Daniel Hannan says:

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm sure many of you are familiar with this Bristish politician....here's what he had to say about America's (Obama's) plans to nationalize health care.

Listen, our system, our NHS came out of a peculiar time, we were basically under full mobilization when we invented this, right? It was.
It's Word War II, 1944. So, it was a time when we had food rationing, when everything had been nationalized, when he had hugely high taxes, you know, because everything had been conscripted into the war.
That was the product — that was the thinking that led to the state health care system.

I find it incredible that a free people living in a country dedicated and founded in the cause of independence and freedom can seriously be thinking about adopting such a system in peacetime and massively expanding the role of the state when there's no need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Hannan

[ArlJim78]

Of course it is quite insane, but that is what has become of this nation.
People that have no experience and couldn't run a lemonade stand much less a used car program or a national health plan, are going to turn us upside down in a crazy expensive quest for utopia.

[boxcar]

Of course it is quite insane, but that is what has become of this nation.
People that have no experience and couldn't run a lemonade stand much less a used car program or a national health plan, are going to turn us upside down in a crazy expensive quest for utopia.

But it even gets worse: According to BO, getting this [very pricey] "public option" passed is one of the "pillars" -- one of the surefire ways to get this economy back on the fast track? UNREAL! More tax and spend us into oblivion -- which will also lead us right into prosperity. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

[NJ Stinks]

This guy is a member of the Conservative party and he was born in 1971.

He is wrong about the date NHS started. It started in 1948 when Brits still really felt compelled to take care of each other after they stood together on the battlefield and at home for so long in the war.

And this guy is an expert on why things happened 23 years before he was born? :rolleyes:

Great source. :ThmbDown:

[JustRalph]

This guy is a member of the Conservative party and he was born in 1971.

He is wrong about the date NHS started. It started in 1948 when Brits still really felt compelled to take care of each other after they stood together on the battlefield and at home for so long in the war.

And this guy is an expert on why things happened 23 years before he was born? :rolleyes:

Great source. :ThmbDown:

I suppose Dr. Leakey didn't know anything about old bones and the origins of man either..............after all it all occurred a few million years before he was born

[cj's dad]

This guy is a member of the Conservative party and he was born in 1971.

He is wrong about the date NHS started. It started in 1948 when Brits still really felt compelled to take care of each other after they stood together on the battlefield and at home for so long in the war.

And this guy is an expert on why things happened 23 years before he was born? :rolleyes:

Great source. :ThmbDown:


And I was born around the time that Social Security was brought about as a supplement to retirement and was then and still is administered by the gov'ment.

The money allocated was used as a live money pool by our elected officials for every pet project (read "pork") that came up in their district. The funds were completely mismanaged by the feds and continue to be misused. SS is in dire striaghts due to the Feds. And you want these people to manage your health care ???

Not being born in a particular era does not preclude one from knowing what happened during that time frame and commenting on same.

[NJ Stinks]

SS is in dire striaghts due to the Feds. And you want these people to manage your health care ???



Yeah, SS is in dire straits if nothing is done before 2042. :rolleyes: Everything should be in such dire straits.

It's a given that the Labour party was in power when the NHS started in 1948. Just as it's a given that Social Security and Medicare were started by Democrats. If Hannan praised the NHS it would be newsworthy. What PA deemed so fantastic that he put it in red, is not. Round up the ususal suspects and all that.... :sleeping:

[46zilzal]

Researchers from Cambridge Hospital/Harvard Medical School, Harvard Law School and Ohio University surveyed a national random sample of 2,314 bankruptcy filers in 2007. They reviewed court records and interviewed 1,032 of the filers who indicated their bankruptcy was medical-related based on their stated reasons for filing, income loss due to illness and the magnitude of their medical debts.

Related findings:

* In 2007, an American family filed for bankruptcy following an illness every 90 seconds; three-quarters of them were insured.
* Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three-quarters had health insurance.
* The odds that a bankruptcy had a medical cause were 2.38 fold higher in 2007 than in 2001.
* Many families with continuous coverage found themselves under-insured, responsible for thousands of dollars in out-of-pocket costs.
* Out-of-pocket medical costs averaged $17,943 for all medically bankrupt families: $26,971 for uninsured patients; $17,749 for those with private insurance at the outset; $14,633 for those with Medicaid; $12,021 for those with Medicare; and $6,545 for those with VA/military coverage.

My father in law is currently gravely ill in the ICU in Toronto. Will his care BANKRUPT the family?

No because everyone is covered here.

[LottaKash]

It is about "TOTAL CONTROL", and that is almost here....:eek:....But first, there must be "social and economic failure" and then "chaos and confusion"...

Are you "ready" to accept this, or will you go down "swingin'" ?

And for "you" lefites, liberals, and traitors, you will be just "as" affected, and you are not going to like what you have been clamoring for, for so long....

best,

[NJ Stinks]

It is about "TOTAL CONTROL", and that is almost here....:eek:....But first, there must be "social and economic failure" and then "chaos and confusion"...

Are you "ready" to accept this, or will you go down "swingin'" ?

best,

You already went down swinging last November. Obama ran on a platform that included health care reform. Not only did he win big but so did fellow Democrats in both the House and the Senate. The majority has spoken.

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. Judging by the behavior at these town hall meetings, etc., the answer is a resounding no.

[ArlJim78]

You already went down swinging last November. Obama ran on a platform that included health care reform. Not only did he win big but so did fellow Democrats in both the House and the Senate. The majority has spoken.

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. Judging by the behavior at these town hall meetings, etc., the answer is a resounding no.
the platform did not include specifics which are only now being fleshed out. as this process moves forward, support is dropping by the hour and a MAJORITY (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls _to_new_low) is not in favor of this approach, 53 to 42.

[LottaKash]

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. .

When we lose, we "all" lose....you will soon see.....

Back in the 30"s, in Germany, people just like you wildly cheered for a certain someone, thinking that this will be good for us.....Well, millions of dead-people later, they re-thought the whole thing over, only it was too late....get it ?

best,

[ezrabrooks]

This guy is a member of the Conservative party and he was born in 1971.

He is wrong about the date NHS started. It started in 1948 when Brits still really felt compelled to take care of each other after they stood together on the battlefield and at home for so long in the war.

And this guy is an expert on why things happened 23 years before he was born? :rolleyes:

Great source. :ThmbDown:

Can't you read the quote....no where did he say that the NHS started before 1948... The events of the War lead to the creation of the NHS...

[NJ Stinks]

the platform did not include specifics which are only now being fleshed out. as this process moves forward, support is dropping by the hour and a MAJORITY (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls _to_new_low) is not in favor of this approach, 53 to 42.

Here's Obama's health plan proposals when he was campaigning before the election. It looks pretty familiar and specific to me.

Plan for a Healthy America

Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Plan

On health care reform, the American people are too often offered two extremes - government-run health care with higher taxes or letting the insurance companies operate without rules. Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe both of these extremes are wrong, and that’s why they’ve proposed a plan that strengthens employer coverage, makes insurance companies accountable and ensures patient choice of doctor and care without government interference.

The Obama-Biden plan provides affordable, accessible health care for all Americans, builds on the existing health care system, and uses existing providers, doctors and plans to implement the plan. Under the Obama-Biden plan, patients will be able to make health care decisions with their doctors, instead of being blocked by insurance company bureaucrats.

Under the plan, if you like your current health insurance, nothing changes, except your costs will go down by as much as $2,500 per year.



If you don’t have health insurance, you will have a choice of new, affordable health insurance options.

Make Health Insurance Work for People and Businesses - Not Just Insurance and Drug Companies.





Require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions so all Americans regardless of their health status or history can get comprehensive benefits at fair and stable premiums.
Create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to help small businesses provide affordable health insurance to their employees.
Lower costs for businesses by covering a portion of the catastrophic health costs they pay in return for lower premiums for employees.
Prevent insurers from overcharging doctors for their malpractice insurance and invest in proven strategies to reduce preventable medical errors.
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.
Establish a National Health Insurance Exchange with a range of private insurance options as well as a new public plan based on benefits available to members of Congress that will allow individuals and small businesses to buy affordable health coverage.
Ensure everyone who needs it will receive a tax credit for their premiums.
Reduce Costs and Save a Typical American Family up to $2,500 as reforms phase in:





Lower drug costs by allowing the importation of safe medicines from other developed countries, increasing the use of generic drugs in public programs and taking on drug companies that block cheaper generic medicines from the market
Require hospitals to collect and report health care cost and quality data
Reduce the costs of catastrophic illnesses for employers and their employees.
Reform the insurance market to increase competition by taking on anticompetitive activity that drives up prices without improving quality of care.
The Obama-Biden plan will promote public health. It will require coverage of preventive services, including cancer screenings, and increase state and local preparedness for terrorist attacks and natural disasters.

A Commitment to Fiscal Responsibility: Barack Obama will pay for his $50 - $65 billion health care reform effort by rolling back the Bush tax cuts for Americans earning more than $250,000 per year and retaining the estate tax at its 2009 level.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index_campaign.php

[lsbets]

You already went down swinging last November. Obama ran on a platform that included health care reform. Not only did he win big but so did fellow Democrats in both the House and the Senate. The majority has spoken.

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. Judging by the behavior at these town hall meetings, etc., the answer is a resounding no.

In other words - shut up and get out of the way. How dare you voice an opinion contrary to Obama?

All Hail Obama! All Hail Obama!

Noted today, August 11th in the year 2009 of our Lord Obama. All Hail Obama!

[NJ Stinks]

When we lose, we "all" lose....you will soon see.....

Back in the 30"s, in Germany, people just like you wildly cheered for a certain someone, thinking that this will be good for us.....Well, millions of dead-people later, they re-thought the whole thing over, only it was too late....get it ?

best,

Get it? You've got to be kidding. We're not going to war. It's a national health plan that can be adjusted as need be.

Talk about perspective. :rolleyes:

[LottaKash]

In other words - shut up and get out of the way. How dare you voice an opinion contrary to Obama?

All Hail Obama! All Hail Obama!

Noted today, August 11th in the year 2009 of our Lord Obama. All Hail Obama!

xx

Yeah, "hail to the chief of "everthing !""......:jump:

[Tom]

Here's Obama's health plan proposals when he was campaigning before the election. It looks pretty familiar and specific to me.




That is campaign drivel. What Bill number is that plan in?
If it is NOT in writing, it is NOT his plan.
Where is his signed oath that he will NOT sign any bill that doesn't match his campaign lies?


Remember, he also said no new taxes on 95% of th epeople, he was going to get out Iraq, he was going to give rights to suspects in the war on terror, but as we all know, he lied about all of that.

[Tom]

In other words - shut up and get out of the way. How dare you voice an opinion contrary to Obama?

All Hail Obama! All Hail Obama!

Noted today, August 11th in the year 2009 of our Lord Obama. All Hail Obama!

jvxiG56M-eU

[dartman51]

You already went down swinging last November. Obama ran on a platform that included health care reform. Not only did he win big but so did fellow Democrats in both the House and the Senate. The majority has spoken.

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. Judging by the behavior at these town hall meetings, etc., the answer is a resounding no.

Oh, so those wern't 4 SEIU members, that beat up the black dude that was selling flags outside a town hall meeting in St. Louis??? You could even call it a "HATE CRIME", since they called him the "N" word. The way you people see it, community organizing, is only OK, if your side is doing it. The fact is, when ACORN or SEIU thugs are involved, they are getting paid. Talk about "CLASSLESS". But, then you wouldn't know anything about that either.

[dartman51]

Here's Obama's health plan proposals when he was campaigning before the election. It looks pretty familiar and specific to me.

Plan for a Healthy America

Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Plan

On health care reform, the American people are too often offered two extremes - government-run health care with higher taxes or letting the insurance companies operate without rules. Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe both of these extremes are wrong, and that’s why they’ve proposed a plan that strengthens employer coverage, makes insurance companies accountable and ensures patient choice of doctor and care without government interference.

The Obama-Biden plan provides affordable, accessible health care for all Americans, builds on the existing health care system, and uses existing providers, doctors and plans to implement the plan. Under the Obama-Biden plan, patients will be able to make health care decisions with their doctors, instead of being blocked by insurance company bureaucrats.

Under the plan, if you like your current health insurance, nothing changes, except your costs will go down by as much as $2,500 per year.



If you don’t have health insurance, you will have a choice of new, affordable health insurance options.

Make Health Insurance Work for People and Businesses - Not Just Insurance and Drug Companies.






Require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions so all Americans regardless of their health status or history can get comprehensive benefits at fair and stable premiums.
Create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to help small businesses provide affordable health insurance to their employees.
Lower costs for businesses by covering a portion of the catastrophic health costs they pay in return for lower premiums for employees.
Prevent insurers from overcharging doctors for their malpractice insurance and invest in proven strategies to reduce preventable medical errors.
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.
Establish a National Health Insurance Exchange with a range of private insurance options as well as a new public plan based on benefits available to members of Congress that will allow individuals and small businesses to buy affordable health coverage.
Ensure everyone who needs it will receive a tax credit for their premiums.
Reduce Costs and Save a Typical American Family up to $2,500 as reforms phase in:





Lower drug costs by allowing the importation of safe medicines from other developed countries, increasing the use of generic drugs in public programs and taking on drug companies that block cheaper generic medicines from the market
Require hospitals to collect and report health care cost and quality data
Reduce the costs of catastrophic illnesses for employers and their employees.
Reform the insurance market to increase competition by taking on anticompetitive activity that drives up prices without improving quality of care.
The Obama-Biden plan will promote public health. It will require coverage of preventive services, including cancer screenings, and increase state and local preparedness for terrorist attacks and natural disasters.

A Commitment to Fiscal Responsibility: Barack Obama will pay for his $50 - $65 billion health care reform effort by rolling back the Bush tax cuts for Americans earning more than $250,000 per year and retaining the estate tax at its 2009 level.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index_campaign.php






If you think the "PLAN" that you just laid out, is what is proposed in the present plan in DC, one can come to the conclusion that, either you haven't read the bill, or you are a total idiot.

[LottaKash]

Get it? You've got to be kidding. We're not going to war. It's a national health plan that can be adjusted as need be.

Talk about perspective. :rolleyes:

You still don't get it, do you ?....

It is "more" than about health care, it is about control....Total Government Control, and healthcare is just "one" part of the plan.....

I don't believe you really understand what "total control of healthcare" really means....It means you will get a "shot" or drug of something whether you like it or not....Your children can be treated for any reason, without your consent, for whatever reason they deem appropriate, for the child....Just use your imagination, and you will see what serious implications are involved when a gov't can do anything they want with you..... all "in the name of healthcare"....

Wake up, please, and think.....This present form of gov't is not really representing you or me, in the way you would think they should....This is obvious to some of us..

best,

[46zilzal]

You still don't get it, do you ?....

It is "more" than about health care, it is about control....Total Government Control, and healthcare is just "one" part of the plan.....

I don't believe you really understand what "total control of healthcare" really means....It means you will get a "shot" or drug of something whether you like it or not....Your children can be treated for any reason, without your consent, for whatever reason they deem appropriate, for the child....Just use your imagination, and you will see what serious implications are involved when a gov't can do anything they want with you..... all "in the name of healthcare"....

Wake up, please, and think.....This present form of gov't is not really representing you or me, in the way you would think they should....This is obvious to some of us..

Having worked and lived under a governmental health care program for over 35 years, I assure you this is PARANOIA laced BUNK.

If our coverage were not as it was, my wife's long term illness would have put us on the street.

[LottaKash]

Having worked and lived under a governmental health care program for over 35 years, I assure you this is PARANOIA laced BUNK.

If our coverage were not as it was, my wife's long term illness would have put us on the street.

I guess what I am saying may be too "abstract" and "forwarding" thinking for you....You just don't get what I am trying to remind you of...."History" (of gov'ts that are changing for the worse, and the road it takes to get there)

Keep on waving your "prez" flag, I wonl't bother you any longer....

best,

[Tom]

Having worked and lived under a governmental health care program for over 35 years, I assure you this is PARANOIA laced BUNK.

If our coverage were not as it was, my wife's long term illness would have put us on the street.

You have no clue as to what "our system" will look like.
As far as long term illness bail outs, we can take of that far far less money than they want to spend by tearing down the best health care system in the world. WE spend fare more in pork than it would cost to step in in the extreme cases and help those people out. If our morons in DC cared about people, they would have ALREADY TAKEN CARE OF THAT PROBLEM, LIKE THEY JUMPED TO THROW TRILLIONS AT BANKS AND POT HOLE REPAIR.

Come on,libs - you have to admit, with both houses and the WH under dems, with super majorities, there is no valid reason why catastrophic protection for both health and housing crisises has not been put forwar for the people who need it. Withthe money they have used on pork, they could have bought every single failing mortgage out here and GIVEN the homes to the owners. They reason they have notis that the welfare of the people is not their goal. And you damn well know it.

[Track Collector]

You already went down swinging last November. Obama ran on a platform that included health care reform. Not only did he win big but so did fellow Democrats in both the House and the Senate. The majority has spoken.

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. Judging by the behavior at these town hall meetings, etc., the answer is a resounding no.

Obama won because of his masterful salesmanship. Sometimes when you buy something at the store, you take it out of the box at home only to discover that it is not all that it was advertised to be. In Obama's case, the differences are huge. It appears that members of the majority are now beginning to recognize that Obama deceived them, and that his real intentions have nothing to do with helping citizens and making this country better. His goal (and that of his alliances) is to make government more powerful (at the expense of our freedoms) by taking over energy, education, and health care. These power grabs take place one step at a time, until it becomes very difficult to the undo or reverse the damages.

There is still time to fight reckless policies that will cause us financial ruin, to expose these frauds in office, and boot them out during the next election. The only fear policians have is that of not being re-elected, and on this we can enact change for the better. Existing issues (such as health care and energy) can always be improved, but not by mortgaging our future with trillions and trillions of debt, which will make us slaves to our debtors. It's not that the Pelosi's and Reid's of this world lack understanding, but rather, their motives are self-serving, and are not as pure as they would have us believe.

BTW, let's say that the majority in your town believe that taxes should be 50% for your street only, and 10% for all others. Do you have any right, or will it make you less classy, if you object to that which you do not feel is right?

[NJ Stinks]

Track Collector, maybe things will change in upcoming elections and maybe they won't. That doesn't change the fact that Obama is trying to enact the health care plan that he promoted on the campaign trail. This is no surprise to people who voted for Obama. In fact, it's what we expected.

When GWB and his fellow Republicans cut taxes in 2003 so that married people making $1M a year (for example) got to keep an extra $47,000 a year every year while at the same time starting an unfunded war in Iraq, I thought that may have been the dumbest most unpatriotic thing I ever saw Republicans do. Unfortunately, GWB/Republicans were controlling policy for 6 years and it was too late after they won "to fight reckless policies that will cause us financial ruin", (quoting your post above).

Obama, on the other hand, is actually trying help people who need help. Once the spin out there is debunked, some health care reform will be passed by the Democratic Congress and president and hopefully, it will be good. If it's not, Republicans will regain control in Washington again. That how it works as far as I can see.

We can always reverse the damage. (Medicare and Social Security have not been reversed because most people do not consider these programs damage no matter how often they may maligned down here in Off-Topic.).

[Secretariat]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1205953/NHS-branded-evil-Orwellian-high-level-US-politicians.html

'I wouldn't be here if not for the NHS': Stephen Hawking defends UK's 'Orwellian' healthcare after attack by U.S. politicians
By Daniel Bates

Professor Stephen Hawking has spoken out in defence of the NHS after high-level U.S. politicians have branded the National Health Service 'evil' and 'Orwellian'.

The British professor, who has suffered from Lou Gehrig's disease for 40 years, insisted that he 'would not be here' were it not for the NHS.

He spoke after an editorial in Investor's Business Daily, a national financial newspaper in the U.S. that also runs articles by columnists on the Left and the Right, launched a misinformed attack on the NHS.

.....................

But then again, what does Stephen Hawking know compared to the nutcases on the right? I'd like to say they're misinformed, but they are using Cheny tactics. They know they're lying, but they figure if they just keep saying it, stupid people will beleive it.

[lsbets]

stupid people will beleive it.

If you want to call people stupid, it would help if you spelled believe correctly.

Now sit back and wait for the next talking points e-mail you mindless drone.

[Warren Henry]

You already went down swinging last November. Obama ran on a platform that included health care reform. Not only did he win big but so did fellow Democrats in both the House and the Senate. The majority has spoken.

The only question now is whether or not conservatives know how to lose with class. Judging by the behavior at these town hall meetings, etc., the answer is a resounding no.
The left won in November because the Republican leadership strayed WAY too far away from core conservative principles. Some folks thought the message of hope and change was appealing and they blindly abandoned their normal course and voted for same.

Now, what you are seeing is these same folks realizing that they bought a pig in a poke and they are very angry. They did not realize that the leaders of the Dems were selling them a bill of goods.

Those who doubt this will watch and wonder in the next few election cycles.

[NJ Stinks]

Some folks thought the message of hope and change was appealing and they blindly abandoned their normal course and voted for same.

Now, what you are seeing is these same folks realizing that they bought a pig in a poke and they are very angry. They did not realize that the leaders of the Dems were selling them a bill of goods.

Those who doubt this will watch and wonder in the next few election cycles.

That's me, of course.

So you really think Obama voters are screaming at these town hall meetings? :lol:

[Warren Henry]

Here's Obama's health plan proposals when he was campaigning before the election. It looks pretty familiar and specific to me.

Plan for a Healthy America

Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Plan

On health care reform, the American people are too often offered two extremes - government-run health care with higher taxes or letting the insurance companies operate without rules. Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe both of these extremes are wrong, and that’s why they’ve proposed a plan that strengthens employer coverage, makes insurance companies accountable and ensures patient choice of doctor and care without government interference.

The Obama-Biden plan provides affordable, accessible health care for all Americans, builds on the existing health care system, and uses existing providers, doctors and plans to implement the plan. Under the Obama-Biden plan, patients will be able to make health care decisions with their doctors, instead of being blocked by insurance company bureaucrats.

Under the plan, if you like your current health insurance, nothing changes, except your costs will go down by as much as $2,500 per year.



If you don’t have health insurance, you will have a choice of new, affordable health insurance options.

Make Health Insurance Work for People and Businesses - Not Just Insurance and Drug Companies.





Require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions so all Americans regardless of their health status or history can get comprehensive benefits at fair and stable premiums.
Create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to help small businesses provide affordable health insurance to their employees.
Lower costs for businesses by covering a portion of the catastrophic health costs they pay in return for lower premiums for employees.
Prevent insurers from overcharging doctors for their malpractice insurance and invest in proven strategies to reduce preventable medical errors.
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.
Establish a National Health Insurance Exchange with a range of private insurance options as well as a new public plan based on benefits available to members of Congress that will allow individuals and small businesses to buy affordable health coverage.
Ensure everyone who needs it will receive a tax credit for their premiums.
Reduce Costs and Save a Typical American Family up to $2,500 as reforms phase in:





Lower drug costs by allowing the importation of safe medicines from other developed countries, increasing the use of generic drugs in public programs and taking on drug companies that block cheaper generic medicines from the market
Require hospitals to collect and report health care cost and quality data
Reduce the costs of catastrophic illnesses for employers and their employees.
Reform the insurance market to increase competition by taking on anticompetitive activity that drives up prices without improving quality of care.
The Obama-Biden plan will promote public health. It will require coverage of preventive services, including cancer screenings, and increase state and local preparedness for terrorist attacks and natural disasters.

A Commitment to Fiscal Responsibility: Barack Obama will pay for his $50 - $65 billion health care reform effort by rolling back the Bush tax cuts for Americans earning more than $250,000 per year and retaining the estate tax at its 2009 level.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index_campaign.php

The bills being proposed run counter to most of these points used for the campaign. Granted, the bills are still short on details (trust us, we will add the rules after we pass the legislation), but the mechanisms being suggested run counter to the very promises that were made pre election.


Specifically -- These promises ---

Under the plan, if you like your current health insurance, nothing changes, except your costs will go down by as much as $2,500 per year.


If you don’t have health insurance, you will have a choice of new, affordable health insurance options.


Excuse me, but it seems that if you like your current coverage, but change jobs you will have to go with the public option -- no choice.

If you don't have coverage, you will have to go with the public option -- no choice.

If ANYTHING at all changes in your circumstances, you have to go with the public option -- no choice.

Eventually, everyone ends up in the public option -- a pretty smooth and quick transition to single payer or government dictated health care.

Most productive people DO NOT WANT this sort of a plan. These are the people who are shouting at the town hall meetings. They are very afraid of what is happening and they are showing their fear.

Note to public officials -- ignore these frightened people at your own peril.

[Warren Henry]

That's me, of course.

So you really think Obama voters are screaming at these town hall meetings? :lol:

Actually, I do believe that some of the screamers are closet Obama voters. I have several friends who will privately admit having voted for your guy and they are very sorry right now.

[riskman]

Although in some countries that have Universal Health Care there are a few private insurers to pick up the slack for people who can afford private insurance (in order to actually have excellent health care on demand rather than waiting for government-paid services), this video obviously shows that the ultimate goal of our government is to impose a Single-Payer/Universal Health Care system.
Obama and the rest of his comrades knows what is best for us.

Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will [eventually] ELIMINATE private insurance



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk

[46zilzal]

Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will [eventually] ELIMINATE private insurance


and along with it the current thievery that is rampant

[NJ Stinks]

If you don’t have health insurance, you will have a choice of new, affordable health insurance options.


Excuse me, but it seems that if you like your current coverage, but change jobs you will have to go with the public option -- no choice.

If you don't have coverage, you will have to go with the public option -- no choice.

If ANYTHING at all changes in your circumstances, you have to go with the public option -- no choice.

Eventually, everyone ends up in the public option -- a pretty smooth and quick transition to single payer or government dictated health care.

Most productive people DO NOT WANT this sort of a plan. These are the people who are shouting at the town hall meetings. They are very afraid of what is happening and they are showing their fear.



Warren, if you change jobs and your new employer offers health insurance that you prefer, why would you take the public option?

If you lose your job or your company doesn't offer a health insurance benefit, you will be thrilled to have a public option you can afford.

If the public option is the horror story you perceive, nothing will change. People will still cling to jobs they may not like to avoid it.

By "productive people" you mean people that can afford good health insurance. These people can keep what they have now.

Do you really think private insurers are going to drop out of the health insurance business because there is a private option?

[Secretariat]

If you want to call people stupid, it would help if you spelled believe correctly.

Now sit back and wait for the next talking points e-mail you mindless drone.

I didn't think you'd address the Hawking article.

As to people being stupid at these rallies, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

How can they keep making accusations that are simply unfounded? Every truth check on these sensationalist issues being brought up shows they are misinformed.

Things like "death panels" are pulled from recommendations for consultations about a Living Will. Or comments about govt. health care being mandatory. It's simply not true in any of the bills and Obama has said so often as well.

Comments about rationed care when we already have rationed corporate care. The fear of seniors losing their Medicare if there is government run health care when in fact Medicare is government run health care already.

Comments about Russia and communism when in fact socialized medicine is practised in almost every major industrial country in the world including ALL our major allies. It's either Limpball's dittohead or political talk or simply stupid people who are so misinformed they haven't even looked at the proposals. A woman tells Spector that he wouldn't qualify for cancer treatment. She holds up a piece of paper and Spector tells her she's flat out wrong. She is. Stupid people who beleive Obama wants euthanasia for old people. Where do they get this baloney?

I am left with no choice. They are stupid people, OR they are simply speading lies using the Cheney strategy of lie enough and yell loud enough as if you're outraged, and maybe it'll affect other stupid people.

I've got no problem with a debate on healthcare, but the stuff at these town hall meetings is a circus.

Frankly, I could care less if Obama's approach is passed. It's too damn centrist. It's not a single payer system. It's primarily creating an alternative public option that can compete with private health insurance and help stabilize prices. Those who don't want it don't have to apply for it.

Now, I'm sure I spelled a word wrong here, but I haven't run a spell check.

I tend to trust Stephen Hawking at his word when he says he's survived 40 years with Lou Gehrig's disease and he owes it to Britain's socialized NHS. Here, if he applied for private insurance, it'd be a pre-existing condition and he couldn't even get insurance.

[Tom]

If you want to call people stupid, it would help if you spelled believe correctly.

Now sit back and wait for the next talking points e-mail you mindless drone.


:lol: Fish in a barrel! Some days it just flows.

[exactaplayer]

You still don't get it, do you ?....

It is "more" than about health care, it is about control....Total Government Control, and healthcare is just "one" part of the plan.....

I don't believe you really understand what "total control of healthcare" really means....It means you will get a "shot" or drug of something whether you like it or not....Your children can be treated for any reason, without your consent, for whatever reason they deem appropriate, for the child....Just use your imagination, and you will see what serious implications are involved when a gov't can do anything they want with you..... all "in the name of healthcare"....

Wake up, please, and think.....This present form of gov't is not really representing you or me, in the way you would think they should....This is obvious to some of us..

best,
Excuse me but i think your tinfoil helmet is askew.:D

[rastajenk]

Stephen Hawking:weather:: health care reform:global warming.

:D

[LottaKash]

Excuse me but i think your tinfoil helmet is askew.:D

Hey Mr. Ostrich, get your head out of the sand.....Or at least get out of the tunnel from where you are viewing all of this...:kiss:

[PaceAdvantage]

Get it? You've got to be kidding. We're not going to war. It's a national health plan that can be adjusted as need be.

Talk about perspective. :rolleyes:You mean the perspective liberals and far-left wingers had when they paraded the posters of Bush and Rudy Giuliani complete with little Hitler mustaches and swastikas? That kind of perspective?

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/hatemail163_stopbushbob.jpg

http://www.thomasalbert.com/politics/protest/bush-hitler.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_H44IkuSV9qQ/RfC7dLVSCeI/AAAAAAAAAvg/UxywXj4hfDI/s200/Brazil_Bush_Protests2.jpg

[PaceAdvantage]

I assure you this is PARANOIA laced BUNK.Don't take this personally, but I'm going to need a little bit more than your personal assurance on this one....:lol:

[Tom]

So 46, do you agree with Obama that greedy doctors are yanking out tonsils of children and chopping the feet of diabetics just to make more money?

As a doctor, I would think you would be outraged over this general brush he paints your profession with.

[robert99]

I'm sure many of you are familiar with this Bristish politician....here's what he had to say about America's (Obama's) plans to nationalize health care.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Hannan

mike,

You already posted this garbage at http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60424&page=12&pp=15

And posting it twice does not make it any more true.

Today the UK Conservative leadership have completely disowned the views of Hannan. Cameron rebuked the Tory MEP who rubbished NHS in America and brands Daniel Hannan's views on health service eccentric. David Cameron today insisted that the Conservative party stood "full square behind the NHS" as he sought to distance his party from comments made.
Other gullible UK women have also complained that they were duped by US right wing propaganda units into misleading American viewers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/14/health-nhs

Until today, Daniel Hannan was almost completely unknown in UK. He is a Conservative Member of European Parliament for SE England.

The man "would make a helluva good point" in my opinion if anything he said were true. However, his account is completely false.

The facts were that before and during WW2 there was zero health care plans for any UK citizens. Nothing was nationalised in WW2. Everyone was expected to pay full whack to a private doctor/ dentist /optician. With huge numbers out of work in the Depression they could afford zilch let alone save for any medical emergency - so went without any health treatment or used quack remedies. Kids had rickets from malnutrition, kids with bad eye sight lost schooling as they could not read without glasses, people lost all teeth to untreated gum disease, tuberculosis spread untreated from family member to neighbour and so on. Many kids were not even fit enough for military service of any kind. The citizens of the UK would no longer put up with a country that exploited them so badly that the rich never had to raise a finger their whole lives whilst the majority lived in slums and squalor. This was why the Conservatives under Churchill were kicked out of office in 1945.

When UK won the war in 1945 we were totally bankrupt, our houses bombed, factories bombed and burnt out - all had to be rebuilt from scratch to a national plan - not a free for all. There were no high taxes but there was food and petrol rationing right into the mid-50s. There absolutely was a need and the UK Health Service which started in 1948, despite the vested interests, was to ensure that the next generation was strong and healthy in order to rebuild the country - that worked absolutely fine, we recovered, paid off the debts and made it to the 4th largest economy from point zero.

UK citizens will never surrender the freedom from fear and debt that care to all at the point of need gives. Note well we started a "free" health service from zero at a time of bankruptcy.

Americans may not ever realise how lucky they are never to have had their cities and homes bombed and burnt out night after night and ample supplies of good food in their stomachs.

[PaceAdvantage]

When UK won the war in 1945 we were totally bankrupt, our houses bombed, factories bombed and burnt out - all had to be rebuilt from scratch to a national plan - not a free for all. There were no high taxes but there was food and petrol rationing right into the mid-50s. There absolutely was a need and the UK Health Service which started in 1948, despite the vested interests, was to ensure that the next generation was strong and healthy in order to rebuild the country - that worked absolutely fine, we recovered, paid off the debts and made it to the 4th largest economy from point zero.

UK citizens will never surrender the freedom from fear and debt that care to all at the point of need gives. Note well we started a "free" health service from zero at a time of bankruptcy.

Americans may not ever realise how lucky they are never to have had their cities and homes bombed and burnt out night after night and ample supplies of good food in their stomachs.So, when Hannan says an extremely brutal event such as WWII was the cause for Britain to switch to nationalized health care, how is what you just said really any different?

I don't see any difference. WWII and the effects thereof were the impetus behind the switch.

Thus, if we all agree that WWII and its after effects are the reason why England took on nationalized health care (and it seems that we all are in agreement, Hannan, you, me), then Hannan's statement remains very much a valid one:

I find it incredible that a free people living in a country dedicated and founded in the cause of independence and freedom can seriously be thinking about adopting such a system in peacetime and massively expanding the role of the state when there's no need.

You can attempt to discredit Hannan or marginalize him all you wish. The only reason I bring up the name is because he is not an American, but someone from the outside who has first hand experience with government running health care. The fact that he seems not to favor the U.S. going to that kind of system makes it more interesting.

[Warren Henry]

Warren, if you change jobs and your new employer offers health insurance that you prefer, why would you take the public option?

If you lose your job or your company doesn't offer a health insurance benefit, you will be thrilled to have a public option you can afford.

If the public option is the horror story you perceive, nothing will change. People will still cling to jobs they may not like to avoid it.

By "productive people" you mean people that can afford good health insurance. These people can keep what they have now.

Do you really think private insurers are going to drop out of the health insurance business because there is a private option?

Read The Bill. I don't believe that the proposed bills allow the free choices you describe. If you like what you have, you can keep it. Otherwise, you MUST take the public option. In other words, if I change jobs, I am giving up what I have and I do not have the option to get any private insurance offered by my new employer.

[Tom]

Yes, that is what I understand.

[ddog]

So, when Hannan says an extremely brutal event such as WWII was the cause for Britain to switch to nationalized health care, how is what you just said really any different?

I don't see any difference. WWII and the effects thereof were the impetus behind the switch.

Thus, if we all agree that WWII and its after effects are the reason why England took on nationalized health care (and it seems that we all are in agreement, Hannan, you, me), then Hannan's statement remains very much a valid one:



You can attempt to discredit Hannan or marginalize him all you wish. The only reason I bring up the name is because he is not an American, but someone from the outside who has first hand experience with government running health care. The fact that he seems not to favor the U.S. going to that kind of system makes it more interesting.


SO, it would be as interesting if we were to post the OPINION of castro/che/chavez or some other lunatic non-american?

I wonder why you think only this one(the only one you posted) was the only interesting perspective?

[ddog]

RWFB????


You see , there are at least two dozen bills, there is no chance the Senate will pass what the House sent.


All the hysteria is about little.

THe ins and pharma industries will come out well in whatever, if anything, is passed.

That should insure happiness for all.

[LottaKash]

SO, it would be as interesting if we were to post the OPINION of castro/che/chavez or some other lunatic non-american?

I wonder why you think only this one(the only one you posted) was the only interesting perspective?

Same agenda, tho, imo.......

[LottaKash]

RWFB????




All the hysteria is about little.

THe ins and pharma industries will come out well in whatever, if anything, is passed.

That should insure happiness for all.

That's right, who do you think is backing all of this ?....

Once, the gov't gets it's way, and then changes the rules later on, If they tell you to take a "vaccination or a procedure of some sort", and you refuse, then they will kick you out of the this "health care reform"....So if you want to retain your healthcare then you will have to do what is "best" for you, or else...

And who the hell knows "whatever" may be in this shot ?....Even, as of now, Big Pharma, is trying to sell you drugs, where a side effect is "DEATH"....wow !!! One can only imagine what would come later....:eek:

[robert99]

So, when Hannan says an extremely brutal event such as WWII was the cause for Britain to switch to nationalized health care, how is what you just said really any different?

I don't see any difference. WWII and the effects thereof were the impetus behind the switch.

Thus, if we all agree that WWII and its after effects are the reason why England took on nationalized health care (and it seems that we all are in agreement, Hannan, you, me), then Hannan's statement remains very much a valid one:



You can attempt to discredit Hannan or marginalize him all you wish. The only reason I bring up the name is because he is not an American, but someone from the outside who has first hand experience with government running health care. The fact that he seems not to favor the U.S. going to that kind of system makes it more interesting.

No we do not agree. WW2 did not cause the switch. There was no switch - there was no health care system before. The Depression of the 30's on top of the huge loss of male life in WW1 made the sacrifice of WW2 the final straw for "ordinary" men and women - not the primary cause. It was part of a long process since the early 1900's of creating a fairer society. In the 1900s, 40% of kids never made it to 5 years old. Universal Health Care was just one thing the public demanded, so was proper education and opportunities to go to University, homes "fit for heros was another" - instead of squalid slums with up to 40 families sharing one outside toilet. To survive national bankruptcy the private industries bankrupt before WW2 such as steel, coal, railways were also nationalised. This actually worked and put us back on our feet within a decade.

Daniel Hannan an ex journalist has NO experience of running health care. He is NOT in the UK Government and never has been. His party were kicked out in 1997. The UK Government does NOT run the UK National Health Service. It is run locally by Local Health Trusts. Anyone goes to their local doctor practice who advise and arrange the right hospital and the right treatment - no politician is involved any stage. Basically what the Government do is agree the 3 year funding budget that the LHTs must stick with.

You are right at last, DH is not an American, but your fellow Conservatives in UK have completely disowned his views. He may even be kicked out of the party because the Conservatives did have a good chance of election before this blew up.

If Americans want to understand the pro and cons of ours, or any other health system, then come and see for yourselves. We have nothing to hide - we love and cherish our system and the freedom it gives. If Americans want to bluster, exaggerate and misinform each other then don't come - just listen to the propaganda from the vested interests and eccentrics that Fox News bring on who they know will stir up controversy and stop rational debate on the real issues.

[46zilzal]

QUOTE:If Americans want to understand the pro and cons of ours, or any other health system, then come and see for yourselves. We have nothing to hide - we love and cherish our system and the freedom it gives. If Americans want to bluster, exaggerate and misinform each other then don't come - just listen to the propaganda from the vested interests and eccentrics that Fox News bring on who they know will stir up controversy and stop rational debate on the real issues.

same here, BRAVO BRAVO

[Tom]

OK, then I can send our 22 million illegals to you guys?
50-50 split?

(46, we already have plenty of Canadians coming here to get the care they cannot, or have to wait for up there. We SEE already.)

[boxcar]

SO, it would be as interesting if we were to post the OPINION of castro/che/chavez or some other lunatic non-american?

I wonder why you think only this one(the only one you posted) was the only interesting perspective?

Here's one likely answer: Because only in your version of La-La-Land, would it cross anyone else's mind that Hannan was in the same league with the nutjobs you mentioned.

Boxcar

[robert99]

OK, then I can send our 22 million illegals to you guys?
50-50 split?

(46, we already have plenty of Canadians coming here to get the care they cannot, or have to wait for up there. We SEE already.)

For a burger flipper, you sound all powerful Tom.
There was a nasty Daniel Hannan rumour that Bubbles had replaced you.
If only GWB had had you on his staff they would not have all got in in the first place.
We will definitely take all the Muslim folks.
They can help packing up the Halal food parcels to Cleveland.

[cj's dad]

For a burger flipper, you sound all powerful Tom.
There was a nasty Daniel Hannan rumour that Bubbles had replaced you.
If only GWB had had you on his staff they would not have all got in in the first place.
We will definitely take all the Muslim folks.
They can help packing up the Halal food parcels to Cleveland.

Have you ever met either ??? If not, you are a fool !!

[PaceAdvantage]

SO, it would be as interesting if we were to post the OPINION of castro/che/chavez or some other lunatic non-american?

I wonder why you think only this one(the only one you posted) was the only interesting perspective?It's an open board. Feel free to post other opinions. I didn't realize there was a requirement that I hunt down and post every single opinion out there...

[hcap]

No we do not agree. WW2 did not cause the switch. There was no switch - there was no health care system before. The Depression of the 30's on top of the huge loss of male life in WW1 made the sacrifice of WW2 the final straw for "ordinary" men and women - not the primary cause. It was part of a long process since the early 1900's of creating a fairer society. In the 1900s, 40% of kids never made it to 5 years old. Universal Health Care was just one thing the public demanded, so was proper education and opportunities to go to University, homes "fit for heros was another" - instead of squalid slums with up to 40 families sharing one outside toilet. To survive national bankruptcy the private industries bankrupt before WW2 such as steel, coal, railways were also nationalised. This actually worked and put us back on our feet within a decade.

Daniel Hannan an ex journalist has NO experience of running health care. He is NOT in the UK Government and never has been. His party were kicked out in 1997. The UK Government does NOT run the UK National Health Service. It is run locally by Local Health Trusts. Anyone goes to their local doctor practice who advise and arrange the right hospital and the right treatment - no politician is involved any stage. Basically what the Government do is agree the 3 year funding budget that the LHTs must stick with.

You are right at last, DH is not an American, but your fellow Conservatives in UK have completely disowned his views. He may even be kicked out of the party because the Conservatives did have a good chance of election before this blew up.

If Americans want to understand the pro and cons of ours, or any other health system, then come and see for yourselves. We have nothing to hide - we love and cherish our system and the freedom it gives. If Americans want to bluster, exaggerate and misinform each other then don't come - just listen to the propaganda from the vested interests and eccentrics that Fox News bring on who they know will stir up controversy and stop rational debate on the real issues.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2009/08/14/healthcare/

In March 1944, he ( Winston Churchill ) eloquently explained his views on medicine and society to the members of Royal College of Physicians in London:

"The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear. Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion. Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available."

What a wimp!