Curious question..can anyone answer??

[ryanxpress]

I have a question if anyone could answer please go into detail....If Zenyatta was to ever face RA..whatever track it may be..Say the scenario gives RA the advantage..Can it be possible for Sheriffs to change Zenyatta running style this late in her career...Maybe teach her how to stay closer to the pace and not depend on the others horses to set the race up...And if he can how long would it take?and what process takes place in her training?Thanks

[bisket]

yes she could be taught to run her races different, but she's running her races just the way she needs to win on polytrack and the breeders cup. teaching her a new trick now, and then right afterwards to try and get her to go back to her old style of racing could be very confusing to her. if you hear what zens connections are saying they don't want to comprimise her chances of winning the breeders cup. this is what they are talking about. in my opinion

[andymays]

I have a question if anyone could answer please go into detail....If Zenyatta was to ever face RA..whatever track it may be..Say the scenario gives RA the advantage..Can it be possible for Sheriffs to change Zenyatta running style this late in her career...Maybe teach her how to stay closer to the pace and not depend on the others horses to set the race up...And if he can how long would it take?and what process takes place in her training?Thanks


Even if he could change her style he would never try. Most of the time when you try to change the optimum running style it doesn't work very well.

[ryanxpress]

Does anyone remember any horse in particular that has done this before..C

[Hanover1]

I have a question if anyone could answer please go into detail....If Zenyatta was to ever face RA..whatever track it may be..Say the scenario gives RA the advantage..Can it be possible for Sheriffs to change Zenyatta running style this late in her career...Maybe teach her how to stay closer to the pace and not depend on the others horses to set the race up...And if he can how long would it take?and what process takes place in her training?Thanks
First of all if they faced off, I suspect a short field, and Zen would not be that far off the pace in that scenario. A horse can be taugh to lay closer easily, to answer that question, but most run true to form with the best results. Schooling usually takes place alot earlier on, and she may have shown that shes best left alone to fire when called upon. I think from a purist point of view the question arises: If Rachel ran her down to 3/4 in .10 and out the mile in .33, would laying that close to the pace be suicide, and would be laying that far off be to much ground to cover? RA has shown track record type speed at 9f, so I really dont see them ever hooking up. I dont think Zen wants any of that imo.

[ryanxpress]

Are you saying PACE MAKES RACE?

[Gone2Golf]

It would be very difficult to change Zenyatta's running style and besides, she's undefeated, there's no need to change. No doubt Rachel would have an advantage in most match-ups with Z, she has a great crusing speed and can still accelerate in the stretch. She is a very special filly. RA's advantage shrinks somewhat in a 14 horse field (like the BC) where the pace is presumedly much faster but at 9 furlongs, I like her chances. I wouldn't rule out a BC match-up though, RA doesn't have that many options for the fall.

[bisket]

you never really know if a horse can win a race running a different way until the horse runs differently and wins. of course a horse can run races differently and win. all zen would have to do is use her turn of foot twice in a race instead of once. her brother (street sense) did this in both his biggest wins and his narrow loss in the preakness. he was like zen in that he lolly gagged coming out of the gate and his first 1/2 was usually slow, but after that first 1/2 he'd throw in a 22 second quarter to get position closer to the leaders. then relax for a 1/4, and then explode around the turn and overtake horses at the beginning of the stretch. imop zen would be capable of this. she's got the same turn of foot street sense was blessed with, and the stamina as well to run hard at two different points of a race. she's just never had to do it in a race. of course she does have to do this to actually do this to say she can, but from what i've seen i believe she has that ability. this is why i believe moss and shirrefs are shortchanging her. you gotta challenge your runners to see what they got.

[Hanover1]

Are you saying PACE MAKES RACE?
I am saying HORSE makes race-we all do it differently to achieve same goal.....

[sandpit]

Does anyone remember any horse in particular that has done this before..C

Cryptoclearance was a frontrunner when he first started training; he won his debut by about a dozen lengths going gate to wire. However, Schulhofer knew he had a good horse that could go all day, so he decided to train him to relax early, with a target to run at. The horse got to liking it so much that he would lay waaaaaay back in his workouts, only to come blowing by his workmate in the lane. The change in style worked pretty well; he retired as one of the top 10 all time money earners; pretty strong for a group that included Alysheba, Bet Twice, Java Gold, Lost Code, Gone West and Gulch.

[bobbyt62]

ryanexpress, i love pp's as much i racing itself. so it was no feat to wade through "champions" again looking for this type of thing. one thing that i noticed (a long time ago) is that very few ALL TIME GREATS (as opposed to 1 year "champions" which are also in the book) were deep closers (more than 10 lengths behind at first call). there are exceptions, obviously, but COMPARATIVELY few. interestingly, the biggest transformation of a great, is secretariat. as a two year old, he averaged 7 lengths off the lead at the first call (average of 8 1/2 lengths in 2yo routes). stalked first race as 3yo, then wired gotham, stalked in wood, and was 9 1/2 off in derby. from there out, he was never more than 1 1/2 lengths off at first call. 4 of last 8 were wire jobs. prior to "champions" all racing history, as far as i know, did not get into the race by race running styles of the greats. if my house was burning down, champions is one of the first things i'd grab. i think zenyatta is a great, but her running style is not typical for a great. fans of needles, little current, exceller, et cetera, please remember there are exceptions, and that's what they are. the vast majority of greats were stalkers (less than 6 lengths at first call) or front runners. never read about nashua being a speed horse----but 13 of his 22 wins were wire jobs. 2 were from more than 2L off. the other 7 were less than 2L. 18 of seabiscuits' 32 wins (throw out match race) were wire jobs. 11 of his 23 wins after tom smith took him over were wires. 5 others he was between 1/2L and 1 1/2L off. most of the greats like seabiscuit, nashua, etc., WERE rateable, but most raced on or near the lead most of the time.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Does anyone remember any horse in particular that has done this before..C
Watch the Travers next week. Summer Bird was known as a bit of a plodder even when he won the Belmont. All of a sudden in the Haskell he was much closer to the pace and managed to beat everyone but Rachel. Maybe the change in tactics by Ice was due to wanting to keep Rachel in sight just like you are suggesting that Zenyatta might have to do. We'll see where he is on the clubhouse turn next week and see if it's really a change in style or was a one race effort in order to track Rachel. He may have the same problem trying to track Quality Road who won't be on the lead but still closer than Summer Bird used to run.

[tucker6]

ryanexpress, i love pp's as much i racing itself. so it was no feat to wade through "champions" again looking for this type of thing. one thing that i noticed (a long time ago) is that very few ALL TIME GREATS (as opposed to 1 year "champions" which are also in the book) were deep closers (more than 10 lengths behind at first call). there are exceptions, obviously, but COMPARATIVELY few. interestingly, the biggest transformation of a great, is secretariat. as a two year old, he averaged 7 lengths off the lead at the first call (average of 8 1/2 lengths in 2yo routes). stalked first race as 3yo, then wired gotham, stalked in wood, and was 9 1/2 off in derby. from there out, he was never more than 1 1/2 lengths off at first call. 4 of last 8 were wire jobs. prior to "champions" all racing history, as far as i know, did not get into the race by race running styles of the greats. if my house was burning down, champions is one of the first things i'd grab. i think zenyatta is a great, but her running style is not typical for a great. fans of needles, little current, exceller, et cetera, please remember there are exceptions, and that's what they are. the vast majority of greats were stalkers (less than 6 lengths at first call) or front runners. never read about nashua being a speed horse----but 13 of his 22 wins were wire jobs. 2 were from more than 2L off. the other 7 were less than 2L. 18 of seabiscuits' 32 wins (throw out match race) were wire jobs. 11 of his 23 wins after tom smith took him over were wires. 5 others he was between 1/2L and 1 1/2L off. most of the greats like seabiscuit, nashua, etc., WERE rateable, but most raced on or near the lead most of the time.
very nice analysis and post. :ThmbUp:

Secretariat was the first that came to my mind when discussing transformations. He went from a deep closer to a lead horse style in the first 20 second of the Preakness.

[jonnielu]

I have a question if anyone could answer please go into detail....If Zenyatta was to ever face RA..whatever track it may be..Say the scenario gives RA the advantage..Can it be possible for Sheriffs to change Zenyatta running style this late in her career...Maybe teach her how to stay closer to the pace and not depend on the others horses to set the race up...And if he can how long would it take?and what process takes place in her training?Thanks

If Zenyatta changed running style, she would likely lose all advantage in a contest with RA. Polytrack would not be a big factor, because it would not tire Rachel any more then it would tire Zenyatta. Running on poly may actually give Rachel an advantage with her front end style, and enable her to go longer, at speed, then she can on dirt.

The disadvantage of the front runner is that it does not know how fast it needs to run early, and in doing so, it supplies a target to the that horse that can follow comfortably to the 3/8's pole.

The best example of what usually happens when two champions meet with these opposing styles is the 1978 JCGC.

jdl

[ryanxpress]

Heres my other question(by the way thanks for the input on the thread)...Does RA have more puttons to push then Zenyatta..RA reminds me alot of a phrase my friend used a FRONT RUNNING CLOSER

[Greyfox]

If something isn't broken, you don't fix it.
Zenyatta is doing just fine running as she is.
Trying to train a horse to run against her inherited biological advantages with regards to oxygen processing and muscle fiber optimization is a huge mistake for any trainer to make.

[toetoe]

I'm no Zenyatta apologist, but she did win on dirt impressively at Oaklawn, and from well behind, I think.

[CBedo]

I could totally be misremembering this, but didn't I read in Seabiscuit, that they they changed Seabiscuit's training regimen before the War Admiral match race to have him race with a little more early speed?

[46zilzal]

I have a question if anyone could answer please go into detail....If Zenyatta was to ever face RA..whatever track it may be..Say the scenario gives RA the advantage..Can it be possible for Sheriffs to change Zenyatta running style this late in her career...Maybe teach her how to stay closer to the pace and not depend on the others horses to set the race up...And if he can how long would it take?and what process takes place in her training?Thanks
No it is hard wired

[bobbyt62]

cbedo, the year before the match race, 'biscuit ran 15 times, with 11 wins-----7 wins were wire jobs, including a 7 furlong wire at (incredibly) 3.2-1 odds.

[Hanover1]

I could totally be misremembering this, but didn't I read in Seabiscuit, that they they changed Seabiscuit's training regimen before the War Admiral match race to have him race with a little more early speed?
His schooling before the match race was primarily to get him to leave. War Admiral was blessed with tactical speed, so the idea was to control the pace and play catch me if you can.....worked perfectly.

[46zilzal]

His schooling before the match race was primarily to get him to leave. War Admiral was blessed with tactical speed, so the idea was to control the pace and play catch me if you can.....worked perfectly.
just like EVERY match race

[ryanxpress]

His schooling before the match race was primarily to get him to leave. War Admiral was blessed with tactical speed, so the idea was to control the pace and play catch me if you can.....worked perfectly.
Hanover it seems your a big harness fan ..who was the best harness horse you ever saw Niatross,Nihilator,Cam fella,Or Somebeachsomewhere