MTB-Real or counterfiet?

[Hanover1]

I cannot help but look at the stopwatch and see that MTB is (was) beating a weak crop of colts. And then the WVA Derby.....showed his pedegree that time as well....since hes a gelding, we will see more of him, however I recall watching Funnycide in a 60k claimer at Gulfstream, and was out of the money that day too....he will duck the big boys from now on out, and I suspect his star has risen and is setting...not the real deal-save your cash and bet against him for the price :lol:

[slew101]

Funny Cide never ran in a claimer. Maybe it was an optional claimer where others were in for a tag, but he was never offered in a claiming race.

As for MTB, I think he could have a run of in the money finishes and win a few races if he stays healthy. But I don't expect him to win another big race.

[ghostyapper]

Your memory is not too good because FC never ran in a 60k claimer and finish out of the money at gp. He ran in 2 opt claiming races with high purses, winning one by 5 and finishing 2nd by a length in the other.

As for mtb he will probably never contend for a championship but he's got the talent to win big races, including g1's if they setup for him. Just look how weak the older horse division is right now. Being a derby winner he'll burn some money but I see this horse being a cash register for years to come.

[slew101]

I remembered the first one at Gulfstream, which was his first race as a 4-year-old. Didn't recall the 2nd, but knew they never offered him for sale.

[QUOTE=ghostyapper]Your memory is not too good because FC never ran in a 60k claimer and finish out of the money at gp. He ran in 2 opt claiming races with high purses, winning one by 5 and finishing 2nd by a length in the other.

[DaylightDies]

No matter what happens from now on; he is a Kentucky Derby winner. That was an amazing race and nobody can take it away from him, and I'll gladly root for him for years to come; win or lose

[ghostyapper]

I remembered the first one at Gulfstream, which was his first race as a 4-year-old. Didn't recall the 2nd, but knew they never offered him for sale.

yes the one he was by 5 in a hand ride. Finish out of the money???

[tribecaagent]

I think the majority of fans believe MTB is not that good, therefore, when he does win anothr big race (I believe he will), he'll be a price.

[jognlope]

So Funny Cide's owners actually put him in a race to be claimed? That does not sound like Jack Knowlton to me.

[Tom Barrister]

The horse won the Derby easily and finished second to the alleged next-coming-of-Ruffian (Rachel Alexandria). I don't hold a poor performance in the West Virginia Derby against any horse.

[Java Gold@TFT]

The horse won the Derby easily and finished second to the alleged next-coming-of-Ruffian (Rachel Alexandria). I don't hold a poor performance in the West Virginia Derby against any horse.
The horse is 1 for 7 since leaving Canada. He has WON one G-I (granted a very big race) and one G-IIIC. Big fat hairy deal. If you like the "little engine that could" analogy or the "gutsy little colt who gives his best" or the "aw shucks trainer" who hasn't seen another horse he trains in the last 4 months, then fine. That's anyone's perogative and I won't hold it against you. Just please bring your money to the betting windows on 8/29 because I will be happy usisng it for a steak dinner when he burns more money. Past Derby winners who never garnered the fandom of MTB include horses like Giacomo and Lil E Tee. He is just flat out really not that good. If he wins another G-I in his life it will be against a much depleted group of older horses when he is a 5yo. JMO.

[ghostyapper]

The horse is 1 for 7 since leaving Canada. He has WON one G-I (granted a very big race) and one G-IIIC. Big fat hairy deal. If you like the "little engine that could" analogy or the "gutsy little colt who gives his best" or the "aw shucks trainer" who hasn't seen another horse he trains in the last 4 months, then fine. That's anyone's perogative and I won't hold it against you. Just please bring your money to the betting windows on 8/29 because I will be happy usisng it for a steak dinner when he burns more money. Past Derby winners who never garnered the fandom of MTB include horses like Giacomo and Lil E Tee. He is just flat out really not that good. If he wins another G-I in his life it will be against a much depleted group of older horses when he is a 5yo. JMO.

Not that good won the kentucky derby and finished itm in the other 2 legs of the tc. It's so hilarious how every year when a horse has a so-so performance after the tc people pile on and claim they were lucky or never will win another big race. Happened with FC and Curlin and it's now happening with mtb.

[Grits]

The horse is 1 for 7 since leaving Canada. He has WON one G-I (granted a very big race) and one G-IIIC. Big fat hairy deal. If you like the "little engine that could" analogy or the "gutsy little colt who gives his best" or the "aw shucks trainer" who hasn't seen another horse he trains in the last 4 months, then fine. That's anyone's perogative and I won't hold it against you. Just please bring your money to the betting windows on 8/29 because I will be happy usisng it for a steak dinner when he burns more money. Past Derby winners who never garnered the fandom of MTB include horses like Giacomo and Lil E Tee. He is just flat out really not that good. If he wins another G-I in his life it will be against a much depleted group of older horses when he is a 5yo. JMO.

Wow Java, I'm glad you didn't add "humble" in that JMO. You're one opinionated dude . . . . :lol: And rough too.:lol:

I like Bird (and his one horse trainer) pretty good. I do. I hope the only thing you're gonna be eating is your words.

[Hanover1]

He doesnt even belong in the same barn as FC or Curlin (CURLIN??? puhleezze)-he is not the power packed star we all want to learn how to read a condition book to watch.........amongst the greats, hes not a horse but a pig..... :lol:

[Hanover1]

Regarding FC -I stand corrected. He was in an OC (60k), and WAS beaten. You get the point.......

[Java Gold@TFT]

I told you guys that if you want to be a fan of the horse then you are more than welcome to and that it's fine by me. I just don't see it. People who like to bash Rachel because she has beaten up on a nondescriipt group of colts are also the first ones to defend MTB as a horse who finished ITM in the 3 TC races. I'll stand by my assertiona thta he still hasn't WON another race this year and if you bet him to win or on top of your exotics he has burned your money 6 times in the last 10 months. My belief is that this streak will not end any time soon. Be a fan, enjoy the horse just don't put your money on him. (And I will be humble this time. ;) ) JMHO

P.S. Giacomo won the Derby then finished ITM in the Preakness behind Afleet Alex and then finished 7th in the Belmont after Moss says he got upset in the detention barn. Who's hanging around defending his race record after the 15 minutes of fame?

[JustRalph]

The horse is 1 for 7 since leaving Canada. He has WON one G-I (granted a very big race) and one G-IIIC. Big fat hairy deal. If you like the "little engine that could" analogy or the "gutsy little colt who gives his best" or the "aw shucks trainer" who hasn't seen another horse he trains in the last 4 months, then fine. That's anyone's perogative and I won't hold it against you. Just please bring your money to the betting windows on 8/29 because I will be happy usisng it for a steak dinner when he burns more money. Past Derby winners who never garnered the fandom of MTB include horses like Giacomo and Lil E Tee. He is just flat out really not that good. If he wins another G-I in his life it will be against a much depleted group of older horses when he is a 5yo. JMO.

He already has had a much better career than horses like Monarchos and Lil E Tee. He blows Giacomo out of the water if you ask me. You just don't understand that he needs the right setup.........that's all........he is what he is. He ran a great race in the Derby and got the setup he needed. Nothing more.

The horse won the Derby easily and finished second to the alleged next-coming-of-Ruffian (Rachel Alexandria). I don't hold a poor performance in the West Virginia Derby against any horse.

Finishing 2nd to Rachel after that Derby run was more impressive than many other horses..............

I predict he makes plenty of money running 2nd and 3rd in a bunch of nice races............and occasionally winning a nice one. With the right setup that is.

[ghostyapper]

I told you guys that if you want to be a fan of the horse then you are more than welcome to and that it's fine by me. I just don't see it. People who like to bash Rachel because she has beaten up on a nondescriipt group of colts are also the first ones to defend MTB as a horse who finished ITM in the 3 TC races. I'll stand by my assertiona thta he still hasn't WON another race this year and if you bet him to win or on top of your exotics he has burned your money 6 times in the last 10 months. My belief is that this streak will not end any time soon. Be a fan, enjoy the horse just don't put your money on him. (And I will be humble this time. ;) ) JMHO

P.S. Giacomo won the Derby then finished ITM in the Preakness behind Afleet Alex and then finished 7th in the Belmont after Moss says he got upset in the detention barn. Who's hanging around defending his race record after the 15 minutes of fame?

It works both ways. People who like to praise rachel as the best ever are the first ones to say MTB isn't that good when she only beat him by a diminishing length.

As for Giacomo, anyone with a brain can see that MTB's preakness was better than Giacomo's, who lost by 10 lengths to a horse who almost fell. MTB lost to rachel, the greatest filly ever (at least according to some) by a length. He followed it up with a 3rd place finish in the belmont after the great calvin borel made a ridiculously early move, again a better performance than giacomo.

Giacomo wasn't great but he certainly had talent. Had he been able to stay healthy and his connections kept him on the east coast (instead of running on the speed favoring west coast tracks against lava man) he could have had a much more impressive record.

[46zilzal]

The horse won the Derby easily and finished second to the alleged next-coming-of-Ruffian (Rachel Alexandria). I don't hold a poor performance in the West Virginia Derby against any horse.
especially one with a trapped epiglottis

[FenceBored]

Can we really say how good a horse MTB is? Wooley's stats don't make me comfortable saying that MTB is as well prepared for graded competition as he might be with a different trainer. Since there's nobody willing to step up and pay RA type of money for a gelding, we're never going to find out if someone else could do better with him.

[Hanover1]

Can we really say how good a horse MTB is? Wooley's stats don't make me comfortable saying that MTB is as well prepared for graded competition as he might be with a different trainer. Since there's nobody willing to step up and pay RA type of money for a gelding, we're never going to find out if someone else could do better with him.
Once a horse is racetight, it aint rocket science to keep him fit. As to if he would have been better with someone else training him, it is unlikely, as he has shown his best (IMO). Game runners, even 2nd tier types (like MTB) run despite how they get ready. If they are sound and racetight, you wont get any more out of them that you are already getting, unless you need a pilot change, and he needed one, and still got beat...lol. I agree that its kinda sad to see his trainer ignore the rest of his shed, considering he does not train 100 of them, but Id ride the train as well if there was nothing better going on.....Since he is a little horse, he is easy on himself, and may well suck along picking up checks for some time to come, but as far as a dazzling watchstopper goes-its the filly we need to watch.....(barring spectre of lameness).

[statik27]

Regarding FC -I stand corrected. He was in an OC (60k), and WAS beaten. You get the point.......

Funny Cide was dual Classic winner and won the Jockey Club Gold Cup. show some respect he was a fun little horse.

[Hanover1]

Funny Cide was dual Classic winner and won the Jockey Club Gold Cup. show some respect he was a fun little horse.
I watched Krone ride him once and he liked to dump her in the turn-out the money that day......ooops. MTB gonna make the picture clear for ya real soon......stay tuned :D

[statik27]

No one is saying MTB or FC are all time greats, but even those great geldings like John Henry, Forego, Exterminator, Kelso ect. only won half the time or a little better. They were warriors, they won some and lost many, but kept coming back for more knocks.

Now your saying that MTB a horse who won the derby and placed in two classics, isn't that good. Fine, but I say enjoy the ride, a horse with MTB's style is going to get beat alot, I say, ALOT. But he'll keep coming, keep grinding'em out and if he stays happy and sound, his race'll come around again.

I'd take a warrior gelding running in graded stakes races for years over an 18 month wonder horse who doesn't make it past summer of their 3yo year any day.

[Cat Thief]

This operation he just had may help his breathing considerably. I think he will do okay, maybe not a world beater but I think he will earn his keep and more.

[bisket]

i'm still gonna be looking at him in the classic this year. thats the track that'll play to his strength, and he'll add some spice to your exotics i'm sure. because from now till then he aint gonna do much. i'll analyze it at that time, but ever since i heard they were pointing to the classic; he's had a check next to his name for that race in my cappin notes.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Now your saying that MTB a horse who won the derby and placed in two classics, isn't that good. Fine, but I say enjoy the ride, a horse with MTB's style is going to get beat alot, I say, ALOT. But he'll keep coming, keep grinding'em out and if he stays happy and sound, his race'll come around again.

I'd take a warrior gelding running in graded stakes races for years over an 18 month wonder horse who doesn't make it past summer of their 3yo year any day.
I'll be glad if he keeps running and puts people in the stands. Just don't ask me to put actual money on him when he runs. Just too many excuses and variables.

And I will never, ever, ever buy into the "he would have caught Rachel if the race was longer theory". Borel ran the exact race he had to to win. If the race had been another 1/16th longer he would have timed her move differently. The jocks actually do know where the finish line is. They don't ride to win the race an 1/8th of a mile past the finish line. It is where it is and she got there when she had to. MTB didn't. Now let's consider the horses MTB beat in Maryland:

Rachel Alexandra 121 13 7 1-hd 1-hd 1-1/2 1-4 1-1 Borel 1.80
Mine That Bird 126 2 13 13 13 11-3 4-hd 2-1/2 Smith 6.60
Musket Man 126 3 8 8-1/2 8-2 7-1 3-2 3-2 1/2 Coa 11.10
Flying Private 126 10 11 10-hd 10-hd 10-hd 6-1 4-1 1/2 Garcia 25.40
Big Drama 126 1 1 2-2 2-1 1/2 2-1 2-hd 5-2 1/4 Velazquez 10.40
Papa Clem 126 7 5 6-1 4-hd 4-1 5-1 6-nk Bejarano 14.10
Terrain 126 6 12 12-4 12-2 1/2 9-2 1/2 7-3 7-3/4 Rose 25.80
Luv Gov 126 4 10 11-2 1/2 11-1/2 12-hd 10-3 8-2 1/4 Theriot 24.10
General Quarters 126 8 6 7-1 1/2 7-2 6-1 8-1/2 9-7 3/4 Leparoux 16.30
Friesan Fire 126 5 3 3-1/2 3-1 3-1 9-hd 10-7 1/4 Saez 9.00
Pioneerof the Nile 126 9 4 4-1/2 5-hd 5-hd 11-7 11-6 1/4 Gomez 6.10
Tone It Down 126 12 9 9-5 9-3 13 12-1 1/2 12-1/2 Desormeaux 23.90
Take the Points 126 11 2 5-hd 6-1/2 8-hd 13 13 Prado 18.


Since May the only horse behind MTB who has won a race is Take The Points who won a G-I on the turf. MTB also finished behind Big Drama in WV who is a proven sprinter. So basically your argument is that he finished second to Rachel but finished ahead of a bunch of stakes wannabees.

Of course in the Belmont no horse in the race has won again whether they finished in front of him or behind him. Then again there is that Derby field. The only one to come out of that whole race to win after the first Saturday in May was Summer Bird. The rest either can't find the track or can't find the winner's circle.

So the point is what? By my count he raced against 39 entries during the TC races and a grand total of 3 have come back to win again - Rachel, Summer Bird and Take The Points. MTB has also not won again. It may seem harsh to his fans but it's the truth. Al Davis - "Just win baby, just win".

[Cat Thief]

I loved Funny Cide. And have lots of respect for him.

[bisket]

that operation doesn't solve that problem all the time. sometimes it takes care of it, but sometimes that could be an ongoing problem with him. some horses just have that problem and theres really not anything you can do about it.

[bisket]

mtb will be finishing in the money on a regular basis, but probably won't be in the winners circle anytime soon.

[GaryG]

i'm still gonna be looking at him in the classic this year. thats the track that'll play to his strength, and he'll add some spice to your exotics i'm sure. because from now till then he aint gonna do much. i'll analyze it at that time, but ever since i heard they were pointing to the classic; he's had a check next to his name for that race in my cappin notes.May you should just look and not bet....in the Classic? Don't think so.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'll be glad if he keeps running and puts people in the stands. Just don't ask me to put actual money on him when he runs. Just too many excuses and variables.

And I will never, ever, ever buy into the "he would have caught Rachel if the race was longer theory". Borel ran the exact race he had to to win. If the race had been another 1/16th longer he would have timed her move differently. The jocks actually do know where the finish line is.
Of course in the Belmont no horse in the race has won again whether they finished in front of him or behind him.


If Smith didn't have to adjust his route and take the overland route MTB would have passed Rachel before the finish line, even though Borel knew exactly where the finish line is located.

Rachel was done at the wire.

[Hanover1]

mtb will be finishing in the money on a regular basis, but probably won't be in the winners circle anytime soon.
As this crop matures, he looks worse and worse-we have seen his best, and they keep comin outta the woodwork. A future on the weeds looks good if level of competition heats up-eat my hat if he wins Travers... :rolleyes:

[bisket]

you can't play this game afraid of playing a horse that loses a couple races. horses go in and out form all the time. you can't be gunshy and hit a good play. the difference in time between the horse that goes under the wire first, and a horse thats 1 lenghth back is faster than you can blink an eye. all a horse needs sometimes is a favorable surface and the right distance. fact is the classic is on poly. the pace will be much slower than mtb has been facing on dirt, and mtb has a better kick than lots of others. sorta like a certain poly superstar mare!! lots of people made the same comment gary just made to me last year when i said tiago would be in the money at the classic, and i was right last year. unfortunately my money was on the wrong two horses from across the pond in the first two spots.

[ghostyapper]

I'll be glad if he keeps running and puts people in the stands. Just don't ask me to put actual money on him when he runs. Just too many excuses and variables.

And I will never, ever, ever buy into the "he would have caught Rachel if the race was longer theory". Borel ran the exact race he had to to win. If the race had been another 1/16th longer he would have timed her move differently. The jocks actually do know where the finish line is. They don't ride to win the race an 1/8th of a mile past the finish line. It is where it is and she got there when she had to. MTB didn't. Now let's consider the horses MTB beat in Maryland:

Rachel Alexandra 121 13 7 1-hd 1-hd 1-1/2 1-4 1-1 Borel 1.80
Mine That Bird 126 2 13 13 13 11-3 4-hd 2-1/2 Smith 6.60
Musket Man 126 3 8 8-1/2 8-2 7-1 3-2 3-2 1/2 Coa 11.10
Flying Private 126 10 11 10-hd 10-hd 10-hd 6-1 4-1 1/2 Garcia 25.40
Big Drama 126 1 1 2-2 2-1 1/2 2-1 2-hd 5-2 1/4 Velazquez 10.40
Papa Clem 126 7 5 6-1 4-hd 4-1 5-1 6-nk Bejarano 14.10
Terrain 126 6 12 12-4 12-2 1/2 9-2 1/2 7-3 7-3/4 Rose 25.80
Luv Gov 126 4 10 11-2 1/2 11-1/2 12-hd 10-3 8-2 1/4 Theriot 24.10
General Quarters 126 8 6 7-1 1/2 7-2 6-1 8-1/2 9-7 3/4 Leparoux 16.30
Friesan Fire 126 5 3 3-1/2 3-1 3-1 9-hd 10-7 1/4 Saez 9.00
Pioneerof the Nile 126 9 4 4-1/2 5-hd 5-hd 11-7 11-6 1/4 Gomez 6.10
Tone It Down 126 12 9 9-5 9-3 13 12-1 1/2 12-1/2 Desormeaux 23.90
Take the Points 126 11 2 5-hd 6-1/2 8-hd 13 13 Prado 18.


Since May the only horse behind MTB who has won a race is Take The Points who won a G-I on the turf. MTB also finished behind Big Drama in WV who is a proven sprinter. So basically your argument is that he finished second to Rachel but finished ahead of a bunch of stakes wannabees.

Of course in the Belmont no horse in the race has won again whether they finished in front of him or behind him. Then again there is that Derby field. The only one to come out of that whole race to win after the first Saturday in May was Summer Bird. The rest either can't find the track or can't find the winner's circle.

So the point is what? By my count he raced against 39 entries during the TC races and a grand total of 3 have come back to win again - Rachel, Summer Bird and Take The Points. MTB has also not won again. It may seem harsh to his fans but it's the truth. Al Davis - "Just win baby, just win".

I hate the way you and so many cherry pick your analysis of races. When MTB wins the derby in a romp, lets poke holes at it because none of the horses came back to win, ignore the "just win baby." When MTB loses, lets just say that he lost and that means he's no good, not taking into account any trip or health problems, therefore "just win baby" is suddenly valid again.

[WinterTriangle]

I cannot help but look at the stopwatch and see that MTB is (was) beating a weak crop of colts.

I don't get the question. If MTB had never done anything, then showed up and won the KY Derby, I might wonder.

the horse was a Canadian champion, won lots of stakes races there, then wins the KY Derby on a good setup, but then also hits the board in the Preakness and the Belmont.

that's counterfeit? :confused:

[Hanover1]

I don't get the question. If MTB had never done anything, then showed up and won the KY Derby, I might wonder.

the horse was a Canadian champion, won lots of stakes races there, then wins the KY Derby on a good setup, but then also hits the board in the Preakness and the Belmont.

that's counterfeit? :confused:
No question was asked. Statement was made. A "good setup" was a weak crop and the slop- (see racetime and fractions). A win is a win for sure, however when he faces REAL runners of top quality-he does not measure up-see definition of "weak crop".....Watch Travers-take notes.

[Hanover1]

I hate the way you and so many cherry pick your analysis of races. When MTB wins the derby in a romp, lets poke holes at it because none of the horses came back to win, ignore the "just win baby." When MTB loses, lets just say that he lost and that means he's no good, not taking into account any trip or health problems, therefore "just win baby" is suddenly valid again.
Lets "cherry pick" the REST of his season, then talk :eek: Some Brit horse will drill him in the Classic, then what will you believe??

[Java Gold@TFT]

I hate the way you and so many cherry pick your analysis of races. When MTB wins the derby in a romp, lets poke holes at it because none of the horses came back to win, ignore the "just win baby." When MTB loses, lets just say that he lost and that means he's no good, not taking into account any trip or health problems, therefore "just win baby" is suddenly valid again.
OK, let me cherry pick some more. Is it cherry picking if I point out the horses he ran against in NM this spring and their current records? is it cherry picking if I criticize the horses he beat in the BC Juvy on poly last year? (OOps. sorry there weren't any) Is it cherry picking to say that the Canadian 2yo Champion on poly won ONE G-III race and a few listed stakes?

Let's see the excuse list: IF Smith rode him properly in Maryland, IF Smith rode him properly in NY, IF smith rode him properly in WV, IF he didn't move too early in the races in NM, IF he had only gotten to SA sooner for the BC, IF, IF, IF... Every loss comes with a built in excuse. Unfortunately the only real excuse is that if everything doesn;t set up perfectly for him he will lose.

The health excuse is also pretty lame. That horse gets the fine tooth comb treatment before and after every race. It wasn't until a bad work this week that there was a problem. Last week evrything was perfect during his work. He even worked a little too fast. Any horse can flip a pallette or block an epiglotis at any time. They are not always pre-existing conditions. If you really believe that he didn't get a full scale physical after losing the WV Derby then you are just living in a dream world. Nothing showed up. He didn't have a physical excuse for not being able to pass a tired confirmed sprinter in the stretch. Just the facts.

[JustRalph]

He is a huge S type closer..........they win about 11% and often end up in the Super and Tri.......... nothing else has to be said. He ran a big one and got the setup in the Derby........outran everybody but Rachel (no I don't think he beats Rachel if they run all day) in the Preakness......... good on him. It will be fun to watch him when he is a 4 yr old too.........

[ghostyapper]

OK, let me cherry pick some more. Is it cherry picking if I point out the horses he ran against in NM this spring and their current records? is it cherry picking if I criticize the horses he beat in the BC Juvy on poly last year? (OOps. sorry there weren't any) Is it cherry picking to say that the Canadian 2yo Champion on poly won ONE G-III race and a few listed stakes?

Let's see the excuse list: IF Smith rode him properly in Maryland, IF Smith rode him properly in NY, IF smith rode him properly in WV, IF he didn't move too early in the races in NM, IF he had only gotten to SA sooner for the BC, IF, IF, IF... Every loss comes with a built in excuse. Unfortunately the only real excuse is that if everything doesn;t set up perfectly for him he will lose.

The health excuse is also pretty lame. That horse gets the fine tooth comb treatment before and after every race. It wasn't until a bad work this week that there was a problem. Last week evrything was perfect during his work. He even worked a little too fast. Any horse can flip a pallette or block an epiglotis at any time. They are not always pre-existing conditions. If you really believe that he didn't get a full scale physical after losing the WV Derby then you are just living in a dream world. Nothing showed up. He didn't have a physical excuse for not being able to pass a tired confirmed sprinter in the stretch. Just the facts.

Well conveniently you've glossed over the belmont ride. And fyi it was borel that rode him in the belmont not smith. But are you saying that borel did not move too soon in a 12 furlong race? That is just a built in excuse is what you are saying? Forget wv race, forget canada, and forget your wise cracks. Did borel move too soon, which might have cost mtb the race yes or no?

[FenceBored]

I'll be glad if he keeps running and puts people in the stands. Just don't ask me to put actual money on him when he runs. Just too many excuses and variables.

And I will never, ever, ever buy into the "he would have caught Rachel if the race was longer theory". Borel ran the exact race he had to to win. If the race had been another 1/16th longer he would have timed her move differently. The jocks actually do know where the finish line is. They don't ride to win the race an 1/8th of a mile past the finish line. It is where it is and she got there when she had to. MTB didn't. Now let's consider the horses MTB beat in Maryland:

Rachel Alexandra 121 13 7 1-hd 1-hd 1-1/2 1-4 1-1 Borel 1.80
Mine That Bird 126 2 13 13 13 11-3 4-hd 2-1/2 Smith 6.60
Musket Man 126 3 8 8-1/2 8-2 7-1 3-2 3-2 1/2 Coa 11.10
Flying Private 126 10 11 10-hd 10-hd 10-hd 6-1 4-1 1/2 Garcia 25.40
Big Drama 126 1 1 2-2 2-1 1/2 2-1 2-hd 5-2 1/4 Velazquez 10.40
Papa Clem 126 7 5 6-1 4-hd 4-1 5-1 6-nk Bejarano 14.10
Terrain 126 6 12 12-4 12-2 1/2 9-2 1/2 7-3 7-3/4 Rose 25.80
Luv Gov 126 4 10 11-2 1/2 11-1/2 12-hd 10-3 8-2 1/4 Theriot 24.10
General Quarters 126 8 6 7-1 1/2 7-2 6-1 8-1/2 9-7 3/4 Leparoux 16.30
Friesan Fire 126 5 3 3-1/2 3-1 3-1 9-hd 10-7 1/4 Saez 9.00
Pioneerof the Nile 126 9 4 4-1/2 5-hd 5-hd 11-7 11-6 1/4 Gomez 6.10
Tone It Down 126 12 9 9-5 9-3 13 12-1 1/2 12-1/2 Desormeaux 23.90
Take the Points 126 11 2 5-hd 6-1/2 8-hd 13 13 Prado 18.


Since May the only horse behind MTB who has won a race is Take The Points who won a G-I on the turf. MTB also finished behind Big Drama in WV who is a proven sprinter. So basically your argument is that he finished second to Rachel but finished ahead of a bunch of stakes wannabees.

Of course in the Belmont no horse in the race has won again whether they finished in front of him or behind him. Then again there is that Derby field. The only one to come out of that whole race to win after the first Saturday in May was Summer Bird. The rest either can't find the track or can't find the winner's circle.

So the point is what? By my count he raced against 39 entries during the TC races and a grand total of 3 have come back to win again - Rachel, Summer Bird and Take The Points. MTB has also not won again. It may seem harsh to his fans but it's the truth. Al Davis - "Just win baby, just win".

It's a little unfair to judge MTB on a lack winners from the Preakness. I think half of the 12 Preakness runners other than MTB haven't run since then.

Rachel Alexandra won next out in the Mother Goose.
Big Drama won next out at Charles Town in a $250 stakes.

Take the Points ran 4th, then 3rd in GIITs, then 1st in the G1T Secretariat

Papa Clem, 3rd in the Longbranch, 4th in the Haskell.

Musket Man hasn't raced again; on the shelf.
Pioneerof the Nile hasn't raced again; retired with injury
Freisan Fire came out of the Preakness injured; on the shelf
Terrain broke down and was euthanized in his next start.
General Quarters had surgery soon after the Preakness; on the shelf

Tone It Down. DRF workout search shows nothing (rachel's go back to her 5/25 work at CD).

Flying Private ran poorly in the Belmont. Who Cares.
Luv Guv ran poorly in the Belmont. Who cares.

[keilan]

If Smith didn't have to adjust his route and take the overland route MTB would have passed Rachel before the finish line, even though Borel knew exactly where the finish line is located.

Rachel was done at the wire.


Absolutely correct,, I think it was Alan Garica who made sure Smith had to go outside near the top of the stretch. If he gets to run inside Rachel gets beat no question.

Give this horse to a good handler and he would win some decent races.

[WinterTriangle]

There are tons of horses that run every day, in stakes races, that people don't go out of their way to make a topic out of.

MTB seems to get under some people's skin, I've noticed.

:lol:

[thespaah]

Every year we don't have a horse or horses that wow the racing media, we think the TC race winners are illegitimate.
Apparently this year is no different.
I look at this way. These are three year olds racing against each other.
They only have to beat the others to be champion. It's all relative.
Had any of the last few which won the Derby and Preakness been fortunate enough to capture the Belmont we'd be reading and hearing "greatness"
That's that.

[Hanover1]

Every year we don't have a horse or horses that wow the racing media, we think the TC race winners are illegitimate.
Apparently this year is no different.
I look at this way. These are three year olds racing against each other.
They only have to beat the others to be champion. It's all relative.
Had any of the last few which won the Derby and Preakness been fortunate enough to capture the Belmont we'd be reading and hearing "greatness"
That's that.
When is a horse not a horse?? When hes a pig.... :lol:

[plainolebill]

MTB was in the hunt for all three legs of the Triple Crown and that says something. He also has some upside - we just may not have seen his best yet: there aren't a lot of genuine 10F horses around so he may have some good races ahead of him.

No disrespect to Smith, Borel and Wooley but I'd also like to see what the horse could do with a top of the line trainer and rider.

[Hanover1]

MTB was in the hunt for all three legs of the Triple Crown and that says something. He also has some upside - we just may not have seen his best yet: there aren't a lot of genuine 10F horses around so he may have some good races ahead of him.

No disrespect to Smith, Borel and Wooley but I'd also like to see what the horse could do with a top of the line trainer and rider.
That is disrespect for all three, but you are entitled to your opinion. The horse has given his all, and what you see is what you get...As for Calvin moving to early in the Belmont, IMO there was a little horse and a lot of racetrack is more like it. He needed a moving van to win that one-not enough horse for 1-1/2m race, regardless of when Calvin moved. Here again, he will suck along for quite awhile, as he is easy on himself, and probably bankroll 4-5mil, but flashbulbs and trophys will be few......time is not on his side considering we have seen his best, and the rest of the bunch are just coming around. Training methods are different for the TC vs extended campaign. I honestly feel the horse took the boys to the dance, and he was not pointed that way, as many others are, from jump street. Now he knocks em off on a bad day for the rest of them, and we expect a hero.....get a grip-he is/and will, show exactly why he was 50-1 on Derby day. Those odds will return soon.....

[plainolebill]

You've said the same thing in multiple posts and you're entitled to your opinion too, but I understood what you were writing the first time.

[Robert Fischer]

As for Calvin moving to early in the Belmont, IMO there was a little horse and a lot of racetrack is more like it. He needed a moving van to win that one-not enough horse for 1-1/2m race, regardless of when Calvin moved.

that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

He may not have been best in the Belmont, but the early move did make it very difficult to tell, and opened the floodgates wide open for anyone to claim that MTB did the most running in the Belmont.

I am of the opinion that the derby was the benefit of the greatest "set-up" or race shape (or intuitive pace or timing) in derby history, as well to a lesser extent a benefit of saving all the ground and possibly again to a lesser extent preference of "going"/surface condition.

The Preakness IMO was a dream setup and even with all the chasers collapsing ,it was not as close as the final margin or the final strides may have appeared.

But the Belmont was a very impressive run from Mine that Bird.

[Hanover1]

that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

He may not have been best in the Belmont, but the early move did make it very difficult to tell, and opened the floodgates wide open for anyone to claim that MTB did the most running in the Belmont.

I am of the opinion that the derby was the benefit of the greatest "set-up" or race shape (or intuitive pace or timing) in derby history, as well to a lesser extent a benefit of saving all the ground and possibly again to a lesser extent preference of "going"/surface condition.

The Preakness IMO was a dream setup and even with all the chasers collapsing ,it was not as close as the final margin or the final strides may have appeared.

But the Belmont was a very impressive run from Mine that Bird.
Since I am a horseman, and not a gambler, it makes a ton of sense-horsesense at that...a small horse generally wont run all day-the distance of 1-1/2m is considered "all day"-a distance history shows us suits larger, rugged horses with long easy strides suited to distance, as opposed to a smaller horse that must pick them up and put them down many more times during the marathon of that distance. Make sense?? A smallish one demensional horse makes little sense at that distance. No comment on the WVA Derby?? Wait till the Travers..... :D

[Imriledup]

I cannot help but look at the stopwatch and see that MTB is (was) beating a weak crop of colts. And then the WVA Derby.....showed his pedegree that time as well....since hes a gelding, we will see more of him, however I recall watching Funnycide in a 60k claimer at Gulfstream, and was out of the money that day too....he will duck the big boys from now on out, and I suspect his star has risen and is setting...not the real deal-save your cash and bet against him for the price :lol:

He doesn't have to be 'the real deal' to win horse races. He just has to be better than his competition on any given day.

The best trait you need to have to be a winning and successful horseplayer is to have an open mind. Your point that he might be overbet going forward is valid (if that's what you are saying) but you still need to have an open mind, there might be a situation down the line where the Bird becomes a good wager.

He doesn't have to be as good as Secretariat in order to be a good win wager somewhere in the future.

[statik27]

Since I am a horseman, and not a gambler, it makes a ton of sense-horsesense at that...a small horse generally wont run all day-the distance of 1-1/2m is considered "all day"-a distance history shows us suits larger, rugged horses with long easy strides suited to distance, as opposed to a smaller horse that must pick them up and put them down many more times during the marathon of that distance. Make sense?? A smallish one demensional horse makes little sense at that distance. No comment on the WVA Derby?? Wait till the Travers..... :D

Horseman and not a gambler? Well, I'm a gambler and I know a thing or two about horses as well and a student of this game. Can I just say horseman or not, that your plain flat out wrong in your observation.

Your more likely to see a larger horse be a sprinter. His weight and size tear his feet and legs up running and will knock him out for a longer period of time then a smaller horse. It also has to do with musculature. Have you ever seen an NFL linebacker win the Boston Marathon?

Now a small to medium size horse? His weight is an advantage, is easier on his feet and will be bouncing around the stall the morning after a hard race because he's carrying a couple hundred pounds less then a bigger horse. There are certainly examples on either side of this, but in general, size has never been an advantage is going a route of ground unless its something unquantifiable like intimidation.

Now as far as MTB goes, there is nothing about that horse that says he can't get 12f, in fact the exact opposite. His sire, a small horse himself, won the belmont. Add on to that MTB has a very sweet way of moving and really reaches out with his strides, plus he's an good looking individual.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Well conveniently you've glossed over the belmont ride. And fyi it was borel that rode him in the belmont not smith. But are you saying that borel did not move too soon in a 12 furlong race? That is just a built in excuse is what you are saying? Forget wv race, forget canada, and forget your wise cracks. Did borel move too soon, which might have cost mtb the race yes or no?
I'm saying MTB lost to a better horse that day and couldn't even get past Dunkirk who was on the pace all the way for 12F. You can blame Borel all you want (sorry about the Smith slipup) but it was the horse who dictated the move.

From a post race article at belmontstakes.com:

"He kind of took me up there a little earlier than I wanted," Borel said. "I knew the fence wasn't good - it's kind of deep down there - and when I eased him out he took me to them a little earlier than I wanted so I didn't want to take nothing out of him. I let him go on. I didn't take the lead too early, I don't think, because the horses in front kind of stopped to a walk."

Watching the race live, Chip Woolley, the trainer of Mine That Bird, thought Borel might have moved too soon.

"It's hard to say that when you haven't seen the replay," Woolley said. "Calvin had said the horse was kind of fresh down the backside; that's something he hadn't been doing in the past. I was a little concerned with the horse when we went to the holding barn today. He was amped up a little more than he had been in his previous races. Maybe I had him a hair too fresh."

So, Borel and Woolley's excuse of the day was that the horse was too fresh and wanted to run on his way down the backstretch. If Borel had put the brakes on and reigned the horse in then he would have been criticized for that.

Ever really watch this race?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUK5oNbF9sw

Look at MTB's stride going past the finish line the first time. He was out of control. So it's another "Smith rode a bad race" excuse. The excuses just get old after a while. He just gets beat by better horses without a "perect storm" trip. Why is that so hard to accept?

[phatbastard]

i don't get it.......horse wins biggest 3 yo event, and you folks can't wait to trash him......he may not be the best hoss to win the derby, but you can't take it away from him or his connections

move on already

[ghostyapper]

I'm saying MTB lost to a better horse that day and couldn't even get past Dunkirk who was on the pace all the way for 12F. You can blame Borel all you want (sorry about the Smith slipup) but it was the horse who dictated the move.

From a post race article at belmontstakes.com:



So, Borel and Woolley's excuse of the day was that the horse was too fresh and wanted to run on his way down the backstretch. If Borel had put the brakes on and reigned the horse in then he would have been criticized for that.

Ever really watch this race?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUK5oNbF9sw

Look at MTB's stride going past the finish line the first time. He was out of control. So it's another "Smith rode a bad race" excuse. The excuses just get old after a while. He just gets beat by better horses without a "perect storm" trip. Why is that so hard to accept?

Don't believe everything borel says. He was clearly trying to save face for not being familiar at all with the track or the distance setup. Many said before the race that borel's lack of experience might cause him to make an early move and that's what ended up happening. For you to just ignore any kind of trip issues and say he lost to a better horse is flat out wrong.

[ghostyapper]

Horseman and not a gambler? Well, I'm a gambler and I know a thing or two about horses as well and a student of this game. Can I just say horseman or not, that your plain flat out wrong in your observation.

Your more likely to see a larger horse be a sprinter. His weight and size tear his feet and legs up running and will knock him out for a longer period of time then a smaller horse. It also has to do with musculature. Have you ever seen an NFL linebacker win the Boston Marathon?

Now a small to medium size horse? His weight is an advantage, is easier on his feet and will be bouncing around the stall the morning after a hard race because he's carrying a couple hundred pounds less then a bigger horse. There are certainly examples on either side of this, but in general, size has never been an advantage is going a route of ground unless its something unquantifiable like intimidation.

Now as far as MTB goes, there is nothing about that horse that says he can't get 12f, in fact the exact opposite. His sire, a small horse himself, won the belmont. Add on to that MTB has a very sweet way of moving and really reaches out with his strides, plus he's an good looking individual.

Absolutely correct. The "horseman" obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. Smaller horses with more compact strides are more likely to get the distance than the big long striding horses. Birdstone was one of the smallest horses I've ever seen but could run all day long.

[Java Gold@TFT]

For you to just ignore any kind of trip issues and say he lost to a better horse is flat out wrong.
We'll see in another week when he gets to face Summer Bird again. Of course Quality Road will beat them both so the better horse theory will be thrown out again with another laundry list of excuses. And it's not that he lost to a better horse one time this year - he has lostto better horses 6 times this year. Trips and excuses are fine for people who want to justify losing money on a horse. They just don't work for horses that are supposed to be more than they really are because, "Hey, he won the Derby". Just add his name to the list of many others who freaked in one race.

[ghostyapper]

We'll see in another week when he gets to face Summer Bird again. Of course Quality Road will beat them both so the better horse theory will be thrown out again with another laundry list of excuses. And it's not that he lost to a better horse one time this year - he has lostto better horses 6 times this year. Trips and excuses are fine for people who want to justify losing money on a horse. They just don't work for horses that are supposed to be more than they really are because, "Hey, he won the Derby". Just add his name to the list of many others who freaked in one race.

I don't see him running in the travers to be honest. It's too soon after the surgery and it looks like a tough field. Of course the next time the horse does win a big race I'm sure you'll be here saying how he got a perfect trip or it was a weak field, you'll ignore your "just win baby" mantra.

[Java Gold@TFT]

I don't see him running in the travers to be honest. It's too soon after the surgery and it looks like a tough field. Of course the next time the horse does win a big race I'm sure you'll be here saying how he got a perfect trip or it was a weak field, you'll ignore your "just win baby" mantra.
Nope, the next time he wins another big race I will be recovering in the hospital from my recent heart attack. ;)

[Hanover1]

Absolutely correct. The "horseman" obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. Smaller horses with more compact strides are more likely to get the distance than the big long striding horses. Birdstone was one of the smallest horses I've ever seen but could run all day long.
Be sure to waste your cash on him yet again come Travers day Mr horseman handicapper-no owner of mine EVER went to the sale looking for little, compact, smallish, ect.....to run for his money. Have you ever actually asked ANY horseman face to face about this? Only advantage small one has is he is easy on himself, but generally they lack what most great horses have, and that is stunning horseflesh, and more of it.....

[Hanover1]

Nope, the next time he wins another big race I will be recovering in the hospital from my recent heart attack. ;)
Ill send flowers............. :lol:

[Hanover1]

I don't see him running in the travers to be honest. It's too soon after the surgery and it looks like a tough field. Of course the next time the horse does win a big race I'm sure you'll be here saying how he got a perfect trip or it was a weak field, you'll ignore your "just win baby" mantra.
You really DO keep up with things, dont you? Getting brighter by the minute....Last EVERYBODY checked-hes in to go, so if you dont see him, we will all understand................ :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

Can we really say how good a horse MTB is? Wooley's stats don't make me comfortable saying that MTB is as well prepared for graded competition as he might be with a different trainer....


This is the most salient point going forward. Remember Wooley gave credit to MTB's Canadian trainer for the Derby win.

[rastajenk]

A classy move, was it not?

[Hanover1]

This is the most salient point going forward. Remember Wooley gave credit to MTB's Canadian trainer for the Derby win.
I think Wooley was being kind and respectful of previous connections, and should have given Calvin the credit. Despite his numbers (they are available) Calvin can shine on any given day aboard a horse with the right set-up. The little colt has given his all each trip-just wont be enough to be much greater than Lil E Tee. And so far history has shown this....stay tuned.

[FenceBored]

I think Wooley was being kind and respectful of previous connections, and should have given Calvin the credit. Despite his numbers (they are available) Calvin can shine on any given day aboard a horse with the right set-up. The little colt has given his all each trip-just wont be enough to be much greater than Lil E Tee. And so far history has shown this....stay tuned.

What's with the shots at Lil E Tee? 7-4-1 from 13 starts including (3-2-1 in graded company) for $1.4m isn't a bad record.

[Hanover1]

What's with the shots at Lil E Tee? 7-4-1 from 13 starts including (3-2-1 in graded company) for $1.4m isn't a bad record.
Then retired...and he beat the likes of??????????? (another weak crop)

[ghostyapper]

You really DO keep up with things, dont you? Getting brighter by the minute....Last EVERYBODY checked-hes in to go, so if you dont see him, we will all understand................ :lol:

Right cause its not like plans for where to run a horse ever change 9 days from the race :bang:

[Hanover1]

Right cause its not like plans for where to run a horse ever change 9 days from the race :bang:
Except they draw next Wed..(oops) His latest operation was very minor, but I dont expect you to understand-If he ducks Travers the REASON (not excuse) will be because connections know they are beaten.... :D . PA Derby is much softer spot-proving he is just another racehorse-nothing great or better than most. No wonder horseracing is profitable-bettors like you keep dropping the cash at the windows with your wealth of percieved knowledge and horsemanship. :lol: We thank you for your continued support!!!!

[ghostyapper]

Except they draw next Wed..(oops) His latest operation was very minor, but I dont expect you to understand-If he ducks Travers the REASON (not excuse) will be because connections know they are beaten.... :D . PA Derby is much softer spot-proving he is just another racehorse-nothing great or better than most. No wonder horseracing is profitable-bettors like you keep dropping the cash at the windows with your wealth of percieved knowledge and horsemanship. :lol: We thank you for your continued support!!!!

I've never spent a single dime betting on him but I'm sure if I was a loyal bettor of his, I'd still be in the black with his 50-1 derby score.

And what was rachel's excuse for ducking the belmont? She's yet to even commit to the traver's yet.

[Hanover1]

I've never spent a single dime betting on him but I'm sure if I was a loyal bettor of his, I'd still be in the black with his 50-1 derby score.

And what was rachel's excuse for ducking the belmont? She's yet to even commit to the traver's yet.
Wont see her in the Travers IMO, but could be wrong. As far as Belmont goes-she had nothing to prove at that point, having just whipped the boys in Preakness. And she needs to go 1-1/2m right after that because........?? Colts are soft this year-face it......MTB is real soft if his last win was Derby. Chalk last out, and was first Derby winner to ever run in such a soft spot, and was BEATEN yet again....counterfiet.

[ghostyapper]

Wont see her in the Travers IMO, but could be wrong. As far as Belmont goes-she had nothing to prove at that point, having just whipped the boys in Preakness. And she needs to go 1-1/2m right after that because........?? Colts are soft this year-face it......MTB is real soft if his last win was Derby. Chalk last out, and was first Derby winner to ever run in such a soft spot, and was BEATEN yet again....counterfiet.

You gotta love it. MTB wins the derby in dominating fashion and he's just an average horse. Rachel squeaks out a diminishing length victory in the preakness and she's "got nothing left to prove"

Her connections knew she would get beat at 12 furlongs. Heck they've havent' even attempted 10 furlongs yet. Yea she had nothing left to prove :lol:

[ghostyapper]

Wont see her in the Travers IMO, but could be wrong.

And why won't we see her in the travers? Does the same apply for her as MTB, namely that if she ducks its because "her connections know she will get beat"

At least MTB has an excuse (surgery) if he skip the race. Rachel has ZERO

[Java Gold@TFT]

Rachel squeaks out a diminishing length victory in the preakness and she's "got nothing left to prove"


At least her supposed diminishing length was good enough to win the race. Look at the chart again. MTB beat Musket Man by a whopping 1/2 length for 2nd place. So since Musket Man was so close at the end he probably would have beaten both of them if the race was longer. It's a joke argument. The race ends when it ends. IF the Hirsch was run at a Mile and 70 yds then Zenyatta would have lost her first race. Fact is - it wasn't and she didn't. They all run the same distance form the gate and every jockey can see where the finish line is. Either get there first or lose. Musket Man lost too and he was a lot closer to MTB's nose at the end than MTB was to Rachel's. Live with it. The excuses continue.

[ghostyapper]

At least her supposed diminishing length was good enough to win the race. Look at the chart again. MTB beat Musket Man by a whopping 1/2 length for 2nd place. So since Musket Man was so close at the end he probably would have beaten both of them if the race was longer. It's a joke argument. The race ends when it ends. IF the Hirsch was run at a Mile and 70 yds then Zenyatta would have lost her first race. Fact is - it wasn't and she didn't. They all run the same distance form the gate and every jockey can see where the finish line is. Either get there first or lose. Musket Man lost too and he was a lot closer to MTB's nose at the end than MTB was to Rachel's. Live with it. The excuses continue.

Thanks for the rant but the point I was making was that was not a performance that would give a horse "nothing left to prove" against colts. Now please continue ranting...

[ghostyapper]

So since Musket Man was so close at the end he probably would have beaten both of them if the race was longer.

By the way you realize that MTB passed musket man and the margin was increasing, not decreasing right? So the longer the race the further MTB pulls away from him.

[Java Gold@TFT]

By the way you realize that MTB passed musket man and the margin was increasing, not decreasing right? So the longer the race the further MTB pulls away from him.
Good thing no horse has ever come back after being passed in the stretch.

[FenceBored]

Then retired...and he beat the likes of??????????? (another weak crop)

Lil E Tee wasn't retired until late July, 1993. However, between numerous lung infections, bone chip surgery and other leg problems he had only 3 starts after the Preakness. All of them at Oaklawn in 1993. He won an allowance and the Razorback Hcp, then ran 2nd in the Oaklawn Hcp.

Lil E Tee beat Best Pal (Santa Anita Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup) Devil His Due (2 time Suburban), Dr. Devious (Epsom Derby, 2nd Irish Derby), Pistols and Roses (2 time Donn winner), Technology (Haskell). And of course, his main rival Pine Bluff winner of the Preakness, 3rd in the Belmont who was retired in early July '92 with a ligament tear. He also beat Saint Ballado (Arlington Classic) in the Jim Beam, but SB's more remembered as a sire.

So, no Lil E Tee never set the world on fire, but when healthy he was a solid, consistent runner.

[statik27]

Lil E Tee wasn't retired until late July, 1993. However, between numerous lung infections, bone chip surgery and other leg problems he had only 3 starts after the Preakness. All of them at Oaklawn in 1993. He won an allowance and the Razorback Hcp, then ran 2nd in the Oaklawn Hcp.

Lil E Tee beat Best Pal (Santa Anita Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup) Devil His Due (2 time Suburban), Dr. Devious (Epsom Derby, 2nd Irish Derby), Pistols and Roses (2 time Donn winner), Technology (Haskell). And of course, his main rival Pine Bluff winner of the Preakness, 3rd in the Belmont who was retired in early July '92 with a ligament tear. He also beat Saint Ballado (Arlington Classic) in the Jim Beam, but SB's more remembered as a sire.

So, no Lil E Tee never set the world on fire, but when healthy he was a solid, consistent runner.

As a whole that crop was decent, I believe Lure was also in the mix (2 time BC mile champ). The 1992 gotham is still one of the most exciting races I've ever seen.

[Hanover1]

And why won't we see her in the travers? Does the same apply for her as MTB, namely that if she ducks its because "her connections know she will get beat"

At least MTB has an excuse (surgery) if he skip the race. Rachel has ZERO
Have you had your eyes checked lately?? You dont know how the game is played, except what you read in the DRF. An entrapped eppiglotiss operation means nothing, there is ZERO downtime involved, and in fact is designed to IMPROVE the horse-not a leg injury. Winning the Derby at 50-1 tells us that folks like you took the DRF and could not pick a winner in that race that day. Did you cash??? (not). Rachel is off the thread my friend, but since you brought it up, the score remains: Rachel undefeated this year, against colts at that (including MTB...hehehe) and MTB getting 2nd best or WORSE since his improbable (and slow) win in Derby. NICE HORSE.... :lol:

[tribecaagent]

When is the Super Derby?
If MTB doesn't make the Travers, that's probably the most logical spot to run. What's that a gr.II? Would a gr.II be considered a "big race"?

[ghostyapper]

Good thing no horse has ever come back after being passed in the stretch.

I don't know where you're going with this. MTB had just passed Musket Man and the seperation was increasing but it is your contention that if the race had been longer, Musket Man would have come back and passed MTB?

I love it those who say had the race been 10 furlongs, MTB would have passed rachel based on the fact that the distance between the 2 was closing and Rachel was getting leg weary (her own jockey said she almost collapsed) crazy, and thats a crazy opinion to have. Yet you can claim that Musket Man would have won at a longer distance based on NOTHING??

[ghostyapper]

Have you had your eyes checked lately?? You dont know how the game is played, except what you read in the DRF. An entrapped eppiglotiss operation means nothing, there is ZERO downtime involved, and in fact is designed to IMPROVE the horse-not a leg injury. Winning the Derby at 50-1 tells us that folks like you took the DRF and could not pick a winner in that race that day. Did you cash??? (not). Rachel is off the thread my friend, but since you brought it up, the score remains: Rachel undefeated this year, against colts at that (including MTB...hehehe) and MTB getting 2nd best or WORSE since his improbable (and slow) win in Derby. NICE HORSE.... :lol:

Yes my "drf" opinion is real misguided. I guess your simple opinion is much more valid and intelligent and it goes something like this:

Rachel already defeated MTB by a length so clearly she is the better animal and has nothing left to prove. Horse racing is very formful, when 1 horse beats another by a length, that result will continue no matter how many times they race. :D

[Hanover1]

I don't know where you're going with this. MTB had just passed Musket Man and the seperation was increasing but it is your contention that if the race had been longer, Musket Man would have come back and passed MTB?

I love it those who say had the race been 10 furlongs, MTB would have passed rachel based on the fact that the distance between the 2 was closing and Rachel was getting leg weary (her own jockey said she almost collapsed) crazy, and thats a crazy opinion to have. Yet you can claim that Musket Man would have won at a longer distance based on NOTHING??
We finaly agree (to a point) on something. Musket Man was racing with an, at that time, undisclosed injury, or was done for other reasons, soon thereafter. Calvin tried to save face by telling us "she did'nt like the track". when in fact she was plain tired, hence the speculation she cant get 10f against colts.

[statik27]

Yes my "drf" opinion is real misguided. I guess your simple opinion is much more valid and intelligent and it goes something like this:

Rachel already defeated MTB by a length so clearly she is the better animal and has nothing left to prove. Horse racing is very formful, when 1 horse beats another by a length, that result will continue no matter how many times they race. :D

You forgot a horses ability to get a route of ground is measured in hands.

[bisket]

i feel the question of whether rachel was tiring in the stretch at the preakness will be answered by which one of two races rachel turns up next. if she runs in the travers she most likely just didn't care for the pimlico surface. if she runs in the ensign; she probably was tiring in the stretch.
try as you may to belittle the little gelding that could's accomplishments, but you can't take this away from him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmunYEbmmc0&feature=related

[fmolf]

I said it the night of the derby and i'll say it again.Mtb only won the derby because he had the absolute perfect storm of horse racing!...horses take turns beating each other all the time!perhaps as some of the colts mature someone will step up and beat rachel.I hope Jackson runs her again against the boys.

[ghostyapper]

You forgot a horses ability to get a route of ground is measured in hands.

You mean I wasn't the only one that came to that conclusion after reading his post? Apparently I took his words out of context in order to feel better about myself. Guess you're in the same boat. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

[Hanover1]

Yes my "drf" opinion is real misguided. I guess your simple opinion is much more valid and intelligent and it goes something like this:

Rachel already defeated MTB by a length so clearly she is the better animal and has nothing left to prove. Horse racing is very formful, when 1 horse beats another by a length, that result will continue no matter how many times they race. :D
With your insight into this game, you must be a lousy bettor. But if you are in fact fairly good at it, the you sure dont qualify as a horseman. Horsemen make their living off the horses-not the windows. They are smart enough to know that it is a losing proposition. The occasional wager, yes, but to bet and blog about it, and disagree with common sense, all while losing your shirt is just a joke. Smart horsemen let the horse do the talking, while they listen. Its how we train them-they let us know....out of your element in that respect and it irks you to the point of reckless criticism, quoting from racing forms, newspapers and press accounts of how a horse should be-you have zero hands on experience-just guessing and close minded sarcasm is your game-tiring............. :sleeping:

[WinterTriangle]

His latest operation was very minor, but I dont expect you to understand-If he ducks Travers the REASON (not excuse) will be because connections know they are beaten.... :D

Tons of good horsemen wouldn't run a horse after throat surgery in a major taxing stakes race.

Surgery is surgery. tissues take time to heal.

[Grits]

Smart horsemen let the horse do the talking, while they listen. Its how we train them-they let us know

I, too, may be out of my element here, but still, as noted in the other thread, after awhile, "the horse will tell us." Gets kinda old, even, excuse the pun, sorta lame. Especially when the horse is working expertly between each and every race, and eating the bottom out of their feed tub in the late afternoon, early evening.

Hanover, apparently, you're a trainer. I'm certainly not, but what else can one take from the obvious, and the ongoing flow from trainers? Exactly what is it one may be missing here? This particularly applies to Asmussen and Mr.Sportsman.

[Hanover1]

I, too, may be out of my element here, but still, as noted in the other thread, after awhile, "the horse will tell us." Gets kinda old, even, excuse the pun, sorta lame. Especially when the horse is working expertly between each and every race, and eating the bottom out of their feed tub in the late afternoon, early evening.

Hanover, apparently, you're a trainer. I'm certainly not, but what else can one take from the obvious, and the ongoing flow from trainers? Exactly what is it one may be missing here? This particularly applies to Asmussen and Mr.Sportsman.
Its when the horse fails to expertly do things every day that he is talking to us...Hes telling us somethings amiss and we better not expect 100% next trip unless we find out the problem. So the hunt begins....The "flow" you refer to is mostly seen as useless garbage, and understandably so. But keep in mind we are smart enough to know that no matter what we might say about a horse, the can make a liar out of you real quick, so as time has progressed we have developed phrases that serve as CYA and saving face for the owners as well. We all want to put on a good show, but we have to run them in order to see who REALLY looks good. Its a game, a show, and nothing more. Wht do you thing Lucas and Baffet have been so sucessful?? They say the right things, and appeal to the media and the masses. Its part of the show.....they pull the good owners and stock as a result. In this game you are only as good as your last horse.

[Hanover1]

Tons of good horsemen wouldn't run a horse after throat surgery in a major taxing stakes race.

Surgery is surgery. tissues take time to heal.
So Wooleys statements this morning were all lies??? Hes NOT 100%??? NOT skipping across the track?? NOT bucking and playing?? Travers NOT a go?? Gee, I recall him saying the exact opposite. I would scratch myself, but having the trainer speak of his intentions pretty much sums this issue up, unless owners veto. PA Derby is likely spot, or on to the parade. FYI the "surgery" you refer to amounts to a TINY slit.

[WinterTriangle]

So Wooleys statements this morning were all lies??? Hes NOT 100%??? NOT skipping across the track?? NOT bucking and playing?? Travers NOT a go?? Gee, I recall him saying the exact opposite. I would scratch myself, but having the trainer speak of his intentions pretty much sums this issue up, unless owners veto. PA Derby is likely spot, or on to the parade. FYI the "surgery" you refer to amounts to a TINY slit.

I was giving my opinion. Perhaps you missed that subtlety.

Having an opinion doesn't make anyone else into a liar..............oh wait, it does.........but only if you think you're right all the time, and that any other thoughts are invalid and suspect.

Here's another opinion: I have no problem with not running a horse in a major stakes race if they are not 110%. I use 110% not 100 because this is the Travers.

So, any surgery, requiring laying down, administration of anethesia, missing 2 days of training, and the risk of infection afterwards, is enough reason that a horse *might* not be 110%.

And, I have no particular interest in your opinion about this surgery unless 1) you do these procedures for a living, and 2) also provide, for a FEE, your professional opinion in such matters, to high profile persons in the industry.