Big Drama is favorite in WV Derby [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

08-01-2009, 10:32 PM

If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. Mine that Bird is a sucker horse.
I would not bet that horse with monopoly money. If the Churchill track wasn't sloppy, there would have been no way he won the derby. Couldn't beat a female in the preakness, and had a horrible showing in the belmont.
They ran him into a sub par derby because the owners knew he would get crushed in the Travers. Lets see if the owners have the guts to put him in the Breaders cup.

Wow, those are some pretty poor assessments there. He would have won the Derby had it been run on moon dust. His Preakness was pretty darn good. Yes, he had an ideal set up, but the female you mention is very, very, very good and also would have drowned the Derby field. His Belmont may not have been great, but horrible?

Relwob Owner

08-01-2009, 10:38 PM

MTB was compromised by a short field and his running style............

same as all late runners like him.........it was a textbook setup for somebody to take them both down...........

Why did his running style compromise his chances? They went really fast early and set up fine for him coming late....he had nothing left at the end and really no excuse in my opinion.

Whodoyalike?

08-01-2009, 10:38 PM

Wow, those are some pretty poor assessments there. He would have won the Derby had it been run on moon dust. His Preakness was pretty darn good. Yes, he had an ideal set up, but the female you mention is very, very, very good and also would have drowned the Derby field. His Belmont may not have been great, but horrible?

Poor assessments? I call it like I see it pal! That horse could not win a grade 2 derby? You know damn well the owners wanted to put him in a fluff race like the WVA derby and not wait until later this month and run him in the Travers. The reason is that the public would finally see that Mine that bird is a fraud with a poor showing at the Travers. Lets see what they do come time for the Breaders Cup. I bet he will be out with "a foot problem" or some other excuse. MTB is lame.

08-01-2009, 10:43 PM

Why would he run on synthetics in the Classic?

Relwob Owner

08-01-2009, 10:48 PM

Poor assessments? I call it like I see it pal! That horse could not win a grade 2 derby? You know damn well the owners wanted to put him in a fluff race like the WVA derby and not wait until later this month and run him in the Travers. The reason is that the public would finally see that Mine that bird is a fraud with a poor showing at the Travers. Lets see what they do come time for the Breaders Cup. I bet he will be out with "a foot problem" or some other excuse. MTB is lame.

Your analysis is way over the top and seems way off base.....I think that MTB is showing the effects of being in every leg of the Triple Crown, which is totally understandable. Calling a horse who finished first, second and third in the Triple Crown series "lame" is an extremely "lame" assessment in my opinion.

Also, predicting that a horse whose connections ran him all the way through the Triple Crown would come up with an excuse for not running in future races makes no sense

cj's dad

08-01-2009, 10:50 PM

Poor assessments? I call it like I see it pal! That horse could not win a grade 2 derby? You know damn well the owners wanted to put him in a fluff race like the WVA derby and not wait until later this month and run him in the Travers. The reason is that the public would finally see that Mine that bird is a fraud with a poor showing at the Travers. Lets see what they do come time for the Breaders Cup. I bet he will be out with "a foot problem" or some other excuse. MTB is lame.

Wish you had been here prior to the Kentucky derby. I might have bet on MTB just to prove you wrong.

He will not run in the "Breaders":lol: Cup because he is waiting for a nice little starters h'cap that he can fit into, so as to avoid all those toughies he beat in the Derby. Got it !!

Imriledup

08-01-2009, 11:04 PM

Bad job by the owners, they needed to replace Coa and get a jock who could make 111. If they did, they win. The 4 lbs cost them the win (not to mention the poor ride)

Robert Goren

08-01-2009, 11:10 PM

It is August. In the history of horse racing a lot of strange things have happened in August.;)

slewis

08-02-2009, 12:51 AM

Bad job by the owners, they needed to replace Coa and get a jock who could make 111. If they did, they win. The 4 lbs cost them the win (not to mention the poor ride)

Ill agree with the 4lbs statement... but what did Coa do wrong?

Valuist

08-02-2009, 12:57 AM

I can't find much wrong with Mine That Bird's three Triple Crown races, but his WV Derby race was dreadful. Big Drama ran off and set a solid pace and MTB couldn't win despite the final 1/8th in a painfully slow 14 seconds? This is a definite damnation of the crop. Wouldn't be surprised if Kensei was the top male 3YO by year end......even by month's end.

RockHardTen1985

08-02-2009, 01:01 AM

Ill agree with the 4lbs statement... but what did Coa do wrong?

lol...
He did not make weight.

Bettowin

08-02-2009, 01:02 AM

MTB needs Calvin.

slewis

08-02-2009, 01:08 AM

Poor assessments? I call it like I see it pal! That horse could not win a grade 2 derby? You know damn well the owners wanted to put him in a fluff race like the WVA derby and not wait until later this month and run him in the Travers. The reason is that the public would finally see that Mine that bird is a fraud with a poor showing at the Travers. Lets see what they do come time for the Breaders Cup. I bet he will be out with "a foot problem" or some other excuse. MTB is lame.

Well what great horse is he ducking in the Travers?
Do you even know who is running in the Travers?

Why do you think the WVAD is a fluff race? They announced well in advance what their intentions were and didnt "duck" anyone.
Any and all the top 3 yr olds are free to run.

The race is 750k and when they announced they were going to WVA, they had no idea who was running in the Haskell or any other of the top races for 3 yr olds.

So although you are free to "call em like you see em", Im free to say, in this case, your "seein' em" like Stevie Wonder.

RockHardTen1985

08-02-2009, 01:16 AM

MTB needs Calvin.

Calvin knew early on that Warriors Reward was more talented.
He was taken out of his game today being sent to the lead. When he finally gets a fair setup LOOK OUT.

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 01:57 AM

[QUOTE=slewis]Well what great horse is he ducking in the Travers?
Do you even know who is running in the Travers?

Why do you think the WVAD is a fluff race? They announced well in advance what their intentions were and didnt "duck" anyone.
Any and all the top 3 yr olds are free to run.

The race is 750k and when they announced they were going to WVA, they had no idea who was running in the Haskell or any other of the top races for 3 yr olds.

So although you are free to "call em like you see em", Im free to say, in this case, your "seein' em" like Stevie Wonder.[/QUOTE

I don't understand why everyone is so sensitive over MTB. I am entitled to my opinion and I feel it's a sucker horse. BTW, the triple crown was two months ago and horses are ment to run, so your excuse of being tired from a triple crown campaign is lame. Also, the travers is a grade 1 while the WVA derby is a grade 2 stakes. So yes, it was a fluff race. All the race proved today was that MTB win in the derby was a fluke. Debating horses with you all is like playing cards with my brothers kids. Now, go back to your drawing board and try to come up with more excuses for that sucker horse. Or better yet, keep betting MTB and I will be laughing all the way to the bank.

proximity

08-02-2009, 02:58 AM

Ill agree with the 4lbs statement... but what did Coa do wrong?

was it necessary to open up a 10 length lead after 1/2?

CBedo

08-02-2009, 03:19 AM

was it necessary to open up a 10 length lead after 1/2?I was wondering the same thing. I was also wondering if BD opening up such a big lead panicked Mike Smith into moving MTB a little earlier than he wanted. A one run closer seems to almost never be a good bet, but it sure seems to be the way MTB likes to run.

Isn't it fun to ponder the "could'a beens" of different pace scenarios?

depalma113

08-02-2009, 06:48 AM

If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. Mine that Bird is a sucker horse.
I would not bet that horse with monopoly money. If the Churchill track wasn't sloppy, there would have been no way he won the derby. Couldn't beat a female in the preakness, and had a horrible showing in the belmont.
They ran him into a sub par derby because the owners knew he would get crushed in the Travers. Lets see if the owners have the guts to put him in the Breaders cup.

He is still going to the Travers so their is still plenty of time for him to get crushed in that race.

He gave 11 pounds to the two horses that finished ahead of him yesterday. So that obviously didn't help him.

I don't think he is that great of a horse, but he certainly not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be either.

Java Gold@TFT

08-02-2009, 06:59 AM

Let's all feel sorry for Chip Woolley:

Woolley fumed over the weight spread. Big Drama, who has earned $1 million, would have carried 111 pounds except for Coa doing four pounds overweight.
"The 11-pound weight disparage in the Derby is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of," he said. "… That was like for an allowance stakes, not a Derby. They need to change it. Nobody should spot 11 pounds to a horse who has made a million dollars in the past year. The horse that won it gets 11, and Big Drama gets 11."

http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/trackside/blog.html

Poor guy got suckered into running in a race without reading the condition book. Now there's a classic excuse after a race. I didn't like the weights because I didn't know that a Derby could be run under allowance conditions. Duh? It's pretty clear. Maybe the appearence incentive caused temporary reading dificulties.

8 Race Rating
119
Win Place Show No.
STAKES West Virginia Derby (Grade II)
Purse $750,000. FOR THREE YEAR OLDS. Money to be divided: $450,000 to Winner; $150,000 to Second; $75,000 to Third; $37,500 to Fourth; $18,750 to Fifth; $11,250 to
Sixth and $3,750 for Seventh and Eighth. WEIGHT 122 lbs. Winners of Two Grade I races at One Mile or Over in 2009... 3 lbs. additional; Non-winners of a Grade I race at One
Mile or Over in 2009... allowed 3 lbs.; Non-winners of a Grade II race at One Mile or Over in 2009... 5 lbs.; Non-winners of a Grade III race at One Mile or Over in 2009... 7 lbs.;
Non-winners of $150,000 at One Mile or Over in 2009... 9 lbs.; Non-winners of a Sweepstakes at One Mile or Over in 2009... 11 lbs. TROPHY TO THE WINNING OWNER,
TRAINER AND JOCKEY. CLOSED MONDAY, JULY 20, 2009 WITH 37 NOMINATIONS. One Mile And One Eighth

Just admit that your horse couldn't close into a final furlong of 14 seconds. I believed after the Derby that he wouldn't win another G-I unless one of two things happened - he went back to Canada for a G-IC or he kept racing for a few more years and found one of the often pathetic groups of older "handicap" horses to race against. I could see him maybe winning something like th Suburban at age 5 if that years crop is as bad as most have been lately but that will take time. I hope they do show for the Travers. He will be an easy bet against but depending on today's race he may be as high as 6-1 on the board.

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 08:39 AM

He is still going to the Travers so their is still plenty of time for him to get crushed in that race.

He gave 11 pounds to the two horses that finished ahead of him yesterday. So that obviously didn't help him.

I don't think he is that great of a horse, but he certainly not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be either.

At least you're forming your opinion with fact and not emotions (like others in here). I predict if he does go to the Travers at the end of the month, he will not even hit the board. Yes, you heard it hear first and I will dig out this thread after the travers to show face to all you that drank the "Mine That Bird Cool-aid".

The owners should have put him out to stud immediately after the Kentucky Derby. Parading him to different tracks like a carnival side show is hurting his stud fees.

depalma113

08-02-2009, 09:10 AM

At least you're forming your opinion with fact and not emotions (like others in here). I predict if he does go to the Travers at the end of the month, he will not even hit the board. Yes, you heard it hear first and I will dig out this thread after the travers to show face to all you that drank the "Mine That Bird Cool-aid".

The owners should have put him out to stud immediately after the Kentucky Derby. Parading him to different tracks like a carnival side show is hurting his stud fees.

He's a gelding, so there is no stud fee. All he can do is race or a pull a wagon. Third in a $750,000 race is still more money than a lifetime of wagon duty.

slewis

08-02-2009, 09:15 AM

slewis

08-02-2009, 09:25 AM

He's a gelding, so there is no stud fee. All he can do is race or a pull a wagon. Third in a $750,000 race is still more money than a lifetime of wagon duty.

Stevie W. cant see the "b.g.3" in the DRF.

The braille version is scaled down, so dont hammer the guy.

Besides, he's always running to the bank.:lol: :lol:

cj's dad

08-02-2009, 09:26 AM

The owners should have put him out to stud immediately after the Kentucky Derby.

Man, you really know your s--t.:lol::lol:

the little guy

08-02-2009, 09:26 AM

The owners should have put him out to stud immediately after the Kentucky Derby. Parading him to different tracks like a carnival side show is hurting his stud fees.

This paragraph doesn't exactly strengthen your credibility.

Java Gold@TFT

08-02-2009, 09:35 AM

He's giving away weight. Considerable weight.
For 3 races this spring he carried 126 lbs and everyone seemed to think that was fine. That's scale. Yesterday he ran4 lbs under scale and as fast as the track was playing for final times, he still didn't run a lick. Weight differential had nothing to do with it. If he couldn't run 13.3 for the last furlong under 122 then he's just not going to do it whetehr the horse in front of him carried 115 or not. Funny Cide revisited - he had is day in the sun and maybe he'll catch a break if he runs for a few more years but don't expect Championship status any time soon. At least as a gelding he won't be Giacomo or Lil E Tee revisited.

Face it - a horse eligible for nwx2 should get weight from a Derby winner and also another horse who never won a race over 7F. Woolley screwed up and got his money and now he should just stop whining and ship to Saratoga for his next beating.

slewis

08-02-2009, 10:07 AM

For 3 races this spring he carried 126 lbs and everyone seemed to think that was fine. That's scale. Yesterday he ran4 lbs under scale and as fast as the track was playing for final times, he still didn't run a lick. Weight differential had nothing to do with it. If he couldn't run 13.3 for the last furlong under 122 then he's just not going to do it whetehr the horse in front of him carried 115 or not. Funny Cide revisited - he had is day in the sun and maybe he'll catch a break if he runs for a few more years but don't expect Championship status any time soon. At least as a gelding he won't be Giacomo or Lil E Tee revisited.

Face it - a horse eligible for nwx2 should get weight from a Derby winner and also another horse who never won a race over 7F. Woolley screwed up and got his money and now he should just stop whining and ship to Saratoga for his next beating.

First of all, the weight differential has EVERYTHING to do with it.
My suggestion to you is to retract that statement because every trainer and professional hadicapper on the planet will side against you.

Secondly, I, unlike other postees on this thread, can read the condition book.
Wooley can too, he knew the deal. This scenario takes place less and less often (Im talking about huge differences in weights) today because in order to draw a big name horse to your track, you have to intice them.
In reality, the scale worked peoperly here with 3 horses hitting the finish line in close proximity, which is what weight handicapping is about.
Tracks are getting away from it because of the reasons I mentioned above.. They want to see the top names perform at their tracks, which bring in fans and handle, and weighing them down wont get them to show.

Next, regarding the "final fractions"... different tracks will yield different splits because of the dynamics of the track and I haven't checked the variants for the day yet.

If you think MTB is nothing more than an allowance horse, you are entitled to your opinion.

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 10:39 AM

This paragraph doesn't exactly strengthen your credibility.

sorrry that I don't know the complete medical history on a washed up sucker horse. If that horse wins another race this year (even at Charlestown) then I will eat my hat.

Java Gold@TFT

08-02-2009, 11:27 AM

First of all, the weight differential has EVERYTHING to do with it.
My suggestion to you is to retract that statement because every trainer and professional hadicapper on the planet will side against you.

Secondly, I, unlike other postees on this thread, can read the condition book.
Wooley can too, he knew the deal. This scenario takes place less and less often (Im talking about huge differences in weights) today because in order to draw a big name horse to your track, you have to intice them.
In reality, the scale worked peoperly here with 3 horses hitting the finish line in close proximity, which is what weight handicapping is about.
Tracks are getting away from it because of the reasons I mentioned above.. They want to see the top names perform at their tracks, which bring in fans and handle, and weighing them down wont get them to show.

Next, regarding the "final fractions"... different tracks will yield different splits because of the dynamics of the track and I haven't checked the variants for the day yet.

If you think MTB is nothing more than an allowance horse, you are entitled to your opinion.

How in the world did they "weigh him down"? The weights were there for the taking. Did he think that the WV Derby was going to draw other G-I winners around 2 turns? That's absurd. He had to know what he was getting into but thought it would be a soft spot to make money. He misjudged his horse and the conditions and now is complaining about it.

As far as weights go, I would definitely argue that the vast majority of handicappers find it important unless you are talking about a real stakes handicap race. Do you look at every condition and weight assignement when handicapping a claiming race with weight allowances based on last wins. etc.? If so then good for you. I will stand by my original statement that in an allowance stake, which is what this was, then a nwx1 winner should get decent weight from a 10F G-I winner. MTB just wasn't up to the task and there is no reason for Wooley to make excuses about weights after the race was run. He didn't use that excuse before the race so why do it after. He laso said that BD got 11 so he mustn't have been paying attention to overweights either.

bcgreg

08-02-2009, 11:35 AM

sorrry that I don't know the complete medical history on a washed up sucker horse. If that horse wins another race this year (even at Charlestown) then I will eat my hat.

Well, from your posts, it sure sounds like you need more roughage in your diet. :lol:

bcgreg

WinterTriangle

08-02-2009, 11:46 AM

Calling a horse who finished first, second and third in the Triple Crown series "lame" is an extremely "lame" assessment in my opinion.

Also, predicting that a horse whose connections ran him all the way through the Triple Crown would come up with an excuse for not running in future races makes no sense

Bingo.

The horse is very game, the trainer is game.

See no reason to run MTB on synthetics. He's a dirt horse, for sure.

Every handicapper knew that MTB's running style, in that field, on that track, put him at a disadvantage. Big deal. He lost a race.

Considering the 25+ horses that were on the Triple Crown trail, who are now either retired, injured, or on long layoffs, I'd say MTB was a stout little *racehorse*. He ran in them all, and is still running.

Maybe Whodoyalike can tell us of another horse who ran all 3 races, and is still running (stakes) races? Count me in as a racing fan who appreciates horses who are racehorses, i.,e, not hot-house flowers.

DrugS

08-02-2009, 12:50 PM

The Jim Dandy winner got a 106 Beyer.

I would guess the West Virgina Derby winner got a 93 or 94.

JustRalph

08-02-2009, 03:23 PM

Why did his running style compromise his chances? They went really fast early and set up fine for him coming late....he had nothing left at the end and really no excuse in my opinion.

no, one horse went fast early......and another ran closer to the pace than MTB........and closed into it.....and won. take the difference in how close they were to the pace (the winner was well ahead of MTB) and then add in the fact that the winner got a perfect huge ground saving trip, ........means to me .....typical closer that wasn't close enough, very typical if you ask me.

Those S types only win about 11% overall..........Had there been more horses to push the front or maybe the mid pack closer (Soul warrior) .......MTB has a much better chance. No different than any other big closer not getting enough of a setup due to a short field and only one pace horse .........who faded badly like they are apt to do......

08-02-2009, 03:30 PM

Of course the come home times and the Beyer will be weak, those fractions were pretty insane. Mine That Bird moved way too early in my opinion, but didn't run very well in any case.

Java Gold@TFT

08-02-2009, 04:39 PM

Of course the come home times and the Beyer will be weak, those fractions were pretty insane. Mine That Bird moved way too early in my opinion, but didn't run very well in any case.
Cj, I won't pretend to question you on your speed figures or speed analysis but how can you say those fractions were "insane"? Tell me what I'm missing:

23.3 46.2 1:10.2 1:37 1:51.2

Given lenghts back that would put MTB around:

25.3 49.2 1:12.1 1:37.2 1:51.4

Internals would be:

25.3 23.4 23.4 25.1 14.2

IMO, any type of quality graded stakes winner, regardless of running style should not be so worn out after going 1:12.1 that it takes close to 40 seconds to get the last 3F.

Please tell me what I missed in this race. Compare it to the race before the WV Derby where a loose on the lead winner went 1:11.3 and still finished in 1:44 under wraps/well in hand. I honestly just don't see insane fractions especially given that the early card sprints were all going out in 22/45 so the track was OK.

cj's dad

08-02-2009, 04:40 PM

sorrry that I don't know the complete medical history on a washed up sucker horse. If that horse wins another race this year (even at Charlestown) then I will eat my hat.

You are just making friends by the droves and impressing others here with both your modesty and knowledge. Thanks so much for your unbiased opinions.:lol:

slewis

08-02-2009, 06:41 PM

How in the world did they "weigh him down"? The weights were there for the taking. Did he think that the WV Derby was going to draw other G-I winners around 2 turns? That's absurd. He had to know what he was getting into but thought it would be a soft spot to make money. He misjudged his horse and the conditions and now is complaining about it.

As far as weights go, I would definitely argue that the vast majority of handicappers find it important unless you are talking about a real stakes handicap race. Do you look at every condition and weight assignement when handicapping a claiming race with weight allowances based on last wins. etc.? If so then good for you. I will stand by my original statement that in an allowance stake, which is what this was, then a nwx1 winner should get decent weight from a 10F G-I winner. MTB just wasn't up to the task and there is no reason for Wooley to make excuses about weights after the race was run. He didn't use that excuse before the race so why do it after. He laso said that BD got 11 so he mustn't have been paying attention to overweights either.

You must have a difficult time understanding what I write so I'll go slower.
My statement regarding weight assignment was about a HANDICAP race... and how race tracks (racing secretary's) are getting away from "weighing down" top class horses. Why? Because in todays race world, the top horses have CHOICES...to race in status races for big money. It used to be if you wanted to run for six figure prize money, you raced in NY and accepted the weight assignment or, you ran for half that (or less). But today, many small tracks can "have their day" (like Mountaineer) by offering a lot of money to intice a big star. THIS WAS NOT A HANDICAP RACE... In this case they set the conditions and everyone who nominates knows what they are (BTW over 30 horses nominated to the WVAD). The racing sec wants as many horses to enter as possible. 11.lbs is still a lot of weight to give away..regardless of what YOU think (and I know Coa was 4 over, but Big Drama is no NW1 or NW2 horse. He's stakes quality.
As far as the fractions go... forget them... Im pretty sure Big Drama ran off and if he could run with Rachel A for a strong mile in the Preakness, Im sure the effort in WVA was solid regardless of the times posted (which I havent gotten to yet)
So rather than me defending MTB's racing career, why dont you tell everyone who you think are the 3 best horses in the country... right now, on the dirt.
Dont dare say Rachel A because in the Preakness, another 50 yards and he's goin' right by her. So which is it... are they both overrated???
Enlighten us please.

08-02-2009, 07:05 PM

...Couldn't beat a female in the preakness...

Keep me posted on when somebody does beat that "female".

Grits

08-02-2009, 07:09 PM

You must have a difficult time understanding what I write so I'll go slower.
My statement regarding weight assignment was about a HANDICAP race... and how race tracks (racing secretary's) are getting away from "weighing down" top class horses. Why? Because in todays race world, the top horses have CHOICES...to race in status races for big money. It used to be if you wanted to run for six figure prize money, you raced in NY and accepted the weight assignment or, you ran for half that (or less). But today, many small tracks can "have their day" (like Mountaineer) by offering a lot of money to intice a big star. THIS WAS NOT A HANDICAP RACE... In this case they set the conditions and everyone who nominates knows what they are (BTW over 30 horses nominated to the WVAD). The racing sec wants as many horses to enter as possible. 11.lbs is still a lot of weight to give away..regardless of what YOU think (and I know Coa was 4 over, but Big Drama is no NW1 or NW2 horse. He's stakes quality.
As far as the fractions go... forget them... Im pretty sure Big Drama ran off and if he could run with Rachel A for a strong mile in the Preakness, Im sure the effort in WVA was solid regardless of the times posted (which I havent gotten to yet)
So rather than me defending MTB's racing career, why dont you tell everyone who you think are the 3 best horses in the country... right now, on the dirt.
Dont dare say Rachel A because in the Preakness, another 50 yards and he's goin' right by her. So which is it... are they both overrated???
Enlighten us please.

Slewis, stop going to all this trouble. You're in Saratoga, you should be deciding where you're gonna have dinner. You're wasting your time and energy here. You're talking to a person who, after the horse's running ALL three Triple Crown Races this Spring:

A.) Didn't know he was a gelding.

And worse . . . .

B.) Goes on to classify his being a gelding as part of his "complete medical history.":lol:

cj's dad

08-02-2009, 07:09 PM

20+ posts and already attaining the classification of "must read posts":lol:

1st - Gelding to the breeding shed :lol::D
2nd- "female"
what's next ?? - stay tuned :eek:

08-02-2009, 07:10 PM

Cj, I won't pretend to question you on your speed figures or speed analysis but how can you say those fractions were "insane"? Tell me what I'm missing:

23.3 46.2 1:10.2 1:37 1:51.2

Given lenghts back that would put MTB around:

25.3 49.2 1:12.1 1:37.2 1:51.4

Internals would be:

25.3 23.4 23.4 25.1 14.2

IMO, any type of quality graded stakes winner, regardless of running style should not be so worn out after going 1:12.1 that it takes close to 40 seconds to get the last 3F.

Please tell me what I missed in this race. Compare it to the race before the WV Derby where a loose on the lead winner went 1:11.3 and still finished in 1:44 under wraps/well in hand. I honestly just don't see insane fractions especially given that the early card sprints were all going out in 22/45 so the track was OK.

I was talking about the fractions of the leader. You are using 1/5 per length, so there is a big error there, more pronounced there.

Still, that isn't the point. The leader set a very fast pace. When a horse runs off like that, it pretty much makes all the other horses react, particularly when the horse is the race favorite. The others get out of their comfort zone and don't run as well as they can.

bisket

08-02-2009, 07:17 PM

Relwob Owner

08-02-2009, 07:28 PM

Grits

08-02-2009, 07:36 PM

its really upsetting that the person who's actually supposed to be monitoring this board would ridicule other posters. it is the motiss operendia (probably butchered the spelling of that) of this board to attack every new poster privately and publically who comes along.

Bisket, going through each page of the thread, the moderator's posts are #s, 6,9,39,43,46.

And you term his comments as ridiculing? How?

The new poster walked in, ripped the door off its hinges, RIDICULING a racehorse that's given everything he's got, so far, this Spring and Summer.

Not to mention, his posts contained some resounding errors . . . . all of which should get a pass because the poster is new?

Java Gold@TFT

08-02-2009, 07:46 PM

If any ridicule was directed at me then I missed it. I have a slgithly different opinion of the WV Derby and MTB's performance than others on this board. So what? I simply questioned CJ's opinion that 46.2 and 1:10.2 were insane for a sprinter trying to wire a 9F G-II. To me that isn't terribly fast given the other fractions posted earlier in the card by lesser horses. So what if he tells me what his opinion is and I have lurked here long enough before posting to understand the quality of the work he does.

As far as the other question about the best 3yo's right now. There is no doubt about Rachel. I think we will learn a lot more about Quality Road in the next month ,starting tomorrow. I also think that Summer Bird made a much better impression today than MTB yesterday and he was also forced to race out of his element. Kensei is still developing nicely and I don't think Warrior's Reward ran too awfully bad yesterday. I would take any one of that group over Mine That Bird on a dirt track at 9-10F. To those that want to defend MTB then fine, that's racing. I'll be next to you at the windows on August 29th if he decides to show up.

Relwob Owner

08-02-2009, 08:00 PM

Bisket, going through each page of the thread, the moderator's posts are #s, 6,9,39,43,46.

And you term his comments as ridiculing? How?

The new poster walked in, ripped the door off its hinges, RIDICULING a racehorse that's given everything he's got, so far, this Spring and Summer.

Not to mention, his posts contained some resounding errors . . . . all of which should get a pass because the poster is new?

well put......seems like he was pretty easy on him and wasnt ridiculing him at all

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 08:42 PM

well put......seems like he was pretty easy on him and wasnt ridiculing him at all

Look everyone, I don't feel I have been ridiculed at all. You all have strong opinions of MTB and that's fine. I respectfully disagree With their opinions. I have thick skin so I don't take offense to anything. I just wanted to state that dispute the fact that I am a new poster, I have been playing the ponies for nearly 30 years. I always root for the underdog but I just felt MTB wasn't the best 3 yr old. Perhaps we could all agree that his derby win demonstrated a weak 3 yr old class (excluding RA).

Relwob Owner

08-02-2009, 08:46 PM

Look everyone, I don't feel I have been ridiculed at all. You all have strong opinions of MTB and that's fine. I respectfully disagree With their opinions. I have thick skin so I don't take offense to anything. I just wanted to state that dispute the fact that I am a new poster, I have been playing the ponies for nearly 30 years. I always root for the underdog but I just felt MTB wasn't the best 3 yr old. Perhaps we could all agree that his derby win demonstrated a weak 3 yr old class (excluding RA).

You say you "respectfully" disagree but said this in a post.....Debating horses with you all is like playing cards with my brothers kids. Now, go back to your drawing board and try to come up with more excuses for that sucker horse.

I dont think that defines respect and I dont think that your posts are really respectful in general from what I have seen....your knowledge leaves a bit to be desired as well, as most everyone who follows racing knows Mine That bird is a gelding.....

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 09:34 PM

You say you "respectfully" disagree but said this in a post.....Debating horses with you all is like playing cards with my brothers kids. Now, go back to your drawing board and try to come up with more excuses for that sucker horse.

I dont think that defines respect and I dont think that your posts are really respectful in general from what I have seen....your knowledge leaves a bit to be desired as well, as most everyone who follows racing knows Mine That bird is a gelding.....

I have to admit, that was one of the funnier posts if I do say so.

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 09:36 PM

To CJ :

Are you the one with the speed figures? If so, how does your numbers compare to Colts Neck data?

08-02-2009, 09:46 PM

To CJ :

Are you the one with the speed figures? If so, how does your numbers compare to Colts Neck data?

I make pace and speed figures, but I have no idea how they compare to those. I've never seen them.

Whodoyalike?

08-02-2009, 10:12 PM

I make pace and speed figures, but I have no idea how they compare to those. I've never seen them.

Colts Neck is pace and speed figures as well. I have been using Colts Neck data for about 16 years, and have positive results over the long run. I know your numbers are very well respected, so I was just wondering if they were simular.

Thomas Roulston

08-03-2009, 01:53 AM

Speaking of all things Mountaineer Park:

I noticed something interesting when watching the West Virginia Senate President's Stakes, one of the two grass races on the card: It didn't even take them 3 seconds to go from the finish line to the first pole past the wire, which would be the 13/16ths pole. Therefore, the Mountaineer turf course can't possibly be 7 furlongs - explaining how they "get away with" running 7-furlong grass races at Mnr; also, the starting gate for the 1m70y turf start could not possibly need to be pushed back all the way into the corner (as 1 1/8m turf races at Churchill Downs are) if it was a full 7-furlong turf course (also note the unusually wide "no-man's land" between the main-track rail and the outside fence of the Mnr turf course - I've never seen so large a gap at any other track).

slewis

08-03-2009, 10:54 AM