Can Sports Betting on Track and Satellite Save Racing?

[andymays]

I believe that allowing Sports Betting on Track and Satellite only (not online so we can get people to the facilities) will get people to go to the Track in droves to make a sports bet.

The thing about having a Casino at a Track is that these people like a different kind of action. A machine player needs action every 5 seconds.

A Sports Bettor has action every 3 or 4 hours so Horse Racing is a natural fit. The Sports Bettor will embrace Horse Racing because it is a game of skill where he has action every half hour. I would imagine more than a few people will stay at the Track to watch their game. They will eat, drink, and maybe play a few races!

This will attract a new group of people to the Track (young people included)!

I think this makes too much sense so they will never try it! :bang:

I am sure this will work and save Racing if they give it a try.

What do you think?

[Irish Boy]

Maybe, but sports betting is a loss leader at many casinos. Bookies do well because they shade home teams, don't have to be competitive when it comes to exotic wagering, and because their clientele is often unsophisticated. Casino sports books often show losses in the short and medium terms. I see the point, and if it increased parimutuel handle, that'd be great, but a single bad loss (think 2008 Super Bowl) could wipe out a racetrack- or racetrack company- completely.

[andymays]

Maybe, but sports betting is a loss leader at many casinos. Bookies do well because they shade home teams, don't have to be competitive when it comes to exotic wagering, and because their clientele is often unsophisticated. Casino sports books often show losses in the short and medium terms. I see the point, and if it increased parimutuel handle, that'd be great, but a single bad loss (think 2008 Super Bowl) could wipe out a racetrack- or racetrack company- completely.


I think they would have to transmit their bets to Vegas or whoever for a small piece of the action. Remember they're trying to get people to the Track to play the Horses primarily!

People will pay admission and buy food and drink while they're at the Track. Hopefully 10% or more will stay and play the Horses while they watch their game!

[BUD]

I Think It will--Ur Assumption is correct--I think unless we are both wrong-In that case have a beer- or 6

[cj's dad]

I could be wrong but I believe it is coming to Delaware.

[andymays]

I could be wrong but I believe it is coming to Delaware.


I know they're trying but it needs to happen at every Race Track and Satellite facility in the country. It's a natural fit and most of the wagering machines are equipped to take Sports bets already (I think)!

[rrbauer]

A Sports Bettor has action every 3 or 4 hours so Horse Racing is a natural fit. The Sports Bettor will embrace Horse Racing because it is a game of skill where he has action every half hour. I would imagine more than a few people will stay at the Track to watch their game. They will eat, drink, and maybe play a few races!

What do you think?

Sports Bettor has action every 3 or 4 hours? Are you serious? Do you think that Sports Betting is a one-game-at-a-time proposition? And, which tracks other than Delaware Park will this happen at?

[andymays]

Sports Bettor has action every 3 or 4 hours? Are you serious? Do you think that Sports Betting is a one-game-at-a-time proposition? And, which tracks other than Delaware Park will this happen at?


My point is that everyone talks about Casinos saving Racing and I think that is misguided at best. Sports betting can save Racing if they give it a chance. There are currently no Indian Casinos taking Sports bets are there? Industry leaders should be pushing Sports Betting as of yesterday!

[Irish Boy]

I could be wrong but I believe it is coming to Delaware.

Only kinda. Delaware has legalized (actually, re-legalized) a parlay lottery game that involves NFL scores. But that's the extent of it, and it's rather limited, and it's a sucker play, although I have no doubt it will be wildly popular.


I think they would have to transmit their bets to Vegas or whoever for a small piece of the action. Remember they're trying to get people to the Track to play the Horses primarily!

People will pay admission and buy food and drink while they're at the Track. Hopefully 10% or more will stay and play the Horses while they watch their game!


I could possibly see that (apart from the illegality thing right now, but well assume the laws get changed, which would be great), but I think a lot of Vegas books would want no part of the action. The only reason most sports books exist is to get you to do other things while you're in there. Books come close to breaking even on bets alone at most books; add in drinks, services, etc. and they often lose money. Still, they'll gladly lose $50 a head in the sports book if they regain $100 at the craps table. They don't have much interest in taking huge, potentially sharp pools over the phone where they can't recoup those losses- at least without demanding a bigger vig. Maybe a few would want the pool regardless- chances are, for any individual game, they'll make money- but once again, we have to assume that they'll be willing to cooperate with an outside source enough to trust the bets are accurate, etc. I don't think they'd do that. And for the reasons I said above, I think that tracks would be reluctant to take huge risks in sports betting.

I'd be curious to see if, some day in the future, books (or tracks) would be willing to offer a parimuteul pool for sporting events on the moneyline. For example, take an NFL game between team A and team B, where 75% of the money comes in on team A and 25% on team B. The odds could be set to offer a very, very small takeout (say, +298 on team B and -402 on team A) and the places could skim still win every time. That seems like a game the tracks could easily play... if only it were legal.

[cj's dad]

Sports Bettor has action every 3 or 4 hours? Are you serious? Do you think that Sports Betting is a one-game-at-a-time proposition? And, which tracks other than Delaware Park will this happen at?

My understanding Rich is that the state of Delaware can have have sports betting see below:

The Delaware Senate voted in favor of Gov. Jack Markell's proposal to legalize sports betting in the state on Tuesday by a vote of 17-2. Markell is expected to sign the bill into law later this week.

"It's time to move forward and ensure the Delaware Sports Lottery is a success," Markell said after the vote. "This will generate critical revenue to help fund our core commitments."

Delaware is one of only four states in the country -- along with Nevada, Oregon and Montana -- that had sports betting laws on its books when Congress passed the 1992 Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act, which banned states from being in the bookmaking business.

[Irish Boy]

My understanding Rich is that the state of Delaware can have have sports betting see below:

The Delaware Senate voted in favor of Gov. Jack Markell's proposal to legalize sports betting in the state on Tuesday by a vote of 17-2. Markell is expected to sign the bill into law later this week.

"It's time to move forward and ensure the Delaware Sports Lottery is a success," Markell said after the vote. "This will generate critical revenue to help fund our core commitments."

Delaware is one of only four states in the country -- along with Nevada, Oregon and Montana -- that had sports betting laws on its books when Congress passed the 1992 Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act, which banned states from being in the bookmaking business.

Once again, however, it's for a limited purpose. You can't just plunk down $50 bucks on Dallas at a bar in Dover. You can play their Delaware Lottery game where you pick X number of winners and get back a certain, woefully inadequate return, and that's it.

[Charli125]

Maybe, but sports betting is a loss leader at many casinos. Bookies do well because they shade home teams, don't have to be competitive when it comes to exotic wagering, and because their clientele is often unsophisticated. Casino sports books often show losses in the short and medium terms. I see the point, and if it increased parimutuel handle, that'd be great, but a single bad loss (think 2008 Super Bowl) could wipe out a racetrack- or racetrack company- completely.

I disagree. The books, even the ones in vegas, all move their lines pretty much together. In the perfect world, the books have even money on each side, and take the vig, that's why the lines change. In the rare case that they do take a stand, they're right much more often than they're wrong(yes, the 2008 SB was a bad one, but just think how much they make during College FB season). Sure, they could have some short-term losses, but it's going to make money overall.

But like the other poster said, the money would need to be sent to vegas. They already have the neccessary software, hardware, and know-how to get it done, and they have enough capital to weather the short-term losses)

[Irish Boy]

I disagree. The books, even the ones in vegas, all move their lines pretty much together. In the perfect world, the books have even money on each side, and take the vig, that's why the lines change. In the rare case that they do take a stand, they're right much more often than they're wrong(yes, the 2008 SB was a bad one, but just think how much they make during College FB season). Sure, they could have some short-term losses, but it's going to make money overall.

That's a myth. Very few books try to balance money in each side. Books bet on teams just like bettors do, because bettors are (over time) wrong in very predictable ways. I go back to the 2008 super bowl because it's a clear example, but there are a handful of glaring ones each week- the books were actively avoiding balancing the action. They wanted money to roll in on New York, and encouraged betting on New York throughout the week... then got reamed (something like 95% of the money bet on the moneyline was bet on New York, and they had to pay it out at 4 to 1. Ouch.) This happens every week, and Vegas wins some and loses some.

The lines move together because most lines come from a single consortium. Books don't want to be the part of a middling game played by bettors.

[phatbastard]

''Lemons has indicated Delaware plans to allow bettors to wager on the outcome of a single game''

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/top_three/article_12a42a16-71ad-11de-8837-001cc4c002e0.html

[Irish Boy]

The article is misleading. You need to read between the lines:


Delaware Gov. Jack Markell signed legislation in May legalizing sports betting and casino table games at the racetrack slot parlors. Delaware's lottery commission soon will approve the hiring of a private contractor to oversee the sports betting system for the state, including the setting of odds.

Rephrase: the state will be the bookie. This is a lottery game.


Delaware is just one of four states, along with Nevada, Montana and Oregon, that were grandfathered under a 1992 federal law that bans sports betting. Those states had some form of sports betting laws at the time or before the federal law was introduced. Delaware was exempted because of its sports lottery in the 1970s.

In other words, they can't have a different system than that exempted by federal law, which was the old one, which was a state run lottery system. If you want to bet into state lottery football games, with state lottery vigs, you're going to lose your shirt.

[phatbastard]

that remains to be seen.....they truly think they will have str8 betting

[fmolf]

the reason they wereencouraging money on new york was because they would have taken a bath if new england covered.the way they encourage people to bet ny is to give them extra points or give them a money line.
I agree Andy i think it would help.It couldn't hurt,my son just got back to new york after living in delaware and he said the sports betting will be similar to the white parlay tickets, where you choose between three and ten teams,ties lose and the payoffs are horrible underlaid.

[Irish Boy]

the reason they wereencouraging money on new york was because they would have taken a bath if new england covered.the way they encourage people to bet ny is to give them extra points or give them a money line.

About 2/3rds of the money on the spread came in on New York as well.

[Relwob Owner]

That's a myth. Very few books try to balance money in each side. Books bet on teams just like bettors do, because bettors are (over time) wrong in very predictable ways. I go back to the 2008 super bowl because it's a clear example, but there are a handful of glaring ones each week- the books were actively avoiding balancing the action. They wanted money to roll in on New York, and encouraged betting on New York throughout the week... then got reamed (something like 95% of the money bet on the moneyline was bet on New York, and they had to pay it out at 4 to 1. Ouch.) This happens every week, and Vegas wins some and loses some.

The lines move together because most lines come from a single consortium. Books don't want to be the part of a middling game played by bettors.


You say that Vegas books doesnt want to balance money.....why not? Getting the same amount on both sides is a guaranteed win of the juice while having uneven action is a gamble on their part.....you say that gamblers are "wrong in predictable ways" but I dont see the sense in the casinos gambling when they can be guaranteed a win......

[Irish Boy]

First, balancing the money is harder than it sounds. Casinos avoid having to move the lines like the plague, especially when they've been set at certain points (3, 3.5, 7 are prominent examples). The last thing in the world they want is sharps being able to play both sides of a middle, especially because these are the types of moves that are most used by squares.

The principal reason why books take uneven action is because, despite the fact that sports bets are essentially binary (you win or lose), the square bettor regularly wins less than 50% of his bets. I don't feel like going through mathematically, but if you start form this premise, it follows algebrecally that the books will win more money by betting against the incorrect majority than they would by balancing action, especially since the public's mistakes are entirely predictable, while hitting that perfect 50/50 line is much tougher.

[andymays]

Just to get it back on track a little.


Can Sports Betting on Track and Satellite Save Racing?

[Relwob Owner]

Just to get it back on track a little.


Can Sports Betting on Track and Satellite Save Racing?


I am sure it would have some logistical barriers.....however, it definitely couldnt hurt. One thing that you did point out which I think would be huge is that it would help with the younger crowd. You would have people who already are gambling near to the sport and more likely to cross over.

[cj]

I am sure it would have some logistical barriers.....however, it definitely couldnt hurt!

Of course it could hurt. Didn't we hear this same argument about slots? I would imagine many horseplayers would divert their action to one with a 5% takeout, while approximately ZERO sports bettors would be betting on horses.

[andymays]

Of course it could hurt. Didn't we hear this same argument about slots? I would imagine many horseplayers would divert their action to one with a 5% takeout, while approximately ZERO sports bettors would be betting on horses.


I believe it's more likely to work the other way around. Many Sports Bettors will play the Horses instead. Mainly because of the odds. Sports Bettors think 6-1 on a three teamer is great but wait till they invest $20 and get a couple thousand back! Just one time gets em!

[Irish Boy]

Of course it could hurt. Didn't we hear this same argument about slots? I would imagine many horseplayers would divert their action to one with a 5% takeout, while approximately ZERO sports bettors would be betting on horses.

I'm not sure that's a perfect analogy. Slots is constant action, non-stop. Sports betting requires a bet, then 2-3 hours of inaction. If you stay at the place of betting for those hours, and you have money to spend, there's a good chance you drop some money on the horses as well. At the very least, getting feet in the door helps. And I bet that there's a high correlation of would-be horse players and sports bettors than there is for slots players and horse players.

[Relwob Owner]

Of course it could hurt. Didn't we hear this same argument about slots? I would imagine many horseplayers would divert their action to one with a 5% takeout, while approximately ZERO sports bettors would be betting on horses.


Racing could get worse than it is now? Doubt it.....


You say that "many horseplayers would divert their action to one with a 5% takeout"....so, you think that if sports betting and horse racing were at one place, a horseplayer would suddenly figure out that they can bet on sports? I think it is safe to assume most horseplayers already know about sports betting and would keep their money on horses.....plus, if I am not mistaken, the takeout isnt 5 percent on sports betting, it is 10 and in some places, even higher on over/under bets.......

Plus, I think if someone came to sit and bet on a sporting event you can be fairly sure that the person would also bet on horses....

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not sure that's a perfect analogy. Slots is constant action, non-stop. Sports betting requires a bet, then 2-3 hours of inaction. If you stay at the place of betting for those hours, and you have money to spend, there's a good chance you drop some money on the horses as well. At the very least, getting feet in the door helps. And I bet that there's a high correlation of would-be horse players and sports bettors than there is for slots players and horse players.


Great point about the correlation of slots/ horse bettors and sports/horse bettors. Take Charlestonw for example-with their setup, the slots are so separate from the horses, people never even know there is racing. If you had sports betting, the two could easily intermingled and my guess would be a higher overall handle for each.

[Irish Boy]

I'd be curious to know how the betting breaks down at books in Vegas. Someone out there knows, I'm sure. I wouldn't be shocked if your average Thursday baseball crowd plays races between games. You're not getting a ton of extra horse action during March Madness... although winners are more likely to try to "press their luck" if their on premesis.

One thing that I've always found interesting is that horse players, in general and at least anecdotally, are awful sports bettors. It's probably hard to master a number of sports. (I suck at handicapping horses... doesn't keep me from trying though).

[Jeff P]

Allow me to suggest something completely out there.

Why should racing have to even think about resorting to gambling games other than racing to save racing?

Do gambling games other than racing have the ability to kick racing's ass when it comes to creating new customers and growing handle?

If so, why?

Hint: takeout.

Slots are immensely popular. But then aren't most slot machines in this day and age programmed to return more than 90 cents for every dollar wagered? And that equates to (what?) less than 10 percent takeout, right?

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Instead of using other forms of gambling (that offer lower takeout than racing) to "save" racing...

Is it too much of a stretch to think maybe it's time for racing to stand up and COMPETE with the other forms of low takeout gambling that have been kicking racing's ass for more than a decade?

Color me blind deaf and dumb if you want. But I happen to think that racing offered at 9 to 10 percent takeout every pool everywhere every day (marketed as the best gambling game on the planet) very quickly turns things around and finds itself kicking the collective asses of every other gambling game known to man.



-jp

.

[Relwob Owner]

I'd be curious to know how the betting breaks down at books in Vegas. Someone out there knows, I'm sure. I wouldn't be shocked if your average Thursday baseball crowd plays races between games. You're not getting a ton of extra horse action during March Madness... although winners are more likely to try to "press their luck" if their on premesis.

One thing that I've always found interesting is that horse players, in general and at least anecdotally, are awful sports bettors. It's probably hard to master a number of sports. (I suck at handicapping horses... doesn't keep me from trying though).


In Vegas, you can see it happening in the sports books(if I remember correctly-it has been a few years) .The horses and sports books are side by side at most places and you can see people doing both all day and night long....

[cj]

The basic take on sports is 10%, but if you shop around you can get as low as 5%, at least on football.

[Cangamble]

Allow me to suggest something completely out there.

Why should racing have to even think about resorting to gambling games other than racing to save racing?

Do gambling games other than racing have the ability to kick racing's ass when it comes to creating new customers and growing handle?

If so, why?

Hint: takeout.

Slots are immensely popular. But then aren't most slot machines in this day and age programmed to return more than 90 cents for every dollar wagered? And that equates to (what?) less than 10 percent takeout, right?

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Instead of using other forms of gambling (that offer lower takeout than racing) to "save" racing...

Is it too much of a stretch to think maybe it's time for racing to stand up and COMPETE with the other forms of low takeout gambling that have been kicking racing's ass for more than a decade?

Color me blind deaf and dumb if you want. But I happen to think that racing offered at 9 to 10 percent takeout every pool everywhere every day (marketed as the best gambling game on the planet) very quickly turns things around and finds itself kicking the collective asses of every other gambling game known to man.



-jp

.
Actually the takeout on football is much less than 10%. Two people match $100 bets, one takes the fave, the other the dog, $200 is bet and only $10 goes to the house.

[Irish Boy]

It would help, but it's not that easy. There are 32 NFL teams. There are 120 college football teams, and people tend to follow the 10-12 in their conference and a handful of other top teams. Same in college basketball. These are the big three betting games. Sports bettors get sucked into a false sense of knowledge because of the familiarity, and this leads to betting accessibility and a belief that they can beat the game. For most- almost all, in fact- this is absolutely untrue.

There are how many thousands of thoroughbreds in the US? It's impossible to follow them all; it's tough to even keep up on all the 3 year olds during the Derby chase. Granted, you can get PPs and study those for any race, but that involves a level of unfamiliarity that football does not. People watch football, learn football, and think they can beat it. Horse racing just doesn't have the same dynamic, and never will. Marginally lower takeouts will help- I don't deny that- but not nearly as much as current horse players think.

[Relwob Owner]

Allow me to suggest something completely out there.

Why should racing have to even think about resorting to gambling games other than racing to save racing?

Do gambling games other than racing have the ability to kick racing's ass when it comes to creating new customers and growing handle?

If so, why?

Hint: takeout.

Slots are immensely popular. But then aren't most slot machines in this day and age programmed to return more than 90 cents for every dollar wagered? And that equates to (what?) less than 10 percent takeout, right?

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Instead of using other forms of gambling (that offer lower takeout than racing) to "save" racing...

Is it too much of a stretch to think maybe it's time for racing to stand up and COMPETE with the other forms of low takeout gambling that have been kicking racing's ass for more than a decade?

Color me blind deaf and dumb if you want. But I happen to think that racing offered at 9 to 10 percent takeout every pool everywhere every day (marketed as the best gambling game on the planet) very quickly turns things around and finds itself kicking the collective asses of every other gambling game known to man.



-jp

.


Question for you or anyone else.....what percentage of money do most tracks get from money bet with ADW's......seems to be that tracks sold their signals a long time ago before they realized people would be betting at home....I have heard the ADW's get a huge and somewhat disproportionate slice of the pie and I always wonder if the tracks could have a lower takeout if they could figure out a way to get rid of the ADW's....maybe logistically impossible....the only thing I could think of would be tracks getting together and having the own joint ADW and market their own track, signal and features individually....I know this would be tough but just an idea....

[Relwob Owner]

The basic take on sports is 10%, but if you shop around you can get as low as 5%, at least on football.


Where?

[andymays]

Allow me to suggest something completely out there.

Why should racing have to even think about resorting to gambling games other than racing to save racing?

Do gambling games other than racing have the ability to kick racing's ass when it comes to creating new customers and growing handle?

If so, why?

Hint: takeout.

Slots are immensely popular. But then aren't most slot machines in this day and age programmed to return more than 90 cents for every dollar wagered? And that equates to (what?) less than 10 percent takeout, right?

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Instead of using other forms of gambling (that offer lower takeout than racing) to "save" racing...

Is it too much of a stretch to think maybe it's time for racing to stand up and COMPETE with the other forms of low takeout gambling that have been kicking racing's ass for more than a decade?

Color me blind deaf and dumb if you want. But I happen to think that racing offered at 9 to 10 percent takeout every pool everywhere every day (marketed as the best gambling game on the planet) very quickly turns things around and finds itself kicking the collective asses of every other gambling game known to man.-jp

.


At 9 to 10 percent Racing becomes the best bet on the planet!

I was with Barry Abrams (Ca Trainer and Breeder of Unusual Heat) yesterday morning at Del Mar. He is responsible for over 140 Horses. The expense is insane and unless purses are increased dramatically in California it is going under sooner than people think.

How do you get to 9 or 10 percent take in the real world?

Having Sports Betting at the Track or Satellite is a natural fit in my opinion!

[cj]

Where?

I'm not doing all the work here! :)

But, as cangamble showed, it is lower anyway.

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not doing all the work here! :)

But, as cangamble showed, it is lower anyway.



Gotcha.....thanks for the lead and I will try to find that 5%! Will still bet horses though:)

[DeanT]

I don't think it would help. Whenever a new game is added to a track area the bet goes down. In Canada we have the sports betting system with parlays and they are located right at the slots area. People will pop some cash in there, but will not look at the track.

I sit in the books in Vegas and playing the Meadowlands from 4:30 onwards I would watch the bettors to see how many came over from the sports book for racing and I did not see one. I was not really amazed. High takeout, a tough game to learn and why bet it when you can sit and have a beer or two with your friends watching the game on a big screen with a Benjamin on it?

Regardless, one way or another we will find out. Woodbine Entertainment is lobbying hard to get that added to the racino menu here in Canada. I put the odds on them getting single game betting passed at less than even money. I bet we'll see it within five years and we will have a good case study for racing. There is oodles of bettors in the Toronto area that would be more than a big enough sample.

[Cangamble]

At 9 to 10 percent Racing becomes the best bet on the planet!

I was with Barry Abrams (Ca Trainer and Breeder of Unusual Heat) yesterday morning at Del Mar. He is responsible for over 140 Horses. The expense is insane and unless purses are increased dramatically in California it is going under sooner than people think.

How do you get to 9 or 10 percent take in the real world?

Having Sports Betting at the Track or Satellite is a natural fit in my opinion!
If takeouts were reduced to 10%, I wouldn't be surprised if handle triples.
Again, lower takeouts equals more handle, it also means more people will last longer and will wind up involving more friends and family to participate in the game, or at least get exposed to it.
Also, the winners created will give horse racing tremendous advertising. Gamblers who bet on other things will go after this carrot.

[andymays]

If takeouts were reduced to 10%, I wouldn't be surprised if handle triples.
Again, lower takeouts equals more handle, it also means more people will last longer and will wind up involving more friends and family to participate in the game, or at least get exposed to it.
Also, the winners created will give horse racing tremendous advertising. Gamblers who bet on other things will go after this carrot.


To do that we need less Race Tracks. If we only had 2 Race Tracks to bet at any given time the handle at those Tracks would more than triple. The problem is that that's not reality. Sports Betting on Track or Satellite will work!

[andymays]

I don't think it would help. Whenever a new game is added to a track area the bet goes down. In Canada we have the sports betting system with parlays and they are located right at the slots area. People will pop some cash in there, but will not look at the track.

I sit in the books in Vegas and playing the Meadowlands from 4:30 onwards I would watch the bettors to see how many came over from the sports book for racing and I did not see one. I was not really amazed. High takeout, a tough game to learn and why bet it when you can sit and have a beer or two with your friends watching the game on a big screen with a Benjamin on it?

Regardless, one way or another we will find out. Woodbine Entertainment is lobbying hard to get that added to the racino menu here in Canada. I put the odds on them getting single game betting passed at less than even money. I bet we'll see it within five years and we will have a good case study for racing. There is oodles of bettors in the Toronto area that would be more than a big enough sample.

In California it would be huge. Remember, no Casinos can have sports betting and it has to be on Track or Satellite not online!

[proximity]

To do that we need less Race Tracks. If we only had 2 Race Tracks to bet at any given time the handle at those Tracks would more than triple. The problem is that that's not reality. Sports Betting on Track or Satellite will work!

i actually think we need "more" tracks..... as in some kind of worldwide simulcasting network. we need to get these people from hong kong wagering into our pools.

[DeanT]

In California it would be huge. Remember, no Casinos can have sports betting and it has to be on Track or Satellite not online!

Would not a likely scenario be: Sports bettor comes to track, bets football game. Wins half his bets, breaks about even. Goes home but stops and bets two races on the way out. Loses. Next week, wins his two football games and makes money. Bets a couple races, loses. The following week, bets football, breaks even, but this time goes right to his car because he is tired of losing at racing.

I think with it at tracks, more and more people who bet racing would play football, because it is easier to churn at only having to have a 52.4% hit rate, and they have been tired of betting racing and losing at 22% takeouts all these years.

I think handle would go down. It always does when we put ourselves against low vig games.

[andymays]

Would not a likely scenario be: Sports bettor comes to track, bets football game. Wins half his bets, breaks about even. Goes home but stops and bets two races on the way out. Loses. Next week, wins his two football games and makes money. Bets a couple races, loses. The following week, bets football, breaks even, but this time goes right to his car because he is tired of losing at racing.

I think with it at tracks, more and more people who bet racing would play football, because it is easier to churn at and they have been tired of betting racing and losing at 22% takeouts.

I think handle would go down. It always does when we put ourselves against low vig games.


Most Gamblers want action. They are not disciplined people in general. Most people that bet on sports do it because they want some competition that involves skill. Sports Betting and Horse Racing are a natural much more so than slots.

Why do we want slot players at the Track?

[Cangamble]

To do that we need less Race Tracks. If we only had 2 Race Tracks to bet at any given time the handle at those Tracks would more than triple. The problem is that that's not reality. Sports Betting on Track or Satellite will work!
Just plain wrong.
Betfair has track after track after track going all day. Their low house edge allows players to get a huge bang for their bucks, and it gives them the illusion that they aren't losing that much, and even more, the illusion/reality that they are a few systems/methods away from becoming winners.

[andymays]

Just plain wrong.
Betfair has track after track after track going all day. Their low house edge allows players to get a huge bang for their bucks, and it gives them the illusion that they aren't losing that much, and even more, the illusion/reality that they are a few systems/methods away from becoming winners.

We're talking about Racing in the United States. What are the odds of getting this Betfair system in the United States?

[proximity]

Sports Betting and Horse Racing are a natural much more so than slots.


plus, let's be honest, a lot of guys you regularly see at the track already are betting football anyhow. your idea may hurt some local bookies, but i can't see it being bad for racing......

[Cangamble]

We're talking about Racing in the United States.
And I'm talking about gambling and the power of lower takeouts/bigger rebates.
It doesn't matter where the gambler is betting. Lower takeouts means the player will last longer and play more races.

[Relwob Owner]

Would not a likely scenario be: Sports bettor comes to track, bets football game. Wins half his bets, breaks about even. Goes home but stops and bets two races on the way out. Loses. Next week, wins his two football games and makes money. Bets a couple races, loses. The following week, bets football, breaks even, but this time goes right to his car because he is tired of losing at racing.

I think with it at tracks, more and more people who bet racing would play football, because it is easier to churn at only having to have a 52.4% hit rate, and they have been tired of betting racing and losing at 22% takeouts all these years.

I think handle would go down. It always does when we put ourselves against low vig games.

Right but in your example you said "sports bettor comes to the track"....arent any bets he/she makes bets that wouldnt have occurred without the combo of sports/horses? Also, what if he/she wins and like a lot of us, lets trying to recapture the feeling of winning outweigh the negative odds of doing so? Plus, he/she might learn to handicap and turn into a fan that enjoys the sport so much that they ignore the negative takout rate.........I am perfectly aware of the higher takeout with horses. However, I love the challenge and figuring out each race and all of it's complexities....your "sports bettor" may just find out the same thing....

[Cangamble]

plus, let's be honest, a lot of guys you regularly see at the track already are betting football anyhow. your idea may hurt some local bookies, but i can't see it being bad for racing......
Bookies always have the bet on credit angle going for them. When people bring hard cash to the track, and sports betting is there, it is inevitable that sports betting will cannibalize the horse racing handle in most instances.
I think an exception could be Fort Erie, where it might attract bettors from Buffalo who would not normally go to the track or bet on Fort Erie.

[andymays]

And I'm talking about gambling and the power of lower takeouts/bigger rebates.
It doesn't matter where the gambler is betting. Lower takeouts means the player will last longer and play more races.


At some point we have to talk about what is possible. As it stands for the near future significantly (5 to 10 points)lowering the take is a non starter. These Tracks, Owners, Breeders, and Trainers are on their last legs.

What don't people understand about that? The losses these guys are incurring trying to bring Horses to the Races right now are astonishing. Going in the hole at 10k or 80k per month doesn't work for long!

[DeanT]

Most Gamblers want action. They are not disciplined people in general. Most people that bet on sports do it because they want some competition that involves skill. Sports Betting and Horse Racing are a natural much more so than slots.

Why do we want slot players at the Track?

Sure, it is a different game and I completely understand that. But when we are up against those games we lose. Mountaineer has their card room, on track. It is a skill game too, but they have zero crossover. I think their on track handle is about $30,000, and that is horsepeople betting. It sure is not hard to get a seat. I was completely amazed that zero of those card players were even watching the race while it was going off 100 feet from where they were standing.

One thing we always have to remember with this, imo, is that gamblers do not have unlimited bankrolls, and you are exactly right - they will bet things. You are focusing on sports bettors coming over to bet racing, but you are neglecting the opposite happening with racing bettors crossing over the other way. Being a frequenter of a racino here I can tell you that when a horseplayer makes a score, he is looking for action too. The races are over, the simo is over. They would head to the sports betting area and blow some money. If they lose it, their bankroll for playing racing is gone for tomorrow.

It is currently happening with slots, eventho horseplayers are not the same as slots players, not even close. It is the "slots drag" and it is a bankroll killer for racing bettors at racinos. I have seen many people hit the last race, be up $2000 and when I speak to them the next day they want to bum cash because they are broke. "Stupid slots" they say. Adding more things to the menu has always been anti-churn for horseplayers, and I honestly do not see that changing. Adding one more betting item to a racetrack will always mean that horseplayers will just have one more chance to go broke before the races the next day.

[Cangamble]

At some point we have to talk about what is possible. As it stands for the near future significantly (5 to 10 points)lowering the take is a non starter. These Tracks, Owners, and Trainers are on their last legs.

What don't people understand about that? The losses these guys are incurring trying to bring Horses to the Races right now are astonishing.
I think you are having a hard time grasping the fact that if 1 billion is bet during a specific period at a 20% takeout, most likely 2.5 to 3 billion would be bet if takeout was 10%.

10% of 2.5 billion is greater than 20% of 1 billion for the industry.

Owners and trainers would have more money to split up.

[WinterTriangle]

Oaklawn just expanded it's Casino area. I dunno, let me give another perspective on this. You'd be surprised how many guys can get down to the track if they can keep their wives busy upstairs in the casino. I say this because let's face it, less women play horses than slots, or at least, that's what i see and hear, based on just observation and talking to gals my age. :) (I have to DRAG women friends to the track, and I have yet to introduce anyone to it where it "took" long term. LOL!)

So, they can go together, meet up in a specified amount of time for dinner in one of the on track restaurants.

As for attention span (which you call action), I can't find anyone to play chess anymore. It's too slow. Baseball ditto. Too slow. Those of us that have focus and concentration, and like this kind of stuff are just a different lot.

You'd also be surprised the amount of both genders I've tried to introduce to horse racing. They are too lazy to do the research and the work. I guess it's easier to pull a handle? :bang:

I mean, you just have to enjoy it, like we do, but not everyone does.

I'm thinking it all has more to do with the lifestyles and fast pace nowadays.

As for going to the track, I only go when there's live horses running. I can't bear simulcasting, I have to keep track of paper tickets, I can't relax anywhere comfortable, the lighting is AWFUL, the food is too expensive and I don't eat junk food anyway, which is mostly what's available quickly from the vendors. I usually lose my pen or my glasses about an hour into things. It's just easier to stay home, watch TVG, and use my online account when live horses aren't running at Oaklawn.

YOu know, unless you have BUCKS, and can get a reserved parking space and boxed seats... it's increasingly tiring for me as I get older and I feel quite exhausted after a day at the track!

At Oaklawn, the seats are stacked so steep, going up and down the stairs to the ticket window is murder on bad knees.

These are all things that affect attendance?

[andymays]

I think you are having a hard time grasping the fact that if 1 billion is bet during a specific period at a 20% takeout, most likely 2.5 to 3 billion would be bet if takeout was 10%.

10% of 2.5 billion is greater than 20% of 1 billion for the industry.

Owners and trainers would have more money to split up.


I agree with you so why isn't anyone here doing it?

And what makes you think they will do it?

[Irish Boy]

Sure, it is a different game and I completely understand that. But when we are up against those games we lose. Mountaineer has their card room, on track. It is a skill game too, but they have zero crossover. I think their on track handle is about $30,000, and that is horsepeople betting. It sure is not hard to get a seat. I was completely amazed that zero of those card players were even watching the race while it was going off 100 feet from where they were standing.

One thing we always have to remember with this, imo, is that gamblers do not have unlimited bankrolls, and you are exactly right - they will bet things. You are focusing on sports bettors coming over to bet racing, but you are neglecting the opposite happening with racing bettors crossing over the other way. Being a frequenter of a racino here I can tell you that when a horseplayer makes a score, he is looking for action too. The races are over, the simo is over. They would head to the sports betting area and blow some money. If they lose it, their bankroll for playing racing is gone for tomorrow.

It is currently happening with slots, eventho horseplayers are not the same as slots players, not even close. It is the "slots drag" and it is a bankroll killer for racing bettors at racinos. I have seen many people hit the last race, be up $2000 and when I speak to them the next day they want to bum cash because they are broke. "Stupid slots" they say. Adding more things to the menu has always been anti-churn for horseplayers, and I honestly do not see that changing.

If that's true- and it might be- horse racing is dead. You can only be sheltered from competition for so long.

[Irish Boy]

I think you are having a hard time grasping the fact that if 1 billion is bet during a specific period at a 20% takeout, most likely 2.5 to 3 billion would be bet if takeout was 10%.

10% of 2.5 billion is greater than 20% of 1 billion for the industry.

Owners and trainers would have more money to split up.

Those are some mighty big assumptions you are making.

[andymays]

If that's true- and it might be- horse racing is dead. You can only be sheltered from competition for so long.


From everything I read and see it is in intensive care and the prognosis is not good!

[proximity]

Bookies always have the bet on credit angle going for them. When people bring hard cash to the track, and sports betting is there, it is inevitable that sports betting will cannibalize the horse racing handle in most instances.
I think an exception could be Fort Erie, where it might attract bettors from Buffalo who would not normally go to the track or bet on Fort Erie.

good point that some money that could be repeatedly churned for a few hours would otherwise be tied up, but overall i see it as a plus. even some new bettors, skeptical of doing business with bookies would be drawn to the legal betting and they'd be exposed to racing as a year round gambling option. i'd see football as being by far the most popular target for sports betting and that would only tie up 16 fall sundays and 12 saturdays (plus playoffs).

[Cangamble]

I agree with you so why isn't anyone here doing it?

And what makes you think they will do it?
It takes the whole industry to do it, or at least about 5 or 6 major tracks to do it.
And I never said it would be done. The industry is far too dysfunctional to erase their mindsets and move into the future.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Huh?

Pinnacle deals football at -104/-104. That is a hold/takeout of 1.92%.

Now add in a little line shopping (finding -6 when a game is -6.5, or going to matchbook and seeing that they have most games at -101/-101 or less) and you should be able to easily lower your takeout to 0% unless you are betting huge amounts.

[Cangamble]

Those are some mighty big assumptions you are making.
Based on what we've seen at Betfair, I think my assumptions are on the conservative side.

[andymays]

It takes the whole industry to do it, or at least about 5 or 6 major tracks to do it.
And I never said it would be done. The industry is far too dysfunctional to erase their mindsets and move into the future.

It seems to me that at this point in time that Sports Betting is a viable solution. A case could be made that because of the situation all the States are in makeing it happen in the next year or so isn't that much of a stretch.

On the other hand what you're suggesting is a stetch in my opinion. We can go on theory and argue till we all die or we can take what might be a half assed solution and run with it!

[rwwupl]

Allow me to suggest something completely out there.

Why should racing have to even think about resorting to gambling games other than racing to save racing?

Do gambling games other than racing have the ability to kick racing's ass when it comes to creating new customers and growing handle?

If so, why?

Hint: takeout.

Slots are immensely popular. But then aren't most slot machines in this day and age programmed to return more than 90 cents for every dollar wagered? And that equates to (what?) less than 10 percent takeout, right?

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Instead of using other forms of gambling (that offer lower takeout than racing) to "save" racing...

Is it too much of a stretch to think maybe it's time for racing to stand up and COMPETE with the other forms of low takeout gambling that have been kicking racing's ass for more than a decade?

Color me blind deaf and dumb if you want. But I happen to think that racing offered at 9 to 10 percent takeout every pool everywhere every day (marketed as the best gambling game on the planet) very quickly turns things around and finds itself kicking the collective asses of every other gambling game known to man.



-jp

.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have nothing against sports betting,and maybe that is a possibility.

But Jeff makes a good point. Horse racing has operated at an economic disadvantage for too long concerning the competition,so that is the real problem. The people do love racing,but the gambling public has been driven away by greedy legislators(They set the rates) and poor leadership( They refuse to recognize the fans voice).

If you analyze the take out in California, it has gone from 10% to 20% over time ,and if you knew how many projects that the take out and breakage (another 1.25%) supports, you could see where a 10% across the board take could be achieved and actually provide more revenue .

The take supports several organizations, including the TOC( would it be out of line to ask the TOC members pay DUES?),the take supports A Van and Stabling Program at each track so that Horsemen who get stall space get a free ride. The State expects a healthy number over and above costs for the General Fund.The take supports various charity programs ,like retired horses,Breakage has outlived its day because we do business by computer now and on and on.

There is a lot to be examined, but the point is lower take would mean more fans and betting and we would be in a growth pattern and be equal with the competition, and only then would the true facts about "popularity" with the public be meaningful.

Horse Racing is not dead, it is being poorly managed.

[Irish Boy]

Based on what we've seen at Betfair, I think my assumptions are on the conservative side.

I'd love to think you are right. I think what's going on there is self-selection of a very particular group, which you shouldn't use to extrapolate to the whole. I'll tell you what though... if tracks drop takeout to 10% and it more than doubles handle, I'll buy you a coke. :lol: A man can dream, right?

[Relwob Owner]

I think you are having a hard time grasping the fact that if 1 billion is bet during a specific period at a 20% takeout, most likely 2.5 to 3 billion would be bet if takeout was 10%.

10% of 2.5 billion is greater than 20% of 1 billion for the industry.

Owners and trainers would have more money to split up.



You are saying that if takeout dipped from 20 percent to 10, the betting would double or triple? ?That seems like a huge leap in terms of assumptions.....I know that the "whales" have a huge impact but what proof would there be that they would bet that much more? Plus, I know and respect your stance on takeout but to the average fan/bettor who isnt a "pro" or a "whale", do you really think that they have that intimate of a knowledge of takeout???? I doubt it.....

[DeanT]

If that's true- and it might be- horse racing is dead. You can only be sheltered from competition for so long.
It is here pretty much. Live handle is cut about in half since before slots. Yep, half! We are getting killed by alternative gaming.

As for attention span (which you call action), I can't find anyone to play chess anymore. It's too slow. Baseball ditto. Too slow. Those of us that have focus and concentration, and like this kind of stuff are just a different lot.

We are a unique breed arent we?

[andymays]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have nothing against sports betting,and maybe that is a possibility.

But Jeff makes a good point. Horse racing has operated at an economic disadvantage for too long concerning the competition,so that is the real problem. The people do love racing,but the gambling public has been driven away by greedy legislators(They set the rates) and poor leadership( They refuse to recognize the fans voice).

If you analyze the take out in California, it has gone from 10% to 20% over time ,and if you knew how many projects that the take out and breakage (another 1.25%) supports, you could see where a 10% across the board take could be achieved and actually provide more revenue .

The take supports several organizations, including the TOC( would it be out of line to ask the TOC members pay DUES?),the take supports A Van and Stabling Program at each track so that Horsemen who get stall space get a free ride. The State expects a healthy number over and above costs for the General Fund.The take supports various charity programs ,like retired horses,Breakage has outlived its day because we do business by computer now and on and on.

There is a lot to be examined, but the point is lower take would mean more fans and betting and we would be in a growth pattern and be equal with the competition, and only then would the true facts about "popularity" with the public be meaningful.

Horse Racing is not dead, it is being poorly managed.


Being on the backstretch at Del Mar yesterday was an eye opener. Lowering the take is not an option at this time. It may be down the road but I'm telling you many of these guys are a month away from walking away!

[cj]

Being on the backstretch at Del Mar yesterday was an eye opener. Lowering the take is not an option at this time. It may be down the road but I'm telling you many of these guys are a month away from walking away!

Then so be it really. I don't know any serious bettors that concentrate on SoCal anymore outside the occasional P6. NoCal, does it even exist? They'd be better off running simulated computer races than that crap they have put on the last decade or so.

[Relwob Owner]

It seems to me that at this point in time that Sports Betting is a viable solution. A case could be made that because of the situation all the States are in makeing it happen in the next year or so isn't that much of a stretch.

On the other hand what you're suggesting is a stetch in my opinion. We can go on theory and argue till we all die or we can take what might be a half assed solution and run with it!


I am not sure that it is the complete answer but I really dont seeing it hurting at all. The idea of losing race fans to sports betting seems to be the biggest concern and that just doesnt make sense to me. People betting racing already know about sports betting and they either do both or just like betting on racing more......I see both the sports and the horse bettors making bets on the other during a day and definitely see the potential for a bigger handle on each end and definitely dont see either side suffering as a result.

[thespaah]

I believe that allowing Sports Betting on Track and Satellite only (not online so we can get people to the facilities) will get people to go to the Track in droves to make a sports bet.

The thing about having a Casino at a Track is that these people like a different kind of action. A machine player needs action every 5 seconds.

A Sports Bettor has action every 3 or 4 hours so Horse Racing is a natural fit. The Sports Bettor will embrace Horse Racing because it is a game of skill where he has action every half hour. I would imagine more than a few people will stay at the Track to watch their game. They will eat, drink, and maybe play a few races!

This will attract a new group of people to the Track (young people included)!

I think this makes too much sense so they will never try it! :bang:

I am sure this will work and save Racing if they give it a try.

What do you think?
Great idea but ther are so many groups opposed to this. Sports leagues, NCAA, chrurch groups.
PLus I believe it is a violation of federal law for any state to legalize sports betting.
THe only state that is an exception is Oregon. After many court fights, that State proved their system was a lottery. Or something like that.
ANyway, I think it's good idea, but at least as far as I know, it's non-starter

[Irish Boy]

Just remember that however much fun it is to propose this as a solution, you can't do it anywhere except Nevada without a change in federal law, and good luck changing that.

[andymays]

Great idea but ther are so many groups opposed to this. Sports leagues, NCAA, chrurch groups.
PLus I believe it is a violation of federal law for any state to legalize sports betting.
THe only state that is an exception is Oregon. After many court fights, that State proved their system was a lottery. Or something like that.
ANyway, I think it's good idea, but at least as far as I know, it's non-starter


I think it was a non-starter two years ago but not today. Everyone and everything is on the table if you ask. The problem is that nobody is asking.

[DeanT]

You are saying that if takeout dipped from 20 percent to 10, the betting would double or triple? ?That seems like a huge leap in terms of assumptions.....I know that the "whales" have a huge impact but what proof would there be that they would bet that much more? Plus, I know and respect your stance on takeout but to the average fan/bettor who isnt a "pro" or a "whale", do you really think that they have that intimate of a knowledge of takeout???? I doubt it.....

Too bad you are not in TO. You could come and bet with a friend of mine. He bets UK races on betfair, and during the day might put 150-$200,000 thru at 5% takeout. Later we head to the track. His handle is about $20. Sometimes $40. He can not find an edge at the track betting into the teeth of 22% takes, so he has a beer, makes one or two $20 bets, chats with his friends and has something to eat.

Betting would triple or more within 5 years if we went to 10% takeouts. There is no doubt in my mind.

[Relwob Owner]

It is here pretty much. Live handle is cut about in half since before slots. Yep, half! We are getting killed by alternative gaming.



We are a unique breed arent we?


You say that live handle has been cut in half since the slots....do you think the slots are the only reason? I think ADW's have had a huge impact and so has the rise of on line gambling, poker, etc(alternative gaming, like you say) which encourages people to stay at home and away from the live racing. Also, throw in the piss poor marketing of the sport(go baby go?????) and one can maybe realize that it isnt just the slots......

[BlueShoe]

In the standard sports betting practice of choosing a side in football or baskekball and then putting up 11 to 10 the vigorish is 4 1/2 percent.If you can do better by shoping around or going offshore,great,but this has been sop at both legal and illegal books for decades.

[andymays]

There's a good chance that this thread ends up in the hands of a couple of Racing reporters tomorrow and getting the idea out there is the first step in creating a movement toward Sports Betting.

If there is one thing I've learned it's that you absolutely never know what can happen if you take a shot! If you don't take a shot then you literally will never know!

[Irish Boy]

I think it was a non-starter two years ago but not today. Everyone and everything is on the table if you ask. The problem is that nobody is asking.

It's not a track problem, it's a federal law problem, and that law isn't going anywhere. If anything, the federal gambling restrictions are getting more onerous. You just can't do it, period.

[proximity]

It takes the whole industry to do it, or at least about 5 or 6 major tracks to do it.
And I never said it would be done. The industry is far too dysfunctional to erase their mindsets and move into the future.

great post as most players are not going to abruptly adjust their wagering habits just because one track suddenly lowers takeout. most of us would still churn a good portion of the money back into other tracks.... who didn't blink.... and still had the normal takeouts.

numbers aside though, overall you're definitely right. 20% is not the optimum takeout to maximimize revenues.

the world may be better with less nuclear weapons, but who wants to be first to disarm?

[DeanT]

You say that live handle has been cut in half since the slots....do you think the slots are the only reason? I think ADW's have had a huge impact and so has the rise of on line gambling, poker, etc(alternative gaming, like you say) which encourages people to stay at home and away from the live racing. Also, throw in the piss poor marketing of the sport(go baby go?????) and one can maybe realize that it isnt just the slots......
Many reasons of course. But they are all a drag on horseplayers wallets. So I guess that is my point.

As to your question about lower takes, this kid just learned racing at 5% takes via betfair. He will prolly push through several hundred million this year in handle. He trades so it is a little different, but that is the way the game is played at low takeout. Not bad considering a year ago he never even watched a horse race.

http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/

[Relwob Owner]

Too bad you are not in TO. You could come and bet with a friend of mine. He bets UK races on betfair, and during the day might put $200,000 thru at 5% takeout. Later we head to the track. His handle is about $20. Sometimes $40. He can not find an edge at the track betting into the teeth of 22% takes, so he has a beer, makes one or two $20 bets, chats with his friends and has something to eat.

Betting would triple or more within 5 years if we went to 10% takeouts. There is no doubt in my mind.


Good info....I would guess there are more whales out there than I thought! Definitley simplifies things then because with that thought, the target for tracks really is the whales and it definitely changes the strategies a lot from their end.....do they currently have one?:)

I wish I had a friend that put 200K through the windows.....I am thinking you get some good dinners on nights you are with him/her and they score big!

[Relwob Owner]

Many reasons of course. But they are all a drag on horseplayers wallets. So I guess that is my point.

As to your question about lower takes, this kid just learned racing at 5% takes via betfair. He will prolly push through several hundred million this year in handle. He trades so it is a little different, but that is the way the game is played at low takeout.

http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/



Several hundred million? OK-I am on my way up there...maybe he needs an assistant?:)


Sounds like you are a Betfair fan?

[Relwob Owner]

There's a good chance that this thread ends up in the hands of a couple of Racing reporters tomorrow and getting the idea out there is the first step in creating a movement toward Sports Betting.

If there is one thing I've learned it's that you absolutely never know what can happen if you take a shot! If you don't take a shot then you literally will never know!


Andy,


Based on what I have seen from you, there is more than a "good shot" of this post ending up in the hands of racing reporters....I have your odds at 1 to 2 and my takeout is 12 percent.....

[DeanT]

It's not whales Relwob, it is normal people.

Think Etrade. A person who is trading $1000 trades would do very few at 20% commissions. They would buy a stock at $1 and could not sell it until it hit $1.20. They might do "$5000 of handle" a year.

Now change that to a $5 trade. He could sell that stock at $1.02 and make money. That same person, who is not a big trader, or a whale, will suddenly push millions through. This is the same thing. Low rake explodes players handles and they do not have to be a whale.

Stock volumes went from a few million shares a day to a few billion shares a day.

[andymays]

Andy,


Based on what I have seen from you, there is more than a "good shot" of this post ending up in the hands of racing reporters....I have your odds at 1 to 2 and my takeout is 12 percent.....


;)

[andymays]

It's not whales Relwob, it is normal people.

Think Etrade. A person who is trading $1000 trades would do very few at 20% commissions. They would buy a stock at $1 and could not sell it until it hit $1.20. They might do "$5000 of handle" a year.

Now change that to a $5 trade. He could sell that stock at $1.02 and make money. That same person, who is not a big trader, or a whale, will suddenly push millions through. This is the same thing. Low rake explodes players handles and they do not have to be a whale.


Dean, everything you say makes sense. Really, how do we get there? Isn't what you're suggesting an excercise in futility in the United States for one reason or another.

[Warren Henry]

Just remember that however much fun it is to propose this as a solution, you can't do it anywhere except Nevada without a change in federal law, and good luck changing that.

Just about as much chance as legalizing prostitution at the tracks. I personally like sports betting, sex etc. I am not into drugs other than alcohol, but don't care if others do it. If you could dispense all of these things only at the track, you could save racing AND raise takeout. But why discuss it - it ain't gonna happen.

I remember in the old days there were always a few "questionable" young ladies hovering around the $50 windows. Racing was healthy then. Wish we could go back.

[Relwob Owner]

It's not whales Relwob, it is normal people.

Think Etrade. A person who is trading $1000 trades would do very few at 20% commissions. They would buy a stock at $1 and could not sell it until it hit $1.20. They might do "$5000 of handle" a year.

Now change that to a $5 trade. He could sell that stock at $1.02 and make money. That same person, who is not a big trader, or a whale, will suddenly push millions through. This is the same thing. Low rake explodes players handles and they do not have to be a whale.

Stock volumes went from a few million shares a day to a few billion shares a day.


Good info....I am now starting to see the takeout concept more clearly and am definitely catching on to the churn idea and that lower takeout equals more available to put throught the window....been betting for 20 plus years and never really paid much attention to takeout til I hit the forum....good stuff

[DeanT]

There's a good chance that this thread ends up in the hands of a couple of Racing reporters tomorrow and getting the idea out there is the first step in creating a movement toward Sports Betting.

If there is one thing I've learned it's that you absolutely never know what can happen if you take a shot! If you don't take a shot then you literally will never know!

Someone told me that everything is on the table in Cali. I hope you make some hay out of this! Just make sure the powers that be know that there is something in it for the racing fan, so we dont get a deal like the slots deals :)

[Irish Boy]

I personally like sports betting, sex etc.

I think that's going on my gravestone. :D

Have to agree with what you said though.

[andymays]

Someone told me that everything is on the table in Cali. I hope you make some hay out of this! Just make sure the powers that be know that there is something in it for the racing fan, so we dont get a deal like the slots deals :)


It starts with a few well know Reporters putting it out there. Then when the public picks up on it and starts giving feedback to the Reporters they stay on it. Eventually the people that can move the concept into reality take a shot with it and then who knows?

I do know that most everyone that has commented on the subject has moved the ball forward (pun intended) and the thread may get some play! Although the comments by Warren Henry will get all the headlines as they should! :)

[Irish Boy]

It starts with a few well know Reporters putting it out there. Then when the public picks up on it and starts giving feedback to the Reporters they stay on it. Eventually the people that can move the concept into reality take a shot with it and then who knows?

You keep saying that, but it's not like sports gambling is a new idea. The public knows about it. You're not changing the federal law though. Not now anyway.

[DeanT]

Isn't what you're suggesting an excercise in futility in the United States for one reason or another.
Yes.

The whole house needs to be bulldozed and rebuilt, but that will not happen in North America. It is why (just my opinion) that the only way to change racing is to do it brick by brick, and at the end of the period you hope you have a nicer house than you started with.

[Relwob Owner]

You keep saying that, but it's not like sports gambling is a new idea. The public knows about it. You're not changing the federal law though. Not now anyway.

As was mentioned earlier, Delaware seems on their way in some fashion.....plus, laws arent going to change if people dont push. Seems to me that with things the way they are, many federal laws(who would have thought their would be serious discussions regarding legalizing and taxing pot?) will be analyzed and perhaps changed. The sports betting thing has never made sense to me and I could definitely see it changing in the future....

[andymays]

You keep saying that, but it's not like sports gambling is a new idea. The public knows about it. You're not changing the federal law though. Not now anyway.


I think most people are queer for slots (pun intended) and that won't work in the long run because the player type doesn't match to Horse Racing. Sports betting does!

Art Wilson has an article out and I already floated the idea in the comments.

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/07/ive-got-friends-who-think.html

his comments were:


July 20, 2009 2:33 PM
Art Wilson said:
I like a lot of the ideas I've read on here ... especially the sports betting angle. Are any of you people available to serve on the CHRB? :-)

Maybe some of you can comment on his article and float the idea a little more?

[Irish Boy]

As was mentioned earlier, Delaware seems on their way in some fashion.....plus, laws arent going to change if people dont push. Seems to me that with things the way they are, many federal laws(who would have thought their would be serious discussions regarding legalizing and taxing pot?) will be analyzed and perhaps changed. The sports betting thing has never made sense to me and I could definitely see it changing in the future....

Perhaps, but they just re-upped the federal laws to make them tougher and to close out-of-country loopholes. This all happened within the last two years. They're not about to change their minds. Besides, the powers against it are VERY interested in it not passing, while those who want it can usually get by without it. It's just not that hard to place a bet.

[Warren Henry]

It's not whales Relwob, it is normal people.

Think Etrade. A person who is trading $1000 trades would do very few at 20% commissions. They would buy a stock at $1 and could not sell it until it hit $1.20. They might do "$5000 of handle" a year.

Now change that to a $5 trade. He could sell that stock at $1.02 and make money. That same person, who is not a big trader, or a whale, will suddenly push millions through. This is the same thing. Low rake explodes players handles and they do not have to be a whale.

Stock volumes went from a few million shares a day to a few billion shares a day.

Very good example.

Until about three years ago, I personally never invested more than $5000 at a time in the market. My last trade was in the mid 80s and the commission was $55. In 1986, my portfolio was worth something like $20K. In 1987, it went to practically nothing. It was in an IRA and I basically forgot about it. Three years ago, I visited a friend who was playing the market daily. I thought I saw some flaws in what he was doing (he had lost it all when the dot com bubble burst). When I got home from that trip, I checked into my IRA and found that it had recovered to be worth about $50K.

In the next two years, I made hundreds of trades worth over 3 mil. I ran the 50K account up to over 260K. Ultimately, I pizzed it all away thinking I was invincible. But that isn't the point

The point is that I made hundreds of trades a year at $9 each compared to one or two a year at $55.

[DeanT]

Super post Warren. I have seen the same story with a few other people. Just regular guys like you and me but they were trading piles and piles of money.

I personally think that a lot of handle losses are due to the explosion and ease of at home stock trading. I know when I was doing it I did not bet a horse. I think I took about a five or six year break from racing. Anecdotal I know, but with low juice on stock trades and a rising market, my time was spent there, and I doubt I was the only one.

[Warren Henry]

Super post Warren. I have seen the same story with a few other people. Just regular guys like you and me but they were trading piles and piles of money.

I personally think that a lot of handle losses are due to the explosion and ease of at home stock trading. I know when I was doing it I did not bet a horse. I think I took about a five or six year break from racing. Anecdotal I know, but with low juice on stock trades and a rising market, my time was spent there, and I doubt I was the only one.

And now their wives won't speak to me. :blush:

We were gambling and we knew it. Most of us didn't get out and lost it all, but we traded thousands of times with total value probably exceeding 50 million dollars. These were very ordinary people. Probably not one with a net worth over 300K excluding the soon to be eroded equity in their homes. The discount brokers made a lot of money from people like us who wouldn't have even been in the market if the old line brokerage commissions were in place.

[riskman]

but to the average fan/bettor who isnt a "pro" or a "whale", do you really think that they have that intimate of a knowledge of takeout???? I doubt it.....

Most do not care nor do they have a clue what the percentages are. If the take out were lowered it would keep them in the game longer not even knowing the reason.

[Pace Cap'n]

It is here pretty much. Live handle is cut about in half since before slots. Yep, half! We are getting killed by alternative gaming.

At what point in time was handle ever double what it is now?

[Relwob Owner]

Most do not care nor do they have a clue what the percentages are. If the take out were lowered it would keep them in the game longer not even knowing the reason.


This thread has made me see that and now it makes sense....takes a while for me sometimes:)

[andymays]

Sent the thread to about 7 or 8 Reporters so we'll see if anyone runs with it!

Or maybe the'll tell me to quit bothering them and get lost! :)

[rrbauer]

I'm not sure that's a perfect analogy. Slots is constant action, non-stop. Sports betting requires a bet, then 2-3 hours of inaction. If you stay at the place of betting for those hours, and you have money to spend, there's a good chance you drop some money on the horses as well. At the very least, getting feet in the door helps. And I bet that there's a high correlation of would-be horse players and sports bettors than there is for slots players and horse players.

I know a lot of ex-horseplayers who have migrated to other venues (poker and sports in particular). I don't know of ANY poker or sports bettors who have migrated to horses. The slots' players are on a different planet. What I sense in this thread is a lot of wishful thinking. What has to happen is that the horseracing product has to change if it is going to attract new blood. Easier said than done, I realize; and, nobody (including me) seems to know what those changes should be, but I know as a horseplayer that I'm being treated unfairly relative to the other "partners" in the game: The track operators, the bet takers and the horse owners.

Betting sports at racetracks and simulcast venues is off the charts. And, leaving the Internet bettors in the lurch is off the wall.

[thespaah]

I think it was a non-starter two years ago but not today. Everyone and everything is on the table if you ask. The problem is that nobody is asking.Ask? Yes.
ON the table? Only if the federal government says it is.

[so.cal.fan]

Racetracks are dying because the OWNERS of horses are getting taxed and ripped off everyday.
Breeders aren't getting a square deal on tax breaks, especially in my State....California.
When there are no more owners and no more breeders....no more horseracing.
Additionally, they need to lower the take-out on ALL types of bets to a flat 10%. GIVE IT MORE THAN ONE OR TWO SEASONS TO WORK! Before someone posts, they've tried that and it doesn't work.......they never gave it the long range chance to work.
Horse racing has to give TAX BREAKS to OWNERS, BREEDERS and HORSEPLAYERS.
Racetracks need to market these tax breaks....."hey, sportsfans, racing fans, you have a grand chance of making a profit at the racetrack".
Almost half the people on this board could show profits on horse bets, if the take was 10%. Some would show huge profits. What would likely happen?
Increased handle.....and more winners getting into the business of being owners, where given decent tax breaks......would have a shot at a profit.

[andymays]

I know a lot of ex-horseplayers who have migrated to other venues (poker and sports in particular). I don't know of ANY poker or sports bettors who have migrated to horses. The slots' players are on a different planet. What I sense in this thread is a lot of wishful thinking. What has to happen is that the horseracing product has to change if it is going to attract new blood. Easier said than done, I realize; and, nobody (including me) seems to know what those changes should be, but I know as a horseplayer that I'm being treated unfairly relative to the other "partners" in the game: The track operators, the bet takers and the horse owners.

Betting sports at racetracks and simulcast venues is off the charts. And, leaving the Internet bettors in the lurch is off the wall.


Wishful thinking? Absolutely!

[DeanT]

So Cal Fan,

What are the tax situations for horse owners there (sorry, I dont want to get the thread off topic but was wondering). Up here we are an agri business as owners and can write off our losses directly off our income. (Up to $9000 per year and can carry forward). If your stable loses $20,000 can you write off anything?

[so.cal.fan]

I'm not quite sure on the figures, Dean, as we haven't owned horses for several years, but several of our friends do, and all say it's prohibitive.
They no longer allow for any deduction, or very, very little.
Daily rate of training goes up every year, vet work, same thing, and of course the purses haven't gone up.
I'm not going to Del Mar this week, or I would ask owners and answer your question, but if anyone reading this can give Dean the actual figures...please feel invited to do so.
I do know at least 3 owners who no longer race horses in California, even though they reside here in So. Cal.
There are other factors of course, but this is a serious one.

[thespaah]

Racetracks are dying because the OWNERS of horses are getting taxed and ripped off everyday.
Breeders aren't getting a square deal on tax breaks, especially in my State....California.
When there are no more owners and no more breeders....no more horseracing.
Additionally, they need to lower the take-out on ALL types of bets to a flat 10%. GIVE IT MORE THAN ONE OR TWO SEASONS TO WORK! Before someone posts, they've tried that and it doesn't work.......they never gave it the long range chance to work.
Horse racing has to give TAX BREAKS to OWNERS, BREEDERS and HORSEPLAYERS.
Racetracks need to market these tax breaks....."hey, sportsfans, racing fans, you have a grand chance of making a profit at the racetrack".
Almost half the people on this board could show profits on horse bets, if the take was 10%. Some would show huge profits. What would likely happen?
Increased handle.....and more winners getting into the business of being owners, where given decent tax breaks......would have a shot at a profit.
IN a perfect world, you're spot on.
Here's the rub. We're dealing with politicians that have their own agendas.
Most do not give a rats petootee about horse racing nor do they care if it exists.
IMO Horse racing and wagering on same is merely tolerated by state politicos who view the sport as a means to generate revenue. Oh, they may offer lip service when the right number of cameras/microphones show up. But let's be honest, if revenues from the bettors, owners, breeders, tracks, etc began to dry up, how long would it take for goverment officials to throw in the towel?

[so.cal.fan]

Thespaah,
you are right, of course. I know it's naive to think that politicians would allow something sensible to happen.
I've been reading this solution for years and years, and in California things keep getting worse and worse.....I would bet we have the worst legislature in the country in Sacramento. They are horrible. They are destroying every nice small city in California with over-development, which the majority of Cal. pols seem to be addicted to. They are in the pocket of the development associations and the realtor's associations. A shocking percentage of former breeding farms have been sold off and developed. Hollywood Park and now even Santa Anita could be in danger of these pirates.
So, again, you're right, it won't happen....... :( :bang:

[andymays]

But if they allowed Sports Betting on Track and Satellite only (no internet) would it benefit Horse Racing?

[castaway01]

But if they allowed Sports Betting on Track and Satellite only (no internet) would it benefit Horse Racing?

I don't understand the purpose of the question repeatedly being asked---to be blunt, anyone who thinks that in a million years Vegas would ever allow tracks to get sports betting, or that the federal or state governments would, or that ANYONE would let racetracks have real Vegas-style sports betting is totally clueless. So what different does it make if it would help horse racing? It's like asking if 12-horse fields ridden by supermodels in bikinis would get people out to the track, or if Rachel Alexandra winning the Haskell, Travers, Arc de Triomphe, and Breeders Cup Classic this year would be a good story. Well, yes---but they ain't happenin'. :)

[andymays]

I don't understand the purpose of the question repeatedly being asked---to be blunt, anyone who thinks that in a million years Vegas would ever allow tracks to get sports betting, or that the federal or state governments would, or that ANYONE would let racetracks have real Vegas-style sports betting is totally clueless. So what different does it make if it would help horse racing? It's like asking if 12-horse fields ridden by supermodels in bikinis would get people out to the track, or if Rachel Alexandra winning the Haskell, Travers, Arc de Triomphe, and Breeders Cup Classic this year would be a good story. Well, yes---but they ain't happenin'. :)


I asked it again because the thread was going off track into another subject. As far as whether or not it could happen I think a couple of years ago it was impossible but now I'm not so sure. As far as Vegas goes who would have ever thought the Indian Casinos would be where they are?

[castaway01]

I asked it again because the thread was going off track into another subject. As far as whether or not it could happen I think a couple of years ago it was impossible but now I'm not so sure. As far as Vegas goes who would have ever thought the Indian Casinos would be where they are?

I think you missed my point---I'm not saying that gambling won't someday be expanded in this country. Perhaps sports betting will even spread and be legalized in more places. I doubt it, but in 20 years or something, who knows? It all depends on how desperate state governments get for cash. However, if that happens, racetracks won't be getting the benefits---that was my point. We're entering a time when politicians and even horseplayers are questioning giving slot money to racetracks to prop them up. In the future, racetracks will be lucky to hold on to what slot money they have---they won't be given sportsbooks too.

[andymays]

I think you missed my point---I'm not saying that gambling won't someday be expanded in this country. Perhaps sports betting will even spread and be legalized in more places. I doubt it, but in 20 years or something, who knows? It all depends on how desperate state governments get for cash. However, if that happens, racetracks won't be getting the benefits---that was my point. We're entering a time when politicians and even horseplayers are questioning giving slot money to racetracks to prop them up. In the future, racetracks will be lucky to hold on to what slot money they have---they won't be given sportsbooks too.


If they decide to take sports bets the Racetrack and Satellite are natural fits.

[rrbauer]

Racetracks are dying because the OWNERS of horses are getting taxed and ripped off everyday.
Breeders aren't getting a square deal on tax breaks, especially in my State....California.
When there are no more owners and no more breeders....no more horseracing.
Additionally, they need to lower the take-out on ALL types of bets to a flat 10%. GIVE IT MORE THAN ONE OR TWO SEASONS TO WORK! Before someone posts, they've tried that and it doesn't work.......they never gave it the long range chance to work.
Horse racing has to give TAX BREAKS to OWNERS, BREEDERS and HORSEPLAYERS.
Racetracks need to market these tax breaks....."hey, sportsfans, racing fans, you have a grand chance of making a profit at the racetrack".
Almost half the people on this board could show profits on horse bets, if the take was 10%. Some would show huge profits. What would likely happen?
Increased handle.....and more winners getting into the business of being owners, where given decent tax breaks......would have a shot at a profit.

I used to own horses. After getting jacked around (in no particular order) by trainers, farm managers, vets, racetrack officials, jockeys and transportation outfits I decided that there had to be a better way to enjoy the game.

Fast forward thirty years: I see nothing in the game that would warrant any investment in it as an owner or racetrack operator; and the ADW situation is getting iffy. Maybe there are people in the game with long-term vested interests who have marginal operations that when tax offsets from other sources of income are factored in can show a modest profit. And, there are the folks with the big bucks who come to the game for reasons other than showing a profit. Other than that, if you're looking for a handout try the welfare office or a tin cup.

[Buckeye]

Allow me to suggest something completely out there.

Why should racing have to even think about resorting to gambling games other than racing to save racing?

Do gambling games other than racing have the ability to kick racing's ass when it comes to creating new customers and growing handle?

If so, why?

Hint: takeout.

Slots are immensely popular. But then aren't most slot machines in this day and age programmed to return more than 90 cents for every dollar wagered? And that equates to (what?) less than 10 percent takeout, right?

The vig (house edge) on the line at a typical footbal game at Pinnacle was (what?) 10 percent? Again, that equates to 10 percent takeout, right?

Instead of using other forms of gambling (that offer lower takeout than racing) to "save" racing...

Is it too much of a stretch to think maybe it's time for racing to stand up and COMPETE with the other forms of low takeout gambling that have been kicking racing's ass for more than a decade?

Color me blind deaf and dumb if you want. But I happen to think that racing offered at 9 to 10 percent takeout every pool everywhere every day (marketed as the best gambling game on the planet) very quickly turns things around and finds itself kicking the collective asses of every other gambling game known to man.



-jp

.

Sounds reasonable to me! But then again . . .

[Irish Boy]

10 cent vig does not equal 10% takeout.

Two hypothetical bets at -110, one wins, another loses:

$50 loser = $0
$50 winner = $95.45 returned.

Takeout = 4.55%

[Buckeye]

by 'again' I mean a hope and a prayer.

"The animals" will cooperate though. :)

Too bad I'm not in charge here--

lower the take-out to competitive levels and lower the drink prices too! Lower everything because of the "S.U.V. I can do whatever I want" atmosphere. No you can't and neither can Horse Racing.

[andymays]

AP NewsBreak: Sports leagues sue to block betting
Saturday, July 25, 2009

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2009Jul25/0,4670,USSportsBetting,00.html

Excerpt:

WASHINGTON — The four major pro sports leagues and the NCAA sued Delaware Friday, seeking to block the state from implementing sports betting.
Delaware's sports betting plan "would irreparably harm professional and amateur sports by fostering suspicion and skepticism that individual plays and final scores of games may have been influenced by factors other than honest athletic competition," the leagues and NCAA said in a lawsuit filed in federal court in Delaware.

They would much rather have the money go offshore. More Outsourcing! :bang:

[statepierback]

So much for betting to start in September.

[thespaah]

AP NewsBreak: Sports leagues sue to block betting
Saturday, July 25, 2009

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2009Jul25/0,4670,USSportsBetting,00.html

Excerpt:

WASHINGTON — The four major pro sports leagues and the NCAA sued Delaware Friday, seeking to block the state from implementing sports betting.
Delaware's sports betting plan "would irreparably harm professional and amateur sports by fostering suspicion and skepticism that individual plays and final scores of games may have been influenced by factors other than honest athletic competition," the leagues and NCAA said in a lawsuit filed in federal court in Delaware.

They would much rather have the money go offshore. More Outsourcing! :bang:
This whole thing is brutal.
The Brits can bet on anything.
This nonsesne over here in States is Puritanical baloney.
To some, the mere fact that there is wagering on an event automatically casts a shadow of doubt on the integrity of the event.
That's just nonsense.
I am quite sick of people or entities using the courts to bypass the will of the people to ge what they want.
If the respective sports leagues and enterprises want to stop or prevent legal wagering, let them go petition State legislatures.

[Irish Boy]

Do you think the sports leagues are nieve? They know that their popularity rests in large part on wagering. They want the wagering to be done in one place, where they can keep track of suspicious wagering more easily. They don't want 50 different state systems. The major leagues have relationships with the books in Vegas so that they can monitor any possible shenanigans.

[andymays]

Do you think the sports leagues are nieve? They know that their popularity rests in large part on wagering. They want the wagering to be done in one place, where they can keep track of suspicious wagering more easily. They don't want 50 different state systems. The major leagues have relationships with the books in Vegas so that they can monitor any possible shenanigans.


People place bets offshore every minute of everday. Some of them might even be Umpires, Referees, and other sports officials. Letting the money go offshore everyday is absurd!

[castaway01]

People place bets offshore every minute of everday. Some of them might even be Umpires, Referees, and other sports officials. Letting the money go offshore everyday is absurd!

Andy, no offense, but you seem beyond clueless on this topic. Irish Boy had it 100% right.

[andymays]

Andy, no offense, but you seem beyond clueless on this topic. Irish Boy had it 100% right.


No offense taken. ;)

But you seem to be beyond clueless on this topic. Do you remember the Basketball Referee (maybe Doneghy)? If you think that was an isolated incident I don't know what to say! Being naive is great isn't it?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/914609/tim_donaghy_to_get_15_months_in_prison.html?cat=14

Excerpt:

It was back in August of 2007 when Donaghy first pled guilty to conspiracy to engage in wire fraud and transmitting betting information through interstate commerce and ever since then, fans of the NBA have dealt with many different rumors about just how much cheating that Donaghy was partaking in. According to his own statements, he alleges that referees helped alter the outcomes of games during the 2002 and 2005 postseasons. One such postseason game was between the Sacramento Kings and the Los Angeles Lakers where the Lakers were down by numerous points in the fourth quarter, but benefited from many different questionable calls. People were screaming conspiracy even back then, and this latest case against Donaghy just proved to them that he was a fraud and that there was indeed something fishy going on within the NBA.

[Irish Boy]

You're proving my point. The NBA found out about Donaghy from the Vegas books, who were taking money in suspicious patterns and notified the NBA (which is the most clueless of the major organizations). The NFL, NCAA, etc. want the largest pools possible, and they want the sharpest guys running them.

As for offshores, there's nothing anyone can do about those.

[andymays]

You're proving my point. The NBA found out about Donaghy from the Vegas books, who were taking money in suspicious patterns and notified the NBA (which is the most clueless of the major organizations). The NFL, NCAA, etc. want the largest pools possible, and they want the sharpest guys running them.

As for offshores, there's nothing anyone can do about those.


If all Sports bets were in the United States it would be a cleaner operation all the way around and the money would stay in the United States instead of offshore and illegal bookmakers.

The point of the thread is that all these Sports bets should be allowed at Race Tracks and Satellite facilities so they can benefit by the attendace and exposing a new group to Horse Racing.

[thespaah]

Do you think the sports leagues are nieve? They know that their popularity rests in large part on wagering. They want the wagering to be done in one place, where they can keep track of suspicious wagering more easily. They don't want 50 different state systems. The major leagues have relationships with the books in Vegas so that they can monitor any possible shenanigans.
50 different entities. Good point.

[andymays]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-07-27-sports-betting_N.htm

Excerpt:

It's a sign of a lagging economy: American pro and college sports teams seeking new revenue through increasingly bold marketing relationships with gambling interests. It's why team logos have begun appearing on state lottery tickets and why some basketball games have been played at casino hotels.
Now officials in Delaware and New Jersey, facing their own budget problems, say it's time for a bolder move: full-scale, legalized sports betting in states other than Nevada, currently the only place such activity is allowed. They are pushing hard to add legalized, in-casino sports betting to their states' gambling offerings, which include horse racing, lotteries, slot machines and — in Atlantic City — table games.

Horse Racing interests should be lobbying heavily to have Sports Betting on Track or Satellite only and not in Casinos (unless they already allow their Race Tracks to have Casinos) or on line.

[andymays]

Delaware Racetracks Launch Sports Betting | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52514/delaware-racetracks-launch-sports-betting

Excerpt:

Sports betting launched at three Delaware racetracks Sept. 10, but officials are unsure how much revenue limited parlay wagering will generate.
The state and the tracks had planned to offer wagering on single games and sports other than pro football, but a court ruled they couldn’t do so. The plan was opposed by professional sports leagues and the National College Athletic Association.

[thespaah]

This is good news. We should be able to wager on games leaglly.
The idea that betting will adversely effect the integrtiy of sports contests is stupid.
Over in the UK one can bet on two cockroaches dodging streetcars.
Nobody says boo about that.
But our society with it's latent Puritanism, betting is still stigmatized. Makes no sense.
I congratulate the State of Delaware for it's innovation.

[mannyberrios]

To do that we need less Race Tracks. If we only had 2 Race Tracks to bet at any given time the handle at those Tracks would more than triple. The problem is that that's not reality. Sports Betting on Track or Satellite will work!:1: If I owned a racetrack, and I am making any kind of money,I AM NOT CLOSING. SORRY!

[thespaah]

:1: If I owned a racetrack, and I am making any kind of money,I AM NOT CLOSING. SORRY!
That's the problem. Many racetracks lose money
JUst not enopugh people go to the track anymore
I bet live handle across the country is down 90% since the late 80's\
For example. I used ot go to the Meadowlands during the harness meet at least 40 to 50 bights each meeting.
ON any night during the week attendance was in the mid teens of thousands with about a $100 -$120 per capita. On saturdays the place was packed .Especially in the warmer months. Crowds would avg 20k or so....A two to 2.5 million dollar saturday handle was the norm
Per capital live handle is about $60 now. and usually about 4,000 people show up....It's this way all over. It's a friggin shame. But the powers that be in track management have no one to blame but themselves.

[andymays]

Sports Betting Gives Bump to Harness Racing

Updated: Nov 25, 2009 07:30 AM EST
http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=11566620

Excerpt:

DOVER, Del.- Delaware is making more money than predicted from sports betting.

Acting Secretary of Finance Tom Cook said that as of October, the state has made nearly $500,000 from sports betting since the start of the NFL season. State officials predicted that Delaware would make $500,000 over the entire fiscal year.

Dover Downs Hotel and Casino CEO Edward Sutor said bets at his facility have increased for the past 11 weeks. Cook said last week 55,000 bets were placed across the state. He said bettors wagered $763,000.
Sutor said he was surprised by the strong start.

"We weren't expecting this at first, but we are delighted it's headed in this direction," Sutor said.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get a clue Horse Racing! Get a clue Politicians!

I told you Sports Betting could help Horse Racing if done right! Same type of Players!:ThmbUp:

[Jackal]

I don't think sports betting will help racing. The avg Joe only has so much cash. He can afford to bet the ponies or football - not both.

Racing has to many options now. Win, Place, and Show pools only account for about 25% of the total handle. When racing was thriving you had three bet types, exacta, daily double and W,P,S. Most of the money was in the W,P,S pool.

New players bet to win. But when they cash a ticket their return is so tiny they never return to the track. Racing needs to ditch some exotics. There is only so much money at the track on a given day. If the handle is splintered no wager type pays very much.

If I tried to handicap every race, I would hit less than 1/3 of my wagers. Considering that most win bets have a payoff of less than $10 I would lose my shirt. Imagine what the new player thinks of his on track experience.

[andymays]

I don't think sports betting will help racing. The avg Joe only has so much cash. He can afford to bet the ponies or football - not both.

Racing has to many options now. Win, Place, and Show pools only account for about 25% of the total handle. When racing was thriving you had three bet types, exacta, daily double and W,P,S. Most of the money was in the W,P,S pool.

New players bet to win. But when they cash a ticket their return is so tiny they never return to the track. Racing needs to ditch some exotics. There is only so much money at the track on a given day. If the handle is splintered no wager type pays very much.

If I tried to handicap every race, I would hit less than 1/3 of my wagers. Considering that most win bets have a payoff of less than $10 I would lose my shirt. Imagine what the new player thinks of his on track experience.


It's about getting a new group of people involved in racing. My rule would be that sports betting is only allowed on track or at off track wagering facilities. If a casino takes racing then they can take sports bets. No wagering on line so we get people to the tracks.

[rrbauer]

It's about getting a new group of people involved in racing. My rule would be that sports betting is only allowed on track or at off track wagering facilities. If a casino takes racing then they can take sports bets. No wagering on line so we get people to the tracks.

IMO more horse players would migrate to the sports betting arena than the other way around (what you're advocating) should it become legal. And, for that simple reason, the tracks, racing assoc, horse owners groups would fight it tooth and nail. Why don't you advocate outlawing Internet betting of horses? See how many people that gets (back) to the tracks. How many people watch a pro-football game live....how many on TV?

[andymays]

IMO more horse players would migrate to the sports betting arena than the other way around (what you're advocating) should it become legal. And, for that simple reason, the tracks, racing assoc, horse owners groups would fight it tooth and nail. Why don't you advocate outlawing Internet betting of horses? See how many people that gets (back) to the tracks. How many people watch a pro-football game live....how many on TV?


The article in post #137 indicates that there might be something there.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

You should not be forcing sports bettors to go to a racetrack to have a bet on sports. If racing is such a good thing to bet on people will bet on it without coercion

Sports betting is probably racing's biggest competition and in the long run racing will probably lose out to sports betting. The idea that you can only have one bet on a sport then have to wait hours to bet again is an idea that belongs in ancient history books beside stories of Caesar and friends. It might not apply in the USA yet but in other countries these days there is plenty of betting done on sports "in the run". So the odds on the game change constantly throughout the game and you are able to literally bet through every minute of play. The betting turnover on in the run or in play sports betting has risen dramatically in a few short years. How is racing going to compete with that? There are more action bets available to a sports bettor probably than a racing bettor (if you are in the right place of course, most notably the UK). Of course you can also bet in the run on horse races in the UK too

Forget about punishing sports bettors to make them bet the races. Racing has to make itself more attractive to bet on than sports or else lose business

[riskman]

Sports Betting Gives Bump to Harness Racing

Updated: Nov 25, 2009 07:30 AM EST
http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=11566620

Excerpt:

DOVER, Del.- Delaware is making more money than predicted from sports betting.

Acting Secretary of Finance Tom Cook said that as of October, the state has made nearly $500,000 from sports betting since the start of the NFL season. State officials predicted that Delaware would make $500,000 over the entire fiscal year.

Dover Downs Hotel and Casino CEO Edward Sutor said bets at his facility have increased for the past 11 weeks. Cook said last week 55,000 bets were placed across the state. He said bettors wagered $763,000.
Sutor said he was surprised by the strong start.

"We weren't expecting this at first, but we are delighted it's headed in this direction," Sutor said.

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Get a clue Horse Racing! Get a clue Politicians!

I told you Sports Betting could help Horse Racing if done right! Same type of Players!:ThmbUp:


How has this helped horse racing? Has handle and attendance increased at the tracks in Delaware ? How much revenue has gone to horse racing? It looks like the STATE is the one who is benefiting not horse racing.

[Stillriledup]

On the surface it sounds like a great idea, just copycat Vegas lines and limit action to 1k.

Another good idea would be to create a huge, new large seated area/sportsbook type place where sports bettors can come and watch the action. Most people have the ability to 'get down' action, but if they had a place to go to watch all the games in extreme comfort (with horse racing windows nearby) you can get sports bettors to a place to watch the games, eat quality and reasonably priced food, and charge like 5 dollars admission to keep out the riffraff. I know that if i was a sportsbettor, i would consider going to this sports book that is better than the best sportsbook in Vegas, its smoke free, and you can watch a million large screen televisions with every game known to man up there on the screen.

And, you dont have to actually book sports bets, you can just get sports bettors to come there to watch their action in your amazing sportsbook.

[Lasix67]

there is no question online gaming is the now and the future. Horse racing will never go back to track and satellite only wagering. Just to much handle is drawn from online and it is growing with the proliferation of broadcasting options that are available, including the fact Dish is about to transmit the RTN signal with their TVG and HRTV channels they already have. What horse racing needs is to get into the 21st century and begin broadcasting these stations in hi-def like every other big time sporting event that wagers are excepted on. As for sportsbooks, I don't have a problem with every casino in the country carrying action, as I believe we as adults should be able to wager on a game without having to resort to flying to Vegas or playing with a bookie. It will eventually happen, it's just a matter of when.

[andymays]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/12032009-california-horse-racing-meets-health-care-debate/

Excerpt:

California, and every other racing state for that matter, should look at a form of legalized sports betting, even if it’s only sports betting in a proposition format.

Now a half-million dollars won’t even buy a single MLB role players these days, but it was a step in the right direction for the state of Delaware that gained that amount since a prop form of wagering was instituted on NFL games this year.

State officials originally thought that amount could by “won” over an entire season but they did so through October’s receipts. way ahead of schedule. As a result of sports betting at the tracks, harness handle in the state as well as sagging lottery numbers also increased. Earlier this year, Prairie Meadows racetrack released their findings that casino wagering increased on days when live racing was offered. It seems that whenever tracks are involved, real synergy has a chance.

The key has been the ability of sports betting to bring new people out to the tracks. They’ve had a chance to look around and learn something about a game that had been foreign to them. Early indications are that it seems to be working.


:ThmbUp:

[Buckeye]

it's just a matter of when.

You're right but when.

[Buckeye]

me I'm leaving it in God's hand to solve this-- which is about what I think it will take. No joke. We all love the horses and what they do and we equally hate what the racetracks have done in their greed and stupidity. I say let God take care of it as that seems to me the only viable option. Go with the power.

[Stillriledup]

You're right but when.

Eat your veggies, get a lot of sleep, exercise daily and look both ways before crossing the steet and you might live long enough to see it.

Or, not.

[Buckeye]

that's quite of bit of advice. Rest assured though, God is already working to solve this problem. The short answer is no, satellites can't help. and by the way who said racing needs to be "saved" anyway? It's not going anywhere. My goal is NOT to save racing. My goal is to make money on it. I don't want to "save" it. Who cares?

[andymays]

that's quite of bit of advice. Rest assured though, God is already working to solve this problem. The short answer is no, satellites can't help. and by the way who said racing needs to be "saved" anyway? It's not going anywhere. My goal is NOT to save racing. My goal is to make money on it. I don't want to "save" it. Who cares?


As the author of this thread I feel good that God is working on it. :ThmbUp:

Sports betting could be the salvation of Horse Racing. :ThmbUp:

I've been asking for Him to get rid of hight takeout and synthetic surfaces. I think He's on board with getting rid of synthetic surfaces but high takeout I don't know.

[Relwob Owner]

As the author of this thread I feel good that God is working on it. :ThmbUp:

Sports betting could be the salvation of Horse Racing. :ThmbUp:

I've been asking for Him to get rid of hight takeout and synthetic surfaces. I think He's on board with getting rid of synthetic surfaces but high takeout I don't know.

Man, AM, this has been one long thread! couldnt believe it is still going....I see no downside with your idea. The challenge would be getting it implemented but it is a good one. I have read people say that you shouldnt have to make people go to the track to bets on sports....well, just make the tracks like sportbooks in Vegas and people can pick theeir poison.....

[andymays]

NJ Lawmakers to Consider Sports Betting Bill | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55260/nj-lawmakers-to-consider-sports-betting-bill

Excerpt:

Legislation that would allow New Jersey racetracks and Atlantic City casinos to accept wagers on sporting events will go before an Assembly panel the week of Feb. 8.

The measure would allow gamblers to make bets in person or via telephone or the Internet, though wagers wouldn't be allowed on college games that take place in the state or involve a New Jersey college team, regardless of where the game was played.
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If they want to help racing it should be on track or satellite only for a few years!

[thespaah]

NJ Lawmakers to Consider Sports Betting Bill | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55260/nj-lawmakers-to-consider-sports-betting-bill

Excerpt:

Legislation that would allow New Jersey racetracks and Atlantic City casinos to accept wagers on sporting events will go before an Assembly panel the week of Feb. 8.

The measure would allow gamblers to make bets in person or via telephone or the Internet, though wagers wouldn't be allowed on college games that take place in the state or involve a New Jersey college team, regardless of where the game was played.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If they want to help racing it should be on track or satellite only for a few years!
Here's why this and any other discussion of sports betting outsider of NV,MT,DE and OR is moot....http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Federal-Laws/sports-protection.htm
Federal law prohibits sports wagering outside of the above mentioned states. Infact an appeals court has poverturned Delaware's attempt to introduce the gaming.
As far as I concerned, the federal and stae governments should embrace and regulate sports wagering. This would give states a new flow of unlimited tax revenue.
Look, casino gaming practically funds the entire state budget of Mississippi.
Of course hard right politicians who depend on the religious right for votes are opposed.
I believe if the chruch people can be bypassed, anti-gaming laws will disappear.
People love to make a bet. They will find a way to do so. Governments are shortsighted.
The church lobby uses that same old tired excuse of the blue collar guy stopping at some betting shop and pissing away all the bill and food money on wagers.
Newsflash, if those types want to make a bet and squander their paychecks, they are doing it already.