Synthocrap's interesting connection

[46zilzal]

I hear through the scuttlebutt in back stretch talk that MANY of the leading tracks that put in Poly have, AS BIG Investor's IN THAT COMPANY, many of the big wigs who run those courses. Much akin to the governor who quietly owns a good portion of the contracting company that is putting in the state highway.

I talked to several trainers who have run at Woodbine and the majority of them do not care for it with many of their horses developing all manner of new injuries (usually HIND END) and a few scoped to discover balls of the crap stuck down the bronchi of their animals.

Handicappers dislike it, horsemen dislike it......Strange WHY IS IT THERE?

[andymays]

I hear through the scuttlebutt in back stretch talk that MANY of the leading tracks that put in Poly have, AS BIG Investor's IN THAT COMPANY, many of the big wigs who run those courses. Much akin to the governor who quietly owns a good portion of the contracting company that is putting in the state highway.

I talked to several trainers who have run at Woodbine and the majority of them do not care for it with many of their horses developing all manner of new injuries (usually HIND END) and a few scoped to discover balls of the crap stuck down the bronchi of their animals.

Handicappers dislike it, horsemen dislike it......Strange WHY IS IT THERE?


Your theory sounds good to me!

[cj]

I hear through the scuttlebutt in back stretch talk that MANY of the leading tracks that put in Poly have, AS BIG Investor's IN THAT COMPANY, many of the big wigs who run those courses. Much akin to the governor who quietly owns a good portion of the contracting company that is putting in the state highway.

I talked to several trainers who have run at Woodbine and the majority of them do not care for it with many of their horses developing all manner of new injuries (usually HIND END) and a few scoped to discover balls of the crap stuck down the bronchi of their animals.

Handicappers dislike it, horsemen dislike it......Strange WHY IS IT THERE?

Wow, you are coming around! ;)

[cj's dad]

Are the jockeys wearing any type of disposable mask that would reduce this from being inhaled into their lungs; similar to the threat once posed from asbestos ?

[Bruddah]

I hear through the scuttlebutt in back stretch talk that MANY of the leading tracks that put in Poly have, AS BIG Investor's IN THAT COMPANY, many of the big wigs who run those courses. Much akin to the governor who quietly owns a good portion of the contracting company that is putting in the state highway.

I talked to several trainers who have run at Woodbine and the majority of them do not care for it with many of their horses developing all manner of new injuries (usually HIND END) and a few scoped to discover balls of the crap stuck down the bronchi of their animals.

Handicappers dislike it, horsemen dislike it......Strange WHY IS IT THERE?


O.K. Who is this using 46zilzal's personna? :eek:

To answer your question, it is here because the Thorughbred Industry "Blue Bloods" want to force Globalization of American Racing down our throats. And, that has been a goal since a certain person was received at the Court of St. James. I refer to a past Ambassador and now his progeny, who direct the "Blue Blood" contingent of Thoroughbred Racing in America. The "Blue Bloods" think they will be better received into European Society. When in reality, they will always be those dirty little stupid Americans. Being true American Capitalists, the elitist Blue LLC group decided to try and make a few bucks along the way, while implementing their dreams to make the American elitist group acceptable to Aristocracy.

The perfect door of opportunity to introduce their Globalization strategy came with the unfortunate and untimely deaths of high profile horses including Eight Belles. Congress began blustering and profiling for the cameras. Animal rights activist and Pretty horsey groups started their campaigns and the 'onslaught' of plastic tracks blossomed in the name of being more Equine friendly, cheaper to maintain, weather resistant, yadda, yadda, yadda. None of which were true or had any verifiable studies done prior or since installation. Basically, the "Blue Bloods" knew they could put Gobalization on a fast track (pun intended) if they could put in a surface acceptable to European Racing. Improving existing dirt surfaces were never going to be an option. The cost of maintaining, and the longevity of grass surfaces were unacceptable. Besides funds spent for improving existing surfaces wouldn't find their way to the Blue LLC group.

Now for the final truth. All the above is driven by the Big Money maker, Breeding. That's how the Blue group visualizes reaping the million of Dollars and Euros in Gobalization. Folks this not a conspiracy. Rather it's the implementation of a Global business strategy. The only thing is, the customers don't want it or like it. Keep up the noise Mr and Mrs Handicapper/America. Eventually the cooks in the kitchen might get the message. :ThmbUp:

[cj's dad]

Another thought regarding asbestos and its' related disease mesothelioma (sp).

In the aftermath of WWII, many ships of the Liberty & Victory class, C3's and C4's were sent to the mothball fleet and in the '60's were "converted" from 400' to 500' to 600' to 700' container vessels. The overhaul/rehab of these vessels and the air contamination brought aboutfrom asbestos removal afflicted many shipyard workers with the above mentioned disease at various levels of toxicity (right word?), up to and including a miserable death. Described by one victim via his wife during a trial in which I was an plaintiffs' witness that the victim, her husband, felt as if he were drowning.

My point in relating the above is that it took 30-40 years until the effects of asbestos in the workplace manifested itself in workers. Has anyone from the racing industry studied the long term effects of exposure to this "fake" surface on the trainers, backstretch workers, jocks, gate crew, starters, fans, etc...... I seriously doubt it. How would they? I would think that if in fact it is dangerous to be exposed to this "unnatural" mix of dirt, rubber, plastic, etc... it will not be known for years from now.

[Bruddah]

Good point Daddy'O. Those small fibres reported to fly around could be a manifested trajedy in years to come. :(

[njcurveball]

I talked to several trainers who have run at Woodbine and the majority of them do not care for it with many of their horses developing all manner of new injuries (usually HIND END) and a few scoped to discover balls of the crap stuck down the bronchi of their animals.

Handicappers dislike it, horsemen dislike it......Strange WHY IS IT THERE?

I give you one out of two here. Real handicappers LOVE it. But your other point is well taken as one of the selling points was the kickback and a "salesman" named Michael Dickinson was telling people that jocks see clouds just "disintegrate" before it hits them on this stuff. Perhaps he meant he sees them disintegrate up the horses noses. ;)

Well at least it is nice to read a post about racing from you. Keep up the good work. :ThmbUp:

[CincyHorseplayer]

The Breeders Cup needs to be Friday,Saturday,and Sunday.We have 3 surfaces and no true champions exist muddling unless you set it into divisions.Synthetics have achieved their antithesis=it doesn't level the playing field,it clouds the view.

Personally I'm waiting for 4 and a half furlong races on snow for dogs to be instated.Palin has been ringing my email box since the election for that.

[slewis]

My My.....

Everyone's starting to catch on........


To think 6 mo's ago people were telling me my rants against the blue bloods were ridiculous.

One guy even posted that without Dinny Phipps, I wouldn't have a job...:lol:

Who's going to be the first unfortunate jock to come down with a serious respiratory illness/disease caused by inhailing ground rubber and carpet fiber dust.

I know, it's on the FDA's list of approved nutritional suppliments.:bang:

Of course, there's no hidden agenda....
I'm just the kooky guy on PA.

[Tom]

I guess the airborne HORSE DO DO over the years hasn't been a problem.:rolleyes:

[FenceBored]

I guess the airborne HORSE DO DO over the years hasn't been a problem.:rolleyes:

Of course not, Tom. It's all natural, so it must be good for you. Plus, it reduces colds. Nobody wants to stand close enough to you to give you one. Or is it the urine smell after cleaning a bunch of stalls that has that effect?

[robert99]

Another thought regarding asbestos and its' related disease mesothelioma (sp).

In the aftermath of WWII, many ships of the Liberty & Victory class, C3's and C4's were sent to the mothball fleet and in the '60's were "converted" from 400' to 500' to 600' to 700' container vessels. The overhaul/rehab of these vessels and the air contamination brought aboutfrom asbestos removal afflicted many shipyard workers with the above mentioned disease at various levels of toxicity (right word?), up to and including a miserable death. Described by one victim via his wife during a trial in which I was an plaintiffs' witness that the victim, her husband, felt as if he were drowning.

My point in relating the above is that it took 30-40 years until the effects of asbestos in the workplace manifested itself in workers. Has anyone from the racing industry studied the long term effects of exposure to this "fake" surface on the trainers, backstretch workers, jocks, gate crew, starters, fans, etc...... I seriously doubt it. How would they? I would think that if in fact it is dangerous to be exposed to this "unnatural" mix of dirt, rubber, plastic, etc... it will not be known for years from now.


Silicosis has been studied for decades and there are safe regular exposure levels set in USA and Europe for fine silicas (sands). All weather mixtures have been tested and approved as being nowhere near the unsafe particle size limits.

http://www.upmc.com/healthAtoZ/Pages/HealthLibrary.aspx?chunkiid=180075

[Imriledup]

The day a rider gets hospitalized with a serious condition from these tracks will be the beginning of the end for them. I can't wait, i hope i live long enough to be able to bet real dirt tracks again in California.


Until then, my money goes elsewhere.

Are you listening California?

[andymays]

The day a rider gets hospitalized with a serious condition from these tracks will be the beginning of the end for them. I can't wait, i hope i live long enough to be able to bet real dirt tracks again in California.


Until then, my money goes elsewhere.

Are you listening California?


Take a look at the opening day entries at Del Mar. The worst card in my lifetime for a opening day. California racing may not be here in a few years if nothing changes.

[Imriledup]

Take a look at the opening day entries at Del Mar. The worst card in my lifetime for a opening day. California racing may not be here in a few years if nothing changes.

They've already cut back at Hol to 4 day weeks and at DMR to 5 day weeks and they can't fill fields.

I was discussing this with another horseplayer today about Poly at 'Mar and i said that anyone who goes there opening week with the idea that they are going to look at the racing form and bet horses who looked sharp on paper at Hollywood are in for a rude awakening. What those horses show on paper means absolutely nothing at the seaside oval.

[andicap]

I hear through the scuttlebutt in back stretch talk that MANY of the leading tracks that put in Poly have, AS BIG Investor's IN THAT COMPANY, many of the big wigs who run those courses. Much akin to the governor who quietly owns a good portion of the contracting company that is putting in the state highway.


Wow!!! That is some evidence to convict track owners -- "scuttlebutt in back stretch talk." And we certainly know how reliable backstretch rumors are. I mean, look at all the horses bet down based on backstretch scuttlebeat and making all those workers rich.

Now, I'm certainly NOT a defender of the powers that be in racing --- I'm a populist at heart. And I would certainly believe the conspiracy theories being floated on this thread. (And as a former strong backer of poly, I'm coming around to the anti-plastic crowd based largely on trainer's complaints about injuries to their horses.)

BUT, in America you need evidence to convict an individial or a group of people. Those charges are potentially libelous since readers can easily identify the track management who approved the poly experiment. And "scuttlebeat" has not qualified as reliable testimony in any court I have seen -- including the court of public opinion. And wasn't poly approved in California based on the state racing board's decision? Do they have investments in polytrack companies? Are we going to libel them too?

Now if I was an enterprising investigative reporter, I would certainly pursue this line of thought. But any journalist who printed this rubbish without any proof would be fired at once -- as would his editor.

( The other anti-poly line -- that the industry reacted in a knee-jerk fashion to Congressional attacks on the sport. "Congress is about to regulate the sport -- Lets shut them up by putting poly on a few tracks to show we're being proactive." Saying the industry was playing politics without thinking through the issue is a legitimate response to a knee-jerk action and is the type of analysis that fills pundits columns every day. Industry leaders and lawmakers acting political without regard to whats right? Yeah, almost never happens.)

And why do I get the idea that the same people crying rivers of tears for the health of the jockeys are the same ones who scream bloody murder about how OSHA is ruining our country. Robert99 reported on a study that found no evidence that a major component of polytrack was harmful. Have you found any studies that show otherwise?

So before we start making like a mob out of that "Twilight Zone" episode and start stringing people up, how about we find some solid evidence to support these serious accusations that track officials invested in the poly companies?

[cj's dad]

Wow!!! the health of the jockeys are the same ones who scream bloody murder about how OSHA is ruining our country.

Andy-Andy-Andy !!:bang:

Some of us who are certified OSHA inspectors may have a diversity of opinion.

We are NOT ruining the country by enforcing standard labor practices; this does not mean however that we (me) cannot have opinions about poly crap surfaces. And one more thing- there is no way that long term effects can be measured until the "long term" comes into play.

[PaceAdvantage]

BUT, in America you need evidence to convict an individial or a group of people. Those charges are potentially libelous since readers can easily identify the track management who approved the poly experiment.How would it be libelous...I don't believe anyone is being accused of any criminal wrongdoing...

In fact, on Polytrack's own website, it states that Keeneland is in bed with Polytrack....unless I'm reading this wrong:

In July 2004, Keeneland (http://www.keeneland.com/)and Martin Collins International (http://www.martincollins.osx.co.uk/) created Martin Collins Surfaces and Footings to distribute PolytrackÒ surfaces in North and South America.

http://www.polytrack.com/lists/copy/copy.aspx?Page=About

[46zilzal]

Wow!!! That is some evidence to convict track owners -- "scuttlebutt in back stretch talk." And we certainly know how reliable backstretch rumors are.

Since my source gave me the evidence in confidence, I hesitate to divulge the name

[46zilzal]

Let me tell you of another "harmless" situation, that, over time, became the classic long term side effect taught to all in pharmacology classes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol

After WWII when many women were producing the boomer generation (of which I am a first year member) some women were having trouble maintaining the fetus. Along came wonder drug Diethylstilbestrol. Given the medication, these ladies had healthy babies.

Turn the clock ahead to the 70's: MANY of the female offspring of these supported pregnancies came down with a rare variety of adenocarcinoma. It took all that time for epidemiologists to realize that only the female offspring of these women, who took that drug demonstrated this nasty side effect.

With the toll on the bronchi of the horse population (physical blocking as SO FAR there is no other correlation other than just plugs) it is too early to note anything other than what has already been found: Blockage. That would be enough for me to question it's long term usage even without any further long lasting effects come to light.

[Greyfox]

Moan and groan about poly all you want,
the surface of any track is paramount in determining who can grab it and who can't.
Simply stated: Handicappers who aren't adapting to today's surface don't win.

Don't blame poly, blame yourself.
As I see it, the same principles that have always applied in racing, still apply.

[LottaKash]

A nation or people that live by the "Chemicals" will Die by the Chemicals......Anything less than "natural" is less than natural...Why should we want less ?...

"Synthetic dirt", it sounds weird to me. or to even consider it, much less to say it, given the amount of real dirt available...(greed perhaps, is stoking the boiler ?)

Given enough time, I believe, we will certainly see what "health horrors" lie ahead for the jockeys, and the horses...(no matter what the purveyors of this crap say)

best,

[andicap]

Andy-Andy-Andy !!:bang:

Some of us who are certified OSHA inspectors may have a diversity of opinion.

We are NOT ruining the country by enforcing standard labor practices; this does not mean however that we (me) cannot have opinions about poly crap surfaces. And one more thing- there is no way that long term effects can be measured until the "long term" comes into play.

You got me wrong, Dennis. I'm PRO-OSHA. I'm saying its inconsistent to be so concerned about the health of the jockeys but NOT about people in the workplace.

If we waited 20 years to see the "long-term" effects of every new drug, product, etc, than we wouldn't too many innovations on the market. Bio-drugs? Forget it. How long the government study the effects of low-cal sugar substitutes like aspertame and sucralose. Sure wasn't that long of a term.

There is evidence, as Robert99 pointed out that the silicosis fibers are safe. And no evidence yet to the contrary. And they've had the poly surfaces in other countries for a while with no reports of any long-term ill effects.

I agree, wholeheartedly the health of jockeys and horses should be monitored extremely closely with all kinds of tests to see what type of material might be building up in their lungs, bloodstream, etc. Somehow, though I doubt the industry has undertaken this type of research.


The mistake the industry made was in rushing to install poly in so many tracks at one time without waiting the see how it performed at a couple of tracks under different weather conditions.

In the U.K, there are no extremes of hot and cold that tracks like Woodbine, Turfway and in SoCAL have had to deal with. It rains a lot but usually not very heavily -- mainly lots of light or moderate showers or even drizzle. Nothing that would soak the surface

Clearly the U.S. racing industry failed to do its homework on the various poly surfaces.

[andicap]

How would it be libelous...I don't believe anyone is being accused of any criminal wrongdoing...

In fact, on Polytrack's own website, it states that Keeneland is in bed with Polytrack....unless I'm reading this wrong:

[/font][/color]

http://www.polytrack.com/lists/copy/copy.aspx?Page=About

46 is accusing track officials who put in poly of accepting kickbacks. Not sure about libel law -- he didnt name them specifically or individually so it might be OK legally. Or it might not be.

But morally it's indefensible.

And yes, on polytrack contractor's own site, they do say Keeneland is an investor. No one is trying to hide it. 46 suggests it's all a huge conspiracy, that the tracks and poly companies are working secretly behind the scenes to install the evil, demonic surface in every track in North America. (I use poly as all encompassing term for artificial surfaces)

Well, there can't be a secret conspiracy going on at Keeneland if it ain't a secret.

And furthermore, there are lots of tracks with NO poly surface. I happen to like betting Arlington and have even done well at Hollywood (tho the small field sizes are awful, but that's due more other issues with Calif. racing like workman's comp, etc. Keeneland had poly this year -- by my count poly fields averaged about 9.6 entrants. Yes, the purses are high but the poly didn't keep trainers away).

If you hate the poly surface you are lucky: There are many many more tracks that run dirt than poly and no one is rushing to add poly surfaces anymore.

I'm not arguing in favor of poly. Trainers report a lot more hind injuries. That's bad. Clearly tracks have not learned how to deal with the surface in extreme weather -- cold, hot and very rainy. That's bad. The surface hasn't proved the savior of California racing.

But lets have some solid evidence --- other than a couple of people I know said it -- before we convict industry officials for accepting graft.

[KingChas]

Simply stated: Handicappers who aren't adapting to today's surface don't win.



This is always the reply to people against poly.
Speaking for myself as a fig maker,I have had no problem converting the figs to poly.
The problem I have is the poly races bore the hell out of me.
Small fields,small odds,same old group of horses taking turns beating each other.
This is definately not a handicapping issue,granted, it has made it harder to figure out the 1st time dirters and 1st time polyers in stakes races.
But handicapping poly tracks alone is not that difficult. ;)

[slewis]

I have not seen stats how successful the public is at picking the winner each race, the bottom line here is that it (synthetics) are CLEARLY not working.

It's not working from a betting perspective (handle) and it's CLEARLY not working from a safety perspective.

Im glad for California racing...they get everything they deserve for even considering this crap....and for the politicians who Im certain were greased in some way shape or form to MANDATE that all tracks race with a synthetic surface, I hope it is someday exposed what those roles were and they're political careers die a slow death.

So if anyone with any brains and power in California racing is reading this, I'll be nice and show you the fastest way back on your feet.

1) Bite the bullet...tell the NTRA safety alliance to F-off (but wait till after the BC :lol: ) and make a phone call to the lovely woman who runs Tampa Bay Downs.

2) Ask her if you can send a racetrack consultant to Tampa to talk to her track superintendant, take samples of the surface back to Southern Cal, and get a report of the complete track composition, from base to cushion.

3) Rip up the poly and save some samples to make a little museum, kinda like they did years ago at Calder when they put a funky surface down that didn't work.

4) Dont deviate from it (The Tampa model) and "soup it up" in an attempt to get those ridiculously fast times you fools out there crave.
If you need to see bad horses run 6F in 109 each day, move the teletimer trip forward 100 feet, you'll fake everyone out.

The weather in Tampa is similar to LA and TBD is one of the safest surfaces around to race....


At least that will get you started in the right direction.

5) Fire all racetrack management who have experience in the "Thoroughbred Industry" and hire new management who have experience in the "GAMBLING INDUSTRY".

[senortout]

I just glanced at the entries for opening day at Del Mar...looks o.k. to me!

Only one fairly short field...msw for open class animals(not state-bred) with a nice purse($51,000) Plus, a full field for the Oceanside, the normal opening day stakes?????

Don't see a problem....don't invent a problem if it ain't there...

senortout

[Steve 'StatMan']

I remember it was clearly in the racing news when Keeneland decided to install Polytrack and bought into the company, when they installed it on their Training Track, Turfway (which they own) and their main track. This was even in Bill Finley's book within the last year about Synthetic Track Racing.

[robert99]

You got me wrong, Dennis. I'm PRO-OSHA. I'm saying its inconsistent to be so concerned about the health of the jockeys but NOT about people in the workplace.

If we waited 20 years to see the "long-term" effects of every new drug, product, etc, than we wouldn't too many innovations on the market. Bio-drugs? Forget it. How long the government study the effects of low-cal sugar substitutes like aspertame and sucralose. Sure wasn't that long of a term.

There is evidence, as Robert99 pointed out that the silicosis fibers are safe. And no evidence yet to the contrary. And they've had the poly surfaces in other countries for a while with no reports of any long-term ill effects.

I agree, wholeheartedly the health of jockeys and horses should be monitored extremely closely with all kinds of tests to see what type of material might be building up in their lungs, bloodstream, etc. Somehow, though I doubt the industry has undertaken this type of research.


The mistake the industry made was in rushing to install poly in so many tracks at one time without waiting the see how it performed at a couple of tracks under different weather conditions.

In the U.K, there are no extremes of hot and cold that tracks like Woodbine, Turfway and in SoCAL have had to deal with. It rains a lot but usually not very heavily -- mainly lots of light or moderate showers or even drizzle. Nothing that would soak the surface

Clearly the U.S. racing industry failed to do its homework on the various poly surfaces.


Silicosis damage to health has been studied for decades as miners in heavy rock and coal mines worked for prolonged periods without any mask protection in atmospheres full of the stuff. In middle age they often suffered severe illness and death. The key criteria is the particle size - so you do not have to wait around or study anything much except the particle size and the elimination of such particles in industry by ventilation, filtration and masks. If too big it does not block the small breathing channels in the lungs nor irritate things to cause cancers.
Polytrack particles and fibres are large and working exposure times relatively minute for jockeys / horses but more exposure for maintenance crews.

In EU any manufacturer of new materials has to get prior approval and certification from the various HSE before any use, else they are breaking the law. I understand that certification has been done in UK and Australia. USA who knows?

Of course, there is also silica in dirt and there is no validity in not comparing the particles ingested in dirt versus polytrack.

It is not true that UK polytrack is not subject to some extreme ranges.
Winters can be down to 15 degrees of frost some nights and summer temperatures reach 95F. As far as rain goes, Southwell had so much torrential rain that the whole of the AW track was once washed away.

[Robert Fischer]

of Course, whenever possible, the tracks had their buddies hooked up. As PA said, I thought this was open and understood by all.




A lot of disdain for the synthetics sounds like sour grapes.


Personally my favorite racing is dirt racing between 9 and 12 furlongs. 10 furlongs on DIRT is a nice Classic distance for me, and I find the aesthetics to be wonderful there.

Synthetic racing is naturally an inferior turf racing product.

That is to say, If you don't have artificial purse rewards, the better horses will stay on turf than run on that training track junk. At times with a balanced purse situation you see this on a track like Woodbine.

However, when artificial purse sizes make the price right there are some good races that can be more dynamic than dirt races. Even my Classic distance DIRT races can suffer if the field is not competitive and with hot enough pace, because they favor speed - where as the synthetic version makes up some for it's awful aesthetics by "artificially?" creating a more fair and competitive race by it's own properties!

Last year's Breeders Cup Classic was easily the best horse race in North America for 2008. What a great great race that was. Henry The Navigator was such a top class horse and we saw Curlin and Raven's Pass -that is the peak of what the "SPORT" portion of this game is all about.
That race proved that the world's dirt AND turf stars could compete against each other, which is the true strength of the synthetic surfaces.
As much as I love my DIRT (2010!) , they almost have to make an annual non-conflicting $5MILLION race on pro-ride or cushion track or Keeneland's poly to bring the great turf horses of the UK Ireland and France together with America;s stars.

[fmolf]

of Course, whenever possible, the tracks had their buddies hooked up. As PA said, I thought this was open and understood by all.




A lot of disdain for the synthetics sounds like sour grapes.


Personally my favorite racing is dirt racing between 9 and 12 furlongs. 10 furlongs on DIRT is a nice Classic distance for me, and I find the aesthetics to be wonderful there.

Synthetic racing is naturally an inferior turf racing product.

That is to say, If you don't have artificial purse rewards, the better horses will stay on turf than run on that training track junk. At times with a balanced purse situation you see this on a track like Woodbine.

However, when artificial purse sizes make the price right there are some good races that can be more dynamic than dirt races. Even my Classic distance DIRT races can suffer if the field is not competitive and with hot enough pace, because they favor speed - where as the synthetic version makes up some for it's awful aesthetics by "artificially?" creating a more fair and competitive race by it's own properties!

Last year's Breeders Cup Classic was easily the best horse race in North America for 2008. What a great great race that was. Henry The Navigator was such a top class horse and we saw Curlin and Raven's Pass -that is the peak of what the "SPORT" portion of this game is all about.
That race proved that the world's dirt AND turf stars could compete against each other, which is the true strength of the synthetic surfaces.
As much as I love my DIRT (2010!) , they almost have to make an annual non-conflicting $5MILLION race on pro-ride or cushion track or Keeneland's poly to bring the great turf horses of the UK Ireland and France together with America;s stars.
All any racing executive has to do is look at what poly has done to california racing on a daily basis.I disagree about the breeders cup.I di not feel the racing was extrordinary. They got their poly races for the best horses in the world.Now their purses will need to be cut and their win and your in is a joke!In my opinion they only instuted this to assure themselves they would not have any small fields due to the poly.Trainers and owners alike will be staying away from the daily cards in droves in the coming years so say goodbye to california racing.

[cj]

All any racing executive has to do is look at what poly has done to california racing on a daily basis.I disagree about the breeders cup.I di not feel the racing was extrordinary. They got their poly races for the best horses in the world.Now their purses will need to be cut and their win and your in is a joke!In my opinion they only instuted this to assure themselves they would not have any small fields due to the poly.Trainers and owners alike will be staying away from the daily cards in droves in the coming years so say goodbye to california racing.

I would have to disagree. As a fan, I hate synthetic surfaces thought I don't mind betting them. That said, the state of California racing was pretty sorry even before the new surfaces were installed. If they had kept dirt, they'd be in the same boat today.

[castaway01]

All any racing executive has to do is look at what poly has done to california racing on a daily basis.I disagree about the breeders cup.I di not feel the racing was extrordinary. They got their poly races for the best horses in the world.Now their purses will need to be cut and their win and your in is a joke!In my opinion they only instuted this to assure themselves they would not have any small fields due to the poly.Trainers and owners alike will be staying away from the daily cards in droves in the coming years so say goodbye to california racing.

Field sizes were miniscule before the change to poly and they were small after the change. Polytrack didn't "ruin" anything---racing was bad there before and bad afterwards. The real problem was the land the tracks are built on is worth a lot more than the property owners can make from just racing. That was never going to change unless they raced on solid gold, so inevitably the tracks were going to close.

[46zilzal]

Woodbine is not much like any of the other Poly crap track as it remains earlier than all of them.

[cj]

Woodbine is not much like any of the other Poly crap track as it remains earlier than all of them.

Hey, you are coming around! It is "earlier" than all of them, but it is not a dirt track.

[slewis]

Field sizes were miniscule before the change to poly and they were small after the change. Polytrack didn't "ruin" anything---racing was bad there before and bad afterwards. The real problem was the land the tracks are built on is worth a lot more than the property owners can make from just racing. That was never going to change unless they raced on solid gold, so inevitably the tracks were going to close.


Hey Castaway,

How much do you think the land is worth that incompasses Central Park in NYC?

Do you think politicians with real estate ties wouldn't love to get the mitts on all that "wasted" park land?

You see this is the problem that Ive argued for some time.... Privately owned tracks will continue to struggle until they shut their doors because the business model (a term ping ponged in the latest NYRA renewal) will eventually crash unless Govt provides help and subsidies.

Considering how heavily regulated the industry is, and how each state has a heavy hand in the cookie jar (rightfully so since it's primary revenue is derived from GAMBLING), unless the polits accept racing as a cultural and historic necessity and legislate as such, the sport will continue to crumble.

The fact that the field sizes in California were small prior to AND after Poly is a result of bad decisions and poor management... AND FOOLISH GOVT INTERVENTION.

California racing needs a change in management, a five yr game plan overhaul, and a boost from the politicians that helped bury it in the first place.

All of which are unlikely to happen.

[PaceAdvantage]

46 is accusing track officials who put in poly of accepting kickbacks. Not sure about libel law -- he didnt name them specifically or individually so it might be OK legally. Or it might not be.Kickbacks? I didn't read anything about kickbacks....

I read this:

MANY of the leading tracks that put in Poly have, AS BIG Investor's IN THAT COMPANY, many of the big wigs who run those courses.Investor = chance of profit OR/AND chance of LOSS.

Kickback = guaranteed profit...:lol:

We have at least once confirmed leading track (Keeneland) that is an investor in Polytrack company, so I suppose I'm safe as far as libel is concerned...this whole "MANY" thing that 46 talks about is simple hyperbole...;)

[46zilzal]

We have at least once confirmed leading track (Keeneland) that is an investor in Polytrack company, so I suppose I'm safe as far as libel is concerned...this whole "MANY" thing that 46 talks about is simple hyperbole...;)
No it's not if you heard what trainers informed me regarding some of the owners and the way they jammed it down the throats of the horsemen without much of a discussion and the feedback has been routinely negative BUT the fat cats need to make their money.

[castaway01]

Hey Castaway,

How much do you think the land is worth that incompasses Central Park in NYC?

Do you think politicians with real estate ties wouldn't love to get the mitts on all that "wasted" park land?

You see this is the problem that Ive argued for some time.... Privately owned tracks will continue to struggle until they shut their doors because the business model (a term ping ponged in the latest NYRA renewal) will eventually crash unless Govt provides help and subsidies.

Considering how heavily regulated the industry is, and how each state has a heavy hand in the cookie jar (rightfully so since it's primary revenue is derived from GAMBLING), unless the polits accept racing as a cultural and historic necessity and legislate as such, the sport will continue to crumble.

The fact that the field sizes in California were small prior to AND after Poly is a result of bad decisions and poor management... AND FOOLISH GOVT INTERVENTION.

California racing needs a change in management, a five yr game plan overhaul, and a boost from the politicians that helped bury it in the first place.

All of which are unlikely to happen.

I can't argue with any of that, except I don't get the point about Central Park---I didn't say I thought the land was wasted. I was looking at it purely from a business point of view. The California tracks weren't government owned, so the owners were free to sell once the zoning issues were resolved. My point was just that all the stuff about "Polytrack killed California racing" is incorrect because it was dying when they ran on dirt and it continues to die now. Poly didn't save it, but it didn't kill it either.

[Bruddah]

I can't argue with any of that, except I don't get the point about Central Park---I didn't say I thought the land was wasted. I was looking at it purely from a business point of view. The California tracks weren't government owned, so the owners were free to sell once the zoning issues were resolved. My point was just that all the stuff about "Polytrack killed California racing" is incorrect because it was dying when they ran on dirt and it continues to die now. Poly didn't save it, but it didn't kill it either.


When the value of the property (acreage) becomes more valuable than it's current use, you can always be sure it will eventually be sold and put into service doing something else. There are no "Sacred Cows" in these scenarios. Because of the large tracts of land available, it has always been the case, when it comes to race tracks. When profits started falling in Horse racing Entreprneurs will always develop a more profitable business model. (land use) Look at all the examples of this from Gulf Stream, Keystone, Garden State Park, Aksarben and many many others. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that this some new phenomenm. It's just a business cycle with old formulas and motives. As they say, they aren't building anymore land.