PDA

View Full Version : A New Idea


stuball
08-18-2009, 06:52 PM
I was just thinking about how our treasury is bare bones..
I think it is about time to look at fundraisers...
We are for the most part handicappers...How about a members only handicapping contest with a percentage of entry fees going into our treasury to fund necessary expenses. I know the officers went to Keeneland on their own dime to discuss our case with management...
How about a $40 entry fee? With a percentage going into the
HANA treasury....say 8 to 10 percent...payoffs to be spread
to allow for more people to get their money back.
Open to suggestions like weekly-monthly etc.
It would encourage membership growth and fund our efforts..
Winners could get their name recognized as best of the
best....Tell me what you think..

Stuball

BillW
08-18-2009, 07:01 PM
I'm not sure about the legality - I'd want to check that first.


I was just thinking about how our treasury is bare bones..
I think it is about time to look at fundraisers...
We are for the most part handicappers...How about a members only handicapping contest with a percentage of entry fees going into our treasury to fund necessary expenses. I know the officers went to Keeneland on their own dime to discuss our case with management...
How about a $40 entry fee? With a percentage going into the
HANA treasury....say 8 to 10 percent...payoffs to be spread
to allow for more people to get their money back.
Open to suggestions like weekly-monthly etc.
It would encourage membership growth and fund our efforts..
Winners could get their name recognized as best of the
best....Tell me what you think..

Stuball

stuball
08-18-2009, 08:11 PM
I don't know about legal Bill..That is for the legal expert as to the hows and whys. I am just an idea man....Idea men are scatterbrains..LOL :jump: :jump: :jump:

BillW
08-18-2009, 08:13 PM
I don't know about legal Bill..That is for the legal expert as to the hows and whys. I am just an idea man....Idea men are scatterbrains..LOL :jump: :jump: :jump:

:D

Keep 'em comin'

highnote
08-19-2009, 02:50 AM
I think it is a great idea. Cary Fotias also made that suggestion to us when HANA was first forming. However, your twist of using some of the proceeds to fund HANA is an excellent idea.

HANA has at least member who is an attorney and might be able to give an opinion or help structure the contest so it is legal.

HANA could also pay out all money and ask that the winners start a new custom -- donate a share of their winnings to HANA. It would not be mandatory -- just a nice gesture on the part of winners.

Horseplayersbet.com
08-19-2009, 07:56 AM
I think it is a real good idea too. It might be a pain to set up though (software to determine winners could be done manually I guess, but getting entry fees on time or being set up to do so may be difficult). And I think the entry fee needs to be reduced a bit, to maybe $20.

Charli125
08-19-2009, 01:13 PM
I seem to recall that their was an easy(and I assume free because the contest was free) handicapping contest platform here on pa.

Jeff P
08-20-2009, 04:52 PM
Why do I get the feeling that my original thread was hijacked by someone promoting a product?Because that's exactly what happened here.

Getting back on topic - Stuball, I REALLY LIKE the idea of a HANA sponsored handicapping contest. And I LOVE the idea of an ongoing series of contests. I think it could be a great way to create interest and drive membership. And if done right, who knows how much it might grow going forward?

To that end we are looking at the legal end right now just to get it out of the way. There are a LOT of rules that have to be followed. First, there's a difference between free contests and contests where entry fees are involved. And free doesn't always mean zero entry fee. Some courts have ruled that if the process asking for information from contestants up front is too extensive (it's a fine line) then you're not running a free contest because time involved on the part of contestants is worth money. Then you have to structure the contest in such a way that it's a competition based on skill and not luck. If too much luck is involved then you can fall into the trap of running a sweepstakes or lottery. Again, it's a fine line that must be walked. And just like ADWs, contests are legal in some states and illegal in others. So depending on state of residence some HANA members might not be able to enter.

All that said, I STILL REALLY LIKE the idea and it's very likely we'll move forward with it. To that end it's also looking like we'll have our own web based contest software - hopefully in time for the Breeder's Cup.

So YES, it's very likely you'll see a series of HANA sponsored contests in the not too distant future... details such as entry fee and prizes - yet to be determined.

BTW, Ken, I like your suggestion about shoes worn by stakes winnners provided they're easily obtainable. There are probably a lot of creative racing related things that could be offered up as prizes.

Keep the good ideas coming.


-jp

.

Hajck Hillstrom
08-21-2009, 01:20 AM
How about a members only handicapping contest with a percentage of entry fees going into our treasury to fund necessary expenses.

Tell me what you think..Count me in.

Jeff P
08-26-2009, 01:08 PM
Would love to hear suggestions related to contest format.

Straight WIN?... WIN PLACE?... Exotics?... Live Bankroll?... Capped Payoffs Y/N?

Let us know.


-jp

.

stuball
08-26-2009, 03:11 PM
I would prefer $2 Win-$2 Place. Example 12 races total--8 designated = $32
4 choice races from designated tracks...$16
Wildcard Win bet $4 on 1 race on any of the above races $4
must be used before your last race bet.
Total bet amount $52 To simplify matters you either bet the money or you lose it.

This is a starter idea. Any suggestions are welcome..
We would need the proper software to handle the choices.

Stuball :jump: :jump:

BillW
08-26-2009, 03:50 PM
Standard contest formats have seemed to gravitate to WP with a cap of 20-1 Win and 10-1 Place.

I like the Gold Coast twist of the first 10% at track odds and capping the last 90% of each bet. (i.e. with a $20 W/P format - $2 @ track odds and $18 capped)

Horseplayersbet.com
08-26-2009, 05:17 PM
Standard contest formats have seemed to gravitate to WP with a cap of 20-1 Win and 10-1 Place.

I like the Gold Coast twist of the first 10% at track odds and capping the last 90% of each bet. (i.e. with a $20 W/P format - $2 @ track odds and $18 capped)
Sounds like unneeded extra math to me.

Space Monkey
08-26-2009, 08:10 PM
Great idea, count me in. $25 entry fee should be fine although I'm not opposed to $40 or $50. The higher the entry fee you can get, the more $ for prizes and HANA.

I'm sure you will get 100 different suggestions for the format from 100 different players, but as I have never entered any handicapping contest, all i can say is that picking the winner is the true test of a handicapper :ThmbUp:

Warren Henry
08-26-2009, 10:51 PM
Potential software nightmare, believe me, I know.

But, how about a different emphasis every time. One time could be about number of winners/consistency. Another about ROI/quality of winners. Another be a pick a longshot contest. Or how about one which is measured on best paying exacta or tri or super.

Maybe a maidens only contest or a turf only contest, or a rubber track only, or a bottom level claimer contest etc. Mix it up and have something for everyone at some point. The more formats, the more contests you can run.

Run a contest every week or every month. Hype them to the media. Use the contests as a draw to join HANA (restricted to members only) as well as a fundraiser for HANA.

How about team contests? Maybe East vs West? Or even Libs vs Cons :lol:

How about old folks against youngsters or men against women. Or old men against young women?

How about a freezeout with a set schedule of races that MUST be played. Miss and you are out. Last one standing wins

I suppose we would need a contest CZAR?

DeanT
08-27-2009, 11:02 AM
Or old men against young women?


I think that would be 10,000 of us against............. Theresia :D

Handicapping contests are always so longshot based that I have been in several discussions with players on how to make them more fair and fun. I wonder if one where the ML is used would be better - eg, you make a bet based on the ML of the horse with a set bankroll, to make $100 per bet. If you choose a 2-1 horse you have to make a $33 bet, and have $67 left, a 10-1 ML horse would cost $10 and you would have $90 left, and so on.

I wonder if that would still be longshot biased. I dont think so.

Anyway, slightly more complex and maybe not fun at all. I do wonder though if anyone have some ideas on how to make tournies better and more fun. Since it is a horseplayer tourney, by horseplayers, it should incorporate something new, and outside the box a little bit, imo.

Your ideas are very fun Warren. Well done.

miesque
08-27-2009, 12:51 PM
I think that would be 10,000 of us against............. Theresia :D




What else is new, thats pretty much the status quo for me. :lol:

Horseplayersbet.com
08-27-2009, 01:47 PM
This just came to me. Have a contest, $2 win place format. But we calculate the winning odds based on if the track had a 10% takeout and no breakage.

I'm not kidding.

Warren Henry
08-27-2009, 02:12 PM
I think that would be 10,000 of us against............. Theresia :D



Based on what I have seen so far, that would not be a fair contest. She would win easily.

Bobzilla
08-27-2009, 03:24 PM
One of the best suggestions I'm aware of was made by an occasional poster here at PA, TEJAS KIDD, who brought up an alternative to the $2W $2P for the NHC. TK, probably one of the most experienced tournament players in the country, made this recommendation to the NTRA and it was within the context of the annual two day event in Las Vegas every January which consists of 15 races both days of which 8 are mandatory and 7 are optional.

It works by having 3 sets of 5 wagers each. The first set is for $10 Win bets with a 5/1 cap. The second set is for $5 Win bets with an 11/1 cap. The third set is for $2 Win bets with a 29/1 cap. The most anyone could make with any bet would be $60. The beauty of this format is that it allows the player to weigh his/her wagers based on their degree of confidence in the bet. If a player loves a horse who is 9/2 and the player has fair value at 5/2 that player can use one of his/her 5 allotted $10 bets to get back $55 on the 9/2 horse. This would be especially useful if it's the end of the day and the player would like to have that big hit to climb the leaderboard but accomplishing this with a horse the player actually loves and at an overlaid price. It beats taking blind stabs at 29/1 horses who you may or may not be able to make a case for. If you do happen to like a 29/1 horse you can still save one of your 5 allotted $2 Win bets for it.

Seems like a good format because strategy is very much in play. Furthermore the set of plays that the bet was chosen from reflects the strength of opinion that the player actually had for the horse's chances. Wouldn't it be nice to hit a "Capper" with a 5/1 horse who you backed with conviction?

For the HANA tournament maybe we could have 15 races from 3 or 4 tracks with 8 mandatory races selected by Jeff P , Ross Gallo and Cary Fotias, and it would be nice if all three of America's racing surface types were represented as to test the player's skills on all three (i.e. dirt, grass, synthetic).

Again, I want to give credit to TEJAS KIDD for making this suggestion to the NTRA. I think this would be an improvement over the current $2W $2P format.

DeanT
08-27-2009, 04:59 PM
Well done. I like that.:ThmbUp:

rokitman
09-02-2009, 01:10 AM
Illegal.

highnote
09-02-2009, 01:21 AM
What is illegal about it?

PaceAdvantage
09-02-2009, 05:34 AM
What is illegal about it?If entry fees are collected, unless ALL such fees and money is returned to the players in the form of prize money, it violates various federal and/or state lottery laws.

And even if all money is returned to the players, there's probably lots of hoops you'd have to jump through to make sure you don't get busted for running this kind of thing.

highnote
09-02-2009, 09:46 AM
If entry fees are collected, unless ALL such fees and money is returned to the players in the form of prize money, it violates various federal and/or state lottery laws.

And even if all money is returned to the players, there's probably lots of hoops you'd have to jump through to make sure you don't get busted for running this kind of thing.

Think of a drag race at your local speedway. The drivers pay an entry fee. If they win they get a trophy and some cash. Drag racing is certainly a contest of skill and doesn't violate any laws that I know of.

There must be hundreds of similar examples a handicapping contest could be modeled after.

PaceAdvantage
09-02-2009, 12:14 PM
Think of a drag race at your local speedway. The drivers pay an entry fee. If they win they get a trophy and some cash. Drag racing is certainly a contest of skill and doesn't violate any laws that I know of.

There must be hundreds of similar examples a handicapping contest could be modeled after.Tell it to the judge...:lol:

Seriously though, lottery and sweepstakes laws make it very difficult to run any sort of "handicapping contest" where ANY portion of the entry fee goes to the "house."

rokitman
09-09-2009, 04:26 PM
What is illegal about it?
What PA said. You cannot be "the house." I talked with this (http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com/) guy about something very similar some time ago.

rokitman
09-09-2009, 05:12 PM
Think of a drag race at your local speedway. The drivers pay an entry fee. If they win they get a trophy and some cash. Drag racing is certainly a contest of skill and doesn't violate any laws that I know of.

There must be hundreds of similar examples a handicapping contest could be modeled after.
Run a 3 number fundraising lottery and use the last whole-dollar numbers from the total W/P/S pools at Belmont to determine today's winning number. You can make some adjustments, if necessary, Dutch. :cool:

Gorrex
09-09-2009, 05:20 PM
Legality varies from state to state. If it is held online then the laws will be from whichever state the servers reside in.

MANY states it is perfectly legal. Some it needs special approval. Some its completely illegal as it would be seen as illegal gambling. By charging entry that person is in essence gambling they will be the best handicapper.

Normally contests are one of two things:

Fake money wagering - Only the end prize is won.

Real money wagering - Each bet is paid according to pari-mutuels rules. The first is much easier to deal with, the second you would have to host it through a track/otb/adw or have your own contracts with the tracks. If you did it on your own with real money you would need pari-mutuel licensing from the host state.

You could also book the wagers as I believe was the idea in other posts. This is almost always without question illegal in the US. It is possible to pull off legally, but very very tricky.

highnote
09-09-2009, 05:42 PM
Seriously though, lottery and sweepstakes laws make it very difficult to run any sort of "handicapping contest" where ANY portion of the entry fee goes to the "house."


Difficult perhaps, but not impossible. The key is to figure out a way to do it that does not violate the law.