ya jus' jealous, Slewis.:lol: ..............What a hoot.

I am sure Slewis does not need you to defend him, but when you feel compelled to make sure you read all of his past posts( I was never just referring to his broodmares) on the phipps family. What difference does it make how long I have been on here? Is that how you make judgements? by the amount of posts? Pretty Clever!

[Grits]

I am sure Slewis does not need you to defend him, but when you feel compelled to make sure you read all of his past posts( I was never just referring to his broodmares) on the phipps family. What difference does it make how long I have been on here? Is that how you make judgements? by the amount of posts? Pretty Clever!

My desire to defend Slewis ranks, side by side, with my desire for contracting a social disease. The guy needs no one to defend him. One doesn't have to go back and read his posts, when having done so for a long while. What I did do, however, before replying, was read your own, which, with the exception of the first, have consisted, mainly, of one line sarcastic answers, as your online moniker implies. (This isn't judging, its reading the obvious, so no this isn't pretty clever.)

You and Slewis, hopefully, can continue the exchange. He's probably putting money through the windows, somewhere, on Saratoga's grounds now.

You're both own horses, you have a good deal in common.

[nijinski]

Seems when a farm needs funds , Mares seem to get dispersed first. Many bought up and sent to Europe some to Australia or SAF.

You can search a lifetime and you will never find out how "Davona Dale" fell
through the cracks.She wasn't producing enough winners so she sort of vanished. Coolmore Ireland has no idea when , where and how her life ended .
Probably many lie her.Pretty sad.

The one person I have alot of respect for is "Dolphus Morrison". Although he sold Rachel Alexandra he seems to take good care of her Dam "Lotta Kim" and she's one special broodmare who many don't now of .I believe RA was her only live foal to date.

[bisket]

You write as if racing while on "androgenic steroids" was somehow illegal during the time of Winning Colors.

It was perfectly legal.

Whether or not it was TRUE is a completely different story. You have absolutely no proof other than anecdotal evidence from some nameless, faceless "grooms at Claiborne" who probably aren't very reliable to begin with given the subject matter.
this is not the first place i've heard this about winning colors. i think her behavior MAY ;) have something to do with the way she was trained. that particular trainer was known for his mares to have this behavior.

[thespaah]

Eight Belles was masculine as was Rags to Riches. I worked with a tough pacer named Hazel Hanover, who by all accounts was rank, mean, and tough as nails on the track (over 300k purses) and she produced 2 400k winners out of many foals, and they were colts, not fillies. The theory of predisposition holds some water. Its either-or. Seldom both.
I took care of a turn out named April's Skipper at a training farm in NJ. She was a great pacing mare in the late 70's early 80's. Mean as sh!t but she was ok with me.
Don't know about her progeny.
The "maleness" of these top notch fillies and mares sounds logical enough.
Perhaps a vet will chime in here or other informed source.