Obama Administration Accuses Republicans of Community Organizing

[BenDiesel26]

Or so should be the title of this article. Pretty ironic.

Link (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8252205&page=1)

[Tom]

That is funny...they are in denial for sure. :lol:
Fake grass roots groups and fringe elements.
As we call them around here, AMERICANS.

[boxcar]

That is funny...they are in denial for sure. :lol:
Fake grass roots groups and fringe elements.
As we call them around here, AMERICANS.

The left's elitist attitude becomes very apparent by how they respond to dissenting opinions. They dismiss such people as "kooks", "extremists", "right wing radicals", "rabid right wingers", etc., etc. They can't help but look down their condescending snouts at anyone who dares disagree with leftist policies.

My prediction is that the left, in order to avoid further embarrassment, will now hold entirely staged "town hall" meetings where only a small number of carefully vetted people will be allowed to attend and be heard. The left will allow these drones the right of free speech but no one else.

Boxcar

[ArlJim78]

when the left protests it's patriotic even when they're loud and vulgar.

when its the right protesting it's extremists who are shills for insurance companies, even if its only average citizens who never protested anything in their lives but are against the statist plans of Obama/Pelosi.

Obama tells his minions to get in peoples faces and to snitch to the White House whenever you hear people speaking out against his healthcare plan. nothing but a thugocracy.

speak out against the stimulus and Rahm Emmanuel has threatening letters sent out from cabinet officials. balk at televising Dear Leaders numerous primetime press conferences and he phones up the heads of GE and Disney and tells them to get on board or else.

one day they rip on doctors, the next day it's insurance companies, another day wall street, next day the wealthy, the next day auto company bondholders, or police officers. on any given day they have targets on any number of groups of American citizens who they target as villians in order to propel forward their latest scheme.

I'll be taking an extra amount of delight watching these people crash and burn.

[boxcar]

The thugs in this this administration make organized crime figures look angelic by comparison.

Boxcar

[wes]

Shaking the Acorns from the tree. That is what they are scared of.


wes

[Tom]

And the are all having fits because the righties are "too well dressed!"
Compared to a typical lib, I guess we are. Grooming and civilization must be foreign concepts to them! :lol::lol::lol:

I guess we have to dirty up before they believe us!




How can people be so dirt-stupid as these morons are?

[NJ Stinks]

My prediction is that the left, in order to avoid further embarrassment, will now hold entirely staged "town hall" meetings where only a small number of carefully vetted people will be allowed to attend and be heard. The left will allow these drones the right of free speech but no one else.

Boxcar

Oh. You must mean like GWB's adminstration did. :rolleyes:

I await your denial, Boxcar.

[exactaplayer]

And this is what Fox news had to say about hecklers in the recent past.
"
During a discussion about a Code Pink member heckling Hillary Clinton at a recent event, Fox News host Brian Kilmead said that people who confront politicians are “threatening” and should be Tased or “beaten to a pulp,” as the establishment media continues to sell the idea that anyone who disagrees with authority should be brutally punished.

A segment on the Fox and Friends morning show yesterday turned into an opportunity for Kilmead to share his dictatorial fetish that dissenters be dealt with in the proper manner, as footage aired of Clinton’s heckler being removed from the event by security.

“They should Tase this guy,” Kilmead says. “At one point with security so high and tensions on edge, don’t you think they’re going to get at the very least Tased or beaten to a pulp by somebody? These people look threatening…"

[mostpost]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

[lsbets]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

really? Can you prove that or is that your opinion?

I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority are grass roots and are pissed off as hell. I see all kinds of groups meet up and voice their opinions, but I have never seen the amount of people show up that show up for healthcare. I've also never seen the level of energy in groups showing up. Government healthcare strikes a nerve with a lot of people and gets them energized. To dismiss them as casually as you do would be a giant mistake for our elected misrepresentatives.

Most people don't want their healthcare run like the post office.

[ddog]

wake me when they start mud wrestling.

these sideshows are not going to matter, doesn't matter if it's the acorn nuts or whomever.

the powers will pull the pols back and they will just turn to invite only events(bush did it) and/or remote closed circuit events.

Until people hit the streets, not for several years yet, nothing will change much.

Sorry, you have to admit to yourself what you are living in and most just can't bring themselves to do it.

[Snag]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

Wow most. Once again you jump in where no one else treads.

Care to backup your assurations with facts?

[bigmack]

Care to backup your assurations with facts?
He heard it from the DNC as shown @ DailyKos.

PtTBkxvBq88

[mostpost]

Wow most. Once again you jump in where no one else treads.

Care to backup your assurations with facts?

Here is a memo written by Bob McGuffie of FreedomWorks.

Rocking the Town Halls -- Best Practices


A Political Action Memo


We here in Fairfield County Connecticut conducted an action at Jim Himes's Town Hall meeting in May 2009. We believe there are some best practices which emerged from the event and our experience, which could be useful to activists in just about any district where their Congressperson has supported the socialist agenda of the Democrat leadership in Washington.
Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: "Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up. The Rep should be made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington."

Be Disruptive Early And Often: "You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early."

Try To "Rattle Him," Not Have An Intelligent Debate: "The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions."

"Try to Rattle Him, Not have an intelligent debate."

All you need to do is to look at the town hall meetings. This is an organized attempt to bully and intimidate.

72% of Americans favor a Health Care plan which includes a public option.

When asked if they favor the plan being discussed in Congress only 36 % say yes, BUT when given a detailed description of the plan that number rises to 56%.

When people go to a Town Hall meeting, they expect to listen and to be listened to. The phony protesters won't give anyone a chance to speak. This is not anger, it is pre-planning. It is what is described in McGuffie's memo.

I guarantee there will be more proof coming out as time passes.

[prospector]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

It would be a mistake to underestimate the mood of the people...

MOB MEMBER...AND DAMN PROUD OF IT!:jump::jump:

[riskman]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

Here is a typical Obama town hall meeting. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U

[BenDiesel26]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

cough cough...Acorn...cough cough

It's called community organizing mostpost. This is what your boy Obama does. This was his job. I wonder if Freedom Works is paying these people like Acorn does with money and cigarettes (we don't have to hope and pray that some sort of proof will come out here like you are, it already has) for their so-called "grassroots" campaigns. You know, the "spontaneous" ones with the professionally made signs and the drowning out chants that you are complaining of. Kind of like the recent town hall down in New Orleans where peaceful people showing up who don't support the healthcare plan were asked to leave for no reason.

Wake up. Obama is running his whole campaign and presidency using the exact same tactics that you are complaining of in this very thread, that was the whole point of starting it (hook, line, and sinker). Obama is trying to demonize dissenters despite the fact that the majority of Americans (> 50% in recent polls) disagree with his handling of healthcare. Why? As his mentor Saul Alinsky has said--"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also, it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage."---"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

[mostpost]

According to the NBC/WSJ poll, when OBAMA's health care policy is explained accurately and in detail the favorable response rises 20% from 36 to 56%.

When it is lied about and misrepresented the numbers drop.

[BenDiesel26]

According to the NBC/WSJ poll, when OBAMA's health care policy is explained accurately and in detail the favorable response rises 20% from 36 to 56%.

When it is lied about and misrepresented the numbers drop.

That's impossible, since Obama has yet to actually disclose a health care plan. He has made generalizations and statements about what he would like in a perfect healthcare plan, but he has yet to lay out specifics other than that he wants a government-run plan (changed to public option after his administration polled the wording). Her certainly has yet to say how he will pay for it. Based on those same statements, specifically the one that the plan he signs must be deficit neutral, he right now cannot sign onto any one of the plans currently in congress if he lives up to his promise. He also denies basic truths about his plan that are obvious, mainly the rationing of care.

[Marshall Bennett]

According to the NBC/WSJ poll, when OBAMA's health care policy is explained accurately and in detail the favorable response rises 20% from 36 to 56%.

When it is lied about and misrepresented the numbers drop.
That's about the most ridiculous poll I've ever heard of . Ben is right , how do you poll something that doesn't exist ? Figures you'd be the one to jump on this . Means absolutely nothing !!

[Tom]

According to the NBC/WSJ poll, when OBAMA's health care policy is explained accurately and in detail the favorable response rises 20% from 36 to 56%.

When it is lied about and misrepresented the numbers drop.

OK, here is where I challenge your premise - WHO says what the true explanation is? Rush has been playing unedited comments, in context, by Obama and pointing out specific sections in the bill, by page number.

And Obama has not come close to doing that.
I will go with specifics over the DNC crap and lies that are spewed out everyday over the State Run MSM....and I do mean outright lies.

[Tom]

And this is what Fox news had to say about hecklers in the recent past.
"

“

Are you really that weak on this stuff?
Come on now, the Code Stink people were HECKLERS, obviously representing an organization. Compare that to real people, who your side apparently doesn't trust because we dress nice and are clean, are not hecklers, they recognized and asking real quotations, that is, when their mics are not turned off. If you can't tell the difference, you need to pay closer attention.

That kind of cheap generalizations are not being accepted anymore. These aren't the McCain/Powell milquetoast repubs you are dealing with anymore.

[ArlJim78]

one of these republican/insurance shill mobs was caught on video. not for the faint of heart.


-eI1KolTIdc

[riskman]

The natives getting restless? A good sign.

Make sure that you report anyone that opposes Obamacare directly to the White House so they can be dealt with accordingly.

From the White House Blog. "There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

Now do your patriotic duty and report them Obama care terrorists that oppose these soviet style tactics pushing this nasty piece of legislation that will be implemented by our new "politburo"...!

[dartman51]

These people are not attending these town hall meetings to express their opinions. They are there to disrupt the meetings. They shout down opposing points of view. They won't let the congressman answer questions. They are not there to engage in constructive dialog.

These people are not a part of a grass roots campaign. They are funded by lobbying groups such as FreedomWorks. They are a tiny, loud minority. They use lies and intimidation to get their way.

It would be a mistake to think that they represent a majority opinion on health care.

I can tell where you get your MARCHING ORDERS from. You obviously aren't watching the real news. I watched a clip from one of the "town hall" meetings, and a guy was standing up and SHOUTING. But he wasn't a conservitive. He was wanting to know WHY the SINGLE PAYER PLAN was off the table. NOW, surely, even YOU, aren't STUPID enough to believe that he was a plant from the insurance companies. One of these days, we're going to hear a tremondous POP. That will be the sound of the LEFT pulling their head out of their collective asses.

[mostpost]

I can tell where you get your MARCHING ORDERS from. You obviously aren't watching the real news. I watched a clip from one of the "town hall" meetings, and a guy was standing up and SHOUTING. But he wasn't a conservitive. He was wanting to know WHY the SINGLE PAYER PLAN was off the table. NOW, surely, even YOU, aren't STUPID enough to believe that he was a plant from the insurance companies. One of these days, we're going to hear a tremondous POP. That will be the sound of the LEFT pulling their head out of their collective asses.
I saw that same clip. Why did you not mention the man in the first or second row who was shouting at "Single Payer" guy, tellling him to shut up and sit down and not allowing him to ask his question or make his point. Maybe that's why "Single Payer" guy had to shout.

[dartman51]

I saw that same clip. Why did you not mention the man in the first or second row who was shouting at "Single Payer" guy, tellling him to shut up and sit down and not allowing him to ask his question or make his point. Maybe that's why "Single Payer" guy had to shout.

It didn't matter if he stood up or SHUT UP and sat down, the guy wasn't getting an answer. You see, for you uninformed, a town hall meeting is supposed to be about questions and ANSWERS. But the questions were NOT getting answered. Not the SINGLE PAYER GUY, or anyone else. They just stood there and let everyone talk at once, trying to ask their questions, then they would step to the podium and proceed with thier TALKING POINTS. But that's OK. The American people have gotten pissed off enough that there WILL be some changes made in 2010, on BOTH sides of the isle. If this debacle is what it took to wake them up, then good, I'm glad it happened. If more people would ask questions of our LEADERS, instead of sitting in front of the TV, soaking up the talking points from both sides, this country just MIGHT survive. It's NOT UN-AMERICAN to question and disagree with our leaders, IT'S OUR JOB!!!!

[Snag]

I guarantee there will be more proof coming out as time passes.

most, where do I sign up for your "guarantee"?

[boxcar]

Oh. You must mean like GWB's adminstration did. :rolleyes:

I await your denial, Boxcar.

Wouldn't know about the Bush era. I was never a fan of Bush and certainly didn't pay much attention to his town hall meetings. However, I do know that when candidates campaign for the presidency, those meetings and presidential debates are a big joke. I never approved of these staged, phony events. Politicians who hide behind these kinds of fronts are cowardly.

Boxcar
P.S. I'm still waiting to hear that you don't deny that your messiah is a lying, commie narcissist.

[boxcar]

According to the NBC/WSJ poll, when OBAMA's health care policy is explained accurately and in detail the favorable response rises 20% from 36 to 56%.

When it is lied about and misrepresented the numbers drop.

How can a lying administration explain anything "accurately"? :bang: :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

one of these republican/insurance shill mobs was caught on video. not for the faint of heart.


-eI1KolTIdc


Wow! That was one scary mob. Those Texans don't play. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[Tom]

I remind everyone about the CNN(?) reporter trying to stage that interview at a tea party?

Come on, we are just too daper to be fakes!:lol:

[dav4463]

The left prefer their demonstrations to be classy ... like the gay parades, the NOW meetings where the women look like ugly men...etc.

[NJ Stinks]

Here is a significant difference between Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats protest a war they think is unjust or for the rights of an oppressed minority.

Republicans protest tax increases. Or any change to health care that may or may not be better for them than they already have.

In other words, Republicans are basically selfish. "I want to keep as much as I can and to hell with anybody else or even the USA if means paying more taxes", they wail to themselves.

And look who doesn't want any changes made to health care:

1. Many Seniors who currently have Medicare pick up 80% of the tab and their private insurer the other 20% of their medical bills. These people don't want anybody screwing with what they have - even if Medicare is unsustainable the way things are going for their offspring.

2. Many Non-seniors who can afford (and have) great health insurance and don't want anyone screwing around with what they already have. It doesn't matter that health insurance rates are soaring and so are health costs. These people are keeping up well enough thank you. Too bad for the turkies that don't have health insurance or can't keep up with the soaring cost of health care.

3. People like Tom who are afraid they might have to wait longer for excellent health care if everybody in the country is in the same line for the same privilege. I can't tell you how bad I feel you, Tom, when you repeat that. Of course you deserve to be in the front of any line. :rolleyes:

4. People who get pissed thinking about illegal immigrants who might benefit from health care reform. There are 11M or so illegal immigrants in the country. The total legal population is around 300M. So we are not going to reform health care because 3.5% of the total population might somehow benefit? Have you ever cut off your nose to spite your face?

I'm a Democrat who wants health care reform. I don't need it. In fact, I'm in #2 above. So what? I'm willing to roll the dice. I see first-hand how happy so many people are with their overall health care in the UK and Canada and wonder why it can't happen here too. More employers in the USA are dropping health care plans for their employees all the time. Mainly because they can't compete with other competitors who offer crappy health care or no health care at all. And people here stay with jobs they hate just so their family has health insurance coverage. (Is that healthy?) In short, the system here stinks unless you've got the money.

Two more thing and then you can tell me I'm crazy. I don't go to church on Sunday. I'm a rotten Catholic. So what? Looking around I wonder what the minister, priest, etc. is talking about in his Sunday sermons. Whatever it is - it's not very effective IMO.

Finally, my wife found out she had cancer last year. She has received excellent medical care ever since it was found. But she still thinks the USA needs health care reform. What convinced her was the $82,000 the hospital charged for spending 7 nights in the hospital. The $82G's did not cover the doctor who did the operation or the doctor visits/consultations after the operation while she was still in the hospital. All told we billed around $200,000 relating to her illness last year. Protesting any sort of a government option that almost has to somewhat control health care costs is beyond her and my imagination. But that's conservatives for you...

[Warren Henry]

Finally, my wife found out she had cancer last year. She has received excellent medical care ever since it was found. But she still thinks the USA needs health care reform.

First, I sincerely hope that they took care of her problem. Please remain vigilant as cancer is a nasty enemy which can recurr when least expected. Also, I found out (much to my surprise) that prayer can help.

Now to the topic at hand.

My wife has had two bouts of ovarian cancer. I honestly don't think she would be with us if we had had government run healthcare at that time. You see, the statistics said that she was terminal because the cancer was recurrent. Never mind that statistics might be skewed because there are multiple types of ovarian cancer. The main type comes back quick and spreads fast. Her type can lay dormant for a long time (6 years in her case), but then comes back as a slow growing local tumor. It turns out that if you defy the statistics and have surgery instead of calling hospice, you can live a long life cancer free.

With Government run "best practices" being mandated or with care being denied because of age, she would have died a slow unnecessary death. Now, would that be "fair"?

[ArlJim78]

Here is a significant difference between Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats protest a war they think is unjust or for the rights of an oppressed minority.

Republicans protest tax increases. Or any change to health care that may or may not be better for them than they already have.

In other words, Republicans are basically selfish. "I want to keep as much as I can and to hell with anybody else or even the USA if means paying more taxes", they wail to themselves.

...
you don't get it. it has been said over and over but you either don't understand or don't want to understand. a majority of Republicans do want health care reform. but a bigger majority does not want the government to run health care for all.
it's a phony argument that you guys use, you throw on the table a horrible idea, and then when its not popular you counter that the people who don't like it "don't want any change and are selfish". not true

[ArlJim78]

and another thing, if trying to prevent further confiscation of private wealth by the government so that it can be redistributed to others as Washington sees fit is selfish, then I'm proudly selfish.

I don't imagine that you guys that believe so much in high taxes ostensibly for the purpose of "helping others", are sending in any extra tax money with your return, or refusing to explore every loophole in the code to reduce the burden on you and your family. Why is that? Aren't you being selfish? you have more than others less fortunate than you, why not double your tax and send it in to uncle Sam to help alleviate the suffering of others?

[Tom]

3. People like Tom who are afraid they might have to wait longer for excellent health care if everybody in the country is in the same line for the same privilege. I can't tell you how bad I feel you, Tom, when you repeat that. Of course you deserve to be in the front of any line. :rolleyes:

I have no problem standing in line behind other people who pay their own way.
None at all.

[Tom]

Protesting any sort of a government option that almost has to somewhat control health care costs is beyond her and my imagination. But that's conservatives for you...


You left this one out about dems - like you just did, they totally lie about the real position of repubs. NO ONE said we were against "any sort of option" , specifically we are opposed to THIS option and any other that take put the government in charge.

There are MANY other ways to cut cost, but the DEMS, who like to lie and do it so good, as you just proved in your post, will not consider anything because your health is NOT their goal. Control of this large chunk of the economy is their ONLY goal.

I support health care reform, but I want to do it smart and do it effectively.
Just do it is not an option.

You should go on Neil Cavuto - your song is being sung note for note by other dems everyday - as they dodge the truth and spout their lies.

[Tom]

4. People who get pissed thinking about illegal immigrants who might benefit from health care reform. There are 11M or so illegal immigrants in the country. The total legal population is around 300M. So we are not going to reform health care because 3.5% of the total population might somehow benefit? Have you ever cut off your nose to spite your face?

I say 22 million, but you want to overhaul the whole system for 45 million minus 11 million illegals, or 34 million.

[dartman51]

This is a REQUEST......NJ and Most, since you two are the resident experts on this health care plan, would you guys please READ page 58, and explain to me what they are trying to say. It is very confusing. :confused:

[dartman51]

4. People who get pissed thinking about illegal immigrants who might benefit from health care reform. There are 11M or so illegal immigrants in the country. The total legal population is around 300M. So we are not going to reform health care because 3.5% of the total population might somehow benefit? Have you ever cut off your nose to spite your face?




1.6% of Americans identify themselves as atheists. If the U.S. population (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html) is approximately 303.5 million, this means that there are at least 4,856,000 atheists in America who identify as such.

How many laws in America have been changed because of this 1.6% ??

You see, percentages don't mean very much. We ABSOLUTLY DO need health care REFORM. NOT a complete TAKEOVER by a government.

REFORM
transitive verb 1 a : to put or change into an improved form or condition b : to amend or improve by change of form or removal of faults or abuses
2 : to put an end to (an evil) by enforcing or introducing a better method or course of action

The REMOVAL of faults and abuses, would be a good start. This includes the illegal immigrants. TORT REFORM, would also be good, but, you notice, no one is pushing these things. Do you think that it might be that the trial lawers have good lobbiest. Why is it that Congress wants NOTHING to do with this bill.......FOR THEMSELVES. It's good enough for the peons, but NOT good enough for them. :bang:

[ArlJim78]

a guy I work with is an Obamaton. he shared with me an email that he got from Obama on health care. I copied most of it below. It kinda sounds like he is organizing a mob. he is asking the Obamatons to do the same thing the tea partiers and ObamaCare opponents are doing. going to town meeting and letting the world know how you feel about health care. But according to the Obama Orwellian worldview, those people are evil and wrong and you should report them to the white house. But if you agree with him you're noble and doing whats right and fighting the good fight. The funny thing is, everywhere there is a pro ObamaCare gathering, an anti-ObamaCare rally shows up and outnumbers them by 10 to 1.
______________________________________
"This is the moment our movement was built for.

For one month, the fight for health insurance reform leaves the backrooms of Washington, D.C., and returns to communities across America. Throughout August, members of Congress are back home, where the hands they shake and the voices they hear will not belong to lobbyists, but to people like you.

Home is where we're strongest. We didn't win last year's election together at a committee hearing in D.C. We won it on the doorsteps and the phone lines, at the softball games and the town meetings, and in every part of this great country where people gather to talk about what matters most. And if you're willing to step up once again, that's exactly where we're going to win this historic campaign for the guaranteed, affordable health insurance that every American deserves.

There are those who profit from the status quo, or see this debate as a political game, and they will stop at nothing to block reform. They are filling the airwaves and the internet with outrageous falsehoods to scare people into opposing change. And some people, not surprisingly, are getting pretty nervous. So we've got to get out there, fight lies with truth, and set the record straight.

That's why Organizing for America is putting together thousands of events this month where you can reach out to neighbors, show your support, and make certain your members of Congress know that you're counting on them to act.

But these canvasses, town halls, and gatherings only make a difference if you turn up to knock on doors, share your views, and show your support. So here's what I need from you:

Can you commit to join at least one event in your community this month?


In politics, there's a rule that says when you ask people to get involved, always tell them it'll be easy. Well, let's be honest here: Passing comprehensive health insurance reform will not be easy. Every President since Harry Truman has talked about it, and the most powerful and experienced lobbyists in Washington stand in the way.

But every day we don't act, Americans watch their premiums rise three times faster than wages, small businesses and families are pushed towards bankruptcy, and 14,000 people lose their coverage entirely. The cost of inaction is simply too much for the people of this nation to bear.

So yes, fixing this crisis will not be easy. Our opponents will attack us every day for daring to try. It will require time, and hard work, and there will be days when we don't know if we have anything more to give. But there comes a moment when we all have to choose between doing what's easy, and doing what's right.

This is one of those times. And moments like this are what this movement was built for. So, are you ready?

Please commit now to taking at least one action in your community this month to build support for health insurance reform:"

[Tom]

The funny thing is, everywhere there is a pro ObamaCare gathering, an anti-ObamaCare rally shows up and outnumbers them by 10 to 1.

I heard that they were just fake grass rooters and fringe elements. :lol:



But please, oh pleeeeeeze, someone come knock on my door. Pleeeeeze!
I want to try out my new jack-boots. :D

[toetoe]

[QUOTE=boxcar]

My prediction is that the left, in order to avoid further embarrassment, will now hold entirely staged "town hall" meetings where only a small number of carefully vetted people will be allowed to attend and be heard. [QUOTE]

:D

[boxcar]

Here is a significant difference between Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats protest a war they think is unjust or for the rights of an oppressed minority.

Republicans protest tax increases. Or any change to health care that may or may not be better for them than they already have.

In other words, Republicans are basically selfish. "I want to keep as much as I can and to hell with anybody else or even the USA if means paying more taxes", they wail to themselves.

All straw man arguments. The reason so many of don't want socialized medicine is because government will infringe upon our right of free choice. As individuals, responsible for our own health, we insist on making our own decisions on how to care for our bodies.

Next, turning over control of our health care to the government would empower the state even further to dictate its leftist policy to U.S. citizens. The government would be in a very strong position to outright deny care to dissidents or at least permit interminable delays. (We have plenty of evidence of how leftists feel about their political opponents and how they want to deal with them, e.g. BO's strong civilian security force, ACORN, snitching on dissenting neighbors, etc. -- all out of a Nazi playbook).

What needs to be understood is that the singular goal of nationalized medicine is [B]NOT TO PROVIDE QUALITY HEALTH SERVICES/b]. The singular goal is to cut costs through a severe rationing process. Ultimately, the state would get to decide who receives care and who doesn't based on cost-benefits ratios.

Also, there would be no value in a state-run health care system. The quality of service would diminish from what it is now -- very good to poor and probably cost us, through taxes, as much or even more than we're currently paying for our insurance coverage.

And talking about biting off noses to spite faces -- it's the left who is manufacturing this health care crisis. There are far more than 11 million illegals here and they are putting a tremendous drain on our health resources, and they make up a very large percentage of the "uninsured" in this country. Another large percentage are young people who don't want to spend what little money they have on insurance. That is their choice and they should be allowed to make it.

So, this leaves us with the unemployed (whose numbers have grown significantly since BO took office, so we have him to thank for that with his "stimulus" package) and we have the poor who have Medicaid and can receive treatment for emergency situations through this program.

And the fact that both programs are "unsustainable" actually speaks poignantly AGAINST the creation of another socialized medical program. Since the state can't sustain these two programs and run them efficiently, then what would make any reasonable, sane person think the government wold be able to run a new program better? :bang: :bang: The state can't run the post office profitably or efficiently. It can't even run its latest boondoggle -- Cash for Clunkers program efficiently.

And who are you, you arrogant, condescending, holier-than-thou leftist, Mr. NJ to talk about selfishness? You first need to pull the huge plank from the eye of politicians, federal employees and union workers who will selfishly get to keep their existing plans and will not nor ever will be forced to participate in any "public option" (because this option would never be good enough for them) before you ever point to any speck in the Right's eye!

And as far as your wife is concerned, I'm very sorry that you think that her life wasn't worth the cost of her health care ticket. Instead of humbling yourself and getting down on your knees and thanking and praising God Almighty for his mercy and kindness for granting recovery to your wife, you instead can only find it in your hardened heart to complain and whine about what it cost you to spare her life.

And your attitude and your wife's is precisely the kind of prism the U.S. government would view each American's medical situations. And this is what is so scary because the Left, with its Culture of Death Syndrome, does not place an inestimable value upon human life. To the Left, human life has very limited value -- except, of course, when it concerns the elitist policymakers.

Boxcar

[mostpost]

This is a REQUEST......NJ and Most, since you two are the resident experts on this health care plan, would you guys please READ page 58, and explain to me what they are trying to say. It is very confusing. :confused:
`(a) Standards for Financial and Administrative Transactions-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall adopt and regularly update standards consistent with the goals described in paragraph (2).

`(2) GOALS FOR FINANCIAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE TRANSACTIONS- The goals for standards under paragraph (1) are that such standards shall--

`(A) be unique with no conflicting or redundant standards;
Don't say two different things; don't repeat yourself
`(B) be authoritative, permitting no additions or constraints for electronic transactions, including companion guides;
I dont know
`(C) be comprehensive, efficient and robust, requiring minimal augmentation by paper transactions or clarification by further communications;
Include all necesary information from the git go.

`(D) enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual's financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card;
Do you qualify for the service. Is your doctor part of a particular plan. An ID card MAY be used, including a national health plan beneficiary ID card.
`(E) enable, where feasible, near real-time adjudication of claims;`
Permit the client to know quickly which services are covered
(F) provide for timely acknowledgment, response, and status reporting applicable to any electronic transaction deemed appropriate by the Secretary
;provide information quickly

`(G) describe all data elements (such as reason and remark codes) in unambiguous terms, not permit optional fields, require that data elements be either required or conditioned upon set values in other fields, and prohibit additional conditions; and`(H) harmonize all common data elements across administrative and clinical transaction standards.
Do not confuse people

Perhaps this will explain it more clearly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxtN0xxzfsw

[rastajenk]

Here is a memo written by Bob McGuffie of FreedomWorks.



"Try to Rattle Him, Not have an intelligent debate."

All you need to do is to look at the town hall meetings. This is an organized attempt to bully and intimidate.

72% of Americans favor a Health Care plan which includes a public option.

When asked if they favor the plan being discussed in Congress only 36 % say yes, BUT when given a detailed description of the plan that number rises to 56%.

When people go to a Town Hall meeting, they expect to listen and to be listened to. The phony protesters won't give anyone a chance to speak. This is not anger, it is pre-planning. It is what is described in McGuffie's memo.

I guarantee there will be more proof coming out as time passes.

Here's a thorough debunking of the McGuffie linkage (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/08/think_progress_msnbc_manufactu.asp) and proof positive of one of two things, or both: The Left lies through its teeth, and mostpost just parrots the talking points set out for him by the Liars.

From the link: "Think Progress highlighted his memo's directives to "‘Yell,’ ‘Stand Up And Shout Out,’ ‘Rattle Him’," calling it a "right-wing harassment strategy against Dems." The blog falsely connected MacGuffie to the national conservative group FreedomWorks through the most tenuous of threads. The Think Progress link that purports to establish MacGuffie as a FreedomWorks "volunteer" leads to his one blog posting on a Tea Party website (on the free social networking site, ning.com). Think Progress calls Tea Party Patriots a "FreedomWorks website."

The problem is it's not a FreedomWorks site, according to FreedomWorks spokesman Adam Brandon. FreedomWorks is a "coalition partner" of TeaPartyPatriots.org, but does not fund the site in any way.

"There is no formal structural connection," Brandon told me. "Never has been. Never will be. We're just fellow travelers in the movement."

When I asked MacGuffie if he was a volunteer for FreedomWorks outside the specious evidence Think Progress cited, he said, "Absolutely not. You can Google all day; you won't find it. There is no formal connection. I don't know anyone from FreedomWorks."

He joined the Tea Party Patriots community site when it was mentioned to him by several local Tea Party activists (whom he admits knowing . . . smoking gun!), and "blogged there, very little." So MacGuffie, a local activist in Connecticut who never volunteered for FreedomWorks wrote a memo and also wrote a blog post on a site not paid for or hosted by FreedomWorks. There's your national conspiracy, folks."

[boxcar]

`(a) Standards for Financial and Administrative Transactions-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall adopt and regularly update standards consistent with the goals described in paragraph (2).

`(2) GOALS FOR FINANCIAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE TRANSACTIONS- The goals for standards under paragraph (1) are that such standards shall--


Don't say two different things; don't repeat yourself

I dont know
;
Include all necesary information from the git go.


Do you qualify for the service. Is your doctor part of a particular plan. An ID card MAY be used, including a national health plan beneficiary ID card.
`
Permit the client to know quickly which services are covered
(F
;provide information quickly

`(H) harmonize all common data elements across administrative and clinical transaction standards.
Do not confuse people

Perhaps this will explain it more clearly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxtN0xxzfsw

No. Perhaps this will explain it more clearly: To freedom-loving Americans (you know -- those of us who "selfishly" cherish our individual and Constitutionally-granted liberties), the "public option" (so called) a/k/a socialized medicine, nationalized health care or universal health care is a NON-STARTER in any debate or discussion about health care reform. Reform is one thing and is welcomed. But demolition is something else and is not desired or acceptable.

Only gullible, foolish people like yourself buy into government promises. Only people like you can put their blind and irrational faith and confidence into unknown and largely unknowable politicians. Only people like yourself will brush aside or ignore Barney's Frank's honest (for once!) admission that the "public option" would the best path (ultimately) to a one-payer system.

The politicians on both sides of the aisle who support any form of "public option" plan can shove the plan up their noses. Any questions?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

This is a REQUEST......NJ and Most, since you two are the resident experts on this health care plan, would you guys please READ page 58, and explain to me what they are trying to say. It is very confusing. :confused:

The language is intentionally ambiguous because the "Secretary" is given virtually unlimited power to set standards -- standards that will not remain static -- they will evolve over time, which is why the language is so vague.

Boxcar

[LottaKash]

Bring on the "brown shirts".....GOODY !...can't wait...:jump:

best,

[dartman51]

The language is intentionally ambiguous because the "Secretary" is given virtually unlimited power to set standards -- standards that will not remain static -- they will evolve over time, which is why the language is so vague.

Boxcar

Yeah, I knew that Box, I just wanted to see what kind of answer I would get. And you're right, just like that one senator, or congressman, I forget which, said. You need 2 days and 2 lawyers, to understand this bill. It was written by the union heads at SEIU, and I'm sure their lawyers did the terminology.

[lsbets]

I'll report back to everyone Saturday afternoon. We have a group that meets at my store every Sat a.m. to discuss issues and they bring in speakers. This Sat, our Congressman is coming in to discuss healthcare. I'll let you all know how many people above normal come in (a lot, I hope $$$$$), and how many are paid to be here. They expect a large turnout, and there better be one- I'm adding more staff Saturday morning expecting a standing room only crowd.

[ArlJim78]

I'll report back to everyone Saturday afternoon. We have a group that meets at my store every Sat a.m. to discuss issues and they bring in speakers. This Sat, our Congressman is coming in to discuss healthcare. I'll let you all know how many people above normal come in (a lot, I hope $$$$$), and how many are paid to be here. They expect a large turnout, and there better be one- I'm adding more staff Saturday morning expecting a standing room only crowd.
great! have someone get some pictures or video. I want to see this mob.

[lsbets]

great! have someone get some pictures or video. I want to see this mob.

Well, our Congressman was probably dead set against the bill, but it will be interesting to hear his take on how things went down since he is one of the senior guys on the Energy and Commerce committee. He's also the last WWII vet serving in the house. :ThmbUp:

[NJ Stinks]

Warren, I am really happy to hear your wife's surgery was successful. I don't know much about ovarian cancer but I learned some things from your post. My wife had her first colonoscopy and tumor was found. A surgeon removed it and so far so good. I'm skeptical about care being denied because of age under the House proposal but I'm not going to change your mind so I won't try.

ArlJim78, we disagree. :eek: How are health costs going to be controlled unless there is real competition among insurers? Going across state lines to buy health insurance sounds good in theory. But if an insurer from Oklahoma decides to insure somebody from NJ, the insurer is probably going to charge more to the NJ resident than an OK resdient if medical care costs more in NJ than in OK. Maybe health care is not more expensive in NJ than OK but that seems unlikely. As for being selfish, I'm not going to debate it. I see what I see and you see what you see.

Tom, you can't be in line if you can't afford health insurance or can't afford the treatment needed. You don't want to do anything about this and I do. As for the Democrats wanting to control the economy, it's sounds like voodoo to me. I'm not buying it. That BS is for righties only I guess. You say there are many ways to cut health care costs and I would be interested in hearing what they are (besides being able to buy health insurance across state lines.) As for spouting lies, etc., you've got a lot of nerve throwing the first stone. :rolleyes:

Boxcar, you may not be aware of this but the Democratic party is a whole lot more than ACORN. Since you insist that the ultimate goal of nationalized medicine is cutting costs and rationing care, explain why that bastion of socialized medicine - Medicare - does not ration what they will cover? Have you read about old patients denied Medicare coverage after a doctor recommended an operation? Next you say there is no health care crisis so we disagree there. You say the government can't sustain Medicare and Medicaid so how is the government going to run another health program differently. You are right to a degree. You can't sustain these programs without raising taxes. It's that simple. Getting something for nothing is not an option. We already discussed the anointed politicians, gov. employees, and union folks on another thread. As for the stuff about my wife's operation, I'll leave them alone. You are going to believe whatever you want to believe no matter what I say here.

[boxcar]

Boxcar, you may not be aware of this but the Democratic party is a whole lot more than ACORN.

You're telling me. ACORN is just the tip of the radical NutJob iceberg.

Since you insist that the ultimate goal of nationalized medicine is cutting costs and rationing care, explain why that bastion of socialized medicine - Medicare - does not ration what they will cover?

Two things: Read what leftists themselves have said about how to cut health care costs. There's plenty of material out there.

Secondly, are you aware of a political strategy called Incrementalsim? Been around for a verty long time. We didn't get to where we are today overnight.
In fact, I would to God that Medicare never saw the light of day because then we wouldn't be having this discussion right now!

And why do you persist with your mindless mantra: "Well, show me what conservatives would do to reform the system"? Do you not read what has been posted here or has the left's talking points blinded you? :bang: :bang: A few of us have offered various ways to begin meaningful reform, apart from demolishing the health care industry and making it over in the state's image! What's wrong with outlawing health care to all illegal aliens, or tort reform, or prohibiting costly advertising of prescription drugs, or restricting insurance coverage to only needed medical procedures or combating Medicaid and Medicare fraud, which costs the taxpayers a small fortune -- only about 60 Bil per year!?

And the above recommendations is by no means an exhaustive list. I have barely scratched the surface.

Boxcar

[NJ Stinks]

What's wrong with outlawing health care to all illegal aliens, or tort reform, or prohibiting costly advertising of prescription drugs, or restricting insurance coverage to only needed medical procedures or combating Medicaid and Medicare fraud, which costs the taxpayers a small fortune -- only about 60 Bil per year!?

And the above recommendations is by no means an exhaustive list. I have barely scratched the surface.

Boxcar

That's a good start.

I'm curious. Is everybody who doesn't agree with you a nutjob?

[boxcar]

Oh, yeah...and one more item, Mr. NJ, because quite frankly, as Tom pointed out a couple of weeks or so ago, this "little" obstacle "says it all" about the the numerous undesirable elements that must be contained in this bill: If the this "public option" bill were any good, everyone would WANT to participate in it -- from the President of the U.S. all the way down to the "lowly" janitor cleaning the bathrooms in the halls of congress. All federal employees and union workers would have to participate and would want to participate. Now...when I see this happen -- when I see that the law they have written for us also applies to them, I'll be the first on line to sign up -- as God above is my witness -- because then I'll know that this "public option" must be pretty darn good. After all, if it's good enough for "them", then it must be good enough for "us".

Boxcar

[NJ Stinks]

Oh, yeah...and one more item, Mr. NJ, because quite frankly, as Tom pointed out a couple of weeks or so ago, this "little" obstacle "says it all" about the the numerous undesirable elements that must be contained in this bill: If the this "public option" bill were any good, everyone would WANT to participate in it -- from the President of the U.S. all the way down to the "lowly" janitor cleaning the bathrooms in the halls of congress. All federal employees and union workers would have to participate and would want to participate. Now...when I see this happen -- when I see that the law they have written for us also applies to them, I'll be the first on line to sign up -- as God above is my witness -- because then I'll know that this "public option" must be pretty darn good. After all, if it's good enough for "them", then it must be good enough for "us".

Boxcar

I agree it's a valid point, Boxcar. If anyone has reasons for being skeptical, I wouldn't sign-up either. Better to keep what you've got.

[boxcar]

I agree it's a valid point, Boxcar. If anyone has reasons for being skeptical, I wouldn't sign-up either. Better to keep what you've got.

Too bad none of us will have that option of opting out of nationalized health care, isn't it? :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

That's a good start.

I'm curious. Is everybody who doesn't agree with you a nutjob?

That depends.

Boxcar

[LottaKash]

Too bad none of us will have that option of opting out of nationalized health care, isn't it? :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

Perhaps it is more like "opting" out of this current gov't.....and trading up to a more "sane" one.....These people are like untrained adolescents acting out their wildest "fantasies" or perhaps "horrific nightmares.....either way a scary bunch, I think...

best,

[Tom]

Perhaps it is more like "opting" out of this current gov't.....and trading up to a more "sane" one.....These people are like untrained adolescents acting out their wildest "fantasies" or perhaps "horrific nightmares.....either way a scary bunch, I think...

best,

A wise man once wrote,

...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


And those words swept the nation.

[GaryG]

That was a nice quiet little meeting they had in Tampa.....the natives are getting restlesser and restlesser.

[highnote]

Maybe the next Civil War in the U.S. will be over healthcare?

[Lefty]

Maybe, but don't forget cap and trade, the coming tax raises and everything else Obama is doing to turn us ino a Socialist Nation. Cash for clunkers is not only infusing the mkt artificially and will crash when money runs out again, it will also put a big crimp in, if not destroy, the used car mkt. Plenty not to like.
He came out today and told us to shut up. Don't recall Bush ever doing anything remotely like that! Also at one of the town hall meetings Union thugs attacked a Conservative Black Man. I knew it wouldn't be long.

[lsbets]

Maybe the next Civil War in the U.S. will be over healthcare?

Nope, it will be over the role of government. Is the government subordinate or superior to its citizenry. Will we as a people continue to accept the thought that along with liberty and freedom comes the chance of failure and unequal outcomes, or will we seek a nanny state that deprives us of our liberties and gives everyone the same outcome.

It will be a fight between freedom and statism. You can see the anger building already.

As Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death".

[prospector]

this country was built thru revolution...it may take another one to get it back..doesn't matter who's in congress...you can't trust any of them...need to clean house..

[Tom]

So violence is now starting as the Obama thugs/union boys get involved.
Typical - we all knew what Barry the Bruiser was all about from the get go.
Chicago thug - nothing more than a street pig.

Guess what, Barry - we ain't gonna shut up.

[boxcar]

Nope, it will be over the role of government. Is the government subordinate or superior to its citizenry. Will we as a people continue to accept the thought that along with liberty and freedom comes the chance of failure and unequal outcomes, or will we seek a nanny state that deprives us of our liberties and gives everyone the same outcome.

It will be a fight between freedom and statism. You can see the anger building already.

As Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death".

Well stated! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

And I think slowly but surely more and more people every day are beginning to see this. More people are beginning to question what this "health care reform" bill is really all about, for example. Slowly, they're beginning to realize, as many of us already know, that this health care reform (so called) is really not about health care at all -- that the fundamental issue here is one of personal liberties.

A very good friend of ours -- a like-minded conservative -- emailed us recently and related an experience she had with a very liberal colleague of hers after she broached this "public option" health care nonsense with her. At first, her colleague's reaction was typical -- got very defensive, thought the whole idea was great, yada, yada, yada. But then when our friend showed this other woman some things that are actually in the bill, her co-worker's reaction and demeanor changed dramatically. She was actually appalled by what she read.

Anecdotal story? You bet. But apparently, more and more of these kinds of stories are surfacing every day. And, of course, how the liberal politicians are handling criticism of this health care reform" issue isn't helping their cause. People are beginning to see liberal politicians for the scum they really are.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

So violence is now starting as the Obama thugs/union boys get involved.
Typical - we all knew what Barry the Bruiser was all about from the get go.
Chicago thug - nothing more than a street pig.

Guess what, Barry - we ain't gonna shut up.

Yeah....Barry The Great Uniter! :rolleyes:

Someone was telling me yesterday that BO's cage is coming apart -- that he basically demanded (just like a true blue narcissist would) of the Republicans that they stand down -- step aside -- keep their mouths shut so this bill could get passed because, after all, this entire health care "crisis" is all their fault.

Boxcar

[lsbets]

Well, they had a huge turnout. 4 times what they had last week. No mob, no one was paid to be here, but there was a lot of anger about what is being shoved down our throats. There is something percolating out there, and it seems like it could boil over if Obama and his cohorts continues to use their thuggish brownshirt tactics to get their way. Things could get really interesting.

[ArlJim78]

my name is Barack Obama, and I approved this message.


http://lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2009-08-07-RTMUZ.jpg

[Snag]

Please help me with a reference. I remember Hilter said something very close to ob statement.

[Marshall Bennett]

Well they have a lot in common . :)

[PaceAdvantage]

my name is Barack Obama, and I approved this message.


http://lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2009-08-07-RTMUZ.jpgI remember when hcap used to post cute little anti-Bush posters like this all the time....it warms my heart to see such turnabout...I wonder if Indulto feels the same way?

[Tom]

Now, now...we must show proper respect for the prezdenant of Amerika...

[lsbets]

I remember when hcap used to post cute little anti-Bush posters like this all the time....it warms my heart to see such turnabout...I wonder if Indulto feels the same way?

I'm sure he feels Tom is a racist nazi for even thinking about posting it.

Remember PA, this is the new America. Dissent will no longer be tolerated. Report your friends, neighbors, and family members if they get out of line. Those who object to the new ways must be monitored. Maybe at some point they will be lucky enough to be reeducated. All hail Obama!

[boxcar]

Long Live King Obama, whose every wish is our command.

Boxcar

[ArlJim78]

this caller to CSPAN was pretty good. her point is a good one, if they're willing to lie about the protesters being part of a mob coordinated by various special interest groups, why should anyone believe them about what is in the bill?

oPnd_GqnV3c

[boxcar]

this caller to CSPAN was pretty good. her point is a good one, if they're willing to lie about the protesters being part of a mob coordinated by various special interest groups, why should anyone believe them about what is in the bill?

oPnd_GqnV3c



I can't speak for "anyone" in your question. However, statists never seemed to have a problem embracing lies. This is probably due to their habit of calling Good Evil and Evil Good. They tend to get these things mixed up quite often. I think how their mind processes lies is that when a fellow-lib deceives, they consider that a good thing if it advances their cause. In other words, the end justifies the means.

Boxcar