Would a Class Action Lawsuit against Racetracks with high Takeout……

[andymays]

If there were a class action lawsuit by Horseplayers (coordinated by HANA) against Race Tracks with high takeout (gouging the public)....

Would a class action lawsuit bring national attention to the problem?

Would a class action lawsuit be successful?

[miesque]

Please see my response to you in the other thread as to why this is a very poor idea.

[andymays]

Please see my response to you in the other thread as to why this is a very poor idea.


It's about bringing attention to the problem in a very public way.

[miesque]

It's about bringing attention to the problem in a very public way.

Do you have any idea just how much money it costs to take on the government in the courts?

[andymays]

Do you have any idea just how much money it costs to take on the government in the courts?


No, but couldn't we use the money everyone pays in dues to get this going? :)

I'm guessing you checked Bad Idea in the poll! ;)

[miesque]

No, but couldn't we use the money everyone pays in dues to get this going? :)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Money everyone pays in dues? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Right now only a very, very small percentage of members who sign up actually contribute any funds (and we are very appreciative of those who do, every $20-30 really counts), but to think HANA has any sort of meaningful War Chest as a result is beyond laughable.

[ezrabrooks]

If there were a class action lawsuit by Horseplayers (coordinated by HANA) against Race Tracks with high takeout (gouging the public)....

Would a class action lawsuit bring national attention to the problem?

Would a class action lawsuit be successful?

I could see a class action vs Rebates...before take out "track gouging"..

Ez

[miesque]

To put this in reference, HANA could afford to pay maybe three billable hours of a NY Attorney which I am sure will get us far in the efficiently run New York court and legislative system. :lol:

[andymays]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Money everyone pays in dues? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Right now only a very, very small percentage of members who sign up actually contribute any funds (and we are very appreciative of those who do, every $20-30 really counts), but to think HANA has any sort of meaningful War Chest as a result is beyond laughable.

It's good to see you laugh! I knew the "dues money" comment would get you!:ThmbUp:


My point with this thread is that something innovative needs to be done to bring attention to the issue.

This may be a nuclear option but I felt like stirring the pot on a Sunday morning!


What about my 10% takeout weekend next year?

[Irish Boy]

You'd be laughed out of court, the suit would be summarily dismissed for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted and, if your lucky and grovel enough, the court won't impose additional monetary sanctions against you for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

[miesque]

It's good to see you laugh! I knew the "dues money" comment would get you!:ThmbUp:


My point with this thread is that something innovative needs to be done to bring attention to the issue.

This may be a nuclear option but I felt like stirring the pot on a Sunday morning!


What about my 10% takeout weekend next year?


On a more serious follow up note, as high as takeout is, considering how high taxes can get on other areas (you want an eye opener, figure out how much of the cost of the bottle of beer you buy in the store is actually state and federal taxes or look at the fact that the upper end of the estate tax rate goes up to 55%) there is no way a court of law is going to side with a class action lawsuit in this area even if someone had the money to fund such an endeavor. I personally am not the type to waste a ton of .money and time on a gesture.

While its nice to have a blip here or there of low takeout and every little bit counts, the only way for the industry to reap the benefits of lower takeout is to do it across the board for a meaningful length of time such that people can adjust their behavior accordingly. For example, you aren't going to get overseas money (which is a significant chunk of change) to come back for just a weekend or two or a few tracks.

[macguy]

Racetracks with high take-out aren't breaking the law, and what they are doing is not unjust.

It may seem "unfair" that they are charging high rates of take-out, but they are well within their right, and the law.

As far as I can see it, the only true way to punish tracks with high takes, is not to play them, and in turn, reward the tracks with lower take-out by betting on their product.

Such a simple plan, but as we all know it's not easily implemented.

[andymays]

On a more serious follow up note, as high as takeout is, considering how high taxes can get on other areas (you want an eye opener, figure out how much of the cost of the bottle of beer you buy in the store is actually state and federal taxes or look at the fact that the upper end of the estate tax rate goes up to 55%) there is no way a court of law is going to side with a class action lawsuit in this area even if someone had the money to fund such an endeavor. I personally am not the type to waste a ton of .money and time on a gesture.

While its nice to have a blip here or there of low takeout and every little bit counts, the only way for the industry to reap the benefits of lower takeout is to do it across the board for a meaningful length of time such that people can adjust their behavior accordingly. For example, you aren't going to get overseas money (which is a significant chunk of change) to come back for just a weekend or two or a few tracks.


The idea of a 10% takeout weekend is for the Tracks that do it to see if it will work and then decide where the optimum takeout/handle point would be.

Wishing it will change aint gonna get it done!

[andymays]

Racetracks with high take-out aren't breaking the law, and what they are doing is not unjust.It may seem "unfair" that they are charging high rates of take-out, but they are well within their right, and the law.

As far as I can see it, the only true way to punish tracks with high takes, is not to play them, and in turn, reward the tracks with lower take-out by betting on their product.

Such a simple plan, but as we all know it's not easily implemented.


They may not be breaking the law but a 26% take is certainly unjust in my opinion!

[miesque]

[/B]


The idea of a 10% takeout weekend is for the Tracks that do it to see if it will work and then decide where the optimum takeout/handle point would be.

Wishing it will change aint gonna get it done!

I am not saying that such an attempt would not be a good idea, I was just pointing out the maximum positive effect would be a longer term experiment at as many tracks as possible.

[macguy]

[B]


They may not be breaking the law but a 26% take is certainly unjust in my opinion!


I agree, but lawfully unjust at that. :bang:

[andymays]

I am not saying that such an attempt would not be a good idea, I was just pointing out the maximum positive effect would be a longer term experiment at as many tracks as possible.


I agree but we need to take a realistic first step.

[Irish Boy]

I agree but we need to take a realistic first step.

Like filing a frivolous class action lawsuit? If you want to pay the $400-$500 per hour or so for counsel in this sort of case, go crazy.

[andymays]

Like filing a frivolous class action lawsuit? If you want to pay the $400-$500 per hour or so for counsel in this sort of case, go crazy.


The point first and foremost is to bring national attention to the problem and a symbolic class action lawsuit is one way to do it.

It's a gimmick and it's just an idea not a mandate for HANA or anyone else.

By the way what are some of your ideas to improve things for the Horseplayer?

Please don't come up with the "don't play into the high takeout pools argument". We can talk about abstinece all we want but it's like the birth control debate. Abstinece isn't practical for most Horseplayers and the Race Tracks know it!

[miesque]

The point first and foremost is to bring national attention to the problem and a symbolic class action lawsuit is one way to do it.

It's a gimmick and it's just an idea not a mandate for HANA or anyone else.

By the way what are some of your ideas to improve things for the Horseplayer?

Please don't come up with the "don't play into the high takeout pools argument". We can talk about abstinece all we want but it's like the birth control debate. Abstinece isn't practical for most Horseplayers and the Race Tracks know it!

The point is frivolous, symobolic acts are a great way to diminish your stature and make sure you are not taken seriously by the people you need to work with in order to make meaningful change for the better.


The abstinence argument is actually not a good one, because not all tracks have the same high takeout and you CAN still wager smartly by choosing a track on the lower range of takeout for your style of wagering.

[andymays]

The point is frivolous, symobolic acts are a great way to diminish your stature and make sure you are not taken seriously by the people you need to work with in order to make meaningful change for the better.


The abstinence argument is actually not a good one, because not all tracks have the same high takeout and you CAN still wager smartly by choosing a track on the lower range of takeout for your style of wagering.


The idea is to get some sharp and respected Journalists to put it out there front and center. When it gets out there and these Journalist get the feedback that I think they'll get then something might get done. As it stands now nothing is getting done.

People want to see HANA throw a punch in this fight and not a slap. Whether or not this thread is the right way to go is beside the point. I threw it out there to get a reaction and I certainly did. ;)

[miesque]

The idea is to get some sharp and respected Journalists to put it out there front and center. When it gets out there and these Journalist get the feedback that I think they'll get then something might get done. As it stands now nothing is getting done.

People want to see HANA throw a punch in this fight and not a slap. Whether or not this thread is the right way to go is beside the point. I threw it out there to get a reaction and I certainly did. ;)

And you don't think those sharp and respected journalists aren't tethered by the fact their respective publications receive money from the tracks in question? When you go to a publication's website, its pretty evident exactly where their revenue is coming from with all the flashing ads, take a closer look when you get a chance.

[andymays]

And you don't think those sharp and respected journalists aren't tethered by the fact their respective publications receive money from the tracks in question? When you go to a publication's website, its pretty evident exactly where their revenue is coming from with all the flashing ads, take a closer look when you get a chance.


Some Journalists are tethered and some aren't. Most of the articles I post in support of my opinions on this Board are from Journalists who aren't afraid to shake the tree. If they were afraid to upset people I wouldn't read them!

[Irish Boy]

The point first and foremost is to bring national attention to the problem and a symbolic class action lawsuit is one way to do it.

It's a gimmick and it's just an idea not a mandate for HANA or anyone else.

By the way what are some of your ideas to improve things for the Horseplayer?

Please don't come up with the "don't play into the high takeout pools argument". We can talk about abstinece all we want but it's like the birth control debate. Abstinece isn't practical for most Horseplayers and the Race Tracks know it!

Filing a lawsuit wouldn't by symbolic of anything. Lawsuits get filed all the time and you never hear anything about them. Actually, this lawsuit wouldn't even be allowed to be filed, because in order to file a class action lawsuit you need to have a certified class, which needs to be specified with some particularity, which couldn't be done here. The lawsuit would be filed, the defendants (whoever they would be) would file a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim (which is a tough bar to get over in antitrust suits), and it would be dismissed. Plus, judges don't like having their courts used to make symbolic points. In fact, they're known to apply monetary sanctions against plaintiffs and lawyers that do such things. Maybe a collection of horseplayers paying a lawyer a few thousand dollars to file a lawsuit, and then get fined thousands more dollars would be symbolic of something, but probably not what you're looking for.

As for "my ideas", I don't really know, but then again I don't spend a lot of time decrying the death of horse racing. But if serious horseplayers are too degenerate to limit themselves to a few favored tracks, or not play high takeout wagers, then I'd recommend the following as a few steps towards "saving" the sport.

1.) Improve the aesthetics of the sport. I'd be embarrassed to bring a family to 80% of the tracks in this country. Same thing with friends who aren't acquainted with the sport. Hawthorne regularly smells like urine. Most tracks use video graphics from two or three decades ago. These are simple fixes.

2.) Don't worry about handle- worry about eyes and butts. An extra 1,000 people that bet $100 at a track that runs 4 times a week means an extra $2,000,000 in the pools over the course of the month. Make the sport more friendly, and not just from a betting perspective.

3.) Some tracks need to close. I know people will lose their jobs, and some areas may go without tracks altogether. That's unfortunate, but unavoidable. A few historic tracks may be lost along the way, but that may simply be the price. The sport needs to be made more profitable for all parties involved.

[andymays]

Filing a lawsuit wouldn't by symbolic of anything. Lawsuits get filed all the time and you never hear anything about them. Actually, this lawsuit wouldn't even be allowed to be filed, because in order to file a class action lawsuit you need to have a certified class, which needs to be specified with some particularity, which couldn't be done here. The lawsuit would be filed, the defendants (whoever they would be) would file a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim (which is a tough bar to get over in antitrust suits), and it would be dismissed. Plus, judges don't like having their courts used to make symbolic points. In fact, they're known to apply monetary sanctions against plaintiffs and lawyers that do such things. Maybe a collection of horseplayers paying a lawyer a few thousand dollars to file a lawsuit, and then get fined thousands more dollars would be symbolic of something, but probably not what you're looking for.

As for "my ideas", I don't really know, but then again I don't spend a lot of time decrying the death of horse racing. But if serious horseplayers are too degenerate to limit themselves to a few favored tracks, or not play high takeout wagers, then I'd recommend the following as a few steps towards "saving" the sport.

1.) Improve the aesthetics of the sport. I'd be embarrassed to bring a family to 80% of the tracks in this country. Same thing with friends who aren't acquainted with the sport. Hawthorne regularly smells like urine. Most tracks use video graphics from two or three decades ago. These are simple fixes.

2.) Don't worry about handle- worry about eyes and butts. An extra 1,000 people that bet $100 at a track that runs 4 times a week means an extra $2,000,000 in the pools over the course of the month. Make the sport more friendly, and not just from a betting perspective.

3.) Some tracks need to close. I know people will lose their jobs, and some areas may go without tracks altogether. That's unfortunate, but unavoidable. A few historic tracks may be lost along the way, but that may simply be the price. The sport needs to be made more profitable for all parties involved.


I agree with you on #3 but not on the others!

The debate moves onward and upward (hopefully)!

[BUD]

The Bottle of beer got me thinking--How Bad I want one.

OK On HANA Pool Party days-We should put the Takeout on the litterature that goes out--

Then Instead of wasting time with us--Call Bris the DRF- Ask them to be proactive to put the takeout on every PP that goes out--DRF Print Papper costs money-But on the web-Sh1t no excuse--Just like the labels on beer Cigs You name it---Once players start seeing it everyday- Then you have some movement- Right now its Sorry to say you are correct--But as an issue--its nowhere--

Or Create The Take out Blog- Have every track listed- Write something simple each week- Send it out thru whats that TBA blogs--Jess I think---Once it hits Twitter and Race day 360--Your idea will start to move---Be creative..

I wish you best of luck

[BillW]

Then Instead of wasting time with us--Call Bris the DRF- Ask them to be proactive to put the takeout on every PP that goes out--

Unfortunately they'd have to go farther than that, Bud. A lot of the takeouts that the DRF and Bris publish on their websites are in error - could be just out of date. Maybe because they don't care? I don't know but you'd think they would have the contacts necessary to keep the data current and accurate.

[Dave Schwartz]

You'd be laughed out of court, the suit would be summarily dismissed for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted and, if your lucky and grovel enough, the court won't impose additional monetary sanctions against you for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

Irish,

Thank you for presenting a sane response.


Andy,

Respectfully, I must say that this is a really not-smart idea.

We must have at least one lawyer in the house that could step forward and tell us what a class action suit such as this would really cost. My guess is that you could "get it started" for the high end of 5-figures. That is a lot of $25 donations.

Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwarz

[WinterTriangle]

Attorneys don't accept "symbolic" money, as far as I know.;)

I guess I'm one of those "I vote with my pocketbook" people.

It's the whole basis of capitalism, IMHO.

The tracks are not breaking any laws, anymore than *** [name of big American company] gives crummy customer service and manufactures crummy products. It's why I bought a Toyota and not a Chrysler....I like Toyota's management philosophy, customer service, and product.

Let the market decide. That's how I thought it worked in America.

Nobody is forcing anyone to spend their money at XYor Z. It'd be different if the tracks were monopolistic utility companies.

I do like the idea about publishing information. Information is power, and helps people make decisions.

[Indulto]

Attorneys don't accept "symbolic" money, as far as I know.;)

I guess I'm one of those "I vote with my pocketbook" people.

It's the whole basis of capitalism, IMHO.

The tracks are not breaking any laws, anymore than *** [name of big American company] gives crummy customer service and manufactures crummy products. It's why I bought a Toyota and not a Chrysler....I like Toyota's management philosophy, customer service, and product.

Let the market decide. That's how I thought it worked in America.

Nobody is forcing anyone to spend their money at XYor Z. It'd be different if the tracks were monopolistic utility companies.

I do like the idea about publishing information. Information is power, and helps people make decisions.WT,
I agree, but I wonder if the BIG 3 -- DRF, B-H, TT -- would even accept the type of advertisement that miesque described.

I think GO is right about New York being an unsuitable target right now. IMO the time to exert pressure on the NYS govt. is when they merge the OTBs and NYRA. That's when to really get into discussions with them about how lower takeout could positively impact their new businesss model.

The NYS legislature and state wagering boards certainly seem far more formidable than the incestuous CHRB and TOC in California. Meanwhile, we have DMR -- finally free from contraints against rebates, and already the target of customer dissatisfaction due to it's synthetic surface. Turfwriters in cyberspce are jumping on them right now, and might be willing to publicize a protest action which would primarily involve off-track players, anyway. Whether or not the BIG 3 would publicize it is something else. This is an opportunity to show them that whales are not the only price-sensitive players.

Lower takeout at DMR -> Lower Takeout in Calif. -> Lower Takout in U.S.

This is not a matter of asking people to stop betting, but rather to temporarily redirect their action to the myriad of opportunities available elsewhere at this time of year in order to get a better deal for everybody everywhere.

I have a hunch that AM is being tongue-in-cheek about this law suit idea just to get people talking about activism. I have no intention of hijacking his thread (the topic is already under discussion at "Slowly but surely the truth about synthetic surfaces......"), I just want people who may not have read that thread to be aware there is an alternative that might be more workable at this time.

Don't set fire to the message just because you want to shoot the messenger. ;)

[andymays]

Or, we can sue to have a disclaimer or warning on each ticket. Maybe something similar to the surgeon generals warning on a pack of cigarettes.

On any wager with a takeout above 15% it should read:

This wager has a 26% takeout and may be hazardous to your finances and in fact may kill you financially! If you continue to place high takeout wagers you do so at your own risk! :eek:

[andymays]

Good Article by Steve Zorn!

http://businessofracing.blogspot.com/2009/07/racings-pricing-problems.html

Excerpt:

2. Takeout - The Big Bad Price

Everyone who's taken Economics 101 knows that, in theory, a lower price leads to higher volume. So, in theory, lowering takeout should mean that handle will increase. But, again applying those not-so-useful rules from Econ. 101, any business needs to determine where in that supply-demand equation it can make the most profit. If a track with a average 20% takout does $100,000 in handle (let's leave out simulcast handle for now -- that's a whole different problem, discussed below), it makes $20,000. To make the same $20,000 at 10% takeout, it needs to double the handle to $200,000. Will that happen, or will the growth in handle lag behind the decline in takeout? Despite the earnest claims of the Horseplayers Association of North America, there's just not enough evidence to know for sure where the ideal price point is. HANA's rankings give their highest grades (B+ -- evidently no track meets their demanding standards for an A) to Keeneland and Churchill, which charge 16% on win-place-show bets and 19% on all multiple and exotic wagers. At the other end of the scale, with F grades, are Assinoibia and Suffolk, with takeout rates of 26-29%; Frank Brunetti's Hialeah, in its dying days, went even higher. Every casino game has lower takeout than that, ranging from about 10% on penny slot machines down to 1-2% on blackjack and some other table games. In poker, the casino game that most closely resembles parimutuel betting, because one is playing against other bettors, rather than against the house, the takeout, whether in the form of a "rake" from each hand or a seat-rental charge, ranges from perhaps 10% in low-stakes games down to as little as 0.5% in the high-stakes games in Las Vegas. When the "comps" earned by players are added back in, it's possible to play certain games at certain casinos for what amounts to a microscopic take.

Racing couldn't survive with a takeout that low, but I'd love to see some serious experiments at major tracks with real takeout reductions. Laurel tried a 14% takeout on its Pick 4 for a while, and NYRA reduces the Pick 6 takeout to 16% on days when there's no carryover, but there's no good scientific evidence that I'm aware of as to what really works. I recall that when Steve Crist was working for NYRA, he managed to get some trakeout reductiuons through, and they did not in fact result in proportionately greater on-track handle, but the NYRA of that day, run by Kenny Noe with little regard for the fans, did little to promote its pricing structure. It remains to be seen whether a major reduction, say to 10%, as HANA suggests, would work. Let's give it a try.

[Watcher]

A "knowledge campaign" headed by HANA might have a more dramatic effect than a class action lawsuit.

A list should be compiled of all the tracks around the country and should include take out %, average field #, average handle, etc.

The list should then be marketed as a player aid in helping choose the right venues to play. It could be coupled with a campaign to boycott certain high takeout tracks / wagers.

[andymays]

A "knowledge campaign" headed by HANA might have a more dramatic effect than a class action lawsuit.

A list should be compiled of all the tracks around the country and should include take out %, average field #, average handle, etc.

The list should then be marketed as a player aid in helping choose the right venues to play. It could be coupled with a campaign to boycott certain high takeout tracks / wagers.


In general racing discussion see post #19 on NYRA takeout. I don't want to duplicate posts! ;)

[DeanT]

A "knowledge campaign" headed by HANA might have a more dramatic effect than a class action lawsuit.

A list should be compiled of all the tracks around the country and should include take out %, average field #, average handle, etc.


Watcher,

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanatrackratingsbytrackname.html

Fully sortable by rake and several other things. The page is getting a lot of action from players and we hope to update it and rerank yearly.

Takeout education is our primary goal. We have over 400 articles and many are takeout oriented.

Steve Zorn has been a follower of some of them, and I would like to commend him for his last blog piece. For a good deal of time Steve did not seem sold on takeout as a tool to grow but he is really being proactive on it now. He is an insider and someone we really want to reach with our thoughts. For far too long those in horseman groups and at tracks in positions of power thought takeout was something to raise, not lower. This is something we hope to change.

Steve asks for some examples and so on (racing always points out to a failed experiment or two for evidence it seems), so we do our best to bring them to light. Coincidentally, our piece last night focuses much of what Steve published and asked for today: http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/07/so-players-dont-care-about-takeout-huh.html

Also we have been chatting about field size and racing downsizing itself, in which Steve has also spoken about in his last series of writings:

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/07/zorn-on-downsizing.html

I think we are making some progress on the education campaign, if feedback from those inside racing is a proper metric we can use to gauge that.

D

[andymays]

It is my understanding that the all stakes pick 4 on Haskell day has a 15% take.

Why in the hell aren't they making a bigger deal out of that?

Isn't it a step in the right direction?

[Imriledup]

Or, we can sue to have a disclaimer or warning on each ticket. Maybe something similar to the surgeon generals warning on a pack of cigarettes.

On any wager with a takeout above 15% it should read:

This wager has a 26% takeout and may be hazardous to your finances and in fact may kill you financially! If you continue to place high takeout wagers you do so at your own risk! :eek:

:lol: