Cash for Clunkers

[bigmack]

Nice program. Chrysler is now doubling the offer so some are getting $9000 rebates. Feds make it WAY more complicated than it needs to be and insist they crush.


H-W8pfySW_4

[wisconsin]

I am on the front line, as a manager in a car dealership. This is a good program, but an extremely flawed system. We cannot get onto the site to even claim these vouchers. $50 million spent on the web site, and the redundancy is mind boggling, to say the least. Scan, no fax, but scan a dozen documents, and then fill out endless boxes. Get to the end to hit submit, and get booted due to high volume. You can go from truck to truck, get 2 miles more per gallon, and get $4,500. You cannot go from SUV to truck no matter what the improvement is. Sales are up, inventory is whacked, we can't replace them fast enough because it takes 8 weeks to get a car start to finish from the factory. I have worked 13 hour days all week, and the customer takes it all out on us, and we didn't even write the rules....

[Dave Schwartz]

We just checked out Chrysler's deals this week. It is a scam ( of sorts).

Here is the deal.

1. You must have a car from model years 1984-2001.

2. The car you are purchasing must have an mpg rating of at least 10 mpg higher than the car you have now.

2a. If it gains only 4 mpg then you qualify for $3,500 instead of $4,500.

3. Chrsyler matches the award.

4. You must have been titled on the car for at least 1 year. (IOW, you can't buy a $500 car and get back $9k trade-in.)

5. What you get is the total trade-in for your car. (IOW, not in addition to your trade-in.)

6. Chrysler has exactly 2 cars that qualify to purchase.



Other manufacturers may be different on # 3 and #6. (We stopped into Saturn and looked at cars there. They did not have #3 at all and also had only 2 cars that qualified.)

[LottaKash]

We just checked out Chrysler's deals this week. It is a scam ( of sorts).

Here is the deal.

1. You must have a car from model years 1984-2001.

2. The car you are purchasing must have an mpg rating of at least 10 mpg higher than the car you have now.

2a. If it gains only 4 mpg then you qualify for $3,500 instead of $4,500.

3. Chrsyler matches the award.

4. You must have been titled on the car for at least 1 year. (IOW, you can't buy a $500 car and get back $9k trade-in.)

5. What you get is the total trade-in for your car. (IOW, not in addition to your trade-in.)

6. Chrysler has exactly 2 cars that qualify to purchase.



Other manufacturers may be different on # 3 and #6. (We stopped into Saturn and looked at cars there. They did not have #3 at all and also had only 2 cars that qualified.)

Funny thing that this thread popped up just today.....

My wife had been wanting a Toyota "Scion" for quite some time now, and since she is a teller in a bank, she is always hearing things....Comes Monday, and the old-people are bopping in and out getting their hard saved kash, so my wife finally asks one of the regulars and he is all excited about the "kash for Klunkrs" deal sponsored byt the US Gov't.....

My wife tells me all about it that day, and since we have (had) an old 1988 Ford F-150 p/u truck with about 200Kmi on it, and her fund portfolio had recovered back to where it was, before she took some whopping hits in the last wall-street fiasco...We decided to look further into the specifics.....

The F-150 just makes the 10mpg difference between the average of 24 for the Scion (a friend has an 09' and he is getting 32mpg), so we make arrangements to get the deal and the car.....We had an appointment for Sat. afternoon, only the grapevine says that the demand was so high nationwide, that the gov't was going to the suspend the Sep-09 deadline for the deal, as of today Fri 7/31 (then it was changed to the end of the weekend)...So I ran down there and put my bid and order in....

Turns out they have the one that she wanted, color and goodies, and all, and it just came in today....So there it is sitting in our garage tonite.....

So we got a nicely loaded car with MSRP of $19,500 for $15K.....Has the new top of the line "Allpine" touch screen Fm/Cd....great alloy wheels, and Goodyear "Eagles" RSA's....(suprised about the way premium tires)....

To top it off it is a 2010 model vs. the 09 that they were selling off...

Scion's have come a long way since their inception....Roomy as all get out, front and back, ergonomically nice as well.....rides like a dream and is oh so quiet as well....

Honey-Pie is ecstatic tonite....she deserves it too, what a girl....

best,

[ArlJim78]

yeah what a wonderful well run system. endless paperwork, jammed up website, confusing rules, your typical government boondoggle. burned through a billion in a week and had to go back to authorize more. keep this memory in your mind when you think about how smooth Obamacare is going to be. clunkercare is more like it.

they should stay out of the market. Why should government use taxpayer money to subsidize car sales? you know once they start something its nearly impossible to stop.

[LottaKash]

The dealers, in order to get re-imbursed, are required by law, in order to get the real gas guzzlers off the road, to obtain a federally numbered regulated chemical, and add it to the gas mixture....This will cause the engine to "Seize up", and then they will go to an approved facility to be cut up into little pieces ala a woodchipper type protocol.....

It seems that the Scrap-guys wanted to scuttle them for parts, but the feds said no....They wanted them "gone", period !...lol

best,

[ddog]

but , but it's free money, the source of the money is no big deal.

free money for all, that's the ticket. seems to be popular judging by the demand.

i hope all the people getting these new cars are ok with the taxes and insurance that come along with them.

if we are so concerned about mpg and all that , why not cash for bus passes or cash for used cars.

why make new ones which waste energy when we have plenty of good high mpg used ones.

also what about all the auto mechanics and their families that are now going on welfare since everyone will drive new now.

it reminds me of nothing so much as a communist 5 year program being supported with borrowed money.

i am sure that the dealers are not charging msrp now are they? :D

a freakin joke.

:lol:


it gets funnier and funnier, so to scuttle the clunkers means that you are trying to put a floor under the used car prices or you are keeping some poor person from getting their dream clunker since you are scrapping them.

:lol: :lol:

[LottaKash]

but , but it's free money, the source of the money is no big deal.


:lol:

Cheer up Dog, the gummint, can just print some more, it so ez....:D

best,

[dutchboy]

Go to the gov't website for the cash for clunkers program. Then click on the privacy button at the bottom of the page. There are several disclosures as to what they can or will do that should be read carefully.

[Tom]

cars.gov?

Don't go there - you will be very sorry.
You will turn over all rights to your computer to the feds if you agree to the term of the website .

Read it it word for word and then get out - do not continue!

Warning - all the stuff the libs were so worried about Bush doing with wire taps is right here, and you have to agree to it to get in.

It is a trap!

[wisconsin]

The biggest flaw in the system is the people who are trading right now. It's mom and pop well-to-do who are ridding the old clunker and can most afford a car right now. The people this should be helping can't afford a new car, or did not have insurance on the clunker. I was against this one from day one. Sure, we sold some cars, but now we are out of cars to sell. Does that make any sense? We don't have enough inventory, on the lot or incoming, to meet the demand 500,000 more cars will cause after they approve $2 billion more. It takes 2 months to get a car built, and the order banks are already jammed. If the car is coming from overseas, the wait is 100 days. Some clunkers are very servicable, but there are some real bad non-qualifiers out there, too. A better way would have been to simply offer a tax credit of, say, $2,000 to anyone who bought a new vehicle (or used from a liscensed dealer) this year. But, that would have defeated the purpose of this stimulus. In the governments eyes, this helps the dealers, sales staff, manufacturers, clunker carriers, clunker yards, service departments who are required to disable the car, the local drug store, who supplies the silicate to dealers, advertising agencies, who in turn provide revenue to radio and tv, and so on. All of these things are free market, and should be left alone.

The paperwork is overwhelming, and the website is not equipped to handle this. I can only imagine what health care red tape will be like. What a nightmare.

[Marshall Bennett]

Well said Wis :ThmbUp: Ultimately the program can be seen being financed by tax dollars , much of which comes form those unable to afford a car and who can barely afford to pay taxes . Another Obama wonder .

[dutchboy]

I am on the front line, as a manager in a car dealership. This is a good program, but an extremely flawed system. We cannot get onto the site to even claim these vouchers. $50 million spent on the web site, and the redundancy is mind boggling, to say the least. Scan, no fax, but scan a dozen documents, and then fill out endless boxes. Get to the end to hit submit, and get booted due to high volume. You can go from truck to truck, get 2 miles more per gallon, and get $4,500. You cannot go from SUV to truck no matter what the improvement is. Sales are up, inventory is whacked, we can't replace them fast enough because it takes 8 weeks to get a car start to finish from the factory. I have worked 13 hour days all week, and the customer takes it all out on us, and we didn't even write the rules....

Since you are a mgr for a car dealer can you explain why I cannot go to a new car dealer and not have to negotiate the price. Cars are nice but the hassle to buy one is a pain in the posterior.

Many years ago when I bought a new car it was usually ordered from the dealer. A deposit was paid at the time the order was placed. The dealer had a few cars for show so there was little cost to carry the huge inventory they now have. If I wanted financing I went to different banks to find the best rate and payments went direct to the bank so the dealer did not have the fixed cost of numerous financing employees.

My two cent opinion is that the car dealers need to go back to a more simplified business plan.

[dutchboy]

Just another scam to prop up the auto industry. The cash for clunkers money goes direct to the dealer. Hopefully the new health care bill gets passed soon so that when the car dealers start fainting from holding their breath waiting for the money from the Gov't will have their medical bills will be paid for.

What keeps the dealers from now selling the cars at the posted sticker price before the cash for clunkers deal. Few people have ever paid the posted sticker price for a long time. 30k sticker price for a car that was discounted to 21k is now sold for 30k. Should be interesting to see how many of the cars sold under this plan are repossed within a year. If someone is driving a clunker the reason may be because they could not afford the payments and the increased insurance costs of a new car and the taxes on the new car purchase and the increased cost to renew the license plates.

[witchdoctor]

We looked at the requirements and said "forget it." Wound up buying my wife a 2009 Porshe Boxster last night.

[boxcar]

If the state can't efficiently handle this stupid car program that is infinitely less complex than health care, I can't even begin to imagine the nightmarish experiences people will experience with government-run health care. I truly cannot. It defies even my imagination. But then again...."efficiency" and "government" in the same sentence is a genuine oxymoron, isn't it?

Boxcar

[wisconsin]

Since you are a mgr for a car dealer can you explain why I cannot go to a new car dealer and not have to negotiate the price. Cars are nice but the hassle to buy one is a pain in the posterior.

Many years ago when I bought a new car it was usually ordered from the dealer. A deposit was paid at the time the order was placed. The dealer had a few cars for show so there was little cost to carry the huge inventory they now have. If I wanted financing I went to different banks to find the best rate and payments went direct to the bank so the dealer did not have the fixed cost of numerous financing employees.

My two cent opinion is that the car dealers need to go back to a more simplified business plan.

The margins are nowhere near what they once were. You also cannot sell what you can't see. Ordering from the factory is great, and if you prefer to do that you still can. Would you rather we prop one of each at WalMart and you go order one from there?

As far as the price goes, I was never a fan of negotiating. It is the customer who wants a discount, and then loads of throw-ins. The sticker is what it is, and the competition is so fierce, we are all whores, unless it's a Hybrid or a new release specialty car. Trust me, a customer will walk over $10 from another dealer. The building we are in cost over $4 million to build. And no, the manufacturer did not pony up a nickel. Customers, unfortunatley, have no clue of the true overhead of a car dealership. That being said, if you are reasonable, so are we. If you want to grind right down to the last 3 cents, you are more trouble than it's worth. Sure, we sold a truck for $40 grand, but made $900 on the deal. Wow, so easy everyone should open a dealership! Next time you buy some furniture, or clothes, or a gallon of milk, try asking for a discount.

I know this is off topic, but it was asked of me and I obliged.

[Marshall Bennett]

If the state can't efficiently handle this stupid car program that is infinitely less complex than health care, I can't even begin to imagine the nightmarish experiences people will experience with government-run health care. I truly cannot. It defies even my imagination. But then again...."efficiency" and "government" in the same sentence is a genuine oxymoron, isn't it?

Boxcar
This is all true . Case in point , they went through the first billion dollars in the clunker program in no time , far quicker than they had projected . Now they're adding more . I would expect nothing less from their " experts " when national health care kicks off , there we're talking in trillions .

[wisconsin]

Just another scam to prop up the auto industry. The cash for clunkers money goes direct to the dealer. Hopefully the new health care bill gets passed soon so that when the car dealers start fainting from holding their breath waiting for the money from the Gov't will have their medical bills will be paid for.

What keeps the dealers from now selling the cars at the posted sticker price before the cash for clunkers deal. Few people have ever paid the posted sticker price for a long time. 30k sticker price for a car that was discounted to 21k is now sold for 30k. Should be interesting to see how many of the cars sold under this plan are repossed within a year. If someone is driving a clunker the reason may be because they could not afford the payments and the increased insurance costs of a new car and the taxes on the new car purchase and the increased cost to renew the license plates.

The cash for clunkers money, by law, shown as a discount. You go out and front $200,000 to car buyers, and then wait to collect the money. Where does it go to the dealers? It comes off the deal, period. The $30K car is still sold for $21K. The rebates never left.

[Tom]

If the state can't efficiently handle this stupid car program that is infinitely less complex than health care, I can't even begin to imagine the nightmarish experiences people will experience with government-run health care. I truly cannot. It defies even my imagination. But then again...."efficiency" and "government" in the same sentence is a genuine oxymoron, isn't it?

Boxcar

Bingo - it is a prefect example of government ineptitude. They could not handle a simple billion dollar program - and they were so far off with their projections it is scary.

The program takes usable cars out of service, increases consumer debt, dries up the parts market, send tons of metal to China so they can make new stuff, dip it in lead paint, and ship it back here to undercut American products.

Good plan, Bammy.

[dutchboy]

The margins are nowhere near what they once were. You also cannot sell what you can't see. Ordering from the factory is great, and if you prefer to do that you still can. Would you rather we prop one of each at WalMart and you go order one from there?

As far as the price goes, I was never a fan of negotiating. It is the customer who wants a discount, and then loads of throw-ins. The sticker is what it is, and the competition is so fierce, we are all whores, unless it's a Hybrid or a new release specialty car. Trust me, a customer will walk over $10 from another dealer. The building we are in cost over $4 million to build. And no, the manufacturer did not pony up a nickel. Customers, unfortunatley, have no clue of the true overhead of a car dealership. That being said, if you are reasonable, so are we. If you want to grind right down to the last 3 cents, you are more trouble than it's worth. Sure, we sold a truck for $40 grand, but made $900 on the deal. Wow, so easy everyone should open a dealership! Next time you buy some furniture, or clothes, or a gallon of milk, try asking for a discount.

I know this is off topic, but it was asked of me and I obliged.

The reason people ask for a discount from a car dealer is because car dealers allow it and promote it. You may have made 900 on a 40k truck but I bet that did not include the rebate from the mfg, the rebate from the financing company, the questionable charges for transportation and who knows what else comes back to the dealer after the sale. 900 probably pays for the commisison to the sales person.

The WalMart idea is not bad. They don't play the constant price games the auto dealers do with pricing. Don't know why you would think you cannot sell what you cannot see.

[wisconsin]

Bingo - it is a prefect example of government ineptitude. They could not handle a simple billion dollar program - and they were so far off with their projections it is scary.

The program takes usable cars out of service, increases consumer debt, dries up the parts market, send tons of metal to China so they can make new stuff, dip it in lead paint, and ship it back here to undercut American products.

Good plan, Bammy.

Agree with everything, except the part about consumer debt. More than half of these transactions (at least our dealrship's) are cash in hand deals. this program was supposed to help clunker drivers, but has instead gone to benefit upper middle class.

[wisconsin]

The reason people ask for a discount from a car dealer is because car dealers allow it and promote it. You may have made 900 on a 40k truck but I bet that did not include the rebate from the mfg, the rebate from the financing company, the questionable charges for transportation and who knows what else comes back to the dealer after the sale. 900 probably pays for the commisison to the sales person.

The WalMart idea is not bad. They don't play the constant price games the auto dealers do with pricing. Don't know why you would think you cannot sell what you cannot see.

Going off topic here, but with all due respect, you have'nt got a clue as to what you are talking about. Of course we allow it. No argument there. What rebate from the manufacturer are you talking about? Who cares what comes back to the dealer? What does that have to do with anything? I was in the grocery business, and kickback checks were a part of the game. But you don't question a grocer now, do you? But for the uneducated, I will explain the process.

We order a car, pay INVOICE to the manufacturer when the invoice is produced. We actually borrow that money. It's called a floor plan. Interest is already accruing on a car we don't have yet. The transportation charge is already in the price, both on MSRP and invoice. What do you think it costs to move a car on a truck to a train, to a yard, to a truck, and then to a dealer? The price is set by the manufacturer and we don't control it. We get 3% of the MSRP, AFTER the transport fee is deducted and this is called HOLDBACK. We also get a credit memo for 30 days of interest. Whoopee. The $900 on a $40k truck was an example of a $300 below invoice deal. The salesman makes $100 on that one, and the dealer makes $800. From that, we do have a mortgage, utilities, office and management costs, cost of a detailer and we fill the car with gas ($100 on some trucks). I have no trouble sharing this, but believe what you want to believe. Oh, and the financing part, yes we get a cut from the bank. Go get your own loan. I sure hope you don't have your own mortgage, because your broker made a killing on kickback of your own home loan! Sorry to ramble, but had to set the record straight for people who are not even in the business, but know "all about it".

[Valuist]

I heard a dealer talking to Bob Brinker over the weekend and he says there's becoming a big problem in dealing with the wreckers. Once the dealer takes the car in, they have to send it to the wrecker. Only problem is, the wreckers don't want to deal with the government, so the dealer is stuck. Look for more dealers to not take part in the clunker program.

[ezrabrooks]

By the end of the year the stories of corruption with regard to this program will be front and center. Car Salesman plus free money....a recipe for all kinds of theft and malfeasance.

Ez

[Tom]

I posted the other day about the trap Obama has set up in the cars.gov website, to take ownership of your computers if you agree to TOS to enter the site.

Glen Beck is going to be covering more details about it in the next few minutes (10 am EST) and again on his Fox show tonight. Scary stuff here.

[ArlJim78]

this idea of turning in your older less efficient models and having the dealers kill them off in exchange for some cash, somehow sounds eerily like the health care approach they're taking with seniors.:eek:

[Tom]

Cash for GEEZERS! :eek:

[ddog]

I heard a dealer talking to Bob Brinker over the weekend and he says there's becoming a big problem in dealing with the wreckers. Once the dealer takes the car in, they have to send it to the wrecker. Only problem is, the wreckers don't want to deal with the government, so the dealer is stuck. Look for more dealers to not take part in the clunker program.


You ARE dreaming.

No dealer will refuse this, it's too much money.

Instead look for more clunkers to end up in a ditch or on a "backlot" somewhere rusting away for decades.

[ddog]

I posted the other day about the trap Obama has set up in the cars.gov website, to take ownership of your computers if you agree to TOS to enter the site.

Glen Beck is going to be covering more details about it in the next few minutes (10 am EST) and again on his Fox show tonight. Scary stuff here.


this is tin-foil stuff,sorry.

it's funny that the "privacy" dudes are NOW all up in arms over a gvt web-site, that THEY say is part of a program that the gvt can't admin and this website, which is so bogged down that most couldn't get on it if they wanted, is NOw a threat to their privacy from the gvt.

Most of the same ones that are screaming this were/are fine with the various ad-hoc (no consent asked or required) data hoovering that goes on every day.

Not a peep out of them.

fools .

[Tom]

Hey ddog, go the the website....cars.gov, and click on agree to the terms.
I dare you.

[dartman51]

You ARE dreaming.

No dealer will refuse this, it's too much money.

Instead look for more clunkers to end up in a ditch or on a "backlot" somewhere rusting away for decades.

ddog, c'mon dude, get your head out of the sand. A DEALER was on the news this morning, stating that he was working his own deals for the people on the C4C deal. Too much red tape, doesn't trust the government to reimburse all his money, needs used cars on his lot to sell to those that can't afford NEW, plus, if he makes a mistake on the paperwork, he can be fined up to $15,000. Such a SWEET DEAL, everyone should jump on it. And you really do need to go to cars.gov and check out what you have to agree to, before you dismiss it as foolish talk. :)

[Warren Henry]

You ARE dreaming.

No dealer will refuse this, it's too much money.



You know not of what you speak.
Lots of dealers are refusing to participate. Many fear that they will take in the cars and the government will either significantly delay or refuse payment to them. The dealers are fronting the cash on these deals.

One dealer I spoke with Saturday said that they had taken in 20 clunkers but had quit because of the overhead of the program. The paperwork that has to be submitted to the government is 40-50 pages long, has to be filled in online and when you hit the submit button often the system locks up making you start over. He said that they had to hire someone just to do the paperwork for these deals. He also said he did not know of any local dealer who had had a deal approved and been reimbursed by the government.

Even the dealers who are participating locally are making the customer sign a paper saying that they will return the new car if the Government doesn't pay.

You heard it here first -- there are going to be some dealers lose their businesses due to this program and the government screwing them around on the payments.

[wisconsin]

You know not of what you speak.
Lots of dealers are refusing to participate. Many fear that they will take in the cars and the government will either significantly delay or refuse payment to them. The dealers are fronting the cash on these deals.

One dealer I spoke with Saturday said that they had taken in 20 clunkers but had quit because of the overhead of the program. The paperwork that has to be submitted to the government is 40-50 pages long, has to be filled in online and when you hit the submit button often the system locks up making you start over. He said that they had to hire someone just to do the paperwork for these deals. He also said he did not know of any local dealer who had had a deal approved and been reimbursed by the government.

Even the dealers who are participating locally are making the customer sign a paper saying that they will return the new car if the Government doesn't pay.

You heard it here first -- there are going to be some dealers lose their businesses due to this program and the government screwing them around on the payments.

What Warren said! :ThmbUp:

Our dealership is on the hook for over $100k. A very dangerous game, IMHO.

[Tom]

As we saw with the Government's handling of the Chrysler/GM abductions, this gov has no credibility and it's word is meaningless. The laws pertaining to bankruptcy were completely ignored in favor of political thievery and payback.

The rule of law is not a concern to the Obama mob.

So why would anyone take their word for anything?
Dealerships will lose tons of money on this fiasco. They keep changing the mph ratings daily.

If we are to believe the stats, a billion dollars divided by 4500 smackers is 222,222 clunkers no backed up waiting to be crushed. That is not going to happen in a week.

[dutchboy]

If they add another 2 billion there will be 666,666 clunkers to be destroyed.
Should be amusing how it ends up.

Isn't 666 the mark of the devil or something?

[mostpost]

Thank God the radical righties who post here are a tiny, tiny fraction of the people in this country. Ford sales for the month are up for the first time since 2007. Chrysler is running out of cars in some showrooms. Dealers have already turned in 85,000 documents on this program and have a backlog of perhaps hundreds of thousands waiting to be processed. This is a huge shot in the arm for the car industry. But of course that's bad because it's good for unions. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The cars trade in had average mileage of 16 MPG. The new cars have average
mileage of 25MPG. That's a savings of 33% in gasoline usage.

[mostpost]

Hey ddog, go the the website....cars.gov, and click on agree to the terms.
I dare you.

Gee Tom, I tried. I could not find "Agree to terms" anywhere. It doesn't exist.

There is one positive though. You'll never starve. You can just eat all those red herrings you keep buying. :lol: :lol:

[NJ Stinks]

Wisconsin is a car dealer and he said: "This is a good program..." in Post 2 of this thread. Are there startup problems? Yes, and Wisconsin stated what the problems are. Sooner or later those problems will be sorted out. (Hopefully sooner.)


Dealerships will lose tons of money on this fiasco.

I guess that's why dealerships are praying for another 2B. :rolleyes:

[Valuist]

You ARE dreaming.

No dealer will refuse this, it's too much money.

Instead look for more clunkers to end up in a ditch or on a "backlot" somewhere rusting away for decades.

Learn to read. I only repeated what a dealer said on Moneyline over the weekend.

[Warren Henry]

I guess that's why dealerships are praying for another 2B. :rolleyes:



Actually, the reason the dealers are praying for the added 2B is because they have already taken in the clunkers and then the government started to weasel and say it might be over.

How would you like to have a lot full of trades you took on the assumption you would get $3500 or more for each one. But you haven't been able to file the paperwork yet and then the government says "kings X, we ran out of money"

[JustRalph]

how in the hell is this not just another give away?

If Barack said he was going to give 4500 away to a select group of people

there would be howls! But as long as he is helping the auto industry by tossing a few billion more their way.........everybody jumps on board.

Every person who buys a car under this program is taking welfare from the Federal government ...........plain and simple

[NJ Stinks]

Actually, the reason the dealers are praying for the added 2B is because they have already taken in the clunkers and then the government started to weasel and say it might be over.

How would you like to have a lot full of trades you took on the assumption you would get $3500 or more for each one. But you haven't been able to file the paperwork yet and then the government says "kings X, we ran out of money"

You raise a good point, Warren. If the government announces that payment applications will not be accepted after Friday, then the dealer better cover himself as you said they were in Post 33.

As far as the governement weaseling out goes, I think that is a stretch. After all, the House has already passed the $2B extension. If the Senate does not follow suit, I'm confident it won't be Democratic senators or the President who stops the extension.

[NJ Stinks]

how in the hell is this not just another give away?

If Barack said he was going to give 4500 away to a select group of people

there would be howls! But as long as he is helping the auto industry by tossing a few billion more their way.........everybody jumps on board.

Every person who buys a car under this program is taking welfare from the Federal government ...........plain and simple

It's stimulating the economy and helping the environment.

I'm sure you would prefer the Bush tax cut giveaways but be patient. Sooner or later Republicans will be calling the shots again and your kind of giveaway will thrive again. :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

this is tin-foil stuff,sorry.

it's funny that the "privacy" dudes are NOW all up in arms over a gvt web-site, that THEY say is part of a program that the gvt can't admin and this website, which is so bogged down that most couldn't get on it if they wanted, is NOw a threat to their privacy from the gvt.

Most of the same ones that are screaming this were/are fine with the various ad-hoc (no consent asked or required) data hoovering that goes on every day.

Not a peep out of them.

fools .This ddog....he's always got an answer for everything...that's why we love him! :lol:

[ddog]

This ddog....he's always got an answer for everything...that's why we love him! :lol:



well as normal, no sentient response is available from you or the cadre, it's a heavy burden but someone has to try.

:D

[ddog]

Learn to read. I only repeated what a dealer said on Moneyline over the weekend.

learn to reason, i assume you posted it because you thought it not true?
or no thought at all???

[ddog]

You know not of what you speak.
Lots of dealers are refusing to participate. Many fear that they will take in the cars and the government will either significantly delay or refuse payment to them. The dealers are fronting the cash on these deals.

One dealer I spoke with Saturday said that they had taken in 20 clunkers but had quit because of the overhead of the program. The paperwork that has to be submitted to the government is 40-50 pages long, has to be filled in online and when you hit the submit button often the system locks up making you start over. He said that they had to hire someone just to do the paperwork for these deals. He also said he did not know of any local dealer who had had a deal approved and been reimbursed by the government.

Even the dealers who are participating locally are making the customer sign a paper saying that they will return the new car if the Government doesn't pay.

You heard it here first -- there are going to be some dealers lose their businesses due to this program and the government screwing them around on the payments.


speak for yourself, i spoke with several large dealers and NONE of them can refuse. You have two choices, you try it and see or you don't and go busted anyway.

You have heard of the dealers going bust have you not?

been in all the local papers.

You heard it here first(you really did) lots of dealer went bust before this deal and lots will go bust after it.

In your one dealer story, they had participated in the program, they sold what they had on hand i suspect and now the usual guff is spewed after they got theirs.

really.

[ddog]

Actually, the reason the dealers are praying for the added 2B is because they have already taken in the clunkers and then the government started to weasel and say it might be over.

How would you like to have a lot full of trades you took on the assumption you would get $3500 or more for each one. But you haven't been able to file the paperwork yet and then the government says "kings X, we ran out of money"

they need more money because they have already taken in the allotted amount since the deal has been running for a month already and now with the pub more people want in on the free money,thus more funds are required.

the whole thing should never have come about but that's just more foolish american short term thinking, long term be damned.

someone else can pay for it.

[ddog]

What Warren said! :ThmbUp:

Our dealership is on the hook for over $100k. A very dangerous game, IMHO.


i spoke this weekend with three that are on the hook for over 250K each, the only thing that may stop them is the supply of cars is running out.


nothing ventured - nothing gained.

we have way to many dealers in the country anyway.

[Tom]

Gee Tom, I tried. I could not find "Agree to terms" anywhere. It doesn't exist.

There is one positive though. You'll never starve. You can just eat all those red herrings you keep buying. :lol: :lol:

Gee, that's funny. If you would expand your horizons, you would know that the WH pulled it from the site when Beck broke the story. They tried to say it was not supposed to be there, that it was gone now and no harm, yadda yadda yadda. It was where dealers log in to the system.

[mostpost]

Here we go. I did not see the original Beck program. (Like I'd ever watch Fox News) But I did see it on YouTube. Guess what? Beck could not get the offending staement to come up. Surprise!!!Surprise!!! Then they put up the graphic on full screen. Except the warning doesn't come from the Cars.gov website, It comes from ESC.gov which is where dealers log in to participate in the program. Which, of course Beck never mentioned. I mean, why kill a good conspiracy theory with the facts?
He also never mentioned that the only people who can log into ESC.gov are dealers who have registered and been approved for the program and who have received login credentials.
Here are details which comfirm the above:
Before you play the video of Glenn Beck's latest loony-tunes conspiracy theory, keep in mind that it's totally nuts. Here's the key information debunking it:

1.If you are a consumer visiting cars.gov (the "cash for clunkers" website) the Federal government cannot take control over your computer, nor will it ask permission to do so.
2.The "Terms of Use" statement to which Beck refers in this clip is not from cars.gov. Rather it is a login page for dealer transactions located at esc.gov.
3.The only people who can get login credentials for the esc.gov site are dealers who have been screened and registered for the "cash for clunkers" program.
4.To summarize: the page in question isn't on cars.gov and can only be used by dealers who have already registered. Consumers won't be impacted by any of this.

Now, of course, I found this on DailyKos, so it can't poosibly be true. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , except it is.

[ddog]

You know not of what you speak.
Lots of dealers are refusing to participate. Many fear that they will take in the cars and the government will either significantly delay or refuse payment to them. The dealers are fronting the cash on these deals.

One dealer I spoke with Saturday said that they had taken in 20 clunkers but had quit because of the overhead of the program. The paperwork that has to be submitted to the government is 40-50 pages long, has to be filled in online and when you hit the submit button often the system locks up making you start over. He said that they had to hire someone just to do the paperwork for these deals. He also said he did not know of any local dealer who had had a deal approved and been reimbursed by the government.

Even the dealers who are participating locally are making the customer sign a paper saying that they will return the new car if the Government doesn't pay.

You heard it here first -- there are going to be some dealers lose their businesses due to this program and the government screwing them around on the payments.


You know, this may be the best teachable moment , much better than the Gates flap so to help Pa and the "others" and to hold up my end of the deal let's pull a thread or two as Mr. beck would say using Mr. Henry's dealer here:

1. they took in deals from a gvt sponsored program -- seems they didn't do much research on the requirements before they jumped in bed with the gvt, not smart biz.

2. the paperwork is onerous and they had to hire an extra person to do it and the gvt system locked up ---- well what did they expect and as to hiring an extra person--- well in the biz I have ran in the past we looked at our costs going in and if we misjudged we took the hit - we worked harder to make up for the extra time or expense-- they had this option it seems.

3. return the car if the gvt doesn't pay- that sounds like return the car if the customer doesn't pay-- same deal.

4. the dealers were not forced to take the welfare money from the gvt- they freely went in, if they want out that's their choice.

5. prediction time - NO DEALER will be left holding the bag. They will all get payed someday. In the meantime - they are better off getting to "book" the deals than sitting with the cars.

Typical american delusion of something for nothing and when they (this dealer) found out it took a little work and they had to move a finger or two , they got all upset.

heaven forbid they should have to wait or do any work for the gvt FREE MONEY they are getting.

The moral my dear pupils- you don't get something for nothing and if you blindly rely on the gvt for your handouts then it's really bad form to complain about the strings attached.

[mostpost]

There are two questions here. The first of which I have an answer for. The second of which you don't.
Question # 1. Why should the government insist on access to the computers of DEALERS involved in the "Cash For Clunkers" program.
Answer: To prevent fraud; to keep unscrupulous car dealers from claiming sales that did not occur. To give warning that shenanigans will not be tolerated.

Question #2: IF the government were going to Take over your computer (OOOOOOHHH) why would they post a warning? :confused: Why would they use Cars.gov? :confused: :confused:

[ddog]

Here we go. I did not see the original Beck program. (Like I'd ever watch Fox News) But I did see it on YouTube. Guess what? Beck could not get the offending staement to come up. Surprise!!!Surprise!!! Then they put up the graphic on full screen. Except the warning doesn't come from the Cars.gov website, It comes from ESC.gov which is where dealers log in to participate in the program. Which, of course Beck never mentioned. I mean, why kill a good conspiracy theory with the facts?
He also never mentioned that the only people who can log into ESC.gov are dealers who have registered and been approved for the program and who have received login credentials.
Here are details which comfirm the above:
Before you play the video of Glenn Beck's latest loony-tunes conspiracy theory, keep in mind that it's totally nuts. Here's the key information debunking it:

1.If you are a consumer visiting cars.gov (the "cash for clunkers" website) the Federal government cannot take control over your computer, nor will it ask permission to do so.
2.The "Terms of Use" statement to which Beck refers in this clip is not from cars.gov. Rather it is a login page for dealer transactions located at esc.gov.
3.The only people who can get login credentials for the esc.gov site are dealers who have been screened and registered for the "cash for clunkers" program.
4.To summarize: the page in question isn't on cars.gov and can only be used by dealers who have already registered. Consumers won't be impacted by any of this.

Now, of course, I found this on DailyKos, so it can't poosibly be true. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , except it is.



the really "funny" part if one could begin to take this seriously is that people give up as much and more of their "info" everyday with any transaction/website/credit card , any type of interaction on the web.

If the gvt want's to know they ALREADY know guys.

Bush and co. with not a peep out of most here , made sure of that.

After all to use a rather famous phrase here:
"Not a single person has had their rights taken away by cars(esc).gov", not a single one!

[Tom]

Think mostpost - the thing is, the dealers had to agree to forfeit their rights and ours too. Conspiracy my arse - you Obama lock-steppers just refuse to see the forest in front of you.

Consumers won't be impacted by any of this.

The dealer is likely to be have our information on his computer,and that means the gov has full access to it. And aren't DEALERS US citizens, entitled to all the rights of the constitution?

[mostpost]

Think mostpost - the thing is, the dealers had to agree to forfeit their rights and ours too. Conspiracy my arse - you Obama lock-steppers just refuse to see the forest in front of you.



The dealer is likely to be have our information on his computer,and that means the gov has full access to it. And aren't DEALERS US citizens, entitled to all the rights of the constitution?
See 54 above

[ddog]

Think mostpost - the thing is, the dealers had to agree to forfeit their rights and ours too. Conspiracy my arse - you Obama lock-steppers just refuse to see the forest in front of you.



The dealer is likely to be have our information on his computer,and that means the gov has full access to it. And aren't DEALERS US citizens, entitled to all the rights of the constitution?


you are trying to ride a lame horse here, best put her down.

:lol:

[boxcar]

Here we go. I did not see the original Beck program. (Like I'd ever watch Fox News) But I did see it on YouTube. Guess what? Beck could not get the offending staement to come up. Surprise!!!Surprise!!! Then they put up the graphic on full screen. Except the warning doesn't come from the Cars.gov website, It comes from ESC.gov which is where dealers log in to participate in the program. Which, of course Beck never mentioned. I mean, why kill a good conspiracy theory with the facts?
He also never mentioned that the only people who can log into ESC.gov are dealers who have registered and been approved for the program and who have received login credentials.
Here are details which comfirm the above:
Before you play the video of Glenn Beck's latest loony-tunes conspiracy theory, keep in mind that it's totally nuts. Here's the key information debunking it:

1.If you are a consumer visiting cars.gov (the "cash for clunkers" website) the Federal government cannot take control over your computer, nor will it ask permission to do so.
2.The "Terms of Use" statement to which Beck refers in this clip is not from cars.gov. Rather it is a login page for dealer transactions located at esc.gov.
3.The only people who can get login credentials for the esc.gov site are dealers who have been screened and registered for the "cash for clunkers" program.
4.To summarize: the page in question isn't on cars.gov and can only be used by dealers who have already registered. Consumers won't be impacted by any of this.

And you forgot one item:

5. All the above is true only if a Republican President isn't in the White House.

Now, of course, I found this on DailyKos, so it can't poosibly be true. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , except it is.

Oh, DailyKos? Of course. A genuine paragon of virtue. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Tom]

See 54 above

This is not what it is about.
If it were, why is it gone now and why did the WH say it was a mistake?
This said that your computer was government property and part of their network and they had access to everything on it.

[boxcar]

This is not what it is about.
If it were, why is it gone now and why did the WH say it was a mistake?
This said that your computer was government property and part of their network and they had access to everything on it.


No, no, no, Tom! When are you going to learn? It would have been all that and more if Bush were president or some other Republican was in the WH. Dems are always lily white and pure as the driven snow. They see no evil. They speak no evil. They hear no evil. Get down on your knees and praise the state for Dems. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[chickenhead]

Talked with the guys at Lithia on Friday -- they sold out (throughout their entire network).

[dutchboy]

This past weekend a caller to a local radio show said he had purchased a new Chrysler car under the program and drove it home. Dealer calls him the next day and says it was not approved. Reason was that he had purchased his license tabs for the clunker 6 days late in April so technically the car was not licensed during that 6 day period. He said he called the US Senator for his area and was told that the DOT had added this to the bill after the bill was passed.

Car had to be returned. Now the dealer has what was a new car to sell a day earlier is now considered to be a used car.

[wes]

No, no, no, Tom! When are you going to learn? It would have been all that and more if Bush were president or some other Republican was in the WH. Dems are always lily white and pure as the driven snow. They see no evil. They speak no evil. They hear no evil. Get down on your knees and praise the state for Dems. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar



peace on them all

wes

[PaceAdvantage]

Which, of course Beck never mentioned.Actually, he does mention something about "when the dealer logs in."

[Tom]

Don't let facts get in the way of a good roll over.:rolleyes:

[ArlJim78]

doctor zero (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/05/value-and-choice/)illustrates how ridiculous this whole idea is. it's another in a long line of wasteful spending of taxpayers money.
a couple excerpts are below, the whole thing is worth reading at the link.
________________________________________

Cash for Clunkers doesn’t even have the pretense of being a tax credit. It’s a simple subsidy, in which taxpayers who aren’t selling clunkers subsidize people who are buying new cars. Like all government subsidies, including government aid to the poor, C4C is horrendously inefficient. Various observers have pointed out that a great deal of that first billion dollars in funding disappeared into thin air. On top of the taxpayer loot being stolen and squandered, we must add the value of the cars being destroyed. The final cost of this initiative will be far more than the billions of taxpayer dollars Congress has voted to pump into it. Of course, that funding is more of Obama’s reckless deficit spending, so the final total must be marked up to include the titanic interest paid to service the debt.
Subsidies like Cash for Clunkers degrade the value of money by restricting the ways it can be used. All money absorbed by the government loses value this way, because the government will never have the diversity of choices available to millions of free citizens. If the economy can be likened to a vast field of grain, then government spending is a high-pressure fire hose, riddled with thousands of leaks, pumping water purchased on credit from foreign suppliers, and held by a nearsighted madman. The free market is a vast raincloud that stretches for miles. The raincloud is vastly more effective for watering crops than the fire hose.

The destruction of value in this particular subsidy is even worse than usual, because it is a subsidy for the purchase of a product that depreciates with terrible speed - as the old saying goes, a car loses thousands of dollars in value the instant you drive it off the lot. Furthermore, since the C4C subsidy doesn’t completely cover the cost of the new vehicle, the consumer must take out a loan for thousands of dollars to make up the difference - and the interest on this loan, extended over four or five years, will add thousands more to the effective cost of the vehicle. Of course, the socio-economic group most likely to trade in a clunker and make a new car purchase, specifically because of this subsidy, is the group most likely to default on their loans. This particular example of Obamanomics will end up using three billion dollars of deficit spending to cause consumers to take on ten billion dollars in debt - and if the overall delinquency rate of 6% holds for these loans, one of the results will be $360 million in bad debt. The only way to make this money lose value faster would be to soak it in expensive champagne and set it on fire.

[JustRalph]

not only are you paying your neighbors mortgage, now you are buying them a car..........only in America

[Marshall Bennett]

not only are you paying your neighbors mortgage, now you are buying them a car..........only in America
Probably their insurance too before long .

[Tom]

not only are you paying your neighbors mortgage, now you are buying them a car..........only in America

More than likely it is a foreign car to boot! :lol:
That 2 billion we threw at it so far, will be 6 billion when our grand kids pay it off.

[NJ Stinks]

That 2 billion we threw at it so far, will be 6 billion when our grand kids pay it off.

Did you worry about our grand kids when the U.S. cut taxes while simultaneously borrowing at least $10B a month in order to free the people of Iraq? Since we've been in Iraq since March 2003, the Iraq bill for our grand kids is now: 77 months at a minimum of $10B per month or $770B. By your estimate above, it will cost the grand kids $2.31 Trillion (3 x $770B) by the time it's paid off.

Yet, according to your logic, it's crazy to loan the American auto industry less than $100B to save one our biggest industrys. I know you claim to be a real patriot. I'm just not sure what country it is you claim to love. :confused:

[Tom]

Well, dude, it would be a lot better country if we dumped ( poor choices of words) Joisey! :D

But come to the new world order, man - it is now OBAMA's war, not Bush's.....we are there because your boy is keeping us there, and he is talking about massive increases in the number of troops in Afghanistan. Maybe 600,00!!!!!

Bush's spending has been tripled by these morons, with no end in sight.
And I remind you Clinton left us in a recession that BUSH got us out of rather quickly with tax cuts.

And who is selling the most car under clunker's clunker program - NOT GM and Chrysler...FORD and foreign companies. Bottom line GM can't get away from is you have to have the cars people want.

And since the UAW owns GM now, the tax money is not helping Americans, it is paying off cronies. Real Americans do not buy GM or Chrysler products.

http://www.federalbudget.com/

Looks like 2009 (Obama) is setting new records.

[OTM Al]

The cars.gov controversy...more urban myth and misunderstanding in our electronic world

http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/clunkers.asp

[Tom]

No, not myth - it was there, it was worded as he said, it did apply to dealers, and it was taken down after it got outed.

As I said before, it may have been a trial balloon to see what they can get away with. Why was it worded like that to begin with?

[andymays]

'Clunkers' Program Hits a Speed Bump - The Note

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/clunkers-program-hits-a-speed-bump.html

Excerpt:

Republiicans are throwing their support behind an amendment offered by Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, that would limit clunker rebates to individuals with annual incomes of 50 K or less. With Republican support the amendment stands a good chance of passing unless the majority of Democrats, who mostly favor the amendment, vote against it.

[wisconsin]

'Clunkers' Program Hits a Speed Bump - The Note

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/clunkers-program-hits-a-speed-bump.html

Excerpt:

Republiicans are throwing their support behind an amendment offered by Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, that would limit clunker rebates to individuals with annual incomes of 50 K or less. With Republican support the amendment stands a good chance of passing unless the majority of Democrats, who mostly favor the amendment, vote against it.

Great, more paperwork and responsibility on the dealer. Will we be forced to now scan the customers 1040? The customers who have been buying are the ones who can afford it. This myth about the less well-to-do people trying to buy is total bull, Most of the deals we have done are cash transaction, ie; we are getting the people who hold on to their cars forever to begin with. We have yet to process a getmedone finance deal in this program, and we have done over 30 cars. Leave it alone.

[cj's dad]

And these are the same people who want to administer our health care-

God help us !!!

[Tom]

Toyota loves this program.

[exactaplayer]

And these are the same people who want to administer our health care-

God help us !!!
If we don't get some health care reform, you will need more then God to help you pay your insurance premiums soon. Hang on, the insurance companies are going to get back the millions of dollars they are spending to defeat this.

[cj's dad]

If we don't get some health care reform, you will need more then God to help you pay your insurance premiums soon. Hang on, the insurance companies are going to get back the millions of dollars they are spending to defeat this.

You have absolutely no idea of what type of health care I have, who pays for it, etc....

I want no part of government interference in my health care plan. Look at the wonderful job the gvm't is doing at the VA hospitals around the country.
No Thank you.

[prospector]

You have absolutely no idea of what type of health care I have, who pays for it, etc....

I want no part of government interference in my health care plan. Look at the wonderful job the gvm't is doing at the VA hospitals around the country.
No Thank you.
actually, i'm going to the VA twice a year...i have a factor 8 blood problem and would have died if it wasn't for a little lady doctor who wouldn't let me..i've been very happy with my VA care..it does take a little long to get appointments though..they need more doctors at all facilities..but they are very into preventive medicine..where i disagree is they won't agree that agent orange caused this blood problem..i want other vets warned to watch out for bruises that just show up..if it happens get your factor 8 checked..factor 8 is what makes your blood clog..
i had a hell of a time convincing the medicare people i didn't want to join..the VA covers all my needs..it took 3 months to get them to leave me alone..

[exactaplayer]

You have absolutely no idea of what type of health care I have, who pays for it, etc....

I want no part of government interference in my health care plan. Look at the wonderful job the gvm't is doing at the VA hospitals around the country.
No Thank you.
I did not say what type of health care you have. I said get ready to pay a lot more if we do not get health care reform. Sheesh
Ask any medicare recipient for an opinion on government health care. Prospector has already responded regarding va hospitals.

[cj's dad]

Re: the VA- I know 3 veterans who use the local VA hospital for all their needs and theirs are nothing but horror stories- long waits for appts.- long waits when there- long waits for follow ups.


I know the VA hospital in DC got a horrific write up about 1 year ago-
water stains on the ceiling
unsanitary conditions
rodents
poor care
the food must have been good- the rodents were all overweight.

I am not anywhere near an expert on any type of health care other than my own and my entire life life it has been very good. Why would I possibly want it to change.

I just underwent knee surgery on 8-17. Total cost to me was one co-pay of $25.
The wait for surgery from diagnosis to surgery- 3 weeks.
After care - excellent

[dutchboy]

Someone wrote in the newspaper that when he first heard of the cash for clunkers program he assumed they were referring to signing of NY METS baseball players in the past few years.

[Lefty]

It's creating an artificial mkt that we taxpayers are paying for. No doubt it's destroying the used car mkt as well.

[dartman51]

Someone wrote in the newspaper that when he first heard of the cash for clunkers program he assumed they were referring to signing of NY METS baseball players in the past few years.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :ThmbUp:

[dartman51]

I saw an interview with a car dealer yesterday, that stated that the cars taken in on the C4C deal, won't necessarily be destroyed. Cars that are in really good shape, will be sold out the back door to wholesalers who will take them to auction, and could wind up back on the same car lot that they came from. That's a real good way to get gas guzzlers off the roads. :eek:

[dutchboy]

I saw an interview with a car dealer yesterday, that stated that the cars taken in on the C4C deal, won't necessarily be destroyed. Cars that are in really good shape, will be sold out the back door to wholesalers who will take them to auction, and could wind up back on the same car lot that they came from. That's a real good way to get gas guzzlers off the roads. :eek:

The Italians must love this program.

[Valuist]

I saw an interview with a car dealer yesterday, that stated that the cars taken in on the C4C deal, won't necessarily be destroyed. Cars that are in really good shape, will be sold out the back door to wholesalers who will take them to auction, and could wind up back on the same car lot that they came from. That's a real good way to get gas guzzlers off the roads. :eek:

A lot of wreckers don't want to deal with the government and won't participate in the program.

BTW, all this program is doing is adding to sales now that likely would be 6 months or a year or two down the line. Not to mention taking away from possible sales of other goods as the troubled consumer reloads their debt.

[Valuist]

It's creating an artificial mkt that we taxpayers are paying for. No doubt it's destroying the used car mkt as well.

Bingo.

[newtothegame]

My only wonder (that I havent seen mentioned yet or talked about in detail is) what happens down the road? I mean , sure alot of car sales are being taken on the hear and now. So a company like Ford, Toyota etc etc will post numbers that look rather nice to investors there by having the markets rise on those numbers. Isnt this causing a "bubble"? What happens when those same car manufacturers arent selling as many in say six months to a year or two cause they sold alot NOW? What will the fourth quarter of this year look like to investors?

I can see the headlines now.....

Car sales down 20%....hmmm wonder what that will look like on the markets?
Wont it look like a recession all over again? Housing starts will have to decline because as someone earlier in thread mentioned, these transactions are happening with "cash in hand". Hmmm less cash to go to housing sales....
this is not looking good....
Forget the conspiracy thoughts...Im thinking reality is not looking good six months from now unless this will be a never ending program:bang:

[boxcar]

Liberals don't concern themselves with such "mundane" issues as reality. They're perpetually obsessed with manufacturing their own version: They call it Utopia.

Boxcar

[Warren Henry]

The U.S. government is calling its Cash for Clunkers program a big success, with nearly 690,000 vehicles sold in July and August. But a report by automotive Web site Edmunds.com says the program actually cost taxpayers $24,000 per car sold.
Only 125,000, or 18%, of the sales were incremental, according to Edmunds.com -- the remaining 82% of sales would have happened regardless of the program.
The $24,000 is the price for the sales of vehicles that were a direct result of the program, Edmunds.com said.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/default.aspx?feat=1341914

[ddog]

gvt success is all about convincing people that this is just like before, the worst is over and that the new "gains" are real.

In that light for most people still employed it was a success. :lol:



Just as the homebuyers tax giveaway was a success.
Giving money to people to incent them to make bad choices is not a long-term success. Oh well, anyone that still needs this explained isn't going to understand anyway! It's exactly how we brought a major part of this on in the first place.
:D

[Black Ruby]

gvt success is all about convincing people that this is just like before, the worst is over and that the new "gains" are real.

In that light for most people still employed it was a success. :lol:



Just as the homebuyers tax giveaway was a success.
Giving money to people to incent them to make bad choices is not a long-term success. Oh well, anyone that still needs this explained isn't going to understand anyway! It's exactly how we brought a major part of this on in the first place.
:D

The Brookings Institute estimates that the $8,000 credit costs taxpayers $43,000 per home. This is based on the fact that 85% of the nearly 2 million buyers were planning to buy a home anyway. The new add-ons to the bill mean that its final costs will be much greater than originally anticipated.

[ddog]

The Brookings Institute estimates that the $8,000 credit costs taxpayers $43,000 per home. This is based on the fact that 85% of the nearly 2 million buyers were planning to buy a home anyway. The new add-ons to the bill mean that its final costs will be much greater than originally anticipated.


....and I will wager that most of the ones that were not going to buy , jumped in just to take the free money and are underwater at the time of closing AND will default like mad within 5 or LESS years and then who will get stuck with that mess???? mmmmmmmm mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!


NRa ---- BUY NOW OR BE PRICED OUT FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I will take the market on that. :D


.and last i heard the CONgress was going to open this up to almost all income groups and double or triple the tax credit. Yeah, that should work like a charm.
:confused: :(

[Black Ruby]

....and I will wager that most of the ones that were not going to buy , jumped in just to take the free money and are underwater at the time of closing AND will default like mad within 5 or LESS years and then who will get stuck with that mess???? mmmmmmmm mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!


NRa ---- BUY NOW OR BE PRICED OUT FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I will take the market on that. :D


.and last i heard the CONgress was going to open this up to almost all income groups and double or triple the tax credit. Yeah, that should work like a charm.
:confused: :(

I liked the proposition I heard, where the government, instead of bailing out the banks, should have given every working person over 50 a million dollars with 3 stipulations.
1) they have to pay off their mortgage
2) they have to pay off any credit card debt they have
3) they retire, freeing up jobs

[hazzardm]

Someone wrote in the newspaper that when he first heard of the cash for clunkers program he assumed they were referring to signing of NY METS baseball players in the past few years.

My mom recently bought a new car (during the clunker program), but refused to refer to her current vehicle as a CLUNKER :D

[ddog]

I liked the proposition I heard, where the government, instead of bailing out the banks, should have given every working person over 50 a million dollars with 3 stipulations.
1) they have to pay off their mortgage
2) they have to pay off any credit card debt they have
3) they retire, freeing up jobs


ANYTHING was better than the zombie brigade, anything.
Give Tom and BOX 10 million before a bankster gets to sit on it.

[Black Ruby]

ANYTHING was better than the zombie brigade, anything.
Give Tom and BOX 10 million before a bankster gets to sit on it.

NOT THAT!!! How about a $10mil overnight 5f stakes at EvD for La bred Mdn F&M 3 yr old and up?

[Warren Henry]

So, based on the huge success of the car and housing programs, why not let the government completely redo our healthcare and energy systems?

Sounds like a plan.

mmmmm mmmmm mmmmmm

[ddog]

That kind of post has to be a joke? Right?

YOU have posted other things that made sense.

Do you not think the current "system" grew up inside a gvt structure?

If what resulted from that is this then why was that growth so good?


You seem to make it mandatory that the current system sprung from the earth fully formed.

I guess that passes for thought these days.

[exactaplayer]

Two items I caught in the headlines today.
1. Recession is over.
2. Cash for clunkers is responsible for 47% of growth.
hmmmmmmmmmmm

[PaceAdvantage]

2. Cash for clunkers is responsible for 47% of growth.That's a problem...

[Warren Henry]

That kind of post has to be a joke? Right?

YOU have posted other things that made sense.

Do you not think the current "system" grew up inside a gvt structure?

If what resulted from that is this then why was that growth so good?


You seem to make it mandatory that the current system sprung from the earth fully formed.

I guess that passes for thought these days.

Who you talking to? If me, did you miss the sarcasm. I don't like the current system. I don't think that the government making wholesale changes will improve it since the government is what messed it up in the beginning. The government has a lousy track record at running efficient or cost effective programs.

[JustRalph]

http://news.yahoo.com/why-cash-clunkers-hurt-environment-more-helped-024848694.html

Cash for clunkers , and the environment

Who the hell knows...............?