TVG has now reached the anti-horseplayer summit

[InsideThePylons-MW]

They are now promoting Penn National.

Woodbine and Penn National since Betfair has taken over.....what could possibly be next? Charge a buck a bet?

[Tom]

Penn is a natural for TVG - they cancel every other day, so that leaves plenty of empty air , and TVG has plenty of empty hosts to fill it with yapping!

Gee, is it November already???:lol:

[andymays]

When something doesn't make much sense but they do it anyway it usually means somebody's making money somewhere through some dubious deal.

Who cares if the majority of Customers (Horseplayers) don't like it? Not Betfair! :ThmbDown:

[cj's dad]

They are now promoting Penn National.

Woodbine and Penn National since Betfair has taken over.....what could possibly be next? Charge a buck a bet?


PN ranks right up there with Great Lakes Downs and Fort Erie

What's next ? Timonium ?

[harcapper]

TVG & HRTV are designed to attract the new audience. The veteran capper should either use their online video feed from their adw account or obtain RTN.

Quit whining because TVG is never going to do it exactly the way you want unless you become their pres.

[Bochall]

Ahhhh, Penn National. My favorite horse of all time, Phantom On Tour, ended his career at Penn running for a 4k Clm tag...shame. Graded Stakes winner, too. Speaking of nice horses running at small tracks: Out Of Gwedda won the other night at Evangeline Downs in Opelousas,La.

[Marshall Bennett]

More tracks mean more tape delays , a TVG classic procedure .

[Tom Barrister]

They'll probably be covering Charlestown in the near future.

I can't wait until they add the Idaho and B.C. fair circuits. Can you picture Matt Caruthers, on-track, in Western garb?

Marquis Downs is another choice. They could quintuple the handle (about $20k a day) there, not that the adjacent casino would care.

They might as well add the greyhounds, too. It would take the hosts about a week to become experts on that. It would take me about fifteen minutes to teach them enough about greyhounds to fool most of their viewers into thinking the hosts knew what they were talking about.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

It has nothing to do with product quality.

The new tracks they are now promoting have larcenous takeout rates which are bad for every horseplayer, even if you don't bet those tracks.

TVG claims to be horseplayer friendly, for the horseplayer and a network which is focused on bringing new people into the game.

How can they say that while promoting Woodbine with 27% tri takeouts and Penn National with 31% tri, 30% super, 28% P-4 takeouts?


Here is the previous thread on the subject when they started promoting Woodbne.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59003

[Imriledup]

TVG is about TVG and no one else.

They could care less about you or your family.

The Evil NEtwork.

[andymays]

It has nothing to do with product quality.

The new tracks they are now promoting have larcenous takeout rates which are bad for every horseplayer, even if you don't bet those tracks.

TVG claims to be horseplayer friendly, for the horseplayer and a network which is focused on bringing new people into the game.

How can they say that while promoting Woodbine with 27% tri takeouts and Penn National with 31% tri, 30% super, 28% P-4 takeouts?


Here is the previous thread on the subject when they started promoting Woodbne.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59003


HANA should take a stand here. A fight has to start somewhere.

[BUD]

They put a very hot lookin chick on the set monitering the Net--Its like the ole Tubes song---
Oh they added the Value Meter--At first I looked up I thought they were selling value meals- TVG Meals on Wheels.

[Indulto]

It has nothing to do with product quality.

The new tracks they are now promoting have larcenous takeout rates which are bad for every horseplayer, even if you don't bet those tracks.

TVG claims to be horseplayer friendly, for the horseplayer and a network which is focused on bringing new people into the game.

How can they say that while promoting Woodbine with 27% tri takeouts and Penn National with 31% tri, 30% super, 28% P-4 takeouts?


Here is the previous thread on the subject when they started promoting Woodbne.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59003
Would it really surprise anybody here if TVG were suddenly to offer competitive rebates on these high-takeout tracks? How about if New York State suddenly prevented TVG from taking bets from NY residents in an attempt to "solve" the OTB problem?

Since you're bringing back your old thread, ITP, why don't you take a poll here and find out to what extent support exists here for your position regarding TVG?HANA should take a stand here. A fight has to start somewhere.:lol:
AM,
Given your involvment, there's sure to be a fight at DMR first.;)

Shouldn't HANA have a clear position first on ADWs as a whole, and each ADW individually before it takes on any one of them? Shouldn't whatever positions are established meet with membership approval before any action is taken? Shouldn't HANA first establish its position regarding takeout as a whole before it takes positions regarding ADWs? Hopefully that's what Jeff P's current polls are about.

[andymays]

Would it really surprise anybody here if TVG were suddenly to offer competitive rebates on these high-takeout tracks? How about if New York State suddenly prevented TVG from taking bets from NY residents in an attempt to "solve" the OTB problem?

Since you're bringing back your old thread, ITP, why don't you take a poll here and find out to what extent support exists here for your position regarding TVG?:lol:
AM,
Given your involvment, there's sure to be a fight at DMR first.;)

Shouldn't HANA have a clear position first on ADWs as a whole, and each ADW individually before it takes on any one of them? Shouldn't whatever positions are established meet with membership approval before any action is taken? Shouldn't HANA first establish its position regarding takeout as a whole before it takes positions regarding ADWs? Hopefully that's what Jeff P's current polls are about.


Yes! Yes! And Yes! I believe that's what Jeff is doing.

[Relwob Owner]

They'll probably be covering Charlestown in the near future.

I can't wait until they add the Idaho and B.C. fair circuits. Can you picture Matt Caruthers, on-track, in Western garb?

Marquis Downs is another choice. They could quintuple the handle (about $20k a day) there, not that the adjacent casino would care.

They might as well add the greyhounds, too. It would take the hosts about a week to become experts on that. It would take me about fifteen minutes to teach them enough about greyhounds to fool most of their viewers into thinking the hosts knew what they were talking about.


Actually, HRTV just signed up to cover Charlestown thru the end of the year and will be on track for the WVA Classics. You sound like you are knocking CT but the quality of racing is pretty high. Both Commentator and Big Drama have run there this year, they have big fields and big purses. They still struggle to get races off on time, which cause some issues for HRTV as they cover them.

[harcapper]

It has nothing to do with product quality.

The new tracks they are now promoting have larcenous takeout rates which are bad for every horseplayer, even if you don't bet those tracks.

TVG claims to be horseplayer friendly, for the horseplayer and a network which is focused on bringing new people into the game.

How can they say that while promoting Woodbine with 27% tri takeouts and Penn National with 31% tri, 30% super, 28% P-4 takeouts?

I have my doubts that TVG's goal is to promote only tracks with high takeouts. From the Horseplayer site, Del Mar has one of the lowest takeouts yet TVG presents them.

[Track Phantom]

TVG is about TVG and no one else.

They could care less about you or your family.

The Evil NEtwork.

That is 100% true and they proved this fact when they allowed CASH CALL into their domain. CASH CALL is a massive buzzard circling the sky looking for the dying carcas's of a broke horseplayer...and TVG supported this.

[Tom]

PN ranks right up there with Great Lakes Downs and Fort Erie

What's next ? Timonium ?


Whoa,,, there!

Fort Erie been very very good to me!
The key to FE is bet the early horse.
They win early there.
How early?
Today, I cashed a ticket on the winner of the 4th race just before the 2nd race!

Now that's early! :lol:

[turfnsport]

I have my doubts that TVG's goal is to promote only tracks with high takeouts. From the Horseplayer site, Del Mar has one of the lowest takeouts yet TVG presents them.

PENN has a very high takeout and a very low host fee.

That means TVG as a ADW can make big $$$.

I have not bet Penn or Philly in 15 years despite getting a hefty rebate at Penn. Any track that offers wagers with a 30%+ take should be scorned by EVERY horseplayer.

[cj's dad]

Whoa,,, there!

Fort Erie been very very good to me!
The key to FE is bet the early horse.
They win early there.
How early?
Today, I cashed a ticket on the winner of the 4th race just before the 2nd race!

Now that's early! :lol:

Sure it wasn't Penn ??

[Imriledup]

That is 100% true and they proved this fact when they allowed CASH CALL into their domain. CASH CALL is a massive buzzard circling the sky looking for the dying carcas's of a broke horseplayer...and TVG supported this.

TVG being in bed with cashcall, Penn National and god knows what else is equivalent to kicking a sleeping homeless man in the head and taking his last 25 cents.

[Relwob Owner]

TVG being in bed with cashcall, Penn National and god knows what else is equivalent to kicking a sleeping homeless man in the head and taking his last 25 cents.


What is the benefit to TVG to broadcast tracks with higher takeout rates?

As far as their affiliations with the other places, I dont think it is that big a deal. TVG/Betfair is running a business and is involved in a sport whose popularity is declining every day. They have to do everything they can to stay afloat and if that means being involved with Cashcall, so be it.

[Imriledup]

What is the benefit to TVG to broadcast tracks with higher takeout rates?

As far as their affiliations with the other places, I dont think it is that big a deal. TVG/Betfair is running a business and is involved in a sport whose popularity is declining every day. They have to do everything they can to stay afloat and if that means being involved with Cashcall, so be it.

If you have to sleep with the snakes to get every last dollar, you might be in the wrong business. If i owned a restaurant and the only way i could keep afloat is to serve tainted food to people, i'd get out of the business and admit i didn't have what it took to really turn a profit in my chosen endeavor.

[Relwob Owner]

If you have to sleep with the snakes to get every last dollar, you might be in the wrong business. If i owned a restaurant and the only way i could keep afloat is to serve tainted food to people, i'd get out of the business and admit i didn't have what it took to really turn a profit in my chosen endeavor.


Well, the horse racing business has it's fair share of snakes and if you are going to be in the position that TVG Betfair is in, you cant avoid them and hope to stay afloat. In the case of Penn, they arent making people bet there. They simply made an agreement to broadcast their races. What other tracks would you prefer they partner with?

As far as "having what it takes" what is TVG supposed to do when Cashcall offers to sponsor? Do you really think networks can afford to be that picky about who advertises and sponsors things? If they were, there wouldnt be any networks around....

[Imriledup]

Well, the horse racing business has it's fair share of snakes and if you are going to be in the position that TVG Betfair is in, you cant avoid them and hope to stay afloat. In the case of Penn, they arent making people bet there. They simply made an agreement to broadcast their races. What other tracks would you prefer they partner with?

As far as "having what it takes" what is TVG supposed to do when Cashcall offers to sponsor? Do you really think networks can afford to be that picky about who advertises and sponsors things? If they were, there wouldnt be any networks around....

They aren't making people bet there just like your local bar isn't making you drink. But, if a guy is sitting at your bar falling down drunk and orders one more for the road, are you going to serve him?

[Track Phantom]

If you have to sleep with the snakes to get every last dollar, you might be in the wrong business. If i owned a restaurant and the only way i could keep afloat is to serve tainted food to people, i'd get out of the business and admit i didn't have what it took to really turn a profit in my chosen endeavor.

Because if TVG really cared about it's customer base, they would not bring in 200% interest rate loan sharks to prey off of their customers.

They are concerned about making a dime and if that means everyone of their customer's is broke....so be it....

[Imriledup]

Because if TVG really cared about it's customer base, they would not bring in 200% interest rate loan sharks to prey off of their customers.

They are concerned about making a dime and if that means everyone of their customer's is broke....so be it....

I agree.

[Relwob Owner]

They aren't making people bet there just like your local bar isn't making you drink. But, if a guy is sitting at your bar falling down drunk and orders one more for the road, are you going to serve him?


Your restaurant and bar analogies dont really do it for me so we can agree to disagree on this one. By your standards. TVG should only have ads and have sponsors from squeaky clean companies(good luck getting them to advertise on a horse racing channel) and broadcast tracks with really low takeouts, while ignoring potentially lucrative deals with ones with higher takeouts....TVG is a money making endeavour and just like every other coporation, the bottom line is making money and that is the case with every track in the country and every network in the country. Your standards for them are just unrealistic in my opinion.

Your "tainted food" example from before and your above example involving someone at a bar are really misguided in that with one, people are unaware of what is happening to them and in the other, their judgement is impaired. People who have TVG accounts are probably savvy enough to realize that the takeouts are high at Penn and can choose not to bet.

[KingChas]

PN ranks right up there with Great Lakes Downs and Fort Erie

What's next ? Timonium ?

Kalamazoo Downs.
Of course after they build it. :eek:
Of course it will supercede all major tracks. :D

[turfnsport]

People who have TVG accounts are probably savvy enough to realize that the takeouts are high at Penn and can choose not to bet.

Just a stab, but I am guessing that someone paying .25 for the honor of making a bet is probably not all that savvy.

[Relwob Owner]

Just a stab, but I am guessing that someone paying .25 for the honor of making a bet is probably not all that savvy.


Now that is a good point and that is a ridiculous fee....however, I still think that the majority of people who take it upon themselves to open up a personal account to wager from home have a better than average knowledge of the game....with the type of attitude implemented like the one taken at TVG for its sponsors and the tracks they present, there would be no gambling in this country at all, no bars, etc......if people are going to decide to gamble, they should do their research just like they should with any other investment vehicle, etc.....should we blame the stock market for having questionable companies on it that lead to people losing money? It just seems like everyone takes so many shots at companies while taking all of the personal responsibility away from the individual....the takeout rates are public knowledge and companies like cashcall are everywhere and if people didnt learn about them on TV, they would learn about them because many companies like that are just down the street.

[cj's dad]

Just a stab, but I am guessing that someone paying .25 for the honor of making a bet is probably not all that savvy.

For the 100th time, the max is $20 per month which is refunded once you wager $2,500 per calender month.

Pretty sure it comes out to about $.66 per day if you wager every day.

And, if you don't wager that much, or you don't have the $20 to spare, don't bet with TVG- it's not real complicated.

You can choose an alternative, such as driving to the track, possibly paying to park, admission fees, high concession prices etc... you know be SAVVY.

[NoCal Boy]

First and foremost TVG is a business that has to generate cash in order to survive. PENN is a perfect track for them. It is an evening venue attracting fuller fields now that purses are slots-infused. No one is forcing you to wager on any track. However, TVG, through Betfair, is now starting to make business decisions that make sense. The old exclusivity model is dead for all intents and purposes. TVG now shows races from NY, NJ, Ky, WVa, Louisiana, CA, MA and PA, along with harness from IL, NJ, Ontario and Ohio. Some high takeouts, some low takeouts. Understand that without sound besiness decisions there will be no TVG to show races. Take a look at Magna to see the results of unsound business decisions.

For the record, I have never used TVG. I use Youbet exclusively, as well as being a shareholder of Youbet so I have no reason to love TVG. But they are being much wiser nowadays. Good for them.


For the 100th time, the max is $20 per month which is refunded once you wager $2,500 per calender month.

Pretty sure it comes out to about $.66 per day if you wager every day.

And, if you don't wager that much, or you don't have the $20 to spare, don't bet with TVG- it's not real complicated.

You can choose an alternative, such as driving to the track, possibly paying to park, admission fees, high concession prices etc... you know be SAVVY.

[Canarsie]

Your restaurant and bar analogies dont really do it for me so we can agree to disagree on this one. By your standards. TVG should only have ads and have sponsors from squeaky clean companies(good luck getting them to advertise on a horse racing channel) and broadcast tracks with really low takeouts, while ignoring potentially lucrative deals with ones with higher takeouts....TVG is a money making endeavour and just like every other coporation, the bottom line is making money and that is the case with every track in the country and every network in the country. Your standards for them are just unrealistic in my opinion.

Your "tainted food" example from before and your above example involving someone at a bar are really misguided in that with one, people are unaware of what is happening to them and in the other, their judgement is impaired. People who have TVG accounts are probably savvy enough to realize that the takeouts are high at Penn and can choose not to bet.



I would bet my bottom dollar you would never frequent a restaurant that put a surcharge on your bill at least in the USA. Then again maybe the restaurant will offer surcharge less Wednesdays :lol:

Another example I can give is going to a restaurant in northern NJ near where I work. One the price of the steak is $30 and a few towns away it's $15 and just as tasty less the ambiance.. Also throw in the drinks are 50% less where are you going unless you are out to dress to impress.

I'm not knocking people who choose to have TVG accounts but to me a surcharge is equivalent to a "usury" fee.

[Imriledup]

Your restaurant and bar analogies dont really do it for me so we can agree to disagree on this one. By your standards. TVG should only have ads and have sponsors from squeaky clean companies(good luck getting them to advertise on a horse racing channel) and broadcast tracks with really low takeouts, while ignoring potentially lucrative deals with ones with higher takeouts....TVG is a money making endeavour and just like every other coporation, the bottom line is making money and that is the case with every track in the country and every network in the country. Your standards for them are just unrealistic in my opinion.

Your "tainted food" example from before and your above example involving someone at a bar are really misguided in that with one, people are unaware of what is happening to them and in the other, their judgement is impaired. People who have TVG accounts are probably savvy enough to realize that the takeouts are high at Penn and can choose not to bet.

So you are saying that companies should do ANYTHING they can to make every last dollar? I don't know about you, but i have a conscience, i wouldn't be able to 'serve that last drink' when i knew my customer was in bad shape.

[harcapper]

Finally we see some folks defending TVG.

It is what it is. A business that is in business to turn a profit. Also a vehicle designed to expose the previously unexposed to horse racing. They do a pretty good job of that in my opinion.

Although they offer generic and basic handicapping compared to us seasoned veterans, it is likely great info for the newbie. Their human and equine interest stories and specials that they do are well presented imo. The diverse commentators and handicappers give most every audience member someone to like and someone not to like. I personally do not give a rats butt if they are showing a track with a 25% three horse wager or a 28% three horse wager because I am not a newbie.

When the newbie becomes educated and moves on to finding tracks that offer better takeout numbers (which they should) we should be glad that TVG is around to help attract new horseplayers and owners to the sport.

[Relwob Owner]

So you are saying that companies should do ANYTHING they can to make every last dollar? I don't know about you, but i have a conscience, i wouldn't be able to 'serve that last drink' when i knew my customer was in bad shape.


Please see post #33.....he said it best and better than I could. I dont think that companes should do anything necessary to make every last dollar.....however, I dont think that broadcasting a higher than normal takeout track and having a sponsor that is a high interest lender(whose owner actually throws millions into the sport) is comparable to serving someone too much at a restaurant.......if you have this sort of bleeding heart attitude,how do you justify your participation in the sport? The kinds of negative things that TVG supposedly represents and supports in your opinion are all over racing and given your strong opinion, I cant see how you would want to participate as a bettor.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=harcapper]Finally we see some folks defending TVG.

It is what it is. A business that is in business to turn a profit. Also a vehicle designed to expose the previously unexposed to horse racing. They do a pretty good job of that in my opinion.

Although they offer generic and basic handicapping compared to us seasoned veterans, it is likely great info for the newbie. Their human and equine interest stories and specials that they do are well presented imo. The diverse commentators and handicappers give most every audience member someone to like and someone not to like. I personally do not give a rats butt if they are showing a track with a 25% three horse wager or a 28% three horse wager because I am not a newbie.

When the newbie becomes educated and moves on to finding tracks that offer better takeout numbers (which they should) we should be glad that TVG is around to help attract new horseplayers and owners to the sport.[/QUOTE


Well put, in my opinion

[Imriledup]

Please see post #33.....he said it best and better than I could. I dont think that companes should do anything necessary to make every last dollar.....however, I dont think that broadcasting a higher than normal takeout track and having a sponsor that is a high interest lender(whose owner actually throws millions into the sport) is comparable to serving someone too much at a restaurant.......if you have this sort of bleeding heart attitude,how do you justify your participation in the sport? The kinds of negative things that TVG supposedly represents and supports in your opinion are all over racing and given your strong opinion, I cant see how you would want to participate as a bettor.

I feel TVG should show the races that the public most wants to see. Penn National has been proven to allow past posting and also has an embarrassingly high takeout. The public doesn't want to see Penn Nat yet TVG forces it down the player's throat. Same thing with Los Al, people don't want to see that garbage, its not even thoroughbred racing, what's next, Flagler kennel Club?

As far as a high interest lender goes, its the same thing as a loan shark, its predatory.

[harcapper]

I feel TVG should show the races that the public most wants to see. Penn National has been proven to allow past posting and also has an embarrassingly high takeout. The public doesn't want to see Penn Nat yet TVG forces it down the player's throat. Same thing with Los Al, people don't want to see that garbage, its not even thoroughbred racing, what's next, Flagler kennel Club?

As far as a high interest lender goes, its the same thing as a loan shark, its predatory.

We all have opinions as to what TVG should do but we must keep in mind that they are a business trying to turn a profit just like any other business. In a perfect world TVG would show the public what it most wants to see and would avoid tracks with higher takeouts.

I have read the complaints about high takeouts here but have often heard their commentators sell the pools at tracks where the takeouts are reduced. One example that stands out are the 15% takeouts that some tracks were offering on their pick 4 pools.

To rebut the Cash Call complainers, TVG also regularly shows GA info during the day.

Regarding your comments about Los Al and their Quarter Horse presentation, keep in mind that I am a Harness guy. TVG almost never shows a harness race live and aside from the Big M Friday and Saturday cards, they do not show the public what we would want.

I don't complain because I have come to appreciate TVG for what it is and think that they do a good job of presenting horse racing to the general public. IMO they do a better job then HRTV.

A serious capper should by now have moved on to RTN and fyi the RTN website has announced that they have reached an agreement with Dish Network and will be offering all North American Track for $50 per month as an add on to their standard services. I assume that Canada BEV TV will have this as well.

[Relwob Owner]

I feel TVG should show the races that the public most wants to see. Penn National has been proven to allow past posting and also has an embarrassingly high takeout. The public doesn't want to see Penn Nat yet TVG forces it down the player's throat. Same thing with Los Al, people don't want to see that garbage, its not even thoroughbred racing, what's next, Flagler kennel Club?

As far as a high interest lender goes, its the same thing as a loan shark, its predatory.

Oh well, I guess we just agree to disagree on this one

[LottaKash]

I use Youbet for all my wagering and viewing needs....They supply everything I need ....I like that...:jump:

tvg, is irrelevant to me....

best,

[speed]

For the 100th time, the max is $20 per month which is refunded once you wager $2,500 per calender month.

Pretty sure it comes out to about $.66 per day if you wager every day.

And, if you don't wager that much, or you don't have the $20 to spare, don't bet with TVG- it's not real complicated.

You can choose an alternative, such as driving to the track, possibly paying to park, admission fees, high concession prices etc... you know be SAVVY.

When there are many adw who charge nothing to make a wager is the point i believe.

[cj's dad]

Then those constantly complaining should use them. And BTW, how many other ADW's provide TV coverage??

[toetoe]

It is what it is.


AAARGH !!! :( (:Wincing, bleeding from ears.)

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Then those constantly complaining should use them. And BTW, how many other ADW's provide TV coverage??

Are you serious?

That's the problem.

They are promoting tracks with larcenous takeout. Most of the people who bet with them are unaware of takeout. Their showing and promotion of these tracks will expose them to a whole new unaware audience which will cause their handle to rise.

In a year or two when HANA or an industry leader really pushes for reduced takeout, the tracks will say "Takeout doesn't matter. Penn National and Woodbine are up 15%, we are down 15% and our takeout is 5%-10% lower. There is no way we are lowering takeout."

Can you understand that or is foresight not in your vocabulary?

[cj's dad]

Are you serious?

That's the problem.

They are promoting tracks with larcenous takeout. Most of the people who bet with them are unaware of takeout. Their showing and promotion of these tracks will expose them to a whole new unaware audience which will cause their handle to rise.

In a year or two when HANA or an industry leader really pushes for reduced takeout, the tracks will say "Takeout doesn't matter. Penn National and Woodbine are up 15%, we are down 15% and our takeout is 5%-10% lower. There is no way we are lowering takeout."

Can you understand that or is foresight not in your vocabulary?

So where do you wager? At what tracks do you so generously spread your wealth around. must be one that has 10% across the board takeouts.

Yes I'm serious and I do pick and choose where I bet. Besides it's my money and I am not responsible where others wager their GD money. And yes I am glad that there is a TVG and HRTV available where i live. Others can sign up for the new network and pony up their $50 a month fee- good for them- that is their choice and yes I'm serious. I'm soooo disappointed that I am not as informed and savvy as you are.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

So where do you wager? At what tracks do you so generously spread your wealth around. must be one that has 10% across the board takeouts.

Yes I'm serious and I do pick and choose where I bet. Besides it's my money and I am not responsible where others wager their GD money. And yes I am glad that there is a TVG and HRTV available where i live. Others can sign up for the new network and pony up their $50 a month fee- good for them- that is their choice and yes I'm serious. I'm soooo disappointed that I am not as informed and savvy as you are.

Great to know where you stand.

TVG has always stated they represent all facets of horse racing.....tracks, horses, owners, trainers, bettors, etc......well in this case they are failing.

I feel sick that they are representing me as an owner, breeder and most important...bettor.

[cj's dad]

But they do not represent you, me or anyone else any more than the corner grocery store represents you. They are a business. As an owner, but for yourself and maybe your family who exactly do you represent? Certainly not the bettor.

My God, this TVG issue has been beat to death. Hint- don't watch and wager- use whatever account suits you.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Hint- don't watch and wager- use whatever account suits you.

Sharp as a tack! :bang:

[cj's dad]

Always with the insults and never really address the comments. Your loss not mine.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Always with the insults and never really address the comments. Your loss not mine.

How can I address the comment?

You are talking about something that has nothing to do with anything I am talking about.

It's almost as if you aren't reading my posts but know it's a TVG thread so you go on TVG response auto-pilot.

[fmolf]

How can I address the comment?

You are talking about something that has nothing to do with anything I am talking about.

It's almost as if you aren't reading my posts but know it's a TVG thread so you go on TVG response auto-pilot.
This is america and in the american business world american business does what is best for american business and its shareholders.Let the buyer beware as far as wagering goes.Their are lots of people out there that do not care what something costs.If they need it and want it they buy it.Is a stockbroker who peddles stocks and bonds that he makes the biggest commision on doing the wrong thing?Maybe he is but this is how american business is conducted.I have no preoblem with what tvg is doing.I do not bet with them but enjoy their coverage of the races.

[Relwob Owner]

This is america and in the american business world american business does what is best for american business and its shareholders.Let the buyer beware as far as wagering goes.Their are lots of people out there that do not care what something costs.If they need it and want it they buy it.Is a stockbroker who peddles stocks and bonds that he makes the biggest commision on doing the wrong thing?Maybe he is but this is how american business is conducted.I have no preoblem with what tvg is doing.I do not bet with them but enjoy their coverage of the races.


Amen to that.....I am just glad there are networks that still are dedicated to horse racing

[Tampa Russ]

Okay. I've read all 53 posts. It was like that movie that reached the end, but had no ending.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I'm overmatched.

I think I'll switch sides.

When Penn National and Woodbine handle numbers are up, I'm going to spoon feed Fred Pope a report showing how higher takeout tracks are thriving and raising takeout makes more money for the tracks and owners than lowering takeout.

[Dave Schwartz]

When Penn National and Woodbine handle numbers are up, I'm going to spoon feed Fred Pope a report showing how higher takeout tracks are thriving and raising takeout makes more money for the tracks and owners than lowering takeout.

Inside,

With all due respect, nobody (least of the the tracks) cares about this.

See, one thing that is missing from this argument about track takes - something that I am all for, btw, is the tracks' position. I can only assume that the reason they have not lowered takeouts is because they do not agree with our position that it would increase handle.

I had a conversation a couple of years ago with a track exec and we spoke on this very topic. When I asked him what he thought about the impact of lowering takeout, he said that what is being left out of the equation was "the speed of money." He said that while it is true that the bettor's money will churn longer, (which is a good thing for both the track and the bettor) it also churns the track's income much slower.

He went on to explain that if the track gets twice as much money but takes three times as long to get it, then it is not good for the track.

He also said that the entire prolong-the-churn concept also ignores the fact that when most regular players go broke they simply go get more money. So, the truth is that the speed at which the go broke does not really impact the track as much as losing players altogether. That is the only real concern the tracks have.

One other thing he said that caught my ear was that a significant reduction in takeout would disturb the tracks' business model to the point that ceasing operation would be the only logical option.

When I asked him how takes could be lowered, he said only with a signfiicant increase in handle first; "significant" meaning like doubling handle.


Understand that if the tracks rolled takeout back (say) 5% I (personally) would be at about 9% profit, with a play in almost every I choose to handicap race, so I am all for it. However, the reality is that it probably cannot happen.

Our best hope for a psuedo-reduction in takeout is a rebate program that rewards the more significant players - not at the whale level but say the $40-100 per race player.


Recently my wife and I went through local casinos looking for a place to play. I spoke to several racebook managers, describing myself as a less-than-big player who would be consistently making "medium-sized" bets of about $40 per race but that I would likey place 50-80 such bets per day. I was amazed at how big his eyes got. Next thing I know the casino manager is on the spot and they are honestly asking me what I want and need. Of course, rebates are off the table as it is against Nevada law, but 4% comps is a nice place to start.

I continued by telling them what changes I needed in the race book; three reserved seats with plugs for laptops and a free wi-fi connection. They called last week and told me that the wi-fi is in and the power should be ready by Wednesday.


So, I am a $40 bettor. Of course, the casino looks at total handle and $2k per day (i.e. $500k per year) is a worthwhile player.

My point in telling this story is that the track needs to see the $40-per-race, $400-per-day player as a "significant enough" player to get a small rebate. They don't.


In closing, IMHO, beating the drum of takeout reduction is a total waste of time in this current economic situation. (It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong - it ain't gonna happen!) Instead, our efforts should be in getting tracks to see that the "bigger-than-average bettors" should get a rebate (which IS, of course, a reduction in takeout) while the lesser player continues to pay the long price. Furthermore, paying this rebate on a daily basis, with special bonuses for actually being at the track, wagering on a non-feature race, staying for the last race... all these open up a world of new and innovative marketing ideas for the track that would actually stimulate handle today.


Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[pandy]

I like TVG but I can't understand why they don't show more races. Again this weekend they didn't show any races from Philly Park, one of my favorite tracks, and while the first race was going off they were doing that ridiculous Pick 6 central.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Dave,

Why can't the slot subsidized tracks lower takeout without it affecting their bottom line?

Let's just say KY got slots and it increased their purses by 40%.....you don't think it would be prudent for them to lower takeout so that the slot subsidy would cushion the short-lived takeout blow?

The takeout reduction isn't an immediate fix. It gives the sport a chance to survive in the future. Just think of all the players that have left because they couldn't win, but if takeout was lowered, they might still be betting. If people are winning, the winning fever spreads and new people get involved. With no winners, racing has no chance.

[turfnsport]

My God, this TVG issue has been beat to death. Hint- don't watch and wager- use whatever account suits you.

My main objection with this TVG model is the high takeout tracks, the .25 cent wager fee, and the idiotic Pick 4 and Pick 6 hysteria COMBINED is a recipe for disaster for ANY new player that comes along and opens up a TVG account.

The chance of a newbie who deposits a small amount like $200-$300 and is a $10-$20 bettor is going to go bust QUICKLY, and likley never to return.

They will be back playing poker and betting sports before you can say, "Speed and fade" or "diseased" or "CARRYOVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[fmolf]

My main objection with this TVG model is the high takeout tracks, the .25 cent wager fee, and the idiotic Pick 4 and Pick 6 hysteria COMBINED is a recipe for disaster for ANY new player that comes along and opens up a TVG account.

The chance of a newbie who deposits a small amount like $200-$300 and is a $10-$20 bettor is going to go bust QUICKLY, and likley never to return.

They will be back playing poker and betting sports before you can say, "Speed and fade" or "diseased" or "CARRYOVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
i'm not saying i like the fact that they show penn national and woodbine but i am defending their right to in a free trade society.I choose to bet other tracks at other venues myself.Somedya they will learn that lowereing the takeout will make them more competitive to the average gambler and also making racing more accessible such as night racing...like penn national

[Dave Schwartz]

Let's just say KY got slots and it increased their purses by 40%.....you don't think it would be prudent for them to lower takeout so that the slot subsidy would cushion the short-lived takeout blow?

Insider,

One thing has very little to do with the other. That is kind of like saying, "Our business just got a boost from a new revnue source. Let's lower prices everywhere else so that people will enjoy our services more."

While it is a benevolent idea, it is not like the tracks with slots are "rolling in dough." These are still tough economic times for everyone. That includes HorseStreet, btw. We will be re-inventing ourselves in the near future.

One more thing... the biggest demanders of increase are the horsemen. They like to say that without them there is no game. (Sound familiar?)


Dave

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Insider,

One thing has very little to do with the other. That is kind of like saying, "Our business just got a boost from a new revnue source. Let's lower prices everywhere else so that people will enjoy our services more."

While it is a benevolent idea, it is not like the tracks with slots are "rolling in dough." These are still tough economic times for everyone. That includes HorseStreet, btw. We will be re-inventing ourselves in the near future.

One more thing... the biggest demanders of increase are the horsemen. They like to say that without them there is no game. (Sound familiar?)


Dave

There are a lot of slot tracks that over half of purses are slot money.

Presque Isle is 90%+ slot money.

Are you saying if Presque Isle lowered their takeout to 10% across the board, it would kill them?

How hard would it be for them to lower their takeout to 10% and double their daily handle of $300,000? With only 10% of tha bet on track, it wouldn't even hurt them because 90% of their money is offtrack.

[Dave Schwartz]

The problem is that if they drop their take they immediately lose the rebate players' money. At some of those tracks their money is 30% (or more) of the handle.

So, in order to "double their handle" they have to almost triple the handle.

Dave

[InsideThePylons-MW]

The problem is that if they drop their take they immediately lose the rebate players' money. At some of those tracks their money is 30% (or more) of the handle.

So, in order to "double their handle" they have to almost triple the handle.

Dave

Presque Isle has no significant rebate handle.

So that point is mute on this example.

On other tracks losing rebate handle, we've already had this discussion. 10% across the board handle would be overall better for rebate players in the long run. I know it would be for me, and I fit the profile.

All of the major tracks now charge 8% for their signals. That eliminates any possible argument that those would lose rebate handle at 10% takeout across the board. Some of the smaller tracks that charge 3%-5% for their signal might lose some, but the overall handle bump would crush that loss.

[Dave Schwartz]

Presque Isle has no significant rebate handle.

And you know that how?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

And you know that how?


Because their avg handle is 300K per day.

No significant rebate bettor can bet, or take the time to bet, when you have that low of an amount scattered in numerous pools which make all of them insignificant.

2 of the 4 major rebate shops don't take it.

[Imriledup]

The funny thing is that TVG tries to pretend they are an educational channel who has every intent to teach newbies the game. They have Fandicapping where racing insiders come on and answer questions from fans, they have pick 6 central where they go over the races with experts and try and dispense nuggets to the public and so on. All they would have to do is tell their public to not bet Penn National trifectas and try your hardest to stay away from the 26% tri takeout at Saratoga and that piece of advice would go longer than Mr B's 126 dollar pick 6 play. As Smart as Mr B is and as good as his information happens to be, letting the fans know to NOT play Penn National (or any Pennsylvania track for that matter) would be more valuable than any selection that any of their experts could give out.

Is TVG being disingenuous by 'hiding' the takeout rates from their fans while, at the same time, trying like heck to help the player with informative guests and programming? Seems like a catch 22.

We want you to be good, but not good enough to know that betting Tri's at Penn Nat is equivalent to bungee jumping off a 200 foot platform with a 201 foot bungee cord.

[Dave Schwartz]

Insider,

Can't argue with that logic.

Of course, what would be the point of talking about it then? Brown County Fair is also up for takeout rollback, but who cares?


Dave

[harcapper]

Great to know where you stand.

TVG has always stated they represent all facets of horse racing.....tracks, horses, owners, trainers, bettors, etc......well in this case they are failing.

I feel sick that they are representing me as an owner, breeder and most important...bettor.

ITP,

TVG claims that they present all facets of horse racing. I have never heard them make the statement that they represent horse racing.

I personally feel that you are giving TVG for more credit for their financial influence on the pools then is the reality. I know not one regular serious player/handicapper that uses TVG's services for other then to watch races they have wagered on in high def. This should explain to you why I comment that once a newbie learns the game a bit better that they move on.

Your statement above mentions that you participate in all facets of the game (owner, breeder, bettor) but places your greatest importance on you the bettor. That said, lets move this topic to what is more likely doing the most damage to the industry which is non-pooled wagers or offshore money. The amount of money that never hits the pools far outweighs the piddly difference that TVG sucks into the higher takeout tracks.

As an owner ask yourself how many other owners that you know who regularly use offshore services? I know several whales who fire their daily dose into offshore services and even lowering takeouts to 20% across the board is not going to bring them back.

[cj's dad]

My main objection with this TVG model is the high takeout tracks, the .25 cent wager fee, and the idiotic Pick 4 and Pick 6 hysteria COMBINED is a recipe for disaster for ANY new player that comes along and opens up a TVG account.

The chance of a newbie who deposits a small amount like $200-$300 and is a $10-$20 bettor is going to go bust QUICKLY, and likley never to return.

They will be back playing poker and betting sports before you can say, "Speed and fade" or "diseased" or "CARRYOVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Please read post #32

[cj]

The problem is that if they drop their take they immediately lose the rebate players' money. At some of those tracks their money is 30% (or more) of the handle.

So, in order to "double their handle" they have to almost triple the handle.

Dave

Why would a rebate player quit because he lost his rebate. What difference does it make if he plays an 18% take with and 8% rebate, or gets a straight 10% take and bigger pools to bet into? I would think the latter is preferable.

[WinterTriangle]

Both Commentator and Big Drama have run there this year, they have big fields and big purses. They still struggle to get races off on time, which cause some issues for HRTV as they cover them.

Smarty Jones babies running there, too. (Smarty Marty, August 6th).

I don't wager CT. I tend to win at Penn and find that studying the trainers and jocks that do well there yields pretty consistent results, for some reason.

I have no choice about TVG, since I have Direct TV. That's all they offer. Dish offers HRTV where I am.

[castaway01]

Presque Isle has no significant rebate handle.

So that point is mute on this example.

On other tracks losing rebate handle, we've already had this discussion. 10% across the board handle would be overall better for rebate players in the long run. I know it would be for me, and I fit the profile.

All of the major tracks now charge 8% for their signals. That eliminates any possible argument that those would lose rebate handle at 10% takeout across the board. Some of the smaller tracks that charge 3%-5% for their signal might lose some, but the overall handle bump would crush that loss.

What would happen to any major track that cuts its takeout to 10% is that it would be dropped by every racetrack and ADW in the country. It happened to Keeneland when they cut the take to 16% on some bets---how do you figure these tracks and ADWs would let a track drop their takeout to 10%? That point is far from moot.

Another problem is a lack of success in the past with these experiments. When Ellis cut its Pick 4 takeout to 4%, the handle on that bet rose 82%. This is substantial but not the 500% that would be needed to make up the difference (actually more than that because Ellis waived its host fee so ADWs would keep carrying the track). Laurel also tried a takeout rate of 11.34% for a meet and their handle went DOWN because they got dropped by some carriers. I agree that Presque Isle would be a place to try it, but the lack of clear success thus far makes it a tough sell to people afraid to change.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

What would happen to any major track that cuts its takeout to 10% is that it would be dropped by every racetrack and ADW in the country. It happened to Keeneland when they cut the take to 16% on some bets---how do you figure these tracks and ADWs would let a track drop their takeout to 10%? .

That's why I say "RACING" has to lower takeout.

All tracks/ADW's (RACING) must agree to do "business as usual" with a track that lowers it's takeout to 10%. Everybody takes the signal and uses the results of the let's say a year long project to see how handle increase and the demand for the product.

I see you edited the mute/moot nonsense....well played

[Imriledup]

Why would a rebate player quit because he lost his rebate. What difference does it make if he plays an 18% take with and 8% rebate, or gets a straight 10% take and bigger pools to bet into? I would think the latter is preferable.

Because playing into a 10 pct take with no rebate is not as good. The reason its not as good is because the bettor only 'takes advantage of' that low takeout when he wins his bet. Rebate players take advantage of their 'low takeout' on every race, win or lose.

[WinterTriangle]

The funny thing is that TVG tries to pretend they are an educational channel who has every intent to teach newbies the game. They have Fandicapping where racing insiders come on and answer questions from fans, they have pick 6 central where they go over the races with experts and try and dispense nuggets to the public and so on.

I kinda don't feel sorry for lazy people, in any realm, who listen to pundits rather than do their own homework. Handicapping and learning racing is WORK. You have to spend time observing, evaluating, and studying.

Its no different than listening to talk-show radio or TV pundits *feeding* people political opinions.......do the research and form your OWN opinion, after applying CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS. (a soon-to-be-extinct concept).

Forumulate your own opinion, and then relay it in your own words. I have little patience with regurgitation, and I see it everywhere.

Pundits are useful for some stray piece of information I might not have or that I hadn't given enough thought to.

"Education" is an active, not passive, concept. It requires work on the part of the end-user. Brainwashing is the opposite, LOL

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Throw in a little Suffolk (HANA grade F) and Assiniboia (HANA grade F) on TVG's televised menu today.

[Whodoyalike?]

My cable provider just added TVG and HRTV. I watched both for the first time this weekend, and have to admit, they both put me to sleep. Does one network have an advantage over another, or should I keep watching the internet feed from my favorite track?

[cj]

Because playing into a 10 pct take with no rebate is not as good. The reason its not as good is because the bettor only 'takes advantage of' that low takeout when he wins his bet. Rebate players take advantage of their 'low takeout' on every race, win or lose.

I would disagree with this. If I bet $1,000,000 a year into a 20% takeout and lose 5%, but get an 10% rebate, I now have a +5% edge on the game and win $50,000.

If I bet that same million into a 10% takeout, I'm not going to lose 5% any longer, I'm going to win about 5% without a rebate. Perhaps I will lose a little more due to breakage, but wouldn't that more than be made up for by being able to bet into bigger pools? Now, if pools don't increase, unlikely but possible, I might make slightly less than 5%, but the difference won't be very great.

[turfnsport]

Please read post #32

I did.

How many newbies that open accounts at TVG are betting more than $2500 a month?

My guess is not very many, so they are being taxed an extra $20 a month on top of getting to watch high takeout tracks like Penn and Woodbine.

Maybe you need to go back and read post #60 again and attempt to be savvy enough to understand it.

Under these cirumstances, it makes it nearly impossible for a newbie to survive.

[Relwob Owner]

I did.

How many newbies that open accounts at TVG are betting more than $2500 a month?

My guess is not very many, so they are being taxed an extra $20 a month on top of getting to watch high takeout tracks like Penn and Woodbine.

Maybe you need to go back and read post #60 again and attempt to be savvy enough to understand it.

Under these cirumstances, it makes it nearly impossible for a newbie to survive.



Who, exactly, is making them bet at Penn and Woodbine? Is there some agreement where people who sign up for TVG are obligated to bet at the high takeout tracks? Nope......example-someone rolls into Atlantic City, plays one of the games with particularly poor odds and loses.....this is the casino's fault???? I know you contend that the person will lose and then look for something else to do and wont get into racing....well, the would probably do the same thing after losing at one of the regular takeout tracks as well.


Plus, if a newbie isnt betting more than 2500 a month, they wont feel the percentage of the higher takeout as much....they are just as likely to lose and leave at a low takeout track as a high takeout one

[speed]

I am at Churchill Downs every day and they have a bank where u can make TVG deposits so i asked the tellers what the average deposit is and was told around 50 bucks. So i am guessing they dont churn 2500 monthly.

[turfnsport]

Who, exactly, is making them bet at Penn and Woodbine? Is there some agreement where people who sign up for TVG are obligated to bet at the high takeout tracks? Nope......example-someone rolls into Atlantic City, plays one of the games with particularly poor odds and loses.....this is the casino's fault???? I know you contend that the person will lose and then look for something else to do and wont get into racing....well, the would probably do the same thing after losing at one of the regular takeout tracks as well.


<B>Plus, if a newbie isnt betting more than 2500 a month, they wont feel the percentage of the higher takeout as much....they are just as likely to lose and leave at a low takeout track as a high takeout one</B>

All I can say to this ignorant thinking is re read post #60 :bang:

[Relwob Owner]

All I can say to this ignorant thinking is re read post #60 :bang:


The mark of a smart person is often his/her ability to debate and disagree with someone without taking a shot at their intelligence or resorting to name calling......what that says about you is clear.

Referring to your own post that has already been disagreed with or debated really makes no sense. Go to post number 77 as I feel like that is a pretty good way of looking at it.

Best of luck to you

[turfnsport]

The mark of a smart person is often his/her ability to debate and disagree with someone without taking a shot at their intelligence or resorting to name calling......what that says about you is clear.

Referring to your own post that has already been disagreed with or debated really makes no sense. Go to post number 77 as I feel like that is a pretty good way of looking at it.

Best of luck to you

Let me try one last time to get my point across to you: :bang:
TVG has a lot of handle, and it ain't coming from whales or anyone that wagers a significant amount of money. That means they have a lot of guppies and newbies betting with them.

When TVG shows Woodbine instead of Belmont Park, glorifies $48 Pick 4 and $120 Pick 6 tickets, and Penn National at night, you don't think that makes an impression with the newbies and guppies?

Would it not be great if TVG put the emphasis on Win wagers at a 16% clip rather than Pick 4's at 26% or tris at 31%?

Don't you think the newbies bankroll would last a lot longer at 16% than 31%?

Don't you think a newbie might pick up on the game more if he cashed 20-25% of time with win wagers as opposed to 2% on Pick 4's?

My point in post #60 is you can't bring a new guy into the game, tax him at 26-31%, toss in another .25 per wager, and tell him the road to riches is to play the Pick 6.

99.9% of them will go broke, and go broke quickly.

[Relwob Owner]

Let me try one last time to get my point across to you: :bang:
TVG has a lot of handle, and it ain't coming from whales or anyone that wagers a significant amount of money. That means they have a lot of guppies and newbies betting with them.

When TVG shows Woodbine instead of Belmont Park, glorifies $48 Pick 4 and $120 Pick 6 tickets, and Penn National at night, you don't think that makes an impression with the newbies and guppies?

Would it not be great if TVG put the emphasis on Win wagers at a 16% clip rather than Pick 4's at 26% or tris at 31%?

Don't you think the newbies bankroll would last a lot longer at 16% than 31%?

Don't you think a newbie might pick up on the game more if he cashed 20-25% of time with win wagers as opposed to 2% on Pick 4's?

My point in post #60 is you can't bring a new guy into the game, tax him at 26-31%, toss in another .25 per wager, and tell him the road to riches is to play the Pick 6.

99.9% of them will go broke, and go broke quickly.


You got your point across-I just dont agree with it and your head banging animations are annoying....first, you say that TVG has a lot of handle and it isnt coming from whales. Where is your proof of this? Do you have insights into the account levels and balances of individual TVG account holders?

They can broadcast any track they want and it is up to people to decide where they want to bet. If someone rolls through 2 or 3 hundred at any track, no matter what the takeout, do you think they would be a candidate for the long term anyways? Probably not.....

As far as them advertising Pick 4's and Pick 6's, that is what they are supposed to do in order to increase the handle at the tracks they have agreements with and to increase their own handle....what is wrong with that? It is called business.....in every business, you try and sell your most profitable product and it is up to the consumer to make the decision what to do...we agree to disagree on this, I respect your opinion and will mpove on....best of luck to ya

[turfnsport]

As far as them advertising Pick 4's and Pick 6's, that is what they are supposed to do in order to increase the handle at the tracks they have agreements with and to increase their own handle....what is wrong with that?

You don't increase handle by advertising the wagers with the highest takeout rates.

[Relwob Owner]

You don't increase handle by advertising the wagers with the highest takeout rates.


Uh, yeah they do....Pick 4's and Pick 6 bets, which I referred to, are generally going to be bigger tickets, therefore increasing the handle. Also bets with higher takeout rates are more profitable, so they obviously advertise them more.

Like I said, we agree to disagree so just move on man. Your argument doesnt make sense to me and your tone is annoying so best of luck to ya....

[turfnsport]

Uh, yeah they do....Pick 4's and Pick 6 bets, which I referred to, are generally going to be bigger tickets, therefore increasing the handle. Also bets with higher takeout rates are more profitable, so they obviously advertise them more.

Like I said, we agree to disagree so just move on man. Your argument doesnt make sense to me and your tone is annoying so best of luck to ya....


Maybe you can get these cute little girls to teach you about churn.

http://www.cedarcreekgristmill.com/dutch_oven_butter_churning/young_ladies_at_butter_churn.jpg

[speed]

Uh, yeah they do....Pick 4's and Pick 6 bets, which I referred to, are generally going to be bigger tickets, therefore increasing the handle. Also bets with higher takeout rates are more profitable, so they obviously advertise them more.

Like I said, we agree to disagree so just move on man. Your argument doesnt make sense to me and your tone is annoying so best of luck to ya....

The average TVG player does not have the bankroll to play these tickets. If they do play and lose many of them are likely done for the day. But if you have them playing 5 bucks win and place i believe they would churn a much greater handle.

Either way i am thankful we have these horse racing channels. For no monthly charge we can watch all the races from across the country.

[NJ Stinks]

Either way i am thankful we have these horse racing channels. For no monthly charge we can watch all the races from across the country.

Speed, my comments below may not be applicable to you so no offense intended.

Just for the record (and just in case someone from the DISH Network reads this), I have chosen DISH as my TV provider because I can watch HRTV and TVG on DISH. I pay the monthly charge for the DISH equipment and signal so I don't consider myself getting anything for free.

[speed]

Speed, my comments below may not be applicable to you so no offense intended.

Just for the record (and just in case someone from the DISH Network reads this), I have chosen DISH as my TV provider because I can watch HRTV and TVG on DISH. I pay the monthly charge for the DISH equipment and signal so I don't consider myself getting anything for free.


So if there was no horse racing you would have no cable. Therefore saving on that expense. I can respect that.

[chickenhead]

They can broadcast any track they want and it is up to people to decide where they want to bet.

Of course they can, no one is disputing their right to do whatever they want -- that is tangential to the discussion. In response to their programming decisions, people are free to voice the opinion that what they are doing is not good for the long term health of the game. Both of those things can be true.

If you believe high takeouts are bad for the game, as many people do, then the promotion of high takeout tracks (or bets) at the expense of the promotion of low takeout tracks and bets (it's a zero sum game, there is only so much air time) by the most visible promoter of racing is a negative for the game.

It's a simple and valid argument.

[BillW]

In response to their programming decisions, people are free to voice the opinion that what they are doing is not good for the long term health of the game.

And I'll bet that voicing those opinions directly to the TVG e-mail box and phone lines would be a lot more effective that posting on paceadvantage. While some at TVG probably read PA I'm sure they pay closer attention to their own lines of communication. In reading this thread, I don't get the sense that this is happening.

[Marshall Bennett]

Now with their community website they need not look any further , including here , to hear those voices of discontent . Talk about a cyber-butchering of network heads . :)

[cj's dad]

Maybe you can get these cute little girls to teach you about churn.

http://www.cedarcreekgristmill.com/dutch_oven_butter_churning/young_ladies_at_butter_churn.jpg

Those newbies and guppies depositing $50 a pop at Churchill or on line sure do contribute to the "churn" Yeah right !!

[turfnsport]

Those newbies and guppies depositing $50 a pop at Churchill or on line sure do contribute to the "churn" Yeah right !!

THAT'S MY POINT.

These newbies are not getting a chance to contribute to the churn and handle for the reasons I stated in post #60.

Thanks!!!

[WinterTriangle]

TVG has always stated they represent all facets of horse racing.....tracks, horses, owners, trainers, bettors, etc......

..and most important...bettor.


Quite frankly, I'd like to see them give a little time to another important aspect of horse racing.....

IMHO, Alex Brown put it well: "We should start caring. For we, I mean the horseracing industry. As it stands now, the majority of work in the retirement area of our stars is being done by those outside of the industry.........Our horses serve us, whether in sports, work or leisure. We simply should not betray them at the end of their lives for a couple of bucks......."

To me, there is nothing more important than the actual welfare of the equine itself, around which all this *other stuff* is based.

Tracking old war horses running in low level claimers, programs where connections of a horse can say the horse cannot go to slaughter, and just a lot more thought and energy going toward RETIREMENT PLANS for these horses, etc. The higher takeouts, the betting service fees, etc. always seem to go into human pockets, so, it makes little difference to me which big pockets get the money when the horse itself is left in need. :rolleyes:

That most efforts in rescue and retirement is being done by those outside our industry......a hugely profitable industry........is really disgraceful. Let somebody else do it sort of mentality.

[joanied]

Quite frankly, I'd like to see them give a little time to another important aspect of horse racing.....

IMHO, Alex Brown put it well: "We should start caring. For we, I mean the horseracing industry. As it stands now, the majority of work in the retirement area of our stars is being done by those outside of the industry.........Our horses serve us, whether in sports, work or leisure. We simply should not betray them at the end of their lives for a couple of bucks......."

To me, there is nothing more important than the actual welfare of the equine itself, around which all this *other stuff* is based.

Tracking old war horses running in low level claimers, programs where connections of a horse can say the horse cannot go to slaughter, and just a lot more thought and energy going toward RETIREMENT PLANS for these horses, etc. The higher takeouts, the betting service fees, etc. always seem to go into human pockets, so, it makes little difference to me which big pockets get the money when the horse itself is left in need. :rolleyes:

That most efforts in rescue and retirement is being done by those outside our industry......a hugely profitable industry........is really disgraceful. Let somebody else do it sort of mentality.

:ThmbUp: While we bitch and moan about what tracks TVG is airing, and whether or not we like a certain commentator ect ect...Winter Triangle makes an excellent point...what are the likes of TVG and HRTV doing for the welfare of the horses...as far as I can see, not much, and that is pathetic...after all, you don't need to be Einstien to know that the horses themselves are what this sport is all about...
no doubt many of you beleive that horse racing is about handicapping...and I suppose some folks that handicap, rather than being just a 'fan', simply do not think of the horses as anything more than something to bet on...and I hope those folks are few and far between...
we have, as a whole, spoken our outrage over breakdowns and the safety of the horses, mentioned retirment facilities/organizations and at times like the horror of the Ernie Paragallo mess makes the headlines, we post our outrage, opinions, ideas about the subject of horse welfare...

I agree that TVG and HRTV should devote some time, energy and money to horse welfare...about the only time I have ever seen anything on horse welfare from these channels is during a show like 'Inside Information', when they run a story about one of the retirement organizations and highlight a facility or two...
but if TVG (and HRTV) would use even 5 minutes of air time, several times a day during their air time, at least that would get the message out...we need to help the horses, the organizations that are devoted to giving these horses a decent life after racing...I would also think that TVG/HRTV could run web site addresses to the equine retirement facilities and ask for donations...
directly within the industry, there are numerous things that could be done to help the horses...I know some tracks will not allow the 'meat wagons' on the grounds...every track in America needs to do this...every owner needs to put it in writting, on foal/sale papers, that this particular horse will not be sold without notifying the breeder/owner to give them the chance to take an unwanted horse back...and I beleive that every track needs to employ someone to keep an eye on the lower level race horses...the ones running for low claiming tags...to insure these horses are not being abused, and if they aren't fit to race, make arrangments with the trainer/owner to retire that horse, before it becomes another statistic...I'd bet the tracks could find a lot of folks that would volunteer for such a 'job'...

good post, Winter Triangle...and today I am going to take it upon myself to email both TVG and HRTV...can't hurt.

[WinterTriangle]

could run web site addresses to the equine retirement facilities and ask for donations...

directly within the industry, there are numerous things that could be done to help the horses

All your suggestions were great, these two in particular, because they are not that *hard*.

Back to track takeouts, I copied these out for myself..... do I have them about right? As far as I can see, there aren't many tracks that have a great handle, not across the board. Just doesn't look like much choice?

I put the green as lowest, the red/strikethroughs as no-no's, and the stuff that remains in black is about average (if you have info on the other tracks that are not running now, can you add to my document?):

DMR takeout: WPS: 15.4% EX: 20.7% TRI: 20.7%

SAR takeout: WPS: 16% EX: 18.5% TRI: 26%

AP takeout: WPS: 15% EX: 17.5% TRI: 23%

CRC takeout: WPS: 18% EX: 20% TRI: 27%

CT takeout: WPS: 17.3% EX: 19% TRI: 25%

DEL takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 19% TRI: 25%

EMD takeout: WPS: 16.1% EX: 22.1% TRI: 22.1%

EVD takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 20.5% TRI: 25%

FL takeout: WPS: 16% EX: 16.5% TRI: 26%

HST takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 20.5% TRI: 28.3%

LRL takeout: WPS: 18% EX: 21% TRI: 25.8%

LoAl takeout: WPS: 15.4% EX: 20.7% TRI: 20.7%

LAD takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 20.5% TRI: 25%

MTH takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 19% TRI: 25%

MNR takeout: WPS: 17.3% EX: 25% TRI: 25%

PEN takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 28% TRI: 31%

PHA takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 26% TRI: 30%

PID takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 26% TRI: 30%

PRM takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 20% TRI: 23%

WO takeout: WPS: 17% EX: 20.5% TRI: 28.3%

[BillW]

These are up to date to the end of last year.

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanatrackratingsbytrackname.html


All your suggestions were great, these two in particular, because they are not that *hard*.

Back to track takeouts, I copied these out for myself..... do I have them about right? As far as I can see, there aren't many tracks that have a great handle, not across the board. Just doesn't look like much choice?

[Imriledup]

Bet Tri's at DMR, great bet at 20 pct.

[Indulto]

http://www.sbsun.com/sports/ci_13622071
HORSE RACING: Oak Tree executive has a lot on his plate
By Art Wilson 10/22/2009… Then there are the folks at TVG, the same "bettor friendly" company whose contract with Oak Tree for exclusive television rights expired this year and it was asked to share the television stage with Horse Racing TV.

"We thought it was fair to open it up to everybody," Chillingworth said.

TVG's reaction?

Network officials picked up all their toys, in this instance their on-site cameras and on-air personalities, and went home in a huff. Their coverage of the Oak Tree meet has been spotty at best, with the on-air talent either stuck in the studio or dispatched to other racing venues.

To be fair to TVG officials, Santa Anita has ties to HRTV, which obviously benefits from the new non-exclusive rights. But that doesn't excuse TVG's decision to make like Dodgers slugger Manny Ramirez and think only of itself at a time when this sport needs everyone pulling on the same end of the rope.

"What they've done is try to make an example of us - here's what happens to you when you don't do an exclusive," Chillingworth said. "They've admitted it. They've told me, `We're going to treat our exclusive tracks better.

"Well, then my complaint was they're showing Louisiana Downs races live instead of ours, and (Louisiana Downs) is a non-exclusive track."

TVG's response?

"Silence," Chillingworth said. "Only silence." …:bang:

[cj]

After years of a strong SoCal bias, I find it a pleasant break. The product sucks anyway so who cares if they cover the meet like it is the best thing around?

[JustRalph]

After years of a strong SoCal bias, I find it a pleasant break. The product sucks anyway so who cares if they cover the meet like it is the best thing around?


used to be 90% of my play

needless to say.........I don't play much anymore

[InsideThePylons-MW]

HANA should take a stand here. A fight has to start somewhere.

HANA has had numerous slam dunk winning fights they could have started. For whatever reason, they chose not to.

If they would have fought a couple and won, maybe CA racing would have been scared to possibly raise takeout.

[Imriledup]

HANA should take a stand here. A fight has to start somewhere.

The only way HANA could do anything about this is if they were powerful enough to damage TVG in some way. They could have a TVG Boycott day where a dozen of Hana's members stand in front of every racetrack in the country (you'd need a few hundred members or more) and hold pickit signs denouncing TVG's practices. The problem is that TVG's customers wouldn't see these signs because they are at home and not entering america's racetracks.

I'm not sure anything they so would be so much as a minor nuisance to TVG.

NANA needs to get big and powerful before they decide to take off the gloves.

Is there anyone out there who has enough power to make TVG cry uncle?

[cj's dad]

A very dreary rainy day here in the Baltimore area and I spent the day making a few $2-$5 bets and watching both TVG and HRTV feeds from around the country.

Seems that 10+ years ago, I would have had to go to Pimlico/Laurel Park to do the same at a much higher level of expense.

Thanks TVG and HRTV for being there !!!