Why Not Cheat!!

[wizard_of_odds]

I see another cheater got a stay from his suspension!!..WTF Zadie,Assmussun,Wolfson,The list goes on...Looks like in my mind a trainer may as well cheat knowing the candyass powers that be are too afraid to do anything about this crap...I deplore how these guys get away with this as they smirk and giggle as they rake in the dough as us bettors get thrown under the bus...Kentucky people are chickenshit....The Calder managment arent doing much either...These guys should be not allowed to be on the grounds or around horses...It also isnt fair that they can put theirs horse in anyones name and continue the cheating. It almost makes a honest man think twice.The money that I bet isnt much but I bet I could get more for my money without these cheaters in the game.

[andymays]

You probably ought to read the Asmussen thread on the second page of this board. We went over a lot of this stuff on that thread.

This is the title!

Asmussen suspended for six months by Texas stewards

[happy]

See my posts headed FERGAL LYNCH. Google K. BURKE. See what we have to put up with in the UK.
Go to www.theracingforum.co.uk You will see that we have really lively debates and have contributers was all sided of racing as well some from the authorities.


IMO your US forums are good for getting answers but have none of the cut and thrust and jolly banter we have in the UK.

[andymays]

You probably ought to read the Asmussen thread on the second page of this board. We went over a lot of this stuff on that thread.

This is the title!

Asmussen suspended for six months by Texas stewards


Wizard, I didn't mean to stifle your thread or anything by my comments so I hope you don't take it that way. Just thought you might want to read the Asmussen thread that went over a lot on this issue!

[andymays]

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2009/07/21/a-little-tolerance.aspx

[Java Gold@TFT]

It's a Bird gets DQ'd for a positive and Wolfson gets a $500 fine while the owners have to give back a $300,000 purse. Now, there's justice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=4346317

[wisconsin]

It's a Bird gets DQ'd for a positive and Wolfson gets a $500 fine while the owners have to give back a $300,000 purse. Now, there's justice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=4346317


I'm guessing Wolfson has to give the owners back his $30,000 winners share as well.

[cj's dad]

I'm guessing Wolfson has to give the owners back his $30,000 winners share as well.

While you are probably correct, it still amounts to a $500 fine.

Folks have paid more than that for a speeding ticket.

[DJofSD]

I'm guessing Wolfson has to give the owners back his $30,000 winners share as well.
That's a good point I never considered before. Has the purse monies been paid out already or is the racing office still holding the funds? Is there any specific rules that cover the situation?

[DrugS]

I remember my father and grandfather telling me all of these stories about Oscar Barrera Sr. when I was a young boy and would go to the track to gamble with them.

I started betting regularly around 1990 - and that was the year Barrera Sr. went a combined 3-for-127 at Belmont Park.

The following year Barrera Sr. had that 0-for-106 year and was basically an auto toss.

In my time, the guy was an incompetent bum. He made Barerra Jr. look like Dick Mandella.

I was always curious about Barrera's career - because stats wise - from what I found in old ARM's and at the Keeneland library - he never did anything remotely special in his good years.

I looked up year after year and his all-time best year percentage wise when he started more than 100 horses was when he won at a 20.1% clip in '84.

There are a few claiming trainers now, across the country, who would consider the year a spectacular failure if they won at only a 20.1% clip.

Obviously though, I never needed to be around and see the time when Barrera had "the magic" to know he was a monumental cheat. I didn't need to see the move-ups or even know the names of those horses. I didn't need to know about any bad tests. No competent trainer can rationally have years that terrible sandwhiched in between such strength.

So, why not cheat? I can tell you this ... if I trained .. I would go to great lengths to take every single advantage I could possibly get away with.

I don't blame the guys and Steph Beattie's who take a big edge .. but it really makes the handicapping process as joyless as hell when so much attention has to be paid to the trainer factor. And not just the handicapping process, but how many 4 and 5 hour blocks of time are wasted on Monday's focusing on nothing but trainer stats and trends from across the country?

[Tom]

I remember an old joke about Oscar - seems a horse was entered in the first race for $14,000 for Frank Martin, and in the seventh for $35,000 for Oscar! :D

[DrugS]

What did he get caught with anyway?

In the Ragozin book it says Steroids... which I'm pretty sure were legal in a whole lot of places at the time.

[Java Gold@TFT]

When I first came into the mold with NY racing the usual term around the paddock was "Oscar Juice". Like the above joke, he could claim a horse on Wednesday and race back on Friday at a 50% increase. The best Oscar story was when he claimed Shifty Shiek for $25K and came within a half length of Slew O' Gold in the JCGC (or anothe Fall Belmont G-I).

The juice has been around for a long time. It's just a matter of how much better it gets regulated these days.

[Tom]

There is no price I would not pay a shot of that stuff! :p

[wizard_of_odds]

While you are probably correct, it still amounts to a $500 fine.

Folks have paid more than that for a speeding ticket.

The list goes on and on,The Bennetts father and son team at Tampa had a huge amount of bad tests at Tampa that were swept under the carpet.What about Jamie Ness who has syringes and injectible drugs in his barn when it was raided. I dont know why the management at these racetracks are afraid to do something...Wolfsons slap on the wrist just tells me it seems to be ok to cheat in the racing world.Are there any honest trainers left in this game?

[cj's dad]

The list goes on and on,The Bennetts father and son team at Tampa had a huge amount of bad tests at Tampa that were swept under the carpet.What about Jamie Ness who has syringes and injectible drugs in his barn when it was raided. I dont know why the management at these racetracks are afraid to do something...Wolfsons slap on the wrist just tells me it seems to be ok to cheat in the racing world.Are there any honest trainers left in this game?

I would venture to say that yes there are and more than likely are those at the middle to lower end of the trainer standings.

[ddog]

The list goes on and on,The Bennetts father and son team at Tampa had a huge amount of bad tests at Tampa that were swept under the carpet.What about Jamie Ness who has syringes and injectible drugs in his barn when it was raided. I dont know why the management at these racetracks are afraid to do something...Wolfsons slap on the wrist just tells me it seems to be ok to cheat in the racing world.Are there any honest trainers left in this game?


the trainers that WIN control the horses, the trainers that WIN get the owners , the tracks without horses are nothing.

It does make it easy to play some races when you can see who the "super" horsemen really are! ;)

[46zilzal]

It is the SUPER horses that make the super trainers and not the other way around. We have a competent journeyman trainer here, WHO, without the big stable that landed on him, would be a competent journeyman and NOT the top trainer on the grounds.

[ddog]

sorry, not true down here.

same horse - changes hands time after time, you can track when it runs big every time, if you know the trainers.

super horses don't hurt, but they are not the same deal as cheap not super horses that don the cape only under certain sheds.

[takeout]

I would like to see some justice for the customer in these after the fact DQ situations. When a winner gets DQ’ed due to a positive, the people that bet the horse that finished 2nd, to win, get screwed and stay screwed. (And no, I don’t believe it all evens out in the end.) And what about the ones where maybe big bets are cashed by the connections? They later lose the purse but they get to keep the winning bet money.

Almost everything we do is being tracked these days. It couldn’t be that hard for racing to put a mechanism in place to take care of this, fairly, for all. The customer, as usual, is not even thought about.

Back to topic: “Why not cheat!!”

You got me there. There sure doesn't seem to be many incentives not to. The way the game works it almost demands it. I think ddog "nut-shelled" it pretty well with this: "the trainers that WIN control the horses, the trainers that WIN get the owners , the tracks without horses are nothing." As far as I can see the game works against itself on almost every level.

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/105744.html


Gann, Wolfson plan appeal of It's a Bird decision!

Excerpt:

Meuser said he believes there are "due process issues" with the zero tolerance policy. Meuser said another point is that Wolfson followed the maximum recommended withdrawal times for the medication.
"The purpose of this regulation is keeping people from gaining an unfair advantage through use of medication," Meuser said. "The horse did not gain any competitive advantage, and even their chemist agreed with that and here we are dealing with forfeiture of a purse."

[CryingForTheHorses]

This is a thread I have been reading everyday since it was posted. This reallly burns my ass...I am a small trainer and you can bet if this was me,I would be down the road forever...This is just plain wrong in my eyes. I do everything within the rules of racing to put out a clean product and now have to worry about running against tainted entrees.This is a subject most horseman dont want to comment about and its about time that they did.The topic is 'Why Not Cheat"...As a trainer it almost make you want to load a horse up win the race and not worry....Thats not my style....These guys are making a mockery out of horseracing and also deflaming me as a trainer.Its about time the "Powers that Be" take a long hard look at their jobs because pretty soon this sport will be overrun with cheaters..

[ddog]

You said it well.

I have seen some that just laugh and wink at the "miracle job" done by the trainer for their horse.

It makes one sick to see it.

:ThmbDown:

[andymays]

This is a thread I have been reading everyday since it was posted. This reallly burns my ass...I am a small trainer and you can bet if this was me,I would be down the road forever...This is just plain wrong in my eyes. I do everything within the rules of racing to put out a clean product and now have to worry about running against tainted entrees.This is a subject most horseman dont want to comment about and its about time that they did.The topic is 'Why Not Cheat"...As a trainer it almost make you want to load a horse up win the race and not worry....Thats not my style....These guys are making a mockery out of horseracing and also deflaming me as a trainer.Its about time the "Powers that Be" take a long hard look at their jobs because pretty soon this sport will be overrun with cheaters..


I don't see how in either the Asmussen case or the Wolfson case they got away with anything. One is facing a 6 month suspension and the other lost a big purse. The do have the means to fight what they feel are bad tests and they are not alone in their opinions. It is similar to the justice system for the public where wealthier people get better lawyers.

The testing system worked so well it may have picked up traces of drugs so small that they probably didn't affect the results. Some experts believe the results were indicative of cross contamination. In the Wolfson case the expert for the Racing body said it didn't improve the horses performance.

Can anyone tell me if they test every horse in a race or only the ones that finish in the purse money?

And if it's the case that they don't test all horses in a race how do we know that these small trace amounts wouldn't show up in a last place finishers test?

[andymays]

One mistake I think most people are making is that they feel that racing officials are infallible. I'm sure most do a great job but in some cases not so much.

Take this thing in California with Ingrid Fermin (former head of CHRB) who wants to be a Steward at Del Mar. There are a lot of people including a retired investigator who make some serious allegations against her while she was in charge. When the hearing happens it will be interesting to see what comes out.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51791/chrb-to-examine-fermins-del-mar-role

Excerpt:

"They (the trainers) are appealing her ability to make an unbiased decision (where they are concerned)," Breed said. "We're (CHRB staff) recommending to the board that this issue be assigned to a deputy attorney general and that an OAL (office of administrative law) hearing be held."

Horse owner Jerry Jamgotchian first filed a complaint against the board over Fermin's appointment to the Del Mar post, which pays $26,000 to her as an independent contractor. Those now appealing Fermin's standing are trainers Jeff Mullins, Mike Mitchell, Doug O'Neill, Steve Knapp, Art Sherman, and Brian Koriner, as well as horse owner Sean Gerson, according to Jamgotchian.

Excerpt:

Jamgotchian contends Fermin illegally gambled on a horse race while a steward and engaged in illegal activities, cover-ups, and the targeting of certain trainers for investigations during her time as executive director.

Frank Moore, who was the agency's chief investigator during Fermin's tenure and is now retired, has filed a declaration in support of the charges, according to Jamgotchian.

[andymays]

http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2009/07/24/sports/horseracing/doc4a6937c18f53a438524288.txt

Excerpt:

My own experience with the periodic comments in this space about the subject is similar. However, I would have said most of the responses I’ve received have fallen into three categories: 1) Hang ’Em High, 2) Hang ’Em Higher, and, 3) Hang ’Em Higher and leave the corpse dangling from the tree as a warning to other evil doers.

Many racing fans and the state of Texas are prepared to do just that with Steve Asmussen, 2008's Eclipse winner as America’s outstanding Thoroughbred trainer. Asmussen, who has more than a dozen medication violations on his record, may be about to get penalized once again.

Excerpt:

There is a little thing in the U.S. constitution which says a defendant has the right to confront his accuser. Without the actual test results, Asmussen is being denied that fundamental right.

[Relwob Owner]

This is a thread I have been reading everyday since it was posted. This reallly burns my ass...I am a small trainer and you can bet if this was me,I would be down the road forever...This is just plain wrong in my eyes. I do everything within the rules of racing to put out a clean product and now have to worry about running against tainted entrees.This is a subject most horseman dont want to comment about and its about time that they did.The topic is 'Why Not Cheat"...As a trainer it almost make you want to load a horse up win the race and not worry....Thats not my style....These guys are making a mockery out of horseracing and also deflaming me as a trainer.Its about time the "Powers that Be" take a long hard look at their jobs because pretty soon this sport will be overrun with cheaters..


Nice post. Some of the same concepts apply to owners as well. To each is own but i would never use any trainer who I even suspected of doing anything illegal. I care about the horses I own and insist that my trainer feels the same way. Having this attitude makes it very, very hard to compete with the trainers who hit at almost unbelievable percentages. I also feel for trainers who do the right things and have to compete with some of the actions that allegedly go on. Good thing is that I have noticed in life that good things happen to good people who do good things and do things the right way. All I can hope is that the owners and trainers who feel the same way come out on top.

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2009/07/25/sports/horseracing/z7e2613eef2b466fd882575ff0000b4bf.txt
Excerpt:

DEL MAR ---- Martin Wygod, a member of the Del Mar Thoroughbred Club board of directors, asked steward Ingrid Fermin to recuse herself from Friday's second race and, according to sources, she did just that.

Good Article and we are seeing that funny business happens with Racing Officials as well.

[andymays]

Just wondering what this has to do with this threads topic?


Cheating is happening on both sides of the coin. Until we acknowledge that some Racing Officials use their positions of authority to influence the outcome of races we will be in denial of reality. This is just one example. The example of the Asmussen ruling in Texas is another.

I completely understand you position as an honest hard working owner/trainer. I believe that most Horseplayers along with people like yourself are misled by Racing Officials(not always but sometimes). Grandstanding for the public on some of these issues is hurting racing and decaying public confidence in the sport.

Much like Law Enforcement Officials the overwhelming majority are honest, hard working people with the publics interest in mind. Some though are not honest and do not have the public interest in mind. In the coming months more and more of this will come out.

[TejanoRun]

Andy, I recognize your "pro-trainer" view, but I think it is an inaccurate conclusion to suggest that more than a very very few racing officials be considered corrupt. I question the accuracy of the "evidence" against Fermin and wonder if she would take a tougher stand in stewards' rulings on trainers.

Clearly, if Fermin wagered on races while acting as a steward previously, then she has compromised the integrity of the position and should be removed from consideration. However, one must question the accuracy of the information coming from Jerry Jamgotchian. And when trainers opposed are Mullins, Mitchell and O'Neill, one should carefully consider why Fermin wouldn't make a good steward to represent the public. Will the stewards get too tough on trainers, and is that why these guys oppose her?

Personally, I think the California Horse Racing Board puts its head in the sand too much now and allows the trainers to get away with too much. I look at the Vet's List and the Stewards rulings every few days. I wish someone there could step up, but conversely there would be too few honest trainers and healthy horses left after a major crackdown, and it would be difficult to card more than two days a week. Though they - the CHRB - have argued they do more testing than any other state, I don't think the penalties or fines are severe enough and merely induce trainers to continue violating the rules. Where else are horses put on the vet's list for medication violations so the trainers can avoid getting a positive? And how does this protect the public?

** Anybody notice that Rail Trip was on and off the Vets List for months and ran in June while still on the list for "Medication"? And now Dewey's Special was on the list the day after winning an allowance and was still on the list 7/22, yet was permitted to enter (and won) the race at Del Mar yesterday? **

A quick point about Jamgotchian, after he accused former CHRB head Shapiro of keying his car, the LA Times article on this 5/12/09 said: "Jamgotchian also has filed numerous state public records act requests with the [California Racing] board and he often contacts media outlets regarding negative or embarrassing details about the board or racetrack owners."

Maybe he jjust has an axe to keep grinding against the CHRB.

[andymays]

Andy, I recognize your "pro-trainer" view, but I think it is an inaccurate conclusion to suggest that more than a very very few racing officials be considered corrupt. I question the accuracy of the "evidence" against Fermin and wonder if she would take a tougher stand in stewards' rulings on trainers.

Clearly, if Fermin wagered on races while acting as a steward previously, then she has compromised the integrity of the position and should be removed from consideration. However, one must question the accuracy of the information coming from Jerry Jamgotchian. And when trainers opposed are Mullins, Mitchell and O'Neill, one should carefully consider why Fermin wouldn't make a good steward to represent the public. Will the stewards get too tough on trainers, and is that why these guys oppose her?

Personally, I think the California Horse Racing Board puts its head in the sand too much now and allows the trainers to get away with too much. I look at the Vet's List and the Stewards rulings every few days. I wish someone there could step up, but conversely there would be too few honest trainers and healthy horses left after a major crackdown, and it would be difficult to card more than two days a week. Though they - the CHRB - have argued they do more testing than any other state, I don't think the penalties or fines are severe enough and merely induce trainers to continue violating the rules. Where else are horses put on the vet's list for medication violations so the trainers can avoid getting a positive? And how does this protect the public?

** Anybody notice that Rail Trip was on and off the Vets List for months and ran in June while still on the list for "Medication"? And now Dewey's Special was on the list the day after winning an allowance and was still on the list 7/22, yet was permitted to enter (and won) the race at Del Mar yesterday? **

A quick point about Jamgotchian, after he accused former CHRB head Shapiro of keying his car, the LA Times article on this 5/12/09 said: "Jamgotchian also has filed numerous state public records act requests with the [California Racing] board and he often contacts media outlets regarding negative or embarrassing details about the board or racetrack owners."

Maybe he jjust has an axe to keep grinding against the CHRB.


I am pro due process! And I am for applying testing procedures equally to all Trainers and not just the ones you haven't had a relationship with for 25 years! I am for competent Stewards that are consistent in their calls and don't repeatedly favor certain connections over others!

I don't think too many people who have kept an eye on California Racing the last few years would give the benefit of the doubt to either the Racing Executives or the Racing Officials in California. Their coverups of the true injury and breakdown statistics on synthetic surfaces are out in the open now and they are forced to admit synthetic surfaces were a mistake. Even Richard Shapiro himself admits it was a mistake.

Whether you like him or not Jamgotchian fights for what he believes in and lo and behold much of what he has been complaining about has come back to bite California Racing in the behind! If you have been following Jamgotchian there is no question he has an axe to grind and a good reasons for it! Go back and listen to some of the CHRB meeting archives. He seems like the only sane one there!

[proximity]

There is a little thing in the U.S. constitution which says a defendant has the right to confront his accuser. Without the actual test results, Asmussen is being denied that fundamental right.

the closer and closer a trainer gets to two dozen positives:eek: , ..... the less and less i care about that trainer's fundamental rights!!

[andymays]

the closer and closer a trainer gets to two dozen positives:eek: , ..... the less and less i care about that trainer's fundamental rights!!


I understand where you're coming from but that's part of the problem. I think many Racing Officials think the same way and won't hesitate to punish people for what they think they did.

Asmussen won the Training Title at Lone Star in spite of all the scrutiny so..

A. He's a great Trainer

B. He just has better stock than the other Trainers

C. He's using something they can't detect

I'll go with A!

[proximity]

I understand where you're coming from but that's part of the problem. I think many Racing Officials think the same way and won't hesitate to punish people for what they think they did.

Asmussen won the Training Title at Lone Star in spite of all the scrutiny so..

A. He's a great Trainer

B. He just has better stock than the other Trainers

C. He's using something they can't detect

I'll go with A!

i'll go with "D".......all of the above.:)

[andymays]

i'll go with "D".......all of the above.:)


Ok by me! I did my best to convince you otherwise.

Good choice to make your point by the way! ;)

[andymays]

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/chrb-drug-testing-doesnt-discriminate/


Excerpt:

There seems to be a belief among more than a few people in horse racing, including some trainers, that a state racing commission’s drug testing protocol goes something like this: Stewards call the testing lab and say, “The guy that won this race is a known cheater, and we don’t like him. Make sure you test his horse’s urine for everything under the sun.”

Good Article that adds to the debate. I'm glad all the information is coming out and people can decide for themeselves when it's all in!

[DJofSD]

Interesting reading. Thanks, Andy.

To point out the obvious: when the race has already been run, getting a report back from the lab weeks/months later does not do me any good. I've already bet on the event.

Finding out after the fact that I might have lost a wager b/c the horse that beat me had an unfair advantage, or, I won a bet when perhaps I should not have b/c my selection was running with a little illegal help, will only serve to make me angry. So you end up playing a guessing game called who's got the better drugs and/or vet.

[andymays]

Interesting reading. Thanks, Andy.

To point out the obvious: when the race has already been run, getting a report back from the lab weeks/months later does not do me any good. I've already bet on the event.

Finding out after the fact that I might have lost a wager b/c the horse that beat me had an unfair advantage, or, I won a bet when perhaps I should not have b/c my selection was running with a little illegal help, will only serve to make me angry. So you end up playing a guessing game called who's got the better drugs and/or vet.


It's a major head trip for the Horseplayer and it needs to be put to bed in a fair and responsible manner so the game can move forward!