NYRA hard at work on Rachel/Zenyatta race

[Grits]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106455.html

Belmont Park would be the best choice of tracks in the country for these two to meet. Though, it puzzles me, right now, as to who would race against these two. Still, hope is a fine thing.

Belmont has the held the greatest, most storied place in history in American thoroughbred racing. And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga, DelMar, Santa Anita, Churchill, Keeneland, Sam Houston, or anywhere else in the country.

I hope we get to see this come to pass.

[Java Gold@TFT]

[QUOTE=Grits]http://www.drf.com/news/article/106455.html

Belmont has the held the greatest, most storied place in history in American thoroughbred racing. And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga, DelMar, Santa Anita, Churchill, Keeneland, Sam Houston, or anywhere else in the country.
QUOTE]
Grits, you cannot even be close to serious about this statement. I go to Belmont for a lot of their BIG days and the crowd is still squat compared to Saratoga. Belmont can get 100,000 when there is atriple crown on the line but have you seen the attendence in the last few years for showcase day or the JCGC day? It's pathetic. Well under 30,000 next to a city of 8 million. Saratoga's listed attendence for a giveaway day on Sunday was over 50,000 and yes I know it was aided by spinners for t-shirts but the Whitney crowd was legitimate. Both Point Given and Funny Cide generated REAL crowds of over 70,000. Belmont can't even do that on a BC day. If they get the chance to put Rachel and Zenyatta in the gate for the Beldame they will not get 30,000 people at the track. Just the facts Jack. Watch the attendence at Saratoga for August 29th. Still has the potential to draw the Fla Derby, KY Derby, Preakness and Belmont winners. After a life at Saratoga - if that should happen 75,000 will show up without a problem. Belmont couldn't even come close to that figure except for one day every few years.

[FenceBored]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106455.html

Belmont Park would be the best choice of tracks in the country for these two to meet. Though, it puzzles me, right now, as to who would race against these two. Still, hope is a fine thing.

Belmont has the held the greatest, most storied place in history in American thoroughbred racing. And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga, DelMar, Santa Anita, Churchill, Keeneland, Sam Houston, or anywhere else in the country.

I hope we get to see this come to pass.

The question is, are Moss and Shirreffs seriously considering this, or are they only sayingthat they're considering it, so as not to appear to be the obstinate ones?

[slew101]

I'd say they are just playing the media here. I don't think they'll ever consider hooking RA in a 1-turn race at Belmont. They need to see a 2-turn race before they would consider it, IMO.

Maybe Churchill can card a race in the fall for the two of them. Zenyatta was going to run there in the spring before the track came up sloppy. You might have a better chance to lure a few more horses for a 2-turn race.

The question is, are Moss and Shirreffs seriously considering this, or are they only sayingthat they're considering it, so as not to appear to be the obstinate ones?

[Grits]

Java, I hesitate to take the thread off topic, still to reply . . . . you're at Saratoga. You live nearby. I spend time, each year, at both. Though, due to my son's recent illness, I'm not in Saratoga this year.

Saratoga Springs has long been a playground. A vacation destination for horseplayers, and for families, this is obvious in the backyard each year, in the clubhouse, and in the grandstand.

Saratoga is a state of mind.

I'm not going on numbers, attendance, churn or any of that. Forget all of it for the moment. I'm going on the historical standpoint, and to me Belmont Park is the grand dame of Thoroughbred racing. It has always been.

Saratoga is upstate, and of course, the oldest sporting venue in the U.S., and it has quite a long history. Its a small piece of paradise tucked away, a niche on the road to Mecca. People will not quickly recall who won the Adirondack, the Schuylerville, or the Alabama. Instead, they are more apt to remember the Travers winner, along with the Belmont winner, the JCGC winner and so on.

Yes, it may be because of the 1 1/2 mile, final Triple Crown race held each year in June, its overrated to some, but not to me. Its sprawling and grand in its magnitude, and nothing in racing appeals to me more than being there on days that its packed, or even on days one could play flag football on the ground floor.

I love both, and they are entirely different in their respective ways.

One should note, as well, Saratoga has nothing within 200 miles to compete with. (Unless one figures Lake George or Niagra Falls.) Belmont Park has every form of entertainment on earth in that city of 8 or 9 million that you speak of. Again, I enjoy, greatly, the luxury of being able to spend time at each.

[46zilzal]

In a field of horses Zenyatta has a good chance.

In a match, forget it: Rachel's rider goes out front, slows it down, COMMANDS whatever position on the track that is advantageous, plays around the whole way and then makes ONE late move with a lot left in the tank.

Same as EVERY match race this century and anytime you want to see it again, find the Typecast/Convenience race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4F8pDHCErw


OR the match race within a race to see Laffit TOY with Shoe on Spectacular Bid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=berN2tnAlkk

[ghostyapper]

I can see rachel's connections wanting this but it's pretty tough to ask rachel's connections to ship east for a historic showdown when it's only supposed to be a prep for the bc.

[theguarantee]

Niagara Falls is probably a solid 5 hours away from Saratoga on the thruway. Upstate NY and Western NY always get thrown into the same category for some reason, but Niagara Falls is in no way at all close to Saratoga, in fact Belmont Park and Saratoga Springs are much closer to each other, not much more than 3 hours (course it may take longer if you make the poor decision to travel through the city at peak hours).

[theguarantee]

Same as EVERY match race this century and anytime you want to see it again, find the Typecast/Convenience race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4F8pDHCErw




But this race was won by a nose and could've easily went the other way?

[Java Gold@TFT]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106455.html

Belmont has the held the greatest, most storied place in history in American thoroughbred racing. And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga, DelMar, Santa Anita, Churchill, Keeneland, Sam Houston, or anywhere else in the country.

I hope we get to see this come to pass.
Grits, no offense intended. I go to Belmont a few times each year. It's just that you typed "And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga". That is what I meant by being a joke. If Zenyatta would have come for the Personal Ensign and Rachel was enterred I have absolutely no doubt that 50,000-60,000 people would show up on a Sunday. Belmont has history. It has had great crowds in the past. It's just being honest that that doesn't happen anymore. Let Zenyatta come to the Woodward and there would be another 60,000 even thought hings slow down after the Travers. What were the last 3 years attendences at the JCGC with HOY Curlin running in two of them? 20,000 maybe? Rachel couldn't even get 20,000 in the seats for Mother Goose day with all of the advertising and free admissions. If she gets an announced work on the main track she might get at least as many at 6AM. I remember seeing Cigar's last work before the Pac Classic. Conservative estimates had the crowd between 8,000 and 10,000 people at 6AM. Belmont will never sniff those numbers again. It's not that the racing is bad or the history isn't there - it's just that times have changed and other than one day each year it is a big empty dinosaur. That won't stop me from going back and it's not a refelction on the aura of Saratoga. It's just a sign of the times in NY racing.

[MickJ26]

Way to go, NYRA.
Be pro-active and get Madison Avenue involved.
Make sure bin Suroor gets included.
Git 'er done.

[Stevie Belmont]

Belmont Park would be the choice venue IMO if they can get it done...

[Steve R]

If Rachael Alexandra won a one-turn route race over Zenyatta at Belmont it would raise the same doubts as Zenyatta defeating Rachel Alexandra on the rubber at Santa Anita. There is no solution unless they race against each other at least twice, once on dirt and once on an AWS, but definitely around two turns. Even then, one of the two would have to win both to prove anything.

[slew101]

The Personal Ensign would be the perfect spot for this race. Saratoga, huge crowd, legendary filly the race is named after.

Perfect space for RA, but Zenyatta's people might say too close to her prior race.

[QUOTE=Java Gold@TFT]If Zenyatta would have come for the Personal Ensign and Rachel was enterred I have absolutely no doubt that 50,000-60,000 people would show up on a Sunday.

[FenceBored]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106455.html

Belmont Park would be the best choice of tracks in the country for these two to meet. Though, it puzzles me, right now, as to who would race against these two. Still, hope is a fine thing.

Belmont has the held the greatest, most storied place in history in American thoroughbred racing. And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga, DelMar, Santa Anita, Churchill, Keeneland, Sam Houston, or anywhere else in the country.

I hope we get to see this come to pass.


Belmont - wonderfully historic track, fine location for this matchup, BUT ...

Keeneland (which due to Polytrack would never be considered) would whomp any potential Belmont attendance for this matchup except for 2 words: Fire Marshal.

Keeneland's avg. daily attendance for its Spring meet was 15,225. Could Belmont's figures match that using just Saturday and Sunday?

[SoCalCircuit]

I think they should do the right thing and try to get this race at Penn National

[46zilzal]

But this race was won by a nose and could've easily went the other way?
I have the photo of this race and a neck was more like it. IF they raced every week for a month the result would be the same or very very close to it: the front runner CONTROLS THE SHOW from the outset.

[cj]

Just to keep things in perspective, of course the horse with more speed has an advantage. Horses have, however, won match races from behind. This is the last one I remember:

http://horseracing.about.com/library/weekly/aa090703a.htm

[cj]

Here is another:

http://www.ak-sar-ben.com/matchrace.html

[46zilzal]

Just to keep things in perspective, of course the horse with more speed has an advantage. Horses have, however, won match races from behind. This is the last one I remember:

http://horseracing.about.com/library/weekly/aa090703a.htm
MAJOR exception and not the rule

[46zilzal]

Here is another:

http://www.ak-sar-ben.com/matchrace.html
A filly out front beaten by a male late....? that one was biased from the start

[OTM Al]

Grits, no offense intended. I go to Belmont a few times each year. It's just that you typed "And by far, more people would attend there than at Saratoga". That is what I meant by being a joke. If Zenyatta would have come for the Personal Ensign and Rachel was enterred I have absolutely no doubt that 50,000-60,000 people would show up on a Sunday. Belmont has history. It has had great crowds in the past. It's just being honest that that doesn't happen anymore. Let Zenyatta come to the Woodward and there would be another 60,000 even thought hings slow down after the Travers. What were the last 3 years attendences at the JCGC with HOY Curlin running in two of them? 20,000 maybe? Rachel couldn't even get 20,000 in the seats for Mother Goose day with all of the advertising and free admissions. If she gets an announced work on the main track she might get at least as many at 6AM. I remember seeing Cigar's last work before the Pac Classic. Conservative estimates had the crowd between 8,000 and 10,000 people at 6AM. Belmont will never sniff those numbers again. It's not that the racing is bad or the history isn't there - it's just that times have changed and other than one day each year it is a big empty dinosaur. That won't stop me from going back and it's not a refelction on the aura of Saratoga. It's just a sign of the times in NY racing.

Curlin's biggest problem was he won the wrong race in his TC year and never captured the public. Rachel would be a far far more of a draw than he ever was if such a race was going off. No, you likely wouldn't get a Saratoga crowd, but it's not like there would be 30,000 in the stands there either, especially since they can't hold it....

[joanied]

I think there is no use arguing about Belmont vs Saratoga for this race....IF is happens at all... RA & Z are not gonna meet before the BC...if they do, I'll eat my computer:eek: ...so I think that takes Saratoga out of the picture...if NYRA can pull this off...I'll be the first to congratulate them for a job well done... have we heard anything from either camp about this proposal?

If it comes to be...Grits...I also hope it's at Belmont...with 60,000 fans!!
But, can I toss in Monmouth Park as a good track...seems to me the Joisy fans are great...

IMO...'if they build it, they will come"...regardless of what track:)

[rokitman]

It's after the BC, but, otherwise...Oaklawn.

[Java Gold@TFT]

The Clark at Churchill or the new race at Fair Grounds on Dec 13th.

[Java Gold@TFT]

I think there is no use arguing about Belmont vs Saratoga for this race....IF is happens at all... RA & Z are not gonna meet before the BC...if they do, I'll eat my computer:eek: ...so I think that takes Saratoga out of the picture...if NYRA can pull this off...I'll be the first to congratulate them for a job well done... have we heard anything from either camp about this proposal?

If it comes to be...Grits...I also hope it's at Belmont...with 60,000 fans!!
But, can I toss in Monmouth Park as a good track...seems to me the Joisy fans are great...

IMO...'if they build it, they will come"...regardless of what track:)
When's the last time there were 60,000 people at Belmont that wasn't Belmont stakes day or a BC Day? If they get them to come for the Beldame I will be there but I doubt I will have a problem finding a place to watch the race due to the crowd.

[The Hawk]

You can't compare Keeneland and Belmont, for the obvious reason: Belmont's a dump, Keeneland's beautiful.

Oh, and the polytrack.

Anyway, they need to have this match-up at Churchill, at night, primetime, on a network. They'll get 60,000 (they got 30,000 on random Friday nights in the summer), it will be an event, and it will show well on tv.

All of that aside, kudos to NYRA for making a strong effort.

[joanied]

When's the last time there were 60,000 people at Belmont that wasn't Belmont stakes day or a BC Day? If they get them to come for the Beldame I will be there but I doubt I will have a problem finding a place to watch the race due to the crowd.

Guess I'm being all warm & fuzzy again ;)

[classhandicapper]

Just to keep things in perspective, of course the horse with more speed has an advantage. Horses have, however, won match races from behind. This is the last one I remember:

http://horseracing.about.com/library/weekly/aa090703a.htm

I'm not sure this angle is as strong as is commonly believed.

IMO it is also more likely than not that the superior overall horse also has more early speed. So it would naturally wind up on the lead way more often. I don't know the exact probabilities on that, but it wouldn't shock me if the best horse winds up on the lead more than 75% of the time.

So I suspect that the actual pace and positional advantage of being on the lead accounts for some of the victories, but not as many of them as a casual glance might lead one to believe. It's just that the better horse outruns the weaker one right from the start most of the time and people attribute the victory to being on the lead.

I think getting the lead can probably separates two horses of very similar ability. But if the stalker is superior, I think it will often get up.

But that's just my theory and it's based on nothing. :lol:

[Java Gold@TFT]

Guess I'm being all warm & fuzzy again ;)
You just keep being that way. I appreciate the extra smile sometimes when you do get warm and fuzzy. :)

[cj]

I'm not sure this angle is as strong as is commonly believed.

IMO it is also more likely than not that the superior overall horse also has more early speed. So it would naturally wind up on the lead way more often. I don't know the exact probabilities on that, but it wouldn't shock me if the best horse winds up on the lead more than 75% of the time.

So I suspect that the actual pace and positional advantage of being on the lead accounts for some of the victories, but not as many of them as a casual glance might lead one to believe. It's just that the better horse outruns the weaker one right from the start most of the time and people attribute the victory to being on the lead.

I think getting the lead can probably separates two horses of very similar ability. But if the stalker is superior, I think it will often get up.

But that's just my theory and it's based on nothing. :lol:

I'll keep it short...I agree 100%.

[Old Yeller]

Never going to happen, Zennatta is Breeders Cup bound. She won't leave the West Coast until she is done with their main gold. After that I think her people would go for a showdown. Frankly I hope they do meet, and it 's a dead heat ! Love them both !

[Hanover1]

Aint gonna happen comes to mind......duckin each other makes them both look good, as long as both camps choose each outing wisely. Easy for both camps to quietly agree to keep win streaks going, and if one falters it wont be at the expense of the other-what goes around comes around........

[46zilzal]

You can't compare Keeneland and Belmont, for the obvious reason: Belmont's a dump, Keeneland's beautiful.


Since when is the Big Sandy a dump?? Has some of the best races of the year over a track that usually plays very fair.TOP SHAPE turf course(S) plural too

[Imriledup]

In a field of horses Zenyatta has a good chance.

In a match, forget it: Rachel's rider goes out front, slows it down, COMMANDS whatever position on the track that is advantageous, plays around the whole way and then makes ONE late move with a lot left in the tank.

Same as EVERY match race this century and anytime you want to see it again, find the Typecast/Convenience race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4F8pDHCErw


OR the match race within a race to see Laffit TOY with Shoe on Spectacular Bid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=berN2tnAlkk

If what you say is true, that in a match race 'forget it' doesn't mean that Rachel is just the far superior horse and all this talk of these two 'super females' meeting up would be the equivalent of the New England Patriots meeting the USC Trojans?

If Zenyatta needs 'help' to beat Rachel, doesn't that mean that Rachel is just much better?

Also, if Zenyatta theoretically gets help to Beat rachel, what does that really mean anyway? Should Shireffs put a rabbit in the match race and make it a 3 horse field so that Zenyatta would have a shot?

I think the opposite is true of what you say. A match race would be the only real true test to determine who's the better runner. Why would we want to see Zenyatta get 'help' to see if she can beat rachel? Wouldn't you want to see who was truly the best without any interference from anyone else?

If Zenyatta needs help to win, that means she really isn't the better horse.

[statik27]

If what you say is true, that in a match race 'forget it' doesn't mean that Rachel is just the far superior horse and all this talk of these two 'super females' meeting up would be the equivalent of the New England Patriots meeting the USC Trojans?

If Zenyatta needs 'help' to beat Rachel, doesn't that mean that Rachel is just much better?

Also, if Zenyatta theoretically gets help to Beat rachel, what does that really mean anyway? Should Shireffs put a rabbit in the match race and make it a 3 horse field so that Zenyatta would have a shot?

I think the opposite is true of what you say. A match race would be the only real true test to determine who's the better runner. Why would we want to see Zenyatta get 'help' to see if she can beat rachel? Wouldn't you want to see who was truly the best without any interference from anyone else?

If Zenyatta needs help to win, that means she really isn't the better horse.

So every time a loose on the lead speed horse wins a race, they're clearly the superior animal? Pace makes the race, but it hardly tells you who is the better animal.

Now I for one like the idea of a race with a field. RA is no need the lead type, she can sit off right off a legit pace and kick away and Zenyatta can try and catch her. I don't see the problem with that.

[joanied]

You just keep being that way. I appreciate the extra smile sometimes when you do get warm and fuzzy. :)

Oh, prob'ly will...kinda set in my ;) ways...and as long as it brings a smile:) to your face...can't be all bad:jump:

[joanied]

Originally Posted by The Hawk
You can't compare Keeneland and Belmont, for the obvious reason: Belmont's a dump, Keeneland's beautiful.



Since when is the Big Sandy a dump?? Has some of the best races of the year over a track that usually plays very fair.TOP SHAPE turf course(S) plural too



Hey Hawk... please, do tell...what makes you say Belmont is a "dump" :confused: ...
Zil thinks you are meaning the races there...I think you mean the Grandstand and the grounds...
Belmont Park was my 'home' for many years...so your remark hit a nerve...hope you can give both myself & Zil an explanation... 'cause them thar's fightin' words, myman :)