Make them killers and it doesn't go away

[46zilzal]

Casualties of War, Part I: The hell of war comes home

By Dave Phillips / Colorado Springs Gazette

Before the murders started, Anthony Marquez’s mom dialed his sergeant at Fort Carson to warn that her son was poised to kill.

It was February 2006, and the 21-year-old soldier had not been the same since being wounded and coming home from Iraq eight months before. He had violent outbursts and thrashing nightmares. He was devouring pain pills and drinking too much. He always packed a gun.

“It was a dangerous combination. I told them he was a walking time bomb,” said his mother, Teresa Hernandez.

His sergeant told her there was nothing he could do. Then, she said, he started taunting her son, saying things like, “Your mommy called. She says you are going crazy.”

Eight months later, the time bomb exploded when her son used a stun gun to repeatedly shock a small-time drug dealer in Widefield over an ounce of marijuana, then shot him through the heart.

Marquez was the first infantry soldier in his brigade to murder someone after returning from Iraq. But he wasn’t the last.

Hear the prison interviews with Kenneth Eastridge.

Marquez's 3,500-soldier unit — now called the 4th Infantry Division’s 4th Brigade Combat Team — fought in some of the bloodiest places in Iraq, taking the most casualties of any Fort Carson unit by far.

Back home, 10 of its infantrymen have been arrested and accused of murder, attempted murder or manslaughter since 2006. Others have committed suicide, or tried to.

[ArlJim78]

a sad situation exploited with an erroneous and misleading title.
you should be ashamed.

[lsbets]

a sad situation exploited with an erroneous and misleading title.
you should be ashamed.

He really believes what he titled the thread, that those who come home are killers who can't be controlled. The last time he brought it up, crime stats were brought out showing that returning Iraq and Afghan vets have a lower incidence of violent crime than the population at large.

Of course, he employs his own scientific method - facts be damned, he wants to see things a certain way, so he will.

The title he threw on the thread just shows once again what a lousy piece of crap Tim is.

[46zilzal]

From the Iraqi war veterans site themselves. THEY KNOW what that experience does to some people.

Srapping the bottom of the barrel doesn't help either.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2008/07/some-surprising-new-findings-gis-ptsd-and-crime

[BlueShoe]

This article was in my morning paper,and after reading it,one of my thoughts was,"I bet one one of those left wing loons on Pace Advantage posts it".So here we are.Lets take the numbers a little farther.Take a group of 3500 young men that are not in the service and not veterans.Check the criminal records of this group and see how many have been arrested for violent felonies.Looks pretty awful doesnt it?Somehow the blame America first bunch cannot grasp the idea that warfare involves killing your enemies;that it is not like scrambling up a batch of eggs.Killing does on occasion brutalize a man,at least temporarily,not necessarily forever.There were 16 million American vets that served in World War II,and as a child,do not recall a whole bunch of nut cases running around.Check with the VA,VFW,or AL about the myth of the mal adjusted veteran.

[toetoe]

Teach Zilly the basics of logic, leave him to his own misanthropic premises, and WALLAH ... he just won't go away.

[ddog]

ok shoe


try this----

war involved killing your enemies - natch - we train to win wars thus kill our enemies -- truth -- a fact.

the act of war can brutalize some or attracts the brutal - natch --- fact as you stated.

some returning need help - fact - when reported in this instance it sounds like it was not provided??? fact??? is that blame us first??? really????

do we owe more help to those coming back than the avg 3500 from a crowd??

other than the need to pile on the original poster - the facts seem to hold up here.


My first thought was about the guys , not a stupid bulletin board, i guess it's different in Cali.

[lsbets]

Undoubtedly there are guys who come home who need help and don't get it. That is wrong. Its always been that way. We've gotten a lot better at it over the last 40 years, but can still do better. But, as I pointed out - when viewed as a whole, Iraq vets have a lower incidence of violent crime arrests than the population as a whole. That doesn't fit the alleged doctor's profile.

My issue is the desire of some to characterize returning vets as crazed killers who can't be trusted to roam the streets of America. That is the image Tim sees in his mind. I won't get into the reasons why that might be, they have been laid out here many times before by him, but the intent of Tim starting this thread was not to say - hey, there are guys who need help, we should do more. His intent was to perpetuate the myth of the crazed vets who can't rejoin society. He is a scumbag.

[46zilzal]

http://iraqwarvets.blogspot.com/2008/07/war-and-crime.html
Returning home from Iraq has been one hell of an experience for me. I was
discharged in 2004 after serving four years in the Marines. I did three
deployments, two of which were to Iraq, spending about half my Marine
time overseas. Since returning home I've been tasered in the head, neck,
back and stomach by the police in two separate incidents. The first incident
has been dropped and I was never convicted of any crime. The second incident is ongoing and I am on house arrest waiting for the justice system to decide what they want to do with me. My charges since becoming a civilian are DWI, breaking and entering and destruction of property, none of which were violent crimes. Compared to being in combat and being told to kill people it seems ridiculous. Obviously the laws are different here than in Iraq, but I sure don't feel guilty for what I'm being punished for. I'm hoping I can get some more vets to talk about their experiences after returning home, and I'd also like to get people to my Website to help me bring some of these issues to the forefront. I feel like I've been treated inhumanely and have lost my rights as an American citizen. Please help me to get the attention of somebody who can make a difference. I've written my congresswoman, the governor, the ACLU, I have an attorney and am a journalist, but no one seems to care.Visit www.theworldsword.com to see some of my articles.

[46zilzal]

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Antiwar_veterans_group_War_crimes_are_0121.html

QUOTE: "The killing of innocent civilians is policy," said veteran Mike Blake. "It's unit policy and it's Army policy. It's not official policy, but it's what's happens on the ground everyday. It's what unit commanders individually encourage."



What became common place is hard to stop when it is NOT allowed any longer.

[lsbets]

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Antiwar_veterans_group_War_crimes_are_0121.html

QUOTE: "The killing of innocent civilians is policy," said veteran Mike Blake. "It's unit policy and it's Army policy. It's not official policy, but it's what's happens on the ground everyday. It's what unit commanders individually encourage."



What became common place is hard to stop when it is NOT allowed any longer.

The claims made by those folks are nothing but pure bullshit, although you will undoubtedly take them at face value since that is what you want to believe.

[ddog]

they/we are not crazed killers, if that's his MO , then he is wrong.

I think it has gotten better since I know many guys from my dad's generation and even 'Nam that just didn't talk about it, they just held it in. Most of them ok, but some would have been better to have an outlet somewhere.

My sister was set to marry a 'Nam vet until he shot up the town library and then took his own life, it's tough. Everyone knew he was over the edge but there just wasn't anything we could do to stop him.

I wish we could get serious about it , really and stay after the guys/gals coming back so we would have a better chance to help the ones that we can.

Some , don't want help and that's not going to change.

It breaks your heart to see it happen to the guys and gals that served, but even if there is unfair bashing going on , i think it may help to light a fire under the system to try harder.

[46zilzal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

[46zilzal]

Widespread enough to consider changing the law for some of these poor guys.
http://www.citypages.com/2008-03-26/feature/crime-and-ptsd/

QUOTE:"Klecker is not required to seek treatment upon completion of his sentence.

Klecker's story is a perfect example of why veterans need psychological treatment rather than prison time, Hunter says. "Until we get them that help, they continue to present the same problem, the same danger to public safety."

Hunter authored a provision to a Veterans Omnibus bill with the help of activist Guy Gambill that will be debated by the Minnesota House and Senate in coming weeks. On March 13, the PTSD portion of the bill passed unanimously by members present at the House Public Safety Committee.

The legislation would require the courts to determine whether a criminal defendant is a veteran. With military service established, the defense attorney could then order a psychological assessment, says Hunter, who also serves as the legislative chair of the Minnesota Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

If the veteran is diagnosed with a mental illness, the court will be made aware of possible therapy programs available through the Department of Veterans Affairs, and treatment can be considered during sentencing, Hunter says.

[lsbets]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

That was the article you posted last time. The number of murders referenced in the article by returning vets - 121, is lower than rate of murders committed by the same age group in the population as a whole.

Your premise was proven bullshit then, yet you continue to push it today.

You are one sick **** Tim.

[46zilzal]

Widespread enough to consider changing the law for some of these poor guys.
http://www.citypages.com/2008-03-26/feature/crime-and-ptsd/
Klecker is not required to seek treatment upon completion of his sentence.

Klecker's story is a perfect example of why veterans need psychological treatment rather than prison time, Hunter says. "Until we get them that help, they continue to present the same problem, the same danger to public safety."

Hunter authored a provision to a Veterans Omnibus bill with the help of activist Guy Gambill that will be debated by the Minnesota House and Senate in coming weeks. On March 13, the PTSD portion of the bill passed unanimously by members present at the House Public Safety Committee.

The legislation would require the courts to determine whether a criminal defendant is a veteran. With military service established, the defense attorney could then order a psychological assessment, says Hunter, who also serves as the legislative chair of the Minnesota Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

If the veteran is diagnosed with a mental illness, the court will be made aware of possible therapy programs available through the Department of Veterans Affairs, and treatment can be considered during sentencing, Hunter says.

[toetoe]

The basis of the economy in the new startup country, Zillyland? Why, "What's for the losers ?," of course.

(:Shaking head at the brilliance of it.)

[46zilzal]

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20584786

Few studies have conducted symptom comparisons across different
trauma-exposed populations. Evidence linking different types of trauma
to variations in clinical presentation would have potential implications
for the assessment and treatment of trauma-related psychopathology.
The current study evaluated whether military veterans (n = 187) and
civilian crime victims (n = 47) diagnosed with posttraumatic stress disorder
differ in their self-reported posttraumatic symptoms as measured by the
Trauma Symptom Inventory. A multivariate profile analysis revealed
that military-related trauma is associated with more severe posttraumatic
symptoms than criminal victimization and suggested that these 2 types of
trauma have statistically distinct symptom profiles. Some potential
implications of these findings and considerations for future research are discussed.

[Black Ruby]

46zilzal, with about 1000 US bases in foreign countries and all the military personnel and civilian contractors, you know we can't end the wars or close the bases. What would the soldiers and contractors come home to? No jobs. It wouldn't be long before there was civil unrest and probably some riots. If you'll remember, in October a brigade was brought back from Iraq and stationed at Fort Stewart in case of civil unrest, even without bringing all our people back from overseas. http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/
Was it Laurel or Hardy that used to say "here's another fine mess you've gotten us into"?

[lsbets]

The basis of the economy in the new startup country, Zillyland? Why, "What's for the losers ?," of course.

(:Shaking head at the brilliance of it.)

I think Zillyland already exists in Dr. Tim Stallmucker's mind.

[46zilzal]

http://ptsd.about.com/od/prevalence/a/IraqWarPTSD.htm
A recent study in the journal Military Medicine examined rates of PTSD and the success of these VA programs among 120 service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

They surveyed the returning service members on their PTSD symptoms, depression, alcohol use, and their use of VA mental health services. Their findings for mental health problems are quite alarming:

* 6% had PTSD

* 27% showed dangerous alcohol use

* 6% had problems with both PTSD and alcohol use

They also found that 62% of service members reported receiving some kind of mental health care since returning home from Iraq or Afghanistan. Of these:

* 11% reported use of medication

* 13% had individual therapy

* 12% had group therapy

* 10% had marital or family therapy

* 2% had treatment for susbtance use problems

* 51% were involved in briefings and/or debriefings.

What This All Means

The findings of this study suggest that service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are suffering from a number of mental health problems, including PTSD and alcohol use. In addition, not all are receiving the care they need.

Although 62% reported receiving some kind of mental health care, a good proportion of those surveyed did not. Further, of those receiving care, we do not know the extent and quality of the care they were receiving.

It is apparent that the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are having a major impact on the men and women serving there. The VA is taking steps to make sure that these men and women have needed mental health services available to them. However, this study shows that more effort is needed to make sure these services are being sought out and used.

[boxcar]

And you forgot to add, Zilly: 90% of us are bored silly reading your nonsense.

Boxcar

[Black Ruby]

Box, just go watch Raving Fascist or one of your other favorites.

[Warren Henry]

46, I think you are scum. Further, I think you are mentally ill.

Why do you continue to start threads like this where you get roundly discredited. Are you sick? Do you need to be abused?



Like I said before, part of the trouble faced by the returning vet is the attitude of scum like you.

If you feel so strongly about your message, I suggest that you slip back across the border. A few of us who have served would love to have you explain your views to us face to face. We will pay our own travel expenses.

[boxcar]

Box, just go watch Raving Fascist or one of your other favorites.

That movie would represent a significant upgrade from zilly's posts -- and probably all of yours as well. The more I read of you, the less I'm liking. (For all I know you could be zilly's twin.) :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[cj's dad]

Why is it that a guy who hates this country so much that he left for canada cares what goes on here?? I just don't get it-

Silly Zilly - listen up; none of us here that you try in your silly way to beat down care about Canada- enjoy your life there and stop worrying about us , we'll be just fine. And oh by the way, if Canada gets it's ass in a jam the US military will be there to bail you all out, you can count on it.

[Tom]

All in favor of banning this miserable excuse of a human again say AYE!

Even the president told us doctors were lying little thieves who perform unneeded surgery to pad their bankrolls. The president said it, it must be true.
Sick bastards taking advantage of the sick and poor.
Ban all doctors.

[lsbets]

Its funny, you'd think that if 46's premise were true, you know once a killer always a killer, I might know someone who has killed someone since they've come home.

I haven't killed anyone, no one I know has killed anyone. No one I know has told me about anyone killing someone. I haven't heard through the grapevine about anyone from our battalion or brigade killing anyone.

Well, I must be wrong. After all, 46 has an advanced education! :lol:

[Tom]

46 still being alive would seem to contradict his theory.

[ArlJim78]

We have about 10 murders a week in Chicago.

Who trained those guys to be killers? hmmm

[BlueShoe]

We have about 10 murders a week in Chicago.

Who trained those guys to be killers? hmmm
Acorn and/or the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

[cj's dad]

Baltimore City just had 18 that's EIGHTEEN shootings with two deaths (one a 2yr. old) this past Sunday. Like to wager none were veterans of the military??

[riskman]

Baltimore City just had 18 that's EIGHTEEN shootings with two deaths (one a 2yr. old) this past Sunday. Like to wager none were veterans of the military??


The shooters or the victims?

[cj's dad]

The shooters or the victims?

The shooters

[BoldEye]

All in favor of banning this miserable excuse of a human again say AYE!

Even the president told us doctors were lying little thieves who perform unneeded surgery to pad their bankrolls. The president said it, it must be true.
Sick bastards taking advantage of the sick and poor.
Ban all doctors.

I aye...

[delayjf]

The good news is he killed a drug dealer. I would be in favor of legislation that all all returning vet a get out of jail free card for killing any drug dealer or gang member. The Police could provide them with a list.

On a more serious note, I can't help but wonder about this kids background prior to the military. Did he have gang affiliations? Was he addicted to meth? You don't have to be a combat vet to wig out on that stuff.

[toetoe]

All in favor of banning this miserable excuse of a human again say AYE!



Make sure you're joking, Tom. I think you are.

[kenwoodallpromos]

None of these killers should be returned to society- chances of their combat experience having a negative affect on the civilian population is just too great.
WOOPS-SORRY. I THOUGHT 46 WAS TALKING ABOUT THE ENEMY COMBATANTS AT GITMO.
46 wants them all released because only allied soldiers becom killers for life!!LOL!!