Another horse being run into the ground...

[Bubbles]

Running at Saratoga Monday is a 4-year-old colt named Knife and Fork. Thus far in 2009, the horse has run 16 times, with Monday's fourth being his 17th start in eight months.

I get that some horses are more durable than others, and that the breed used to bang out horses like these at a high rate. The fact is, though, that this is just cruel, especially since he hasn't run particularly well (16 starts, one win, two seconds, one third, less than $2,000 earned per start). Joseph Parker used to train him, but his owners (Happy Hour Farms) switched him to the barn of Patrick Quick, who is a smooth 0-for-43 in 2009.

This grinds my gears. Let the horse be a horse for once, and quit running him twice a month when it will do no good for anyone in the long run. :bang:

[Tom Barrister]

This is common in the bottom-rung claimers (not as common at the high-level circuits such as NYRA). Some of those cheap claimers are run every 10 days, until they aren't able to pass a vet inspection.

[macguy]

Running at Saratoga Monday is a 4-year-old colt named Knife and Fork. Thus far in 2009, the horse has run 16 times, with Monday's fourth being his 17th start in eight months.

I get that some horses are more durable than others, and that the breed used to bang out horses like these at a high rate. The fact is, though, that this is just cruel, especially since he hasn't run particularly well (16 starts, one win, two seconds, one third, less than $2,000 earned per start). Joseph Parker used to train him, but his owners (Happy Hour Farms) switched him to the barn of Patrick Quick, who is a smooth 0-for-43 in 2009.

This grinds my gears. Let the horse be a horse for once, and quit running him twice a month when it will do no good for anyone in the long run. :bang:


If you think that's cruel, you should have a look at the Mnr PPs sometime.
The bottom horses out there (which is almost all the horses) often run every two weeks to ten days (as stated above), it's not uncommon to see them running 5th, 7th or even dead last week after week, all year 'round.

[FenceBored]

If you think that's cruel, you should have a look at the Mnr PPs sometime.
The bottom horses out there (which is almost all the horses) often run every two weeks to ten days (as stated above), it's not uncommon to see them running 5th, 7th or even dead last week after week, all year 'round.

The worst are the MC5000 runners with 30+ starts and less than a handful of ITM finishes. What are these guys doing? Do they think the horse is going to suddenly develop some ability? :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

Makes the ill-fated Finallymadeit's 11 times in eight months look like chickenfeed...

[bisket]

look i'm not defending this at all, but you have to take some things into consideration about horse being run like this. races of this nature (bottom level claimers) are there to fill the card. most horse being run like this are there to fill the race, and 3/4's of the time the trainer would :faint: if the horse finshed in the top 3. you'll notice that most times these critters won't have a morning work to there credit for months at a time. basically the works are races. the key to knowing when a horse like this may actually be running in a race the trainer thinks he's got a shot at winning (although for quick this may be never) is when distance and class level are the same as previous wins.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"switched him to the barn of Patrick Quick, who is a smooth 0-for-43 in 2009."
Normally I would have no opinion until I saw the PP's fpr comments line and internal positions, to get a hint if the horse has been struggling or they are waiting for the perfect (for low claimers) setup of pace and trip. But that would mean the horse has to be able to take advantage of their right situation, which wouild be very hard at that record. Unfortunately the new trainer only has 43 starts for like almost 30 weeks, so this one will have to keep running as much as possible to fill spots for the trainer.
Hopefully these races are sprints so not as many furlongs running at near speed!

[bisket]

fron kenwood's post
Normally I would have no opinion until I saw the PP's fpr comments line and internal positions, to get a hint if the horse has been struggling or they are waiting for the perfect (for low claimers) setup of pace and trip. But that would mean the horse has to be able to take advantage of their right situation, which wouild be very hard at that record.


trainer win pctg. goes a little higher on my priority list when handicapping these races.

[WinterTriangle]

Once in a while when I see this I phone and/or email the track where the horse is running. Putting some *attention* on this practice helps some, I think. If not, at least I feel like I spoke up.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Back in the 70's it was a common occurrence for a horse to run 25 times a year.
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1970s;cc=drf1970s;g=drf;xc=1;q1=woodbine; rgn=past%20performances;idno=drf1976052901;didno=d rf1976052901;view=pdf;seq=21;node=drf1976052901%3A 21;passterms=1

Of course, the argument that the breed has gotten weaker may have some merit, as Lasix and other drugs appear to drain horses more. And the fact that today's race horse are the direct offsprings from horses who retired early due to injury in many cases or horses that were bred to be shooting stars, probably means that today's horse is more prone to injury too, or will have an early burnout. As well as being the offspring of horses who benefited from Lasix, etc., today's horse is probably more fragile than ever before.

[ryesteve]

Why is Pat Quick mentioned more prominantly in this thread than the former trainer? Under Quick, this is the horse's 2nd start in 43 days. Anything wrong with that? And in the horse's first start with him, the horse improved significantly and lost in a photo at 19-1.
And before reaching conclusions about the 0-43, take a look at Knife and Fork as an example of the horses he's been given to work with.

[Bubbles]

Ryesteve, I hope you're right, but I'm not entirely sure the new trainer changes anything. Second start in 43 days, yes, but it's also the horse's second start since July 25th, which is still a quick turnaround. Improved in his first start, yes, but that race was a dirt sprint, as were 99% of his prior races (the one outlier is a TURF sprint). This one is a mile and a sixteenth on the grass, which doesn't fit.

Yet again, the fault may rest on the owners, not the trainers, at least in this case. This horse ran FOUR TIMES in June, for Pete's sake. I sure hope that the new trainer changes things and lightens his workload, but I don't think it'll be that easy.

[ryesteve]

Have we REALLY reached the point where a 16 day rest is considered abusive?

Seriously, don't worry about this horse being run into the ground. If anything, Pat babies his horses.

As for this spot not making sense for the horse, you're right, but there are a couple things to consider: it's very hard to find spots for cheap horses during Saratoga. Rather than lay them up for 6 or 7 weeks, you often have to take a spot just to get the horse a race. Secondly, given the weather forecast, there's a good chance that they entered expecting that the race will likely come off the grass.

[bisket]

short then long off a break means quick is trying to get him back into racing shape again. once again bottom level claimers you have to consider their races as works. i don't have his pps, but next out (after this one) may be the race the horse wins. usually a route means they'll be going slow at the beginning so the horse won't have work to keep up. usually after the route the horse will be fit enough to hold his speed for the sprint, which what i'm gathering is his preffered distance. usually bottom level claimers the fresh horse wins. third race off a 43 day break is a fresh horse for these races.

[peakpros]

Running at Saratoga Monday is a 4-year-old colt named Knife and Fork. Thus far in 2009, the horse has run 16 times, with Monday's fourth being his 17th start in eight months.

This grinds my gears. Let the horse be a horse for once, and quit running him twice a month when it will do no good for anyone in the long run. :bang:

Take out 35K from your savings and claim the horse..then you can start paying the 3K a month bills and see how long before you want him on the track.

Its easy to tell an owner what to do when you don't have to worry about meeting expenses.

Is this excessive?...POSSBILE..you and I don't know the horse...maybe he's allot to handle if he doesn't work or race frequently. I don't know and neither do you. So while you have your opinion its based sorely on one fact: 16 starts so far this year.

From his PP and odds in each race I don't think it really has bothered him much. Again, just my opinion.

You can have a horse that has raced 10 times or less this year but has had the ankles or something else tapped numerous times? U think thats better?

[Bubbles]

So let me get this straight here, peakpros. It's okay that this horse ran six times between May 16th and June 28th, finishing third once and otherwise never being beaten by less than half a dozen lengths, because it's a smart financial decision? :confused:

To me, all that does is lessen the quality of your investment. I'm obviously no business or finance student, but let's assume for the moment that the possibilities brought up in this thread are correct, which they may very well be. If a horse's races are being used as workouts, why not ship them to a spot where they have a MUCH better chance of providing a solid return on what has been invested already? No shame in going to a meet a bit further down on the totem pole (Ellis, Philly, etc.) if it means a better chance at making some money.

Obviously it's not as high-profile, but it's pretty clear that this horse needs SOMETHING changed. As ryesteve and bisket have said, maybe the new trainer is on the right track, and I surely hope that's the case.

[WinterTriangle]

Take out 35K from your savings and claim the horse..then you can start paying the 3K a month bills and see how long before you want him on the track.

Its easy to tell an owner what to do when you don't have to worry about meeting expenses.

Tons of businesses fail every year because they're under-capitalized and don't have enough set back to get thru the first 18 months +.

In this business, you are dealing with live animals, not inanimate objects.

IMHO if you have to make *highly questionable* judgement calls, then get into a business where there are not live beings being put at unnecessary risk because of your borderline budget/judgement/judgement skills.

If you do serious damage to your investment, then you lose all your money anyway.

I do respect owners because I see what an up n' down and sometimes heartbreaking business this can be! But the good ones don't grind their investments into the ground, any more than a good business person who owns real estate lets their properties run down trying to "get the last drop of rent" out of it without any expenditure. Slum lords do this. But they don't get any respect for doing so, and I understand why.;)

[kenwoodallpromos]

So let me get this straight here, peakpros. It's okay that this horse ran six times between May 16th and June 28th, finishing third once and otherwise never being beaten by less than half a dozen lengths, because it's a smart financial decision? :confused:

To me, all that does is lessen the quality of your investment. I'm obviously no business or finance student, but let's assume for the moment that the possibilities brought up in this thread are correct, which they may very well be. If a horse's races are being used as workouts, why not ship them to a spot where they have a MUCH better chance of providing a solid return on what has been invested already? No shame in going to a meet a bit further down on the totem pole (Ellis, Philly, etc.) if it means a better chance at making some money.

Obviously it's not as high-profile, but it's pretty clear that this horse needs SOMETHING changed. As ryesteve and bisket have said, maybe the new trainer is on the right track, and I surely hope that's the case.
As I am on redord stating- IMO no thoroughbred should have a combination of any races and/or works over 19 1/2 furlongs within a 30 day period regardless of the situation. That is a subjective opinion based on more than 3 6 1/2f sprint races only in a month, or a combination of even short races and works that adds up to more than that. 2 races of even 1 mile (8f) plus a 3f work equals 19f; 3 6f srints equal 18f; Anymore IMO is too much!!
If you go to Equibase and look up horses with the most wins any given year you will see some that won over 10 and races over 20- but just like in history, these are exceptions. The starts per horse on Jockey Club were never much over 12 average.
"
1955 25,924 31,757 287,775 9.06 11.10 (first Jockey Club recording of Starts per horse)
1960 29,798 37,661 337,060 8.95 11.31
1965 37,386 47,335 406,646 8.59 10.88
1970 47,778 56,676 488,326 8.62 10.22
1975 58,816 68,210 601,780 8.82 10.23
1980 64,506 68,243 593,849 8.70 9.21
1985 82,548 75,687 683,667 9.03 8.28
1990 89,716 79,971 712,494 8.91 7.94
1991 86,937 79,303 693,614 8.75 7.98
1992 83,404 77,712 669,967 8.62 8.03 (starts per horse- never 8 or more since)

[peakpros]

So let me get this straight here, peakpros. It's okay that this horse ran six times between May 16th and June 28th, finishing third once and otherwise never being beaten by less than half a dozen lengths, because it's a smart financial decision? :confused:

To me, all that does is lessen the quality of your investment. I'm obviously no business or finance student, but let's assume for the moment that the possibilities brought up in this thread are correct, which they may very well be. If a horse's races are being used as workouts, why not ship them to a spot where they have a MUCH better chance of providing a solid return on what has been invested already? No shame in going to a meet a bit further down on the totem pole (Ellis, Philly, etc.) if it means a better chance at making some money.

Obviously it's not as high-profile, but it's pretty clear that this horse needs SOMETHING changed. As ryesteve and bisket have said, maybe the new trainer is on the right track, and I surely hope that's the case.

No..read my post...what I'm saying is that you know nothing about the horse except how many times he ran. He might need to race to be happy. In none of those races you mention was he anywhere near a favorite.....they look more like long workouts to me and the one time he had halfway decent odds he ran third after only six days rest.

I just think that just because the horse ran 16 times does not mean he was run into the ground. It is more likely the as u suggest company he is keeping.

[joanied]

After reading through these posts, I don't know what to think...but, I beleive it's ryesteve's posts that give me hope...sounds like you know the new trainer, and that this man will at least try not to abuse this horse...now, as someone else mentioned, the owners have the last word... and I guess we don't know them and just how they feel about the horses they won...are they commodities or living/breathing animals...
I won't pass any judgment here...at first glance, this horse's race record looks, IMO to be way over the top...but, you do have to consider every variable before making a conclusion...I've learned not to jump the gun on stuff like this...
I can only hope this Pat Quick takes good care of the horse.

WinterT... I'll zip off a 'letter' to the track also...can't hurt...can you please post the email addy here...or PM me with it....thanks!!

[Robert Goren]

If the horse is at the track, then he should run. If you have a bottom claimer you either run him or turn him out to pasture. Keeping a horse in a stall and not running him makes no sense. Trainer do that all the time just to get money out the owner. They can come up with a million excuses not start him. I say if he is sound enough to be at track then he sound enough to run every ten days or so. Give him 8-10 starts then put him out to pasture for a while then bring him back for another round. 6 starts 45 days apart is ripping off the the owner. And it is not doing the horse any favors keeping cooped up in a stall all this time!

[bcgreg]

Looks as though he ran an even race against much better company as most of the field has been running 25K to Starter Allowance races. He only lost by a little more than 3 lengths.

The new trainer tried a different distance and surface...can't blame him for not trying to find his spot.

There are probably lots better examples of a horse being run into the ground, IMHO.

Oh well, if Quick can't find the right spot, it will be off to the breeding shed with him! :lol:

bcgreg

[PaceAdvantage]

Have we REALLY reached the point where a 16 day rest is considered abusive?Excellent question. To some, the answer might be yes...I certainly hope not...

[tucker6]

Excellent question. To some, the answer might be yes...I certainly hope not...
not necessarily is my answer. I have no problem in the concept of fast turnarounds for races. I guess I lack the trust that all owners/trainers have the best interests of the horse in mind at all times. It is a puzzling aspect to the betting breed that when a horse is scratched from a race for a stated malady, they clamor that the owner/trainer is acting nefarious and somehow has wronged the world. Yet when a horse races and falls to the track, it is the surface, bad luck, breeding, etc, etc, etc that is blamed and rarely the owner/trainer for poor decision making. Why is that???

[ryesteve]

After reading through these posts, I don't know what to think...but, I beleive it's ryesteve's posts that give me hope...sounds like you know the new trainer, and that this man will at least try not to abuse this horse...Yes, I know him well enough to know he's a good guy who treats his stock very well. Yes, he's having a hard time winning, but I've come to believe that this is due at least in part to not taking part in some of the usual "games" that we all bitch and moan about... you know, the sort of things trainers will do that'll get you some wins at the expense of the horse's health in the long run. That, and he just doesn't have many good horses. The one nice horse he does have really should've won the 5th today, but somehow Coa managed to get trapped on the rail in a 6 horse field going 12 furlongs.

And just to wrap up this story, Knife and Fork was only beaten 2 3/4 lengths at long odds. All in all, it was a good effort given the competition.

Excellent question. To some, the answer might be yes...I certainly hope not......Crazy... I can still remember back and the old days when a 16 day gap meant you needed to see a recent workout, otherwise the horse was a toss-out due to LACK of activity...

[kenwoodallpromos]

Crazy... I can still remember back and the old days when a 16 day gap meant you needed to see a recent workout, otherwise the horse was a toss-out due to LACK of activity...
Yes but did they take the winter off?

[Java Gold@TFT]

Another one to add to the list of being run into the ground. Today's 4th at Saratoga. Lord Kipling is making his 10th start since Dec 31. His last one was five days ago at 1 5/8 miles. Today he goes 2 miles. This year he has run 6 races at either 12 F or 13F. Now he's going out to 16F. Talk about animal abuse :rolleyes: How does Gary Contessa live with himself racing a horse 2 miles on a 5 day rest with no workouts in between? Not to mention that he is the ML favorite after losing by over 20 lengths last week. Oh, the humanity! :rolleyes:

[tucker6]

Another one to add to the list of being run into the ground. Today's 4th at Saratoga. Lord Kipling is making his 10th start since Dec 31. His last one was five days ago at 1 5/8 miles. Today he goes 2 miles. This year he has run 6 races at either 12 F or 13F. Now he's going out to 16F. Talk about animal abuse :rolleyes: How does Gary Contessa live with himself racing a horse 2 miles on a 5 day rest with no workouts in between? Not to mention that he is the ML favorite after losing by over 20 lengths last week. Oh, the humanity! :rolleyes:
What does it say about the rest of the field if a 20 length loser from five days ago is installed as the ML favorite in a longer race?

[46zilzal]

Another one to add to the list of being run into the ground. Today's 4th at Saratoga. Lord Kipling is making his 10th start since Dec 31. His last one was five days ago at 1 5/8 miles. Today he goes 2 miles. This year he has run 6 races at either 12 F or 13F. Now he's going out to 16F. Talk about animal abuse How does Gary Contessa live with himself racing a horse 2 miles on a 5 day rest with no workouts in between? Not to mention that he is the ML favorite after losing by over 20 lengths last week.
EVERY trainer I have ever talked to, EVERY ONE states that marathon distances don't take anywhere NEAR the toll on horses that SPRINTS do. These races don't pace out that much faster than their usual two mile gallops.

[castaway01]

As I am on redord stating- IMO no thoroughbred should have a combination of any races and/or works over 19 1/2 furlongs within a 30 day period regardless of the situation. That is a subjective opinion based on more than 3 6 1/2f sprint races only in a month, or a combination of even short races and works that adds up to more than that. 2 races of even 1 mile (8f) plus a 3f work equals 19f; 3 6f srints equal 18f; Anymore IMO is too much!!


Gee Ken, hope you weren't watching Saratoga today. Lord Kipling ran at 1 5/8 FIVE DAYS AGO, then easily won a 2-mile marathon today--and on the dirt, not the turf or a steeplechase. If you were in charge of racing you'd have to throw everyone invovled in jail for cruelty to animals.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Gee Ken, hope you weren't watching Saratoga today. Lord Kipling ran at 1 5/8 FIVE DAYS AGO, then easily won a 2-mile marathon today--and on the dirt, not the turf or a steeplechase. If you were in charge of racing you'd have to throw everyone invovled in jail for cruelty to animals.
Actually if you used Ken's 30 day rule the owners and trainer would get the elctric chair. Since July 20th he has raced 12F, 13F and now 16F! That's 41F in 23 days plus a 4F work on August 2. That's 45F in 23 days. Lock them all up and throw away the key. :rolleyes: ;)

[castaway01]

Actually if you used Ken's 30 day rule the owners and trainer would get the elctric chair. Since July 20th he has raced 12F, 13F and now 16F! That's 41F in 23 days plus a 4F work on August 2. That's 45F in 23 days. Lock them all up and throw away the key. :rolleyes: ;)

Good point---it's worse than a life sentence. Death penalty for all!

[kenwoodallpromos]

Actually if you used Ken's 30 day rule the owners and trainer would get the elctric chair. Since July 20th he has raced 12F, 13F and now 16F! That's 41F in 23 days plus a 4F work on August 2. That's 45F in 23 days. Lock them all up and throw away the key. :rolleyes: ;)
Thank you for the post! The horse is on Contessa's PP's. July 20 switch to turf, Aug 7 1st time on PP's LK had run closer together than every 25-30 days in races; lagged behind all race, finished 9th 23 lengths back, comment "TIRED". Today in for a $35k claim, wired on a "vigorous hand ride", claimed by Scott Lake, trainer who ran Stormy Do into the ground IMO and according to PP's and a former trainer. Now Lake gets a horse who thankfully has no bad legs comments on PP's; sire and grands on both sides ran about 24-28 times (fappiano 14 races); So according to pedigree he is about due to retire. IMHO Contessa switched to grass, shortened up races, got what hbe could out of him, cashing in.
I will watch this horse under Lake's "care".
Actually, I think 19 1/2f recommendation (no penalties) and an added 1 extra race on a waiver would be OK; That way the trainer is off the hook morally and can even brag about getting waivers instead of just running them without track backup.
But Lord Kipling, time to go back to his usual 1 race every 3-4 weeks!! I predict scott runs him every two weeks until???

[castaway01]

Thank you for the post! The horse is on Contessa's PP's. July 20 switch to turf, Aug 7 1st time on PP's LK had run closer together than every 25-30 days in races; lagged behind all race, finished 9th 23 lengths back, comment "TIRED". Today in for a $35k claim, wired on a "vigorous hand ride", claimed by Scott Lake, trainer who ran Stormy Do into the ground IMO and according to PP's and a former trainer. Now Lake gets a horse who thankfully has no bad legs comments on PP's; sire and grands on both sides ran about 24-28 times (fappiano 14 races); So according to pedigree he is about due to retire. IMHO Contessa switched to grass, shortened up races, got what hbe could out of him, cashing in.
I will watch this horse under Lake's "care".
Actually, I think 19 1/2f recommendation (no penalties) and an added 1 extra race on a waiver would be OK; That way the trainer is off the hook morally and can even brag about getting waivers instead of just running them without track backup.
But Lord Kipling, time to go back to his usual 1 race every 3-4 weeks!! I predict scott runs him every two weeks until???

I don't think you know nearly as much about when a horse is fit and healthy and when it's not as you think you do. If you're judging by the "bad legs comments" on the past performances, then I think perhaps you're not quite as qualified as the guy who is actually in the barn working with these horses. Since you're practically saying Scott Lake is going to run the horse to death---and since this is an older horse and may retire soon I'm sure you'll say "he ran him so hard he had to retire"---maybe you should take a second, use some common sense, and think about what you're accusing people of from your living room.

[rokitman]

If not couped up in a stall or corral they would run fast just about every single day.