Zenyatta today...

[joanied]

We had some super races go on Saturday...enjoyed everyone I was able to catch on TV...but, needless to say...today is THE BIG one...I am on pins & needles... things might be a bit harder today for Z...she is facing good competition, and if they keep Life is Sweet in there...well, this is gonna be exciting, to say the least....anyway, no one might be interested in this silly, prob'ly unnecessary post...but I don't care:jump: :jump: :jump: ...
1-Z
2-Life is Sweet
3-Champagne Eyes
4-Lethal Heat

Good luck, Zenyatta...come home first, come home safe!!

[andymays]

How about JOANIED for national racing Czar?


Count me in!:ThmbUp:

[Java Gold@TFT]

Joanie, no offense intended but the best thing that could happen for horse racing right now is for Zenyatta to lose to Life Is Sweet today. If Moss wants a HOY title that would force him to race against males in the Pac Classic and then ship to find Rachel somewhere and then run in the BC Classic against males again.

If she wins today, what is the plan? The Lady's Secret and something else where she towers over mismatched Cal mares and then the Ladie's Classic? No challenge, no nothing. Nothing to force Moss to step up.

Don't forget that Personal Ensign didn't win the HOY because it is what you do in that year. It's not a lifetime achievemant award. She has to step it up sometime this year and until then she will be at the 1/8th pole when Rachel finishes first in the HOY ballotting. JMO.

[bisket]

Joanie, no offense intended but the best thing that could happen for horse racing right now is for Zenyatta to lose to Life Is Sweet today. If Moss wants a HOY title that would force him to race against males in the Pac Classic and then ship to find Rachel somewhere and then run in the BC Classic against males again.

If she wins today, what is the plan? The Lady's Secret and something else where she towers over mismatched Cal mares and then the Ladie's Classic? No challenge, no nothing. Nothing to force Moss to step up.

Don't forget that Personal Ensign didn't win the HOY because it is what you do in that year. It's not a lifetime achievemant award. She has to step it up sometime this year and until then she will be at the 1/8th pole when Rachel finishes first in the HOY ballotting. JMO.
i couldn't agree more!! zenyatta's competition in all her races? i think dicky v would say it best..... cupkake city babeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DJofSD]

Zenyatta schooled in the saddling area yesterday as a part of either the 3rd or 4th race. When the handlers took her out, to go back to the barn, she looked calm enough, very dappled and a nice coat but I would not say the coat was brillant -- a healthy coat but not gleamingly bright.

[toussaud]

the person who said she should lose was dead on.


It's like ging 16 and 0 in the NFL. all the owners care about is "the streak".

oncethe streak is gone, maybe, just maybe, they will actually run a real campaign.

if she loses today, no way she goes ladies secret and lady's classic. What's the point?

at least if she went undefeated she could make the lifetime achievement arguement. she loses now she can't even do that.


hope she loses and goes chasing down rachael later this year.

[DrugS]

How about JOANIED for national racing Czar?


Count me in!:ThmbUp:

:ThmbDown:

[dansan]

its just a horse race anything can happen!

[bisket]

ok all zen fans heres your chance to ride her!! giddyup!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv49V2RzgHw

[joanied]

andymays & DrugS...thanks...that made me :D ...and :blush: !!

I suppose you guys are right about Z loosing today to set things up for later on...as in a meeting with RA...but, geeze, that might be going too far in 'our' quest to see the 2 meet...to hope she looses? Man, that just goes against the grain for me...yet, it Does make sense.
I know one thing....Jackson & Moss might be great for horse racing...but they sure are stubborn...neither is gonna give an inch...and I beleive now that all the Moss's really want is an undefeated mare...which isn't fair to Zenyatta's 'legacy'...
now see what you've done :bang: ...gone and put thoughts of Z loosing today in my head....bad, guys, bad :) :) :)

[bisket]

now that mandella's filly scratched i don't see zen losing today

[Java Gold@TFT]

We aren't all Bad, Bad guys. We just really want to see Zenyatta step up to real competition. It's August and she has raced twice this year aginst way overmatched mares except for her stablemate. If she wins today, she, once again, didn't prove anything. Personal Ensign stepped up in the Whitney. Anyone could have run against her even if it was only Gulch and King;s Swan (a damn good horse in his own right.)

[bisket]

this is the race that made ensign an all time great!!!! everybody knows she was up against it on this type of track. sometimes its the way a horse wins. that race still gives me chills!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oILJ6IYoZso
seattle slew was already on the all time greats list, but this race was the one that showed he was an all time champ and he finished second. you can't achieve these type of things if your not willing to let your mare try!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZFr6N2lNY4

[bisket]

in referance to slew. you gotta love a horse that says i'm gonna run as fast as i can for as long as i can. lets see if you can beat me. what about his derby when he moved half the field out of his way to get the lead by the time they hit the first turn how do ya trip handicap this? yeah some horses get blocked, but some horses never get blocked. be sure to watch the end of this video!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWO0QgZKoYY

[WinterTriangle]

i couldn't agree more!! zenyatta's competition in all her races? i think dicky v would say it best..... cupkake city babeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyone who feels that way........I challenge you to take your lifetime savings today and put it on her. :lol:

[CincyHorseplayer]

I thought Briecat would have a decent shot shortening up a 16th of a mile.She was a pretty decent filly last season and seemed ready to break out.But she scratched.

If Life Is Sweet runs her best race she could take it.

It'll be interesting to see how far Champagne Eyes can go but she had a big win and topped out after that layoff.

Dawn after Dawn made a quick but looks like a premature move vs the same last out and has a solid 6f work.

Lethal Heat in the last route on synthetic won the Grade 2 Hollywood Oaks and along with LIS has a blisetering 5f work.Funky one sprint stretchout,2nd off a layoff though.

Zenyatta is the one to beat but looking at her figs she has hit her ceiling IMO.She's not getting any faster and I thought it took here a while to get her into gear last out.For a brief moment I thought she might get beat.At this point I think Rachel Alexandra could beat her on any surface.

But I'm not here to steal her glory!!!It will be a pretty intersting race.

[LottaKash]

Very unimpressed today....she was lucky to win it, by a head......:confused:

best,

[depalma113]

Smith almost blew that one big time.

[classhandicapper]

That was quite a finish.

When Zenyatta gets rolling late, she's got quite a terrific kick. I wish they would try her on turf just one time.

[WinterTriangle]

[QUOTE=CincyHorseplayer]Zenyatta is the one to beat but looking at her figs she has hit her ceiling IMO.She's not getting any faster and I thought it took here a while to get her into gear last out.For a brief moment I thought she might get beat..
[QUOTE]

It's all about jockey timing with Zenyatta. She doesn't need to get faster, she just has to start moving at *exactly* the right time.

Mike just about didn't time it right today, but Zenyatta pulled it off, as always.

As for a match race w/Rachel, as I've said before, there would have to be 3 races, different track bias and surfaces. Sort of like sets in tennis. :) But their running styles are SO DIFFERENT.

And the 3rd race should be on TURF. :)

[andymays]

How about the personality? :)

[Grits]

She's a joy to watch, but she had to work her big butt off today running at that slow pace.

Her pre-race strut never gets tiring. Smart, smart mare. She knows she's the goods. Its a shame we don't get the thrill of watching these two ladies race one another. A real shame.

[WinterTriangle]

How about the personality? :)

Chomping at the bit and that prancing. Very idiosyncratic. She's a handful!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Granted 1 1/16th isn't Zenyatta's best distance.But nearly losing to a 5yo mare who had won but a N2X allownace since 2007???

Rachel would pound Zenyatta on synthetics IMO.She is a maturing,improving racehorse.Zenyatta has flattened out.

[classhandicapper]

Smith almost blew that one big time.

I know it's the horse's style to relax early and then make a huge wide run, but Smith is ridiculous. He makes no effort at all to adjust the horse's position to the pace. He's way more likely to get this filly beat than she is to lose on the merits of her opponents. The last 5/16ths they were flying and she made up some serious ground. He was lucky he was riding a freak.

113.64 137.28 143.24

[Marshall Bennett]

Leave it to Mike Smith to make a really good racehorse look average . What a terrible ride . Mike Smith isn't even average . :ThmbDown:

[KirisClown]

YTcTiYuY9AQ

[Mineshaft]

Zenyatta needs to go farther this was way too short for her.

[Ian Meyers]

Z is a beautiful and personable filly, but she would have zero shot against Rachel dirt or synthetic, whether they raced head-to-head, or in a large field of horses. The California horses are simply dreadful this year. The field RA ran against at MTH was better than anything Zenyatta faced this year.

JMHO.

[cmoore]

What a slow pace Zenyatta ran at today...A 1:13.64 six furlongs. She ran a 114.1+ and still got there..We all know that slow paces like this, hurt the chances of a closer winning..Props off to ZENYATTA. Mike Smith needs to adjust his internal clock and start her a little earlier for now on..She will never run out of gas running a 1 1/16th. If he starts her a 16th of a mile sooner..She wins by 2+ lengths.

:12: in a row..You GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!

[horses721]

What a slow pace Zenyatta ran at today...A 1:13.64 six furlongs. She ran a 114.1+ and still got there..We all know that slow paces like this, hurt the chances of a closer winning..Props off to ZENYATTA. Mike Smith needs to adjust his internal clock and start her a little earlier for now on..She will never run out of gas running a 1 1/16th. If he starts her a 16th of a mile sooner..She wins by 2+ lengths.

:12: in a row..You GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!

GOTTA LOVE HOW SHE BARELY BEAT ANOTHER LOW QUALITY FIELD.

Now I know why the owner won't leave Califofnia and try to beat real competition when she can stay in home and beat(barely) nothing as usual. If she left the state, she would face some real competition and probably lose! Yes, she is a real cha(u)mp. I',m sorry, I forgot she won a grand total of 1 race outside of California, WOW!!!! :sleeping:

[Indulto]

I think Jess Jackson enjoyed that video more than anybody. ;) .

[bisket]

the best analogy i can come up with is she's looking more and more like stardom bound this past winter and spring. with every race she seems to lose form gradually. first it was smith's fault etc. she's not the same horse she was last year plain and simple. truth is its becoming more and more evident they're hiding out in california.

[cmoore]

GOTTA LOVE HOW SHE BARELY BEAT ANOTHER LOW QUALITY FIELD.

Now I know why the owner won't try to beat real competition when she can stay in California and beat(barely) nothing as usual. If she left the state, she would face some real competition and probably lose! Yes, she is a real cha(u)mp.

Do you all understand PACE?...Any horse running into a 113.64 6f pace seven lengths back is at a huge disadvantage. Lethal Heat got an easy lead up front and had something left late..Anabaa's Creation ran the rail the whole way around the track and got the best trip by far..But even after all that, they couldn't hold off ZENYATTA. She settled last and traveled the longest distance into the slowest pace she's ever seen and still pulls it off..Of course Mike should of started her run earlier. But that's easy to say after the fact. She won and it counts baby!!!!

[horses721]

Do you all understand PACE?...Any horse running into a 113.64 6f pace seven lengths back is at a huge disadvantage. Lethal Heat got an easy lead up front and had something left late..Anabaa's Creation ran the rail the whole way around the track and got the best trip by far..But even after all that, they couldn't hold off ZENYATTA. She settled last and traveled the longest distance into the slowest pace she's ever seen and still pulls it off..Of course Mike should of started her run earlier. But that's easy to say after the fact. She won and it counts baby!!!!

Excuses Excuses

The owners are ducking Rachel and the race today proved why they are doing it! THEY KNOW THE TRUTH

[Marlin]

Do you all understand PACE?...Any horse running into a 113.64 6f pace seven lengths back is at a huge disadvantage. Lethal Heat got an easy lead up front and had something left late..Anabaa's Creation ran the rail the whole way around the track and got the best trip by far..But even after all that, they couldn't hold off ZENYATTA. She settled last and traveled the longest distance into the slowest pace she's ever seen and still pulls it off..Of course Mike should of started her run earlier. But that's easy to say after the fact. She won and it counts baby!!!!This is exactly how I saw it. Very impressive.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

She came her last 1/4 in 22 2/5 while coming wide into the stretch.

An almost impossible feat going 2 turns.

[Marlin]

She came her last 1/4 in 22 2/5 while coming wide into the stretch.

An almost impossible feat going 2 turns.And did not have to run by just one horse, but the entire field! Wow!

[cj]

On dirt, she'll never win against a top horse with that style. She beat tomato cans today.

[WinterTriangle]

Zenyatta needs more distance.

In a distance race, with some pace to run at, Zenyatta would run by Rachel at the end.

CMoore has it right about pace. Zenyatta ran way longer distance today than any other horse in the race.

[Imriledup]

She gave us heart failure today!

[LottaKash]

On dirt, she'll never win against a top horse with that style. She beat tomato cans today.

I am glad you said that first CJ, I was afraid to, as there are so many addicted to her.....Much to do about nothin' today....I would love to see her try some really good ones someday....I think she will break a few hearts tho....

best,

[Bruddah]

I don't know why we all just can't appreciate both Zenyatta and Rachel A.. I am excited for this Sport to have two great fillies to watch and create interest. Zenyatta's running style is definitely suited to artificial turf and Rachel's is suited to dirt. They both have the hearts of Champions and should produce great foals, for the future.

I don't know if they will ever face each other. If they do, surface will definitely be a factor in the outcome. Until then, I applaud the connections and especially these fine mares.

Let me be the first to suggest they run a three match races in 2010, with plenty of time to recover between races. I suggest they run on artificial turf in a race on the West Coast. A dirt surface at Churchill Downs and a grass course on the East Coast. Purses to be split 70-30 or 60-40 for each race.

If both owners want to help the Sport, this should be their campaigns for next year. These races would pack the seats and TV audiences. :ThmbUp:

[Speed Figure]

Would the pace ever be that slow on dirt?

[cj]

Sure, especially going long. Paces have gotten slower because most horses really don't want to run as far, in my opinion.

In my opinion, if Rachel was in that race today on synthetics, she wins by 5 or more.

[CincyHorseplayer]

[QUOTE=CincyHorseplayer]Zenyatta is the one to beat but looking at her figs she has hit her ceiling IMO.She's not getting any faster and I thought it took here a while to get her into gear last out.For a brief moment I thought she might get beat..
[QUOTE]

It's all about jockey timing with Zenyatta. She doesn't need to get faster, she just has to start moving at *exactly* the right time.

Mike just about didn't time it right today, but Zenyatta pulled it off, as always.

As for a match race w/Rachel, as I've said before, there would have to be 3 races, different track bias and surfaces. Sort of like sets in tennis. :) But their running styles are SO DIFFERENT.

And the 3rd race should be on TURF. :)

She doesn't need to get faster???Even her career best 108 might not catch RA,especially with the tactical advantage that one has and the improving form.103's on any surface wouldn't cut it.

It's not about perfect timing though.I just think Zen has leveled off.She would be exposed by a few older males and RA on any surface IMO.

3 race series??!!!!!!!:lol:

BTW-Is this California's version of Hallowed Dreams??!!!!:cool:

[Speed Figure]

Well, that was by far the slowest pace she had ever run against so I guess we disagree.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Some may disagree but I actually think this was one of Zenyatta's best races. Obviously this was Mike Smith's worst race on her though. I really don't care that she beat some mediocre competition by a head, its how she did it.

Mike Smith was far too worried about Life is Sweet and apparently didn't care that they just ran 6 furlongs in 1:13.64. I LOVED how Zenyatta stretched out down the stretch and closed like a freight train. 28.20 seconds for her final 5/16th? That is flying. It took a super horse to overcome that and Zenyatta is definitely that.

Some people think Zenyatta peaked last year, but that is not the case at all. This is just like an unbeaten sports team who had been dominating their competition, and some team gives them a close call. Usually it'll wake them up for future games so it won't happen again. I hope this is the case for Mike Smith. I doubt that he'll try to time out getting the lead right before the wire from now on and I think if he asks her a little earlier just to make sure she can grab the lead, she'll be extremely tough to beat.

Now if only the Mosses run her in the Pacific Classic next...they need to stop worrying about her unbeaten record and take some chances or else they'll be regretting their decisions once she's retired.

[david botsford]

Excuses Excuses

The owners are ducking Rachel and the race today proved why they are doing it! THEY KNOW THE TRUTHMy best quess is they are going to duck RA but she ran a better race than Mike Smith rode.

[Imriledup]

Best out of one, woman y womano. Winner take all, may the best female win.

[sandpit]

Excuses Excuses

The owners are ducking Rachel and the race today proved why they are doing it! THEY KNOW THE TRUTH

It may be that they will duck RA in the coming months, but they couldn't possibly be to this point, since RA has run in races restricted to 3yos. Tough to say someone is "ducking" when their mare isn't even eligible for RA's races. On the flipside, with RA facing the boys twice, it appears that her owners are willing to take a bigger risk to establish her greatness. It will be interesting to see where she runs next: if it's the Travers, then it could be argued that Jackson is not taking that big a chance, since she's already proven she can beat the best 3yo boys (Quality Road excepted). It would be nice to see her take on older mares next; that would be more of a throw down the gauntlet move to the Zenyatta folks.

As for the race today, the pace fig guys sure should be impressed by Zenyatta's final quarter. I like watching horses gallop out and return to be unsaddled; it's a great clue in terms of how much energy it took out of a horse. As usual, Z looked like she was ready to be reloaded in the gate. She expends so little energy that distance should be little worry. Moss should strongly consider the Pacific Classic if he's not willing to go East. The older males in CA, except for Rail Trip, might be as bad as the distaffers.

[GMB@BP]

Some may disagree but I actually think this was one of Zenyatta's best races. Obviously this was Mike Smith's worst race on her though. I really don't care that she beat some mediocre competition by a head, its how she did it.

Mike Smith was far too worried about Life is Sweet and apparently didn't care that they just ran 6 furlongs in 1:13.64. I LOVED how Zenyatta stretched out down the stretch and closed like a freight train. 28.20 seconds for her final 5/16th? That is flying. It took a super horse to overcome that and Zenyatta is definitely that.

Some people think Zenyatta peaked last year, but that is not the case at all. This is just like an unbeaten sports team who had been dominating their competition, and some team gives them a close call. Usually it'll wake them up for future games so it won't happen again. I hope this is the case for Mike Smith. I doubt that he'll try to time out getting the lead right before the wire from now on and I think if he asks her a little earlier just to make sure she can grab the lead, she'll be extremely tough to beat.

Now if only the Mosses run her in the Pacific Classic next...they need to stop worrying about her unbeaten record and take some chances or else they'll be regretting their decisions once she's retired.

Smith is an idiot, he should put her on the lead like a real man.

He has ridden this horse so poorly all she usually does is win in hand, what a choke artist.

[SmartyLane]

Pace makes the race people............IMO this may of been one of her most impressive wins.

Smith was way late on her move and the final stretch at Del Mar is so short that this race at first glance looked unimpressive, but to me it was completely opposite.

Do I think she can beat RA? No, but this was definitely not a race to not be amazed by her!!! She is wonderful regardless of the politics around her and RA and their respective owners.

Great job today Big Z!!!!!!!

[David-LV]

Smith is an idiot, he should put her on the lead like a real man.

He has ridden this horse so poorly all she usually does is win in hand, what a choke artist.

ENOUGH, KNOCKING OF THESE GREAT ATHLETES WHO RIsKS THEIR LIVES EACH AND EVERY RACE FOR OUR PLEASURE.

If you can do any better then get out there!

_______
David-LV

[Marlin]

My best quess is they are going to duck RA but she ran a better race than Mike Smith rode.How are they going to duck RA? By running in one or two more G1s and then the BC? The only ducking will be Rachel ducking the synthetic BC. (BTW I don't think Rachel is ducking Zenyatta)

[statik27]

As a fan of this game, I think sometimes we can jump the gun a bit. Let's face it, we have no idea what would happen in a RA/Zen match up, its all conjecture. One has beat the boys twice and ran some super fast races and the other has beaten all comers in a 12 race career, tomato cans or not (which I disagree with).

Its already been pointed out that RA has been running in restricted races, she's either been getting equal weights or the filly break against the colts, its not a knock against her, how can you knock that haskell performance, but it is a fact. So for all those clamoring for the match up now, it couldn't have happened yet anyway.

Now Zenyatta has been getting equal weights or running in handicapps. She had to deal with gomez race riding on the backstretch in the Milady, give a fair amount of weight away in the Vanity, and delt with a slow pace and awkward ride in the Hirsch today. But she still is undefeated.

Both of these fillies are champions. All Time greats? Who knows, only years to reflect can determine that. But I do know you wont see these fillies match up before the breeders cup. JJ wont change his mind again and put RA on a plane and head to the breeders cup, and Moss wont pull an audible and fly Zen to New York. Its not going to happen.

For myself I applaud Jackson for buying RA and putting her in the spotlight, but wish he would not back himself further into the "no plastics" corner evertime he opens his mouth. This filly isn't Curlin, she can run on the plastic and I think she'd be right there in the BC Classic.

The mosses, I applaud them for doing the right thing and giving a gangly yearling daughter by street cry enough time to grow into herself and am pleased that they've been rewarded by such a nice mare. However, I think that sometimes champions shine only in defeat, ala Seattle Slew's JCGC, a race that solidfied that horses legacy as a champion and I think that the conservative approach isn't always the right one. So here's hoping they think outside the box.

Now as for the rest of the year, my guess is RA will skip the Travers for a match up against older mares and you might see her try to take the Mineshaft route to HOY in the JCGC, in my opinion winning that race would be enough.

As for Zenyatta, well, ever notice how the Mosses and Sheriffs keeping saying "Breeders Cup" and not what race she'll be in? I think they'll follow the same route to the BC as they did last year, but I hope, I hope, they run her in the Classic, she's earned the right to run in that race. Plus she's been crying for 10f since day one.

After the BC, maybe everyone can get on the same page and we'll see a match for the ages. I don't know who'll win, but I'd really love the chance to find out.

[WinterTriangle]

What a slow pace Zenyatta ran at today...A 1:13.64 six furlongs.

But final 5/16th of a mile in 28.20 seconds, and final 1/16 in less than 6 seconds.

for those who say she needs to run faster, she runs just enough to get the job done. It's uncanny, toying with the field.

smith said she wasn't breathing hard at all afterwards. She is a smart mare, I often think people underestimate that some horses are just SMART. She knows she doesn't have to struggle, she does her little dance, then relaxes during the race, and when jock shakes the reins, she "starts" to work........a little. As little as necessary, and she seems to know what that *is*....what is required.

I'm also fascinated by how smith takes her out in post parade, to just stand in the field. You see her standing there, looking. Calm.

Like she is looking out over her kingdom. :)

She's just very .......... odd....in a fantastic way.


Smith admitted he was concentrating on Life is Sweet. It was his timing, not her running, that affected that close finish line ending. Zenyatta has much more than she has even shown us, IMHO.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Good lord WT!!!She just got up to beat a mare who still qualifies for a N3X Allowance race.

Hardly the stuff of legends.

[CBedo]

Do you all understand PACE?...Any horse running into a 113.64 6f pace seven lengths back is at a huge disadvantage. Lethal Heat got an easy lead up front and had something left late..Anabaa's Creation ran the rail the whole way around the track and got the best trip by far..But even after all that, they couldn't hold off ZENYATTA. She settled last and traveled the longest distance into the slowest pace she's ever seen and still pulls it off..Of course Mike should of started her run earlier. But that's easy to say after the fact. She won and it counts baby!!!!Let's see if I understand pace. If the horses run slow up front (because they are slow), and then a horse that should demolish them barely gets up, that's a good race? Closers don't run lower numbers in slow paced races; the E horses, given they have any talent whatsoever, are supposed to run better because they are comfortable. In this case, you could put most of those in the race today out there in the most comfortable situation possible, and they still wouldn't be able to beat any real quality horses.

And everyone keeps talking about her amazing come home times today. It's because the pace was slow. Just like an E horse that gets to save his energy, she saved hers.

Very unimpressive.

[lamboguy]

Let's see if I understand pace. If the horses run slow up front (because they are slow), and then a horse that should demolish them barely gets up, that's a good race? Closers don't run lower numbers in slow paced races; the E horses, given they have any talent whatsoever, are supposed to run better because they are comfortable. In this case, you could put most of those in the race today out there in the most comfortable situation possible, and they still wouldn't be able to beat any real quality horses.

And everyone keeps talking about her amazing come home times today. It's because the pace was slow. Just like an E horse that gets to save his energy, she saved hers.

Very unimpressive.personally all that i have learned after watching ZENYATTA for the past few years is that all she know's how to do is win no matter what the pace is or how bad the ride she gets. everytime i watch her it looks like she will never win the race on the far turn. she gives up tons of ground and runs a further distance than her competition. she alway's winds up winning the race, i think about twelve of them so far.

this is the way she runs, i kinda doubt that she or anyone else involved with her wants to change her style. she function's this way because she know's that when she swings off the turn and goes into the lane its time for her to lengthen her strides.

the $64k question is going to be if she gets to far back against legitamately good horses will she be able to catch them down the lane? i seriously doubt if there is another horse alive today that can run faster than her in her last quarter going over a mile on 2 turns.

[DanG]

It’s a coin flip which is more remarkable imo. Zenyatta maintaining a perfect graded record / always laying her body down while coming from dead last or the amount of negative posting she receives.

[Java Gold@TFT]

It’s a coin flip which is more remarkable imo. Zenyatta maintaining a perfect graded record / always laying her body down while coming from dead last or the amount of negative posting she receives.
Dan, personally I like her style and the personality I see on the screen. The negatives are because she doesn't get a chance to run outside of her comfort zone. That's the owner's fault and not hers. Since she ran at Oaklawn last year her odds have been $0.20 - $0.70. That says to everyone that she is beating overmatched mares and not taking on a big challenge. People in other threads say the same thing about Ruffian. She was always heavily favored. Unfortunately she didn't have the opportunity to prove herself outside of her peers which I am sure that Mr. Janney was willing to do.

I'm not their owners but I would be willing to bet real money that if Moss called up Jackson and said we are going in the Delaware or we're going in the Personal Ensign that Rachel would have been there waiting for Zenyatta. It didn't happen. He went back to the Hirsch. So now, what's next? He's already mentioned a race between now and the Lady's Secret but not which ones he's considering. Pac Classic? Bring on the boys. They aren't that special right now. A win against the Hollywood Gold Cup would be a notch in the belt.

It's just time for Moss to step it up. That's the negativity. She has done what has been asked of her but so did Hallowed Dreams and that NM bred that won 16 in a row recently. (No, I'm not insinuating that Zenyatta is that quality - just that they did what was asked of them and never took on a real challenge.)

Slightly off this topic but Del Mar got 20,000 people yesterday but 40,000 on opening day? What is wrong with people in So Cal? If Rachel races in the Travers there will be 70,000+ and if she goes in the Woodward there will be 50,000+. 20,000 for an undefeated homegirl? pathetic.

[Java Gold@TFT]

One more thing after reading this thread this morning. I looked at the charts for Subday's races. There were 3 races on the synth around 2 turns. Down the backstretch the 3 winners were last, last and 2nd to last. Just food for thought. It might not be a big enough sample to call it a bias but it's interesting to note.

[KingChas]

The only thing in California that will ever beat Zenyatta is possibly the poly track maintenence crew. ;)

[JustRalph]

Cmoore was reading my mind. The pace made it tough on her. Mikey should have pulled the trigger a little earlier............

CJ makes a good point.......... I think this style of always coming roaring from the back, is what it is. A disadvantage against the top of the heap. She hasn't faced the top yet. Rachel cruises home against her with Borel setting a nice easy pace.........if you ask me.

Tyler Baze almost outsmarted Mikey today........and J. Sheriff ...et al.

That kid is getting better still.............he can take much lesser horses and ride em smart to steal some big money............

Anabbaa's creation is worth a lot more today than she was two days ago......she may have only pocketed 60k but everybody will remember that photo with Zenyatta

[DanG]

It's just time for Moss to step it up. That's the negativity. She has done what has been asked of her but so did Hallowed Dreams and that NM bred that won 16 in a row recently. (No, I'm not insinuating that Zenyatta is that quality - just that they did what was asked of them and never took on a real challenge.)

Slightly off this topic but Del Mar got 20,000 people yesterday but 40,000 on opening day? What is wrong with people in So Cal? If Rachel races in the Travers there will be 70,000+ and if she goes in the Woodward there will be 50,000+. 20,000 for an undefeated homegirl? pathetic.
I understand your points Java, but do they apply equally to all regions of racing?

While New York is the undisputed Mecca of American racing I could list a remarkable who’s / who of champion’s that left NY less frequently then Woody Allen. Zenyatta’s connections are based in So Cal and are rewarding the California racing fans by racing her there.

As far as taking on ‘real challenges…I’m of the opinion that is overstated. These graded events and her BC are open invitations and while her Apple Blossom is getting less respect for some reason because it only happened once…it did happen and Ginger Punch’s head is still spinning from the freight train that went by her.

IMHO: New York would be marketing her as the female ‘Forego with her running style and body type. That’s my personal observation having spent most of my life in the north east and then moving west. The borderline animosity directed at animals achievements outside of NY is a real phenomenon imo; but it does add spice to our sport and I hope that dynamic is never lost.

As far as on track attendance…California is going through some very serious / state wide issues as we all know, but over the last decade I don’t think NY and California want to compare year round on track attendance. It isn’t even close on average.

BTW: Your namesake [screen name] is one of my favorite animals in history. :ThmbUp:

[CincyHorseplayer]

I think California has turned itself into a carnival,not a stakes festival.Before synthetics it held a self imposed class.It's not a pinnacle of racing anymore once it ceased to be run over dirt main tracks IMO.Will it ever be the perennial breeding ground for triple crown race winners again??Does synthetics get the right conditioning into horses to win big dirt races???And I don't mean so-so horses who improve once they leave the surfaces.Will those who win those preps make an impact elsewhere??There has always been some east coast/west coast rivalry but California has turned itself into a farce IMO and it's perfectly embodied in Zenyatta.

Zenyatta and her record are very impressive.But til she steps out of the state and out of her division she really is but a faster version of a Hallowed Dreams.

California did this to themselves.I think it's pretty pretentious to introduce a 3rd surface,then declare it "thee" standard of measurement.Zenyatta will have to leave it to prove her mettle or she is an isolated phenomenon.

[Marshall Bennett]

Cmoore was reading my mind. The pace made it tough on her. Mikey should have pulled the trigger a little earlier............

CJ makes a good point.......... I think this style of always coming roaring from the back, is what it is. A disadvantage against the top of the heap. She hasn't faced the top yet. Rachel cruises home against her with Borel setting a nice easy pace.........if you ask me.

Tyler Baze almost outsmarted Mikey today........and J. Sheriff ...et al.

That kid is getting better still.............he can take much lesser horses and ride em smart to steal some big money............

Anabbaa's creation is worth a lot more today than she was two days ago......she may have only pocketed 60k but everybody will remember that photo with Zenyatta
Tyler Baze has become a better jockey than Mike Smith . Much better . He's fearless . Nothing jars him . Mike on the other hand rides in fear , always .

[DanG]

But til she steps out of the state and out of her division she really is but a faster version of a Hallowed Dreams.

Wow…I wonder how many posts away ‘Black Ruby’ is from joining this conversation.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Wow…I wonder how many posts away ‘Black Ruby’ is from joining this conversation.
The last horse that East coasters bashed as a strictly Cal phenomenon was Lava Man. At least he stepped out of that zone a few times even if he didn't win when he did. Could it be the same with Zenyatta? We'll probably never know. And I do know of all of the horses that ran great in NY and were criticized for staying there like Sky Beauty There were others that were bashed like Personal Ensign, Easy Goer and Go For Wand even though they did travel from time to time. They were still NY based and ran there primarily. Just as the Zenyatta camp says - everyone knows where we are going to be so come take us on at our home. The problem is that the polycrap situation has thrown a wrench in everything. It owuld be like Gio Ponti's connections saying to Rachel's camp - we've won 4 G-I's this year and we'll be at the Turf Classic so come and get us if you think you are better. They are different surfaces. Maybe the Fabulous Strike group says to come find them in a 6F race if you think Rachel is better. It just doesn't work that way. Unfortunately Moss has decided to entrench himself on a surface that he says he doesn't like but he won't leave home without it.

[Irish Boy]

If Rachel races in the Travers there will be 70,000+

Dollars in the win pool? Surely you don't mean people.

[classhandicapper]

It’s a coin flip which is more remarkable imo. Zenyatta maintaining a perfect graded record / always laying her body down while coming from dead last or the amount of negative posting she receives.

I agree.

This was obviously a weak field and her running style would be a serious tactical disadvantage on dirt, but it took a freak of a horse to run the last 5/16ths in 28.48 after swinging out wide. I can't think of many fillies that would have won that race from there.

I think this may be the issue.

She ran her 1st quarter in 26.07.

I don't have the skill to measure exact energy usage, but I don't think that was a very efficient way to run. I think the energy usage difference between running a 25 or 26 1st quarter is probably minimal in a high quality route like this. 23 or 24 can be bigger (IMO a 1 second difference does not always consume the same amount of energy).

If they could get her into the race just a little in that first quarter, IMO she'd retain most of her late kick and be several lengths closer when she started. Then she'd earn better final time figures and win by a bigger margin.

I don't think a premature move would help. It might even hurt. But she can't run trotter time in that first quarter.

IMHO, this is an all time great filly, but that style needs to be adjusted a little or it WILL get her beat despite her superiority.

[11cashcall]

She was very lucky considering..... see attachments.

[11cashcall]

the best analogy i can come up with is she's looking more and more like stardom bound this past winter and spring. with every race she seems to lose form gradually. first it was smith's fault etc. she's not the same horse she was last year plain and simple. truth is its becoming more and more evident they're hiding out in california.


Was just thinking the exact same thing.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Dollars in the win pool? Surely you don't mean people.
There were 40,000 for the Whitney this weekend and a few years back there were 70,000 for Point Given's Travers. If the weather is nice and Rachel meets Mine That Bird, Summer Bird and Quality Road then the sky is the limit. If those 4 all show up 70,000 will be no problem except for the people who have to park at the harness track and walk to the real race track.

[delayjf]

On dirt, she'll never win against a top horse with that style. She beat tomato cans today.

I tend to agree, especially at any distance shorter than 1 1/4. If I were the connections I would look to take on RA at that distance and enter a rabbit to keep the pace honest.

Still the final 3/8 was run in 29 3/5 and she gain 6 lengths into that fraction - while running wide.

My wife loves Zenyatta, especially that prance she does - she thinks she's "cheeky"

I do think she would take RA on the turf - have the connections considered running her on turf.

[Robert Fischer]

the top3 came from 3rd,1st and dead last.
she ran against the setup and won. To me that is more impressive than beating a great field that dueled and collapsed.

What bothers me is how short these races are. I kind of have the same bias toward (short)distance that some of the synth-haters on this board have towared surface.

8.5 furlongs is more of a distance for stamina challenged horses who can't run a true classic distance race. She might be a classic distance superstar who can take on the worlds best in the breeders cup. She is massive in both talent and size. The only way she can lose against her sex is against a G2 or higher competition with an extreme forward-favoring setup.
Time to go for the BC Classic. She belongs in the field. In the meantime the prep race is not the Lady's Secret @ 8.5furlongs.

[ezrabrooks]

Dan, personally I like her style and the personality I see on the screen. The negatives are because she doesn't get a chance to run outside of her comfort zone. That's the owner's fault and not hers. Since she ran at Oaklawn last year her odds have been $0.20 - $0.70. That says to everyone that she is beating overmatched mares and not taking on a big challenge. People in other threads say the same thing about Ruffian. She was always heavily favored. Unfortunately she didn't have the opportunity to prove herself outside of her peers which I am sure that Mr. Janney was willing to do.

I'm not their owners but I would be willing to bet real money that if Moss called up Jackson and said we are going in the Delaware or we're going in the Personal Ensign that Rachel would have been there waiting for Zenyatta. It didn't happen. He went back to the Hirsch. So now, what's next? He's already mentioned a race between now and the Lady's Secret but not which ones he's considering. Pac Classic? Bring on the boys. They aren't that special right now. A win against the Hollywood Gold Cup would be a notch in the belt.

It's just time for Moss to step it up. That's the negativity. She has done what has been asked of her but so did Hallowed Dreams and that NM bred that won 16 in a row recently. (No, I'm not insinuating that Zenyatta is that quality - just that they did what was asked of them and never took on a real challenge.)

Slightly off this topic but Del Mar got 20,000 people yesterday but 40,000 on opening day? What is wrong with people in So Cal? If Rachel races in the Travers there will be 70,000+ and if she goes in the Woodward there will be 50,000+. 20,000 for an undefeated homegirl? pathetic.

Attendence down due to Del Mar not accepting CA IOUs at the gate..

Ez

[DanG]

If they could get her into the race just a little in that first quarter, IMO she'd retain most of her late kick and be several lengths closer when she started. Then she'd earn better final time figures and win by a bigger margin.

You make interesting points as usual Class; but I respectfully disagree with this one. I’ve seen all her starts multiple times and her worst races (imo) were when she was encouraged at all early.

She needs to figuratively fall out of the gate with an extremely loose rein and set down for blast off turning for home. If she doesn’t get there…so be it and we all know the land mines that await true one run animals and it only makes her record all the more remarkable to me.

[LottaKash]

But final 5/16th of a mile in 28.20 seconds, and final 1/16 in less than 6 seconds. .

Without trying to take anything away from the Quality of Zenyatta, I find it amusing how some would rationalize her race yesterday as some fantastic feat of strength and stamina....

If one puts those 6-second spits into x4, that would only equal a 24 sec last 1/4.....A swift closing fraction I suppose, but not the wonder close of all time....

Top quality harness horses can do 25 and change off of a slow pace such as we witnessed in yesterdays affair....And Zenyatta's opening split was no eye opener at that either....A decent harness horse, as well, could've beaten her to the first 1/4 in that race....

So Zenyatta keeps her win streak in tact, and that is great for her and for her fans, and for racing, but, this was definitely not her greatest race (that is all I am saying), in fact it was an ez race for her and yet she was lucky to win it.....At 1/5 on the tote, not impressive at all, imo....especially given the field she had to beat....(tomato cans..haha)

Zenyatta is a "one dimension" racer, and swift last fractions are the norm for these ...That is what I saw, and that is what she did and nothing more.....Sure she closed swiftly, but that is how it works with the "one-run" wonders....

Zenyatta, I hope you enjoyed your well deserved "day-off"......I know you can do better....And I hope you do.....

P.S.... Zenyatta, Rachel would've left you in the dust, and you could've never closed enough to catch her, imo....

best,

[bisket]

one thing everyone needs to understand is pace doesn't have as much effect on the outcome of a race on poly. (just ask andy beyer :bang: ). a horse can't carry speed over a distance like on dirt. using 12 second furs as a par time this is the pace line in most dirt races for the winner in a 1 1/4 mile race 23, 24, 25, 24, 24. now your pace line for poly would look more like this 24, 25, 25, 24, 22. horses with a quick burst of speed have much more success winning races on poly than a horse like rachel who's trying to carry similar fractions over the same distance. so horses don't have to run 22 and 23- 1/4 miles at the beginning of a race to be vulnerable at the end. THEY ARE JUST AS VULNERABLE TO A CLOSER RUNNING 24 SECOND FRACTIONS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE RACE. when handicapping poly the horse with the best closing wins the majority of the time regardless of early fractions!!!!! now this is in routes. for race 7 furs or less the dirt pace model is the same on poly.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Without trying to take anything away from the Quality of Zenyatta, I find it amusing how some would rationalize her race yesterday as some fantastic feat of strength and stamina....

If one puts those 6-second spits into x4, that would only equal a 24 sec last 1/4.....A swift closing fraction I suppose, but not the wonder close of all time....

She came her last Q in 22 2/5

[LottaKash]

She came her last Q in 22 2/5

She was well rested, why shouldn't she ?.....She was just about in contention at the top of the lane, so I am not all that impressed, given that....

I don't want to take the quality of her last 1/4 away from her, it is big, but, she is a closer, and that is what closers do....Again, I am only referring to "this" race....

Hey, True-Class usually shows up at the wire, and it did, but not impressively so....(that is all I am saying)

best,

[ryesteve]

She came her last Q in 22 2/5Where did you get the split at 6.5 furlongs?

[classhandicapper]

You make interesting points as usual Class; but I respectfully disagree with this one. I’ve seen all her starts multiple times and her worst races (imo) were when she was encouraged at all early.

She needs to figuratively fall out of the gate with an extremely loose rein and set down for blast off turning for home. If she doesn’t get there…so be it and we all know the land mines that await true one run animals and it only makes her record all the more remarkable to me.

I think you misunderstood me.

I am definitely not saying she should be urged early. That would probably wind up causing a premature move that would hurt her. What I am saying is that running 26 early is a very inefficient way of running. It's also not really typical of her. When she ran 26 yesterday, she was literally spotting the field 5 or more lengths without saving much if any energy by doing so.

Perhaps they can train her to be a tad more lively out of the gate while still racing well within herself instead of just falling back to last on automatic pilot and making herself very vulnerable to a slow pace.

Take a look at her typical early fractions. 25 is well within her range without being used. If she did that yesterday, IMO, she would have jogged.

But I agree, to push her to do it would probably have negative results because she would start running way too early and lose her big late run.

[bisket]

i think she's just become accustomed to running behind horses, and she'll do that no matter how fast they are going. its what she's done in every race so she thinks thats what expected of her.

[bisket]

many of her works are on you tube. every one of them she starts off behind her workmate and in the stretch she overtakes her workmate. she's just doing what she's taught as far as the slow early fractions.

[LottaKash]

i think she's just become accustomed to running behind horses, and she'll do that no matter how fast they are going. its what she's done in every race so she thinks thats what expected of her.

Bisket, I believe you are right in that regard.....I would bet that Zenyatta could be a different kind of winner (racing syle), but I doubt if the connections would toy with that notion, as it would probably cost her a race or two before she got it right....Why mess with success, I guess ?......

Still, some horses are just plain "one dimensional" for life....

best,

[delayjf]

P.S.... Zenyatta, Rachel would've left you in the dust, and you could've never closed enough to catch her, imo....

At any distance shorter than 1 1/4 ON THE DIRT, I agree with you, at 1 1/4 it would depend. On the Turf, Zenyatta blows RA's doors off.

With the BC at SA this year, advantage Zenyatta.

[LottaKash]

At any distance shorter than 1 1/4 ON THE DIRT, I agree with you, at 1 1/4 it would depend. On the Turf, Zenyatta blows RA's doors off.

With the BC at SA this year, advantage Zenyatta.

I would love to see any or all of those matchups, especially with an additional mix of "good and well qualified" runners joining in the fray....

best,

[GMB@BP]

the $64k question is going to be if she gets to far back against legitamately good horses will she be able to catch them down the lane? i seriously doubt if there is another horse alive today that can run faster than her in her last quarter going over a mile on 2 turns.

You make a valid point about catching a good horse rather than what is in the Clement today, but didnt she prove that last year in the Breeders Cup. Cocoa Beach went on to win the Matriarch.

[Java Gold@TFT]

OK, A new suggestion. Let's all stop the idea of a Rachel-Zenyatta match race because of the inherent difference in their running style. Let's setup a Zenyatta-Mine That Bird match race. They could run 10F with the opening half going in 55 seconds and the last 1/8th in 10 flat. Zenyatta has the potential to get a win over a male and MTB has the potential to actually WIN another race this year. It's the perfect scenario because Chip Woolley said this morning that he is considering the Goodwood after the Travers so he's not afraind of poly after the races at WO last year. Even better, if Chip does go to the Goodwood then put Zenyatta in there to and see which one wants to be last the most down the backstretch. I'll watch.

[bisket]

Bisket, I believe you are right in that regard.....I would bet that Zenyatta could be a different kind of winner (racing syle), but I doubt if the connections would toy with that notion, as it would probably cost her a race or two before she got it right....Why mess with success, I guess ?......

Still, some horses are just plain "one dimensional" for life....

best,
i agree she could be multidimensional. if she can run that fast at the end of the race; she has the ability to run a fast 1/4 to get position mid race and then still close. she reminds me so much of her brother street sense. he had that same quickness. if you hear what moss has been saying: if the cup was on dirt we would run her on different tracks. reading between the lines they are saying we're doing what's gonna win us the cup. for polytrack this is the best style for her. to race and beat rachel they would have to change her style, and that would risk losing the cup in their mind i guess. zenyatta has the talent to win in different ways, but if it works they're not gonna fix it. they know all they have to do is follow the field for a mile, and turn her loose.

[LottaKash]

OK, A new suggestion. Let's all stop the idea of a Rachel-Zenyatta match race because of the inherent difference in their running style. Let's setup a Zenyatta-Mine That Bird match race. They could run 10F with the opening half going in 55 seconds and the last 1/8th in 10 flat. Zenyatta has the potential to get a win over a male and MTB has the potential to actually WIN another race this year. It's the perfect scenario because Chip Woolley said this morning that he is considering the Goodwood after the Travers so he's not afraind of poly after the races at WO last year. Even better, if Chip does go to the Goodwood then put Zenyatta in there to and see which one wants to be last the most down the backstretch. I'll watch.

Too funny.. Java.....:jump:

best,

[Java Gold@TFT]

You make a valid point about catching a good horse rather than what is in the Clement today, but didnt she prove that last year in the Breeders Cup. Cocoa Beach went on to win the Matriarch.
Cocoa Beach is a nice mare and ran well this week at Saratoga. Lots of people are in the "Who did she beat" club. I'll give you two that also belong in that club. The first wasn't in the same zip code as Rachel in the Oaks at the end and came back to win the G-I Acorn in her next start. The second didn't know she was on the same track as Rachel in the Mother Goose and came back to win the G-I Test stakes in her next start. It happens all the time. That adds two more G-I winners that Rachel has beaten this year on top of horses like Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, Pioneer ofthe Nile who were all G-I winners before Rachel beat them. How many 2009 G-I winners have been on the short end of Zenyatta's charts? I've already said before that I like her and she is good for racing in a way but to continually run against suspect fields is frustarting. Take on Rail in the Pac Classic and I'll feel a little better about who she is beating.

[CBedo]

the $64k question is going to be if she gets to far back against legitamately good horses will she be able to catch them down the lane? I agree with this completely. I'm not saying she isn't a special mare; I'm just saying we just won't know how special until she competes against something better than the subpar crop of Caifornia older fillies and mares.

Being the cynic I am, I have to doubt her until her connections prove me wrong. If she is as good is some think she is, why keep running her for 300K when she could run for much more? Pacific Classic anyone?

[joanied]

:ThmbDown:

Guess I screwed up when I typed in DrugS for a thank you when andymays posted the silly czar thing...which made me laugh...

your reply shows just how much class you have DrugS...
here ya go :p

[LottaKash]

If she is as good is some think she is, why keep running her for 300K when she could run for much more? Pacific Classic anyone?

E-Z "Kash"....:cool:

best,

[DJofSD]

I would agree that Z running at the back of the pack is normal but as far as the works with a companion go, I think what is being reinforced is not to run behind the other horses but to pass horses when asked.

[bisket]

one thing nobody has mentioned is the hirsch was changed to a stakes from a handicap after there was a chance zen was going to run somwhere else because delmar would have had to give her 130lbs if it remained a handicap. delmar didn't want to lose the gate so they changed the race so zen wouldn't have to carry weight. she woulda lost if she had to spot any of these weight!!!!! and they were a bunch of cupcakes.

[joanied]

We aren't all Bad, Bad guys. We just really want to see Zenyatta step up to real competition. It's August and she has raced twice this year aginst way overmatched mares except for her stablemate. If she wins today, she, once again, didn't prove anything. Personal Ensign stepped up in the Whitney. Anyone could have run against her even if it was only Gulch and King;s Swan (a damn good horse in his own right.)

JavaGold....I hope you know calling you guys baaaaaaad is all in jest :) ...

You do make a valid point...and I realize that Z hasn't faced much, except for Life is Sweet, there just doesn't seem to be any mares in CA that can beat her...although, Sunday was a close call :faint: ...
I was so busy on Sunday I had to record and watch the race this morning...before I even turned on the ol' puter...so I am still reading through all the posts in this thread...I'm sure I'll have sevral replies to type in ;) ...
it bothers me that her connections are being so overly cautious with her...not sending her out of CA....I guess we can bitch about that all we want, it won't change any of their plans...at this point, I beleive they will be overjoyed at retiring her undefeated and call it good...she'd have to do quite a lot more, IMHO, to garner HotY...
IMO, Z could beat at least most of the colts, but she'll never get the chance...they did the right thing with Personal Ensign...and she didn't let them down...that is what connections should do...have enough faith and confidence in an exceptional horse to raise the bar. I don't think Z's people will do that, especially after Sunday...she did overcome alot to win...Mike, IMO, must have realized how slow they were going, and although he made up 5 or 6 lengths on the backstretch, I think he waited a second or two too long to get her going...her class & courage won it today...if Mike had gotten her going a little sooner, the margin may have been more...although, for me...a win is a win is a win!!
:)

[senortout]

Thinking along these lines.....Did not most of us think Life Is Sweet the main danger in there?....the biggest puzzle is what happened to her late kick?...and I think Annabes Creation is a filly to fear in a rematch, I really do. I handicapped the race, saw her potential, but couldn't get past Life Is Sweet.

So far as who is best, Z or RA, if they met on the synthetic, RA's muscle conditioning would probably put her at a bit of a disadvantage, but she could likely run a bit off her top and still handle Z....going the other way, to dirt, Z would have no chance.....say, maybe a slight chance if the field was small, otherwise, she's out in the parking lot hoping to rally from there....impossible.

[46zilzal]

Late movers have to pass entire fields which makes this one all the more prone to that one situation where she is still the best but just can't get through. So far that has not happened.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Where did you get the split at 6.5 furlongs?

After the race, Trakus said she came 22 2/5 last Q and covered an amazing amount of extra ground.

[LottaKash]

After the race, Trakus said she came 22 2/5 last Q and covered an amazing amount of extra ground.

At "1/5" she was supposed to....:jump:

best,

[joanied]

It’s a coin flip which is more remarkable imo. Zenyatta maintaining a perfect graded record / always laying her body down while coming from dead last or the amount of negative posting she receives.

Oh, thank you, Dan G... short, sweet and right on the mark!
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[lamboguy]

I agree with this completely. I'm not saying she isn't a special mare; I'm just saying we just won't know how special until she competes against something better than the subpar crop of Caifornia older fillies and mares.

Being the cynic I am, I have to doubt her until her connections prove me wrong. If she is as good is some think she is, why keep running her for 300K when she could run for much more? Pacific Classic anyone?ZENYATTA'S connections don't take a back seat to no one and neither does RACHELALEXANDRA'S. if they ever meet they will both think that they are going to win the race ahead of time.

[rokitman]

RA would run around the track and be right behind ZZZ again by the time ZZZ got to the top of the stretch. She'd beat ZZZ wire-to-wire, from behind, and be back in her stall wearing one of Christina's gigantic hats & sipping a pina colada before ZZZ crossed the finish line.

Prove me wrong :cool:

[Java Gold@TFT]

ZENYATTA'S connections don't take a back seat to no one and neither does RACHELALEXANDRA'S. if they ever meet they will both think that they are going to win the race ahead of time.
Gee, for some reason Life Is Sweet was good enough to face the boys in the Hollywood Gold Cup but Zenyatta wasn't up to it (connections include the trainer). :confused: The back seat is exactly where they put her. She has 3 races left this year to prove she is HOY (not a lifetime achievment award). She has to run in the Pac Classic, go find Rachel somewhere (I do believe that Jess will be there if Moss tells him where) and then the BC Classic - no Ladie's crap. Without those 3 races she has no prayer of HOY. Right now, in 2009, she has raced in May, June and August with 2 G-I wins at 8.5F and 9F. Gio Ponti has accomplished a lot more at this point.

[bisket]

Gee, for some reason Life Is Sweet was good enough to face the boys in the Hollywood Gold Cup but Zenyatta wasn't up to it (connections include the trainer). :confused: The back seat is exactly where they put her. She has 3 races left this year to prove she is HOY (not a lifetime achievment award). She has to run in the Pac Classic, go find Rachel somewhere (I do believe that Jess will be there if Moss tells him where) and then the BC Classic - no Ladie's crap. Without those 3 races she has no prayer of HOY. Right now, in 2009, she has raced in May, June and August with 2 G-I wins at 8.5F and 9F. Gio Ponti has accomplished a lot more at this point.
if ponti runs and wins the classic he may very well be hoy!!!

[Tom]

Turning for home, I said no way she would make it.

At the wire, I said, Bravo! baby! You are one determined mare.

[Robert Fischer]

if ponti runs and wins the classic he may very well be hoy!!!

He would deserve it. The award is supposed to be based on accomplishments. Not talent or starpower.

There is really no reason this shouldn't be a historically great Classic.
The potential for all 3 to battle with 3 or so of the top intermediate distance Euros and then an assortment of our best other older and 3yos is on the table all we need is Don King

[delayjf]

So far as who is best, Z or RA, if they met on the synthetic, RA's muscle conditioning would probably put her at a bit of a disadvantage, but she could likely run a bit off her top and still handle Z....going the other way, to dirt, Z would have no chance.....say, maybe a slight chance if the field was small, otherwise, she's out in the parking lot hoping to rally from there....impossible.

Until she runs the distance, I'm not convinced that RA is at her best at 1 1/4. MTB was getting to her at 1 3/16 Preakness, that last 1/16 can be a heart breaker.

[cmoore]

Let's see if I understand pace. If the horses run slow up front (because they are slow), and then a horse that should demolish them barely gets up, that's a good race? Closers don't run lower numbers in slow paced races; the E horses, given they have any talent whatsoever, are supposed to run better because they are comfortable. In this case, you could put most of those in the race today out there in the most comfortable situation possible, and they still wouldn't be able to beat any real quality horses.

And everyone keeps talking about her amazing come home times today. It's because the pace was slow. Just like an E horse that gets to save his energy, she saved hers.

Very unimpressive.

You need to look over results more..Horses on the lead all alone running slow fractions almost always have the advantage late in a race. Closers have to make up ground after 3/4 or more of the race has already been run. Which takes more energy then a front runner walking to the lead and controlling the pace.

[Waquoit]

Zenyatta was all out to beat a 5YO mare who is still eligible for a NW3. Rachel won the Preakness and has beaten the Derby and Belmont winners twice. What am I missing?

[joanied]

WOW...opinions abound :) and most are really good ones...whether you cheer her or jeer her...opinions abound.

So, not to repeat so much of what has already been said... first, my reaction to Z's win ; :jump: :jump: :ThmbUp: :jump: :jump: ...she won, and that's the bottom line...at least for now.

She sure didn't disappoint during the post parade...if she ever stops doing her little war dance, we'll be in deep trouble :D ...
no one can deny her last 1/4... the mare moves so gracefully and has such a long effortless stride, you just don't realize how fast she's going...and that gave me heart failure on Sunday... I started yelling at Mike to go,go,go about 2 seconds before he went, went, went...aarrggghhh...quit that Mikey...had he waited another half second, Z would have prob'ly lost, through no fualt of her own...you know I love Mike Smith...but, geeze, does he have to cut it that close:( ...me thinks he may have to start wearing a stop watch ;) ...but, he knows he made a bit of a boo-boo and I doubt he'll do that again...

Now we all know our time of Z is coming to an end...two, maybe three more races, then it's off to what I would think will be a brilliant broodmare career....I hope she teaches all her foals how to 'dance' :ThmbUp: ...meantime, I hope her next dance is in the Pacific...Sherriff's & Moss must understand that following the exact same route as last year won't get thm top honors...so unless they are happy to retire her undefeated and call it good, she's gonna have to go against the boys... and you can bet, if the BC Classic comes up as, in their minds, too tough...she'll go in the Distaff...but, hey, we all know that, don't we.

The thing is...and Dan G and a few others said this pretty well...enjoy Zenyatta, cherish every moment, quit bashing her for this or that because the mare, if nothing else, has prooven she's among the best...remember, most often, an exceptional horse will make the competition look less than they really are... we have had exceptional horses stay at home or pretty close to home and yet no one wants to bash them for not stepping up...

Any Grade 1 horse that dances every dance and attains a record as Zenyatta has...should be admired and cherished.

The one thing that I still don't get is...Moss didn't vote for the synthetic sufaces and says he doesn't like them , ala Jackson...yet here is is running everything he has on the stuff...am I missin' somethin' :confused:

Anyway....Zenyatta:ThmbUp: :jump: :ThmbUp:

[cmoore]

Without trying to take anything away from the Quality of Zenyatta, I find it amusing how some would rationalize her race yesterday as some fantastic feat of strength and stamina....

If one puts those 6-second spits into x4, that would only equal a 24 sec last 1/4.....A swift closing fraction I suppose, but not the wonder close of all time....

Top quality harness horses can do 25 and change off of a slow pace such as we witnessed in yesterdays affair....And Zenyatta's opening split was no eye opener at that either....A decent harness horse, as well, could've beaten her to the first 1/4 in that race....

So Zenyatta keeps her win streak in tact, and that is great for her and for her fans, and for racing, but, this was definitely not her greatest race (that is all I am saying), in fact it was an ez race for her and yet she was lucky to win it.....At 1/5 on the tote, not impressive at all, imo....especially given the field she had to beat....(tomato cans..haha)

Zenyatta is a "one dimension" racer, and swift last fractions are the norm for these ...That is what I saw, and that is what she did and nothing more.....Sure she closed swiftly, but that is how it works with the "one-run" wonders....

Zenyatta, I hope you enjoyed your well deserved "day-off"......I know you can do better....And I hope you do.....

P.S.... Zenyatta, Rachel would've left you in the dust, and you could've never closed enough to catch her, imo....

best,
If Rachel was on the front end in that race...Mike Smith would of made his move much earlier imo..

[FenceBored]

The one thing that I still don't get is...Moss didn't vote for the synthetic sufaces and says he doesn't like them , ala Jackson...yet here is is running everything he has on the stuff...am I missin' somethin' :confused:

Anyway....Zenyatta:ThmbUp: :jump: :ThmbUp:

I think he has said that he likes to be there in person when his horses run. So, living in L.A., unless he wants to run only turf horses (does he even have one) he's going to have to run his horses on synthetics. Said on TVG last night that they've only missed one of Zenyatta's races, last year's Vanity. He and his wife were out of the country.

On a separate topic, will Del Mar send me a gift for not contributing to the negative Show pool?:)

[Java Gold@TFT]

JoanieD, seriously? "danced every dance"? Her year started on May 23rd and included one race a month later and one race 7weeks after that. She had the opportunity to dance in May at Churchill but it rained. She had the opportunity to take on the boys in the Hollywood Gold Cup like her stablemate but Moss passed on that too. Somehow Life Is Sweet managed to race in the HGC and still be in the field for both of Zenyatta's last two races. There have been at least a dozen G-I and G-II races accross the country for 3 & up F&M's but she has only danced in 3 at her home track. That is hardly dancing every dance. Maybe you meant that she won the few races she was enterred in but she has hardly been involved in 'every dance'.

Rachel on the other hand raced in Feb, March, April, twice in May, July and August at 6 differnt tracks, 6 different states and 6 G-I's or G-II's. Now that is the definition of dancing every dance.

Again, not bashing the horse, just her management.

P.S. I didn't take offense to the Boys comment. I just need to use more emoticons when I get sarcastic as it doesn't come accross well on the keyboard.

[joanied]

I think he has said that he likes to be there in person when his horses run. So, living in L.A., unless he wants to run only turf horses (does he even have one) he's going to have to run his horses on synthetics. Said on TVG last night that they've only missed one of Zenyatta's races, last year's Vanity. He and his wife were out of the country.

On a separate topic, will Del Mar send me a gift for not contributing to the negative Show pool?:)

Well, being out of the country last year was up to them... but, really, these folks have money...ya think they can't afford to fly to any track in America? If they choose to keep Z in CA...fine...their choice...but to say they keep her there because they want to see all her races is a cop-out...they can afford plane tickets:)

[Relwob Owner]

Who has RA run against Big Drama who came back lost to Soul Warrior ,Munnings A Sprinter ,Summer BIrd a plodder ,and A average Mine That bird,,,oops i forgot tha big field she beat in the mother goose

While not everyone views them as the ultimate indicator of things, the Beyer speed figures(and I would think any speed figures) pretty much make it clear that Rachel is just plain faster.....

[joanied]

JoanieD, seriously? "danced every dance"? Her year started on May 23rd and included one race a month later and one race 7weeks after that. She had the opportunity to dance in May at Churchill but it rained. She had the opportunity to take on the boys in the Hollywood Gold Cup like her stablemate but Moss passed on that too. Somehow Life Is Sweet managed to race in the HGC and still be in the field for both of Zenyatta's last two races. There have been at least a dozen G-I and G-II races accross the country for 3 & up F&M's but she has only danced in 3 at her home track. That is hardly dancing every dance. Maybe you meant that she won the few races she was enterred in but she has hardly been involved in 'every dance'.

Rachel on the other hand raced in Feb, March, April, twice in May, July and August at 6 differnt tracks, 6 different states and 6 G-I's or G-II's. Now that is the definition of dancing every dance.

Again, not bashing the horse, just her management.

P.S. I didn't take offense to the Boys comment. I just need to use more emoticons when I get sarcastic as it doesn't come accross well on the keyboard.

OK, JavaG...you did mis read my saying she danced every dance...I guess I should have said, "she danced every dance they put her in"... You can't know how bummed I am that they have chosen such a 'sparse' campaign for her...a big, strong, sound, healthy, happy mare...she should have been raced more...I agree 100%...

but, in my post, I did not mention Rachel...because I didn't even want to hint at comparing their individual campaigns...no doubt, RA has done way, way, waaaaaaay more than Zenyatta...but again, Java...I did not intend on any comparison's for my post...

and I often wonder why they feel it's OK to run Life is Sweet so much more often than Z...and will always wonder why they didn't enter Z in the in the Gold CUP along with Life is Sweet...what a dynamite double that woulda been...
well...water under the bridge, eh:) ...and you can bash Z's managment as much as you'd like, JavaG...I hate to feel this way, but I am among the many that feel they are just playing it all way too close to the vest...and it's gonna mess up her chapter in the next book of Top 100 Thoroughbreds!!

Rememeber the song..."Bad boys, bad boys, what ya gonna do...what ya gonna do when they come for you"....:D

[ryanxpress]

Not so fast..who has RA beat Big Drama who came back and lost to Soul Warrior,,Munnings whos a sprinter and Summer Bird a Harness plodder,damn it i forgot that big field she beat in the MOther Goose,,Come on RA has beaten world beaters either

[CBedo]

Horses on the lead all alone running slow fractions almost always have the advantage late in a race. Closers have to make up ground after 3/4 or more of the race has already been run. Which takes more energy then a front runner walking to the lead and controlling the pace.FAST horses on the lead alone running slow fractions almost always have the advantage late in a race. SLOW horses on the lead alone running the same fractions have still used up a higher percentage of their energy and will finish up the track versus better horses.

[CBedo]

What was Zenyatta's Beyer yesterday? Anyone seen it?

[GMB@BP]

What was Zenyatta's Beyer yesterday? Anyone seen it?

99 but it had to be a complete guess because that would give cheap claimers a 96 the race after and that aint possible.

[CincyHorseplayer]

You need to look over results more..Horses on the lead all alone running slow fractions almost always have the advantage late in a race. Closers have to make up ground after 3/4 or more of the race has already been run. Which takes more energy then a front runner walking to the lead and controlling the pace.

Back up a second Cmoore and let's both look at this.

You're trying to apply a dirt analysis to a surface whose nature is in stark contrast to dirt.If this had been run on dirt the accomplishment would have been remarkable.But given that it was run on synthetic,it really isn't all that remarkable.These races play more like turf than dirt.And in light of the fact that she barely edged out a recent N2X winner the fractions aren't all that awe inspiring,especially when you consider the 3 route winners on the day were 9/11length,7/7.5 lengths,and 5/6.5 lengths at the 1st call yesterday.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Not so fast..who has RA beat Big Drama who came back and lost to Soul Warrior,,Munnings whos a sprinter and Summer Bird a Harness plodder,damn it i forgot that big field she beat in the MOther Goose,,Come on RA has beaten world beaters either

You certainly are either kidding or delusional. So far this year Rachel has beaten the horses who have won these races:

G-I's: Kentucky Derby, Belmont, SA Derby, Secretariat, Acorn, Test

G-II's: Swale, Long Branch, La Derby, Ark Derby, Ill Derby, San Felipe, Tom Fool, Woody Stephens

Numerous other rwinners of G-III's

That's over a dozen winners of G-I and G-II races both before Rachel beat them and then after she beat them. So your point must be that the 6 horses she has beaten this year who won other Grade-I races must all be crap somehow. Get a life. Now you can list the accomplishments of the horses who have followed Zenyatta to the finsh line this year (2009).

[cmoore]

FAST horses on the lead alone running slow fractions almost always have the advantage late in a race. SLOW horses on the lead alone running the same fractions have still used up a higher percentage of their energy and will finish up the track versus better horses.

A closer wants the front runners to have as less energy left late in the race to over come them..A 113.64 does not do that no matter by how much she out classes them..A slow pace will hurt a dominant closer.

[Java Gold@TFT]

JoanieD, I only brought up Rachel's year because it was more in line with a statement like dance every dance. I wsan't trying to start the Z-RA debate over even though my last post in this thread may not indicate that. Like you, I just wish she would be allowed to dance evry dance or at least some of them. So far she hasn't faced more than 6 overmatched 'rivals' this year. Bring on Rail Trip in a few weeks unless Sunday's race scared Moss too much. It is 10F, isn't it? That's what people around here keep saying she needs so let them step it up finally.

BTW, the weakest excuse since the detention barn thing is that they can't run against Rachel because she keeps running in 3yo races. What a joke. Hold a press conference in June and say we are going in the $1M Delaware H and if Rachel wants a piece then they know where to find us. But alas no. She goes back to the Hirsch to face the biggest field she has this year.

[senortout]

A closer wants the front runners to have as less energy left late in the race to over come them..A 113.64 does not do that no matter by how much she out classes them..A slow pace will hurt a dominant closer.


I'm thinkin' here the dominant closer should be naturally up closer to a slow pace, all other things being equal....the late kick could then be produced and it would devastate....otherwise, your closer is over the top and must be ruled out.

Z was only trailing by 8 or 9 when she put in her move.....what made it so durn close was that extremely wide move....take another look...everyone in contention was saving ground a bit.

[Cat Thief]

I like the little dance Zeyatta does. She is a thing of beauty.

[Cat Thief]

For some reason I am not too fond of Mike Smith's riding the last little while. Maybe it is just me but he seems to be insecure

[cmoore]

I'm thinkin' here the dominant closer should be naturally up closer to a slow pace, all other things being equal....the late kick could then be produced and it would devastate....otherwise, your closer is over the top and must be ruled out.

Z was only trailing by 8 or 9 when she put in her move.....what made it so durn close was that extremely wide move....take another look...everyone in contention was saving ground a bit.

I got a feeling next time she runs. Mike will start her engine a little sooner and she will win by at least 3 lengths..That's my prediction and I'm sticken to it.;)

[Java Gold@TFT]

I got a feeling next time she runs. Mike will start her engine a little sooner and she will win by at least 3 lengths..That's my prediction and I'm sticken to it.;)
Better hope her next start isn't in the Pac Classic if you are going to stick to it. ;)

[LottaKash]

If Rachel was on the front end in that race...Mike Smith would of made his move much earlier imo..

And, I still don't believe it would be enough, because Rachel knows how to finish her race with the gusto and heart as well as any champion could.....That would spell the difference, imo...

It is too bad the connections for both of these great girls don't see it the way us players do....I would love to see the real truth of the matter....I guess we will never know tho....too bad for racing.....

best,

[GaryG]

Rachel is the superior filly and I am pretty sure Mr. Moss knows it. She would clean Zenyatta's clock under almost any circumstances. It would take a man among men to admit as much about his own filly, but that just doesn't happen. They will continue to dance around and probably retire Z after the BC.

[classhandicapper]

many of her works are on you tube. every one of them she starts off behind her workmate and in the stretch she overtakes her workmate. she's just doing what she's taught as far as the slow early fractions.

I agree with you. Many horses are like that. That's one reason why deep closers tend to be so vulnerable to slow paces (especially on dirt). They don't adjust well.

On the flip side, when I see a horse like that run a ridiculously slow first quarter relative to its ability, I have to suspect it didn't distribute its energy very well if the goal was to run as fast as possible overall.

If it has routinely run faster early in the past without any downside impact to its kick, it might be a good idea to break the horse's (or jockey's) habit of simply dropping back to last no matter what the pace and instead trying to get the horse to run it's own race and wind up somewhere in the back, but at a more even pace.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Rachel is the superior filly and I am pretty sure Mr. Moss knows it. She would clean Zenyatta's clock under almost any circumstances. It would take a man among men to admit as much about his own filly, but that just doesn't happen. They will continue to dance around and probably retire Z after the BC.
I don't know about Rachel cleaning Zenyatta's clock. Rachel has ran just about as fast as she could've run in the Preakness and Haskell. They were both fantastic races by her, but put in some tougher horses like Zenyatta and the final margin will be very close. All I'm saying is Mike Smith only asks Zenyatta enough to win, she couldve won all of her races by much larger margins if she was all out. Zenyatta listens to her jockey so well and doesn't run her hardest until REALLY asked, like this last race. Rachel will run her hardest whether you ask her or not...she probably wouldve won the haskell by the same margin with just mild urging from Calvin.

Nobody really knows who is the better female, but many people like to lean strongly in one direction. I think it is almost a toss up, but would bet Zenyatta to win by a head if I was forced to bet and conditions were fair. Her strides are twice as long as everyone else and would be tough to outkick down the stretch.

[classhandicapper]

Thinking along these lines.....Did not most of us think Life Is Sweet the main danger in there?....the biggest puzzle is what happened to her late kick?...

I think you are making the point I have been making, but from another direction.

IMO, Life is Sweet looked like the 2nd most likely winner. She was also way back in the pack early, but she couldn't even get close to the 2nd and 3rd place finishers who were having an easy time of it during the middle part of the race. I think that's telling you how superior Zenyatta was to LIS to run that amazing last 5/16ths and get up.

As handicappers, we are used to great horses running fast speed figures or winning by huge margins. However, both of those are very unlikely in the slow paced races we often see on turf and most synthetics.

I'm not saying I have the perfect method for measuring turf and synthetic ability. In fact, I would say I'm rather pedestrian at measuring ability on both surfaces. I just know speed figures and winning margins while useful, are not comparable to dirt. Late speed etc... are critical.

So if you want to say that Zenyatta is not as good as Rachel is on dirt, I would tend to agree. But I think Zenyatta is getting a bum rap because her speed figures aren't super fast, her margins aren't huge, and she came along in a year when we could be witnessing the greatest dirt filly of all time. She was spectacular yesterday given that setup. It's no accident she keeps winning.

[KingChas]

Zenyatta wins by a neck,Mike Smith says I got cocky I waited to long.
The whole California nation agrees.
Rachel from the 13 hole in The Preakness pushed the entire race wins by 1 length over a closing MTB.
Borel claims fillie didn't handle the track well.
People say he's making an excuse.For what winning?

My take on these two great fillies.
If Zenyatta looks you in the eye in the stretch your done.
Rachel never has been looked in the eye in the stretch.

Your guess is as good as mine? :ThmbUp:

[WinterTriangle]

For some reason I am not too fond of Mike Smith's riding the last little while. Maybe it is just me but he seems to be insecure

I've had that same feeling. There is something about him, not insecure, just complacency setting in?

I do not feel as if he would have gone for that *threading the needle on the rail* thing Borel did with MTB in the Derby, which is inherently quite dangerous.

I look for different things in an airplane pilot than I do in a jockey. In a small plane, give me Smith not Borel. :)

[eastie]

two quick things...
1. Zen's last 1/16 was around 5 seconds yesterday if my addition is right. that is flying no matter how you look at it.
2. Once again, if you want to be the best, you have to Beat the best. until she beats Zen, Zen is still the undefeated champion of the world. I'm sure Zenyatta would wave to Rachel on the way by if they ever meet.

[KingChas]

Are your alibis for Mike Smith's ride or Zenyatta's neck win? :confused:

[v j stauffer]

two quick things...
1. Zen's last 1/16 was around 5 seconds yesterday if my addition is right. that is flying no matter how you look at it.
2. Once again, if you want to be the best, you have to Beat the best. until she beats Zen, Zen is still the undefeated champion of the world. I'm sure Zenyatta would wave to Rachel on the way by if they ever meet.

Sharp post.

[Irish Boy]

It wasn't that long ago that RA needed to hang on for dear life against Mine That Bird at 9.5F. That race goes the next half furlong and she doesn't win that one. I think Mine That Bird's Preakness is probably the absolute floor you would see from Zenyatta on any given day, and it seems that might be enough to win at the classic distance, even on dirt.

[cj]

Yeah, Hallowed Dreams was a real champ too.

[cj]

It wasn't that long ago that RA needed to hang on for dear life against Mine That Bird at 9.5F. That race goes the next half furlong and she doesn't win that one. I think Mine That Bird's Preakness is probably the absolute floor you would see from Zenyatta on any given day, and it seems that might be enough to win at the classic distance, even on dirt.

I always love that analogy. Jockeys don't ride races to see how the horse would do at a half furlong further.

[maryforney]

Larry Zap brings you a fans' eye view of the great race mare Zenyatta winning the 2009 Grade 1 Clement L. Hirsch Stakes at beautifull Del Mar Racetrack:

http://maryforney.blogspot.com/2009/08/zap-of-week-zenyatta-remains-perfect.html

[eastie]

Larry Zap brings you a fans' eye view of the great race mare Zenyatta winning the 2009 Grade 1 Clement L. Hirsch Stakes at beautifull Del Mar Racetrack:

http://maryforney.blogspot.com/2009/08/zap-of-week-zenyatta-remains-perfect.html



thanks Mary, that was awesome. i really liked how she went and looked at the toteboard after the race to see what she paid. that burst of speed for the win was something to behold.

[JustRalph]

I think the two distinctly different running styles gives Rachel a leg up.

The fact that Rachel was able to rate nicely last out.........is a factor too....

[statik27]

Yeah, Hallowed Dreams was a real champ too.


Hallowed Dreams Graded stakes wins = 0

Zenyatta Graded stakes wins= 10 + eclipse award...

Yeah I totally see the parallel.

Seriously though, I'm curious, what exactly does a horse do to qualify as a "Tomato Can"? There we're three graded stakes winners in the Hirsch on sunday.
Life is Sweet reeled off three in a row this spring and was coming off of a 3rd place finish against the boys in the HOL gold cup, a race which saw the 10th place finisher comeback to win the GR1 Whitney in his next start and the 6th place finisher winning the GR2 San Diego handicap. Yeah total canned food.

Lethal Heat is a multiple graded stakes winner and also beat the boys last summer over the DMR strip, she loves that surface and it showed on sunday.

Anabaa's Creation is a recent import into the barn of Canani, the whole planet knows how good he is with those older Euro's. After an impressive first out states side win, the euro bounce set in and she finished 5th in her next start. There was a good little buzz about this horse coming into the race because she'd been working up a storm. Nothing surprising about the way she ran.

Add a slow pace and a less then perfectly timed ride and wah lah, close finish. As for the 99 beyer, they throw darts to get those things on the synthetic and are notoriously slower then dirt beyers. She ran a 104 over the dirt in only her 4th start, that was a 10 pt jump from her previous start over the synthetic.

We can argue all day between RA and Z, but please, lets give them the due they deserve.

[GMB@BP]

I think you are making the point I have been making, but from another direction.

IMO, Life is Sweet looked like the 2nd most likely winner. She was also way back in the pack early, but she couldn't even get close to the 2nd and 3rd place finishers who were having an easy time of it during the middle part of the race. I think that's telling you how superior Zenyatta was to LIS to run that amazing last 5/16ths and get up.

As handicappers, we are used to great horses running fast speed figures or winning by huge margins. However, both of those are very unlikely in the slow paced races we often see on turf and most synthetics.

I'm not saying I have the perfect method for measuring turf and synthetic ability. In fact, I would say I'm rather pedestrian at measuring ability on both surfaces. I just know speed figures and winning margins while useful, are not comparable to dirt. Late speed etc... are critical.

So if you want to say that Zenyatta is not as good as Rachel is on dirt, I would tend to agree. But I think Zenyatta is getting a bum rap because her speed figures aren't super fast, her margins aren't huge, and she came along in a year when we could be witnessing the greatest dirt filly of all time. She was spectacular yesterday given that setup. It's no accident she keeps winning.

great post.

I made the point minutes after the race as to what happened to LIS.

Margins and figures are useless without the pace component addition on turf and syn. Beyer cut this race loose, it should have been about 90 at most, he has to guess at the figures on syn.

[GMB@BP]

I've had that same feeling. There is something about him, not insecure, just complacency setting in?

I do not feel as if he would have gone for that *threading the needle on the rail* thing Borel did with MTB in the Derby, which is inherently quite dangerous.

I look for different things in an airplane pilot than I do in a jockey. In a small plane, give me Smith not Borel. :)

the whole internet has said he sucked since 1995, this is nothing new. Its amazing how lucky one guy can be.

[speed]

Sharp post.


But his math not as sharp


Hope you are feeling great Vic

Mike

[ryanxpress]

Hmm..First and foremost i have a a life and its better then the one you have..D'Tara won the belmont,who cares who won the belmont.Gato del Sol won the derby big deal..point is just because you win the belmont or derby or any grade 1 stakes race doesnt make you a great horse..She has beaten average horses..thats the bottom line...Check whos running in the first race tomorrow at Spa STONE LEGACY thats who RA has run against..Munnings hmmmm has he ever won past 7f...This years test stakes worst ever..MIne That Bird has gotten worst every race ..You telling me she beat horses that have won stakes races this year means nothing..AVERAGE HORSES WIN STAKES RACES ALL THE TIME...dUMMY

[Pace Cap'n]

AVERAGE HORSES WIN STAKES RACES ALL THE TIME...dUMMY

Is that a salutation or a signature?

[CincyHorseplayer]

Hallowed Dreams Graded stakes wins = 0

Zenyatta Graded stakes wins= 10 + eclipse award...

Yeah I totally see the parallel.

Seriously though, I'm curious, what exactly does a horse do to qualify as a "Tomato Can"? There we're three graded stakes winners in the Hirsch on sunday.
Life is Sweet reeled off three in a row this spring and was coming off of a 3rd place finish against the boys in the HOL gold cup, a race which saw the 10th place finisher comeback to win the GR1 Whitney in his next start and the 6th place finisher winning the GR2 San Diego handicap. Yeah total canned food.

Lethal Heat is a multiple graded stakes winner and also beat the boys last summer over the DMR strip, she loves that surface and it showed on sunday.

Anabaa's Creation is a recent import into the barn of Canani, the whole planet knows how good he is with those older Euro's. After an impressive first out states side win, the euro bounce set in and she finished 5th in her next start. There was a good little buzz about this horse coming into the race because she'd been working up a storm. Nothing surprising about the way she ran.

Add a slow pace and a less then perfectly timed ride and wah lah, close finish. As for the 99 beyer, they throw darts to get those things on the synthetic and are notoriously slower then dirt beyers. She ran a 104 over the dirt in only her 4th start, that was a 10 pt jump from her previous start over the synthetic.

We can argue all day between RA and Z, but please, lets give them the due they deserve.

First off a slow pace might mean something in dirt racing,as it affects a closer,but as synthetics dominantly play like turf it's a moot point.If they race like they're in Europe,til the last 1/4,then they handicap themselves.

And go ahead and throw away your Canani trainer angle,that's tinfoil.The horse just won a N2X and nearly beat the "Great One".

Sorry but a deep closer on a newly introduced surface is not the new "Gold" standard for champions.

[ryanxpress]

A greeting to That Overrated JAVAGOLD

[Java Gold@TFT]

Is that a salutation or a signature?
I'm guessing the latter. :lol:

[ryanxpress]

Mr.Java Gold....Greatness is measured by competition....

[ryanxpress]

:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm guessing the latter. :lol:
Whats funny is the horses she beaten :lol: :lol: :lol: ,,,,hhhmmm those are some tough colts... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Java Gold@TFT]

Mr.Java Gold....Greatness is measured by competition....
OK, so the overrated JavaGold is over rated because in one race he beat Alysheba, Bet Twice Gulch, Polish Navy and others during a string of 5 staright G-I's of which 4 were against older horses. Yep, overrated, no competition.

trust me, this will be thelast response from me. PA has always asked that people don't call names or point out others inherent flaws. There are way to many more knowledgeable racing fans here than to be bothered with ill informed trolls. I'll pay attention to people who have earned respect for their informed opinions and actually answer others debates with facts. I asked you to come up with Zenyatta's great comeptition this year but you ignored that and trashed the long list of graded stakes winners that Rachel has beaten this year. Opinions are like sphinkters - everyone has one but they don't all smell real good.

[ryanxpress]

I agree about Zenyatta's competition 100% there weak..As for Java Gold Actually i thought he was very underrated...a great horse and like you said the horses he beat were some great competitors which made him even better..I respect your opinion...and lets leave it at that..

[Imriledup]

OK, A new suggestion. Let's all stop the idea of a Rachel-Zenyatta match race because of the inherent difference in their running style. Let's setup a Zenyatta-Mine That Bird match race. They could run 10F with the opening half going in 55 seconds and the last 1/8th in 10 flat. Zenyatta has the potential to get a win over a male and MTB has the potential to actually WIN another race this year. It's the perfect scenario because Chip Woolley said this morning that he is considering the Goodwood after the Travers so he's not afraind of poly after the races at WO last year. Even better, if Chip does go to the Goodwood then put Zenyatta in there to and see which one wants to be last the most down the backstretch. I'll watch.

People who think Zenyatta is better than Rachel want a match race and vice versa, this needs to be settled once and for all.

As far as the different running styles go, well, that's Zenyatta's problem, if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best. I think we all know that Rachel is the far superior horse and the only way Zenyatta beats her is if some rabbit compromises Rachels chances by going very fast early and burning Rachel up. If Z needs a 'bodyguard' to help her beat Rachel, than i think Rachel is the better horse and Zenyatta would only win if another horse did something stupid (like get in a duel with Rachel).

[Imriledup]

two quick things...
1. Zen's last 1/16 was around 5 seconds yesterday if my addition is right. that is flying no matter how you look at it.
2. Once again, if you want to be the best, you have to Beat the best. until she beats Zen, Zen is still the undefeated champion of the world. I'm sure Zenyatta would wave to Rachel on the way by if they ever meet.

#2 is pretty funny. :lol:

[Java Gold@TFT]

People who think Zenyatta is better than Rachel want a match race and vice versa, this needs to be settled once and for all.

As far as the different running styles go, well, that's Zenyatta's problem, if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best. I think we all know that Rachel is the far superior horse and the only way Zenyatta beats her is if some rabbit compromises Rachels chances by going very fast early and burning Rachel up. If Z needs a 'bodyguard' to help her beat Rachel, than i think Rachel is the better horse and Zenyatta would only win if another horse did something stupid (like get in a duel with Rachel).
I think that Rachel proved in the Mother Goose that she can't be baited into an unnecesary speed duel.

[Imriledup]

I think that Rachel proved in the Mother Goose that she can't be baited into an unnecesary speed duel.

If Rachel Can't be baited, i'm not sure how Zenyatta is going to win. Maybe that's why Moss and Shirreffs are in hiding.

[statik27]

First off a slow pace might mean something in dirt racing,as it affects a closer,but as synthetics dominantly play like turf it's a moot point.If they race like they're in Europe,til the last 1/4,then they handicap themselves.

And go ahead and throw away your Canani trainer angle,that's tinfoil.The horse just won a N2X and nearly beat the "Great One".

Sorry but a deep closer on a newly introduced surface is not the new "Gold" standard for champions.

Please, have you even watched this race? In a turf or euro race a slow pace would result in a tightly packed field, which is not the case here. Z came from 10+ back and won by a head thanx to a sub 23 second last qtr.

As for N2X mare, we can agree to disagree, but as far as I know races aren't decided by the condition book. Canani is a master with those euro horses and the filly faced some tough customers in France which included multiple group placings and she was only beaten 2L in the french oaks. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but she's still a class filly and should do well here in the states.

[JustRalph]

If Rachel Can't be baited, i'm not sure how Zenyatta is going to win. Maybe that's why Moss and Shirreffs are in hiding.

They are in their comfort zone alright. But put yourself in their shoes. They have home field advantage coming up......they can't control what goes on on the other end of the country and they have a dynamite horse that just slowly but surely keeps making them a little richer.........why not sit on your ass and enjoy it? Jerry Moss is just going to plow the money Zenyatta makes back into other horses........I don't think he is upgrading his produce every time she wins. He doesn't worry about eating off of her winnings so what the hell...........

I wouldn't miss another mating season with her though..........he ain't no spring chicken and I would be looking forward about 4 yrs or so to a colt named "Zenyatta's Boy" or such.......... Life is good for the Zenyatta Connections. No matter what happens.

[eastie]

But his math not as sharp


Hope you are feeling great Vic

Mike

Well Mike , why don't you explain how fast her last 1/16 was ? the mile was 1:37 3/5.....she was 4 1/2 lengths behind. the final time was 1:43 3/5. The last 1/16 went in 6, and she closed 4 1/2 lengths. That is slightly over 5 seconds....her last 5/16 was in 28 and change, which is rolling , by the way.
How many horses win with that trip at Del Mar ?

[Java Gold@TFT]

How many horses win with that trip at Del Mar ?
Eastie, as far as the trip. Look at the 3 races run around 2 turns at Del Mar on Sunday. Down the backstretch the 3 eventual winners were last, last and 2nd to last. Granted the closing times are different but you can't compare times for $25K maiden claimers and $16K claimers to a G-I stakes. The trips though were basically similar.

Look at the comments for the 3rd, 7th and 8th.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/instant_pdf.cgi?type=inc&country=USA&track=DMR&date=2009-08-09&race=0

They all started to make their moves on the 2nd turn, 2 were fanned wide while one split horses but then went wide in the stretch. Very similar trips if you ignore the times.

[DanG]

Thank goodness for these two ladies creating interest. There must be 400+ posts all related to one / or both of these class animals. Following the brilliant Zarkava this is one impressive run for the elite females in our sport.

http://blog.al.com/birmingham-news-sports/2009/05/large_Rachel%20Alexandra.jpg

[eastie]

talk about a picture that's worth a thousand words.....holy knockout batman!

[DanG]

talk about a picture that's worth a thousand words.....holy knockout batman!

Well put East; a friend went to Monmouth and he said in person Rachel REALLY has the perfect blend of muscle, balance and conformation. We can (and no doubt will) debate her merits, but if she doesn’t get your blood pumping it might be time to sack racing and take up Mahjong.

BTW: I saw Zenyatta in person and from purely a physical perspective she is as imposing & downright intimidating a mare as I have ever seen in person.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/3024396234_c491b53ac9.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif
http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

[joanied]

DanG...thanks for posting the photos...great stuff:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: I don't know which one gives me more goosebumps...

[FenceBored]

DanG...thanks for posting the photos...great stuff:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: I don't know which one gives me more goosebumps...

I vote for the Rachel picture. The stripes on the grooms shirt pull my eye away from Zenyatta. Now a picture of her doing her Fargo strut!


xtj4KTFBbKg

versus

ZfXktmt0IaE

[joanied]

The Zenyatta Strut...I love that:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: ...thanks for the video... Bob Seger said it well in a song..."I love to watch her strut" :jump: :jump: :jump:

I would love to be the person that gets to take care of Zenyatta once she becomes a broodmare...most broodmares endear themselves to the folks that take care of them...there is something very special about a good broodmare...and with her 'personality'...Z is going to be a fabulous, endearing broodmare.
You can almost bet that her babies will be strutting too...
:) :) :)

[DJofSD]

An obvious fit and ready horse. If she were a dressage prospect, I'd fault her. But as a race horse, two thumbs up, way up.

[Cat Thief]

I would not "diss" Hallowed Dreams. That horse won alot of races. Off the top of my head I'm not sure but at least 16 and it doesn't matter where the hell she come from. It is not easy to win races.

[WinterTriangle]

BUMP!

God, I got such a kick out of reading thru this old topic during Zenyatta's last race.

It seems that many really owe her an apology.

Owe Life is Sweet an apology, too, you know, that allowance horse.

Oh, who cares, those who wagered made $$$$$ ---- and then again in the double.

Not all *opinions* make MONEY. (many of mine don't either. ;) )