Loved Jess Jackson's Interview

[positive4th]

That was great.........Steve A. deferred on the Z-RA "matchup" question, and JJ comes right out and says it............no way that horse is running in the Breeders Cup or any synth track in CA, which we already knew, but I love hearing him say it

[andymays]

That was great.........Steve A. deferred on the Z-RA "matchup" question, and JJ comes right out and says it............no way that horse is running in the Breeders Cup or any synth track in CA, which we already knew, but I love hearing him say it


Good for Jackson. Take a stand against that synthetic crap!

[positive4th]

Yeah, and I think today made it pretty clear - - - they'll run against anyone anytime anywhere..........they're not ducking Zenyatta, just avoiding synth.

[andymays]

Yeah, and I think today made it pretty clear - - - they'll run against anyone anytime anywhere..........they're not ducking Zenyatta, just avoiding synth.


With the trouble Del Mar has had recently I'm hoping Zenyatta doesn't run there. I hope they both meet up in a month or two somewhere on a quality dirt surface!

[Old Sparky]

I am with you 100%. Z real dirt bring it on OS

[positive4th]

With the trouble Del Mar has had recently I'm hoping Zenyatta doesn't run there. I hope they both meet up in a month or two somewhere on a quality dirt surface!

Zenyatta is scheduled of course to run here on August 9th............but here's to hoping that she doesn't, its too dangerous at DMR right now

[DeanT]

I say boo to Jess Jackson.

Owners making political statements with their horses throughout history have screwed up horse racing more than any polytrack has. This is horse racing, not owners of horses racing.

If he does not race that wonderful filly in the BC where the World wants to see her and where she belongs, he is nothing more than a cheap opportunist who would do a whole lot more for racing by getting his ass out of the game and letting people own horses who actually want to race horses.

Jess Jackson rant over :faint:

[Pell Mell]

Yeah, and who knows, had Jackson bought her back in April we might have had a triple crown filly.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I say boo to Jess Jackson.

Owners making political statements with their horses throughout history have screwed up horse racing more than any polytrack has. This is horse racing, not owners of horses racing.

If he does not race that wonderful filly in the BC where the World wants to see her and where she belongs, he is nothing more than a cheap opportunist who would do a whole lot more for racing by getting his ass out of the game and letting people own horses who actually want to race horses.

Jess Jackson rant over :faint:



Geeze..Who peed on your cornflakes

[positive4th]

I say boo to Jess Jackson.

Owners making political statements with their horses throughout history have screwed up horse racing more than any polytrack has. This is horse racing, not owners of horses racing.

If he does not race that wonderful filly in the BC where the World wants to see her and where she belongs, he is nothing more than a cheap opportunist who would do a whole lot more for racing by getting his ass out of the game and letting people own horses who actually want to race horses.

Jess Jackson rant over :faint:

I'll be honest, your rant isn't super-great PR for HANA........if he ducks it for her health and well being, doesn't seem like an "opportunist" move to me........he could make alot more cash and put his horse in what he perceives to be alot more danger by NOT skipping the BC, I'll actually applaud him for doing it when it happens.

[DeanT]

Geeze..Who peed on your cornflakes

Hey Tom,

Just having a little fun. :)

Boo to Jess Jackson.............. BOOO!

I'll be honest, your rant isn't super-great PR for HANA

My name is DeanT.

[andymays]

I say boo to Jess Jackson.

Owners making political statements with their horses throughout history have screwed up horse racing more than any polytrack has. This is horse racing, not owners of horses racing.

If he does not race that wonderful filly in the BC where the World wants to see her and where she belongs, he is nothing more than a cheap opportunist who would do a whole lot more for racing by getting his ass out of the game and letting people own horses who actually want to race horses.

Jess Jackson rant over :faint:


Dean, you guys should pay attention to the anti synthetic members a little more. It's akin to the Race Tracks not paying attention to the customers. You know the majority of Horseplayers despise them. The Pro synthetic lobby has had HRTV and TVG and most of the journalists pushing them for years now. It's about time the truth is getting out about synthetic surfaces and Santa Anita is the worst of all. Nearly 50% carryovers during their last meet. Is that good for Horseplayers?

There's my rant for the day! ;)

[ryanxpress]

Agree 100%

[Relwob Owner]

I say boo to Jess Jackson.

Owners making political statements with their horses throughout history have screwed up horse racing more than any polytrack has. This is horse racing, not owners of horses racing.

If he does not race that wonderful filly in the BC where the World wants to see her and where she belongs, he is nothing more than a cheap opportunist who would do a whole lot more for racing by getting his ass out of the game and letting people own horses who actually want to race horses.

Jess Jackson rant over :faint:


Even though I definitely disagree with you, I always like a nice rant and also the acknowledgement of it afterwards.....I guess my take is love him or hate him, RA may still be running against fillies only if he hadnt bought her.....

[DeanT]

Andy,

"Members" talk is on another board.

Do you want the world deprived of seeing this mare at the World Championships? I don't. That is what I am saying as a racefan. If they raced on jello or cottage cheese I would want to see her there. I want to see her take on the world, anyplace, anytime, and beat them and hopefully grow the sport a little bit. She is a wonderful filly.

[andymays]

Andy,

"Members" talk is on another board.

Do you want the world deprived of seeing this mare at the World Championships? I don't. That is what I am saying as a racefan. If they raced on jello or cottage cheese I would want to see her there. I want to see her take on the world, anyplace, anytime, and beat them and hopefully grow the sport a little bit. She is a wonderful filly.


I would love to see them race on a dirt surface in the next few months. Very few that run on or near the lead did well at Santa Anita. Do you remember last years Breeders cup on the Pro Ride? How many did well on or near the lead? Of all the synthetic surfaces Santa Anita's is bad bad bad. I have a mind to bring out the Bruno email but DanG would get pissed at me!

I am with you as a fan and I do want to see them run against one another. I think the connections for Zenyatta are being a little too conservative. Shireffs and Moss both said they prefer dirt so they need to get on the engine and make it happen!

[bisket]

it would definately be in the best intrests of racing to watch them compete (zen and rachel). i agree with andy most definately here. the poly would definately mute rachels talents to the degree that if they raced on poly it wouldn't tell us who's best. poly, santa anita in particular, seems to play like soft turf. the horse with the last run wins the vast majority of times. now in sprints it doesn't seem to have this bias. the speed does seem to hold at the shorter distances if that horse is the best in the race. poly is fair at 7 furs or less.

[DeanT]

I have a mind to bring out the Bruno email but DanG would get pissed at me!


:D That is too funny.

Ya, I am with you. Not my first choice (SAX) being a bettor there, but for pure majesty of seeing this filly, or this filly against that filly I think they could race on Mars and I would watch!

[speed]

Geeze..Who peed on your cornflakes

Himself

Not to mention that if Jess Jackson had never purchased Rachel the world never would have seen her beat the boys. We would all be wishing that she try the boys instead we a superstar who is helping this sport when it needs it badly.

Mike

[andymays]

:D That is too funny.

Ya, I am with you. Not my first choice (SAX) being a bettor there, but for pure majesty of seeing this filly, or this filly against that filly I think they could race on Mars and I would watch!


You know Santa Anita was my favorite Track. Being there was like being in heaven and I loved going there for the weekend. But I refuse to go up there as long as they have a synthetic surface. I haven't been there since they put the synthetic junk in and I won't go until it's gone.

[Canarsie]

We can agrue this to the end of time but I read on other sites that's Monmouth's internet video was overrun and people couldn't watch. This filly in two races has generated more public interest than any other horse in a long time. JJ spent 10 million on her and raced against the boys twice it's not like he's scared.

You can say that about the BC but didn't Zenyatta scratch out of the Louisville Distaff because it was sloppy? Always two sides to a coin.

Last year's champion older female Zenyatta has been scratched from the $350,000 Louisville Distaff (gr. II) May 1, it was confirmed by the Churchill Downs racing office.

The 4-5 morning-line favorite, Zenyatta was scheduled to make her 5-year-old debut at Churchill Downs, but due to heavy rain in Louisville, Ky., that caused the track to become sloppy, trainer John Shirreffs decided to postpone her first race of the year. Undefeated in nine lifetime starts, the daughter of Street Cry last raced when taking the Breeders' Cup Ladies Classic (gr. I) Oct. 24 at Santa Anita Park.

“She is just starting off this year, and this is a grade II, it’s not the Breeders’ Cup,” Shirreffs told The Blood-Horse April 30 when hinting that the scratch would be likley if the weather did not cooperate. “It’s a long year."

Zenyatta, who is owned by Jerry and Ann Moss, has made only one career start on natural dirt, that coming in her Apple Blossom Handicap (gr. I) victory last April at Oaklawn Park. The track was labeled fast that day. Her other starts have come on synthetic surfaces in California.

[miesque]

Dean, you guys should pay attention to the anti synthetic members a little more. It's akin to the Race Tracks not paying attention to the customers. You know the majority of Horseplayers despise them. The Pro synthetic lobby has had HRTV and TVG and most of the journalists pushing them for years now. It's about time the truth is getting out about synthetic surfaces and Santa Anita is the worst of all. Nearly 50% carryovers during their last meet. Is that good for Horseplayers?

There's my rant for the day! ;)

My goodness you are a one-trick pony, must every conversation come back to this. I sure hope your poor wife/girlfriend doesn't have to listen to these constant anti-synth rants.

[andymays]

My goodness you are a one-trick pony, must every conversation come back to this. I sure hope your poor wife/girlfriend doesn't have to listen to these constant anti-synth rants.


Miesqe, Miesque, Miesque

I think Jess Jackson brought it up and that's what the thread is about no?

And by the way everyone has to listen to my anti synthetic rants. To say I'm an man on a mission would be an understatement! :)

How about that Rachel?

[CincyHorseplayer]

Because synthetic surfaces are indeed a 3rd surface,nothing can be proven on them IMO.Good old fashioned God made dirt has been here since the beginning of time.This new hybrid doesn't have the luxury or respect to declare it's surface born champions as the goal to topple.JJ is making a stand for the better of his horse and she's a beast.Zenyatta is a California champion that races on a foreign surface and won't leave the state.There is no comparison because it's 2 different divisions.Zenyatta is the synthetic female champion and Rachel Alexandra is the dirt female champion.If you have two completely different surfaces the acknowledgement has to be divided off.They are not interchangeable.The BC needs a day 3 to set things straight.3 surfaces,3 sets of championship races.JJ is just pointing out the obvious.

[jballscalls]

My goodness you are a one-trick pony, must every conversation come back to this. I sure hope your poor wife/girlfriend doesn't have to listen to these constant anti-synth rants.

i thought his only rants were about players being treated badly by the tracks

[miesque]

Miesqe, Miesque, Miesque

I think Jess Jackson brought it up and that's what the thread is about no?

And by the way everyone has to listen to my anti synthetic rants. To say I'm an man on a mission would be an understatement! :)

How about that Rachel?


Well, I suppose I should give you credit for not bringing quoting Bruno's e-mail for the millionth time. ;)

As for Rachel, what can you say other then the fact that was a phenomenal effort and definitely her best race to date.

[andymays]

Well, I suppose I should give you credit for not bringing quoting Bruno's e-mail for the millionth time. ;)

As for Rachel, what can you say other then the fact that was a phenomenal effort and definitely her best race to date.


Rachel was very impressive. I wasn't a true believer until today.

To be accurate I only brought the Bruno email up a few times (maybe 10). I reserve the right to bring it up in the future when Oak Tree at Santa Anita starts. The statute of limitations will have expired by then.

[CBedo]

it would definately be in the best intrests of racing to watch them compete (zen and rachel). i agree with andy most definately here. the poly would definately mute rachels talents to the degree that if they raced on poly it wouldn't tell us who's best. poly, santa anita in particular, seems to play like soft turf. the horse with the last run wins the vast majority of times. now in sprints it doesn't seem to have this bias. the speed does seem to hold at the shorter distances if that horse is the best in the race. poly is fair at 7 furs or less.Although I'd obviously love to see it, I'm not sure it would be good for racing (except that day) for them to race. Why not keep them both winning and keep everyone wondering when the two super women of racing will meet? There is more buzz with them not racing.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Although I'd obviously love to see it, I'm not sure it would be good for racing (except that day) for them to race. Why not keep them both winning and keep everyone wondering when the two super women of racing will meet? There is more buzz with them not racing.

Let's just go with a neutral surface and have them race in the Arc De Triomph to decide superiority.That would be good for the globalization of racing:cool:

[Canarsie]

Just a thought but I wonder how much money a TV outlet would bid for a race between them and the size of the purse. My gut tells me ratings would be higher than the Derby people would even peel away from football for a bit to watch.

Think about it the race of the decade would be between a filly and mare who would have ever thought that would happen?

[fmolf]

I say boo to Jess Jackson.

Owners making political statements with their horses throughout history have screwed up horse racing more than any polytrack has. This is horse racing, not owners of horses racing.

If he does not race that wonderful filly in the BC where the World wants to see her and where she belongs, he is nothing more than a cheap opportunist who would do a whole lot more for racing by getting his ass out of the game and letting people own horses who actually want to race horses.

Jess Jackson rant over :faint:
the chrb made their political statement with their polycrap mandate.Jess Jackson is not afraid to speak his mind about this sensitive topic and should be commended for it.Blame the breeders cup selection committe for choosing Santa Anita two years in a row.A disgrace in its own right!

[sandpit]

Wonder if Jackson was worried with what transpired earlier on the Monmouth card? The breakdowns on the sloppy track had to raise some concerns over its safety.

[fmolf]

Wonder if Jackson was worried with what transpired earlier on the Monmouth card? The breakdowns on the sloppy track had to raise some concerns over its safety.
I certainly would have been.One was on the turf and the horses were ok, the other on the main track the horse had to be euthanized.

[PaceAdvantage]

Zenyatta is scheduled of course to run here on August 9th............but here's to hoping that she doesn't, its too dangerous at DMR right nowShould we just forget that a horse broke down (on dirt) earlier on the Haskell card?

I'm no synthetic fanboy (far from it), but saying "it's too dangerous at DMR right now" is hyperbole when a horse broke down on the same track only hours before Rachel ran in the Haskell.

Let's keep things in proper perspective here...

[gm10]

That was great.........Steve A. deferred on the Z-RA "matchup" question, and JJ comes right out and says it............no way that horse is running in the Breeders Cup or any synth track in CA, which we already knew, but I love hearing him say it

What happened to sportsmanship? Isn't sport about finding the best athletes? Can't believe he is running scared like this.

[Indulto]

I think it's too early to get one's bowels in an uproar over JJ regarding the BC.

This time last year he was saying the same things about Curlin, who unlike Rachel, had no prior synthetic experience. Once BB was out of the running, and there was no chance he could be beaten by his only other true HOTY rival, JJ "risked" his prize in the BC after all.

My conclusion from the Haskell is that Rachel is beating up on a bad crop of three year olds. Having now beaten the Belmont winner as well as the Derby winner who lost again on Saturday, she has nothing to gain from running in the Travers. She now only has to face older males as does Zenyatta to become HOTY. Since she is proven at 1-1/8 m, the Woodward is the perfect opportunity for her to get that out of the way. If she wins that she's HOTY even if Zenyatta were to win the BC Classic.

So if Moss truly wants HOTY for Zenyatta, he's got to come after Rachel who could only avoid her by running in races for 3YO filiies like the Alabama instead of either the Personal Ensign or the Woodward. Such a move would bring a flock of Boo JJ Birds migrating to Saratoga.;)

[rokitman]

My goodness you are a one-trick pony, must every conversation come back to this. I sure hope your poor wife/girlfriend doesn't have to listen to these constant anti-synth rants.
I thought you had a far different destination for that "one-trick pony" and "poor wife/girlfriend" line of thought.

[miesque]

I thought you had a far different destination for that "one-trick pony" and "poor wife/girlfriend" line of thought.

I must have been in an unusually charitable mood when I posted.

[Bruddah]

What happened to sportsmanship? Isn't sport about finding the best athletes? Can't believe he is running scared like this.

I can see by your unbiased opinions that Jess Jackson should be the only horse owner to exhibit this "Sportsmanship". I think the man has gone further than many owners in recent memory. If I'm wrong please give a detailed list of those which qualify under your standards.

I, for one, look forward to a Curlin-Rachel Alexandra colt or filly. It may be just the excitement this Sport needs. May Mr Jackson live in good health to see that one race, and many more. :ThmbUp:

[gm10]

I can see by your unbiased opinions that Jess Jackson should be the only horse owner to exhibit this "Sportsmanship". I think the man has gone further than many owners in recent memory. If I'm wrong please give a detailed list of those which qualify under your standards.

Which owners in particular are you refering to? In my opinion, most owners/trainers have no problem in bringing their best horses to the Breeders Cup - the unofficial world championships. What is his problem? What is he afraid of? Because one of his horses got beat by better animals on the day, he is afraid to try again. What is that all about.

I, for one, look forward to a Curlin-Rachel Alexandra colt or filly. It may be just the excitement this Sport needs. May Mr Jackson live in good health to see that one race, and many more. :ThmbUp: Amen to that.

[Bruddah]

Sorry gm10, but I need specifics rather than your generic shotgun of an answer. The answer for $500 Alex is, there haven't been any in recent memory. Owners have always placed their horses in situations that was best for the horse. Now if there are any plastic horses which would like to challenge RA on dirt, bring them on and you can declare thier owners to be Sportsmen. If they lose, you can still call them Sportsmen. If they don't want to run their horse(s) on dirt again, we will let you insist on calling them Sportmen.

[positive4th]

What happened to sportsmanship? Isn't sport about finding the best athletes? Can't believe he is running scared like this.

He's not running scared - - she runs when he and Asmussen say that she does, end of story...........no matter what the Monmouth surface was like yesterday, they don't have to run her on Synth. if they don't want to.

Now say the BC rolls around, ESPECIALLY if she doesn't run the Woodward or Travers, and he decides to ship her out here............that's fine, too, I'm simply applauding his honesty at the moment.

[JustRalph]

I am no fan of Jess Jackson.............

But he will be damned if he does/damned if he don't.............

the only terrible thing he can do is get her hurt.........if he does that he is more of a villain than ever............

I hope Meg Diloro sires a few more like her........and I can't wait to see what her first couple of foals do............

Rachel doesn't have to do anything more to impress me..........

[andymays]

Why Rachel should go to Santa Anita

http://www.thatsamorestable.net/blog/?p=280

Excerpt:

In the moments after Rachel Alexandra’s obliteration of six overmatched rivals in yesterday’s Haskell, majority owner Jess Jackson proclaimed, “We’re not going to the Breeders’ Cup.”
He needs to reconsider.



My advice is stay away from the Pro Ride at Santa Anita!

[gm10]

Sorry gm10, but I need specifics rather than your generic shotgun of an answer. The answer for $500 Alex is, there haven't been any in recent memory. Owners have always placed their horses in situations that was best for the horse. Now if there are any plastic horses which would like to challenge RA on dirt, bring them on and you can declare thier owners to be Sportsmen. If they lose, you can still call them Sportsmen. If they don't want to run their horse(s) on dirt again, we will let you insist on calling them Sportmen.

OK, maybe I chose the wrong word for you.

For me, sport is about finding the best athlete. This owner is clearly not interested in this. He is protecting either his ego, or the breeding value of his horse. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but mine is that sport should not be about ego's or money.

Full respect to Tim Ice, trainer of Summer Bird, in this respect. He could have picked a million easier spots, but went against Rachel Alexandra on a track that would clearly never suit his horse even if it had stayed dry.

[FenceBored]

OK, maybe I chose the wrong word for you.

For me, sport is about finding the best athlete. This owner is clearly not interested in this. He is protecting either his ego, or the breeding value of his horse. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but mine is that sport should not be about ego's or money.


I guess the Europeans aren't interested in "finding the best athlete" either, since they don't like to bring their best over to race on dirt. To quote, um, you:

Maybe nobody comes over [to race in the JCGC] because nobody in the rest of the world cares about dirt?

So, in your view its alright for European owners to refuse to run their horses over a surface they don't care for regardless of how their horses might perform, but it's not alright for Jess Jackson to bypass a surface he doesn't care for? :bang:

Personally, if the Europeans, or the Aussies, or the Japanese, or the Chinese, etc. don't want to run their horses on dirt tracks I don't think they should have to run them on dirt in order to satisfy the desires of you, me, or anyone else. And if Jess Jackson doesn't want to run his horses on the turf, or synthetics, or marshmallows, or whatever, he should be free to do so without being harassed about it constantly.

Gov. Jones chose not to run his 3 yr old filly Proud Spell in the Ladies Classic last year because he felt she wouldn't perform well on the synthetic track, and I don't remember this level of abuse being heaped upon him.

[gm10]

I guess the Europeans aren't interested in "finding the best athlete" either, since they don't like to bring their best over to race on dirt. To quote, um, you:



So, in your view its alright for European owners to refuse to run their horses over a surface they don't care for regardless of how their horses might perform, but it's not alright for Jess Jackson to bypass a surface he doesn't care for? :bang:

What kind of nonsense is that. Why should they send over their horses for that when the Arc is on at the same time? The Arc is the biggest race of the year in Europe, and without a doubt of the same status as any Breeders Cup race, let alone the JCGC. Why not send some American horses for the Arc. That would make more sense. Wasn't there talk of Curlin coming to the Arc at some point? I guess that plan hit some red rocks.


Personally, if the Europeans, or the Aussies, or the Japanese, or the Chinese, etc. don't want to run their horses on dirt tracks I don't think they should have to run them on dirt in order to satisfy the desires of you, me, or anyone else. And if Jess Jackson doesn't want to run his horses on the turf, or synthetics, or marshmallows, or whatever, he should be free to do so without being harassed about it constantly.

I'm not harassing him, you are overestimating my influence here. But I'm disappointed. The BC is not about the surface, it's about finding the division leaders. Imagina Zenyatta, Rachel A. in the same race. Maybe even Sariska, Ghanaati. That would be the race of the decade, THAT would be good for the sport, regardless of the winner.


Gov. Jones chose not to run his 3 yr old filly Proud Spell in the Ladies Classic last year because he felt she wouldn't perform well on the synthetic track, and I don't remember this level of abuse being heaped upon him.

Hold the phone, that filly's form in the summer was not the same as in the spring, and only after her defeat in philly did Jones confirm that they weren't going. Before that he had first said no, and then again changed his mind saying that they maight be going after all. Only after her defeat agst Seattle Smooth did he rule her out. Imo this was a filly who didn't mature much after the spring of 2008, and he knew it. No disrepect to the man, his other filly ran a tragic second the day after she should have won agst her own sex.

[DeanT]

I guess the Europeans aren't interested in "finding the best athlete" either, since they don't like to bring their best over to race on dirt. To quote, um, you:



So, in your view its alright for European owners to refuse to run their horses over a surface they don't care for regardless of how their horses might perform, but it's not alright for Jess Jackson to bypass a surface he doesn't care for? :bang:

Personally, if the Europeans, or the Aussies, or the Japanese, or the Chinese, etc. don't want to run their horses on dirt tracks I don't think they should have to run them on dirt in order to satisfy the desires of you, me, or anyone else. And if Jess Jackson doesn't want to run his horses on the turf, or synthetics, or marshmallows, or whatever, he should be free to do so without being harassed about it constantly.

Gov. Jones chose not to run his 3 yr old filly Proud Spell in the Ladies Classic last year because he felt she wouldn't perform well on the synthetic track, and I don't remember this level of abuse being heaped upon him.

Fair post, imo. But Proud Spell is not RA, therein lies the rub.

Jess Jackson always has said that he was here for the fans. He ran that poll on his website asking "fans" where he should run Curlin and said he would listen. This year it was good for racing if Rachel raced the boys as he said. Bravo Mr. Jackson.

But now we see what? Skipping the BC. It is a complete 180.

He can't have it both ways. If he was consistent he would run a poll on his website asking if the "fans" want him to race Rachel in the BC. But he won't.

He will be criticized for this decision by race fans, and I dont care how people feel about poly one way or the other...... if you look at it dispassionately and on how he approached these same issues in the past, the fans who do disagree with him will have a fair point, imo.

[FenceBored]

What kind of nonsense is that. Why should they send over their horses for that when the Arc is on at the same time? The Arc is the biggest race of the year in Europe, and without a doubt of the same status as any Breeders Cup race, let alone the JCGC. Why not send some American horses for the Arc. That would make more sense. Wasn't there talk of Curlin coming to the Arc at some point? I guess that plan hit some red rocks.


It doesn't matter what the race is or where it is, or when it is, the Europeans prefer not to send their best to run on dirt. Do you see all the top turf horses from Europe going to run on the dirt in Dubai in March? No, you may see a couple, but not all the best. Why? Like you said: THEY DON"T LIKE DIRT. That's fine. I thought I heard the new Dubai track is going to be synthetic. That might attract a few more Europeans.

Europeans sent more horses to run on the main track in the Breeders Cup last year than they generally do. Why? Because they felt that their turf horses would not be at a disadvantage as they would over a dirt course. The results validated that thinking. The main track winners were, with one exception, horses who excelled on AW and turf. Only Midnight Lute (whose prior start was at Dmr) could be called primarily a dirt horse.


I'm not harassing him, you are overestimating my influence here.


You may be the one whose post I responded to, but you are hardly the only one on this board, or off it, to be saying these same things, endlessly; every interview with Jackson, every article on Rachel, column after column, thread after thread.


But I'm disappointed. The BC is not about the surface, it's about finding the division leaders.


Do they flip a coin at the beginning of the day to decide whether to run the Breeders Cup Mile or the Filly/Mare Turf over the main or on the turf? Have they ever run the Classic on the turf? No, and they shouldn't, that's why they have a Breeders Cup Turf. Surface is one of the main divisional markers, along with age, sex, and distance.

If owners feel the makeup of the racing surface would sufficiently compromise their horse's chances of performing at the horse's best, then they're not wrong to not run them. How many times do you hear of someone not sending horse X to run in this or that turf stake because the horse prefers a firmer (or softer) footing than that course has? Nobody thinks a thing about it. Nobody makes big deal over it, because it's not a big deal. Or, at least it shouldn't be.

[FenceBored]

Fair post, imo. But Proud Spell is not RA, therein lies the rub.

Jess Jackson always has said that he was here for the fans. He ran that poll on his website asking "fans" where he should run Curlin and said he would listen. This year it was good for racing if Rachel raced the boys as he said. Bravo Mr. Jackson.

But now we see what? Skipping the BC. It is a complete 180.

He can't have it both ways. If he was consistent he would run a poll on his website asking if the "fans" want him to race Rachel in the BC. But he won't.

He will be criticized for this decision by race fans, and I dont care how people feel about poly one way or the other...... if you look at it dispassionately and on how he approached these same issues in the past, the fans who do disagree with him will have a fair point, imo.

You're right that Jackson has brought some of this on himself, but Dolph Morrison was starting to get it before he sold Rachel, and while he said some dumb things, he didn't try to put himself out there in the spotlight like Jackson does. Certain horses just seem to cause fans (and the press) to get a little crazy, and the connections better watch out when it happens.

The "what the fans want" approach is never a good one to take, imo. Sooner or later you're going to run into a situation where what you feel is best, as the decision maker, is different than what the fans want, whether it's trading a fading star who's no longer happy with the team, or passing on the local kid who's in the draft, or selling a presenter's credit for aTriple Crown race to YUM! Brands or Blackberry.

I think there is a point where the level of criticism gets to be over the top. We've passed that point with Jess Jackson already, and the BC is still about 3 months away. Will people start burning the effigies this month, or will they wait until mid-September?

[fmolf]

i have to agree with you .Aw definitely reduces RA pace advantage over her rivals ....I also believe that Mr Jackson is a man that relishes the limelight so i would not be surprised if he does run her but could not fault him if he does not!Maybe all the breakdowns are a result of the poly not being maintained properly because of the extra unaccounted for expense of doing it the right way.I am sure Jackson and asmussen have their reasons and will continue to bandy it about as the time nears

[PaceAdvantage]

She now only has to face older males as does Zenyatta to become HOTY.So absolutely not true. If neither of them faced older males this year, it wouldn't hurt their HOTY chances one bit...for this would mean that an older horse has some sort of claim to HOTY at this point, and I for one can't think of one...

[Indulto]

So absolutely not true. If neither of them faced older males this year, it wouldn't hurt their HOTY chances one bit...for this would mean that an older horse has some sort of claim to HOTY at this point, and I for one can't think of one...Einstein is already a legit candidate and Macho Again who beat him in the Stephen Foster might be one also if he wins the Whitney. If Well Armed wasn't injured Sunday, he is still the leading money winner.

[PaceAdvantage]

Einstein is already a legit candidate and Macho Again who beat him in the Stephen Foster might be one also if he wins the Whitney.Einstein, a winner of a pro-ride Grade 1 and a Turf Grade 1 has a claim to HOY? OK, I'll give you that one, but it's a stretch in my book.

But to throw Macho Again in there (and to add the "if he wins the Whitney" condition on top of it) is not even funny...my humble opinion of course...

[gm10]

It doesn't matter what the race is or where it is, or when it is, the Europeans prefer not to send their best to run on dirt. Do you see all the top turf horses from Europe going to run on the dirt in Dubai in March? No, you may see a couple, but not all the best. Why? Like you said: THEY DON"T LIKE DIRT. That's fine. I thought I heard the new Dubai track is going to be synthetic. That might attract a few more Europeans.

Dude, there's plenty of turf racing in Dubai as well. The best horses don't go there because it's not where the best horses go.

You might as well be claiming that American owners aren't interested in finding the best because they're not sending their horses to Delta Downs, where (like in Dubai) there is plenty of money and a few good races.

Europeans sent more horses to run on the main track in the Breeders Cup last year than they generally do. Why? Because they felt that their turf horses would not be at a disadvantage as they would over a dirt course. The results validated that thinking. The main track winners were, with one exception, horses who excelled on AW and turf. Only Midnight Lute (whose prior start was at Dmr) could be called primarily a dirt horse.

Hmm, why would you say that they sent more main track horses? Give me the 2009 number and the ones from the earlier years.
Leaving out the Marathon which hasn't been run on the dirt, I can only see Rebellion, Bushranger, Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator for 2009.

You may be the one whose post I responded to, but you are hardly the only one on this board, or off it, to be saying these same things, endlessly; every interview with Jackson, every article on Rachel, column after column, thread after thread.



Do they flip a coin at the beginning of the day to decide whether to run the Breeders Cup Mile or the Filly/Mare Turf over the main or on the turf? Have they ever run the Classic on the turf? No, and they shouldn't, that's why they have a Breeders Cup Turf. Surface is one of the main divisional markers, along with age, sex, and distance.

If owners feel the makeup of the racing surface would sufficiently compromise their horse's chances of performing at the horse's best, then they're not wrong to not run them. How many times do you hear of someone not sending horse X to run in this or that turf stake because the horse prefers a firmer (or softer) footing than that course has? Nobody thinks a thing about it. Nobody makes big deal over it, because it's not a big deal. Or, at least it shouldn't be.

Well, the Classic is run at Santa Anita this year, so I guess that where the champion will be crowned. In my opinion, the SA poly is closer to the BEL/CD dirt than the old SA dirt ever was, but anyway.

[NY BRED]

a: The synthetic surface is an idea/invention to supposedly lessen injury
to thoroughbreds and Jockeys.It is my understanding continual racing
on synthetic surfaces causes back issues whcih can be as detremental
to horses and injuries incurred on dirt tracks.

That said, in light of Curlin's defeat last year on synthetic, Mr. J.
should rightfully refuse to run on synthetic.In addition, his filly just defeated
the Belmont winner in hand, and as I predicted in an earlier post has
demonstrated she is an e/p runner, not early.

Compare that running style to Zenyata and inmho I'd want the tactical
speed Of Rachel any day in a Breeders Cup or any Grade I event.

Zenyata has run in relatively boring races on synthetic and not
faced Grade I and II males.

At this point, were both fillies retired could there ever be a doubt
who is the eclipse winner as filly and yes, potentially best horse of the year?

[gm10]

a: The synthetic surface is an idea/invention to supposedly lessen injury
to thoroughbreds and Jockeys.It is my understanding continual racing
on synthetic surfaces causes back issues whcih can be as detremental
to horses and injuries incurred on dirt tracks.

That said, in light of Curlin's defeat last year on synthetic, Mr. J.
should rightfully refuse to run on synthetic.In addition, his filly just defeated
the Belmont winner in hand, and as I predicted in an earlier post has
demonstrated she is an e/p runner, not early.

Compare that running style to Zenyata and inmho I'd want the tactical
speed Of Rachel any day in a Breeders Cup or any Grade I event.

Zenyata has run in relatively boring races on synthetic and not
faced Grade I and II males.

At this point, were both fillies retired could there ever be a doubt
who is the eclipse winner as filly and yes, potentially best horse of the year?

But they won't be retired eyt so it depends on what both will do in the second half of the year, I suppose. Personally I rate R.A. higher as well, I always get ratings which are about 2 lengths quicker than Zenyatta.

I don't agree with your opinion that he shouldn't run RA because he lost with Curlin. Maybe Aidain O'Brien should stay home because he lost with Henrythenavigator? Maybe Godolphin should stay home because Music Note and Cocoa Beach didn't win? Baffert got his short priced Indian Blessing beaten, should he stay away as well?

[david botsford]

Einstein, a winner of a pro-ride Grade 1 and a Turf Grade 1 has a claim to HOY? OK, I'll give you that one, but it's a stretch in my book.

But to throw Macho Again in there (and to add the "if he wins the Whitney" condition on top of it) is not even funny...my humble opinion of course...I respectfully must disagree throwing Macho Again in there is FUNNY

[Indulto]

I respectfully must disagree throwing Macho Again in there is FUNNYI enjoy making people laugh, even unintentionally. I didn't think it was funny at the time, but I sure smiled when i cashed tickets including him in his victories in LA and KY.

He fits the "horses for courses" category at SAR and could help his cause tremendously with wins in the Whitney and Woodward with or without women. I admit that Einstein was best in the Foster, But MA is improving.

I repeat: RA is only the best 3YO so far.

[fmolf]

i understand the boys will be maturing now and growing into their bodies,i still do not see any horse improving enough to beat her.

[horses4courses]

A suitable race exists at Saratoga for the 2 heavyweights to meet:

The Woodward on 9/5/09, over 9 furlongs, leaves 27 days of rest for Zenyatta, after this coming weekend. She should be fine with that.

Shirreffs has had bad experiences shipping to NY in the past, with
Giacomo and Tiago, so he may baulk. Those horses, IMO, are not as good as his champion mare.

Outside of this, I guess the JCGC at Belmont, or the Clark Handicap
at Churchill, after Breeders' Cup, are also possibilities.

The sport would undoubtedly benefit from this match-up.

[NY BRED]

GM: While I think we both agree on RA the issue here is
Rachel has run at various tracks and beaten the boys, and while
some may argue dirt is the same, Big Sandy, MTH , CD etc are
quite different and more challenging tracks seen in the classic
eyes of an Eclipse Judge.

The synthetic issue of being safer to rider and Jockey still is unclear
as witnessed to date, I don't envision the balance of major tracks jumping to
replace their surfaces in the immediate future.

Why would you, as an owner, shlep your brilliant filly to run on a
surface she may not like, to face a filly who only knows how to run on Synthetic?.This very question can be reversed to Zenyata who never has run on dirt, which, I agree will never be resolved unless Zenyata :
either runs against the boys on synthetic in a grade I
or meets RA and the boys on Dirt.
or both owners experiment racing each filly in a race with fillies and /or boys on the turf, which again is doubtful.

This all said, INMHO Zenyata MUST prove she is a better filly than
RA by facing the filly on the dirt based upon the class of horses
Rachel has beaten to date.

[DeanT]

Since Z has run on dirt, and Rachel has won on poly it seems the most logical thing they should do is meet in the BC, no matter what the surface is.

Then again, logic and horse racing don't ever seem to have paths that cross.

[FenceBored]

Since Z has run on dirt, and Rachel has won on poly it seems the most logical thing they should do is meet in the BC, no matter what the surface is.

Then again, logic and horse racing don't ever seem to have paths that cross.

I agree, they should both run against Forever Together in the Filly & Mare Turf.

[miesque]

I agree, they should both run against Forever Together in the Filly & Mare Turf.

You know something, as silly as it may seem on the surface that is pretty much the conclusion I have come to after hearing the back and forth. Either the Filly & Mare Turf or some other turf race, heck if they wanted a truly neutral location they could run somewhere like Woodbine with a phenomenal sweeping turf course (Woodbine has money and I am sure could fork over some of it for such an event).

[cj]

What would make anybody think Rachel is a turf horse? Is this what the sport has come to because of synthetics? For over a hundred years dirt racing has been the pinnacle of racing in this country. Horses are bred here to be successful on dirt. Those that don't cut it are then tried on turf.

Now, because a few horses broke down on national television, there was a rush to install supposed safer synthetic surfaces and truly great dirt horses are supposed to run on fake turf and turf to appease the masses? It makes no sense to me.

[CBedo]

What would make anybody think Rachel is a turf horse? Is this what the sport has come to because of synthetics? For over a hundred years dirt racing has been the pinnacle of racing in this country. Horses are bred here to be successful on dirt. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp: Amen

[DeanT]

Is this what the sport has come to because of synthetics?

The sport has come to this because people who lack sportsmanship and use horses as political pawns own racehorses.

Can someone tell me again why the debate is even here? Rachel won on poly already, so she is fine.

Jess Jackson went fishing, and caught a whole lot of fish.

The next time he wants to do that, he should make sure the horse he is using to forward his agenda, actually hates polytrack; then logical thinking people might actually agree that he has a point.

[cj]

The sport has come to this because people who lack sportsmanship and use horses as political pawns own racehorses.

Can someone tell me again why the debate is even here? Rachel won on poly already, so she is fine.

Jess Jackson went fishing, and caught a whole lot of fish.

The next time he wants to do that, he should make sure the horse he is using to forward his agenda, actually hates polytrack; then logical thinking people might actually agree that he has a point.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with not running in that race. The BC has become too big and is hurting the sport in my opinion. All the other races suffer because of it. Somebody has to make a stand.

I didn't think he should run Curlin in the BC last year either. I don't buy that it wasn't the surface that did him in, and I definitely don't buy that he was a declining horse. My figures for him don't back up that argument. He was beaten on turf by has been Red Rocks and barely held off ancient Better Talk Now. So, to me, it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to be at his best on Proride or whichever rubber they had installed that week.

Why is Jackson made out to be the bad guy by some when the also very rich connections of Zenyatta refuse to leave Southern California and beat up on a bunch of claimers posing as stakes horses? Rachel is a dirt horse, run her on dirt.

By the way, have you checked out Asmussen's comically bad record of sending horses out on synthetic tracks? The day Rachel won at Keeneland was one of the more speed favoring days of the meet. Santa Anita is rarely so kind. Oh, and like everybody keeps telling us, the surfaces are all different, so winning at Keeneland means little at Santa Anita, right?

[DeanT]

That's good CJ and I do not disagree with much of it. My problem is with the messenger on this.

We have tremendous problems in racing, no doubt. Poly is one which is nebulous and inflames passions. However, what is the means to an end with Jess Jackson? What does he want?

Some might say he wants "these tracks ripped up". Ok, fine. Tracks should spend $150M ripping them up. That is $150M we do not have to fix our tote system. Sorry Mister Jackson, ripping up racecourses which takes money away from fixing a problem that has stunted our growth as a sport for 20 years is not something I am going to follow you into the sun on.

Second, rip em up. Great. Do that before we even have data? Not bloody likely. Just like I won't bet a trainer who goes 1 for 1 off the claim after going 0 for 60, I will not even look at some of the anecdotal nonsense we read from poly lovers and poly haters alike. Currently there is a good group of people who got funded by racing just this past April (something that racing did right!) who are studying poly, horse safety and so on. I will wait, (and it will take years as any proper scientific study does) for what they have to say before doing things that Jackson wants or anyone wants, imo. http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/horse_racing/articles/2009/04/29/for_horses_safety_he_thinks_outside_the_hocks/

I'm sorry CJ, Jackson demagouged this issue, and we have enough of that claptrap in this sport. He is the Pied Piper of Napa and he expects horseplayers and everyone else to follow him where ever he takes us by using his wonderful filly as a means to his end. It's a free world and others can and will follow him, but this horseplayer ain't.

[cj]

I understand the financial part of course. To me, it is as simple as the guy doesn't want to run his horse on the stuff, and that is good enough by me. I don't think it is going to hurt the sport any more than he has helped it by purchasing Rachel and mapping out a very ambitious campaign.

[DeanT]

I understand the financial part of course. To me, it is as simple as the guy doesn't want to run his horse on the stuff, and that is good enough by me. I don't think it is going to hurt the sport any more than he has helped it by purchasing Rachel and mapping out a very ambitious campaign.

You might be 100% correct. But I don't know. All I know is Mr. Jackson ran a poll on where to run Curlin last year and one of the choices was "polytrack". Maybe it is the cynic in me and maybe I am way off base, but I think if Curlin rocked on poly last year and Mr Jackson could promote him as a "poly sire for the ages" I dont think he would be doing what he is doing right now with Rachel. I would bet dollars to donuts he would be racing her there and when she airs he would be speaking of her and Curlin's poly prowess and that their offspring will be an all weather Secretariat.

I could be wrong, and probably am. But I just have a sneaky feeling that Mr. Jackson does what's best for Mr. Jackson.

[andymays]

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/zenyatta-about-to-step-out-of.html

Excerpt:

Zenyatta's connections have taken a lot of heat both from the media and bloggers for keeping their unbeaten 5-year-old mare home in California for the most part and continuing to run her within her own division when she's already proved she's head and shoulders above the other fillies and mares in California.

Whereas Rachel Alexandra's camp has taken two huge leaps outside the lines by tackling boys in both the Preakness Stakes and Haskell Invitational, Zenyatta has not raced against males once in 11 lifetime races and has raced outside of California only one time in arguably her most powerful score -- last year's Apple Blossom Handicap at Oaklawn Park when she easily beat reigning older female champion Ginger Punch on dirt.

Excerpt:

"At this stage of the game, everything is a possibility," Moss said. "But it really depends on how John (trainer John Shirreffs) is also feeling about that track down there. It's very troublesome because it's not the same track every year. So we're just hoping everything works out OK."

If Zenyatta runs well and appears to like Del Mar's Polytrack surface, I think there's a better than 50-50 chance she'll run in the Pacific Classic. If not, perhaps the Woodward at Belmont on Sept. 5, a destination that could bring her face to face with Rachel Alexandra.

[cj]

You might be 100% correct. But I don't know. All I know is Mr. Jackson ran a poll on where to run Curlin last year and one of the choices was "polytrack". Maybe it is the cynic in me and maybe I am way off base, but I think if Curlin rocked on poly last year and Mr Jackson could promote him as a "poly sire for the ages" I dont think he would be doing what he is doing right now with Rachel. I would bet dollars to donuts he would be racing her there and when she airs he would be speaking of her and Curlin's poly prowess and that their offspring will be an all weather Secretariat.

I could be wrong, and probably am. But I just have a sneaky feeling that Mr. Jackson does what's best for Mr. Jackson.

You could be right, but I don't think the guy is too worried about money at this point in his life.

[rokitman]

If I were in JJ's shoes, I would want no part of any chance of getting her beat by a surface.

[DeanT]

No I dont think it is cash with him, more his place in racing, and self promoting the horses he owns.

[CBedo]

If I were in JJ's shoes, I would want no part of any chance of getting her beat by a surface.I support his decision to not run on the synth, but in some weird way, if he did, and Zenyatta beat her, he could blame in on the surface (like he did with Curlin).

[FenceBored]

What would make anybody think Rachel is a turf horse? Is this what the sport has come to because of synthetics? For over a hundred years dirt racing has been the pinnacle of racing in this country. Horses are bred here to be successful on dirt. Those that don't cut it are then tried on turf.

Now, because a few horses broke down on national television, there was a rush to install supposed safer synthetic surfaces and truly great dirt horses are supposed to run on fake turf and turf to appease the masses? It makes no sense to me.

CJ, I was joking about the F&M Turf, playing off DeanT's "they should .. meet in the BC, no matter what the surface is" remark. In other words, if the suface of their meeting doesn't matter, then 'hey let's have them run on a surface neither of them has run on before, or shown any aptitude for.' I guess I shoulda used the ":rolleyes:" to make it clear.

[cj]

CJ, I was joking about the F&M Turf, playing off DeanT's "they should .. meet in the BC, no matter what the surface is" remark. In other words, if the suface of their meeting doesn't matter, then 'hey let's have them run on a surface neither of them has run on before, or shown any aptitude for.' I guess I shoulda used the ":rolleyes:" to make it clear.

I've been a little slow this week after getting my head whacked when a car ran into the back of me. I need emoticons!

[CincyHorseplayer]

If there is any truth to the quote AndyMays put up about Zenyatta in the Woodward,that would be a good thing.

[fmolf]

each owner puts up half a million dollars ...each track puts up half a million dollars for a three race series,rachel vs zen......one race at a california track of mosses choice..one race at a dirt track of Jacksons choice and a turf race at a track pulled out of a hat from four tracks...two submitted by moss two by jackson...It will never happen but this scenario would be fair and point us to the best all around horse.

[PaceAdvantage]

If not, perhaps the Woodward at Belmont on Sept. 5, a destination that could bring her face to face with Rachel Alexandra.Woodward is run at Saratoga now...

[andymays]

Woodward is run at Saratoga now...


It was from an excerpt from an article I pasted so I indirectly I guess it might be sorta maybe? :D