It is simply the horse and nothing else

[46zilzal]

No better example of which makes which can be found than in the example of one of our current leading trainers at Hastings: Troy Taylor. A competent,journeyman trainer who never hit the top ten, let alone the TOP of the trainer's stats over the last 25 years PLUS, the difference is in the raw materials he has to work with. The leading owners (Glen Todd and Patrick Kinsella) have provided this fellow with live, PROVEN allowance quality race horses gleaned from some of the bigger meets in New York and Maryland.

Work with Brand X and you get Brand X results. Work with a Rolex quality stable and the results are the same.

Same goes for ANY trainer at ANY race course. It is the HORSE and nothing else. Without that raw material to work with then it does not allow for good results.

[ryesteve]

Same goes for ANY trainer at ANY race course. It is the HORSE and nothing else.So you're saying that trainers who are consistently able to improve horses off a claim are actually just spooky good at spotting a horse who's ready to bust out and start running new tops?

[macguy]

Do keep in mind Troy was leading trainer at Hst in 1963, though I suppose that was 47 years ago. :eek:

You can really say that Swift is trying to follow suit with Glen & Pat.

I suppose the purses in the last few years have reached the point where it's actually worth while to ship in near "A" track quality horses and run them at Hst.

Of course there's no way of knowing how much the big outfits are paying to purchase and ship these "ringers" to the Hst meet. I often look at the collective earnings and truly can't imagine that they are enough to cover the purchase AND training of all the horses. I believe Troy has upwards of 35 stalls at the meet (and who knows how many more off-track), and with that a small army of grooms and exercise people.

I know a few of Swifts "ringers" have been spotted running for bottoms, I suppose you're bound to end up with a dud or two.

It has certainly livened up the races at Hst, we've got to see some breeding that likely otherwise would have never made it to the meet.

I suppose the BC Breds have fallen by the way-side in some of the open stakes and allowance categories, even the higher claimers for that matter.

[Tom]

Funny how some horses just improve by open lengths off a claim, how some back up off of others, how some trainers are always on top, some always on the bottom.

Nope, I do not agree with that observation at all - far too much information disagrees with it.

[proximity]

So you're saying that trainers who are consistently able to improve horses off a claim are actually just spooky good at spotting a horse who's ready to bust out and start running new tops?

46's bankroll is praying that steph beattie never starts training at hastings!!

[46zilzal]

So you're saying that trainers who are consistently able to improve horses off a claim are actually just spooky good at spotting a horse who's ready to bust out and start running new tops?

Who runs the race? The horse. Some trainers (I worked as a hot walker for a good one who showed me the claiming game) can spot a correctable problem and circumvent it.

Case in point was an old claimer named Humphrey Lad. From the KNOWN front leg problem sire Bold Laddie (front legs tendon troubles were a major problem with his entire crop), my friend recognized his limitations, spaced his race far enough apart so that the filling in the flexor tendons went down and allowed the POTENTIAL OF THE HORSE to come out. Ran until he was 11 and, at about 25, is still around as a partner to nervous horses when shipping. Claimed for $6500, he successfully ran with allowance horses at Turf Paradise and had part of the track record at 6 furlongs.

The HORSE, the RUNNER had the raw materials. It was just up to a competent horsemen to find out what they were.

The HORSE ran, the trainer kep him running.

[dvlander]

It was just up to a competent horsemen to find out what they were.
Doesn't this conflict with your thread title that says? It is simply the horse and NOTHING else.

Dale

[46zilzal]

Doesn't this conflict with your thread title that says?

Dale
Who runs the race? HINT: It is NOT the trainer.

We would NEVER have heard of Louie Roussel or Cam Gambolotti if it weren't for Risen Star and Spend a Buck.

Even old Buddy Delp wouldn't have been prominent outside of the Maryland/ NY circuit if Bid had not landed in his barn.

[ryesteve]

Who runs the race?But you ARE now saying the competence of the horseman has something to do with how they run, which is not what your initial "the horse, the horse, and nothing but the horse" post was saying.

[46zilzal]

But you ARE now saying the competence of the horseman has something to do with how they run, which is not what your initial "the horse, the horse, and nothing but the horse" post was saying.
Horse makes the trainer. not the other way around

[DJofSD]

Some trainers (I worked as a hot walker for a good one who showed me the claiming game) can spot a correctable problem and circumvent it.
If you are on track and are able to get to the walking ring/saddling area, you can watch to see what the claiming trainers are doing. And if you know where they have to go to drop a slip to try to claim a horse, you can kind of put two and two together. Then wait for the announcement after the race has been run to see what horses have been claimed and by who. It used to be announced if there was a shake (more than one claim slip) but they never would tell you who the losing trainers are, just who won the claim.

Some times I wonder if a horse improves by moving to a new barn because the people handling the lead rope are better than those in the old barn.

[Wickel]

It's also funny how horses continually break slowly, get blocked on the turn, or drift extremely wide under certain jocks, and win or run consistently well for others. It's not happenstance--it happens time and time again. Sure you need a talented horse, but jocks and trainers are a major part of the game.
One more thing, there's a reason Troy Taylor is still training at Hastings Park!!

[46zilzal]

One more thing, there's a reason Troy Taylor is still training at Hastings Park!!
yes, he lives here. I have always asked a number of trainer why they stay when they could go elsewhere and be successful: they like it here and don't want to leave.

[ryesteve]

Horse makes the trainer. not the other way aroundThen go argue with the guy who just said it requires a competent horseman to uncover potential and correct problems. The rest of us will leave you alone.

[fmolf]

at the upper echelons of the sport, the trainer makes the least amount of difference.Some trainers will always be better than others just look at the records. same horse different records with different trainers.Different feed,different handlers,different training regimen,different/better or worse vet care,some drug some do not,trainer spots horses better,employs better jockeys.Mr. 46 you are way off base when you say the "horse is it and nothing else"..heres my saying "a trainer by himself cannot win a horse race but he certainly can lose one".

[Dave Schwartz]

Years ago I had a client who was a cmall owner/trainer on the CA fair circuit.

I remember him telling me that he was experiencing "bad luck" because he had started 6 horses that year and all 6 had broken down. Funny thing was that the previous year he had 8 horses and 5 brokedown.

Just bad horses? I don't think so.


But just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[46zilzal]

Years ago I had a client who was a cmall owner/trainer on the CA fair circuit.

I remember him telling me that he was experiencing "bad luck" because he had started 6 horses that year and all 6 had broken down. Funny thing was that the previous year he had 8 horses and 5 brokedown.

Just bad horses? I don't think so.


There are many incompetents on every backstretch in North America

[cj]

Horse makes the trainer. not the other way around

If only this were true these days. There are many times trainers are a MUCH more important factor than the horse because you just know a miracle is coming. Of course the horse runs the race, but it will many times bear little resemblance to anything the horse has done before when in the hands of some of these miracle workers.

[Warren Henry]

Why bother to argue with this guy as it is obvious that he knows all about everything.

Besides, we want his money in the pool.

[bisket]

Who runs the race? HINT: It is NOT the trainer.

We would NEVER have heard of Louie Roussel or Cam Gambolotti if it weren't for Risen Star and Spend a Buck.

Even old Buddy Delp wouldn't have been prominent outside of the Maryland/ NY circuit if Bid had not landed in his barn.
best thing that ever happened to buddy delp: the bid
worst thing that ever happened to bud delp: ronnie franklin
sometimes the jock can really screw the horse up

[46zilzal]

If only this were true these days. There are many times trainers are a MUCH more important factor than the horse because you just know a miracle is coming. Of course the horse runs the race, but it will many times bear little resemblance to anything the horse has done before when in the hands of some of these miracle workers.
The horse does that running :John Henry had it in him so did Stymie and Seabiscuit: the HORSE had the potential

These examples of a ugly duckling becoming a swan or course are true but are VERY VERY rare. There are more Green Monkeys and other ruined by trainers than the other way around

[cj]

The horse does that running :John Henry had it in him so did Stymie and Seabiscuit: the HORSE had the potential

These examples of a ugly duckling becoming a swan or course are true but are VERY VERY rare. There are more Green Monkeys and other ruined by trainers than the other way around

They are certainly not very rare. Maybe they don't become swans, but they become much better than they were. There are 30% and even 40% trainers popping up all over the place. Horses with a bunch of career starts suddenly run 10 and 15 lengths better than they ever have with certain trainers. Maybe you don't have them at Hastings where few care and fewer bet, but they populate most circuits in the country.

So yes, of course it is the horse that does the running. But handicapping, you better know which ones are capable of moving horses up with miraculous turnarounds. Many horses that do have shown no signs of such ability in the past.

[bisket]

i never bet a trainer. i always bet the horse. i only analyze trainers to try and figure what kind of effort i can expect from the horse in the race i'm handicapping. now i do look at a horse a little harder if he's been claimed by a trainer i know has a history of moving horse up in class, but that situation is very difficult to analyze.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Yeah, just open that stall gate and let that horse go to the track on his own and rely on it to work itself into shape and not go goofing around the shedrow with his equine pals, or go getting himself and other horses hurt by exercising frivolously without a rider on top to guide him and keep order out there. Rely on it to come back on its own, and not run off to some green patch of grass, on track or off, or go out and sow its wild oats instead with other runaways. Let the horse figure out what to eat and where to get it. Let the horse figurer out for itself what class level it should enter itself, and rely on it to know just how fast it is running early to conserve enough energy for the entire distance and be withing a couple fifths of a second of his optiim, and where it should be in traffic with all the other loose horses out there. After all, it's all the horse. :lol:

[46zilzal]

Who runs the race? Not the owner, or the trainer.

Who's record is listed, at most, ten times in the DRF?

Does the trainer set fractions, go wide, show form cycles, have surface/dstance preferences? Don't thinks so.

Old Hollywood has done a good job in getting the "Boots Malone" image into everyone's head, or Salty O'Rourke......as if they could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[WinterTriangle]

Mr. 46 you are way off base when you say the "horse is it and nothing else"..heres my saying "a trainer by himself cannot win a horse race but he certainly can lose one".

Sort of what Mike Smith said about riding Zenyatta. :)

I think 46 is speaking in the "purest" sense, and when I view it like that, I agree. Asmussen probably can't "improve" Rachel Alexandra. IMHO, he can ruin her, and of course many will argue that he "ruined Curlin" later on down the line?

However, in the not-pure sense, I look at trainers like I look at teachers.

Tell me where would Helen Keller be without Annie Sullivan? ;) Yes, it was "all Helen", a highly intelligent child, but Annie had to bring it out in her....otherwise,as we know, Helen Keller would have been just another "wild child".

[Tom]

Who runs the race? Not the owner, or the trainer.

Who's record is listed, at most, ten times in the DRF?

Does the trainer set fractions, go wide, show form cycles, have surface/dstance preferences? Don't thinks so.

Old Hollywood has done a good job in getting the "Boots Malone" image into everyone's head, or Salty O'Rourke......as if they could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Who feeds the horse?
Who trains the horse?
Who provides medical care to the horse?
Who enters the horse?
Who puts the equipment on the horse?

You've been watching to many Mr. Ed re-runs.
Of course, of course.

[ryesteve]

46's argument makes as much sense as saying that a restaurant is all about the ingredients used in the menu, and not the chef who puts it all together.

[dvlander]

As in many of the discussions with 46, we're getting to the point where we're beating a dead horse.

If 46 would have just said that the horse matters more than the trainer, I'd have agreed. But when you say that it's "the horse and NOTHING else", it implies that it is the horse 100% exclusive of any other factor, including the trainer. Clearly his own comments in this thread dispute that statement.

Also, I think the condescending comments such as:
Who runs the race? Not the owner, or the trainer.
are a bit insulting to the knowledgeable posters on this board and add zero credence to whatever flimsy argument he is trying to make.

Dale

[Wickel]

Also, I think the condescending comments ... are a bit insulting to the knowledgeable posters on this board and add zero credence to whatever flimsy argument he is trying to make.

AMEN!

[46zilzal]

The HORSE, and how it responded to various pace pressure scenarios, is all that can be measured race to race.

Let's see what was the TRAINER variant on the fourth at Fort Erie on June 23rd. Was it 6 or 9?

Horse runs a 44.3 then back 45.0.Just HOW does the trainer effect that time? They don't.

K.I.S.S. as Malcolm Galdwell has stated another way: Don't think Blink

[Greyfox]

46zil

If it's just the horse, would you advise owners to forget about having trainers?

[fmolf]

The HORSE, and how it responded to various pace pressure scenarios, is all that can be measured race to race.

Let's see what was the TRAINER variant on the fourth at Fort Erie on June 23rd. Was it 6 or 9?

Horse runs a 44.3 then back 45.0.Just HOW does the trainer effect that time? They don't.

K.I.S.S. as Malcolm Galdwell has stated another way: Don't think Blink
If your saying that a trainer cannot iprove a horse who has no talent then you are correct.If you are saying that a horse that has talent will run well for any trainer you are wrong.This is part of the fun part of handicapping and trainer intent analysis because one trainers methods may work for one horse and not another.this is why trainer stats are so varied.Some trainers excel at grass sprints others with dirt marathons,still others with 2yr olds,others are better than most with 1st timers....saying the trainer is not really important is like saying the coach in football does not matter.

[illinoisbred]

I"ve had friends who have had horses with good and poor trainers.These were mostly untalented animals.The good trainers always found a way to quickly rid themselves of these creatures.The poor ones lingered on with them for sometimes years,making it very costly to my friends.Good trainers know that not all thorobreds are meant to be racehorses.

[Citation1947]

Horse makes the trainer. not the other way around

I don't believe the "horse" made guys like Charlie Whittingham.

[46zilzal]

I don't believe the "horse" made guys like Charlie Whittingham.
He had the BEST horses on the grounds, Come on Now. A duffer could have made Fiddle Isle, Sunday Silence, Cougar II, Ferdinand and Ack Ack champions

Perrault, Porterhouse Estrapade as well not to mention Flawlessly
he lost his way with Excavator

A competent PATIENT trainer with very good stock. He would get the best out of them but when you are running Ferrari's it doesn't take much to be in the winner's circle OFTEN

[bisket]

I don't believe the "horse" made guys like Charlie Whittingham.
whittingham was a crackerjack horseman. now i see where you went off to ci

[Greyfox]

A competent PATIENT trainer with very good stock. He would get the best out of them but when you are running Ferrari's it doesn't take much to be in the winner's circle OFTEN

So is it advisable to those of us who own Ferrari's to let Volkswagen mechanics work on them?

[njcurveball]

A long time ago the Sartin people had a Seminar in Baltimore, the infamous "fire drill" one.

On the trip to the track I sat at a table with Bradshaw, Brohamer, Sartin, Elliott Sidewater and a few others.

After the results of one of the races Brohamer and I were happy. The rest, not so much. The horse that WON was either first or second off the claim for Gary Capuano. Terrible form, NO paceline could be chosen to explain the improvement. On my way to the cashiers window, I simply nodded to Tom and mumbled something like "the horse runs the race".

It would be a wonderful, wonderful world if the pool were made up of money from people like 46!

PLEASE allow him to continue to be an Apostle for these ideas for the newcomers. I cannot tell you how much I miss buying a form and seeing a first time starter from the 505 farms trained by John Shirreffs (of Giacomo fame now.) Or how much I miss driving up to Phila Park so I could bet a Dennis Heard claim with a jock not well known up there named Kent Desormeaux.

It is a wonderful game and we need more people like 46!

Carry your tablets and continue your sermon Brother!

AMen! :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Hey, NJ, I was there.
I was the guy on the sixth floor looking own at you guys and all the firetrucks with the totally :eek: expression on his face!

That was a great one!

[bisket]

A long time ago the Sartin people had a Seminar in Baltimore, the infamous "fire drill" one.

On the trip to the track I sat at a table with Bradshaw, Brohamer, Sartin, Elliott Sidewater and a few others.

After the results of one of the races Brohamer and I were happy. The rest, not so much. The horse that WON was either first or second off the claim for Gary Capuano. Terrible form, NO paceline could be chosen to explain the improvement. On my way to the cashiers window, I simply nodded to Tom and mumbled something like "the horse runs the race".

It would be a wonderful, wonderful world if the pool were made up of money from people like 46!

PLEASE allow him to continue to be an Apostle for these ideas for the newcomers. I cannot tell you how much I miss buying a form and seeing a first time starter from the 505 farms trained by John Shirreffs (of Giacomo fame now.) Or how much I miss driving up to Phila Park so I could bet a Dennis Heard claim with a jock not well known up there named Kent Desormeaux.

It is a wonderful game and we need more people like 46!

Carry your tablets and continue your sermon Brother!

AMen! :ThmbUp:
gary has :bang: for years. now theres one trainer i just can't seem to get a line on. i always look for form cycles in a horses pps. gary cap drives me up the wall

[njcurveball]

I was the guy on the sixth floor looking own at you guys and all the firetrucks with the totally :eek: expression on his face!




Was that after the 2nd or 3rd one? ;) I think there may have been a fourth, but I am not sure. I do remember the lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng checkout lines the next morning where everyone was complaining about it.

[WinterTriangle]

I"ve had friends who have had horses with good and poor trainers.These were mostly untalented animals.The good trainers always found a way to quickly rid themselves of these creatures.The poor ones lingered on with them for sometimes years,making it very costly to my friends.Good trainers know that not all thorobreds are meant to be racehorses.

Good trainers are also valued for their professional opinion and authentic honesty to their clients. A horse "lingering" for years in a barn is with a trainer who isn't worth his fee. Not because he can't improve an untalented horse, but because he doesn't have the professionalism to inform the owner of this status.

It seems odd that an owner would ride this out.:confused:

[nijinski]

I think rhe Taylor's thought the same thing ,they thought Seattle Slew could
continue his unbeaten streak in any barn.
Dead Wrong.
Turner knew when and where to place him.

[bisket]

at that time in his life turnpike was his own worst enemy though

[lamboguy]

A long time ago the Sartin people had a Seminar in Baltimore, the infamous "fire drill" one.

On the trip to the track I sat at a table with Bradshaw, Brohamer, Sartin, Elliott Sidewater and a few others.

After the results of one of the races Brohamer and I were happy. The rest, not so much. The horse that WON was either first or second off the claim for Gary Capuano. Terrible form, NO paceline could be chosen to explain the improvement. On my way to the cashiers window, I simply nodded to Tom and mumbled something like "the horse runs the race".

It would be a wonderful, wonderful world if the pool were made up of money from people like 46!

PLEASE allow him to continue to be an Apostle for these ideas for the newcomers. I cannot tell you how much I miss buying a form and seeing a first time starter from the 505 farms trained by John Shirreffs (of Giacomo fame now.) Or how much I miss driving up to Phila Park so I could bet a Dennis Heard claim with a jock not well known up there named Kent Desormeaux.

It is a wonderful game and we need more people like 46!

Carry your tablets and continue your sermon Brother!

AMen! :ThmbUp:we certainly do!

[nijinski]

at that time in his life turnpike was his own worst enemy though
Not sure what you mean regarding turnpike.

[bisket]

Not sure what you mean regarding turnpike.
thats turner's nickname. he was a jock or somewhat of a jock at one time

[Citation1947]

I think rhe Taylor's thought the same thing ,they thought Seattle Slew could
continue his unbeaten streak in any barn.
Dead Wrong.
Turner knew when and where to place him.


Actually, Slews win streak had already been snapped before any trainer switch to Doug Peterson.
Slew was beaten 16 lengths, finishing 4th in the Swaps under Turner. Of course he may have come back lame as it was another ten months before he raced again, this time in the Peterson barn.

[nijinski]

Actually, Slews win streak had already been snapped before any trainer switch to Doug Peterson.
Slew was beaten 16 lengths, finishing 4th in the Swaps under Turner. Of course he may have come back lame as it was another ten months before he raced again, this time in the Peterson barn.

Turner was against running in him in the Swaps , I wil llook back on the data
but I was pretty sure he did not go to California and he thought it was a bad
move.

[nijinski]

Turner was against running in him in the Swaps , I wil llook back on the data
but I was pretty sure he did not go to California and he thought it was a bad
move.
It is very apparent and documented that the owners were responsible for
the trip to the Swaps , that was obviously too soon after the Triple Crown Campaign , it was easy to blame Turner's alcohol problem but hut somehow
he managed to always do right by the horse.
There is no way I see Billy resposible for that dismal race.

[46zilzal]

The SLEW crew were not the most LOGICAL nor consistent of people. After railing against the use of BUTE, they loaded up Slew O'Gold so much of it that he got really sick after the inaugural Breeder's Cup Classic.

Not good for any horse as ulcerations of both stomach lining and intimal layers of blood vessels suffer from erosions.

[nijinski]

The SLEW crew were not the most LOGICAL nor consistent of people. After railing against the use of BUTE, they loaded up Slew O'Gold so much of it that he got really sick after the inaugural Breeder's Cup Classic.

Not good for any horse as ulcerations of both stomach lining and intimal layers of blood vessels suffer from erosions.
and there was Vet in the crew to boot.

[bisket]

It is very apparent and documented that the owners were responsible for
the trip to the Swaps , that was obviously too soon after the Triple Crown Campaign , it was easy to blame Turner's alcohol problem but hut somehow
he managed to always do right by the horse.
There is no way I see Billy resposible for that dismal race.
turner was absolutely against the swaps and rightly so. if i had a horse i would have no problem with turner conditioning the runner. history has definately shed light on the fact the slew crew wasn't necassarily the sharpest tools in the shed. turner did an excellant job with the colt.

[Cratos]

The SLEW crew were not the most LOGICAL nor consistent of people. After railing against the use of BUTE, they loaded up Slew O'Gold so much of it that he got really sick after the inaugural Breeder's Cup Classic.

Not good for any horse as ulcerations of both stomach lining and intimal layers of blood vessels suffer from erosions.

46,

You are making a specious or at best a self-serving argument.

Good trainers are given good horse because of their history of being good trainers and bad trainers do not get good horses because of their history of being bad trainers.

Yes, a bad horse sometimes falls into the hands of a good trainer and a good horse sometimes falls into the hands of a good trainer, but the situation typically corrects itself.

The analogy about Seattle Slew doesn’t “hold water” as Turner being the cause of Slew’s defeat in the 1977 Swaps. Slew came into that race after a grueling TC campaign (and it always is) and was shipped to the West Coast to face one of the fastest horses in training at the time in J.O. Tobin who clocked a 1:33 and change for the mile in that race.

Also Slew had problems with legitimate speed as he lost again 3 races later in the Patterson Handicap against another speedster in Dr. Patches and Doug Peterson was training Slew at the time.

I agree with you that winning a race is about the quality of the horse, but it is equally about the quality of the trainer. What Bobby Frankel did with Ghostzapper a chronic horse is phenomenal and the same could be said about Eddie Neloy with Buckpasser or how Frank Whiteley took over an aging Forego and won eleven races with all of them being graded stakes except one.