PDA

View Full Version : YR Trot-no muscle??


Hanover1
08-20-2009, 09:01 PM
Do we need to assign TC to another race?? Having the pace TC on 1 of each size track makes sense...why not on the trot?? I vote Dexter-Hambo-World Trotting Derby if we cannot agree...

camfella
08-20-2009, 09:25 PM
Do we need to assign TC to another race?? Having the pace TC on 1 of each size track makes sense...why not on the trot?? I vote Dexter-Hambo-World Trotting Derby if we cannot agree...
Looks to me that MH is ducking the competition,not a true champion if he wont race on 1/2:lol: probably afraid of a certain 3rd place finisher:bang:

wilderness
08-20-2009, 09:27 PM
MH going to the American-Nationals at Balmoral and on to DuQuoin.

camfella
08-20-2009, 09:36 PM
MH going to the American-Nationals at Balmoral and on to DuQuoin.
I heard World Trotting Derby,should show some good race times(I know it doesnt matter)Springfield used to launch jets in off season....hey thats one thing where speed matters...Jet takeoffs,knew there was one-CF

wilderness
08-20-2009, 10:00 PM
I heard World Trotting Derby,should show some good race times(I know it doesnt matter)Springfield used to launch jets in off season....hey thats one thing where speed matters...Jet takeoffs,knew there was one-CF

A sub-1:50 would matter?

You should see some of the early photo's of the place ;)
It was a one-time quarry with lakes and all.
In the beginning the place looked like a desert.

titans1127
08-20-2009, 10:38 PM
The trotting triple crown to me seems to really prove if your horse is really the best. Racing on a mile track (Hambo), Half mile track (yonkers trot), and heat racing (Kentucky Futurity), it seems like your challenged with a little bit of everything. I think the trainers of of the big horses are a bit scared of the half mile track. Even the pacing triple crown is all half mile racing and trainers seem to pick and choose which races of the 3 they enter into. Somebeachsomewhere really showed how good he was with his monster effort in the Messenger at Yonkers in the slop.

Pacingguy
08-20-2009, 10:58 PM
Do we need to assign TC to another race?? Having the pace TC on 1 of each size track makes sense...why not on the trot?? I vote Dexter-Hambo-World Trotting Derby if we cannot agree...

The Dexter is too early in the season. I would make it the Yonkers Trot, Hambo and The Colonial; this way you race on each size track.

What I would do to is change the rules so in order to be eligible for a year end award you must start at least one parimutuel start during the season on a half mile, five-eighths and mile track. Doesn't need to be a triple crown race, it could be an overnight race. A champion should be able to race on all size tracks.

Muscle Hill may be avoiding the half mile track but to their credit, they are racing in the American-National at Balmoral. When was the last time you had a Hambo winner race at Balmoral so they should get credit for racing there.

wilderness
08-20-2009, 11:22 PM
Lexington would need to be hit by a bomb before the Kentucky Futurity gave up their claim to the trotting triple crown. It existed even prior to the other two legs (Hambletonain 1926; Younkers Trot 1955).

The KY Fut., goes back to 1893, which Oro Wilkes won.

Horsemen (mostly owners and breeders) have been collective bailing out and supporting the track since the beginning of time. The support will continue as too much tradition exists there.

botster
08-21-2009, 11:01 AM
The trotting triple crown to me seems to really prove if your horse is really the best. Racing on a mile track (Hambo), Half mile track (yonkers trot), and heat racing (Kentucky Futurity), it seems like your challenged with a little bit of everything. I think the trainers of of the big horses are a bit scared of the half mile track. Even the pacing triple crown is all half mile racing and trainers seem to pick and choose which races of the 3 they enter into. Somebeachsomewhere really showed how good he was with his monster effort in the Messenger at Yonkers in the slop.

100% AGREE TITAN...SBSW and his win in the Messenger was remarkable.The main reason for this was his post draw for that race.It was obvious that he wouldn't be cutting the mile, and almost inevitable he would have to rough it.MUSCLE HILL and his connections, don't want anything to do with a bad draw on the half to jeopardize his record and the hype the media has created.

wilderness
08-21-2009, 11:14 AM
MUSCLE HILL and his connections, don't want anything to do with a bad draw on the half to jeopardize his record and the hype the media has created.

botster,
I realize it was not your intention, however considering the following, I ask you to consider why an owner (s) should not manage their horse (s) with the dollars in mind and the possibility of diminishing the value of the horse in the breeding shed?

Most owners have many, many horses that LOSE dollars before they get a good one, that makes what seems like a lot of dollars.

These same owners are burdened and/or choose to provide care for horses long after their racing lives have ceased, with little chance of recovering costs, thereby, most owners end their journey's with the same extensive losses they had in their beginnings.

These folks are the livelihood and the tradition of the Standardbred Industry.

botster
08-21-2009, 12:06 PM
botster,
I realize it was not your intention, however considering the following, I ask you to consider why an owner (s) should not manage their horse (s) with the dollars in mind and the possibility of diminishing the value of the horse in the breeding shed?

Most owners have many, many horses that LOSE dollars before they get a good one, that makes what seems like a lot of dollars.

These same owners are burdened and/or choose to provide care for horses long after their racing lives have ceased, with little chance of recovering costs, thereby, most owners end their journey's with the same extensive losses they had in their beginnings.

These folks are the livelihood and the tradition of the Standardbred Industry.

I would take the same exact road Don, knowing I wasn't able to choose post 1 for the Yonkers Trot over the half...Good move IMO by his connections.

Sea Biscuit
08-21-2009, 12:44 PM
I would take the same exact road Don, knowing I wasn't able to choose post 1 for the Yonkers Trot over the half...Good move IMO by his connections.

Thats pure conjecture and speculation on your part Bots. You don't know that for a fact.

Only the connections of MH will be able to tell you what the real reason was.

Lets stick to facts please.

Sea Biscuit.

Sea Biscuit
08-21-2009, 12:51 PM
http://standardbredcanada.ca/news/8-20-09/peck-muscle-hill-world-trotting-derby.html

Sea Biscuit

wilderness
08-21-2009, 01:10 PM
Thats pure conjecture and speculation on your part Bots. You don't know that for a fact.

Only the connections of MH will be able to tell you what the real reason was.

Lets stick to facts please.

Sea Biscuit.

How's that possible when in the preceding line you said?

"Only the connections of MH will be able to tell you what the real reason was."

LottaKash
08-21-2009, 01:13 PM
Thats pure conjecture and speculation on your part Bots. You don't know that for a fact.

Only the connections of MH will be able to tell you what the real reason was.

Lets stick to facts please.

Sea Biscuit.

I might add that, "Explosive Matter" is missing from that race, as well....

best,

Hanover1
08-21-2009, 03:57 PM
Thats pure conjecture and speculation on your part Bots. You don't know that for a fact.

Only the connections of MH will be able to tell you what the real reason was.

Lets stick to facts please.

Sea Biscuit.
I am just guessing here but we do know that sometimes rangy colts dont get around a half as well as say a smaller colt. Big ones tend to go to the knees, start forging or grabbing quarters, ect...They may feel hes just not as handy as some proven 1/2 winners, and dont want the prospect of a loss. Nice duckin in my book...best ammend would be world mark in Lexington..... Would have liked to have seen him on the old Syracuse oval.......

botster
08-21-2009, 05:15 PM
I might add that, "Explosive Matter" is missing from that race, as well....

best,
HAHAHAHA! You kill me LK.

Still if he wins the Yonkers trot he will be considered a first team three year old trotting colt LK.Then you will have to admit your earlier assessment of him was WRONG as a second team player!!...LOL

OOPS...Oh yeah let's disreguard your negative comments concerning the horse, because the only think that counts is the result, I FORGOT.

He's 8-5 in his elimination Saturday, he's come a pretty long way since that very tired finish in the Hambo Elimination making him just another also ran in his division, hasn't he LK?

You call me a "sore loser"...maybe, but I can tell when one is getting good my friend.

The Bit
08-21-2009, 06:09 PM
Isn't he 8-5 by default against that crew? And remember 8-5 has nothing to do with ability, speed, or class. Just how some Joe thinks the public may be the race.

botster
08-21-2009, 06:13 PM
I am just guessing here but we do know that sometimes rangy colts dont get around a half as well as say a smaller colt. Big ones tend to go to the knees, start forging or grabbing quarters, ect...They may feel hes just not as handy as some proven 1/2 winners, and dont want the prospect of a loss. Nice duckin in my book...best ammend would be world mark in Lexington..... Would have liked to have seen him on the old Syracuse oval.......

You said the magic word here "ducking" and as you have posted it is the right move to protect their investment.You can supplement to the Yonkers Trot.They do not want any part of this race on the half miler.

They are not going to come out and say this in the media,they never do, but it is obvious.

botster
08-21-2009, 06:15 PM
Isn't he 8-5 by default against that crew? And remember 8-5 has nothing to do with ability, speed, or class. Just how some Joe thinks the public may be the race.

Let me ask you a question and please answer it honestly.

Erase his last two races from his past performances.Now does he belong 8-5 in the morning line?

botster
08-21-2009, 06:26 PM
Let me ask you a question and please answer it honestly.

Erase his last two races from his past performances.Now does he belong 8-5 in the morning line?

Watch his race on HAMBO DAY and then tell me why he doesn't belong 8-5 in the morning line Saturday.He's 8-5, because he has become a top three year old in his division.He came uncovered against EXPLOSIVE MATTER and finished second...HE IS ONE OF THE TOP THREE YEAR OLD TROTTERS IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW, SO YES HE BELONGS 8-5.

He was just another three year old before his elimination for the Hambo.That race started an improving cycle that has made him the morning line favorite for the Yonkers trot elimination.

Getting back to my question to you... If you answered honestly you should have answered...NO.

botster
08-21-2009, 06:34 PM
Isn't he 8-5 by default against that crew? And remember 8-5 has nothing to do with ability, speed, or class. Just how some Joe thinks the public may be the race.

I am not rating this horse by his 8-5 morning line.I am rating this horse off of his last two races.His ability and class in which he had proved in these last two make him legit 8-5 for me.

This horse has plenty of speed, but he hasn't been able to flash it.Last week he left, but got "snuffed" by the EXPLOSIVE MATTER enrty, of who drew inside of him.He will get the lead in two steps Saturday, and we shall see how well he does when cutting a mile, UNLIKE his last two parked out efforts.

LottaKash
08-21-2009, 06:39 PM
HAHAHAHA! You kill me LK.


You call me a "sore loser"...maybe, but I can tell when one is getting good my friend.

I never said he "wasn't" going to get better, just not in those 2 races that you thought he would suddenly mature to....You lost, 2-times with him...That is all that matters....Tomorrow's racing is an altogether different thing....

Any good handicapper can readily see that he is advancing... It is just that, you had premature ejaculation in those two races and it got the best of you....

You lost, you cried and you made excuses....Those races are over, and you lost...That should be it...

best,

botster
08-21-2009, 06:50 PM
I never said he "wasn't" going to get better, just not in those 2 races that you thought he would suddenly mature to....You lost, 2-times with him...That is all that matters....Tomorrow's racing is an altogether different thing....

Any good handicapper can readily see that he is advancing... It is just that, you had premature ejaculation in those two races and it got the best of you....

You lost, you cried and you made excuses....Those races are over, and you lost...That should be it...

best,

LK i use to have respect for you,but I can say I no longer do.You refuse to admit you were wrong.

You have come on here in the past and have given these long lectures on handicapping.Then the rare time you actually make a stand and comment on a horse and you are WRONG, you say "ITS ONLY THE OUTCOME THAT MATTERS"..What a hypocrite you are!

Goodbye LK...I am not recognizing you any longer on this forum...Bye Bye!

LottaKash
08-21-2009, 07:32 PM
LK i use to have respect for you,but I can say I no longer do.You refuse to admit you were wrong.

You have come on here in the past and have given these long lectures on handicapping.Then the rare time you actually make a stand and comment on a horse and you are WRONG, you say "ITS ONLY THE OUTCOME THAT MATTERS"..What a hypocrite you are!

Goodbye LK...I am not recognizing you any longer on this forum...Bye Bye!

What, you are taking your ball and going home....?...:( ...I will miss you....:(

Hanover1
08-21-2009, 09:47 PM
What, you are taking your ball and going home....?...:( ...I will miss you....:(
If you guys promise to be good boys, I will send you each a lock of hair off the brush of Niatross........we are so lonely out here in cyberspace :D

Hanover1
08-21-2009, 11:37 PM
You said the magic word here "ducking" and as you have posted it is the right move to protect their investment.You can supplement to the Yonkers Trot.They do not want any part of this race on the half miler.

They are not going to come out and say this in the media,they never do, but it is obvious.
Its the old: "We will let the horse tell us" routine, except the media cant hear anything........ :D

The Bit
08-22-2009, 10:11 AM
My point wasn't that he is first tier, second tier or eighth tier. I thought you were using the fact that he was 8/5 on the m/l to further support your point.

I think Broadyway Bistro will at some point have a say. They may not race him hard tonight, but if he gets a decent post in the final, he is not without a shot.

botster
08-22-2009, 10:19 AM
My point wasn't that he is first tier, second tier or eighth tier. I thought you were using the fact that he was 8/5 on the m/l to further support your point.

I think Broadyway Bistro will at some point have a say. They may not race him hard tonight, but if he gets a decent post in the final, he is not without a shot.

Understood.Bit...I may play cold THE CHANCALLOR with VESUVIO AS in exotics if the price is right in the elimination.This is the only other horse I see that can go with him to some degree.

botster
08-22-2009, 02:16 PM
30 58:1 1:28:0 1:56:2

Peck believed the track was about three seconds off.

botster
08-22-2009, 09:53 PM
My point wasn't that he is first tier, second tier or eighth tier. I thought you were using the fact that he was 8/5 on the m/l to further support your point.

I think Broadyway Bistro will at some point have a say. They may not race him hard tonight, but if he gets a decent post in the final, he is not without a shot.

Good call Bit... I hope you didn't wait for the final to bet him.

Sea Biscuit
08-23-2009, 12:13 AM
Sent off as 1/5 favorite and got away with a slow first quarter (29.3) got away with a slow half (59.4) and wilted away and broke under mild pressure.

Not a good sign.


Sea Biscuit.

LottaKash
08-23-2009, 12:36 AM
Sent off as 1/5 favorite and got away with a slow first quarter (29.3) got away with a slow half (59.4) and wilted away and broke under mild pressure.

Not a good sign.


Sea Biscuit.

Maybe he should've "ducked" the 1/2 miler as well......:D ...he didn't like it at all...The track was very dull tonite, tho....and the only two winners in any of their last five races both broke, in that elim......The rest were 3d "tier" horses, imo...

I think he (The Chancellor) may have been a little sore from those brutal fractions that he had been chasing, in his last 3-starts....He looked like a lock vs. that bunch...too bad for the connections, he deserved to win one finally...

best,

The Bit
08-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Good call Bit... I hope you didn't wait for the final to bet him.

I didn't wait for the final, but I made a rather small play expecting the typical drop into the three hole and just make the final trip. I had a good exacta with the Miller's horse and Broadway and a decent enough play to win on Broadway to keep my sanity, just in case.

Chance didn't so good.

The Bit
08-23-2009, 07:51 PM
Watching the replay the Chance was really bad. He was empty mid-backstretch.

The Bit
08-29-2009, 09:29 PM
The Chance broke again tonight but it wouldn't have mattered. He was going to do no better than fourth behind Muscle Hill and other killers like Southern Rocketop and Cruisealong ( 128-1 , still eligible for Nw3 ) ...

No excuses tonight either, he was carried into it while gapping 2nd over by MH and than was 3rd over for a brief moment before the stretch.

botster
08-29-2009, 10:46 PM
The Chance broke again tonight but it wouldn't have mattered. He was going to do no better than fourth behind Muscle Hill and other killers like Southern Rocketop and Cruisealong ( 128-1 , still eligible for Nw3 ) ...

No excuses tonight either, he was carried into it while gapping 2nd over by MH and than was 3rd over for a brief moment before the stretch.

Not really a surprise bit after last week...he has gone off again.I needed him for second on Hambo Day for a nice score. I called him RIGHT that day, he was GIANT at 78-1.I had caught a HUGE NUMBER a few years back in the OAKS with a similiar price longshot with similiar form in which I posted here.It didn't work out in my favor, but that race showed me I have a good idea when one is coming around at a big mutual.When it comes down to it that is the only thing that matters to me.